Full Comment - Trudeau isn’t being taken seriously about India

00:00:00.000 did india assassinate a canadian citizen on canadian soil is canada harboring terrorists

00:00:10.560 who strike out against india from within our borders these are the competing claims that

00:00:15.780 are at the center of an international diplomatic spat between canada and india

00:00:20.220 spat seems like too light of a word but i can't think of a better one that fits with

00:00:24.620 the usually calm diplomatic language used between allies and fellow democracies hello i'm brian

00:00:30.800 lily and this is the full comment podcast canada's relationship with india is perhaps at its lowest

00:00:36.040 point it was already at a low point before justin trudeau made the explosive allegations on monday

00:00:42.120 that he has evidence that india may have been involved in the june murder of a bc sikh activist

00:00:47.400 but now they're sinking faster than we can measure our next guest is someone who has great insight

00:00:53.280 into the strained relations between our two countries but before i get to him i want to

00:00:57.440 remind you to hit that subscribe button on whatever app or device you're listening to us on if you're

00:01:02.320 listening to us via one of post media's websites you can subscribe via apple google amazon spotify and

00:01:08.740 more ujal dasanj is no stranger to the oft strained relationship between canada and india he was born

00:01:16.760 in india's punjab region in 1947 he first moved to the united kingdom in his late teens before coming

00:01:22.880 to canada at the age of 21 he was a successful lawyer the mayor of vancouver the ndp premier of

00:01:28.900 british columbia before moving on to be a liberal mp and federal health minister under paul martin

00:01:33.820 he's also been the target of sikh extremists himself in this country and was once severely

00:01:39.720 beaten in an attack despite being sikh himself all because he spoke out against the extremist position

00:01:45.140 i can't think of a better person to help unpack all the complex issues surrounding what is at the top of

00:01:51.920 the news this week other than ujal dasanj ujal thanks for the time today good to be with you

00:01:56.800 um i i'm not even sure where to begin here and we've got the the low point of relations we've got

00:02:06.520 the explosive allegations so maybe let's start there uh the prime minister has so far said that

00:02:13.580 there's credible evidence of a potential link that's not exactly definitive language it's somewhat

00:02:20.500 diplomatic still and he hasn't shared any of the information at this point as you and i speak

00:02:25.700 publicly but i'm still inclined to believe him but hoping to see something what's your takeaway over

00:02:33.440 the last few days well whether one is likely to believe um the prime minister or not if you are a

00:02:40.740 citizen of canada the prime minister stands up in the house of commons and says uh something as serious

00:02:46.500 as he did say you must believe him you have no choice uh but beyond that then you begin to wonder

00:02:54.020 uh what prompted him to make such a serious statement at the time now somebody told me that some newspaper

00:03:01.020 was going to come out with an article saying that uh and therefore he had to preempt that um you know

00:03:08.340 statesmen or women don't make statements uh as grievous as this one was um just to preempt um a news column

00:03:19.960 or um you know whatever was going to come out so that puzzles me while the rcmp are still going around

00:03:27.600 showing cctv footage to people saying tell us who these people are those are the suspects um

00:03:34.340 uh he says he has credible evidence i mean that that baffles me uh if you have credible evidence why

00:03:42.420 is the rcmp running around trying to get people to identify the possible culpris um either you say

00:03:50.980 you have the evidence and place it before the house or you know be a statesman and deal with um what was

00:03:59.220 until the other day a friendly country yeah a faulty democracy but you know democracies are messy um

00:04:06.420 uh so deal with a friendly country in a way that's uh conducive to uh having good relations with each

00:04:13.240 other and that didn't happen the man that uh justin trudeau has said india was involved in

00:04:20.900 the murder of and if that's the case then i'll call it an assassination because it's politically

00:04:27.080 motivated was a man named hardeep singh nijjar he was declared a terrorist by the state of india but

00:04:35.480 they have a different definition of terrorism than we do we the evidence wasn't tried in court but they

00:04:41.460 obviously have a very distinct view of them um is india at the point of trying to deal with

00:04:48.960 calistani extremists by conducting extrajudicial executions and i ask in the context of there's a

00:04:58.560 a canadian citizen um mr rana uh twar hussein rana i believe is his full name he's in the united states

00:05:08.380 facing extradition he's a canadian but he's in the united states india is trying to extradite him

00:05:14.180 for what they say was his role in the 2008 mumbai attack which was a horrific one killed

00:05:20.280 close to 200 people so if they're going to extradite in one case um are they going to you

00:05:28.920 know pull off executions in another you know how how vexed are they by the issue of calistani

00:05:35.040 extremists well they're quite vexed that's a given because in india i was in the job in may

00:05:41.160 there is no sign of khalistan movement in punjab i went to my village it's a big village there was

00:05:47.060 not a single saffron turban to be found um so it's quite vexing for them um but you know i was

00:05:54.180 listening to an interview of uh mr dullat who who used to be uh head of the indian intelligence agency

00:06:01.720 raw um and he made a point of saying that the allegations coming from canada were bizarre because

00:06:09.380 it is not the culture of raw to go across borders to kill people at least it wasn't when he was the

00:06:15.800 head so i can actually believe under modhi who um uh you know uh prized himself for being macho modhi

00:06:26.020 in international affairs uh i can believe that that there's a possibility that the culture of the

00:06:33.640 indian intelligence may have changed under him and it's quite possible uh that uh that indian um

00:06:41.060 agents did as alleged by the prime minister i you know i believe my prime minister because

00:06:47.660 ultimately you have to believe your leaders um in these kinds of serious issues uh but

00:06:54.980 you know beyond that i don't know what to make of it

00:06:58.040 we're kind of skating past a bunch of of serious issues not drilling down on them yet because as i

00:07:06.640 said there's so much to discuss here you mentioned there's no sign of support in punjab for khalistan

00:07:13.660 while you were there um india has mr nijar was obviously heavily involved in the sikh separatist

00:07:22.640 movement calling for a khalistani homeland there are claims that he was training people um in

00:07:29.220 military activities outside of the area of mission bc that india has claimed that he was involved in

00:07:36.660 various terrorist attacks going back to 2007 2016 so this is this is not a uh a man without controversy

00:07:46.980 a man without uh some problematic aspects but he's still a canadian citizen and and so

00:07:53.620 the the idea of an extra judicial killing an execution um is one that if there is evidence we

00:08:03.840 we can't just walk past it and say well india is a big player on the world stage now india is a

00:08:08.940 powerful economy we have to get on board with them um you know the prime minister trudeau um

00:08:15.480 under questioning from journalists at the other day did say look we we want to keep working with

00:08:21.260 india but they have to take this seriously um is it what's your take on on the idea of defending

00:08:28.820 uh against someone like nijar with all the accusations against them from being executed by a foreign

00:08:35.380 government or i think that that prime minister is within his rights and we are within our rights as

00:08:41.180 canadians to to ask those questions of india and say why did you do this and you know cuff up uh the

00:08:47.860 facts and and deal with it reasonably i think that that's all uh that's all appropriate um and but my

00:08:55.300 you know suspicion is grounded in the fact that mr niger wasn't um a general of a liberation army

00:09:02.960 i mean he was he was uh you know if i might say a minor player in the international arena uh why

00:09:10.320 would a country of 1.4 billion go across borders to take him out uh unless they wanted to um set an

00:09:18.660 example for others now that is a possibility uh because he was a thorn in their side along with this

00:09:27.100 mr panu from across the border in the u.s um and and you know uh that doesn't justify it but that may

00:09:35.020 explain it which do you which theory do you put more weight in that india would have been behind

00:09:42.480 this or that this was gangland activity rival factions um you know i i have no facts more than

00:09:50.980 what's publicly available it is quite possible that indian operatives made it happen uh and that's

00:09:59.540 condemnable but it is also quite likely that this is the result of the internecine fighting um within

00:10:08.020 the khalistani ranks if you remember mr malik the air india accused who was acquitted he had been

00:10:15.380 weaned away from khalistan by modi and his supporters he went back to india was allowed to go

00:10:21.460 and sang praises of mr modi and met with the indian intelligence for several hours um and that fact

00:10:29.440 became known in the community and he was knocked off in broad daylight now he and mr niger had a

00:10:38.060 running feud um because mr mr niger called him a traitor to the idea of khalistan publicly before

00:10:45.420 malik was assassinated and they also had a dispute on whether or not you know mr malik was allowed to

00:10:54.260 publish or print copies of the holy scripture on a machine that he had brought from india uh indian

00:11:01.000 religious authorities told malik to hand over the machine to mr niger and there is a dispute in the

00:11:07.100 court going on about that so you know there was speculation within the community that this is tit for

00:11:12.940 tat uh that mr niger was knocked off on father's day and uh mr malik's three sons uh that was a for for

00:11:22.400 for them that was a gift for their dead father i mean that's you know that's the other thing that's

00:11:28.120 going on in in the community i don't know what the truth is uh you know i i wish i did but but you you

00:11:34.040 did say earlier the rcmp are still going around with photos is that since monday that the rcmp still

00:11:40.180 asking people who are these men oh absolutely that's what i was told wow

00:11:46.680 no no you tell me that the prime minister stands up in the in the you know in the highest court in

00:11:56.020 the land in a sense which is which is the the house of house of commons yes uh and and and accuses

00:12:03.860 another country of assassinating a canadian citizen i mean those are serious charges and he hasn't given

00:12:11.100 an iota of evidence not to me not to the public not even to the leader of the opposition

00:12:17.100 uh mr palaev said that uh he was told no more than the prime minister said in his public statement

00:12:24.340 um same with mr singh now jagmeet singh is going to absolutely go after the modi government that he

00:12:31.980 has a history there as well there's a lot of a lot of histories and politics involved he is um uh you

00:12:38.860 know i have i've seen videos of him going around when he became the leader where he

00:12:43.480 was seen speaking at a sovereignty conference for khalistan supporting the idea of khalistan so he's a

00:12:51.260 committed khalistani one of his friends in one of the documentaries i saw said that he and mr singh

00:12:58.200 went into politics to litigate 1984 uh went into canadian politics to litigate 1984 so it's you know

00:13:05.800 that's a given and uh and so you know there is no uh trust between the governments of two countries

00:13:13.780 right now because because modi sees trudeau uh as surrounded by khalistan he's including mr jagmeet

00:13:22.540 singh and he has a history with khalistan he's of course during his leadership and beyond in government

00:13:28.160 um and and our prime minister uh for legitimate reasons uh doesn't think that mr modi is a democrat

00:13:37.000 i mean because mr modi has a history both going back to 2002 the gujarat riots and now the lynching

00:13:45.160 of the dalits the untouchables lynching of the muslims and and the lynching of the christian minority in

00:13:52.500 the northeast and he remains silent so we have legitimate concerns about how mr modi functions

00:13:58.700 um and therefore you know if you if you're looking at the larger question of the overall relationship

00:14:05.680 between canada and india i must admit i must confess to you that that if you want any improvement you

00:14:12.600 have to actually let look beyond the current regimes the current heads of the two states uh and then

00:14:19.900 hopefully our relationship might improve uh modi is um as you say not exactly a democrat

00:14:27.000 at all times he leads the world's largest democracy but you know he he looks he looks away at certain

00:14:34.760 things that he shouldn't be looking away from or he he's taken india which is supposed to be a secular

00:14:39.640 country turned it into a hindu nationalist state that that's what he's trying to do uh unfortunately

00:14:47.740 you know that's not that's not true yet but you know i hope that that uh you know something happens

00:14:53.940 between now and the next election to to take him away from that road that he's taken i was arguing in a

00:15:02.160 arguing in in a column in the toronto sun the other day that the prime minister the reason he needs to put

00:15:08.320 forward some evidence is that it would force modi's hand he doesn't need to display the whole case but if he

00:15:16.520 put forward some evidence yeah it would assure the public it would force modi's hand to respond

00:15:23.180 and it might get some of our allies who have not been running to our defense they put out statements of

00:15:30.480 deep concern okay well that that's not much um but it might have them standing up and and saying to

00:15:38.880 the modi regime look you've you've got to deal with this absolutely uh i think that that he can

00:15:45.120 actually help uh by doing that uh and and our allies would come to our aid uh more openly perhaps more

00:15:53.500 aggressively he can also help the situation in another way i know that that all of the canadian

00:16:00.500 politicians uh without any sort of exception that i know publicly um always take um uh refuge under the

00:16:09.840 rubric of freedom of expression when they defend khalistani's right to demand khalistan in canada

00:16:15.900 sitting in canada but i've never seen any one of them even before modi i've never seen any one of

00:16:22.920 them going to the length of saying hey folks you have the right to demand khalistan but we tell you

00:16:29.840 as a friendly democracy as a friendly country we don't support the dismemberment of india nobody's ever

00:16:37.280 said that yeah you know i i think political leaders who are heads of government have an obligation

00:16:43.740 if you want alliances in the world if you want cooperation in the world then you have to take a

00:16:50.360 stand if you believe you are secular and you don't even oppose people wanting to dismember india based on

00:16:57.900 religion again i mean i and that boggles my mind let's talk about this um because it's you know india

00:17:09.420 is accusing trudeau of playing vote bank politics and in my experience every political party given an

00:17:18.220 opportunity to play vote bank politics with ethnic or religious groups will do so you may have

00:17:24.080 participated in that in the past in in your electoral uh uh history which i'll but i tried not to but i

00:17:31.720 may it's it's but in in playing footsies with a group that wants to break up an ally that would be

00:17:41.940 akin to um you know in another country um giving support to quebec separatists that that would anger us

00:17:50.520 well uh well um it will it will anger us but the fact is that they um diluted the national security

00:17:59.340 report several years ago that clearly uh pointed a finger at the khalasani extremism in canada

00:18:07.040 as a threat as a credible threat uh and uh and so you know like why would you do that

00:18:15.060 you're you're trying you're trying to play partisan politics or vote bank politics as you call it

00:18:21.520 um on national security questions that's unforgivable and mr trudeau has done that so we know mr trudeau

00:18:29.540 has played footsie with the khalistanis you know i'm thinking back to um other uh examples of

00:18:41.060 you know ethnic and religious strife from other countries coming here you know we arrested people

00:18:47.000 that funded the ira back in the 80s and 90s we prosecuted them um you know the americans did the

00:18:54.920 same and that did not destroy uh ronald reagan uh in the 80s being loved by ireland in fact every

00:19:02.700 american president since kennedy seems to go over to ireland and get fed it but they'll still crack down

00:19:08.900 on on on people doing fundraising for terrorism we can do both at once and and not destroy relations

00:19:16.960 can't we we we can but we haven't done that in canada we haven't done that old trudeau senior

00:19:23.120 trudeau didn't do that you know in the government of india was asking uh the the the canadian government

00:19:29.280 at that time to uh to extradite uh tilvinder pramar who later on went uh to um you know to obviously

00:19:38.100 down an airline um was eventually killed by india in india and uh so we we you know we we have a

00:19:45.820 history of not standing up particularly on this issue uh well i i read uh and i'm sure you're

00:19:53.540 familiar with this story but i read a piece quoting terry molesky's book and you know this few

00:19:59.160 journalists in in mainstream media in canada have written as much or broadcast as much on this as

00:20:04.760 and he detailed why the indian government had gone to the trudeau government in i think it was 1982

00:20:13.100 yeah and asked for the people who eventually masterminded the air india bombing yes they

00:20:20.340 wanted them extradited three years before the bombing happened yes and according to what terry

00:20:26.600 wrote they said no because of india wasn't deferential enough to the queen is that serious

00:20:32.240 i have no idea i've read terry's column as well i have no idea why i mean it's like you know i mean

00:20:39.240 we do actually behave like a banana republic sometimes uh that's why canada right now is not

00:20:47.780 taken seriously internationally that's why our allies aren't standing up with us um as robustly as

00:20:54.500 they should have do you do you get the sense that overall you said our allies aren't standing with us

00:21:00.780 do you get the sense that we're not just downgraded in the eyes of of india but of the united states

00:21:06.920 of the british of the australians and countries that should be standing with us oh i i i believe that's

00:21:14.020 the case if i may say so and i don't mean to denigrate our prime minister but um i think on the

00:21:20.640 international stage uh very few international leaders take would take mr trudeau seriously at

00:21:29.280 this moment very few uh i think i think his reputation was destroyed by his previous visit

00:21:35.860 to india he destroyed it himself now there was a lot of uh mockery and merriment in parts of the

00:21:44.960 canadian media uh on that trip with the more costume changes than a britney spears concert

00:21:50.660 but he um uh the indian media absolutely savaged him and and he appears to have been a target ever

00:21:58.920 since well that's i think partly because i think he made a cartoon of himself by making those changes

00:22:08.460 and you know trying to i mean for him it was like a holiday and the baranga dancing yeah i mean it's

00:22:15.120 like that's cartoonish i i just i don't i don't believe uh any serious uh international statesman or

00:22:23.080 stateswoman should or would do that all right um lujal i want to get into your experience with dealing

00:22:31.320 with uh sikh extremists um yourself when we come back after the break and and dive deeper into how

00:22:39.040 we repair this uh canada u.s or canada india relationship we'll talk more on that when we come

00:22:44.540 back religious and political extremism it's not something we're used to dealing with in this

00:22:50.580 country it's not something we think that we deal with but it does exist in this country and has for a

00:22:55.520 long time um ujal before you even entered politics you were uh the victim of an attack um and my

00:23:06.000 understanding is it was a a group of of young sikhs affiliated with uh an organization that carried out

00:23:12.400 other attacks talk to me about that that beating was it an attempt on your life or was it um you know

00:23:20.060 a few punches as a warning um i think it was an attempt on my life um the chap uh came with uh a

00:23:28.560 crowbar uh um a bolt at the end of it and thumped on my head several times um you know i was it was

00:23:37.460 evening i had two two uh briefcases in my hand i had a supreme court trial on monday morning and this

00:23:44.900 is friday night and uh this chap attacked me in the parking lot uh i didn't know him at that time

00:23:52.640 and i had footsteps so i heard them coming towards me i thought it was some young child that was playing

00:23:59.920 in the in the lane uh next to where my car was uh i only found out when the first uh first blow was

00:24:08.160 already on my head that it was somebody who had come to attack me and why why did they attack you

00:24:13.340 oh i had been getting threats um for a long time um that that they were going to kill me that they

00:24:21.680 were going to reform me that's their language um um that i should stop speaking out uh that i'm a

00:24:29.240 traitor to the sikhs so that kind of stuff because i was basically saying there should be no violence in

00:24:34.880 canada you know you have the right to ask for khalistan i have the right to say i don't support it

00:24:39.460 uh but there should be no violence either here or in india on these questions and uh at least i

00:24:45.700 don't support division of countries based on religion um and that was the debate and and the

00:24:51.860 other element of the debate was i was arguing that it had taken us a long time uh to actually gain

00:24:59.620 some equality gain some recognition as a thriving community and that these few hotheads who were

00:25:06.160 running around creating hit lists of the enemies and and hurting people and threatening them and

00:25:12.260 they were basically destroying our credibility as as a community in the larger society and they should

00:25:17.980 stop it um and the other reason i still spoke out was because i knew um vast majority i used to call

00:25:27.520 it the silent majority vast majority of the uh sikhs never supported uh a separate state in india

00:25:34.060 and they still don't and that uh you know that uh that i wanted people to know the canadians to

00:25:42.340 know one that was a fact two that not all sikhs are terrorists and violent so how has this become

00:25:51.780 a central issue in canadian politics uh because you know i i've looked at the the polling and the

00:25:58.600 studies as well i've looked at the votes you're right it it's not well supported

00:26:03.660 among sikhs in india um it's in fact it has no support not not just well supported and i've heard

00:26:12.320 single digit support in perhaps i mean like there's one you know everybody says here if you are a

00:26:19.820 khalistani you go to india and they're gonna mistreat you jail you i mean you have a khalistani member of

00:26:25.440 parliament sitting in the house of sitting in the the in parliament he's elected but he's kind of

00:26:31.600 useless yeah he gets elected because people know him he's old belongs to a great family uh so you

00:26:38.180 know india isn't uh it's not like as anti-democratic as some of us want to make it out to be um and and

00:26:45.800 and there is as terry said in his column there is no support no one wants khalistani they'll run you

00:26:52.400 out of the house if you if you so so why is it so big here i was speaking with uh with one gentleman

00:27:00.340 um from brampton the other day and i said it seemed to me like this this issue had kind of waned it had

00:27:07.000 gone away it was big in the 80s it was big in the 90s maybe into early 2000s and then kind of faded

00:27:13.040 and you didn't hear about it as much and and that it's bigger now and and so this gentleman said look

00:27:19.340 it's um it's a lot of people who may not remember the the violent fights of the past it but it's also

00:27:26.840 um people reacting in this country to what modi's doing in india would you would you agree with that

00:27:33.340 that perhaps some people are are saying saying they're more sympathetic to it because of the farm

00:27:39.040 protests and what have you oh i don't think so i don't think farm protests had anything to do with

00:27:46.020 this i i think i think what's more is modi's march towards so-called hindu rashtra has emboldened

00:27:55.140 other people to say if you want hindu rashtra in india how about khalistan right so um i think that

00:28:02.860 that may have something to do with it it gives people some legitimacy if the head of the country

00:28:09.420 wants a hindu rashtra why can't other people ask for other things uh along religious lines uh i think

00:28:15.840 the the the other questions are the usual explanations i mean you have people who have

00:28:21.360 come here as immigrants people who have come here as refugees particularly khalistani refugees now if you

00:28:27.580 pretend that you're a refugee then you begin to actually wear those clothing go to the temple

00:28:33.020 you have to prove to the authorities you're a refugee then you get sucked in and the other issue is

00:28:38.680 many of these people don't read english press they don't uh you know listen to the concerns that

00:28:45.160 canadians express daily about their own lives they're not connected with the canadian reality they're

00:28:51.500 isolated alienated they need something larger than themselves to attach uh themselves to say makes

00:28:58.720 them feel alive and uh and so there are many many reasons why you have this and you will always have

00:29:05.320 this will continue for a long time unless canadian leadership says to some of these folks hey folks

00:29:12.720 india is a friendly country despite this current situation which we hopefully overcome

00:29:19.020 india is a friendly country we don't like anybody promoting its dismemberment nobody has said that

00:29:25.340 i think if canadian leaders started saying that it would stop in no time you know part of what you

00:29:32.620 were saying with how people come here and and then they they develop these thought processes or support for

00:29:39.300 calistan um within my own family within the various immigrant communities that grew up around

00:29:45.520 there's always people who move to a new country like canada and then become more proud more patriotic of their

00:29:54.980 former homeland than they ever were at home i've known people who didn't care about anything in the

00:30:01.540 old country until they got to the new country and that's what that's what it sounds a bit like

00:30:06.480 it it is it is in fact it is it is much like that it is much much like that the other factor that you

00:30:14.360 must consider you see in india if you go to amritsar golden temple early in the morning you'll see more

00:30:20.440 hindus there than zeeks because amritsar is a is a largely a mixed city but largely a hindu city

00:30:26.780 um and and therefore you know people live next to each other they intermarry they see each other

00:30:34.100 every day they live their lives with each other so there's that healing process that takes place

00:30:38.800 when you're in canada you go to your temple you go to your construction site you speak punjabi you

00:30:44.680 read the same thing you talk the same thing so you become a bit of a mental ghetto and uh and there

00:30:51.340 is no healing process that takes place in a country like canada for them as you know we're laughing a

00:30:59.340 moment ago about how some of this happens but it can be deadly serious we've had air india was until

00:31:04.920 9 11 the worst air terror attack ever um it's uh you know the attack on you um the attack on uh the

00:31:15.220 the minister i'm forgetting his name now i've written about him several times yes you do um that was

00:31:22.700 1985 or 86 after your attack you they attempted to to kill a minister on canadian soil uh from the indian

00:31:31.300 government uh there are tit for tat battles that go on there is a very vicious violent side to this

00:31:39.960 that um i agree with you i think canadian leadership needs to to step up but how do they deal with the

00:31:47.860 violence does does saying look we we don't want india to be broken up i don't see that solving the

00:31:54.560 violence side of this oh i think i think that would solve the the respectability and acceptability

00:32:01.900 side of it it would become less respectable even in the eyes of the people who are practicing that

00:32:08.760 kind of politics to engage in that politics it would become less acceptable in the larger society

00:32:14.520 you see a lot of things happen if the larger society begins to spurn what you're doing uh and and

00:32:23.140 it's quite visible um you stop doing it because you're a minority i think there are a lot of

00:32:28.680 things that can happen and leadership you know matters leadership matters on these kinds of issues

00:32:33.900 and and canadian politicians have have rarely shown any leadership on these issues you you said earlier

00:32:40.520 that uh for relations between canada and india to get better we need to look beyond justin trudeau

00:32:46.620 i i think we can see that on the horizon um a change in leadership either at the head of the

00:32:52.220 liberal party or you know if polls stay as they are a change in government i think one of the other is

00:32:58.460 inevitable after almost a decade in office i'm less sure about how long modi sticks around but

00:33:05.560 do you think that you know there's been a lot of uh talk about an indo-pacific strategy now

00:33:11.680 that seems to have only come about due to um the fact that we've had a big falling out with china so

00:33:18.880 now we we've got the the two biggest growing economies in the world furious with us um horrible

00:33:26.180 relations with both do you think that canadian politicians have have taken india seriously

00:33:32.240 enough prior to these last couple years i i remember some calling for free trade with india

00:33:38.900 growing ties with india two decades ago deepak obre i think it was 2005 deepak first mentioned

00:33:46.480 to me that we need free trade with india some people were talking about it but india has always

00:33:52.660 seemed to take a backseat to china what but china was growing much faster and a more massive economy

00:34:00.600 than india there's no question so you know and and we had a longer relationship with china you know

00:34:06.760 the days of trudeau and the the days of the recognition of china canada was the first country to

00:34:13.620 do that i think there was that history uh although we have a common commonwealth history uh with

00:34:20.080 canada with india uh you know not much attention was paid successive governments particularly the

00:34:27.220 successive liberal governments uh followed uh that line and uh cemented the relationship with china

00:34:33.120 uh relationship with india was ignored because india was a very small economy

00:34:37.720 um it's only recently that india is making strides and uh is becoming a bit of a player

00:34:43.680 and therefore i think india is more important and and canadian leadership has to pay attention like

00:34:49.840 canadians lead canadians would never canada it once the relationship when relationship between china

00:34:57.680 and canada was healthy canadian leaders would have never ignored chinese or hong kong people sitting here

00:35:07.120 trying to undermine china destabilize china and create problems for our relationship with china

00:35:15.100 canadians canadian leadership has not paid the same attention to our relationship with india

00:35:23.640 no they've uh in the prime minister is definitely getting an earful on indian media over that saying

00:35:30.520 well and i think you mentioned it in in an interview as well uh that calisthen is more likely to happen in

00:35:36.840 canada than india and maybe you should just have it there oh absolutely you know what worries me

00:35:43.220 is that if these kinds of things are allowed to fester if people are today asking you know we don't

00:35:49.980 want to live with the hindus and muslims in panjab we want a separate sikh state well give it a hundred

00:35:56.940 years or 200 years they may want the same thing in canada what's happening with large-scale immigration

00:36:03.000 that's happening from all over the world i'm afraid because our political leaders don't make any

00:36:08.880 demands of the new immigrants to come and change a bit come and become canadians you know mainstream

00:36:15.540 like value democracy fairness ability to listen to each other um without violence if you don't make

00:36:23.640 those kinds of expectations known to new immigrants you are in fact literally importing the tribal wars

00:36:31.420 from all over the world that would replay on canadian soil 100 years from now maybe 50 years from now

00:36:38.240 and and they would they would we already have people this chap from across the border pandan

00:36:44.920 he's already saying hindus should be expelled from canada so you'll have a reaction to that so you'll

00:36:51.780 have a recreation of a conflict that actually never existed in india before 1984 hindus and sikhs have

00:36:59.680 never like most hindus don't consider sikhs as separate and apart from them uh they think sikhs are

00:37:06.500 just part of them and so you'll have that that kind of uh stuff happening on canadian soil that i saw

00:37:13.360 that video the other day and it was shocking but people calling for the religious balkanization of

00:37:20.540 canada absolutely and and and i'm saying to you we are irresponsible not just on the question of

00:37:28.640 india i mean i can give you a litany of this but we are absolutely irresponsible as political leaders

00:37:34.580 when we don't say to our newcomers please become canadian learn canadian values i mean trudeau is famous

00:37:42.520 or infamous for saying we have no mainstream we have many streams well i'm sorry if we have no

00:37:49.240 mainstream then we really have no business calling ourselves a country we have a mainstream you you know

00:37:55.060 it's um too many people are afraid to say what you just did that we have to have some expectations of

00:38:03.600 um adaptation to canadian canadian way of life because they're afraid of being called racist and i remember

00:38:10.960 there was a controversy in gatineau across from ottawa uh they had put out a brochure for new

00:38:17.700 immigrants that was being handed out at the immigration welcome center and they it was denounced

00:38:23.720 because in part they said they warned people you know you can't bribe officials here and and and the

00:38:30.700 anti-racism campaigners said how dare you say that you you assume that people come from countries where

00:38:36.320 there's bribes and i was working with a a cameraman originally from russia and and he's he's he said

00:38:42.860 the the best advice he got when he came to canada was don't offer bribes you'll go to jail because in

00:38:49.740 russia if you don't bribe people nothing happens then you go to jail so he said if nobody told me that

00:38:57.100 i would have ended up in jail but but we we are afraid to express anything um

00:39:04.580 well you know the several years ago i wrote a column uh calling saying let the white man speak

00:39:13.080 because this identity politics this sort of extremism in the form of identity politics has taken over

00:39:19.920 our life and and we are in fact trying to tell white guys you have no right to speak and if you

00:39:29.060 have no right to speak how are we going to have a dialogue yeah your majority but still you should

00:39:34.700 be able to freely express your views if they're bad we'll tell you if they're good we'll tell you

00:39:40.100 but we need to have a dialogue and i was excoriated by the cbc man i i still remember that

00:39:47.460 well we'll see if there is canadian leadership that will uh will take on these issues do you see um

00:39:54.580 do you see more fallout from the last few days and the the allegations coming from uh from the

00:40:02.920 modi government or from the trudeau government you know there's been cancellation of visas the

00:40:07.200 indian consulate in toronto is in the same building as post media and i was speaking with

00:40:12.000 someone in the hall and they've been told no visas to india for canada i'm expecting

00:40:17.220 tariffs to come in at at a certain point on on our agricultural products what else do you expect

00:40:23.660 i i don't think there'll be tariffs i mean at least i hope there are no tariffs i i i this visa thing

00:40:30.740 is a great inconvenience for indo-canadians you know people have ties back home they want to go sort

00:40:37.300 out their family issues their property issues or marriages and funerals and services um you know

00:40:46.900 and that is so sad and i think that's partly i can't blame mr trudeau for that but i mr trudeau

00:40:54.680 should have paused and reflected on how to deal with this issue in a responsible way so that we

00:41:03.180 don't go down the slippery slope and we all suffer that's not to say we should condone what india is

00:41:09.840 alleged to have done if india has done that that's absolutely condemnable we should do that but there are

00:41:15.340 responsible ways of dealing with those issues all right ujal it was great to speak to you again

00:41:20.280 and uh and thanks for your insight on uh what is a very um complex web thanks so much for the time

00:41:29.560 all right good seeing you bye-bye full comment is a post media podcast my name is brian lily your host

00:41:35.920 this episode was produced by andre pru with theme music by bryce hall kevin libin is the executive

00:41:41.560 producer again remember you can subscribe on apple podcast google spotify amazon and more help us out

00:41:47.600 by giving us a rating or leaving a review and tell your friends about us thanks for listening until

00:41:52.440 until next time i'm brian lily

00:41:53.820 you

Full Comment - September 25, 2023

Trudeau isn’t being taken seriously about India

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