Full Comment - ‘Used by the CBC’： Wendy Mesley after the ‘n-word’ incident

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00:01:44.920 Hello, I'm Anthony Fury. Thanks for joining us for the latest episode of Full Comet. If you haven't

00:01:56.360 done so already, please consider subscribing. For many years, broadcaster Wendy Mesley was a fixture

00:02:01.900 on the televisions of Canadian households, bringing families the news as a host of popular shows

00:02:06.500 Undercurrents, Marketplace, and The National, all on the CBC, where she worked for 38 years until her

00:02:12.280 departure from that network last year. A remarkable career during a time that saw incredible changes

00:02:17.020 in the media landscape. Now, Wendy Mesley is the host with Maureen Holloway of a new show,

00:02:21.960 the podcast Women of Ill Repute, which is described as being about people who don't give a damn

00:02:28.340 about the old rules. Wendy joins us today to talk about her career, her new show, the state of media

00:02:34.120 today in Canada, including the future of the CBC, and so much more. Wendy Mesley, welcome to the

00:02:39.440 program. Thank you so much for joining us today. Oh, you're very, very welcome. Lovely to be here,

00:02:44.420 Anthony. How are you? I am doing well, and how are you? Good. I'm so happy to hear you mention

00:02:49.540 Undercurrents, because that was my favorite show. I love doing that show. I had been a political

00:02:54.820 reporter forever, and I thought that there weren't really people who were investigating media or

00:03:00.580 marketing or advertising or all of that stuff, and I thought, woohoo! And of course, I soon learned

00:03:06.000 why no other network was doing that was because I was attacking my colleagues and attacking

00:03:10.580 advertisers and so on, but it was great while it lasted, and CBC, God bless them for that.

00:03:17.980 They let me do that show, so thank you for mentioning that. That was my favorite.

00:03:22.140 And you know, it's funny, because I guess sometimes the things that people consider their own career

00:03:26.620 highlights, you know, people they've interviewed or places they've gone to are not necessarily what

00:03:30.840 the public would think. Like you say, oh, this was the prime minister or what have you. Well, no,

00:03:33.920 it was actually this or that. What sort of anecdotes or interviews do you chalk as your

00:03:41.120 favorites that perhaps we wouldn't first think of? You know what? I think that's everybody's

00:03:45.960 or so many people's first question, and definitely a favorite question. And I'm terrible. I used to

00:03:51.500 think it was a guy thing, but I don't think it is. I think it's just a person. I don't know. I mean,

00:03:57.620 there's certain interviews that I remember. Like, I remember asking Jean Chrétien why his face was

00:04:03.340 half frozen, that nobody, everybody talked about, but nobody ever asked him. And he gave me an honest

00:04:07.680 answer. Like, I remember, he said, yeah, I had this disease when I was a kid. And now, you know,

00:04:12.640 I talked to this other ear, and I hear better through that. And, and, and on we go. So I thought

00:04:17.300 that was, like, I remember weird little moments, as opposed to, like, I always wanted to interview

00:04:22.940 Dolly Parton. And I, at one point at CBC, they said, who of all the people in the world,

00:04:28.660 we're doing something to fill time in the summer, when no one's spending any money. But who of all

00:04:35.220 the people in the world, would you like to interview? And I said, Dolly Parton, this is

00:04:38.020 like 10 years ago. And she wouldn't do it, wouldn't do it, wouldn't do it. And then finally said, I won't

00:04:44.040 come up and do it, or I won't meet you and do it. But you can come to, what's it called?

00:04:47.920 Dollywood. Yeah. And it was when I had booked to go away on holidays, and I couldn't go. And it was

00:04:54.600 awful. So that was my big, my big chance. So yeah, I guess I probably would have remembered every word

00:05:00.300 of that interview, but it never happened. She does strike me as a genuinely just decent human being,

00:05:04.860 Dolly Parton. I know. Yeah. And she's such, you know, I mean, the fake boobs and all which, you know, 1.00

00:05:11.120 as women were 50 years ago, raised to think, you know, anything you do to enhance your, you should 0.67

00:05:17.020 never do any of that. But she did it. She was open about it. Her music is great. She can write

00:05:21.660 a song in five minutes. And she's, she's just such an inspiration. I'm not a big music person,

00:05:27.960 which Maureen Holloway, my co host on the new podcast that we're doing points out to me all

00:05:33.960 the time that I am really a mutant when it comes to pop culture. But to me, Dolly is such a,

00:05:39.780 such a great character. She's just she's she's used she's she's brilliant. And she's a brilliant

00:05:45.320 business person. And she's used her life to make life better for other people. So kind of a cool

00:05:49.840 person. You know, Wendy asking, How are you doing now? I'm sure there's a lot of people who who

00:05:53.620 approach you and probably ask you that question, just because they're so used to you being in the

00:05:57.860 background of their lives with television on seeing you every day. They haven't seen you for for well

00:06:02.120 over a year. And they're probably coming up to you on the streets and saying, How you doing,

00:06:05.120 Wendy? Well, it's weird, like people, most of the people who come up to me are over 40,

00:06:10.920 because it seems that mainstream media now is only watched by people over 40, or maybe even older.

00:06:18.480 So yeah, no, I'm doing fine. I it was, it was a heartbreaking thing that I went through it at CBC.

00:06:25.900 I mean, I can talk about that I can, I wouldn't mind actually telling you what happened. Because

00:06:31.320 for a year, I didn't, didn't stand up for myself and didn't say anything and sort of hope that things

00:06:36.500 would get better. And, and I think I was used by CBC to basically say, we have a racism problem,

00:06:44.100 and it's her. So let's all hate her. So yeah, basically, what happened was I was on a phone 0.98

00:06:50.180 call, preparing a show. George Floyd had been murdered by the cops. A week earlier, we were

00:06:57.240 doing something on racism in Canadian media. And we had three black people who were going to come on to

00:07:03.700 the journalists who were going to come on and talk about what it was like in journalism. And

00:07:07.760 anyway, so we were I was talking with other producers on the phone, because it was COVID time,

00:07:11.560 the beginning of COVID time. And anyway, I was outraged that this woman who was going to be on 1.00

00:07:17.120 our panel, this journalist had said that she was called that all the time. And anyway, I was outraged

00:07:22.300 by this and kept going on. She was called the N word all the time.

00:07:25.820 She was called the N word all she said she was called this all the time. So I wanted that to be part 1.00

00:07:30.680 of our panel discussion. And I think I used the N word in the first reference. And then I used the

00:07:38.800 whole word and because I got caught up in the moment, and I shouldn't have used it. And I realized

00:07:42.720 immediately that I'd hurt people. And I apologized for using the word because I should have known

00:07:48.540 better. But it turned into like the next year, I was basically portrayed by my employer of almost 40

00:07:55.260 years as, as being a racist, and they never stood up for me. And so I and I never fought for myself.

00:08:02.160 So I think I it kind of broke my heart, actually, it was extremely, extremely difficult. So that took

00:08:09.520 a year to resolve that. And during that, I got sick, and my mom died, and a whole bunch of other

00:08:13.520 shitty stuff happened. And then finally, we parted ways, shall we say, and, and now I'm doing this

00:08:21.780 podcast. So I'm sort of a broadcaster, but I'm more of a podcaster, not making any money. But

00:08:26.820 if you want to sign up, please do. We're looking for sponsors, we're looking for like big bags of

00:08:33.420 money to fall from the sky. So I'm, I'm fine now. But it was, it was a rather rough thing to go through

00:08:38.780 when you look back on that period. And you kind of say, you know, I didn't say it on the air. I, I

00:08:44.520 apologize, because I had hurt people and should have known better. And I deserve to be punished. But I

00:08:50.200 didn't deserve the punishment that I got, which was basically losing all credibility and my reputation

00:08:55.020 and my job and my show and everything else at CBC. So, wow. And losing your mother as well. I'm

00:09:01.160 sorry to hear about that very difficult. Yeah, well, it's funny, I wrote, I think you want to ask me

00:09:06.640 about the piece that I wrote for the Globe, more than a year ago, but I wrote another piece that got

00:09:13.080 published on Mother's Day. So recently. And it was about my mother as being the original woman of ill

00:09:20.600 repute. Because she basically raised me, she left my dad, who I revealed in that piece was gay. Back in 0.99

00:09:27.980 those days, it was illegal to be gay. He was going to go through psychotherapy or whatever, and see a

00:09:33.860 psychiatrist and learn how not to be gay as if that's a thing. Anyway, so obviously, their marriage 0.72

00:09:39.700 did not work out. But somehow I happened. And so I wrote about how she basically went on and

00:09:46.780 formed a life for herself and for me, after leaving him and how she was the original woman of ill repute

00:09:54.760 and that, you know, she wasn't, it took her seven years to get custody of me and to get a divorce. And 1.00

00:10:01.200 by the time she could date, she was in her 30s. And in those days, if you weren't married by 30,

00:10:07.160 you're a spinster. So anyway, she never remarried. And she raised me to fight for myself and to think

00:10:14.300 a little bit differently than a lot of women were raised to think in those days. And yeah, so I,

00:10:21.760 I, yeah, it was, it was difficult losing her, but she had dementia. So she was sort of slipping away

00:10:28.360 gradually. It was not, not a shock. When she died.

00:10:34.120 There's so much to unpack about what you discussed there about your departure from CBC. One thing I

00:10:40.660 found interesting, you mentioned, and a year later, so there was the incident, the meeting,

00:10:44.840 which you promptly apologized for, realized you'd misspoken. And then a year later, you feel like

00:10:51.940 you're sort of the fall guy, the fall gal for this racism at the CBC issue. How is that something that

00:10:58.000 took it?

00:10:58.340 No, it didn't take a year. I, yeah, no, I felt that pretty immediately when it turned into,

00:11:03.300 like, two or three days in when I realized that it was going to be an HR and a union thing,

00:11:10.300 and that they were going to basically allow everybody who wanted to portray me as a racist

00:11:15.400 to portray me as a racist. That, like, I was mad from, or I was upset, mad at myself,

00:11:22.880 but also mad at CBC very early on. But when you work for CBC, you can either, and something happens,

00:11:31.720 you can either go with the process and try and figure it out and hope that, that, you know,

00:11:37.320 after 40 years, and, and it had its own problems with systemic racism, of which it was accused

00:11:44.040 publicly at the CRTC and other places by CBC employees, you would hope that I had hoped that

00:11:51.240 things could be worked out and that I could actually return. And it took, it took a year,

00:11:55.500 but you can't fight, you can't say anything, you can't fight for yourself, you can't say anything

00:11:59.380 publicly. So it took a year for me to say, okay, this is not going to work. We, neither of us sees

00:12:05.300 the future here. So I'm going to leave. So it took a year for me to say, I'm going to leave and to have

00:12:11.000 the freedom to be able to say, I think the treatment of me was inappropriate. And, uh, I'm,

00:12:17.560 uh, I'm a free person and, uh, I didn't agree to a gag order for whatever money might've been

00:12:23.360 involved. And, uh, I'm free, obviously, or I wouldn't be speaking to you. Um, uh, that took a

00:12:30.200 year. It didn't take me a year to figure out that, uh, CBC and I, uh, were not in good terms.

00:12:35.320 So basically you were being spoken about by people for a whole year and, and I guess perhaps

00:12:40.140 misrepresented or smeared or called names for about a year on social media or the rumor mill

00:12:44.660 in the industry. And you're someone who's used to telling stories, telling people's stories for,

00:12:49.400 for many years. And you couldn't tell your own story at that point while other people

00:12:53.460 were, were speaking about you and speaking for you.

00:12:56.540 Well, I mean, this is a much broader discussion. I don't want to talk about smears or whatever,

00:13:00.820 but, um, uh, it is, it is a broader discussion of what's happening in social media is that,

00:13:06.420 you know, like my, so many normal people, like everyday people who are not in the media,

00:13:12.380 uh, they had no idea what happened cause they're, they're not on, on Twitter or Insta or other

00:13:18.060 places that I was being denounced or even watching the national, which sort of denounced me on air a

00:13:23.020 few times. Um, yeah. Um, but I think that it's generally what's happening in media,

00:13:30.680 is that people just read what their friends believe and, uh, and we're basically being

00:13:37.760 taught to hate each other. But during that whole period, yeah. I mean, people were saying all kinds

00:13:41.980 of ridiculous things about me that, and, and, and even other journalists believe that I had actually

00:13:47.700 called somebody the N word. Like I would never, I never have my long life. I have never called

00:13:54.500 anybody that. And I, I thought I had a reputation for fighting for underdogs and, uh, for not being

00:14:01.160 someone that would ever call somebody, uh, uh, a name. Um, I used the word, uh, and I thought I was

00:14:08.340 being supportive and outraged that somebody had actually been called that word, but, uh, but I

00:14:13.480 shouldn't have used it and I apologized. And I think, yeah. So I kept quiet for a year thinking that

00:14:17.980 CBC and I would, would work things out, but, uh, but we didn't. So it took me a year to rant.

00:14:23.820 And it's crazy to think that there's stories about your departure, but all the facts aren't

00:14:27.640 filled in, or there's a segment about you on the national. Uh, and again, the facts aren't filled

00:14:31.860 in. So people are left going, well, what did she do? Yeah. Well, somebody said to me, a friend of

00:14:36.440 mine said, well, because you didn't speak out because you didn't fight for yourself, uh, people think

00:14:42.120 that, uh, the absolute worst must've happened, that it must've been way worse than what actually

00:14:46.640 happened. Um, and it's true. I mean, I think that is my biggest regret is that I, my mom taught me to,

00:14:52.960 to fight for myself. Um, and I didn't, I didn't, I didn't fight for myself, but if I, if I had,

00:14:58.460 I would have had to have left the CBC grieved the, the, the, uh, punishment that was given me. I would

00:15:05.240 have had to have, uh, sued them. And I just, that was, I don't, or, you know, I could have gone the

00:15:11.380 other way and attacked the people who didn't know what had happened and who had made all

00:15:16.540 kinds of assumptions and were using me to fight a cause. Um, and we're making assumptions about me

00:15:22.040 based on stuff that they didn't know, but I didn't want to attack them either. I didn't really want to

00:15:25.800 attack either the place I had worked for 40 years or for the people who were fighting for issues that

00:15:31.140 actually mattered a lot to me. So, uh, so I, yeah, I felt like the best thing I can do is, uh, try and,

00:15:38.420 and work this out. And then I realized that was not going to happen.

00:15:41.480 It seems definitely very bureaucratic, antiseptic, ungenerous to not discuss the

00:15:47.300 nuances of your situation. Um, that appear, it seems that that's what happened in the HR

00:15:53.740 scenario there, where I know there's debates over, is it acceptable to say this word as an

00:15:58.420 example of a word one shouldn't say, you know, people talk about different nuances. Well, it's

00:16:02.740 said in lyrics to songs all the time, kind of thing. You're just using it as example of a word

00:16:07.160 you disapprove of and so forth. And it's like, to your point, this word was not said in hostility.

00:16:12.020 You weren't aiming it towards anyone. You were speaking about it disapprovingly and you've

00:16:17.120 acknowledged, you feel you shouldn't have said it, you've apologized for it. And yet you still need

00:16:21.340 to lose everything. It's kind of like, where was the nuance in all of that?

00:16:27.480 Yeah. Well, I, I, I don't think that there's any excuse for, for saying the word and I should

00:16:33.640 have known better. And that's why I apologize. And I, and I think that people do need to be

00:16:38.500 careful when they're hurting other people, you know, like my, I, uh, I take particular offense

00:16:43.640 to what's called the C word, which everybody knows, uh, as well as they know the N word. Um,

00:16:48.240 I would take particular offense to that. And my husband, you know, he's, uh, Irish and thinks 1.00

00:16:55.280 that that's, I think that that's a word that you call everybody that you think is being a dick 0.96

00:16:59.740 in a certain moment. Um, and he doesn't see it as offensive. So everybody sees things in 0.96

00:17:04.920 different ways and they can express themselves in different ways. I should have known better.

00:17:09.140 I never mean like, if I mean to hurt somebody, like when I was in marketplace and chasing crooked

00:17:14.640 contractors, I meant to hurt them, but I did not mean to hurt anybody by using that word. And I should

00:17:21.120 have known better. And I think, but I do think the context matters. There's a big difference between,

00:17:26.320 uh, fighting against somebody being called that and saying the word and calling somebody that,

00:17:31.280 which I would never have done in a million years. All right. And I guess I just mean that there was

00:17:36.480 no sense of that nuance in public discussion or reporting of you, or perhaps in the HR process,

00:17:41.800 it seemed to just be, okay, Wendy has to lose everything now. I, yeah, I don't want to speak for

00:17:46.940 them. I can speak for myself, but yeah. And I think I've explained sort of where I've come from.

00:17:54.440 So when you talk about the punishment you received, what, what was that punishment?

00:17:58.720 Uh, well, there are some points that, um, in my, uh, there are some points that I'm not sure that I

00:18:06.460 can speak about, but, uh, it, it was probably the largest punishment, uh, given out, uh, to anyone who

00:18:14.080 was not fired. Uh, and then I ended up losing my job and my show and whatever. Anyway, they, they,

00:18:19.180 uh, the, the, the punishment, uh, at CBC can be, um, uh, not being paid for a period of time. So I was

00:18:30.360 not paid for a period of time and I had to go to sensitivity training. Um, and my show was taken

00:18:36.480 away from me and I was ultimately offered another job, which was to go back and basically, you know,

00:18:43.360 do a job that I did when I was 20 years old, which is, you know, read somebody else's copy.

00:18:49.700 I want to get your thoughts on a story up at cbc.ca right now. Prominent Radio Canada

00:18:53.940 personalities urge broadcaster to fight CRTC N word decision. Basically there were a few occasions,

00:19:01.000 a number of occasions where a French Canadian employees of, of Radio Canada, part of CBC,

00:19:06.480 uh, had used the N word, I guess in a similar way that, that, that you had in terms of not

00:19:13.380 using it, uh, rudely to a person, but just as an example word, uh, they said this on the air.

00:19:19.600 I know it was established. You said it in a meeting and there was a complaint filed against them

00:19:25.060 and they're saying they want CBC to fight for them. These broadcasters and a lot of, uh, prominent

00:19:31.280 French broadcasters are standing up and saying, yes, you must fight for us, uh, to not receive

00:19:35.760 great punishments for this. I know they often do things differently in Quebec in a number of ways

00:19:40.020 than we do here in English Canada. What do you make of this story? Um, I don't want to make a

00:19:45.440 pronouncement about what Radio Canada or CBC should do, but I have two comments. One is that, uh, nearly

00:19:52.960 all of the people who are saying, how dare the CRTC get involved in this, uh, free speech, uh, debate

00:20:00.020 and tell Reggie Canada what to say. Um, all of those people are 50 and older and there's a lot of

00:20:07.780 people and white, um, maybe not all of them, but I, but pretty much so. And I happen to know a lot of

00:20:15.620 people under 50 and a few people under 50 who are not white, who work at Reggie Canada and are not

00:20:22.000 supportive and think that, that nuance does matter. And there was no nuance, um, expressed in that show,

00:20:27.600 acknowledging that saying the word, um, could have, um, harmful or hurtful effects on people.

00:20:35.540 So there's that. And I would also like to point out that, uh, there was a complaint, uh, made, uh,

00:20:42.800 at CBC during this whole inward thing at CBC, as opposed to Reggie Canada back in the day when I

00:20:48.260 said the word on the telephone, uh, to staff members, um, not accusing anyone of being that,

00:20:55.460 but being upset that somebody was called that. Uh, so the ombudsman at CBC looked into it and wrote

00:21:00.320 a report and nobody noticed that because there was a lot of blah, blah, blah, as there always is

00:21:06.300 in ombuds people's reports, wherever, wherever the institution is. Um, but they also said that, uh,

00:21:14.160 that the CBC broke its own ethical guidelines for, uh, uh, how they, how they covered what happened

00:21:20.800 to me. So, uh, yeah, there, there is, there is a difference. CBC decided to make an example out of

00:21:27.580 me, even though if you look at all of the senior management, or if you look at all the things that

00:21:31.960 were said about, uh, CBC at the time and its own problems with, uh, with racism, um, there,

00:21:38.600 they decided to, uh, um, you know, take advantage of, of, uh, of my using the word and, and my

00:21:47.140 celebrity, I guess, Canadian style celebrity for whatever it's worth. Um, and, uh, there was a

00:21:53.700 very different approach at, uh, at Radio Canada. We'll be back with more full comment in just a

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00:22:59.280 What are the new technologies that will change aviation? Well, hydrogen would be one for sure if,

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00:23:27.300 Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

00:23:30.800 Wendy, you mentioned CBC's problems with racism. CBC is a large organization,

00:23:35.440 many employees. Are the problems that CBC has faced, uh, particularly greater than at other

00:23:42.400 institutions? What, what is unique or specific to CBC's challenges as opposed to the challenges that,

00:23:49.380 that other organizations might face with racism?

00:23:51.980 It is a, um, excuse me, it is a, uh, unique situation, um, because I, I don't think that the

00:24:00.640 issue of diversity or bigotry or racism or whatever is any different or any worse, uh, it might actually

00:24:07.460 be better at CBC than a lot of places, but the, the difference is that, um, well, I guess there's

00:24:14.760 two differences. Um, the main difference is that because it's, um, uh, a crown corporation and because

00:24:24.100 it's subsidized by taxpayers, it has a responsibility to, uh, uh, when it does something bad to take

00:24:31.520 responsibility and try and make that better and to be accountable for that. Where, as if you're in,

00:24:37.200 uh, private media, you can make different decisions that don't have anything to do with,

00:24:44.280 uh, that have to do with your own morality as opposed to how others may, may see you. So there's

00:24:49.400 that difference. And there is also a very strong union at CBC, which means that all the old people,

00:24:53.900 like me, uh, had jobs that were protected forever and you would have had to have basically murdered

00:24:59.900 your boss on video, which existed in those days, um, uh, for you not to be supported. So,

00:25:08.000 and meanwhile, the, the government grants and the, and the audience were declining. And so people,

00:25:17.320 all of the old white people were supported and all of the young people who wanted to have jobs,

00:25:22.740 including people who were of color or some kind of diversity, uh, were, were trying to get in and

00:25:29.840 all there, there just weren't a lot of positions in a, in a shrinking mainstream media world. And so

00:25:35.260 like everybody, everybody is struggling and CBC tried extra hard, but they did,

00:25:40.680 they had racism problems. And part of what happened to me was there was a, um, diversity inclusion,

00:25:46.520 um, group that had been made all kinds of promises about how there was going to be changes in terms of

00:25:53.780 there would not just be old white people in terms of, uh, uh, senior management and that there would

00:25:59.320 be different rules in terms of what was considered a bias or a whole bunch of promises made. And this

00:26:05.780 group didn't feel like they were being delivered upon, especially after changes in management. And,

00:26:10.420 um, uh, so when I happened, when the thing with me happened, it was just like enough already and

00:26:17.380 George Floyd and COVID and everything else enough already enough, enough, enough. And so, um, it

00:26:23.280 became, it became very much an issue and there'd been a change in management and, uh, and, and a big

00:26:29.240 focus on, on, on trying to change things quickly. And I got swept up in all of that.

00:26:34.540 Um, speaking about CBC being a crown corporation, people having views about it, people have opinions

00:26:41.540 and passions about CBC that they just don't have about the other major networks. I guess the other

00:26:46.640 networks, they either, they either watch or they don't. And that's that CBC, there's friends of CBC

00:26:51.820 and organization. There are people who put, uh, little signs on their yard saying I'm a CBC supporter

00:26:57.100 on the other side, there are people who just love to criticize CBC and you can win an entire

00:27:01.280 conservative leadership race, just promising to trim the budget or even shut down the whole

00:27:05.020 operation. So strong are the passions felt on both sides. Do you think that's, that's fair? And how,

00:27:13.240 how did journalists in CBC respond to that atmosphere? Well, I think that, uh, a lot of people

00:27:23.120 have wanted to work for CBC, uh, because it has been such, especially as, as, as journalists,

00:27:30.780 um, and there is this, I mean, it used to be that, uh, there would be, I'm exaggerating, but there

00:27:38.640 would be like three crews showing up for, uh, CTVs, one crew and people would go, this is ridiculous.

00:27:43.880 Um, those were the good old days. Those, those days haven't existed for a long time. Uh, so now CBC,

00:27:51.800 while, uh, struggling like everybody else and while supported by the government, unlike everybody else,

00:27:59.100 it's, it's still struggling and its audience is shrinking and the dollars are shrinking, the demands,

00:28:03.680 the, the, uh, the, uh, demands to be, uh, in time zones across the country in different languages and

00:28:10.440 all of that. It's, uh, it, it's really difficult. Like I, I'm, I'm doing a podcast now because I,

00:28:16.900 I think that the mainstream media, uh, world is shrinking and changing. And some of that is natural

00:28:24.260 and some of that is good, but some of it is also because people, it used to be, you know,

00:28:29.360 like when I was a kid where there would be like three TV stations to watch. That was great. It

00:28:34.000 used to be in Quebec, there'd be three TV stations to watch and everybody watched the same thing. And,

00:28:37.780 and the culture was so cohesive. And now you've got YouTube and Instagram and Twitter and everything

00:28:43.120 else, TikTok, um, and, and culture is, is changing. And I think CBC feels very much that it's changing

00:28:51.360 and that it needs to get ad revenue. And that's creating problems with journalists who are saying,

00:28:55.060 why are you selling our journalism as, uh, as, uh, disguised as advertising, even if it's not that

00:29:01.540 clear, but it's, it's a changing world and everybody is struggling. Right. There's a new

00:29:07.260 announcement that there'll be a streaming service that is ad supported, uh, out of CBC. And I know

00:29:12.600 management feels passionate about this as an opportunity for new revenues, but there are a lot

00:29:16.240 of criticisms and concerns about whether a public broadcaster should be doing this. And I guess

00:29:20.780 questions about, should CBC be like BBC in the UK, this large empire, or should it be sort of

00:29:26.100 constrained more to be like an NPR type operation? Where do you see the future of CBC?

00:29:31.540 That's not for me to say, especially now. Um, but I, uh, I, I am very grateful for the

00:29:37.680 opportunities that CBC gave me. My first job actually was with CTV. Um, but at CBC, I was able to do,

00:29:44.640 I was able to do shows that, uh, basically spoke for the underdog and I was able to do,

00:29:50.780 I was able to, uh, have support in time to like when I first, like I was the first woman to cover

00:29:56.460 a prime minister for the CBC bureau, uh, on parliament hill. Um, that is an opportunity that

00:30:03.340 I am eternally grateful for. Um, so, you know, while things didn't end well for me and I'm mad at

00:30:10.700 CBC for the certain ways that they handled me in the end, I, I still think it's, I still think it's

00:30:16.860 necessary. And while there's so much positive stuff happening with social media and all of the

00:30:21.620 other, uh, changes that we've seen in the last 10, 20 years, um, I, I, I think there's a lot of good

00:30:30.520 and bad in both mainstream media and in, and in social media. And this is the world that we live in.

00:30:36.500 I love the title of the new podcast, women of ill repute. So far, your guests have been Mary Walsh, 1.00

00:30:43.700 Jody Wilson-Raybould, Jan Arden, your co-host Maureen Holloway. Are you all women of ill repute? 0.93

00:30:49.840 Yeah, well, that's one of the reasons I've always seen myself as a woman of ill repute,

00:30:54.220 which is meant to be a compliment, by the way, it has, it has nothing to do with, uh, my having,

00:30:59.840 uh, said the N word. And I thought defensive of, of black people and then realizing that I stupidly 0.97

00:31:06.600 realizing that I had, you know, hurt people and done the opposite. Um, but yeah, women of ill repute, 1.00

00:31:13.120 it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with, with fighting for things that you believe in and

00:31:18.400 not, uh, following perhaps the, the, you know, the roles or the rules that, that were set out for you.

00:31:25.080 So yeah, I mean, um, Maureen, what are those rules? What were the rules that you were supposed

00:31:30.120 to follow? Well, I don't want to anymore. I'm old now, so I'm hoping that the rules are changing,

00:31:35.520 but I, I, I have a, a daughter who's in her twenties and I have a lot of female friends who 0.93

00:31:40.600 are in their thirties and forties and fifties. And there are a lot of things that don't change.

00:31:44.120 And, and for Maureen, like she, she's a comedian. She did a, um, a morning show. She was on Q107

00:31:49.700 and on CHFI in Toronto, big, big, uh, morning shows in Toronto. And, but before that she was

00:31:55.140 a comedian and like, she was told, yeah, well, you're really funny and everything, but you know,

00:32:00.180 people don't really want to see funny women. They want to see funny men. Um, I was raised by

00:32:05.060 a woman who, you know, did not tell me to wear clean underwear and, uh, keep my bangs out of my 1.00

00:32:11.780 face and, uh, and smile and, and just be nice to everybody. I wasn't, I wasn't, my mother didn't teach me

00:32:18.820 that. And she taught me different things. Uh, she taught me how to fight for myself. She taught me

00:32:23.780 how to believe in things. She taught me to tell the truth, which, uh, I think there's a limit to,

00:32:28.900 like she actually told somebody that they've married a dork. I don't, I don't think, I don't 0.78

00:32:33.700 think that's necessary. So she probably went too far, but it's, uh, yeah, the old rules about how women 1.00

00:32:39.960 can't be funny. Women can't be ambitious women. Um, they have to be married. They can't get divorced, 1.00

00:32:46.260 all of those things. Um, they should always be smiling. Um, I think those things are getting

00:32:52.600 better for, uh, for women and, and for people in general. I think people just need to, um, 0.74

00:32:59.140 I think people need to fight for things that they believe in, even if they're not the standard rules.

00:33:03.780 And that's, you know, obviously what's happening in the States is different than what's happening

00:33:07.600 in Canada, but, uh, but that's what I, I don't, I don't reject all rules. I think some rules are,

00:33:13.240 are important and the rules are always changing. And I believe in challenging the status quo.

00:33:17.760 And I think I've done that in my career and I believe in, I believe in change. Like when I was

00:33:21.960 a kid, you know, people used to do jokes about gay people. Um, you don't do that anymore. You used

00:33:28.160 to do jokes about, uh, black people don't do that in Toronto anymore. It would bother me when I moved

00:33:34.080 to Quebec that people were still telling jokes about black people. I just, I think I've, I've fought

00:33:40.200 against that all my life. So when I talk about, uh, rules, those, those are the rules that I mean,

00:33:46.440 but I, I believe in, you know, trying to be kind and trying to be good and trying to listen to each

00:33:52.520 other. And, and I, I've, I've always tried to do that, but I'm human and I've made mistakes like

00:33:57.960 everybody else.

00:33:59.760 Who are some other voices we're going to hear from on this show? Cause I already see in the guests

00:34:04.120 you've had so far that, uh, one gets a sense of the, well, yeah, that, that these are people who

00:34:09.100 don't give a damn about the old rules. 0.77

00:34:11.840 Uh, yeah, well the next person up, she's coming out on, uh, Tuesday. So it's funny because we,

00:34:18.900 I guess women of ill repute is meant to be, it's meant to be a compliment, but it's also 0.99

00:34:23.300 like, we're not going to, uh, interview women who have not challenged the status quo in some way.

00:34:30.200 Um, but we're also interviewing women who we find to be admirable in some way. So, uh, I'm not going

00:34:36.680 to give you the whole list of, of people, but we're, we're talking to, uh, Marie Hennon, the lawyer.

00:34:42.420 So she's, uh, she defended, uh, Jean Gomeschi and, uh, he used to work at CBC of course, and, uh,

00:34:50.700 she defended him and he was found to be not guilty. Uh, and a lot of people say that the way that she

00:34:56.260 fought for him, uh, did a disservice to victims of sexual assault. So there, there's, but also

00:35:04.220 like murderers deserve to, to have a good defense that doesn't make their lawyer a murderer. Um,

00:35:10.820 so we talked to her about, um, about.

00:35:14.500 Well, you've teed me up some, I can't now ask you brought Gomeschi up. I didn't bring him up. Now

00:35:18.940 I have to ask you, what did you think about the Jean Gomeschi thing being a, at least a broader

00:35:24.600 colleague? Yeah, I never really knew him. So, uh, I had heard stories, but I never knew anything to

00:35:31.600 be real. So, uh, yeah, I'm hardly, hardly an expert on, on that situation. So sorry.

00:35:39.300 Well, and what did you think of that, that discussion? And I know you're just getting

00:35:42.600 into this before I interrupted you that Marie Hennon, like, would it have been different if a 0.98

00:35:47.440 male lawyer had said, well, I'm defending him because everybody deserves a defense. So I'm going to

00:35:50.880 defend him. But Marie Hennon, as, as a woman, somehow that wasn't acceptable. 0.95

00:35:56.960 Yeah. Uh, well, I found it very interesting that, that she was able,

00:36:04.840 she acknowledges in the interview and I, I, I, Maureen is going to kill me for giving too much

00:36:10.340 away here, but in the interview, she basically acknowledges that, that the system doesn't always

00:36:16.300 work for sexual assault victims. Um, and we know that most, not all women tell the truth, but 0.99

00:36:23.540 that the women who have actually been sexually assaulted, which often means rape, even though

00:36:29.180 that is not the word in law anymore, um, that they, uh, do not get a fair trial or they do not get a,

00:36:37.460 they do not get justice in the, in the system that very rarely, uh, do they come forward. And if they

00:36:43.060 do, I mean, I know lots of lawyers and judges who've said that, you know, if my daughter was

00:36:46.840 ever raped, I would not go through the process with her because she won't win. She'll just be 1.00

00:36:51.880 destroyed. So we, we talk about that. Um, and, and how, uh, it was, it was different for her as,

00:36:59.480 as a female lawyer who sees herself as a, as a feminist, even though she doesn't use that word, 1.00

00:37:04.860 um, to defend, uh, somebody like Gian Gomeschi. So, um, yeah, she was attacked as a woman and

00:37:14.080 also she was attacked as a woman for doing, uh, sexy photos of her, of her stuff. Like, really?

00:37:20.540 Like, it's just, I don't know, lawyers are, are supposed to all wear buttoned down suits. I don't

00:37:25.580 think so. So yeah, we talk about that sort of thing. Wendy, you've referenced social media a few

00:37:30.160 times here, and I do want to talk to you about just the nuts and bolts of news gathering,

00:37:34.320 reporting, how journalism has changed because increasingly I find, and while this has been

00:37:39.260 going on for maybe 10 years now, so many news stories now are just what's trending on social

00:37:43.220 media. Who said this on social media? Pretend everything, pretend life is 140 characters long.

00:37:48.700 You talked about the, the sort of viciousness that I guess we can sometimes be exposed to on there.

00:37:53.860 How has social media changed the general news media landscape and where is it headed?

00:37:59.840 Well, I remember back on my show undercurrents, which was like at least 20 years ago, um, boy,

00:38:09.140 20 odd years ago. And we did stories on the sort of the birth of, of social media and people's

00:38:15.200 fixations with celebrities. And, uh, I didn't realize that it would only explode from, from then.

00:38:21.940 And we sort of thought that, Oh, wow, look at this. Like everybody is, is obsessed now with what

00:38:27.280 celebrities are saying. Um, and now, you know, it's, it's the, Kim Kardashian's is the way too obvious

00:38:33.560 example, but it, it does seem that, uh, we're now being driven into these silos of which we've all

00:38:41.100 heard about the, um, uh, where we all hate each other. Um, as, uh, Roxanne Gay, who made a career

00:38:48.800 for herself on social media, uh, wrote a book recently saying, you know, it's, it's like everybody

00:38:54.220 is a hammer in search of a nail and that's, that's how it feels. Like I, I know that, uh, people don't

00:39:00.300 believe in objectivity anymore, but I still argue for that because I tried to be objective and people

00:39:06.080 would think that I, and obviously I do have personal opinions about things, but I always tried

00:39:10.320 to be fair to present two sides of an argument so that people could make, make up their own decision

00:39:17.300 about things. Um, and to me that was being objective and people would say, Oh no, no, no,

00:39:23.140 that doesn't make any sense. Just let everyone know what you think. And then they can figure out

00:39:27.880 whether they want to believe you or they want to believe somebody else. But that just basically

00:39:31.100 drives us into this polarized world that we're living in right now, where nobody even tries to tell

00:39:35.840 you, uh, what's actually happening. Instead, you just, you know, you read all your pals on whatever

00:39:40.960 social media posts you're on, or you read your, your favorite newspaper that supports what you want

00:39:45.440 to believe in. And, uh, and very few people make an effort to tell both sides of a story anymore. And,

00:39:51.760 uh, anyway, so it ends up that instead of talking to each other and trying to understand each other

00:39:56.740 and trying to learn from each other, uh, that we all hate each other, that we all say I'm right and

00:40:01.240 you're wrong, which is not very helpful. And it has led to the world that we're,

00:40:05.840 living in right now. On the other hand, you know, I remember being 12 years old and being so

00:40:12.560 bored. And if I had a question, I had to go to the library or look up on microfiche.

00:40:17.920 So, you know, it's way better that now I have an answer to, uh, Martha Mitchell. I remember her.

00:40:24.080 I just watched this series on gas lit on TV and Martha, John Mitchell and the whole Watergate thing.

00:40:28.820 Cause I'm a Watergate kid. It was happening when I was like 12, uh, and go back and read about that.

00:40:33.820 It's all on Google. I can watch stuff on YouTube. I can, if I'm on holidays, the first place I'll go

00:40:38.720 is Twitter because everything is there and I can put in a keyword and I can find stuff,

00:40:43.120 but I'm only being sent stuff that the algorithm says that I want to hear from. So, uh, I try and

00:40:49.960 keep my mind open and read people of all, you know, different opinions who I respect in different ways,

00:40:54.760 uh, to keep my brain full. Uh, so it's kind of wonderful. It's like, like I remember when video

00:41:00.060 games came along, that was going to kill it. You know, everybody was going to be a serial killer

00:41:03.580 because they were watching a video game. Or if you're old enough, you remember the debates about

00:41:08.120 how TV was going to ruin everyone's life and we're all going to become worse people. And, and maybe we

00:41:13.460 are, but TV, video games, and now social media for the last 20 years, um, they're kind of here to

00:41:20.300 stay. So I think we just have to, uh, try and find a way of still talking to each other and not

00:41:25.760 just talking to people that we agree with. Yeah. The whole, we're all hating each other thing.

00:41:30.100 I get the sense that traditional media is, is probably amplifying it or worsening it rather

00:41:34.620 than healing that. I don't know. Does traditional media even, does anyone even read that anymore?

00:41:41.360 Or listen to that anymore? I have to say yes in hopes that people are still buying the newspaper.

00:41:46.040 Well, I don't have to say anything because I have a podcast,

00:41:48.600 women of ill repute.com go and sign up. I don't have to say anything that I don't want to say

00:41:54.000 anymore, which is quite liberating. Cause that, you know, at, at CBC and certainly as a political

00:41:59.440 reporter, you weren't supposed to have, uh, a sense of humor or any political opinions about anything.

00:42:05.520 Whereas now you're, it seems, uh, even at CBC or, you know, we've, there are people who'd like

00:42:11.680 tweet stuff about going to, uh, following drag Queens. Well, if I'd done that one, not that that was my 0.95

00:42:17.460 thing, but if that had been my thing and I tweeted that, it would have created a huge sensation,

00:42:22.860 which I think, and I think it's good. Like, why shouldn't you be able to tweet whatever the,

00:42:27.800 whatever the heck you want?

00:42:29.020 There you go. Tweeting whatever the heck we want. And that's kind of where, where we found

00:42:35.720 ourselves at. Cause that's the state of social media, maybe the state.

00:42:38.860 Yeah, but we still need to talk to each other and listen to each other and learn from each other

00:42:42.540 and try and understand each other and maybe even forgive each other instead of just saying,

00:42:46.980 Oh, somebody said, they said this, so they're a bad person. And now I hate them. I don't think 0.85

00:42:51.640 that's very helpful. Have you been forgiven? Uh, I think a lot of people who actually

00:42:56.840 are familiar with my career and know that I devoted much of it to fighting corruption,

00:43:03.780 uh, fighting for the little guy, um, maybe not doing as well, obviously not doing as much as I

00:43:10.000 should have in terms of like, I remember, uh, I think I just left the Hill and Phil Fontaine started

00:43:15.440 talking about residential schools and I didn't, you know, stop and pay attention. Like I should

00:43:21.960 have paid attention to that. I, I, I said the N word without realizing, uh, that in any context,

00:43:28.340 it could hurt people. And that, did I really want to do that? Um, so, um, so yeah, I think we're,

00:43:35.140 we're all in a, in a, in a different spot now.

00:43:38.820 Wendy Mesley, it's been a great conversation. I admire your career. I admire your honesty.

00:43:42.720 Wendy, thank you very much. Well, thank you. Thank you, Anthony. That's it. Yeah. So women 1.00

00:43:46.960 of ill repute me and Maureen, she's a comedian. I'm a journalist, but we're both trying to be

00:43:51.600 honest. And, uh, that's, that's, that's the difference. So it's been lovely to talk to you.

00:43:55.400 Thank you so much. Likewise. All the best, Wendy. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Bye.

00:44:00.100 Full Comment is a post-media podcast. I'm Anthony Fury. This episode was produced by Andre Pru with

00:44:06.000 theme music by Bryce Hall. Kevin Libin is the executive producer. You can subscribe to Full

00:44:11.060 Comment on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, and Amazon Music. You can listen through the app or

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00:44:20.640 your friends about us. Thanks for listening.

Full Comment - July 25, 2022

‘Used by the CBC’： Wendy Mesley after the ‘n-word’ incident

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