00:01:24.500How is the reaction in the streets of Caracas when the government is not watching, when the regime is not controlling it?
00:01:32.060I think that there is a level, a high level of expectation, of relief.
00:01:40.060But we continue to, most of the people continue to be afraid because they are still putting in jail people that express their opinion.
00:01:52.440They did recently, they jailed 14 journalists that were just reporting about what was happening.
00:02:02.280And they released it after Delsi took the president and Maduro is out.
00:02:10.440But of those 14 journalists, 13 were not Venezuelan.
00:02:16.440And so the people, they are having a lot of checking, the cars, they stop you, people armed, to see your phone, to see if you have something in a certain way that you are commenting that is not pleasurable to them.
00:02:34.300So, we haven't had the people coming to the streets because they're still, the regime is still alive.
00:02:43.560You took the head of the regime and his wife, who are two of the main component of five or six people that run the business in Venezuela.
00:02:57.680But the other four are still in place.
00:03:00.160And it's logical that the one who is in charge of the president, who was a vice president, has reached an agreement with the United States that she complies completely, among other things, giving oil to the United States.
00:03:19.660There's a lot of boats that were here that were stocked.
00:03:23.300So, they will be transferred to the United States.
00:03:26.460They will be paid at market price, but will be kept in.
00:03:31.020Yeah, and I want to ask you about that in a moment, and Delsi Rodriguez in a moment.
00:03:36.360But, you know, you said that people are still afraid.
00:03:39.680I've heard stories about these groups called Collectivos.
00:03:43.980They are basically, you know, I would say, afraid, no, cautious, cautious, cautious, because there still is there Diosdado Cabello, who is the minister of the interior and who control all the police and all the repression mechanism is on his hands.
00:04:04.160And he has made some shows to make feel the people that they could be in problem if they profess some joy or satisfaction what happened.
00:04:21.500But I can assure you, I can assure you that more than 80% of the people are privately extremely happy by what happened.
00:04:33.120But concerned by the way that the transition to democracy is going to work, because it's full of uncertainty.
00:04:44.380And so, there is a question that I want to ask you first, though, Emilio.
00:04:49.360And that is, we've heard stories about these people called Collectivos, a paramilitary group.
00:04:56.900We're told they go around cities like Caracas on motorcycles, they're armed, and they will stop people, and they will, you know, ask to see their cell phones, check to see if they have messages, text messages, you know, social media posts that are supportive of the removal of Maduro or supportive of President Donald Trump.
00:05:19.080Or the opposition, or the opposition, or the opposition.
00:05:23.980Is that happening, or are the Western reports of that overblown?
00:05:28.860Well, it was happening the first days, the first days.
00:05:32.060The problem is that these presumed Collectivos were not really Collectivos.
00:05:40.360It was the people of the counterintelligence of the Ministry of the Interior that, instead of doing what they used to do with masks and all black and big rifles,
00:05:54.440they started to do it, but disguised as civilian, so to make people feeling that the Collectivos was working.
00:06:04.700The Collectivos were not moving at all.
00:06:07.340So they transformed this, it's called the DEGESIM, Contrainteligencia Militar, no?
00:06:15.140It's a body controlled by Diosdado Cabello, and they put it, strangely enough, the place where most of the things happened is very near of the quarters where this police body exists.
00:06:33.640So it wasn't really the paramilitary group, it was...
00:06:37.620It was not really an uprise, no, it was something disguised, but handled by the Diosdado Cabello, who is the only one who doesn't accept the agreement
00:06:54.580into areas that happened between the actual Vice President, the President in charge, and the US government.
00:07:03.720He's, we could say, he's a radical sector, and he's still, today, the Minister of the Interior, which is the Minister of the Interior,
00:07:16.700handled all the security bodies, police, and also what you call intelligence services.
00:07:25.620Okay, so I want to ask you about Delce Rodriguez, the fact that she is still in power, the fact that...
00:07:45.320The time is not ripped for that, you know?
00:07:47.920Okay, so this is what I wanted to ask you about, is, my understanding is that if they tried to put her in, the security services might just kill her.
00:07:56.000Yes, well, I think that they have first to stabilize the country in security terms.
00:08:02.200Because I believe, I believe, and I know, they are already in contact with key people in the army, which are willing, even there was a possibility that a military joint would have taken care of the country.
00:08:19.840You know, like, like, but they prefer, and I think it was wise.
00:08:28.100The junta is ready if Delce doesn't comply.
00:08:31.060And that has been handled because you have not been seen a real reaction from the army on the action that the American took.
00:08:41.160And the, but the best thing is that it is believed, and it has been, in a certain way, even expressed by some people in the United States, that Maduro was taken by the, by an information given by Delce RodrĂguez.
00:09:04.940So they wanted, so, as she was the successor, and they probably, in this.
00:09:13.640Do you believe that, that Delce RodrĂguez gave some information?
00:09:17.840Oh, yes, I believe, I certainly, I certainly, I certainly believe that.
00:09:21.780You know, they have a lot of relations since a long time with, how was Grenell, and they have channels which they couldn't form.
00:09:30.080And that's done against their freedom, because they have a lot of measure on her head, specifically her.
00:09:39.400And they, they believed that Maduro was not going to withdraw, because he was, even if he wanted, he was surrounded by more than 100 Cubans.
00:09:59.520And the Cubans, you know how they behave, they prefer him dead by them than in the hands of the states, because he knows too much.
00:10:26.420Because Maduro is a man that was like the president of Mexico, that in the youth were prepared by the Cubans.
00:10:33.920And Fidel Castro, when Chavez was dying in Cuba, they, I don't say they forced him, but they convinced him that the best man would be Maduro, a man that was firm in intelligence in Cuba.
00:10:53.100So he was, in a certain way, well, the word, perhaps, is excessive, but in a certain way, a puppet of the Cubans.
00:11:04.880And Cuba is such a smaller country than Venezuela.
00:11:07.420Yes, but they have intelligence service.
00:11:09.020They have prepared on repression, on police, and those things that they have been, through the years, they have managed to build up something which is a son of NKVD, or KGB, how do you call it, and Stasi of the German.
00:11:33.980This is why they keep their full repression in the island.
00:11:38.660And for them, Venezuela was the jewel of the crown, because they could not survive without the oil of Venezuela give them.
00:11:48.320Not only to make the electrical system work, but essentially, when they gave them every month's oil to Cuba, they used a pot in Cuba, and the rest is sold at the market, so that they could buy things that they need.
00:12:07.960So it was absolutely essential for them that Maduro stays in power.
00:12:14.040However, the RodrĂguez are not an element from the Cubans.
00:12:18.900They are what they are, special manipulators, quite intelligent, but they don't have the same origin than Maduro.
00:12:34.840So, and Diosdado Cabello, who came as a military, was really the one that, in opinion of the Chavismo, should have been the head, because he was part of the coup, and he was a military.
00:12:55.300So, it's a very strange melange, where you have different kinds of interests, and in a certain way, Maduro, by himself, had a lot of power, but he shared with the Minister of Defense, which is important to control the military, with the RodrĂguez, which controlled the parliament.
00:13:16.040And imagine the importance of the first in succession, the first in succession is her, who is the vice president, and you know who is the second in succession, if he dies or whatever, Jorge RodrĂguez, head of the parliament.
00:13:32.180So, they were really the two that, if something happened to Maduro, whatever, they would go in power.
00:13:41.440So, it was clear, when we saw the Operation La, you know, on January 3rd, it was clear that the Americans had some inside intelligence.
00:13:52.900More than inside, because they knew where he lived.
00:17:36.680It's the only way that you can stabilize being peace and make workable a country that is really in a condition, in a certain way, as bad as Haiti.
00:18:07.560You know, the professor of university, you see them begging almost, going to having whatever they can take because they don't have nothing.
00:18:19.640And I think the action that was planned, first of all, there has been a constant contact since a long time ago between Maria Corina and Rubio.
00:18:33.760And not—last week, all the team, they have very well prepared there.
00:18:40.060When they get to the government, they are very capable to run the country.
00:18:45.200But they were not in the condition to run the transition because the transition has a lot of things which are not very clear.
00:18:59.280But the steel, when you hold the arms and the repression mechanism in your hand, you are dangerous because you have the power of fire and the opposition has the power of ideas.
00:19:12.300And the people support them, but they don't have the arms either.
00:19:18.340So, the more effective way to do—and I know that a lot of Venezuelans are not satisfied with that—but I am convinced that this is the right way to do it.
00:19:35.840And the stabilization means that Diosdado Cabello, which has in his head $25 million, should be taken out because if he continues there, then we have a certain amount of problems, except if we have the Junta Militar.
00:19:56.140And you know how a Junta Militar doesn't have to cover—
00:20:00.220I don't think Donald Trump would appreciate that.
00:20:38.260I have to ask you this, the New York Times did have a piece that said Richard Grinnell and others did not believe that Machado was ready to take over and do the transition.
00:21:29.120So the shortest possible way is 90 days, as Rudio said, but I think it's more six months.
00:21:39.420Six months is a term that you can stabilize, the economy starts to grow, so you have a more stable.
00:21:49.700And the price of doing those things and ask the election, et cetera, it was difficult to put it in the head of a temporary president like the one who was elected.
00:22:04.520So I think that now Maria Corina understands that an election is going to happen.
00:22:10.820If an election is going to happen, and what Trump said yesterday was that all the political prisoners had to be free,
00:22:18.460and all the people that are outside, you know, the exile have to come back, and that means also Maria Corina, with guarantees,
00:22:29.180means that if an election is done, perhaps Delcey Rodrigo, whatever she wants to put, can go against them,
00:22:37.580but she will win the elections because she—
00:22:42.380Yes, she has not—she hadn't the control of the army, but she has a strong—you know, they don't allow to publish the service.
00:22:54.580And we have service, but we cannot publish.
00:22:57.580And she still has an enormous popular support, and now even more.
00:23:02.100So I'll leave you with this question, Emilio, and that is, you're old enough to remember when Venezuela was as free and as prosperous as somewhere like Canada.
00:23:15.300Not only that, I knew the end of the last dictatorship. I was 15 years old.
00:23:21.400So, but you remember when Venezuela was as free and prosperous as Canada. Do you believe that it will get there again?
00:23:27.120Oh, yes, I am certain. Because we have a certain advantage. The theme of the oil, that people speak without knowing what they're talking,
00:23:38.120to rebuild capacity, which is important for us, will need eight years, with an investment every year of $30,000 million.
00:23:50.320So, this is Venezuela cannot do it. The company will do it, but they need security, no problem of delinquency, of corruption.
00:24:03.880So, and in that sense, Maria Corina will be an example. She will not allow that.
00:24:09.020And she has the best people in this country, in all the sectors, is working with them.
00:24:16.080And they were meeting two weeks ago with the Secretary of Treasurer, with the IMF, with everyone.
00:24:22.980So, they are ready to do the job when they have the job.
00:24:28.320But the best thing is that Maria Corina wins the election.
00:24:32.100That will satisfy everyone, and they can compete.
00:24:35.080But, but we have to have the right of the free, the political.
00:24:40.240We have around 886 political prisoners.
00:24:50.820So, the best and the youngest head of things that they will free.
00:24:54.740They have 186 military in prison, because they were not supporting Maduro.
00:25:04.360And I believe that this has nothing to do with imperialism, because to produce Venezuela has a potential, but that potential needs investment.
00:25:15.640And I believe that what essentially Trump wants is to take out the Chinese, and the Russian, and the Iran people from Venezuela.
00:25:25.540That Europe, and the States, and Canada, whatever, can invest, but not those competitors in geopolitical terms with them.
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00:27:00.500This is Tristan Hopper, the host of Canada Did What?
00:27:03.080Where we unpack the biggest, weirdest, and wildest political moments in Canadian history you thought you knew and tell you what really happened.
00:27:11.360Stick around at the end of the episode to hear a sample of one of our favorite episodes.
00:27:15.840If you don't want to stick around, make sure you subscribe to Canada Did What? everywhere you get podcasts.
00:27:22.460Freddy Guevara became involved in politics as a student in the early 2000s.
00:27:25.940By 2015, he was an elected member of the Venezuelan National Assembly, part of the Democratic Unity Roundtable.
00:27:33.700That's a coalition of politicians opposed to the regimes of Hugo Chavez and then Nicolas Maduro.
00:27:39.580A fierce opponent of Maduro, he was placed in jail, accused of ties to violent gangs,
00:27:45.640eventually put in solitary confinement, all for speaking out against the regime.
00:27:49.780He was eventually released and moved to the United States, where he's studying and lecturing at Harvard University's Kennedy School.
00:30:04.020We went to the International Criminal Court.
00:30:05.760And the attorney, you know, the attorney that was in charge of the case was disbanded because his sister-in-law was the attorney of Maduro.
00:30:16.720We tried the Organization of American States.