Full Comment - What Venezuelans say about Trump’s incursion isn’t what we’ve been told

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00:00:17.440 Venezuela and what comes next after Maduro?

00:00:20.500 Along with the questions about the future of Iran, Venezuela is one of the top issues in global politics.

00:00:25.960 And today, we've got a stellar episode for you.

00:00:28.740 Hello and welcome to the Full Comment Podcast.

00:00:31.120 My name is Brian Lilly, your host.

00:00:32.580 And today, we bring you my conversations with two different people who both have vast experience in Venezuelan politics.

00:00:40.020 One of them is a journalist still on the ground in Caracas with decades of experience covering politics.

00:00:45.780 And the other, a former politician on the opposition side who was once jailed by Maduro's regime before escaping to the United States.

00:00:54.160 Emilio Figueredo is editor of Analytica, a news website that's been covering politics in that country since the mid-1990s.

00:01:01.800 He's seen the ups and downs of his country and takes a patient view of what should and could come next for his country.

00:01:08.500 Here is our conversation.

00:01:10.060 So, Emilio, here we are a week after the arrest, the abduction, whatever, the extraction of Niccolo Maduro, however you want to phrase it.

00:01:21.820 How do you feel about that?

00:01:24.500 How is the reaction in the streets of Caracas when the government is not watching, when the regime is not controlling it?

00:01:32.060 I think that there is a level, a high level of expectation, of relief.

00:01:40.060 But we continue to, most of the people continue to be afraid because they are still putting in jail people that express their opinion.

00:01:52.440 They did recently, they jailed 14 journalists that were just reporting about what was happening.

00:02:02.280 And they released it after Delsi took the president and Maduro is out.

00:02:10.440 But of those 14 journalists, 13 were not Venezuelan.

00:02:16.440 And so the people, they are having a lot of checking, the cars, they stop you, people armed, to see your phone, to see if you have something in a certain way that you are commenting that is not pleasurable to them.

00:02:34.300 So, we haven't had the people coming to the streets because they're still, the regime is still alive.

00:02:43.560 You took the head of the regime and his wife, who are two of the main component of five or six people that run the business in Venezuela.

00:02:57.680 But the other four are still in place.

00:03:00.160 And it's logical that the one who is in charge of the president, who was a vice president, has reached an agreement with the United States that she complies completely, among other things, giving oil to the United States.

00:03:19.660 There's a lot of boats that were here that were stocked.

00:03:23.300 So, they will be transferred to the United States.

00:03:26.460 They will be paid at market price, but will be kept in.

00:03:31.020 Yeah, and I want to ask you about that in a moment, and Delsi Rodriguez in a moment.

00:03:36.360 But, you know, you said that people are still afraid.

00:03:39.680 I've heard stories about these groups called Collectivos.

00:03:43.980 They are basically, you know, I would say, afraid, no, cautious, cautious, cautious, because there still is there Diosdado Cabello, who is the minister of the interior and who control all the police and all the repression mechanism is on his hands.

00:04:04.160 And he has made some shows to make feel the people that they could be in problem if they profess some joy or satisfaction what happened.

00:04:21.500 But I can assure you, I can assure you that more than 80% of the people are privately extremely happy by what happened.

00:04:33.120 But concerned by the way that the transition to democracy is going to work, because it's full of uncertainty.

00:04:44.380 And so, there is a question that I want to ask you first, though, Emilio.

00:04:49.360 And that is, we've heard stories about these people called Collectivos, a paramilitary group.

00:04:56.900 We're told they go around cities like Caracas on motorcycles, they're armed, and they will stop people, and they will, you know, ask to see their cell phones, check to see if they have messages, text messages, you know, social media posts that are supportive of the removal of Maduro or supportive of President Donald Trump.

00:05:19.080 Or the opposition, or the opposition, or the opposition.

00:05:21.120 And then, if so, jail them.

00:05:23.980 Is that happening, or are the Western reports of that overblown?

00:05:28.860 Well, it was happening the first days, the first days.

00:05:32.060 The problem is that these presumed Collectivos were not really Collectivos.

00:05:40.360 It was the people of the counterintelligence of the Ministry of the Interior that, instead of doing what they used to do with masks and all black and big rifles,

00:05:54.440 they started to do it, but disguised as civilian, so to make people feeling that the Collectivos was working.

00:06:04.700 The Collectivos were not moving at all.

00:06:07.340 So they transformed this, it's called the DEGESIM, Contrainteligencia Militar, no?

00:06:15.140 It's a body controlled by Diosdado Cabello, and they put it, strangely enough, the place where most of the things happened is very near of the quarters where this police body exists.

00:06:31.800 So they were trying to...

00:06:33.640 So it wasn't really the paramilitary group, it was...

00:06:37.620 It was not really an uprise, no, it was something disguised, but handled by the Diosdado Cabello, who is the only one who doesn't accept the agreement

00:06:54.580 into areas that happened between the actual Vice President, the President in charge, and the US government.

00:07:03.720 He's, we could say, he's a radical sector, and he's still, today, the Minister of the Interior, which is the Minister of the Interior,

00:07:16.700 handled all the security bodies, police, and also what you call intelligence services.

00:07:25.620 Okay, so I want to ask you about Delce Rodriguez, the fact that she is still in power, the fact that... 0.92

00:07:31.760 Temporary, I would say.

00:07:33.720 Maria Carino Machado is not.

00:07:36.880 You've heard some, you know, expressions of concern in the American media, I'm sure, saying, well, why didn't you install Machado?

00:07:44.200 Because it's not...

00:07:45.000 My understanding is...

00:07:45.320 The time is not ripped for that, you know?

00:07:47.920 Okay, so this is what I wanted to ask you about, is, my understanding is that if they tried to put her in, the security services might just kill her.

00:07:56.000 Yes, well, I think that they have first to stabilize the country in security terms.

00:08:02.200 Because I believe, I believe, and I know, they are already in contact with key people in the army, which are willing, even there was a possibility that a military joint would have taken care of the country.

00:08:19.840 You know, like, like, but they prefer, and I think it was wise.

00:08:23.680 Like, like, like a junta.

00:08:25.440 Like a junta, yes.

00:08:26.560 The junta is ready.

00:08:28.100 The junta is ready if Delce doesn't comply.

00:08:31.060 And that has been handled because you have not been seen a real reaction from the army on the action that the American took.

00:08:41.160 And the, but the best thing is that it is believed, and it has been, in a certain way, even expressed by some people in the United States, that Maduro was taken by the, by an information given by Delce Rodríguez.

00:09:04.940 So they wanted, so, as she was the successor, and they probably, in this.

00:09:13.640 Do you believe that, that Delce Rodríguez gave some information?

00:09:17.840 Oh, yes, I believe, I certainly, I certainly, I certainly believe that.

00:09:21.780 You know, they have a lot of relations since a long time with, how was Grenell, and they have channels which they couldn't form.

00:09:30.080 And that's done against their freedom, because they have a lot of measure on her head, specifically her. 0.97

00:09:39.400 And they, they believed that Maduro was not going to withdraw, because he was, even if he wanted, he was surrounded by more than 100 Cubans.

00:09:59.520 And the Cubans, you know how they behave, they prefer him dead by them than in the hands of the states, because he knows too much. 0.92

00:10:08.500 So that, uh, if you see the way...

00:10:12.660 So, hold on, I have to stop you and ask you that.

00:10:16.680 The Cubans would prefer Maduro dead...

00:10:19.840 Yes. 0.55

00:10:21.400 ...than with the Americans...

00:10:22.840 Of course.

00:10:22.900 ...because he knows too much about...

00:10:24.500 ...about what?

00:10:26.420 Because Maduro is a man that was like the president of Mexico, that in the youth were prepared by the Cubans. 0.81

00:10:33.920 And Fidel Castro, when Chavez was dying in Cuba, they, I don't say they forced him, but they convinced him that the best man would be Maduro, a man that was firm in intelligence in Cuba.

00:10:53.100 So he was, in a certain way, well, the word, perhaps, is excessive, but in a certain way, a puppet of the Cubans. 0.67

00:11:03.320 And he was not...

00:11:04.880 And Cuba is such a smaller country than Venezuela.

00:11:07.420 Yes, but they have intelligence service.

00:11:09.020 They have prepared on repression, on police, and those things that they have been, through the years, they have managed to build up something which is a son of NKVD, or KGB, how do you call it, and Stasi of the German. 0.65

00:11:31.000 So they are competent in that field.

00:11:33.980 This is why they keep their full repression in the island.

00:11:38.660 And for them, Venezuela was the jewel of the crown, because they could not survive without the oil of Venezuela give them.

00:11:48.320 Not only to make the electrical system work, but essentially, when they gave them every month's oil to Cuba, they used a pot in Cuba, and the rest is sold at the market, so that they could buy things that they need.

00:12:07.960 So it was absolutely essential for them that Maduro stays in power.

00:12:14.040 However, the Rodríguez are not an element from the Cubans.

00:12:18.900 They are what they are, special manipulators, quite intelligent, but they don't have the same origin than Maduro.

00:12:34.840 So, and Diosdado Cabello, who came as a military, was really the one that, in opinion of the Chavismo, should have been the head, because he was part of the coup, and he was a military.

00:12:55.300 So, it's a very strange melange, where you have different kinds of interests, and in a certain way, Maduro, by himself, had a lot of power, but he shared with the Minister of Defense, which is important to control the military, with the Rodríguez, which controlled the parliament.

00:13:16.040 And imagine the importance of the first in succession, the first in succession is her, who is the vice president, and you know who is the second in succession, if he dies or whatever, Jorge Rodríguez, head of the parliament.

00:13:32.180 So, they were really the two that, if something happened to Maduro, whatever, they would go in power.

00:13:41.440 So, it was clear, when we saw the Operation La, you know, on January 3rd, it was clear that the Americans had some inside intelligence.

00:13:52.900 More than inside, because they knew where he lived.

00:13:57.160 He lived in a bunker.

00:13:59.640 It's a house, but it's a bunker.

00:14:01.040 On a military base, I understand.

00:14:04.460 Surrounded by Cuban security officials.

00:14:06.720 But he has no Venezuelan in his security.

00:14:09.240 He doesn't trust the Venezuelans. 0.99

00:14:11.440 So, his security is totally, the Cuban has admitted.

00:14:15.440 So, is that because Venezuelans were done with Maduro?

00:14:21.200 Well, if you see the election of 2024, the elected president won in all places.

00:14:33.880 They didn't, he didn't lose in one.

00:14:36.580 And in the army quarters, he won also.

00:14:39.280 So, most of the military there voted for him.

00:14:44.740 As a vote is a secret, they cannot grasp who it is.

00:14:50.380 But it is clear that they were not satisfied.

00:14:55.800 And it was, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was 67% in favor of the opposition, 30% in favor of the euro.

00:15:05.560 Yes, that's the result.

00:15:06.620 And if, Maria, if the Venezuelans, the 8 or 9 million people that would have vote, the difference would have been 80 to 20 or more.

00:15:16.260 Because those outside are, in a big majority, against him.

00:15:22.380 We've got a fair-sized Venezuelan community here in Canada.

00:15:27.820 And you don't see nobody crying for Maduro.

00:15:32.440 Nobody crying for Maduro.

00:15:34.340 We've got a bigger Venezuelan community in the United States.

00:15:38.940 And they don't cry for Maduro.

00:15:40.520 In Spain.

00:15:41.880 No.

00:15:43.080 As Andrew Lloyd Webber said, don't cry for me, Argentina.

00:15:46.240 Nobody's crying for Maduro.

00:15:47.480 Certainly nobody, not even them, the ones in power in this moment.

00:15:52.860 But in power, temporarily.

00:15:55.120 What is your view then?

00:15:57.220 I mean, of the Trump administration saying, we're going to run Venezuela for the time being.

00:16:05.080 We've seen them take the—

00:16:06.120 That's important, for the time being.

00:16:07.700 And it's very well expressed.

00:16:09.380 You know that Trump is not so—

00:16:11.340 Okay, then please explain that.

00:16:13.940 Because there's a lot of—hold on, just a second, Emilio.

00:16:17.160 If I can set the table first.

00:16:20.640 There's a lot of people in Canada, in the United States, saying, well, this is imperialism.

00:16:26.740 This is Donald Trump just trying to take everything out of Venezuela.

00:16:30.680 He will never give up power.

00:16:33.020 There should be elections within 30 days.

00:16:35.700 And he won't do that.

00:16:37.920 What do you say to those people who are skeptical?

00:16:41.240 I'm concerned about what comes next.

00:16:43.940 But I'm willing to give them some time.

00:16:46.140 You have to listen not so much to Trump.

00:16:49.360 You know, sometimes he improvise.

00:16:52.400 And he improvise.

00:16:54.960 And he confuse.

00:16:56.080 Delcy with Maria Corina in one moment in his speech.

00:16:59.160 When he was not reading a text, but he was improvising.

00:17:05.660 The key guy is the Secretary of State.

00:17:10.040 And he's—

00:17:10.600 Marco Rubio.

00:17:11.160 And Marco Rubio is the one who is running.

00:17:13.040 Yes, he hexes it and that Miller, which I don't want to make any comment about him.

00:17:21.920 But in any case, what Rubio said yesterday, he defined very clearly the three stages.

00:17:30.400 I believe the first one had to be done as he has ever done.

00:17:35.320 It's not imperialism.

00:17:36.680 It's the only way that you can stabilize being peace and make workable a country that is really in a condition, in a certain way, as bad as Haiti.

00:17:51.680 It's very—it's very—it's impressible.

00:17:54.140 You cannot imagine.

00:17:55.200 As I tell it, it's difficult to the people to know what Venezuela was, what Venezuela is today.

00:18:03.700 Today, there is no medium class.

00:18:06.280 Medium class is poor now.

00:18:07.560 You know, the professor of university, you see them begging almost, going to having whatever they can take because they don't have nothing.

00:18:18.320 We don't have nothing.

00:18:19.640 And I think the action that was planned, first of all, there has been a constant contact since a long time ago between Maria Corina and Rubio.

00:18:33.760 And not—last week, all the team, they have very well prepared there.

00:18:40.060 When they get to the government, they are very capable to run the country.

00:18:45.200 But they were not in the condition to run the transition because the transition has a lot of things which are not very clear.

00:18:53.380 This is not Syria. 0.84

00:18:54.900 This is not Afghanistan.

00:18:56.800 This is not Iraq. 0.87

00:18:58.480 This is a condition.

00:18:59.280 But the steel, when you hold the arms and the repression mechanism in your hand, you are dangerous because you have the power of fire and the opposition has the power of ideas.

00:19:12.300 And the people support them, but they don't have the arms either.

00:19:18.340 So, the more effective way to do—and I know that a lot of Venezuelans are not satisfied with that—but I am convinced that this is the right way to do it.

00:19:34.300 First, stabilize.

00:19:35.840 And the stabilization means that Diosdado Cabello, which has in his head $25 million, should be taken out because if he continues there, then we have a certain amount of problems, except if we have the Junta Militar.

00:19:56.140 And you know how a Junta Militar doesn't have to cover—

00:20:00.220 I don't think Donald Trump would appreciate that.

00:20:03.240 What?

00:20:03.660 A military control.

00:20:04.640 No, no, no, certainly not.

00:20:07.340 But perhaps it's a temporary option.

00:20:10.720 But I think the best is working as they are doing now.

00:20:14.920 There is a lot—there are certain things that is necessary to see, and Trump has insisted that freedom of political prisoners.

00:20:23.480 Well, they are already dismantled the big torture place.

00:20:28.820 They have started to dismantle yesterday, but they haven't freed the political prisoners.

00:20:36.960 And Trump has said that.

00:20:38.260 I have to ask you this, the New York Times did have a piece that said Richard Grinnell and others did not believe that Machado was ready to take over and do the transition.

00:20:49.960 Do there have to be elections?

00:20:54.120 Do they just put her or—

00:20:56.300 No, no. I am sure that now Maria Corina understood that you have to have the transition, prepare, and have elections. 1.00

00:21:04.160 Not very late, but you have to put the condition that—

00:21:09.500 So when do you think elections will be or should be?

00:21:11.760 Yeah, I say less than six months from now.

00:21:17.780 Because—

00:21:18.260 Okay.

00:21:18.960 And the shortest is the best for all, but it depends on the control.

00:21:24.580 So if—

00:21:25.360 But 30 days is too short.

00:21:27.020 No, 30 days is impossible.

00:21:29.120 So the shortest possible way is 90 days, as Rudio said, but I think it's more six months.

00:21:39.420 Six months is a term that you can stabilize, the economy starts to grow, so you have a more stable.

00:21:49.700 And the price of doing those things and ask the election, et cetera, it was difficult to put it in the head of a temporary president like the one who was elected.

00:22:04.520 So I think that now Maria Corina understands that an election is going to happen. 1.00

00:22:10.820 If an election is going to happen, and what Trump said yesterday was that all the political prisoners had to be free,

00:22:18.460 and all the people that are outside, you know, the exile have to come back, and that means also Maria Corina, with guarantees,

00:22:29.180 means that if an election is done, perhaps Delcey Rodrigo, whatever she wants to put, can go against them, 0.98

00:22:37.580 but she will win the elections because she— 0.58

00:22:41.820 Maria Corina will.

00:22:42.380 Yes, she has not—she hadn't the control of the army, but she has a strong—you know, they don't allow to publish the service.

00:22:54.580 And we have service, but we cannot publish.

00:22:57.580 And she still has an enormous popular support, and now even more.

00:23:02.100 So I'll leave you with this question, Emilio, and that is, you're old enough to remember when Venezuela was as free and as prosperous as somewhere like Canada.

00:23:15.300 Not only that, I knew the end of the last dictatorship. I was 15 years old.

00:23:21.400 So, but you remember when Venezuela was as free and prosperous as Canada. Do you believe that it will get there again?

00:23:27.120 Oh, yes, I am certain. Because we have a certain advantage. The theme of the oil, that people speak without knowing what they're talking,

00:23:38.120 to rebuild capacity, which is important for us, will need eight years, with an investment every year of $30,000 million.

00:23:50.320 So, this is Venezuela cannot do it. The company will do it, but they need security, no problem of delinquency, of corruption.

00:24:03.880 So, and in that sense, Maria Corina will be an example. She will not allow that.

00:24:09.020 And she has the best people in this country, in all the sectors, is working with them.

00:24:16.080 And they were meeting two weeks ago with the Secretary of Treasurer, with the IMF, with everyone.

00:24:22.980 So, they are ready to do the job when they have the job.

00:24:28.320 But the best thing is that Maria Corina wins the election.

00:24:32.100 That will satisfy everyone, and they can compete.

00:24:35.080 But, but we have to have the right of the free, the political.

00:24:40.240 We have around 886 political prisoners.

00:24:45.900 Among them, the frame of the army.

00:24:50.820 So, the best and the youngest head of things that they will free.

00:24:54.740 They have 186 military in prison, because they were not supporting Maduro.

00:25:04.360 And I believe that this has nothing to do with imperialism, because to produce Venezuela has a potential, but that potential needs investment.

00:25:15.640 And I believe that what essentially Trump wants is to take out the Chinese, and the Russian, and the Iran people from Venezuela.

00:25:25.540 That Europe, and the States, and Canada, whatever, can invest, but not those competitors in geopolitical terms with them.

00:25:36.560 So, Venezuela is a mature country.

00:25:40.480 And even the words of Trump are disliked by most Venezuelans.

00:25:47.200 But we could not have done this success without what happened the 3rd of January.

00:25:55.480 It was impossible.

00:25:56.660 Emilio, thank you very much.

00:25:58.420 I don't know if I put it clear, but I think Venezuela will be a good partner.

00:26:05.040 And a good partner, not only with the United States, but also with Canada and with Europe.

00:26:12.960 Because that's the mind of Maria Corina. 0.99

00:26:15.800 You have made it very clear.

00:26:17.620 Thank you very much.

00:26:18.520 I hope that was helpful what I said.

00:26:21.020 A quick break, but when we come back, my conversation with Freddy Guevara, a former member of the Venezuelan National Assembly.

00:26:28.500 Back in moments.

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00:27:00.500 This is Tristan Hopper, the host of Canada Did What?

00:27:03.080 Where we unpack the biggest, weirdest, and wildest political moments in Canadian history you thought you knew and tell you what really happened.

00:27:11.360 Stick around at the end of the episode to hear a sample of one of our favorite episodes.

00:27:15.840 If you don't want to stick around, make sure you subscribe to Canada Did What? everywhere you get podcasts.

00:27:22.460 Freddy Guevara became involved in politics as a student in the early 2000s.

00:27:25.940 By 2015, he was an elected member of the Venezuelan National Assembly, part of the Democratic Unity Roundtable.

00:27:33.700 That's a coalition of politicians opposed to the regimes of Hugo Chavez and then Nicolas Maduro.

00:27:39.580 A fierce opponent of Maduro, he was placed in jail, accused of ties to violent gangs,

00:27:45.640 eventually put in solitary confinement, all for speaking out against the regime.

00:27:49.780 He was eventually released and moved to the United States, where he's studying and lecturing at Harvard University's Kennedy School.

00:27:57.400 Here is our conversation.

00:27:59.540 So, Freddy, let me ask you, as a former member of the Venezuelan Parliament, as an expatriate living in the United States right now,

00:28:06.300 how did you feel when you woke up on the morning of January 3rd and heard what happened?

00:28:10.460 I know that it might be surprising for many people, but, like, we felt happy.

00:28:16.640 We felt happy because Maduro was out.

00:28:19.920 And, of course, no one would like to see their country being bombed.

00:28:23.340 However, what we were hearing at that moment is that it was a very, like, targeted operation

00:28:30.560 and that it was successful in the way that it captured the people that has been butchering

00:28:36.400 many of our Venezuelans' friends and families and people and millions of Venezuelans that are not outside.

00:28:42.600 So, you know, I think this reflects how desperate Venezuelans are, 0.98

00:28:47.800 that even I know someone whose house was affected.

00:28:50.680 And they told me, like, you know what, you know, if this is a price, I'm very happy to pay it

00:28:56.280 because what we've been suffering has been, like, you know, very tough,

00:29:01.400 very tough for millions of Venezuelans all around the world, but particularly in Venezuela.

00:29:06.500 So having their home damaged was acceptable over having their life continue to be damaged.

00:29:11.900 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:13.260 And it's, of course, nobody will like that, right?

00:29:16.980 We fought for many years for a different outcome.

00:29:20.180 It's not like we said one day, oh, we want Maduro out, so let's get the Americans to take him.

00:29:28.600 You know, we've been fighting for so long, 25 years, but if we just count the Maduro era since 2013,

00:29:36.900 at least 12 years trying to do negotiations, winning elections that we won twice.

00:29:44.780 We won two-thirds of the parliament.

00:29:46.360 I was vice president of the parliament because we won with two-thirds of the parliament.

00:29:50.440 That's why he then closed it and then went after me twice.

00:29:54.460 We tried international mediation.

00:29:56.920 We tried national mediation.

00:29:59.080 We even went to the United Nations.

00:30:01.960 China and Russia vetoed everything.

00:30:04.020 We went to the International Criminal Court.

00:30:05.760 And the attorney, you know, the attorney that was in charge of the case was disbanded because his sister-in-law was the attorney of Maduro.

00:30:16.720 We tried the Organization of American States.

00:30:19.260 Nothing worked.

00:30:20.200 And we then tried that progressive governments that were kind of close to Maduro, like Lula in Brazil,

00:30:25.200 Pedro in Colombia, and Claudia Chamberlain in Mexico, mediated after he stole the election and none of them helped.

00:30:31.700 And at the end, Lula says his infamous words like, I am not going to keep trying.

00:30:35.800 Venezuela is a problem of Venezuelans. 1.00

00:30:37.740 So I think what I'm trying to say is like, don't be surprised if after all of this happens,

00:30:43.920 Venezuelans are happy that an international government, in this case the United States,

00:30:48.800 came and captured the people that has been butchering us.

00:30:52.080 So let me ask you then, you're describing all these international channels that you used or attempted to use,

00:31:01.980 and none of them worked.

00:31:03.520 And yet we've got people in places like Canada, Western Europe, the United States saying,

00:31:10.740 oh my goodness, oh, this violates international law.

00:31:15.280 How dare you?

00:31:16.640 You tried the international law route and you got nothing.

00:31:21.300 Yeah, I'm going to find who said this because he's a Venezuelan and I would like to quote him,

00:31:27.500 but I saw it in social media.

00:31:29.480 He said, if the international order couldn't protect me or my friends from being captured and tortured,

00:31:37.360 but can't protect Maduro from being captured and facing a fair trial,

00:31:42.740 then it's not just that the international order is not working,

00:31:47.200 it's that it's working against me.

00:31:48.760 And I agree with that.

00:31:50.540 I'm not saying that I don't believe in norms.

00:31:52.200 Of course, I would like a different world.

00:31:54.060 But what I'm saying is like, you know,

00:31:56.500 it's not fair to defend an international order that has failed Venezuelans, 0.56

00:32:02.500 but not only Venezuelans.

00:32:03.620 It has failed people in Gaza, people in Myanmar, people in Israel,

00:32:08.340 people in half of Africa,

00:32:10.720 and will probably fail people in Ukraine and in Taiwan, you know,

00:32:15.380 because this international order that we have now

00:32:17.800 is not protecting the people that have been oppressed.

00:32:20.960 I've long tried to tell Canadians who they've got a view of the United Nations 0.70

00:32:28.060 and the international order that I say you're looking at it through rose-colored glasses.

00:32:33.460 And I say that as someone who wants to support and believe in multilateralism

00:32:38.240 and all these things that they have the potential for good,

00:32:43.420 but they don't live up to their potential.

00:32:45.680 And that sounds to me like what you're saying happened with you.

00:32:50.040 And I think, like, I mean, maybe we just have to evaluate the United Nations for what it is.

00:32:55.980 It's just like, you know, to prevent global wars, right?

00:33:01.620 But how can you...

00:33:03.700 Has it worked in Ukraine?

00:33:05.320 Yeah, I mean, you could say in a very scenic way that at least it's just in Ukraine,

00:33:10.060 but that's why I mean global wars, right?

00:33:12.540 I mean, maybe that's it.

00:33:13.660 Maybe that's the role.

00:33:14.460 But can we trust the United Nations in this formal way when China and Russia can veto everything

00:33:22.640 to prevent humanitarian disasters or autocracies being oppressing people?

00:33:28.520 Of course not, right?

00:33:30.100 So I don't know.

00:33:32.020 I'm not saying that we have to give up on the United Nations.

00:33:34.500 For sure, I'm not saying that we have to give up on the international order.

00:33:37.320 But maybe the time that, you know, democratic nations as Canada try to form an organization

00:33:45.300 that is there to preserve the human rights and democracy.

00:33:50.960 Because, I mean, it's a joke that in the Human Rights Committee, it's Cuba, Iran, you know, Syria.

00:33:59.420 That's a joke.

00:34:00.380 I mean, come on.

00:34:01.380 I remember talking to our former Foreign Affairs Minister, John Baird, about this.

00:34:07.340 And one of the nations you mentioned had just risen to the top.

00:34:11.860 And I said, how did they get there?

00:34:14.420 And he said, it's done alphabetically.

00:34:18.320 And I laughed.

00:34:19.560 And I couldn't believe it.

00:34:20.700 And he said, no, Brian, that's true.

00:34:22.960 It's just, it's your turn.

00:34:24.960 So it doesn't matter that you're a human rights abuser.

00:34:28.620 Alphabetically, you're next.

00:34:30.420 So you get to run it.

00:34:32.020 Yeah, yeah.

00:34:32.440 Let me get back to Venezuela, though.

00:34:36.600 You were a parliamentarian.

00:34:39.020 You were president of the parliament.

00:34:41.500 But you also ended up being a political prisoner.

00:34:44.380 How did that happen?

00:34:45.400 And what was that experience like?

00:34:46.980 How long were you jailed for?

00:34:49.080 What were the conditions?

00:34:50.640 When I was vice president of the parliament, Maduro tried to close the parliament.

00:34:55.680 So we called people in the streets.

00:34:57.340 We were protesting with them.

00:34:58.880 And then Maduro went after me the first time.

00:35:01.560 Before the police arrived to my place, I was able to escape.

00:35:05.560 And the Chilean government gave me protection in the house of the ambassador.

00:35:11.280 So I stood there in three years of house arrest.

00:35:14.140 That was the first time.

00:35:15.200 And then there was a negotiation process between the opposition and the regime.

00:35:21.860 And kind of 100 political prisoners or persecuted people were released.

00:35:27.660 I was part of a batch.

00:35:29.780 And then four months later, they put me in jail again.

00:35:32.740 But this time, they captured me.

00:35:34.780 And they put me in a prison.

00:35:36.800 I was for 38 days without seeing the sun.

00:35:40.600 Well, actually, I saw the sun three times in a cell that had no windows, no air, natural air.

00:35:47.600 I mean, we were kind of in isolated, you know, confinement.

00:35:53.500 And of course, with no rights at all.

00:35:55.860 Maduro has...

00:35:56.560 I wore the same outfit, you know, the orange thing that Maduro was wearing with the same cuffs.

00:36:02.340 Only also like in the feet.

00:36:04.580 And we didn't have the right to defend ourselves, unlike he's having it now.

00:36:10.320 So, of course, the conditions were harsh.

00:36:13.300 An experience that I would not recommend to anyone.

00:36:15.800 However, I have to say that I am one of the few lucky ones that is free now.

00:36:20.800 That it's alive.

00:36:22.460 And that I have all my links.

00:36:24.980 I have friends that were tortured.

00:36:26.580 I know people who were raped.

00:36:28.580 I know people who have back problems, bone problems because of the tortures they receive.

00:36:33.800 And all of us has PTSD, for sure, and trauma.

00:36:37.880 So, all of us have psychologically be affected and emotionally be affected.

00:36:41.620 However, I have to say that I feel lucky because even though all of these things happened to me,

00:36:48.000 I'm alive and I am free and I can tell this story.

00:36:55.540 So, that's your experience as an elected official, as a parliamentarian.

00:37:02.120 Yeah.

00:37:02.280 And that is horrific.

00:37:04.880 That should not be happening.

00:37:08.060 What is life like or what was life like under Maduro for the average Venezuelan?

00:37:15.100 Because this is a country that I'm old enough to remember it being one of the wealthiest,

00:37:22.300 if not the wealthiest in South America.

00:37:24.680 It was a country in line with Canada in terms of standards of living, in terms of GDP per capita.

00:37:35.500 You know, all of the standards that we would look to to say,

00:37:38.500 do you have a free and prosperous life?

00:37:40.560 Venezuela was there.

00:37:42.100 Yeah.

00:37:42.500 And you lost that.

00:37:44.540 What was it like under Maduro for the average Venezuelan?

00:37:48.280 I would say that, before getting into that point, that even though all you're saying is true,

00:37:58.820 Venezuelans elected Chavez.

00:38:00.520 And what I mean with this is like, of course, we're in a perfect society.

00:38:10.440 We have problems, of course.

00:38:11.760 We had inequality.

00:38:12.660 We had a lot of issues.

00:38:14.100 But what I'm saying here is that non-democracy is safe.

00:38:18.520 And in the last years, and this is something I've been learning in my work now at Harvard University,

00:38:24.560 because since I'm in exile, I've been working there, particularly studying autocracies.

00:38:29.260 Nowadays, most autocrats are elected.

00:38:33.560 They don't come from coup d'etat.

00:38:35.460 They are elected by the people.

00:38:37.300 And from within the institutions, they start dismantling them.

00:38:40.580 So I think my first cautionary tale will be like, you know,

00:38:44.240 yes, Venezuela was all like this.

00:38:46.060 And still, someone like Chavez will rise to power.

00:38:50.060 He was elected.

00:38:51.280 And from within, he started dismantling the institutions and allowing us to have a state

00:38:56.600 that was captured by all these mafias, international actors, bad actors, 0.97

00:39:01.560 that allowed Maduro to become what he became.

00:39:04.120 Because Chavez died and then Maduro came into power with a fake election.

00:39:09.720 So since Maduro started in power, I think like,

00:39:12.560 I think the difference between Chavez and Maduro,

00:39:16.240 I'm not judging their, how would I say, their intentions, right?

00:39:19.460 I cannot judge if one was better than the other.

00:39:21.760 I think both were pretty bad.

00:39:23.480 But I would say like in terms of how people were living,

00:39:26.660 you had a very big difference because,

00:39:29.060 A, you had big prices of oil during the Chavez era.

00:39:32.420 And he still, he had popularity.

00:39:36.520 So when an autocrat has popularity, he uses, he needs to use less of repression.

00:39:44.200 And he needs to use less of the other tools that impedes people to take him out of power

00:39:50.860 because his main source of power is the people itself.

00:39:54.480 So yes, you face...

00:39:55.620 Did Chavez use that high price of oil to actually benefit the people of Venezuela?

00:40:00.000 Did people feel like they, okay, so they elected this guy who is an autocrat,

00:40:05.840 who proposed socialism, which they had voted for.

00:40:10.640 But did he use his power to take those high oil prices

00:40:14.860 and distribute wealth to provide services to people?

00:40:18.720 Or was he, like Maduro, hoarding it?

00:40:21.580 Both. Both things can be true at the same time. 0.97

00:40:26.140 And what I mean is like a lot of cash transfer, not cash transfer, sorry,

00:40:29.600 but like social programs were created and a lot of money came into the country.

00:40:35.280 But the biggest corruption that ever happened in our hemisphere

00:40:39.720 occurred also during that era.

00:40:42.660 I was also the first time that the judicial authorities went after me.

00:40:47.260 They didn't put me in prison, but they went after me.

00:40:49.120 It was when I led, as a parliament, as a congressman,

00:40:53.040 an investigation that proved that just in one case,

00:40:57.740 listen to this amount, one case,

00:41:01.360 $8 billion disappeared.

00:41:05.220 $8 billion.

00:41:06.460 It was just one case that I just investigated.

00:41:10.560 People said that overall, during the Chavez era,

00:41:15.680 approximately $300 billion were missed.

00:41:22.440 And this is something that is not just being said by someone from the opposition.

00:41:27.700 A lot of former ministers of Chavez agreed on this.

00:41:32.460 Now when we add the Maduro era,

00:41:35.100 this thing is different because they didn't have enough money,

00:41:37.380 so they needed to rely more on repression.

00:41:42.160 So they're starting to coerce more people

00:41:44.400 and to start killing and torturing more.

00:41:47.060 I will say that before Chavez, 0.97

00:41:49.760 you had corruption and selective repression,

00:41:54.960 but let's say populism that was fueled by oil.

00:41:59.400 And of course, the secret, or not that secret,

00:42:04.340 but not as noisy,

00:42:06.460 built up of an autocratic machine

00:42:09.720 that was, you know, taking control of all the powers.

00:42:13.160 During the Maduro era, what we saw was like

00:42:15.720 more poverty, economic crisis,

00:42:20.040 the machinery actively persecuting people,

00:42:22.520 and of course, you know,

00:42:26.600 a disaster in terms, a humanitarian disaster.

00:42:29.560 So people in Venezuela have lived 0.99

00:42:32.180 shortages of electricity all the time.

00:42:35.720 If you are not part of the bubble,

00:42:38.640 you might eat once or twice per day.

00:42:43.340 And if someone from the party of the regime

00:42:46.720 wants your house or wants your girlfriend, 0.86

00:42:49.060 they can easily put you in jail.

00:42:50.480 And there's basically no rule at all,

00:42:54.720 rule of law at all.

00:42:56.380 This is like the Wild Wild West

00:42:57.800 in a very, very deprived population.

00:43:02.200 And it has to be this way

00:43:03.140 because imagine how desperate you have to be

00:43:09.000 in order to walk from Venezuela to Argentina

00:43:13.900 or from Venezuela to the United States

00:43:16.400 knowing that meanwhile, 0.95

00:43:19.020 you can be deported, killed, you know, 0.95

00:43:22.160 traffic and all of this.

00:43:23.840 Imagine how desperate a population can be.

00:43:26.840 And 8 million people left.

00:43:29.000 8 million people.

00:43:29.760 And that's very close to the war in Ukraine

00:43:32.060 and in Syria.

00:43:33.380 But us, we don't have a formal war.

00:43:36.200 So imagine the craziness

00:43:38.400 of the situation in Venezuela.

00:43:40.140 And this, again,

00:43:40.920 someone's hearing and saying,

00:43:42.200 oh, these people from the opposition,

00:43:43.820 these are not my numbers.

00:43:44.740 These are the numbers, for example,

00:43:45.760 of the United Nations.

00:43:46.700 So let me ask you then

00:43:49.160 about the transition that's in place right now.

00:43:55.820 The majority on his wife have been taken out,

00:43:59.260 but Delcey Rodriguez is still in power. 1.00

00:44:01.560 I'm sure you've seen the television coverage

00:44:05.980 in the United States asking,

00:44:08.120 why haven't you declared

00:44:09.320 that you'll have elections within 30 days?

00:44:11.500 Why aren't you putting Maria Carino Machado in power? 1.00

00:44:18.260 What is your take on what should happen?

00:44:21.120 Should there be an immediate transition

00:44:22.960 to the opposition that was elected previously?

00:44:26.580 Should there be new elections?

00:44:27.740 Should there be a stabilization period?

00:44:31.740 How do you handle this?

00:44:34.960 There's my ideal world,

00:44:36.640 and there's what I think we can do.

00:44:40.180 My ideal world...

00:44:40.760 Politics is the art of the possible,

00:44:43.020 not the ideal.

00:44:45.200 So what can be done?

00:44:47.140 So my ideal world, of course,

00:44:49.000 you know,

00:44:49.420 Delcey Rodriguez will not be the president.

00:44:50.900 It will be Edmundo Gonzalez,

00:44:52.200 who was the one that won the election.

00:44:54.220 And we will have all the military people saying,

00:44:57.100 like, yes, we understand this,

00:44:58.220 and that's it.

00:44:59.580 In the reality now,

00:45:01.580 the Americans have made a decision

00:45:03.100 to play with the leftovers of Maduro

00:45:06.900 to make them agree on a democratic transition.

00:45:11.240 I don't trust that to happen,

00:45:13.900 not because I don't trust the Americans,

00:45:18.080 or just because I don't trust the people

00:45:20.120 who is in charge in Venezuela now.

00:45:21.560 However, I still have the hope

00:45:23.820 that they've learned

00:45:25.380 in, you know,

00:45:27.740 through what happened to Maduro,

00:45:28.940 they're not untouchables.

00:45:30.860 But we have to be aware

00:45:33.500 of these risk scenarios.

00:45:36.280 The first one is that,

00:45:38.300 for example,

00:45:39.500 there's some discussions in the Senate

00:45:40.920 and House,

00:45:43.620 you know,

00:45:43.980 in the Congress of the United States

00:45:45.100 about limiting actions of Trumps in Venezuela.

00:45:48.080 If that happens,

00:45:49.220 there will be no more stick.

00:45:50.700 And make sure,

00:45:52.800 rest assured,

00:45:53.400 that the Maduro regime will stay,

00:45:58.180 even without him,

00:45:59.000 but the regime will stay.

00:46:00.440 So that's from,

00:46:01.580 the Democrats are trying to restrict

00:46:03.360 his ability to act in Venezuela.

00:46:05.260 But if that happens,

00:46:06.900 then Delce Rodriguez stays in power.

00:46:09.640 Yeah, for sure.

00:46:10.440 For sure.

00:46:10.780 Because they only fear,

00:46:12.680 fear,

00:46:13.780 they don't act on reasons.

00:46:17.160 If they would act on reasons,

00:46:18.420 if they would care about money,

00:46:20.180 all the economic sanctions,

00:46:21.540 all the diplomatic statements,

00:46:23.020 all the mediation process

00:46:24.020 would have worked.

00:46:25.220 So this is people that are criminals.

00:46:26.680 I think people feel

00:46:27.500 that they are politicians.

00:46:28.640 They are people that are

00:46:29.820 more similar to Pablo Escobar

00:46:32.360 than to,

00:46:33.900 you know,

00:46:34.340 a normal

00:46:35.020 or traditional dictatorship

00:46:37.020 that exists

00:46:37.800 and have ever existed.

00:46:38.880 So there's risk number two

00:46:41.380 is that

00:46:42.640 they believe

00:46:43.660 they can convince

00:46:44.460 the American oil

00:46:45.820 to accept

00:46:47.880 kind of what

00:46:49.280 political scientists call

00:46:50.660 competitive authoritarianism.

00:46:54.080 Like,

00:46:54.480 they allowed

00:46:55.080 to become

00:46:57.060 kind of like,

00:46:59.040 I don't know,

00:46:59.740 maybe a China

00:47:00.420 or Saudi Arabia

00:47:01.800 in a milder version.

00:47:03.640 Like, say,

00:47:03.980 okay, yeah,

00:47:04.500 we open our markets,

00:47:05.580 drill, baby, drill, 1.00

00:47:06.420 but let us control

00:47:08.240 the politics here.

00:47:09.900 So maybe

00:47:10.300 with, you know,

00:47:11.640 kind of elections

00:47:12.600 but not fair,

00:47:14.020 something like that.

00:47:14.680 I think that's a risk.

00:47:16.000 And of course,

00:47:16.460 the third risk is that

00:47:17.680 the leftovers of Maduro

00:47:20.760 plays

00:47:21.420 against Trump

00:47:22.680 in the way that they

00:47:23.600 think that they can

00:47:25.640 outsmart them

00:47:26.480 and they buy time

00:47:28.080 and then something

00:47:29.200 geopolitical happens

00:47:30.420 or there's a chief in power

00:47:32.440 in the United States

00:47:33.260 and they remain.

00:47:34.600 I think those are

00:47:35.380 the three bets.

00:47:36.420 And that's why

00:47:38.200 this needs to happen fast

00:47:39.560 and it will require

00:47:40.860 not only the Americans

00:47:42.560 but everyone

00:47:43.340 in the international community

00:47:44.820 that really cares

00:47:45.420 about democracy,

00:47:46.620 you know,

00:47:47.220 makes,

00:47:47.880 you know,

00:47:49.200 all the right decisions

00:47:50.160 in order to achieve,

00:47:51.520 to help us achieve

00:47:52.260 this democratic transition.

00:47:55.320 I look at

00:47:57.660 Secretary of State

00:47:59.400 Marco Rubio

00:48:00.200 who has a Cuban background,

00:48:02.940 who is very concerned

00:48:04.280 about Latin America

00:48:05.160 and is concerned

00:48:07.380 about democracy

00:48:08.180 in that region.

00:48:10.640 That gives me

00:48:11.480 a bit of hope.

00:48:12.240 Does it give you hope

00:48:13.780 that he has a personal

00:48:15.260 connection to that?

00:48:17.260 For sure.

00:48:17.560 I met,

00:48:18.600 I mean,

00:48:19.200 it's not like I am

00:48:20.420 a friend of Marco Rubio,

00:48:21.380 no.

00:48:22.400 When I met him

00:48:23.440 twice or thrice

00:48:25.140 and before he was

00:48:26.960 in the Senate

00:48:29.180 and I was in Congress,

00:48:30.460 I met him

00:48:30.960 and I don't only know him,

00:48:33.400 I know people

00:48:34.360 from his staff

00:48:35.060 and I know the things

00:48:36.440 he's saying publicly

00:48:37.140 and in private

00:48:37.800 and it gives me

00:48:39.780 a lot of,

00:48:40.600 let's say,

00:48:41.800 trust

00:48:43.420 or I'm optimistic

00:48:44.820 because

00:48:45.560 A,

00:48:46.360 I believe that

00:48:47.460 he really cares

00:48:48.380 about democracy

00:48:50.080 and B,

00:48:52.640 he understands

00:48:54.260 what he's

00:48:55.140 playing against.

00:48:56.800 So I think

00:48:57.680 he's not going

00:48:58.220 to be fooled

00:48:58.800 by these guys

00:48:59.840 that always try

00:49:01.260 to fool everyone.

00:49:02.900 Mm-hmm.

00:49:03.560 Yeah,

00:49:03.860 that's my feeling

00:49:05.640 of it

00:49:06.000 and I can look

00:49:09.020 to the noise

00:49:09.900 and all of the bluster

00:49:12.280 around the president

00:49:13.340 and some of his staff

00:49:15.720 and what people

00:49:16.660 are saying

00:49:17.060 and then I look

00:49:18.040 to Marco Rubio

00:49:18.940 and I feel like,

00:49:20.580 okay,

00:49:20.900 there's a man there

00:49:21.820 that has some sense

00:49:23.160 of what's happening.

00:49:24.500 That gives me

00:49:25.400 some hope.

00:49:26.780 I asked you

00:49:27.500 at the start

00:49:28.000 about the feeling

00:49:31.100 of people

00:49:31.540 in Venezuela

00:49:32.200 and,

00:49:33.020 you know,

00:49:33.500 while you're

00:49:34.200 in the United States,

00:49:35.220 while you're

00:49:35.540 in the Boston area now,

00:49:36.920 you're still

00:49:37.800 regularly in touch

00:49:39.720 with people there.

00:49:41.020 How do they feel

00:49:41.960 about the campaign

00:49:44.020 leading up to this?

00:49:45.400 The strikes

00:49:46.300 on the boats,

00:49:47.320 things like that.

00:49:48.560 Were those supported?

00:49:50.700 Were those opposed?

00:49:53.120 You know that

00:49:53.500 this is a very

00:49:54.160 interesting question

00:49:55.060 and you know what?

00:49:57.980 Many people

00:49:58.640 don't even know

00:49:59.320 what happened

00:49:59.980 or don't even know

00:50:01.080 that that happened.

00:50:02.480 Why?

00:50:03.160 Because there's

00:50:03.620 a lot of censorship

00:50:04.460 and weirdly,

00:50:07.660 the Maduro regime

00:50:08.640 didn't claim

00:50:10.040 those victims.

00:50:11.640 Well,

00:50:12.000 maybe it's not weirdly,

00:50:12.860 right?

00:50:13.040 Because maybe

00:50:13.520 if they would say,

00:50:14.320 yeah,

00:50:14.460 those are my people,

00:50:15.720 it would be a recognition

00:50:16.720 of they will be

00:50:18.240 involved in the trafficking.

00:50:18.800 Oh,

00:50:18.940 so you are 0.99

00:50:19.460 a drug trafficker.

00:50:20.700 Yeah.

00:50:21.480 And also,

00:50:22.680 they were playing

00:50:23.760 this psychological

00:50:25.600 strategy

00:50:26.840 within their own

00:50:27.740 basis,

00:50:28.320 like,

00:50:28.540 no,

00:50:28.700 no,

00:50:28.860 the Americans

00:50:29.320 are not going to engage.

00:50:30.500 Don't worry,

00:50:31.080 this is all bluff.

00:50:31.840 So I think

00:50:33.280 that this kind

00:50:35.200 of,

00:50:35.820 in one hand,

00:50:36.760 censorship,

00:50:37.860 in the second hand,

00:50:39.600 not having the government

00:50:41.060 saying,

00:50:41.620 hey,

00:50:41.780 someone killed 0.85

00:50:42.440 Venezuelans,

00:50:43.400 this is unfair,

00:50:45.140 or whatever,

00:50:46.240 that created,

00:50:47.540 like,

00:50:47.780 this mixed

00:50:49.640 approach

00:50:50.620 with Venezuelans

00:50:51.300 that they don't really know

00:50:52.020 if that happened

00:50:52.540 or not.

00:50:53.320 So they see it

00:50:54.140 in social media,

00:50:55.660 but really,

00:50:57.560 the only version

00:50:58.120 is the American version

00:50:59.060 because the side

00:51:01.480 that was supposed

00:51:02.300 to defend those people

00:51:03.420 never spoke up

00:51:04.440 because of their

00:51:05.320 political strategy.

00:51:07.880 What about the

00:51:08.800 seizure of the Russian 1.00

00:51:10.280 ghost ship

00:51:10.920 and the treatment

00:51:12.740 of the oil?

00:51:13.580 How do you expect

00:51:14.320 that to play out

00:51:15.080 over the next

00:51:15.800 few months?

00:51:19.420 First,

00:51:19.940 I will have to say

00:51:20.580 that I understand

00:51:21.500 also,

00:51:22.020 like,

00:51:22.200 from the outside,

00:51:22.940 many people would say,

00:51:23.800 like,

00:51:23.920 okay,

00:51:24.180 you know what?

00:51:24.980 This is not good.

00:51:25.820 This is Trump

00:51:26.300 taking people's oil.

00:51:27.540 And as I said before,

00:51:29.360 of course,

00:51:29.720 we would like

00:51:30.340 a different outcome

00:51:31.060 in general,

00:51:31.640 right?

00:51:31.820 We would like

00:51:32.260 that all resources

00:51:33.200 will be managed

00:51:33.840 for Venezuelans

00:51:35.140 elected by Venezuelans.

00:51:37.780 However,

00:51:38.280 I think it's very important

00:51:39.140 to remark

00:51:40.300 and remind

00:51:40.960 that we lost

00:51:41.660 our sovereignty

00:51:42.380 many years ago,

00:51:43.780 not now.

00:51:45.560 Venezuelans

00:51:46.040 haven't been

00:51:46.900 taking

00:51:49.560 the benefits

00:51:50.620 of our oil

00:51:51.560 since many decades ago.

00:51:54.300 Most of our oil fields

00:51:55.580 are being

00:51:56.460 exploited

00:51:57.940 by Chinese,

00:51:58.740 Russian,

00:51:59.260 Cuban,

00:51:59.720 and Iranian

00:52:00.860 companies.

00:52:02.620 Many of this

00:52:03.720 money

00:52:04.320 is not even

00:52:05.660 paid.

00:52:06.860 For example,

00:52:08.160 Chinese is still 1.00

00:52:09.280 taking

00:52:10.520 almost half a billion

00:52:11.740 barrels,

00:52:12.200 I believe,

00:52:13.580 because of the debt.

00:52:14.720 So we're paying

00:52:15.580 debt of money

00:52:16.520 that were stolen

00:52:17.340 many years ago.

00:52:18.960 So Chinese 1.00

00:52:19.400 receiving,

00:52:20.980 or was receiving

00:52:21.600 for a long time,

00:52:22.940 basically,

00:52:24.280 barrels of oil

00:52:25.540 to pay

00:52:26.740 a debt.

00:52:28.320 And Cuba

00:52:28.760 was receiving

00:52:29.660 a lot of

00:52:30.260 oils for free,

00:52:31.080 too.

00:52:31.760 For example,

00:52:32.500 to pay

00:52:33.000 the military

00:52:33.680 protection

00:52:35.120 that they gave

00:52:35.800 to Maduro.

00:52:36.680 That for many years

00:52:37.700 with Venezuelan

00:52:38.240 says that were

00:52:38.700 happening,

00:52:39.640 and people

00:52:40.140 told that

00:52:40.560 we were

00:52:40.840 exaggerating,

00:52:42.020 and now

00:52:42.500 the Cuban

00:52:43.360 dictatorship

00:52:43.820 have recognized

00:52:44.780 that 32

00:52:46.280 Cubans

00:52:47.420 were killed

00:52:48.020 in the military

00:52:48.560 operation

00:52:49.180 that took

00:52:50.140 Maduro out.

00:52:50.700 so

00:52:51.920 what I will

00:52:53.040 have to say

00:52:53.480 is like

00:52:54.060 Venezuelans

00:52:55.000 don't feel

00:52:55.660 that this

00:52:56.760 oil was

00:52:57.460 never ours,

00:52:58.720 I mean,

00:52:59.120 like in the

00:52:59.640 last decades.

00:53:01.020 So I don't

00:53:01.720 think that

00:53:02.100 anyone thinks

00:53:02.800 that,

00:53:03.660 oh,

00:53:03.740 they're taking

00:53:04.200 away their

00:53:04.620 oil.

00:53:05.240 I think

00:53:05.820 that probably

00:53:06.240 they see it

00:53:06.820 as a sign

00:53:07.800 of hope

00:53:08.320 that maybe

00:53:09.180 at least

00:53:09.820 this oil

00:53:10.440 will not

00:53:10.980 be used

00:53:11.360 to torture 0.86

00:53:11.800 us.

00:53:13.620 So in

00:53:15.100 terms of

00:53:15.560 the claims

00:53:15.960 that the

00:53:16.460 United States

00:53:17.000 is going

00:53:17.360 to come

00:53:17.940 in,

00:53:18.340 big American

00:53:18.940 oil companies

00:53:19.800 will invest.

00:53:21.200 Look,

00:53:21.520 we have

00:53:22.000 our own

00:53:22.340 oil patch

00:53:22.940 in Canada.

00:53:24.060 There's been

00:53:24.400 a lot of

00:53:25.020 anxiety

00:53:25.920 about Venezuelan

00:53:27.340 oil coming

00:53:27.860 back on the

00:53:28.500 market because

00:53:29.200 that could 0.68

00:53:30.120 impact our

00:53:30.820 economy.

00:53:31.840 But we

00:53:32.240 understand,

00:53:33.400 look,

00:53:34.200 American

00:53:34.620 companies

00:53:35.160 investing in

00:53:35.900 your oil

00:53:36.320 patch can

00:53:36.800 be very

00:53:37.180 good,

00:53:37.720 very lucrative

00:53:38.360 for you.

00:53:39.760 Yes,

00:53:40.300 they're going

00:53:40.640 to make

00:53:40.960 profit,

00:53:41.520 but so

00:53:41.880 will the

00:53:42.500 people who

00:53:43.280 get the

00:53:43.620 jobs,

00:53:44.120 the governments

00:53:44.540 that get

00:53:44.860 the taxes.

00:53:45.900 So you're

00:53:46.720 not afraid

00:53:47.140 of that

00:53:47.460 happening.

00:53:48.940 A,

00:53:49.480 sadly,

00:53:49.900 I will

00:53:50.100 say that

00:53:51.100 you don't

00:53:51.300 have to

00:53:51.580 worry too

00:53:51.960 much because

00:53:53.100 the industry

00:53:53.780 is so

00:53:54.240 destroyed that

00:53:55.340 it will

00:53:55.560 take years

00:53:56.720 to be

00:53:57.300 restored.

00:53:58.780 So I

00:53:59.460 say it

00:53:59.900 really with,

00:54:00.680 you know,

00:54:01.860 full of

00:54:03.060 sadness because

00:54:04.880 I believe

00:54:05.340 that,

00:54:05.940 you know,

00:54:06.680 what we

00:54:07.100 had was

00:54:07.440 so important

00:54:08.040 that these

00:54:09.620 guys destroyed

00:54:10.300 at every

00:54:10.840 level that

00:54:11.440 it's going

00:54:11.940 to take

00:54:12.180 a long

00:54:12.400 time.

00:54:13.660 But the

00:54:13.920 second thing

00:54:14.340 is that

00:54:14.760 I think

00:54:16.320 that,

00:54:17.740 I don't

00:54:18.220 know,

00:54:18.320 maybe this

00:54:18.700 is more

00:54:18.940 like a

00:54:19.300 policy

00:54:19.660 question

00:54:20.260 that I'm

00:54:20.900 saying now

00:54:21.540 or an

00:54:21.820 approach,

00:54:22.960 but I

00:54:24.180 do believe

00:54:24.580 that to

00:54:24.920 get to

00:54:25.480 the green

00:54:26.120 transition,

00:54:26.660 we will

00:54:27.300 need to

00:54:27.960 make also

00:54:29.420 use of

00:54:30.480 fossil fuels

00:54:31.720 to get

00:54:32.640 into that

00:54:33.040 stage.

00:54:34.040 And a lot

00:54:34.420 of energy

00:54:34.940 is going to

00:54:35.420 also be

00:54:35.860 required to

00:54:36.480 make,

00:54:37.020 you know,

00:54:37.520 these new

00:54:38.020 forms and

00:54:38.820 the green

00:54:39.080 transition that

00:54:39.620 we all

00:54:39.860 want.

00:54:40.820 So I

00:54:42.740 am hopeful

00:54:43.400 that we're

00:54:44.320 going to

00:54:44.460 be able

00:54:44.880 to restore

00:54:45.540 industry.

00:54:46.820 However,

00:54:47.100 I think

00:54:47.580 like for

00:54:48.800 all of the

00:54:49.200 reasons that

00:54:49.740 I said

00:54:50.060 now and

00:54:50.580 also like

00:54:51.080 how the

00:54:51.460 world is

00:54:51.880 being

00:54:52.100 shaped,

00:54:53.280 I'm

00:54:54.180 afraid that

00:54:55.520 we will

00:54:55.820 have to

00:54:56.120 rethink the

00:54:56.940 way we

00:54:57.520 think about

00:54:59.360 our country.

00:55:00.600 And Venezuela

00:55:01.000 cannot be

00:55:01.580 longer a

00:55:03.300 country that

00:55:05.140 just relies

00:55:05.960 on its

00:55:07.240 commodity,

00:55:08.360 and that

00:55:10.240 hopefully this

00:55:11.100 will help

00:55:11.580 us to

00:55:11.920 also achieve

00:55:12.520 a more

00:55:13.220 diversified

00:55:14.000 and fair

00:55:14.660 economy that

00:55:16.200 brings more

00:55:18.380 of the

00:55:18.760 people's

00:55:19.240 talents into

00:55:20.060 the production

00:55:22.460 of a new

00:55:23.080 era.

00:55:23.740 Well, as I

00:55:24.660 was telling

00:55:25.080 a friend

00:55:25.920 recently,

00:55:26.480 Freddie,

00:55:26.880 I'm looking

00:55:27.760 forward to a

00:55:28.420 Venezuelan

00:55:28.940 vacation one

00:55:29.740 day.

00:55:30.280 So I hope

00:55:30.700 we get to

00:55:31.100 the...

00:55:31.360 Amazing.

00:55:32.200 You have to

00:55:32.760 go.

00:55:32.980 It's beautiful.

00:55:33.940 I miss it

00:55:34.420 so much.

00:55:35.340 I hope you

00:55:35.800 found both of

00:55:36.560 these conversations

00:55:37.380 to be

00:55:38.220 enlightening to

00:55:39.180 bring a

00:55:39.640 different point

00:55:40.340 of view than

00:55:40.880 what you've

00:55:41.320 heard elsewhere.

00:55:42.340 This is a

00:55:42.960 growing and

00:55:43.840 ongoing story,

00:55:44.980 one that will

00:55:45.420 evolve over

00:55:46.220 the coming

00:55:46.660 weeks, and

00:55:47.600 one that we

00:55:48.020 will continue

00:55:48.580 to follow.

00:55:49.480 Full Comment

00:55:50.060 is a post-media

00:55:51.120 podcast.

00:55:51.780 My name's

00:55:52.120 Brian Lilly,

00:55:52.760 your host.

00:55:53.500 This episode

00:55:54.040 was produced

00:55:54.640 by Andre

00:55:55.200 Proulx.

00:55:55.700 Theme music

00:55:56.320 by Bryce

00:55:56.880 Hall.

00:55:57.500 Kevin Libin

00:55:58.060 is the

00:55:58.560 executive producer.

00:55:59.860 Please remember

00:56:00.440 to hit the

00:56:00.840 subscribe button,

00:56:02.020 leave us a

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00:56:08.740 Thanks for

00:56:09.200 listening.

00:56:09.680 Until next

00:56:10.120 time, I'm

00:56:10.940 Brian Lilly.

00:56:14.220 Here's that

00:56:15.020 clip from

00:56:15.560 Canada Did

00:56:16.300 What?

00:56:16.940 I promised

00:56:17.440 you.

00:56:17.700 So, although

00:56:23.120 abortion was 0.78

00:56:26.520 sort of

00:56:27.280 accessible, it

00:56:28.060 really wasn't.

00:56:28.880 But then

00:56:29.260 1988 rolls

00:56:30.380 around.

00:56:31.280 And what's

00:56:31.700 the law on

00:56:32.240 abortion then?

00:56:33.780 Suddenly, there

00:56:35.140 wasn't one.

00:56:36.480 Literally no

00:56:37.160 restrictions existed

00:56:38.340 in 1988.

00:56:39.840 Abortion went

00:56:40.640 from heavily

00:56:41.360 restricted to

00:56:42.200 completely

00:56:42.840 unrestricted

00:56:43.760 almost overnight.

00:56:45.960 There was no

00:56:46.580 referendum on

00:56:47.280 this.

00:56:47.700 There wasn't

00:56:48.100 even an

00:56:48.580 act of

00:56:48.940 parliament.

00:56:49.880 This whole

00:56:50.440 thing is due

00:56:51.220 to a somewhat

00:56:51.880 surprised decision

00:56:53.080 out of the

00:56:53.640 Supreme Court

00:56:54.120 of Canada.

00:56:55.080 And it came

00:56:55.820 about in

00:56:56.320 large part

00:56:56.840 because of

00:56:57.300 one man,

00:56:58.280 a Canadian

00:56:58.800 doctor who

00:56:59.460 had been

00:56:59.760 relentless

00:57:00.300 about running

00:57:01.060 illegal abortion

00:57:01.880 clinics since

00:57:02.540 the 1960s and

00:57:03.980 was determined

00:57:04.720 to overturn the

00:57:05.600 laws prohibiting

00:57:06.260 the practice.

00:57:07.700 Along the

00:57:08.360 way, he

00:57:08.700 endured multiple

00:57:09.700 arrests,

00:57:10.340 constant raids,

00:57:11.200 a jail term,

00:57:11.900 a firebombing

00:57:12.720 of his clinic,

00:57:13.360 an attack by

00:57:13.960 a fanatic

00:57:14.420 wielding garden

00:57:15.040 shears,

00:57:15.700 the approbation

00:57:16.780 of virtually his

00:57:17.700 entire profession,

00:57:18.960 and frequent

00:57:19.820 death threats.

00:57:22.840 If you want to

00:57:23.780 hear the rest of

00:57:24.640 the story,

00:57:25.220 make sure you

00:57:26.020 subscribe to

00:57:26.800 Canada Did What?

00:57:28.180 Everywhere you

00:57:29.080 get your podcasts.

Full Comment - January 12, 2026

What Venezuelans say about Trump’s incursion isn’t what we’ve been told

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