Why this nurse chose firing over a vaccine
Episode Stats
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Summary
Anita Davis is a Registered Nurse who worked in Ontario for 30 years but has now been let go. She tells us why she chose not to get her first dose of COVID and why she didn t get the second dose.
Transcript
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Thanks for joining us for the latest episode of Full Comment.
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Vaccine mandates have become a very controversial topic,
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but one thing that many people say is that if they're going to be in any place,
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it should be in the healthcare sector, where vulnerable people are being treated and where
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those dealing with the worst bouts of COVID-19 are of course being hospitalized.
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And while the overwhelming majority of healthcare workers are vaccinated, some are saying no.
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Some are willing to get fired over it, including our next guest, a registered nurse who worked in Ontario for 30 years, but has now been let go.
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Now, I want to be clear because emotions do run high with this issue and even having discussions about this issue,
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that we're not having this conversation on this podcast because we want to discourage anyone from getting vaccinated.
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I, myself, like most people in Canada, got the two shots.
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But I think it's important that instead of just talking about such individuals,
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we take the time to talk to them and listen to what they have to say.
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Anita Davis is a registered nurse from London, Ontario.
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So off the bat, what is your employment status right now as a registered nurse in Ontario?
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After 31 years of nursing, I have been terminated as of October the 22nd.
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And terminated as a result of non-compliance with vaccination policy that I guess you have to comply by by October 22nd.
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And just so we're clear, what was the policy put in place by the place you worked at, London Health Sciences Centre?
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So the policy speaks to obviously the COVID vaccination.
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It was, I guess, demanding that everybody be double vaccinated by October the 22nd or face termination.
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Now, folks that would have had one vaccination by that time and have to wait, you know, the 21 or 28 days in between,
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they're put on an unpaid leave right now until they get their second vaccine.
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Then they will still be on an unpaid leave for 14 days, and then they can come back into the workplace.
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What situation were you in when you were terminated?
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I take it that means that you did not have the one dose.
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Well, actually, before I ask you the next question, because you clarified COVID vaccines,
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Why did you choose to not get the COVID vaccine?
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For me, really looking into the information that's out there, I find it a very one-sided debate,
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But I just, it's really a time piece for me, Anthony.
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There just hasn't been enough, even immediate term results, let alone long term.
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And I'm not even talking about, you know, waiting for like 20 years or something.
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But I feel that for the mandates to come out this quickly, I feel very rushed to make that decision
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Um, it's not just something that you're putting on or wearing or having to say.
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Um, and the other piece, and I don't know how controversial this would be, but certainly,
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There's nothing that I can do to go back to the vaccine companies to, if there are problems
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or, or if there are adverse effects and some things, many things can't be changed once
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And I would even say stronger than that, Anthony, adverse effects.
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Side effects, you know, things that side effects that you would say normally talk about with
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regular medications or anything, you know, headaches, fatigue.
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Um, so often, you know, you'll have a shot in your arm and you'll have a sore arm.
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Those aren't, those aren't things that, you know, I'm not concerned with there, but I just
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don't have enough, um, long-term data to see how does it go, including needing boosters,
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which now they're talking about the third booster coming out, how many are there, what's the efficacy
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Coming from a nursing background, there's too many questions for me to feel comfortable
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Uh, now I believe I received my first shot in June of this year.
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Uh, however, a lot of healthcare professionals would have been able to first receive it in
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So when you're talking about people in your situation, your colleagues, I guess there's
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10 months of, of people who are in your line of work who have had experience having had
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So you're saying 10 months, uh, that, that, that timeline didn't sort of assuage it.
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You kind of thought, okay, I've waited out the clock.
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Now I'll get the shot kind of thing at the end of October.
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I I'm still not, personally, I'm still not comfortable with, with the outcomes of it.
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And what sort of conversations have happened among you and your colleagues?
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Because, uh, presumably based on the numbers, most of the people that you work with, the people
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you're around in, in, in your hospital settings, they have all received the vaccine and probably
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received it many months, uh, before, but that didn't give you assurances.
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You know, um, I, now for myself personally, I work in a small clinic, um, area out, actually
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outside of the hospital and I teach patients how to do their own dialysis at home, their
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And I work with a very small group of just wonderful women.
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Um, and we've had such good conversations around this, even, even with their comfort zones.
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There's questions about boosters, um, and I've made my stance very clear on this.
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I'm, I'm not some hard line and, you know, anti-vaxxer.
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My staff members, all my girls have been so supportive all along.
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It's been devastating, um, losing a staff member because there are only five nurses left
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Um, so I was one of five for the longest time and we've just actually brought somebody
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else new in, so to lose 20% of your workforce there is, is difficult.
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So it's, it's been very difficult and knowing that this was coming up, especially since the
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end of August has made it particularly difficult.
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It was very hard for me going into work and just knowing that the termination was coming
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So you've, you've spoken openly to your colleagues who you sort of worked the same shifts with
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And by the sounds of it, uh, most of these colleagues were vaccinated themselves, but you, you did just
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speak about it openly and they knew about your position.
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Uh, one of, one of my colleagues, actually a couple of my colleagues, um, were also very
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vaccine hesitant and you know what did not feel comfortable taking the vaccine, but when
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you're faced with the coercion of having your job, your livelihood, um, your paycheck taken
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away from you, um, which is really not playing fair ball, um, what can you do, right?
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That, that's, that's a very difficult choice to make.
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Um, so I would say that there's probably a larger number than you think Anthony of, of
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healthcare workers who have taken, and not just nurses, of course I'm a nurse, but I'm
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speaking for the entire hospital team for people who have taken their shot and they felt
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very put under duress to do that, which is no way to have a patient sign a consent for
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any procedure, let alone, uh, you know, educated staff making that decision as well.
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And I know Anita, you're not just here speaking in your own capacity, in your own situation.
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Uh, you've also been a spokesperson for an organization called United Healthcare Workers
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So, uh, the UHCWO.com, wonderful website, um, Roman Babber's team has been a huge help
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getting this set up for us because certainly, well, you can see the technical difficulties
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that come up with somebody who's a professional, let alone taking, um, you know, professionals
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So, it's, it's really, it's a grassroots collective of healthcare workers, again, not just
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nurses, um, anybody who works in healthcare can join and we've, we represent over 3,000
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So, and these are 3,000 individuals who, uh, have similar questions and concerns, 3,000
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who, who are definitely not vaccinated, or are there some vaccinated persons who are just
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sort of, uh, allies for, I guess, choice and opposed to the mandates?
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Uh, we certainly, we have people who are in it who are vaccinated and made their choice
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and we're happy to make their choice, um, without having to feel under duress and they
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feel very concerned that these mandates are out there.
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My, my mission, I guess, if you want to call it that today, is not to speak to being anti-vax
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I want the right, as I want everybody to have their right to make their own choice, because
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Um, of course, and then as our discussion goes on, we'll discuss how, how does that work
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Well, how does it work in a healthcare setting in terms of what the rules are in place for
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I know of there in stories in the past, uh, the British Columbia Nurses Union actually
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went to court to fight against nurses having to get the flu shot.
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I don't believe the union's position was that they were anti-flu shot, uh, but they were in
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support of choice for it, which is why they went to court, uh, in the first place.
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What is, what was the status quo prior to this coming into place, this rule for you?
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Uh, did you have to have the flu shot or other shots or what have you, other immunization
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This is, as far as I know, unless there was something that was, you know, really kind of
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far out there, this is the only time that we've ever had a vaccine mandate.
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We've had suggested ones of, you know, shots and vaccine, um, the flu shot, um, the Ontario
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health association, they did try to put it through so that it would be mandated.
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And so just like in BC, um, that ended up falling through as being put in as a forced
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So, um, this is the first time that we've ever seen anything like this at all.
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So Anita, let me ask you back in January when, uh, the vaccines became available for your
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colleagues and you saw some of them roll up their sleeve on day one.
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A lot of people, of course, very happy to participate in it.
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Did you just kind of think, okay, well, this isn't for me.
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Or did you expect that a day would come when you were told, okay, you're going to have to
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Nobody in my staff was even, um, vaccinated that soon.
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And it kind of rolled out, I think, to like long-term care and high risk.
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I think that we probably started closer to, with our staff, probably, I would have to say
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That's a bit of a guess, but, um, which isn't a huge change, I guess, from that.
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Um, we, we had some that were, you know, kind of ran out to get it.
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Um, others that were, wanted to look into it more.
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And then of course, a couple of others of us who were, I don't know, can't make that decision
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What was the general climate in the broader sort of healthcare situation?
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I know you talked about your immediate workplace and people who you were on shift with the broader
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discussion, I guess, particularly in the city you're in over healthcare worker perspectives.
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Cause this is a view that a lot of people, uh, of course are very passionate about whether
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or not yes, to get the vaccine or in the small numbers of those healthcare workers who
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I mean, was it, was it a casual conversation up until the termination came where people
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Because it's become quite acrimonious, uh, of late.
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Oh, it's become, it's become, um, personally defining, hasn't it?
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I mean, you're literally a good person or a bad person, um, a good nurse, a bad nurse.
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I mean, we've, we've literally drawn the line this hard, which is very unfair.
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We've left out the other 99.9% of people, uh, like of their personality.
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People say that on Twitter, you were a bad nurse, but has someone said that to your face?
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Have you been accused of being a bad nurse because of this choice?
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I've never been accused of being a bad nurse, a little sassy maybe, but that's, but in all
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No, I mean, because of the, I don't mean in the past 30 years.
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And again, I think that that, that speaks to, um, how I am as a team member.
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Um, and, and being accepting of other people's issues that they have in their life.
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There's more than just the COVID vaccine, which I know we're discussing, but I think that my
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So did you just get, you know, an email, um, uh, something in the mail, a fax saying, you
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know, uh, dear Ms. Davis, thank you for your time.
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Was it a, you know, a healthcare administrator who you've been familiar with over the years
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Hey, Anita, you know, I, I like you personally.
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Um, so first the policy came out, um, and then it was really my immediate manager, um,
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There was no other outreach from senior management at all.
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Um, and, you know, uh, many staff members actually didn't even disclose their vaccination status.
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The reason, the reason that I did, so I, I think literally up until sort of the last
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day, uh, for many of them, I, I was vocal in the workplace and conversationally vocal
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So people, we all knew where each other stood with this.
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So I did feel comfortable coming out and saying that I, um, I think it would have been really,
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uh, presumptuous of myself to say, you know what, well, maybe I will get it or I'm not
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Um, and again, I think that that speaks to, we should be bold enough to make our own choices.
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Now, one thing that I've written about before, and we did a previous podcast episode on vaccine
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passports for the public more broadly is that I feel like Ontario's and Canada's approach
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to the passports is incredibly rigid and severe compared to what they're doing in other
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So whether or not, uh, you are for or against vaccine passports, I feel like best practices
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shows us there's different ways it can be done.
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So many European countries acknowledge natural immunity for certain time windows, six months,
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Uh, they'll also say, okay, you can go and get, uh, get a test, you know, once a week,
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twice a week, whatever it is, continually to show your negative.
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And then you get that green check mark still on your passport.
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And there's been a lot of discussion that, um, for healthcare workers, why don't we implement
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Anita, would you have been okay with being told, uh, for as long as these rules are in
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place for the next six months, year, five years, I don't know, you need to get a weekly
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So this all came about with directive six, uh, that Dr. Karen Moore put out now directive
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six gives guidelines for what, what recommendations, not laws, recommendations should be out there
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And he, um, amongst, you know, all the usual that, you know, social distancing, masking,
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hand-washing, we wear our PPE, um, appropriately, um, as needed.
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Um, I had, you know, initially I wondered if I really did want to do the testing because
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I knew that it would lead up to, um, termination without taking my shots because of the hospital
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But, but our hospital mandated that we get tested three times weekly, actually directive
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Uh, so I would test Monday, Wednesday, Friday, report my results and go in.
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And the other key piece to this too, is we're always worrying about testing.
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I would never even go into work, Anthony, uh, not, not feeling well anyways, whether it
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was GI or right or respiratory or, you know, feeling sick.
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So I think part of the responsibility as well is, as on us, I would think that as, as a healthcare
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staff person, uh, we all know when we're sick and certainly wouldn't go in pre-COVID.
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If COVID never happened, this, that wouldn't change.
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So I think that's, it's just even stricter that way too.
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But yeah, I would be willing to do my three times weekly getting tested.
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Um, as we know, the vaccines do not, um, they don't stop transmission of COVID.
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In our numbers today, we had 36% of the positives, um, in Ontario, which is still a very small
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Granted, I mean, if you have 438 people in Ontario, we have 15 million population, but
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of that number, because they keep insisting on putting those numbers out, 36% today are
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So when I go in as an unvaccinated nurse, you don't know to look at me.
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If you walked in Anthony and you saw me next to a colleague who was double vaccinated, you
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We all do the same infection control procedures, but I have gone in and I have got a negative
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If it was positive, of course I would report it and have to go for the PCR test.
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Um, have you had any sort of outbreak in, in your immediate workplace?
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You were one of your colleagues, uh, testing positive since this all began?
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We have a bit, we have more of an outpatient population, but, um, in, in my area where I've
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worked, there was, there weren't any, um, outbreaks at all.
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Let me ask you, because I, I said off the top, a lot of people, you asked them, okay,
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maybe they're against mandates or they're against it for their own sector and, you know,
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banking or what have you, but they say, well, healthcare is somewhere we need it.
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I think a lot of people say long-term care homes.
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That's the place where if you're going to have a vaccine mandate, it's there because
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we know the majority of persons who have died of COVID-19 in Ontario have been in long-term
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Anita, when you say you're opposed to these mandates, are you opposed to them just for you and your
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workplace and you would say, okay, I take the point on long-term care.
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Would you support it being brought in just for those locations?
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And I think if you're going to have choice now, I think that, uh, perhaps if you, the
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administration has to take a look at that as well.
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Of course, the lockdown is going to have a huge effect because you're not together out
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So, maybe we need to go back to the long-term care homes and say, so what kind of protection
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Certainly fatigue in a stressful workplace, which they all are right now, Anthony, everywhere.
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I got to tell you a crazy story about long-term care that happened to me.
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We, we have a family member who's in a long-term care facility and one of our family members
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is the designated visitor and was throughout COVID because the rules were very tight.
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Only one person can go in, you got to wear the mask, you got to this and that.
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And at one point we were chatting with the relative and he said, all right, well, I'm,
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you know, I'm off to go visit, uh, I'm off to go visit the family member, uh, at the long-term
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And, you know, this time, and this was, this was last November.
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And in that, I think the lockdown had maybe just begun.
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And he said, and this time I actually got to show the negative test.
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And I said, excuse me, what are you talking about?
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And he had been going to shoppers drug mart once a week to get tested because he was
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And I thought, and I said, what are you talking about?
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For the past couple of months, I just walk in and they said, did you test negative?
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This is, you know, going into the lion's den, this is where we've acknowledged the real,
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And yet these protocols, and we're talking about, okay, you know, kids aren't allowed
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to, you know, we canceled a kid's sports or it have you, even though we acknowledge
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that, you know, there wasn't a major threat there, but trickle down and so forth.
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And yet the actual place where there's big challenges, it was honor system.
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And it just kind of amazed me, Anita, that we could have such a disconnect.
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We're fighting over whether or not, you know, small retailers can't be open to one
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or two young people at the long-term care centers were.
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And I don't know if this was a standard policy if it was just this one location, but boy,
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That one rule that maybe should be in, the one rule that should most be in place wasn't
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So my question, my rebuttal to that then is, so where was the administrator for that?
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I mean, who are you going to report it to if you don't have anybody to go through?
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Now, I will tell you when I would do my testing here and the other staff that we were doing
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our, you know, three times weekly testing, there was like 15 steps.
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Well, really, there's probably about seven steps that I had to go through to actually
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download it here, upload it here, pass it on here, put a code in, put my three times
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Now, I know in the public, people will say, well, that's not a big deal.
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So in other words, there were a lot of hoops that I had to go through just to even report
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So that is, I'm sorry, that's an administrative fault because the staff would be getting sick
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How do you know that the management didn't come in sick?
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So there's so many unknowns and a lot of finger pointing going on.
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And I think that the government's really, I think, and administration did drop the ball
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Look, in the hospitals, we were crying out for PPE.
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My patients are, they have had, say, maybe previous transplants.
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So the patients themselves, some of them are higher risk, but because of the way that we're
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Well, let me ask, because you've acknowledged that there's some patients who are higher risk.
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And I guess a lot of the people out there, the people who are saying, bad nurse, they
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Why you should have either A, made the choice or B, complied with the mandate and gotten
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And that's why we need to terminate you for not doing it.
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Because you were, in fact, putting your patients at risk is what some individuals will say.
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And I've heard doctors say that on TV and so forth.
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So I respond to that by just finishing off what I was saying.
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So in our ICUs, when this first came out, the staff were reusing the same masks.
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So we weren't being serviced properly that way.
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Now, as to speaking for how do we keep our patients safe, again, Anthony, COVID is not
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the only disease that has walked through our hospital doors.
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You're completely frontline, yourselves and the paramedics.
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So how did I keep my safe and not get different diseases?
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Even back then, before you had all the infection control, I guess, units that are out there and
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policies, we still did, you still gloved masks, washed your hands frequently.
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So we have excellent practices already in hospitals.
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I can't speak to family members that we're visiting or, you know, going back to visit your
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But once you come into our doors, people should feel very safe.
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And, you know, interestingly enough, I'm unvaccinated.
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The vast majority of staff and even patients are vaccinated.
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It's not the unvaccinated staff saying, you have to make sure that I'm safe.
00:25:43.480
But it's the vaccinated people who are going around with lots of fear and a lot of rhetoric.
00:25:51.400
I certainly do see that playing out a little bit.
00:25:53.360
It has been interesting to see that the Ontario chief medical officer had to issue a directive
00:25:57.460
to health care providers to tell them, you need to see patients.
00:26:02.900
And that was quite something that the government needed to tell doctors that, like, I don't
00:26:09.300
Like he said, yes, virtual care is a thing for, you know, for a number of things.
00:26:13.940
But there are a lot of cases where you have to see patients in person.
00:26:16.920
And I have personally heard stories from friends who, you know, had a kid who was sick.
00:26:20.700
And they said, look, we got to get them checked out.
00:26:22.360
And the medical clinic would say, we will not accept you.
00:26:24.860
You have to go to ER, which is what led to this directive being issued.
00:26:29.020
And I think, Anita, to your point that these doctors, they themselves and their staff, I
00:26:33.560
imagine, have received two doses of the vaccine.
00:26:38.380
And you're saying that you did not receive the vaccine, but you were willing to go to work
00:26:44.200
So perhaps this is really a risk perception issue.
00:26:51.080
I mean, when you look at it, do you, so again, good person takes the vaccine, bad person doesn't
00:27:03.560
And you look at it and go, but if you believe so deeply in your vaccination, what are you worried
00:27:12.900
Why is it that the vaccinated or unvaccinated staff are the ones that are being pushed away?
00:27:22.040
We still, I have girls that I know that have still been going and working in the intensive
00:27:30.100
Well-seasoned, experienced nurses that didn't have the vaccine.
00:27:35.300
And they would have been treating COVID patients as well.
00:27:42.040
And again, would follow all their PPE guidelines.
00:27:45.860
And yeah, it's sort of taken, I think the whole media perspective, I'm not sure what
00:28:01.560
I think we need to start looking and how do we move on from this?
00:28:10.400
At what point do we say, maybe the technology isn't quite here yet?
00:28:15.000
And of course, they tweak these medications as well.
00:28:17.800
So I don't think that anything to help with a COVID vaccination down the road may not even
00:28:27.560
And now, Anita, you're saying we sort of, in the present tense, you're talking about
00:28:30.980
your team, even though as we've established, you have been terminated.
00:28:40.380
I know you've said that the time window has not been sufficient for your personal assurances,
00:28:45.700
but is there going to be a time in the next, whatever the months are, where you just quietly
00:28:56.560
If I did, I think the way that the termination went through was very coldly done.
00:29:03.760
I, there was no interest to hear our side of the story, maybe as to why we weren't.
00:29:11.360
And I think maybe being more experienced and having worked there longer, you feel a little
00:29:21.060
So myself going back to work, what would that look like?
00:29:27.820
And I, there's no guarantee that I would go back to my area, which where I was, had
00:29:31.300
become an expert nurse at teaching my clients and formed wonderful relationships with them.
00:29:39.120
So I don't know what that would even look like in the future.
00:29:43.040
So far, there's been, there has not really, there's not been an olive branch out that way
00:29:49.240
Now, the Ontario government has talked about drawing back the vaccine passport starting
00:29:55.380
I appreciate your mandate was brought in by your employer, not by the government.
00:29:58.780
But it does seem that there's already discussion of stepping away from these mandates.
00:30:02.840
Would you then consider re-entering the workplace?
00:30:07.720
Well, I think the question actually, Anthony, it's not on me.
00:30:10.460
I think the question is, would LHSC consider hiring back staff?
00:30:19.720
If they called me and said, everything has changed, could you go back and do your three
00:30:24.820
times weekly testing and follow all protocols tomorrow?
00:30:38.720
Well, let me ask you about the paycheck issue as well.
00:30:44.220
There was one court case, and I want to talk about legal challenges in a moment, where
00:30:47.780
this was challenged for University Health Network, a bunch of hospitals in Toronto.
00:30:51.740
And one of the issues was, well, this basically, these people don't want to get the vaccine,
00:30:55.640
but they have no choice because of paying the rent and supporting their children.
00:30:58.860
And there was a single mother in the mix and so forth.
00:31:03.920
It has this been, have you been left destitute by your decision?
00:31:07.440
Um, I'm not asking for your personal banking information, but there are some people who
00:31:13.300
are more stable either through what their spouse does or what have you or where they're
00:31:18.060
I appreciate you're not at the beginning of your career and so forth.
00:31:21.000
So where has this, what is the level of personal sacrifice for you is what I'm asking.
00:31:26.220
Well, the level of personal sacrifice, my husband is retired.
00:31:28.960
So he, he has his, um, his pension, um, that he's getting.
00:31:34.180
So it's not like he can pick up overtime or anything like that.
00:31:37.700
Um, you know, it's, it's funny because by my age of working after 31 years, you know,
00:31:44.700
you look at it, certain things are kind of set up in your life and I've put two kids
00:31:49.120
Um, so I don't know, in some ways you have less money the longer that you go on in your
00:31:54.100
marriage and personal life, but of course it's a hardship.
00:31:58.300
I mean, to lose that paycheck and no severance and, uh, the laws had been changed for employment
00:32:17.020
Now you've got nothing and you've got no access to government assistance.
00:32:22.820
I was given a couple sheets of paper just saying, you know, I'm not even sure if it
00:32:26.760
said thank you for your years of service, but you're terminated.
00:32:33.060
Certainly wouldn't expect a handshake, not with COVID, but there was no elbow bump or
00:32:39.200
And here is where the coercion comes in, Anthony.
00:32:41.800
You're telling people, okay, you're a single mother.
00:32:45.080
You're, you're a dad who, you know, you've got this going on.
00:32:48.160
What about, what about couples who both work in healthcare?
00:32:53.840
I mean, this is, it is just absolutely criminal that you have people who are willing to stand
00:33:03.660
I mean, this is, people will say, well, you're so selfish.
00:33:07.620
That's a common refrain, certainly the selfish accusation.
00:33:10.020
It's not being selfish because once they can put mandates in like this to cut at the core
00:33:16.780
of, say, healthcare, which is a completely essential piece in society, and they're looking
00:33:22.380
at policing and paramedics, and it goes on and on and on.
00:33:25.080
If we cannot have our freedom of choice, what else is going to be mandated?
00:33:30.220
There was actually something on, I think it was CTV News, just on the online paper the
00:33:34.980
other day, should we start mandating people to go out and vote?
00:33:42.000
Consent is going to be not just medical consent, but for a lot of things.
00:33:48.920
This is really opening up a very big hole, and I think people are focusing in on just
00:33:54.280
one very small piece of it, but you have government legislation changed so that I couldn't
00:34:02.260
That is scary that laws can be changed before an event takes place that they knew was
00:34:08.100
going to happen, and that they could do that and say, nope, if you don't take it, you
00:34:16.960
One thing that I found really interesting and a bit troubling about all of this, Anita,
00:34:20.120
is that we are basically doing a whole podcast episode where I'm asking you about your personal
00:34:25.640
medical choices, your personal medical decisions, why you're doing them, why you're not.
00:34:32.500
And whenever one thinks about whether one should or shouldn't get vaccinated, quite frankly,
00:34:35.560
I find the whole topic a little creepy, that we're supposed to be, you know, writing news
00:34:44.540
You know, there's different reasons why some younger people have concerns, younger women
00:34:48.780
or, you know, people in your situation and so forth.
00:34:51.100
And I'm glad to be having this conversation with you, but I also feel it's just kind of
00:34:54.420
icky to be asking someone, well, did you get, why not?
00:34:59.940
And I understand the opposition parties in government have even at times asked for investigations
00:35:09.800
I mean, you can't, you can't even ask people about disabilities or gender choices when you're
00:35:18.920
And of course, the creepiest part of it is not even just saying, well, have you had your vaccine
00:35:23.760
or not, as soon as I say no, there's such a huge part of the population that goes, oh,
00:35:29.720
she's an anti-vaxxer or, you know, what a terrible person.
00:35:38.800
My, you know, interviews with my managers and I've never had any issues, but suddenly I
00:35:49.760
Yes, you would be like, you know, looking at yourself, you know, how could you not, you
00:35:56.800
I care deeply about the staff that I work with.
00:35:58.940
And I want everybody that I work with, I want every one of those ladies to be able to make
00:36:03.340
their own choice and not have the hospital say, oh, well, this is another shot that we
00:36:08.900
Oh, and so if you don't want to have the boosters, where does this come to?
00:36:13.540
So if somebody says, you know what, I really didn't feel well with those other ones.
00:36:16.880
I've been healthy, the numbers are very low, I don't feel comfortable taking a booster.
00:36:22.600
That's now in our policy to mandate, so are you going to just keep saying, well, you're
00:36:33.620
Anita, let me ask you, when it comes to being called the bad nurse, the selfish nurse, there's
00:36:40.880
been a lot of discussion of how that juxtaposes with a year and a half ago, how you were a
00:36:46.200
hero, and we went out to the streets, and we bang pots and pans for you, and we put
00:36:53.780
Do you know, it's so interesting, because when all that pots and pans banging was going on,
00:36:59.040
I remember actually saying at work, you know, this is really lovely, and it all sounds very
00:37:04.400
great, and you know, and I'm very graciously accepting anybody who says, you know, you're
00:37:11.180
We were actually just doing our jobs, that is what our job is.
00:37:14.960
It was wonderful to have the support, but I do remember saying at work, you just watch,
00:37:19.280
because this is going to change, because you always go from a high to a low, and now we
00:37:24.160
I'm no longer a hero, I am the complete opposite.
00:37:27.640
We're now in a situation where we are seeing new stories about whether or not specific
00:37:33.440
hospitals are going to face staffing shortages.
00:37:35.920
In British Columbia, they did shut down a couple ERs.
00:37:39.480
I'm not sure for how long, I think it was just for some shifts, for certain days, for
00:37:43.760
low periods, but they had staffing issues pretty much as a direct result of bringing
00:37:50.200
There's been similar discussions about whether or not there will need to be reduced surgeries,
00:37:53.820
and I find it very interesting that people are willing to accept this trade-off, because
00:37:58.960
the entire justification for, for instance, my kids' schooling being shut down for many
00:38:03.820
months on end, was we must protect hospital capacity.
00:38:07.980
And I vividly remember, because I was writing about it, and I would ask questions of the
00:38:12.020
medical officers during press conferences, I said, okay, well, why can't we have more beds?
00:38:15.780
And people would say, Anthony, it's not that simple.
00:38:18.040
We can build beds, but it's about nurses, and you can't just, you know, there's a process.
00:38:22.040
People are going through schooling, and it's not people all over the place.
00:38:26.320
And I kind of thought, well, can't you guys expedite this?
00:38:29.520
But no, apparently they couldn't, and so forth.
00:38:31.220
And the healthcare capacity issue was so important.
00:38:34.660
And now I feel like they've been very flippant in saying, okay, let's terminate X number of
00:38:40.600
I don't think we're still clear exactly what the final tally will be.
00:38:43.800
But all of a sudden, these capacity issues seem like they're not as pressing.
00:38:48.120
So, again, very interesting with that, because, you know, you say, so now that we've let staff
00:38:54.760
go, we're short-staffed, we were short-staffed, we've been short-staffed of nursing staff, that's
00:39:02.940
I mean, how does Quebec get to 20,000 nurses short?
00:39:08.320
So, of course, when you do an interview or when you see the hospitals giving their numbers,
00:39:17.180
So, I think our hospital said 84, 87 staff members, not just nurses, inclusive, have been
00:39:23.760
That doesn't speak to, I know, many staff who are still off on sick leave, even before
00:39:30.360
They have not been terminated yet, but they will be if they don't take their vaccination.
00:39:34.700
So, and of course, you hear the byline of patient care will not be affected.
00:39:47.280
And they'll put new nurses in, and I've heard that there's bonuses going on with that, and
00:39:55.760
But I will tell you, I remember being a brand new nurse, and if I didn't have the mentors
00:40:01.200
that I had around me, it is very different going from schooling into working with an
00:40:06.720
actual sick patient and thinking, wait a minute, this was not in the book.
00:40:14.120
My family, the mental health strain on my family, and I think of my poor parents, and
00:40:22.820
And I think of my entire extended family, I mean, the mental health piece of this has
00:40:31.200
Because of everything you mean, like the lockdowns?
00:40:35.520
And then, of course, with, you know, a daughter, wife, mother, sister, you know, losing your job
00:40:41.940
for something that is, I mean, Remembrance Day is coming up.
00:40:49.900
I know we talk about divided families, divided neighborhoods, very upsetting stories about
00:40:55.260
Do you know, I personally haven't been, thank goodness, but I have had, I've had family
00:41:01.460
members for other staff who have just been, I mean, the stories are outrageous.
00:41:06.960
And I'm thinking, the numbers have gone down so low.
00:41:14.800
I mean, literally, marriages are falling apart.
00:41:17.300
Again, suicides, I was speaking to a police officer from Toronto the other day.
00:41:29.860
And my economic fallout, by the way, doesn't just affect myself and my family.
00:41:36.260
But I mean, it's the entire city of London, as people lose these jobs, who is spending money?
00:41:46.720
I mean, it just goes so far down the rabbit hole, doesn't it?
00:41:50.660
I want to get your thoughts on hospital administrators.
00:41:53.020
One thing that has really frustrated me, not at the beginning of the pandemic, but soon after
00:41:58.360
things continue, definitely into the second wave, when we were told we have to go into
00:42:04.820
And whatever lockdown we were in, there were people who would always tell us it's not hard
00:42:09.480
This and that has to be restricted and so forth.
00:42:13.260
A lot of people in Ontario remember that one weekend where the Ford government said, kids
00:42:16.940
playgrounds are being shut down again, and we're going to stop people randomly in the
00:42:28.180
Generally, most hospital administrators who would speak were in favor of everything.
00:42:32.980
And the head of the Ontario Hospital Association, Anthony Dale, was always in favor of the
00:42:37.880
But one thing I never heard much from them, and I did challenge them this in media requests,
00:42:45.020
So they would probably dispute what I'm about to say, but I never heard much about them saying
00:42:49.500
what they're actually doing to manage these capacity issues, to manage the hospital system.
00:42:54.800
And nurses, I'm not exactly sure what the average pay is out there.
00:42:58.440
But I know when I go on the sunshine list, and I look at hospital CEOs, $350,000, $400,000, $500,000, $600,000, $700,000 a year, these individuals are being paid.
00:43:08.900
I would like to think that they are top performers then in their field.
00:43:11.780
I would also like to be able to think that, yes, I know this is unprecedented, but you're
00:43:15.740
supposedly in this job because you're a great leader.
00:43:19.240
I ain't being paid $500,000, figure it out, or you should lose your job.
00:43:24.460
And I think it's kind of interesting that we've got hundreds of nurses who, for whatever reason,
00:43:29.020
what everyone's positioned on the vaccine mandate, Anita, you have been terminated.
00:43:32.300
But correct me if I'm mistaken, I don't think a single hospital administrator who gets paid
00:43:37.180
$500,000 to tell me my kid can't go to school, and that's somehow the solution to the issue
00:43:42.440
that they're managing, none of them have been terminated for, I don't know, I don't think
00:43:48.020
they fully fulfilled the terms of what they should be doing as those high-earning positions.
00:43:52.940
Well, again, well, there's another catch-all question, right?
00:43:57.760
Because you look at it, so, sure, you can look at it like that way.
00:44:03.180
I've seen, Andrea Horvath was in the day before I was, my last shift, October 21st, she came
00:44:08.340
down to London, and she did a little press conference.
00:44:10.720
I actually did a radio, just a small interview that morning.
00:44:15.580
And there she was at St. Joe's, and she said, oh, I've got a plan to hire nurses, and we're
00:44:20.060
going to do great, and, you know, she's going on, and I'm like, where are you going to get
00:44:34.540
It's affecting everything that's within the hospital walls.
00:44:40.380
They're too afraid to come into the hospital, because they might have an unvaccinated staff
00:44:46.120
Well, I guess we're gone right now, and there's a lot of turmoil.
00:44:49.800
We've had, we've seen on the news that there's been, you know, security problems at the hospitals,
00:44:59.060
The bureaucrats are always going to make their top dollar.
00:45:02.020
They make the decisions, and they take all the humanity out of it.
00:45:05.200
I didn't see, like I said, Anthony, I never saw one of those top administrators come down
00:45:12.240
Let's get these, let's get these staff members together.
00:45:18.180
Why don't I talk to them and just see, what is your story?
00:45:25.120
So none of that, no outreach, no talking with you?
00:45:37.980
But to see it actually come out, and like you said yourself, okay, I have family members
00:45:43.540
who have been needed in the healthcare, like who have needed healthcare staff to help them
00:45:49.340
Is waiting in line at Emerge for 12 hours plus?
00:46:00.740
So if it's hard enough to find staff for Toronto and London and Hamilton, if it's hard enough
00:46:08.060
And I mean, they, we always, you know, there's always kind of a little teasing and you think,
00:46:13.280
You know, those rural hospitals, they have big accidents.
00:46:20.600
So, I mean, there's big traumas that they actually have to stabilize.
00:46:24.560
You have to have top-notch staff at all these places.
00:46:29.040
So it's not just the big cities, but we've taken it on ourselves.
00:46:32.400
And the government, everybody wants to look without giving, like you said, not one answer.
00:46:46.020
Anita, before we go, I want to ask you, what happens next?
00:46:54.360
We've established that the vast majority of healthcare workers have been vaccinated.
00:47:01.360
That is causing some challenges, some stresses on the system.
00:47:04.420
We're told we're hiring more nurses, but you've indicated, and I've seen reports of this as
00:47:08.720
well, that in policing and other services, there are a percentage, however small, that are
00:47:14.780
also saying they're going to be resistant to these mandates.
00:47:17.260
It's where do you, from your perspective and the people you're speaking to, where do you
00:47:25.460
I think it's, I think it's still pretty, it's still fairly new in.
00:47:29.400
I think that because these mandates came out and they came out so hard and fast, to roll
00:47:36.000
that back is going to be, well, probably frankly, embarrassing.
00:47:45.720
I think of staff that are, you know what, one of the girls is on maternity leave.
00:47:51.620
She's received a letter that if you're not vaccinated, it actually said, we hope that
00:47:55.180
you're enjoying your new family member, but just to let you know.
00:48:00.260
And I think of all the staff that have reached out and the burden of hearing other people's
00:48:04.400
stories is exactly why administration doesn't want to hear them, because it is a burden to
00:48:11.180
I would really want the, you know, I really want our politicians to get off this rhetoric
00:48:17.260
and that comes right down to our mayor right here in London.
00:48:19.700
I've heard nothing but negative comments and just slurs against people, unfounded on why
00:48:31.020
What I would like to see come out of this, that in the end, the fight for choice works,
00:48:39.100
Yes, I want younger staff to have their jobs back in all capacities, but to be able to be
00:48:44.140
shown the respect that you did stand up for your freedom.
00:48:47.080
And I would really want that these things don't come down as they have already.
00:48:51.200
It's been very painful all around just society.
00:49:00.580
It's just, oh, people are suffering through this.
00:49:03.740
And all that I would want to say is make your choice.
00:49:06.440
If you choose not to vaccinate, follow this process.
00:49:12.060
If you vaccinate, you're still doing all the same processes except testing.
00:49:16.040
So I think we need to look seriously at the positives that have come out of COVID with
00:49:28.120
Throughout a very large hospital system, we have eight COVID patients today.
00:49:35.540
That's not finding something out covertly or something.
00:49:42.400
It's going to be well over 100 staff that will be fired at the end of this for those
00:49:50.260
So I would just, I would want to see our freedom of choice and I want the rhetoric to stop.
00:49:55.880
And I want our politicians to actually stand up for everybody.
00:50:00.840
Anita Davis, we've covered a lot of terrain today.
00:50:12.740
This episode was produced by Andre Pru with theme music by Bryce Hall.
00:50:18.660
You can subscribe to Full Comment on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get
00:50:24.080
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