Full Comment - Why this nurse chose firing over a vaccine

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00:00:48.920 Hi, I'm Anthony Fury.

00:00:50.280 Thanks for joining us for the latest episode of Full Comment.

00:00:53.340 Vaccine mandates have become a very controversial topic,

00:00:56.300 but one thing that many people say is that if they're going to be in any place,

00:00:59.800 it should be in the healthcare sector, where vulnerable people are being treated and where

00:01:04.040 those dealing with the worst bouts of COVID-19 are of course being hospitalized.

00:01:08.500 And while the overwhelming majority of healthcare workers are vaccinated, some are saying no.

00:01:14.080 They're against the policy.

00:01:15.540 Some have taken it to court.

00:01:16.600 Some are willing to get fired over it, including our next guest, a registered nurse who worked in Ontario for 30 years, but has now been let go.

00:01:25.340 Now, I want to be clear because emotions do run high with this issue and even having discussions about this issue,

00:01:31.660 that we're not having this conversation on this podcast because we want to discourage anyone from getting vaccinated.

00:01:36.780 I, myself, like most people in Canada, got the two shots.

00:01:40.280 But I think it's important that instead of just talking about such individuals,

00:01:44.040 we take the time to talk to them and listen to what they have to say.

00:01:48.600 Anita Davis is a registered nurse from London, Ontario. 0.99

00:01:51.420 She joins us now.

00:01:52.300 Hi, Anita. Welcome to the show.

00:01:54.540 Thank you very much.

00:01:55.780 Yeah, thanks for joining us.

00:01:56.880 So off the bat, what is your employment status right now as a registered nurse in Ontario?

00:02:03.080 After 31 years of nursing, I have been terminated as of October the 22nd.

00:02:08.640 And terminated as a result of non-compliance with vaccination policy that I guess you have to comply by by October 22nd.

00:02:17.080 That was the deadline. Is that correct?

00:02:19.000 That's correct.

00:02:19.640 And just so we're clear, what was the policy put in place by the place you worked at, London Health Sciences Centre?

00:02:27.980 So the policy speaks to obviously the COVID vaccination.

00:02:33.140 It was, I guess, demanding that everybody be double vaccinated by October the 22nd or face termination.

00:02:46.680 Now, folks that would have had one vaccination by that time and have to wait, you know, the 21 or 28 days in between,

00:02:54.620 they're put on an unpaid leave right now until they get their second vaccine.

00:02:58.720 Then they will still be on an unpaid leave for 14 days, and then they can come back into the workplace.

00:03:05.840 What situation were you in when you were terminated?

00:03:08.160 I take it that means that you did not have the one dose.

00:03:10.760 You had no dose of the vaccine.

00:03:12.720 That's correct.

00:03:13.380 I haven't taken any vaccines.

00:03:15.560 COVID vaccines.

00:03:16.680 Right.

00:03:17.320 Okay.

00:03:17.760 Well, actually, before I ask you the next question, because you clarified COVID vaccines,

00:03:21.000 you have taken other vaccines.

00:03:23.460 I have.

00:03:24.220 Absolutely.

00:03:25.420 Okay.

00:03:25.740 And the number one question is, why?

00:03:28.100 Why did you choose to not get the COVID vaccine?

00:03:32.020 For me, really looking into the information that's out there, I find it a very one-sided debate,

00:03:37.980 which does make me nervous.

00:03:39.520 But I just, it's really a time piece for me, Anthony.

00:03:46.140 There just hasn't been enough, even immediate term results, let alone long term.

00:03:52.280 And I'm not even talking about, you know, waiting for like 20 years or something.

00:03:56.020 But I feel that for the mandates to come out this quickly, I feel very rushed to make that decision

00:04:03.380 on something that I'm injecting into my body.

00:04:06.200 Um, it's not just something that you're putting on or wearing or having to say.

00:04:13.020 Um, and the other piece, and I don't know how controversial this would be, but certainly,

00:04:18.640 um, there's no recompense.

00:04:21.020 There's nothing that I can do to go back to the vaccine companies to, if there are problems

00:04:26.900 or, or if there are adverse effects and some things, many things can't be changed once

00:04:31.780 they've happened.

00:04:32.620 So you would say side effects.

00:04:33.840 Right.

00:04:34.320 Side effects is predominant.

00:04:35.440 Side effects.

00:04:36.040 And I would even say stronger than that, Anthony, adverse effects.

00:04:39.040 How would you distinguish between the two?

00:04:41.020 Side effects, you know, things that side effects that you would say normally talk about with

00:04:44.920 regular medications or anything, you know, headaches, fatigue.

00:04:48.580 Um, so often, you know, you'll have a shot in your arm and you'll have a sore arm.

00:04:52.540 Those aren't, those aren't things that, you know, I'm not concerned with there, but I just

00:04:57.600 don't have enough, um, long-term data to see how does it go, including needing boosters,

00:05:02.440 which now they're talking about the third booster coming out, how many are there, what's the efficacy

00:05:08.540 truly of, of these vaccines.

00:05:10.720 Um, so there's a lot of questions for myself.

00:05:13.440 Coming from a nursing background, there's too many questions for me to feel comfortable

00:05:17.600 personally to go ahead with it at this time.

00:05:20.460 Uh, now I believe I received my first shot in June of this year.

00:05:25.020 Uh, however, a lot of healthcare professionals would have been able to first receive it in

00:05:29.700 January.

00:05:30.960 Uh, definitely a lot of hospital workers.

00:05:33.120 So when you're talking about people in your situation, your colleagues, I guess there's

00:05:36.800 10 months of, of people who are in your line of work who have had experience having had

00:05:41.040 this vaccine.

00:05:41.580 So you're saying 10 months, uh, that, that, that timeline didn't sort of assuage it.

00:05:45.920 You kind of thought, okay, I've waited out the clock.

00:05:47.420 I'm up to the mandate.

00:05:48.200 Okay, fine.

00:05:48.580 Now I'll get the shot kind of thing at the end of October.

00:05:52.000 Yeah.

00:05:52.440 You know what?

00:05:52.980 I I'm still not, personally, I'm still not comfortable with, with the outcomes of it.

00:05:58.380 And what sort of conversations have happened among you and your colleagues?

00:06:01.820 Because, uh, presumably based on the numbers, most of the people that you work with, the people

00:06:06.200 you're around in, in, in your hospital settings, they have all received the vaccine and probably

00:06:09.660 received it many months, uh, before, but that didn't give you assurances.

00:06:12.900 You know, um, I, now for myself personally, I work in a small clinic, um, area out, actually

00:06:19.980 outside of the hospital and I teach patients how to do their own dialysis at home, their

00:06:25.860 home hemodialysis.

00:06:27.700 And I work with a very small group of just wonderful women. 0.99

00:06:31.580 Um, and we've had such good conversations around this, even, even with their comfort zones.

00:06:38.340 I mean, they, they still have questions.

00:06:40.220 There's questions about boosters, um, and I've made my stance very clear on this.

00:06:46.580 I'm, I'm not some hard line and, you know, anti-vaxxer.

00:06:49.860 That's not where I'm coming from at all.

00:06:52.400 My staff members, all my girls have been so supportive all along.

00:06:55.960 It's been devastating, um, losing a staff member because there are only five nurses left

00:07:01.540 there right now.

00:07:02.940 Um, so I was one of five for the longest time and we've just actually brought somebody

00:07:07.320 else new in, so to lose 20% of your workforce there is, is difficult.

00:07:12.460 So it's, it's been very difficult and knowing that this was coming up, especially since the

00:07:17.420 end of August has made it particularly difficult.

00:07:20.000 It was very hard for me going into work and just knowing that the termination was coming

00:07:24.400 up.

00:07:25.180 Right.

00:07:25.520 So you've, you've spoken openly to your colleagues who you sort of worked the same shifts with

00:07:30.200 and so forth.

00:07:30.820 And by the sounds of it, uh, most of these colleagues were vaccinated themselves, but you, you did just

00:07:35.240 speak about it openly and they knew about your position.

00:07:38.540 Yes.

00:07:39.080 Uh, one of, one of my colleagues, actually a couple of my colleagues, um, were also very

00:07:43.620 vaccine hesitant and you know what did not feel comfortable taking the vaccine, but when

00:07:49.440 you're faced with the coercion of having your job, your livelihood, um, your paycheck taken

00:07:56.980 away from you, um, which is really not playing fair ball, um, what can you do, right?

00:08:05.100 That, that's, that's a very difficult choice to make.

00:08:08.080 Um, so I would say that there's probably a larger number than you think Anthony of, of

00:08:13.020 healthcare workers who have taken, and not just nurses, of course I'm a nurse, but I'm

00:08:16.680 speaking for the entire hospital team for people who have taken their shot and they felt

00:08:22.300 very put under duress to do that, which is no way to have a patient sign a consent for

00:08:28.160 any procedure, let alone, uh, you know, educated staff making that decision as well.

00:08:34.760 And I know Anita, you're not just here speaking in your own capacity, in your own situation.

00:08:38.920 Uh, you've also been a spokesperson for an organization called United Healthcare Workers

00:08:43.360 of Ontario.

00:08:44.380 What is this organization?

00:08:45.580 So, uh, the UHCWO.com, wonderful website, um, Roman Babber's team has been a huge help

00:08:53.700 getting this set up for us because certainly, well, you can see the technical difficulties

00:08:58.560 that come up with somebody who's a professional, let alone taking, um, you know, professionals

00:09:05.100 in healthcare trying to get this started up.

00:09:07.080 So, it's, it's really, it's a grassroots collective of healthcare workers, again, not just

00:09:12.100 nurses, um, anybody who works in healthcare can join and we've, we represent over 3,000

00:09:17.640 healthcare workers in Ontario.

00:09:20.260 So, and these are 3,000 individuals who, uh, have similar questions and concerns, 3,000

00:09:26.600 who, who are definitely not vaccinated, or are there some vaccinated persons who are just

00:09:31.180 sort of, uh, allies for, I guess, choice and opposed to the mandates?

00:09:35.080 What, what is the makeup of the organization?

00:09:36.960 You know what?

00:09:37.660 It's actually all of the above.

00:09:39.060 Uh, we certainly, we have people who are in it who are vaccinated and made their choice

00:09:44.260 and we're happy to make their choice, um, without having to feel under duress and they

00:09:50.620 feel very concerned that these mandates are out there.

00:09:54.200 My, my mission, I guess, if you want to call it that today, is not to speak to being anti-vax

00:10:00.700 and pull out vaccine numbers in that.

00:10:02.740 I want the right, as I want everybody to have their right to make their own choice, because

00:10:09.720 that is essentially what freedom is.

00:10:13.040 Um, of course, and then as our discussion goes on, we'll discuss how, how does that work

00:10:18.300 in a healthcare setting?

00:10:19.240 Well, how does it work in a healthcare setting in terms of what the rules are in place for

00:10:28.780 other vaccines that you need to get?

00:10:31.040 I know of there in stories in the past, uh, the British Columbia Nurses Union actually

00:10:34.740 went to court to fight against nurses having to get the flu shot.

00:10:38.140 I don't believe the union's position was that they were anti-flu shot, uh, but they were in

00:10:42.080 support of choice for it, which is why they went to court, uh, in the first place.

00:10:45.640 What is, what was the status quo prior to this coming into place, this rule for you?

00:10:50.660 Uh, did you have to have the flu shot or other shots or what have you, other immunization

00:10:55.060 records for you to work in your workplace?

00:10:57.540 This is, as far as I know, unless there was something that was, you know, really kind of

00:11:02.060 far out there, this is the only time that we've ever had a vaccine mandate.

00:11:06.540 We've had suggested ones of, you know, shots and vaccine, um, the flu shot, um, the Ontario

00:11:15.280 health association, they did try to put it through so that it would be mandated.

00:11:19.900 And then there was the mask policy with that.

00:11:22.620 And that all came down to choice again.

00:11:24.680 And so just like in BC, um, that ended up falling through as being put in as a forced

00:11:30.480 mandate.

00:11:32.020 Um, yeah.

00:11:33.860 So, um, this is the first time that we've ever seen anything like this at all.

00:11:39.100 So Anita, let me ask you back in January when, uh, the vaccines became available for your

00:11:43.900 colleagues and you saw some of them roll up their sleeve on day one.

00:11:46.520 And it was a very organized campaign.

00:11:48.500 A lot of people, of course, very happy to participate in it.

00:11:50.820 Did you just kind of think, okay, well, this isn't for me.

00:11:53.360 And you thought that that would be it.

00:11:55.300 Or did you expect that a day would come when you were told, okay, you're going to have to

00:11:59.460 choose job or jab?

00:12:01.840 Um, the staff, you know what?

00:12:02.980 Nobody in my staff was even, um, vaccinated that soon.

00:12:06.160 And it kind of rolled out, I think, to like long-term care and high risk.

00:12:11.020 I think that we probably started closer to, with our staff, probably, I would have to say

00:12:15.540 March.

00:12:15.940 That's a bit of a guess, but, um, which isn't a huge change, I guess, from that.

00:12:20.980 Um, we, we had some that were, you know, kind of ran out to get it.

00:12:25.200 Um, others that were, wanted to look into it more.

00:12:29.520 And then of course, a couple of others of us who were, I don't know, can't make that decision

00:12:35.500 yet.

00:12:36.900 What was the general climate in the broader sort of healthcare situation?

00:12:41.380 I know you talked about your immediate workplace and people who you were on shift with the broader

00:12:44.780 discussion, I guess, particularly in the city you're in over healthcare worker perspectives.

00:12:49.160 Cause this is a view that a lot of people, uh, of course are very passionate about whether

00:12:53.060 or not yes, to get the vaccine or in the small numbers of those healthcare workers who

00:12:57.400 say they don't want to receive it.

00:12:59.140 I mean, was it, was it a casual conversation up until the termination came where people

00:13:03.240 relaxed about it in the spring and summer?

00:13:04.940 Because it's become quite acrimonious, uh, of late.

00:13:07.760 Yes.

00:13:08.900 Oh, it's become, it's become, um, personally defining, hasn't it?

00:13:14.380 I mean, you're literally a good person or a bad person, um, a good nurse, a bad nurse.

00:13:19.780 I mean, we've, we've literally drawn the line this hard, which is very unfair.

00:13:24.600 We've left out the other 99.9% of people, uh, like of their personality.

00:13:29.940 People say that on Twitter, you were a bad nurse, but has someone said that to your face?

00:13:34.160 Has a colleague said that to you?

00:13:35.200 Have you been accused of being a bad nurse because of this choice?

00:13:38.420 Never.

00:13:38.860 I've never been accused of being a bad nurse, a little sassy maybe, but that's, but in all

00:13:43.740 of my, you know.

00:13:44.140 No, I mean, because of the, I don't mean in the past 30 years.

00:13:46.060 I mean, recently because of this issue.

00:13:48.060 No, no, I have not had that at all.

00:13:50.860 I've, I've actually had so much support.

00:13:53.260 And again, I think that that, that speaks to, um, how I am as a team member.

00:13:59.940 Um, and, and being accepting of other people's issues that they have in their life.

00:14:04.440 There's more than just the COVID vaccine, which I know we're discussing, but I think that my

00:14:09.080 integrity, um, does show through for that.

00:14:13.200 So did you just get, you know, an email, um, uh, something in the mail, a fax saying, you

00:14:17.220 know, uh, dear Ms. Davis, thank you for your time.

00:14:19.300 You're now terminated.

00:14:19.920 Or is it someone who you knew?

00:14:21.800 Was it a, you know, a healthcare administrator who you've been familiar with over the years

00:14:25.740 to make the call?

00:14:26.520 Hey, Anita, you know, I, I like you personally.

00:14:28.440 I know we're friends, but bad news for you.

00:14:30.320 Like, how did that go down?

00:14:32.220 Um, so first the policy came out, um, and then it was really my immediate manager, um,

00:14:38.640 who had discussion.

00:14:39.640 There was no other outreach from senior management at all.

00:14:44.140 Um, and, you know, uh, many staff members actually didn't even disclose their vaccination status.

00:14:50.620 The reason, the reason that I did, so I, I think literally up until sort of the last

00:14:54.620 day, uh, for many of them, I, I was vocal in the workplace and conversationally vocal

00:15:02.100 in the workplace.

00:15:02.820 So people, we all knew where each other stood with this.

00:15:05.960 So I did feel comfortable coming out and saying that I, um, I think it would have been really,

00:15:12.040 uh, presumptuous of myself to say, you know what, well, maybe I will get it or I'm not

00:15:16.120 sure.

00:15:17.200 Um, and again, I think that that speaks to, we should be bold enough to make our own choices.

00:15:23.360 Now, one thing that I've written about before, and we did a previous podcast episode on vaccine

00:15:27.820 passports for the public more broadly is that I feel like Ontario's and Canada's approach

00:15:32.460 to the passports is incredibly rigid and severe compared to what they're doing in other

00:15:36.620 jurisdictions.

00:15:37.120 So whether or not, uh, you are for or against vaccine passports, I feel like best practices 0.69

00:15:41.960 shows us there's different ways it can be done.

00:15:43.880 So many European countries acknowledge natural immunity for certain time windows, six months,

00:15:48.480 nine months, whatever it is.

00:15:49.480 Uh, they'll also say, okay, you can go and get, uh, get a test, you know, once a week,

00:15:53.840 twice a week, whatever it is, continually to show your negative.

00:15:56.240 And then you get that green check mark still on your passport.

00:15:58.900 They allow for other options.

00:16:00.440 And there's been a lot of discussion that, um, for healthcare workers, why don't we implement

00:16:05.100 these other options just the same way?

00:16:07.380 Anita, would you have been okay with being told, uh, for as long as these rules are in

00:16:11.640 place for the next six months, year, five years, I don't know, you need to get a weekly

00:16:16.380 or a twice weekly or what have you COVID test.

00:16:18.380 Would you have done that?

00:16:20.200 Absolutely.

00:16:20.740 I would have.

00:16:21.320 So this all came about with directive six, uh, that Dr. Karen Moore put out now directive

00:16:26.200 six gives guidelines for what, what recommendations, not laws, recommendations should be out there

00:16:33.060 for healthcare workers.

00:16:33.860 And he, um, amongst, you know, all the usual that, you know, social distancing, masking,

00:16:38.620 hand-washing, we wear our PPE, um, appropriately, um, as needed.

00:16:45.740 Um, I had, you know, initially I wondered if I really did want to do the testing because

00:16:51.680 I knew that it would lead up to, um, termination without taking my shots because of the hospital

00:16:57.120 policy that came out.

00:16:58.100 But, but our hospital mandated that we get tested three times weekly, actually directive

00:17:02.880 six says one time weekly.

00:17:04.120 So I'm, I'm a Monday to Friday worker.

00:17:06.520 Uh, so I would test Monday, Wednesday, Friday, report my results and go in.

00:17:11.480 And the other key piece to this too, is we're always worrying about testing.

00:17:15.700 You know, we're talking about COVID.

00:17:17.120 There are so many other things.

00:17:18.880 I would never even go into work, Anthony, uh, not, not feeling well anyways, whether it

00:17:24.700 was GI or right or respiratory or, you know, feeling sick.

00:17:29.720 So I think part of the responsibility as well is, as on us, I would think that as, as a healthcare

00:17:35.840 staff person, uh, we all know when we're sick and certainly wouldn't go in pre-COVID.

00:17:42.880 If COVID never happened, this, that wouldn't change.

00:17:45.620 So I think that's, it's just even stricter that way too.

00:17:49.320 But yeah, I would be willing to do my three times weekly getting tested.

00:17:53.480 Um, as we know, the vaccines do not, um, they don't stop transmission of COVID.

00:17:59.720 In our numbers today, we had 36% of the positives, um, in Ontario, which is still a very small

00:18:07.260 number.

00:18:08.160 Granted, I mean, if you have 438 people in Ontario, we have 15 million population, but

00:18:14.580 of that number, because they keep insisting on putting those numbers out, 36% today are

00:18:20.840 double vaccinated people.

00:18:22.880 How many of those are healthcare workers? 0.64

00:18:24.800 Maybe none, maybe all of them.

00:18:26.860 So when I go in as an unvaccinated nurse, you don't know to look at me.

00:18:31.140 If you walked in Anthony and you saw me next to a colleague who was double vaccinated, you 0.99

00:18:35.280 don't know the difference.

00:18:36.740 We all wear our masks.

00:18:38.660 We all do the same infection control procedures, but I have gone in and I have got a negative

00:18:45.180 test to be there.

00:18:46.440 If it was positive, of course I would report it and have to go for the PCR test.

00:18:50.960 Um, have you had any sort of outbreak in, in your immediate workplace?

00:18:55.620 You were one of your colleagues, uh, testing positive since this all began?

00:18:59.780 No, no.

00:19:01.800 We have a bit, we have more of an outpatient population, but, um, in, in my area where I've

00:19:07.320 worked, there was, there weren't any, um, outbreaks at all.

00:19:10.200 Let me ask you, because I, I said off the top, a lot of people, you asked them, okay,

00:19:14.900 maybe they're against mandates or they're against it for their own sector and, you know,

00:19:17.900 banking or what have you, but they say, well, healthcare is somewhere we need it.

00:19:20.420 Well, I should put a bit of a caveat on that.

00:19:23.340 I think a lot of people say long-term care homes.

00:19:25.060 That's the place where if you're going to have a vaccine mandate, it's there because

00:19:28.220 we know the majority of persons who have died of COVID-19 in Ontario have been in long-term

00:19:32.680 care facilities.

00:19:33.880 Anita, when you say you're opposed to these mandates, are you opposed to them just for you and your

00:19:37.760 workplace and you would say, okay, I take the point on long-term care.

00:19:41.360 Would you support it being brought in just for those locations?

00:19:45.980 You know, I think a mandate is a mandate.

00:19:48.300 And I think if you're going to have choice now, I think that, uh, perhaps if you, the

00:19:54.320 administration has to take a look at that as well.

00:19:57.280 Why has, why have these things been passed on?

00:20:00.060 The numbers have certainly come down anyways.

00:20:02.720 So, I mean, that's the reality of it.

00:20:04.460 We've had multiple lockdowns.

00:20:06.220 Of course, the lockdown is going to have a huge effect because you're not together out

00:20:11.020 in public at all.

00:20:12.660 So, maybe we need to go back to the long-term care homes and say, so what kind of protection

00:20:18.040 do you have for your staff and patients?

00:20:20.460 How short-staffed are you?

00:20:22.820 Certainly fatigue in a stressful workplace, which they all are right now, Anthony, everywhere.

00:20:29.680 I got to tell you a crazy story about long-term care that happened to me.

00:20:32.840 We, we have a family member who's in a long-term care facility and one of our family members

00:20:36.660 is the designated visitor and was throughout COVID because the rules were very tight.

00:20:40.060 Only one person can go in, you got to wear the mask, you got to this and that.

00:20:42.840 And at one point we were chatting with the relative and he said, all right, well, I'm,

00:20:46.000 you know, I'm off to go visit, uh, I'm off to go visit the family member, uh, at the long-term

00:20:50.120 care center.

00:20:50.720 And, you know, this time, and this was, this was last November.

00:20:54.000 This was 12 months ago in sort of second wave.

00:20:56.760 And in that, I think the lockdown had maybe just begun.

00:20:59.260 And he said, and this time I actually got to show the negative test.

00:21:02.200 And I said, excuse me, what are you talking about?

00:21:04.400 And he had been going to shoppers drug mart once a week to get tested because he was

00:21:07.960 that designated caregiver.

00:21:09.340 And I thought, and I said, what are you talking about?

00:21:11.540 This time you actually have to show the test.

00:21:12.800 He said, oh, I don't know.

00:21:13.440 For the past couple of months, I just walk in and they said, did you test negative?

00:21:16.120 And I said, yes.

00:21:16.820 And they never asked to look at it.

00:21:17.980 So anyway, now I have to show it.

00:21:19.060 And I said, excuse me.

00:21:20.340 And I said, so this is the place.

00:21:22.020 This is, you know, going into the lion's den, this is where we've acknowledged the real,

00:21:25.880 the worst challenges are.

00:21:27.520 And yet these protocols, and we're talking about, okay, you know, kids aren't allowed

00:21:30.880 to, you know, we canceled a kid's sports or it have you, even though we acknowledge

00:21:34.280 that, you know, there wasn't a major threat there, but trickle down and so forth.

00:21:37.120 And yet the actual place where there's big challenges, it was honor system.

00:21:41.840 And it just kind of amazed me, Anita, that we could have such a disconnect.

00:21:44.780 We're fighting over whether or not, you know, small retailers can't be open to one

00:21:47.940 or two young people at the long-term care centers were.

00:21:51.400 And I don't know if this was a standard policy if it was just this one location, but boy,

00:21:54.980 I thought, I can't believe this.

00:21:56.580 That one rule that maybe should be in, the one rule that should most be in place wasn't

00:22:00.900 actually being done.

00:22:02.600 You know what?

00:22:03.540 And how can I disagree with that?

00:22:05.500 So my question, my rebuttal to that then is, so where was the administrator for that?

00:22:11.340 Where was, that is not a staffing piece.

00:22:14.680 I mean, who are you going to report it to if you don't have anybody to go through?

00:22:18.420 Now, I will tell you when I would do my testing here and the other staff that we were doing

00:22:24.600 our, you know, three times weekly testing, there was like 15 steps.

00:22:30.680 Well, really, there's probably about seven steps that I had to go through to actually

00:22:34.320 download it here, upload it here, pass it on here, put a code in, put my three times

00:22:39.840 a week.

00:22:40.460 Now, I know in the public, people will say, well, that's not a big deal.

00:22:44.220 It's a lot to have to, could it not be easier?

00:22:47.100 So in other words, there were a lot of hoops that I had to go through just to even report

00:22:50.540 that I was negative.

00:22:52.260 So that is, I'm sorry, that's an administrative fault because the staff would be getting sick

00:22:59.420 too.

00:23:00.080 Which, how do you know which staff came in?

00:23:02.140 How do you know that the management didn't come in sick?

00:23:04.420 So there's so many unknowns and a lot of finger pointing going on.

00:23:08.880 And I think that the government's really, I think, and administration did drop the ball

00:23:13.540 very early on, hoping that it'd be fine.

00:23:15.800 Look, in the hospitals, we were crying out for PPE.

00:23:20.020 I work in a very, very low risk area.

00:23:24.240 My patients are, they have had, say, maybe previous transplants.

00:23:28.740 So the patients themselves, some of them are higher risk, but because of the way that we're

00:23:34.080 set up, it's a low risk area.

00:23:36.300 Well, let me ask, because you've acknowledged that there's some patients who are higher risk.

00:23:39.960 And I guess a lot of the people out there, the people who are saying, bad nurse, they

00:23:43.800 would say, well, there you go, Anita.

00:23:45.400 That's why we need the policy in place.

00:23:47.720 That's why you should be vaccinated.

00:23:49.100 Why you should have either A, made the choice or B, complied with the mandate and gotten

00:23:53.820 vaccinated.

00:23:54.500 And that's why we need to terminate you for not doing it.

00:23:56.540 Because you were, in fact, putting your patients at risk is what some individuals will say.

00:24:01.220 And I've heard doctors say that on TV and so forth.

00:24:03.260 How do you respond to that?

00:24:04.760 So I respond to that by just finishing off what I was saying.

00:24:07.920 So in our ICUs, when this first came out, the staff were reusing the same masks.

00:24:13.140 You had to go to your manager to get a mask.

00:24:16.860 PPE was short.

00:24:18.400 So our numbers were very high.

00:24:19.840 And of course, COVID was new.

00:24:21.100 So you have very high numbers.

00:24:22.160 So we weren't being serviced properly that way.

00:24:28.500 Now, as to speaking for how do we keep our patients safe, again, Anthony, COVID is not

00:24:33.540 the only disease that has walked through our hospital doors.

00:24:35.820 I've worked in eMERGE.

00:24:37.180 You're completely frontline, yourselves and the paramedics.

00:24:41.440 So how did I keep my safe and not get different diseases?

00:24:45.100 How did I not pass anything on to my patients?

00:24:47.560 Well, I use universal precautions.

00:24:49.740 Even back then, before you had all the infection control, I guess, units that are out there and

00:24:58.980 policies, we still did, you still gloved masks, washed your hands frequently.

00:25:05.440 So we have excellent practices already in hospitals.

00:25:09.680 I can't speak to family members that we're visiting or, you know, going back to visit your

00:25:14.980 own families or friends.

00:25:16.800 I can't speak to that piece.

00:25:18.420 But once you come into our doors, people should feel very safe.

00:25:23.820 And, you know, interestingly enough, I'm unvaccinated.

00:25:27.280 I was willing to go into work.

00:25:29.840 The vast majority of staff and even patients are vaccinated.

00:25:34.460 And this is where I feel the pushback coming.

00:25:37.120 It's not the unvaccinated staff saying, you have to make sure that I'm safe.

00:25:41.040 We do keep ourselves safe.

00:25:43.480 But it's the vaccinated people who are going around with lots of fear and a lot of rhetoric.

00:25:51.400 I certainly do see that playing out a little bit.

00:25:53.360 It has been interesting to see that the Ontario chief medical officer had to issue a directive

00:25:57.460 to health care providers to tell them, you need to see patients.

00:26:01.280 That came out a few weeks ago.

00:26:02.900 And that was quite something that the government needed to tell doctors that, like, I don't

00:26:07.880 kind of need to do their job.

00:26:09.300 Like he said, yes, virtual care is a thing for, you know, for a number of things.

00:26:13.000 We're going to move in that direction.

00:26:13.940 But there are a lot of cases where you have to see patients in person.

00:26:16.920 And I have personally heard stories from friends who, you know, had a kid who was sick.

00:26:20.700 And they said, look, we got to get them checked out.

00:26:22.360 And the medical clinic would say, we will not accept you.

00:26:24.860 You have to go to ER, which is what led to this directive being issued.

00:26:29.020 And I think, Anita, to your point that these doctors, they themselves and their staff, I

00:26:33.560 imagine, have received two doses of the vaccine.

00:26:36.440 And yet they aren't willing to see patients.

00:26:38.380 And you're saying that you did not receive the vaccine, but you were willing to go to work

00:26:42.680 and take on your shifts.

00:26:44.200 So perhaps this is really a risk perception issue.

00:26:47.740 Well, and this is exactly the point, Anthony.

00:26:51.080 I mean, when you look at it, do you, so again, good person takes the vaccine, bad person doesn't

00:26:57.960 take the vaccine.

00:26:58.920 We see our politicians, the rhetoric going on.

00:27:03.560 And you look at it and go, but if you believe so deeply in your vaccination, what are you worried

00:27:10.900 about?

00:27:12.900 Why is it that the vaccinated or unvaccinated staff are the ones that are being pushed away?

00:27:17.740 But it's never said for our own safety, right?

00:27:22.040 We still, I have girls that I know that have still been going and working in the intensive

00:27:27.820 care units up until they were fired.

00:27:30.100 Well-seasoned, experienced nurses that didn't have the vaccine.

00:27:35.300 And they would have been treating COVID patients as well.

00:27:37.840 Absolutely, right?

00:27:39.300 So, and did not get sick, by the way.

00:27:42.040 And again, would follow all their PPE guidelines.

00:27:45.860 And yeah, it's sort of taken, I think the whole media perspective, I'm not sure what

00:27:54.860 the goal, the goalpost keeps moving as well.

00:27:57.000 Are we looking for zero?

00:27:58.780 We'll never get to zero.

00:28:01.560 I think we need to start looking and how do we move on from this?

00:28:05.740 We've got more boosters coming as well.

00:28:07.940 We've got the third group.

00:28:10.400 At what point do we say, maybe the technology isn't quite here yet?

00:28:15.000 And of course, they tweak these medications as well.

00:28:17.800 So I don't think that anything to help with a COVID vaccination down the road may not even

00:28:25.520 look anything like what we have now.

00:28:27.560 And now, Anita, you're saying we sort of, in the present tense, you're talking about

00:28:30.980 your team, even though as we've established, you have been terminated.

00:28:33.640 Are you planning to go back to the workplace?

00:28:36.920 Would you like to do that?

00:28:38.080 If either, well, let me ask you this.

00:28:40.380 I know you've said that the time window has not been sufficient for your personal assurances,

00:28:45.700 but is there going to be a time in the next, whatever the months are, where you just quietly

00:28:51.080 go get vaccinated one day?

00:28:53.600 I, you know what, I can't speak to that yet.

00:28:56.560 If I did, I think the way that the termination went through was very coldly done.

00:29:03.760 I, there was no interest to hear our side of the story, maybe as to why we weren't.

00:29:10.300 I did speak my mind.

00:29:11.360 And I think maybe being more experienced and having worked there longer, you feel a little

00:29:15.200 bit, maybe a bit more assertive that way.

00:29:19.800 I don't know.

00:29:21.060 So myself going back to work, what would that look like?

00:29:23.760 I lose all seniority.

00:29:25.960 Not sure where I would fit back in.

00:29:27.820 And I, there's no guarantee that I would go back to my area, which where I was, had

00:29:31.300 become an expert nurse at teaching my clients and formed wonderful relationships with them.

00:29:36.460 Actually, I've heard from them.

00:29:39.120 So I don't know what that would even look like in the future.

00:29:43.040 So far, there's been, there has not really, there's not been an olive branch out that way

00:29:46.440 anyways.

00:29:46.780 So it's not really a concern right now.

00:29:49.240 Now, the Ontario government has talked about drawing back the vaccine passport starting

00:29:53.300 January 15th, which is not the same thing.

00:29:55.380 I appreciate your mandate was brought in by your employer, not by the government.

00:29:58.780 But it does seem that there's already discussion of stepping away from these mandates.

00:30:02.840 Would you then consider re-entering the workplace?

00:30:05.760 Would you want to do it?

00:30:07.720 Well, I think the question actually, Anthony, it's not on me.

00:30:10.460 I think the question is, would LHSC consider hiring back staff?

00:30:15.060 It's really, the ball is in their court.

00:30:17.080 I have no say in it.

00:30:19.720 If they called me and said, everything has changed, could you go back and do your three

00:30:24.820 times weekly testing and follow all protocols tomorrow?

00:30:29.660 I would go back tomorrow.

00:30:31.960 Because, well, I mean, there's the paycheck.

00:30:34.560 Obviously, that's just being really honest.

00:30:37.060 That's why most people work, right?

00:30:38.720 Well, let me ask you about the paycheck issue as well.

00:30:41.080 But I did look what I do.

00:30:42.020 Yeah.

00:30:42.680 Asking you about the paycheck issue as well.

00:30:44.220 There was one court case, and I want to talk about legal challenges in a moment, where

00:30:47.780 this was challenged for University Health Network, a bunch of hospitals in Toronto.

00:30:51.740 And one of the issues was, well, this basically, these people don't want to get the vaccine,

00:30:55.640 but they have no choice because of paying the rent and supporting their children.

00:30:58.860 And there was a single mother in the mix and so forth. 1.00

00:31:01.120 You're 31 years into your career.

00:31:03.920 It has this been, have you been left destitute by your decision?

00:31:07.440 Um, I'm not asking for your personal banking information, but there are some people who

00:31:13.300 are more stable either through what their spouse does or what have you or where they're

00:31:17.120 at in their career.

00:31:18.060 I appreciate you're not at the beginning of your career and so forth.

00:31:21.000 So where has this, what is the level of personal sacrifice for you is what I'm asking.

00:31:26.220 Well, the level of personal sacrifice, my husband is retired.

00:31:28.960 So he, he has his, um, his pension, um, that he's getting.

00:31:34.180 So it's not like he can pick up overtime or anything like that.

00:31:37.700 Um, you know, it's, it's funny because by my age of working after 31 years, you know,

00:31:44.700 you look at it, certain things are kind of set up in your life and I've put two kids

00:31:48.060 through school.

00:31:49.120 Um, so I don't know, in some ways you have less money the longer that you go on in your

00:31:54.100 marriage and personal life, but of course it's a hardship.

00:31:58.300 I mean, to lose that paycheck and no severance and, uh, the laws had been changed for employment

00:32:06.060 to get EI, which I've paid into for years.

00:32:09.980 Um, right.

00:32:10.740 So let's be clear on this.

00:32:11.400 You got no severance, no package.

00:32:13.840 You can't get EI.

00:32:14.920 So you were making money.

00:32:16.040 You're getting that paycheck.

00:32:17.020 Now you've got nothing and you've got no access to government assistance.

00:32:19.820 Is that how it works?

00:32:21.420 Absolutely not.

00:32:22.440 Nope.

00:32:22.820 I was given a couple sheets of paper just saying, you know, I'm not even sure if it

00:32:26.760 said thank you for your years of service, but you're terminated.

00:32:30.100 Here's what's going on.

00:32:31.200 And that, that was it.

00:32:33.060 Certainly wouldn't expect a handshake, not with COVID, but there was no elbow bump or

00:32:36.780 anything.

00:32:37.440 So no, they've just let people go.

00:32:39.200 And here is where the coercion comes in, Anthony.

00:32:41.800 You're telling people, okay, you're a single mother.

00:32:45.080 You're, you're a dad who, you know, you've got this going on.

00:32:48.160 What about, what about couples who both work in healthcare?

00:32:51.760 I've had them reach out to me all over.

00:32:53.840 I mean, this is, it is just absolutely criminal that you have people who are willing to stand

00:33:00.760 up for freedom.

00:33:01.600 This is not just for my choice too, Anthony.

00:33:03.660 I mean, this is, people will say, well, you're so selfish.

00:33:05.860 I've heard that.

00:33:07.080 Do you know what this is?

00:33:07.620 That's a common refrain, certainly the selfish accusation.

00:33:10.020 It's not being selfish because once they can put mandates in like this to cut at the core

00:33:16.780 of, say, healthcare, which is a completely essential piece in society, and they're looking

00:33:22.380 at policing and paramedics, and it goes on and on and on.

00:33:25.080 If we cannot have our freedom of choice, what else is going to be mandated?

00:33:30.220 There was actually something on, I think it was CTV News, just on the online paper the

00:33:34.980 other day, should we start mandating people to go out and vote?

00:33:38.120 And I thought, here's the word mandate.

00:33:40.360 It's a very slippery slope.

00:33:42.000 Consent is going to be not just medical consent, but for a lot of things.

00:33:48.920 This is really opening up a very big hole, and I think people are focusing in on just

00:33:54.280 one very small piece of it, but you have government legislation changed so that I couldn't

00:34:00.460 even apply for EI.

00:34:02.260 That is scary that laws can be changed before an event takes place that they knew was

00:34:08.100 going to happen, and that they could do that and say, nope, if you don't take it, you

00:34:13.040 can't get any recompense.

00:34:14.580 That is, that's dirty pool.

00:34:16.960 One thing that I found really interesting and a bit troubling about all of this, Anita,

00:34:20.120 is that we are basically doing a whole podcast episode where I'm asking you about your personal

00:34:25.640 medical choices, your personal medical decisions, why you're doing them, why you're not.

00:34:30.520 And that's been very normalized in society.

00:34:32.500 And whenever one thinks about whether one should or shouldn't get vaccinated, quite frankly,

00:34:35.560 I find the whole topic a little creepy, that we're supposed to be, you know, writing news

00:34:41.440 stories about specific individuals' choices.

00:34:44.540 You know, there's different reasons why some younger people have concerns, younger women 1.00

00:34:48.780 or, you know, people in your situation and so forth.

00:34:51.100 And I'm glad to be having this conversation with you, but I also feel it's just kind of

00:34:54.420 icky to be asking someone, well, did you get, why not?

00:34:57.500 What are your concerns and so forth?

00:34:58.720 And yet we're doing it all over the place.

00:34:59.940 And I understand the opposition parties in government have even at times asked for investigations

00:35:03.600 into specific people's medical choices.

00:35:06.000 It's quite something.

00:35:07.900 Well, and I totally agree.

00:35:09.800 I mean, you can't, you can't even ask people about disabilities or gender choices when you're

00:35:16.780 hiring for anything.

00:35:18.920 And of course, the creepiest part of it is not even just saying, well, have you had your vaccine

00:35:23.760 or not, as soon as I say no, there's such a huge part of the population that goes, oh,

00:35:29.720 she's an anti-vaxxer or, you know, what a terrible person. 1.00

00:35:32.840 She's so selfish and what a horrible nurse. 1.00

00:35:35.820 I have excellence all over my career. 0.80

00:35:38.800 My, you know, interviews with my managers and I've never had any issues, but suddenly I

00:35:46.280 am branded as an uncaring nurse. 0.85

00:35:49.760 Yes, you would be like, you know, looking at yourself, you know, how could you not, you

00:35:54.800 don't care about the staff you work with.

00:35:56.800 I care deeply about the staff that I work with.

00:35:58.940 And I want everybody that I work with, I want every one of those ladies to be able to make 1.00

00:36:03.340 their own choice and not have the hospital say, oh, well, this is another shot that we

00:36:08.000 think you should get.

00:36:08.900 Oh, and so if you don't want to have the boosters, where does this come to?

00:36:13.540 So if somebody says, you know what, I really didn't feel well with those other ones.

00:36:16.880 I've been healthy, the numbers are very low, I don't feel comfortable taking a booster.

00:36:22.600 That's now in our policy to mandate, so are you going to just keep saying, well, you're

00:36:28.640 going to be fired?

00:36:30.300 It's a very slippery slope again.

00:36:33.620 Anita, let me ask you, when it comes to being called the bad nurse, the selfish nurse, there's 0.91

00:36:40.880 been a lot of discussion of how that juxtaposes with a year and a half ago, how you were a

00:36:46.200 hero, and we went out to the streets, and we bang pots and pans for you, and we put

00:36:50.140 signs on our windows.

00:36:53.780 Do you know, it's so interesting, because when all that pots and pans banging was going on,

00:36:59.040 I remember actually saying at work, you know, this is really lovely, and it all sounds very

00:37:04.400 great, and you know, and I'm very graciously accepting anybody who says, you know, you're

00:37:09.680 heroes in that.

00:37:11.180 We were actually just doing our jobs, that is what our job is.

00:37:14.960 It was wonderful to have the support, but I do remember saying at work, you just watch,

00:37:19.280 because this is going to change, because you always go from a high to a low, and now we

00:37:23.740 are there.

00:37:24.160 I'm no longer a hero, I am the complete opposite.

00:37:27.640 We're now in a situation where we are seeing new stories about whether or not specific

00:37:33.440 hospitals are going to face staffing shortages.

00:37:35.920 In British Columbia, they did shut down a couple ERs.

00:37:39.480 I'm not sure for how long, I think it was just for some shifts, for certain days, for

00:37:43.760 low periods, but they had staffing issues pretty much as a direct result of bringing

00:37:47.580 the vaccine mandate.

00:37:48.520 This was in the interior of BC.

00:37:50.200 There's been similar discussions about whether or not there will need to be reduced surgeries,

00:37:53.820 and I find it very interesting that people are willing to accept this trade-off, because

00:37:58.960 the entire justification for, for instance, my kids' schooling being shut down for many

00:38:03.820 months on end, was we must protect hospital capacity.

00:38:07.980 And I vividly remember, because I was writing about it, and I would ask questions of the

00:38:12.020 medical officers during press conferences, I said, okay, well, why can't we have more beds?

00:38:15.780 And people would say, Anthony, it's not that simple.

00:38:18.040 We can build beds, but it's about nurses, and you can't just, you know, there's a process. 1.00

00:38:22.040 People are going through schooling, and it's not people all over the place.

00:38:24.760 It takes time, and so forth.

00:38:26.320 And I kind of thought, well, can't you guys expedite this?

00:38:28.460 This is the most pressing issue.

00:38:29.520 But no, apparently they couldn't, and so forth.

00:38:31.220 And the healthcare capacity issue was so important.

00:38:34.660 And now I feel like they've been very flippant in saying, okay, let's terminate X number of

00:38:40.280 nurses.

00:38:40.600 I don't think we're still clear exactly what the final tally will be.

00:38:43.800 But all of a sudden, these capacity issues seem like they're not as pressing.

00:38:48.120 So, again, very interesting with that, because, you know, you say, so now that we've let staff

00:38:54.760 go, we're short-staffed, we were short-staffed, we've been short-staffed of nursing staff, that's

00:38:59.480 what I can kind of speak to, for years.

00:39:01.860 This is nothing new.

00:39:02.940 I mean, how does Quebec get to 20,000 nurses short?

00:39:06.800 I mean, it didn't just happen over COVID.

00:39:08.320 So, of course, when you do an interview or when you see the hospitals giving their numbers,

00:39:14.960 they'll minimize it.

00:39:17.180 So, I think our hospital said 84, 87 staff members, not just nurses, inclusive, have been

00:39:22.760 let go.

00:39:23.760 That doesn't speak to, I know, many staff who are still off on sick leave, even before

00:39:28.940 this maternity leaves and that. 1.00

00:39:30.360 They have not been terminated yet, but they will be if they don't take their vaccination.

00:39:34.700 So, and of course, you hear the byline of patient care will not be affected.

00:39:41.220 We will mitigate the losses.

00:39:43.260 How will you do that?

00:39:44.620 How is that possible?

00:39:44.920 It's not even possible, Anthony.

00:39:47.280 And they'll put new nurses in, and I've heard that there's bonuses going on with that, and

00:39:53.200 that's great.

00:39:53.980 You know what?

00:39:54.480 More power to those young girls. 0.51

00:39:55.760 But I will tell you, I remember being a brand new nurse, and if I didn't have the mentors

00:40:01.200 that I had around me, it is very different going from schooling into working with an 0.98

00:40:06.720 actual sick patient and thinking, wait a minute, this was not in the book.

00:40:11.360 So, in the end, I've suffered.

00:40:14.120 My family, the mental health strain on my family, and I think of my poor parents, and

00:40:19.280 they have health issues, especially my father.

00:40:22.820 And I think of my entire extended family, I mean, the mental health piece of this has

00:40:28.300 just been just out of control.

00:40:31.200 Because of everything you mean, like the lockdowns?

00:40:33.560 Oh, just from everything.

00:40:35.520 And then, of course, with, you know, a daughter, wife, mother, sister, you know, losing your job

00:40:41.940 for something that is, I mean, Remembrance Day is coming up.

00:40:45.220 This was a fight for freedom.

00:40:46.680 We're right there again.

00:40:48.140 Have you been socially ostracized, Anita?

00:40:49.900 I know we talk about divided families, divided neighborhoods, very upsetting stories about

00:40:54.300 that stuff.

00:40:55.260 Do you know, I personally haven't been, thank goodness, but I have had, I've had family

00:41:01.460 members for other staff who have just been, I mean, the stories are outrageous.

00:41:06.960 And I'm thinking, the numbers have gone down so low.

00:41:11.460 Okay, so why is, why is this?

00:41:14.800 I mean, literally, marriages are falling apart.

00:41:17.300 Again, suicides, I was speaking to a police officer from Toronto the other day.

00:41:23.120 Suicide rates are through the roof.

00:41:25.440 Nobody's talking about this.

00:41:26.800 The fallout is, it's more than economic.

00:41:29.860 And my economic fallout, by the way, doesn't just affect myself and my family.

00:41:34.420 For me, that's what I do worry about.

00:41:36.260 But I mean, it's the entire city of London, as people lose these jobs, who is spending money?

00:41:43.240 I mean, and it becomes in your tax base.

00:41:46.720 I mean, it just goes so far down the rabbit hole, doesn't it?

00:41:50.660 I want to get your thoughts on hospital administrators.

00:41:53.020 One thing that has really frustrated me, not at the beginning of the pandemic, but soon after

00:41:58.360 things continue, definitely into the second wave, when we were told we have to go into

00:42:02.760 lockdown, we have to shut everything down.

00:42:04.820 And whatever lockdown we were in, there were people who would always tell us it's not hard

00:42:08.200 enough.

00:42:08.560 There's too much mobility.

00:42:09.480 This and that has to be restricted and so forth.

00:42:11.720 And we went into some crazy terrain.

00:42:13.260 A lot of people in Ontario remember that one weekend where the Ford government said, kids

00:42:16.940 playgrounds are being shut down again, and we're going to stop people randomly in the

00:42:20.600 street.

00:42:20.880 And we're going to do street checks.

00:42:21.840 And there is a major uproar against all that.

00:42:24.340 That was quite a moment there.

00:42:25.420 So we've gone in quite severe terrain.

00:42:28.180 Generally, most hospital administrators who would speak were in favor of everything.

00:42:32.980 And the head of the Ontario Hospital Association, Anthony Dale, was always in favor of the

00:42:36.780 most aggressive restrictions.

00:42:37.880 But one thing I never heard much from them, and I did challenge them this in media requests,

00:42:42.160 and they sent emails addressing the concern.

00:42:45.020 So they would probably dispute what I'm about to say, but I never heard much about them saying

00:42:49.500 what they're actually doing to manage these capacity issues, to manage the hospital system.

00:42:54.800 And nurses, I'm not exactly sure what the average pay is out there. 0.99

00:42:58.440 But I know when I go on the sunshine list, and I look at hospital CEOs, $350,000, $400,000, $500,000, $600,000, $700,000 a year, these individuals are being paid.

00:43:08.900 I would like to think that they are top performers then in their field.

00:43:11.780 I would also like to be able to think that, yes, I know this is unprecedented, but you're

00:43:15.740 supposedly in this job because you're a great leader.

00:43:18.080 I don't have all the answers.

00:43:19.240 I ain't being paid $500,000, figure it out, or you should lose your job.

00:43:24.460 And I think it's kind of interesting that we've got hundreds of nurses who, for whatever reason,

00:43:29.020 what everyone's positioned on the vaccine mandate, Anita, you have been terminated.

00:43:32.300 But correct me if I'm mistaken, I don't think a single hospital administrator who gets paid

00:43:37.180 $500,000 to tell me my kid can't go to school, and that's somehow the solution to the issue

00:43:42.440 that they're managing, none of them have been terminated for, I don't know, I don't think

00:43:48.020 they fully fulfilled the terms of what they should be doing as those high-earning positions.

00:43:52.940 Well, again, well, there's another catch-all question, right?

00:43:57.760 Because you look at it, so, sure, you can look at it like that way.

00:44:01.680 What about our governments?

00:44:03.180 I've seen, Andrea Horvath was in the day before I was, my last shift, October 21st, she came

00:44:08.340 down to London, and she did a little press conference.

00:44:10.720 I actually did a radio, just a small interview that morning.

00:44:15.580 And there she was at St. Joe's, and she said, oh, I've got a plan to hire nurses, and we're

00:44:20.060 going to do great, and, you know, she's going on, and I'm like, where are you going to get

00:44:23.920 these nurses? 1.00

00:44:25.080 There's, again, just so many empty words.

00:44:27.740 So, this comes really from the top down.

00:44:30.620 Where does the buck stop?

00:44:32.660 Do you know where the buck stops right now?

00:44:34.540 It's affecting everything that's within the hospital walls.

00:44:37.260 It is, it's ultimately affecting patients.

00:44:40.380 They're too afraid to come into the hospital, because they might have an unvaccinated staff

00:44:45.660 person.

00:44:46.120 Well, I guess we're gone right now, and there's a lot of turmoil.

00:44:49.800 We've had, we've seen on the news that there's been, you know, security problems at the hospitals,

00:44:55.920 and that people are upset, and they're scared.

00:44:59.060 The bureaucrats are always going to make their top dollar. 1.00

00:45:02.020 They make the decisions, and they take all the humanity out of it.

00:45:05.200 I didn't see, like I said, Anthony, I never saw one of those top administrators come down

00:45:10.880 and say, you know what?

00:45:12.240 Let's get these, let's get these staff members together.

00:45:14.480 Let's just do a Zoom.

00:45:15.860 You don't even have to be physically there.

00:45:18.180 Why don't I talk to them and just see, what is your story?

00:45:21.680 Let me understand this.

00:45:23.200 But it's all become very political.

00:45:25.120 So none of that, no outreach, no talking with you?

00:45:28.180 None.

00:45:29.100 Absolutely, absolutely none.

00:45:32.200 So we're just numbers.

00:45:35.660 And you know what?

00:45:36.360 I have known that for a long time.

00:45:37.980 But to see it actually come out, and like you said yourself, okay, I have family members

00:45:43.540 who have been needed in the healthcare, like who have needed healthcare staff to help them

00:45:48.640 out.

00:45:49.340 Is waiting in line at Emerge for 12 hours plus?

00:45:53.680 Is that good care?

00:45:54.560 No.

00:45:55.840 Surgery's shut down.

00:45:57.060 This has happened right here.

00:45:59.200 What about our rural hospitals?

00:46:00.740 So if it's hard enough to find staff for Toronto and London and Hamilton, if it's hard enough

00:46:05.180 there, what are the rural hospitals?

00:46:08.060 And I mean, they, we always, you know, there's always kind of a little teasing and you think,

00:46:12.280 oh, well, what do they do?

00:46:13.280 You know, those rural hospitals, they have big accidents.

00:46:17.200 They're usually by cottagers.

00:46:20.600 So, I mean, there's big traumas that they actually have to stabilize.

00:46:24.560 You have to have top-notch staff at all these places.

00:46:29.040 So it's not just the big cities, but we've taken it on ourselves.

00:46:32.400 And the government, everybody wants to look without giving, like you said, not one answer.

00:46:38.340 Fire everybody.

00:46:38.840 That is not, that is not an answer.

00:46:41.700 That does not help the patients.

00:46:43.360 That doesn't help anybody.

00:46:46.020 Anita, before we go, I want to ask you, what happens next?

00:46:50.220 What happens next for you?

00:46:52.080 What happens next for the healthcare system?

00:46:54.360 We've established that the vast majority of healthcare workers have been vaccinated.

00:46:58.780 There are some who don't want to be.

00:47:00.160 They're being terminated.

00:47:01.360 That is causing some challenges, some stresses on the system.

00:47:04.420 We're told we're hiring more nurses, but you've indicated, and I've seen reports of this as

00:47:08.720 well, that in policing and other services, there are a percentage, however small, that are

00:47:14.780 also saying they're going to be resistant to these mandates.

00:47:17.260 It's where do you, from your perspective and the people you're speaking to, where do you

00:47:22.440 think this is headed next?

00:47:25.460 I think it's, I think it's still pretty, it's still fairly new in.

00:47:29.400 I think that because these mandates came out and they came out so hard and fast, to roll

00:47:36.000 that back is going to be, well, probably frankly, embarrassing.

00:47:40.580 But will they be rolling it back?

00:47:42.080 Will it?

00:47:42.420 Well, and I don't even know that, right?

00:47:44.120 So there's so much that's up in the air.

00:47:45.720 I think of staff that are, you know what, one of the girls is on maternity leave. 0.69

00:47:50.460 She's worrying about this.

00:47:51.620 She's received a letter that if you're not vaccinated, it actually said, we hope that

00:47:55.180 you're enjoying your new family member, but just to let you know.

00:48:00.260 And I think of all the staff that have reached out and the burden of hearing other people's

00:48:04.400 stories is exactly why administration doesn't want to hear them, because it is a burden to

00:48:09.860 hear that and it's heartbreaking.

00:48:11.180 I would really want the, you know, I really want our politicians to get off this rhetoric

00:48:17.260 and that comes right down to our mayor right here in London.

00:48:19.700 I've heard nothing but negative comments and just slurs against people, unfounded on why

00:48:27.460 they've made choice.

00:48:29.940 What would I like to see come of?

00:48:31.020 What I would like to see come out of this, that in the end, the fight for choice works,

00:48:36.200 not just necessarily, yes, I want my job back.

00:48:39.100 Yes, I want younger staff to have their jobs back in all capacities, but to be able to be

00:48:44.140 shown the respect that you did stand up for your freedom.

00:48:47.080 And I would really want that these things don't come down as they have already.

00:48:51.200 It's been very painful all around just society.

00:48:56.860 Mental health care is at an all-time low.

00:49:00.580 It's just, oh, people are suffering through this.

00:49:03.740 And all that I would want to say is make your choice.

00:49:06.440 If you choose not to vaccinate, follow this process.

00:49:10.200 No problem.

00:49:11.060 I will do that.

00:49:12.060 If you vaccinate, you're still doing all the same processes except testing.

00:49:16.040 So I think we need to look seriously at the positives that have come out of COVID with

00:49:24.000 our numbers going down.

00:49:25.740 We have eight today at my hospital.

00:49:28.120 Throughout a very large hospital system, we have eight COVID patients today.

00:49:33.840 And that's on their website.

00:49:35.540 That's not finding something out covertly or something.

00:49:38.860 And so you have fired how many staff?

00:49:42.400 It's going to be well over 100 staff that will be fired at the end of this for those

00:49:48.340 low numbers.

00:49:50.260 So I would just, I would want to see our freedom of choice and I want the rhetoric to stop.

00:49:55.880 And I want our politicians to actually stand up for everybody.

00:50:00.840 Anita Davis, we've covered a lot of terrain today.

00:50:03.320 We have.

00:50:03.800 Thanks for joining us.

00:50:04.680 Thank you for the conversation.

00:50:05.860 Thank you.

00:50:06.900 All the best.

00:50:08.000 Take care.

00:50:09.780 Full Comment is a post-media podcast.

00:50:11.280 I'm Anthony Fury.

00:50:12.740 This episode was produced by Andre Pru with theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:50:16.560 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:50:18.660 You can subscribe to Full Comment on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get

00:50:23.060 your podcasts.

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00:50:27.840 Thanks for listening.

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00:50:29.620 Thank you.

00:50:30.320 Thank you.

00:50:31.440 Thank you.

00:50:31.940 You

Full Comment - November 08, 2021

Why this nurse chose firing over a vaccine

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