Defending Real Women with Piers Morgan
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Summary
Today's guest is someone I've been watching for a long time, Piers Morgan. He has been a leading voice for women, for restoring sanity, not just in the U.S., of course, but internationally, and we will get into all things free speech, of course. We will discuss the issue of women's sports and what this means, and how to restore sanity in the broader picture of the world.
Transcript
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Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line, but first...
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There, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes.
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Welcome back to the Gains for Girls podcast. I hope everyone had a wonderful and happy
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Thanksgiving. Today's guest is someone that I've been watching for a long time, ever since I was
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young. I've been on his show several times, and so this is kind of like a full circle moment for me.
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He has been a leading voice for women, for restoring sanity, not just in the U.S., of course,
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but internationally. We will get into all things free speech, of course, the issue of women's sports
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and what this means and how to restore, again, this country, but the broader picture of the world.
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So, Piers, thank you so much for coming on. It is so nice to see you. My husband is actually
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a Brit. He's from Manchester, and all of his family still lives there, and so I've been following what's
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going on in Europe, especially in Ireland and France and in London, and like I was saying,
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it seems like it's a total mess at the moment. You have people who are climbing on British monuments
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on Armistice Day and trams and buildings on fire and cars being set on fire and no one's being
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arrested for it. Actually, it seems as if they're being pat on the back for it, and then I saw
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yesterday you have a journalist, Tommy Robinson, who was arrested at an anti-Semitism rally in
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downtown London, and it just seems like these antics, I think is the best word for it, are happening
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all over across the U.S., of course, especially in big cities like Portland and Seattle and San
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Francisco and Chicago and Detroit. And so I kind of wanted to get your take on what's the common
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theme here, and why does this not only continue to happen, but it seems as if it's getting worse?
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Well, the common theme, I think, is, well, first of all, Riley, thanks for having me on your
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great podcast. I appreciate it. But the common theme, I think, is that people are wrestling with
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what free speech actually means and how to police free speech, and what is the difference between free
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speech and hate speech? Take, for example, the pro-Palestinian marches in London. In this country,
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Hamas is a prescribed terror organization. Therefore, it is illegal to publicly support them
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in the streets, and many people would agree with that. They would say, look, this is a terror group.
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If you're out there promoting terrorism, that's not free speech. That is advocating and actively
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promoting hate speech. And so people can be arrested for that. But what do you do, for example,
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if there's 150,000 people, as there have been on some of these marches, and they have a banner
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saying, from the river to the sea? Some people, many people on the Jewish side, Israeli side, would
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say that means the eradication of Israel. Others on the Palestinian side, that's not what it means at
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all. And you've seen, actually, United States members of Congress actually saying that's not what
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it means. So when there is a debate about the meaning of slogans and so on, how do you determine what
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is free speech and what is hate speech? Quite complex issues. But what has definitely been
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noticeable to me is that you see someone like Tommy Robinson, I have no truck with him. I think
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he's a pretty loathsome individual. But he's allowed to protest in the street. From what I could see
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yesterday, he wasn't wanted at the anti-Semitism march. But he's perfectly entitled to be there in
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a free democratic country. And I'm not sure from what I've seen, what he was doing that justified the
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very heavy handed police reaction. And then it comes down to, well, if he's going to be arrested
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just for being at a march like that, and he was saying he was there to support the anti-Semitism
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march, then what about those on the pro-Palestinian side? Why is there a double standard and hypocrisy?
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And I think it's that that you're seeing around the world, America, the UK, Ireland and others,
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it's almost like there's a two tier system for how you police, whether it's a Black Lives Matter
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march or a pro-Palestinian march, or a far right march or whatever. And I think there has to be
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some consistency. And I think that's what people are crying out for.
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No doubt. I would certainly agree that we're lacking consistency across the board, especially
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within our leadership. But it's an interesting point you bring up about hate speech versus free
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speech. Who defines hate speech? Is that something that's left up to our government? This is a genuine
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question. Well, it's a very difficult question. And in fact, it depends what country you're in,
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right? I mean, America has some of the strongest free speech defences in the world under the First
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Amendment. You know, I actually had a good experience of that when there was a petition to have me deported
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because of my views about gun control. And in the end, it was on a White House petition. And Barack
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Obama, who was president, issued a statement saying I was allowed to have my views under the First
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Amendment. And so I was saved for the American people who didn't seem overly pleased about that
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decision. But I was quite pleased about it. It meant I got to stay in the country. But it was an
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interesting moment for me of realising just how strong the First Amendment is. And it goes a lot
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further, the First Amendment. I mean, you probably could, as I think has been pointed out by people in
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the last few weeks, you could walk around having a Nazi rally in America if you wanted to, without
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actually breaking the law. You couldn't do that in Germany. And you couldn't do that in the UK,
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or many other parts of Europe. So there are different rules about the governance of free
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speech. And that is one of the problems, particularly in a world where social media
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amplifies all these scenes around the world in seconds. So everyone can see the kind of different
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ways that these things get policed. You know, to me, I think it's quite straightforward. If you are
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promoting violence or terrorism, then you've crossed the line from free speech, which I defend
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passionately, and you stray right into hate speech. And hate speech, to me, should never be tolerated if
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it promotes the violence of minority groups in particular. Of course. You mentioned that we are
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very fortunate here in the US to have the freedoms and the rights that we have. Outsider looking in,
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against someone who is in Europe, we have a lot of people here who think they are oppressed,
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who believe that they don't have the rights that we've been so fortunately blessed with through our
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constitution. What do you think about that? I mean, are we here in the US, do we see this act of
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discrimination that's constantly being touted by minority groups? Is that a realistic thought for
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people to be thinking? Well, I think there are some people who would certainly feel that and may
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have legitimate reasons to feel it. But is America an oppressive country, which treats people very
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differently? I'm not convinced that it is. I've lived and worked in America for over 20 years. And it's one
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of the most multicultural, diverse. And I've got to say, as someone described as an alien on my visa,
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I'm known as an alien, which is a lovely phrase, makes me think I'm in Star Wars or something.
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But as an alien, I can only say I've always been very welcomed in America. Notwithstanding,
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I've often taken quite polarizing political views and opinions which have rubbed up the wrong way
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with half of the country. So I like that about America. I don't see America as an oppressive
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nation. If you really want to know what an oppressive nation is, go to Russia, go to China,
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go to North Korea. These are repressive and oppressive nations. And I think sometimes one of the biggest
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problems with America is I think only 30% of Americans to this day, maybe slightly more now,
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but it's around 30% of Americans have passports and ever leave the country. They never actually see
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another world. And I think that would enlighten them about what real repression and oppression
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looks like. I also think, and this is selfish because it's my, one of my bugbears about America,
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a country I love with people that I love, but I've never understood the gun violence culture
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and the culture of not wanting to do anything about it. I always think if more Americans came
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to countries like the UK, which have lots of our own problems, by the way, but if came here and
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realized that nobody has any guns, it's quite a nice feeling not to have to get out of bed in the
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morning and think, well, I'll be shot today when I go to school, when I go to work, or when I'll go to
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my church, whatever it may be. So I, and I think the same way about English people going to America,
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a lot of things about America that we could look at and learn from. So I think that travel
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actually is one of the key ways that you learn about perspective in life. And one of the problems
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with America, and it doesn't have many that I would say are proper problems. I love the country,
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but one of the problems is 70% of Americans never leave the country. They never see another way.
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They never see another way of living. And they don't, in the case that you mentioned of
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people feeling oppressed, they don't really understand what that means.
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Yeah, no, I certainly agree with you there. Moving on to the indefensible topic of allowing
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males into women's sports. First, I just wanted to thank you for being such a strong voice,
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a strong male voice in this battle. And of course, the broader war on women. You've been talking about
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this for years now. And granted, I was young when kind of all this was thrusted onto me,
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but this is never something that I saw as a threat to women and our rights and our opportunities.
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But you and Representative Katie Porter, who is of course a Democrat representative from California,
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you both were on real time with Bill Maher a few months back and the topic of women's sports
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got brought up. And Representative Porter, she made it very clear that me, myself,
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I was motivated by simply one thing. And what that one thing she said I was motivated by
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is, is clicks and likes. She made it very clear that I have taken the stand for myself and for
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self-benefit, which I think is ironic considering Porter tends to be a performative politician,
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essentially calling me an attention whore, which I think is a pretty cynical projection,
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considering I've risked a pretty quiet, secure, normal life to ultimately be branded a transphobe.
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I've likely forfeited any chance to work in mainstream or corporate America as a result.
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And my message is simple. It's just keep women's sports fair. But you defended me and you said
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something to the effect that you didn't believe I was doing this for personal benefit or for personal
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reasons. You said I was doing this for every past, present and future female athlete who just wants
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a fair chance at playing sports. And so my question for you is, do you really think that that Representative
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Porter thinks this is about clicks and likes? Or do you think that's her just kind of saying this
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I thought she displayed shocking moral cowardice. She knew, as you know, and I know, and every
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right minded person knows that this is grotesquely unfair, that if you allow people who were born
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biologically male to put their hand up and say they're women and want to compete in women's sports,
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they are going to destroy women born with female biological bodies, women, right? They're just going
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to destroy them. And we're seeing it now time and again, week after week in all sports,
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whether it's sprinting in America, swimming, whether it's, you know, over here, cricket,
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whatever it may be, soccer. In every sport now, you're seeing this creeping erosion of women's
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rights to fairness and equality. I have no problem with trans people. People want to transition,
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want to identify as something that they weren't born as, fine. But what you can't do in your pursuit
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of your own rights to fairness and equality is erode the rights of women's fairness and equality
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rights. And that's what we're seeing. And it has to stop. Now, I think common sense is slowly coming
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in. You and I are going to get vindicated over time. It's been a long and lonely path for you
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in particular. I think for a young woman like you to put your head over the parapet is incredibly
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courageous. I salute you for doing it. And more women should do what you're doing. It's all right
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for people like me, men to go, hey, support and defend women's rights. Women need to understand the
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danger that this poses, in particular in sport. It is killing women's rights to fairness and equality,
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and it has to stop. Absolutely. It's almost, it would be comical. I think comical would be a good
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word if there weren't real repercussions. It's almost comical how you've seen this feminist movement.
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You think back to the 60s and the 70s when we didn't have, of course, Title IX here in the US.
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I think of that picture at the Boston Marathon. I think it was in 1967 or so. I believe it was in
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the 60s. And you have this woman, this woman who was posing as a man just because she wanted the
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opportunity to run. And she's being, this photo, it's of course a black and white photo. She's being
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drug off the course because women weren't allowed to race. And so you think of how we've, these hard
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earned rights and opportunities, how far we've come in just a short 50, 60 years. And now in the name
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of feminism and in the name of inclusivity, we are excluding women. And so it's almost ironic. It's
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almost, like I said, comical. I think it would be funny if, if, because it's like a Babylon Bee
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headline. It's like a South Park episode, but still life with women ultimately being the collateral
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damage in the process. South Park did this sketch a few years ago, but they did it. They showed what
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this would be like. The person who speaks most sense on this and who should be listened to the
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loudest is Caitlyn Jenner. Caitlyn Jenner told a story to me, actually, in an interview we did,
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where she's a very keen golfer, but obviously competed for America as a man, as Bruce Jenner,
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won the Olympic gold to Kathleen. Caitlyn is six foot three or four, extremely well built. And when she
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transitioned, she didn't want any different rights to the ones she'd had in the sporting arena,
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but a local golf club made a tee off of the ladies' tees, like 50 yards further ahead of
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biological males. And she was like, this is crazy. I'm not doing this. I'll win everything.
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So that right there is, that's, that's the issue. Should Caitlyn Jenner, who won an Olympic gold
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decathlon, decathlon for America as a, as a man, should Caitlyn be allowed to tee off 50 yards ahead
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of other biological males and right next to women with significantly smaller and weaker bodies? And
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she concluded quite rightly, that would be completely unfair, unequal and a nonsense. So she now goes back
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and tees off with biological men. And that's called common sense. She gets to play golf, but she doesn't
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get to have an unfair physical, biological advantage over women. Of course. It's, it's called common
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sense, but it's also have, it's called having a moral compass and understanding how this is harmful
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to women. You had April Hutchinson on your podcast or on your show. She's been an incredible warrior in
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this fight. She's been on this podcast. She is a power lifter. She's now been banned for two years by, by the
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Canadian power lifting union. And she actually just had, she had a shrine in this museum in Ontario. Because her
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story, you know, being an alcoholic, she recovered and power lifting really saved her life. They've now removed her
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shrine, um, from the museum as well because of the stance that she's taken. Um, so the repercussions are
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real. Like you said, you've seen them, I've seen them. Um, and it's a travesty. And so I just wanted to ask
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you, look, I know you're in Europe, uh, but you see what goes on over here. You you've lived here. What's it going
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to take to ultimately restore sanity, restore common sense, put America and of course the world back on
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the right tracks? Is it new leadership? Um, actually what it needs, it probably needs, uh, Mike Tyson to
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identify as a woman and demand to take part in women's boxing or for Usain Bolt to come out of
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retirement and say, I'm now Usain Bolt, a woman, and I want to compete in the Olympic hundred meter
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women's final and then win by 50 yards. It's probably going to take something as crazy as that to bang
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people's heads together. But I do believe slowly, but surely the work, the woke worm is turning more and
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more sports authorities around the world, including cricket just now in England. It's national cricket
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has now banned transgender athletes from competing because they know it's unfair. There was a cricketer in the
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south of England here who played against men as a biological male and averaged 17. And then she
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identified as a woman and now averaged 117. I mean, it was completely insane, uh, and was crowned the best
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player in her region. But of course, wouldn't have been anywhere near that as a man. That's ridiculous.
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And we all know it's ridiculous. So you keep shouting from the rooftops. I'll keep shouting from the rooftops,
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but we need a lot more people like you prepared to have the courage in women's sport. I mean, I actually think
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right now, every female competitor in women's sport in the world should just refuse to compete against trans
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athletes, not because they're transphobic, because they want to protect women's rights to fairness. And if they all did that
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one day, this ends. I 100% agree. And I didn't agree for the longest time. I thought women shouldn't
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have to boycott, but I've, I can proudly say I've changed my mind on that. That is what it's going to
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take. Uh, that's what we need to see. Um, and you're right. Courage is contagious. I certainly believe
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that. Uh, but so is hopelessness. And so I think if we remain hopeless, like we're seeing so many women,
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so many people do, uh, that's just as contagious as courage. And so I wanted to mention very briefly, uh, while I have
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you, I saw Katie Porter when I was in DC, uh, a few months back after, of course, I had seen the show. I saw what she
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said about me. I saw Katie Porter. Um, and we made eye contact and, you know, she, I could tell she knew who I was. And so I
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approached her and I just said to her very point blank, look, representative Porter, uh, my name is
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Riley Gaines. And I just wanted to address some of the points that you made about me, because I think
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it's disingenuous for you to say that. And I don't think it's true. She could not even look me in the
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eye. Uh, and she turned and ran from me, uh, which goes to just, I guess, show. Coward. Coward. Coward.
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For sure. Um, to say one thing on national television about me, having never met me, never
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talked to me then in real life, uh, not choosing not to talk to me, actually actively running away
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from me, I think is incredibly telling, uh, of not just representative Porter, but, uh, society as a
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whole, social media as a whole. And so again, uh, peers, I am so grateful for you and just thankful
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that you took the time to come on. Um, and again, thankful for the stances that you've taken to,
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um, shed light on these issues and shed light again on reasoning and logic and common sense.
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So thank you very much. Thanks for having me. You keep pounding. I'm right behind you.
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Not only is peers, a fierce fighter for what's right. Uh, I could also just sit and listen to
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his accent all day long. Um, and so very grateful for him for coming on the gains for girls podcast.
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Uh, I am also wearing my unit is crew neck. Everyone go to, we are unit is.com to check out
00:20:09.720
their apparel. Stop giving your money to organizations and companies that hate you.
00:20:14.940
Um, money matters where you put your money matters. Make sure it aligns with your values
00:20:19.860
and what, what matters to you. Um, make sure you check out, uh, Riley gain center.org. Uh,
00:20:26.540
this is a training program that I developed to help inspire and embolden and empower leaders
00:20:31.640
because this country certainly needs more of those. Uh, again, thank you for tuning in this
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week and we will see you on the gains for girls podcast next week.