Marshy Smith is a fierce advocate for women s sports and equality. She was a national champion in the 200-yard backstroke in 2005 and a Pac-10 champion in 2006. She has been a fierce fighter for women's sports since the days of the Leah Thomas case, when she was a member of the swim team at the University of Arizona, where she became the fastest woman in the entire country in the history of the sport.
00:00:00.540Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line, but first...
00:00:10.980There, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes.
00:00:18.000Welcome back to the Gains for Girls podcast. I hope everyone is inside and staying warm and enjoying the new year.
00:00:34.240As you can see from my window, it is snowing a ton. We got about a foot of snow here in Tennessee, which is wild.
00:00:42.560So I hope you're staying warm. Some of you may have seen the coverage this past week of the big NCAA convention.
00:00:50.560It was down in Phoenix. It's where the NCAA gathers every year for a couple days to go over guidelines and rules and regulations that they plan on implementing over the next year.
00:01:01.560And it's also where they have their NCAA Woman of the Year award ceremony.
00:01:06.560So we went this year. Of course, we did not go in support of what the NCAA is doing to women's sports.
00:01:13.560We went there with a very simple message to Charlie Baker, the president of the NCAA, and to the rest of the NCAA and their governing board.
00:01:22.560And that message is to stop discriminating against women on the basis of our sex.
00:01:28.560You might be thinking, isn't this what Title IX is supposed to do? Yes, it is.
00:01:33.560But the NCAA is violating Title IX and actually Title IX is being rewritten by the Biden administration.
00:01:40.560The people in the White House leading this country equate sex with gender identity, meaning that Title IX, the federal civil rights law, will no longer prevent discrimination on the basis of sex.
00:01:51.560It will prevent discrimination on the basis of gender identity.
00:01:55.560But of course, not if we have anything to do about it.
00:01:58.560And when I say we, I don't just mean myself and the coalition of groups present at this rally.
00:02:03.560I mean the general public. It is up to us to fight back and to push back and to say enough is enough.
00:02:10.560So my guest today, she was at this rally with me in Phoenix.
00:02:15.560She has been an incredibly fierce fighter for protecting women's sports since the, I would say the Leah Thomas issue drew a lot of national attention to what's happening to women's sports.
00:02:27.560So not only is she just an advocate for fairness and for safety and for privacy and equal opportunity for women.
00:02:34.560She was an incredible swimmer herself.
00:02:38.560She was a national champion in the 200 backstroke, meaning the fastest woman in the entire country back in 2005 and also a Pac-10 champion.
00:02:49.560I could not be more excited for our conversation with Marshy Smith.
00:02:53.560So Marshy, thank you so much for joining.
00:02:56.560But before we get into this recap of this, this rally that we partook in, I want you to kind of start by telling us a little bit about who you are.
00:03:06.560Sure. Thank you so much for having me.
00:03:10.560Um, I've done a few podcasts, but never with a friend.
00:03:48.560I got married and have two kids, a seven year old girl and a five year old boy.
00:03:54.560And I was kind of going about my life.
00:03:58.560And I saw you and a lot of, um, other swimmers and in my sport of swimming, go through what you went through, um, the entire season racing against, uh, a male swimmer.
00:04:14.560And to be honest, I was first in shock and denial and then became, um, really unraveled and rattled and devastated witnessing what you and the other swimmers were going through, particularly at a meet that I had won.
00:04:36.560So I knew the feeling of standing up on a championship podium at the NCAA championships and to see that taken away from a female athlete, it struck me to my core.
00:04:48.560Um, and I've been advocating for not only swimmers, but women's sports since I actually connected to Kim Jones, who's the mother of an Ivy league swimmer through you and your help.
00:05:01.560Um, and we launched, um, a nonprofit nonpartisan organization icons or the independent council on women's sports to help advocate for women and girls.
00:05:13.560Because what I found and what was so tragic was that women's organizations that were meant to support women and girls had abandoned us.
00:05:26.560The women's sports foundation with Billie Jean King, um, um, the ACLU national women's law center, even Nike and Adidas.
00:05:35.920And so we needed a place for female athletes to have a voice.
00:05:40.400And that was really the birth of icons.
00:05:44.360You talk about these groups who, like you said, were created to protect and uphold the rights of women, uh, but now are actively doing the exact opposite.
00:05:55.520And they're actually the ones leading the charge and taking away the rights for women.
00:06:01.300Of course, the rights to equal opportunity, but also the rights to privacy and safety, the list goes on.
00:06:07.540Uh, and I think it's really powerful how you mentioned, you know, knowing the feeling of standing atop the podium, winning a national championship, a national title, being the fastest woman swimmer in the entire country.
00:06:20.420Uh, but of course you also know the feeling of, you know, the work that it takes to get to that point.
00:06:27.480You spend working and working and chipping away, uh, to get that feeling.
00:06:32.000But that feeling is what makes all of the work worth it.
00:06:36.040Uh, but let's, let's talk about the rally.
00:06:38.340Um, we actually did a very similar rally last year, which I think was widely successful, especially in garnering public attention and putting a lot of pressure on the NCAA and the NCAA president at the time, who's now stepped down, uh, Mark Emmert.
00:06:54.140But at large, our demands were virtually ignored by the NCAA.
00:07:00.400Uh, so of course, nonetheless, we showed up again this year in Phoenix.
00:07:06.100And I think one of the amazing things about this rally is the coalition of groups who were there.
00:07:13.680Um, we have groups like your group, your, your organization, Icons.
00:07:18.360We had Independent Women's Forum, Alliance Defending Freedom, Concerned Women for America, uh, Women's Liberation Front.
00:07:24.740We have Women's Sports Policy Working Group, uh, Champion Women, Women's Declar, or yeah, Women's Declaration International, International Consortium on Female Sports.
00:07:34.040I mean, the list goes on of all these women groups who were there.
00:07:37.400Um, but the amazing thing is these are groups that fall all along the political spectrum.
00:07:42.400Uh, some of these are, are pretty liberal and left-leaning groups.
00:07:46.080And of course, uh, some are right-leaning and conservative groups, but, and everything in between.
00:07:51.100Uh, but I think this is powerful and it shows how ultimately this is an issue that I think we can all unite over.
00:07:57.880Um, so anyways, what exactly, I want you to kind of give us your insight as to what we were there to do.
00:08:07.000Like you said, this is a continuation of last year's rally, which also made international headlines.
00:08:13.880It, it, it made waves because these coalition of women's organizations really are sending a strong message to the NCAA and people who should be held accountable to women and girls.
00:08:29.680When we are facing injustice and our rights are not being upheld, you know, Title IX always is talked about in situations like this,
00:08:41.080where, um, where, um, this enormous, uh, association, the NCAA in charge of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of, of athletes, half of which are women,
00:08:55.800are completely abandoning the rights to fair competition and respect, um, equal treatment.
00:09:04.020And so these, this coalition of women, which really represent the general public in understanding and recognizing that girls deserve fair sport and our own privacy and safety in locker rooms.
00:09:19.620I mean, it was a great, um, I mean, it was a great, um, coming together because this is not a partisan issue.
00:09:26.000The general population, regardless of party, recognizes the rights of women and girls in sports.
00:09:33.140And so it was a great representation, but we were basically having to bang down the doors from the outside to demand a seat at the table at the NCAA when they're determining rules that affect us.
00:09:47.520They affected you. They're going to affect my daughter, who's just starting her swimming and tennis career now.
00:09:55.720And I want her to have the same opportunities that I did, not only to be a champion, but to acquire a collegiate scholarship that changed my life.
00:10:06.120You know, I was the first college graduate in my family.
00:10:09.840I'm the oldest of four and I paved the way for my brother and sister to attend the University of Arizona.
00:10:15.840Also, my brother became captain of the men's team, you know, so this is a legacy for families.
00:10:22.520And so it's absolutely crucial for women like me, who now we've stepped outside of our athletic career, but now it's about our next generation.
00:10:33.840And this group of women were there so powerfully standing on stage and basically doing this.
00:10:40.560We're giving our testimony about how sports really uplifted us and set us on the path to success, not only in sports, but in life.
00:10:51.820And we just want that for this generation and the next.
00:11:14.920I mean, you know firsthand about that.
00:11:16.860So I'm curious to hear your experience there, too, and what you went through.
00:11:24.740Yeah, well, it was cool because we of course, this big group was there.
00:11:29.020We walked over to right outside the convention center.
00:11:32.500We let President Charlie Baker know we were coming.
00:11:35.220He knew the night before corresponding back and forth.
00:11:37.920He was trying to decide if he wanted to be present to accept what we were going to give him, which was a petition, a very large binder with over 70,000 signatures, over 500 Olympians and Paralympians who signed on to this petition, basically just asking the NCAA to do the right thing and stop discriminating against women on the basis of our sex.
00:12:01.080And then we also had a demand letter, basically, again, demanding they do just that.
00:12:09.520We were there to help them, this group.
00:12:11.800We were there to provide insight as to why this matters, as to how women who have been impacted by this, how we're being affected, what this looks like in the future.
00:12:53.900But we were able to sit outside for a while, talk to athletic directors and presidents and chancellors and student athletes as they walked in and out of the convention hall, to which I would say 90% of them stopped or gave us a wink or a thumbs up and said, you know, keep going, keep doing what you're doing.
00:13:12.240Don't put me on camera, but you keep going kind of thing.
00:13:15.460But what is so cool about this conference, their annual conference, is this is the conference each year where the NCAA announces their NCAA Woman of the Year, which is the most prestigious honor for collegiate female athletes.
00:13:31.780Because it's something that encompasses, of course, your athletic achievement, but also your academic success and your dedication and commitment to community service and your leadership skills and really just showcases a well-rounded person and athlete and student.
00:13:47.700And so last year, each university, of course, they get one person to nominate across all of their sports teams.
00:13:56.280But last year at University of Kentucky, they chose me to be their nominee, which I was like so humbled by at the time, because we had a national championship volleyball team, a national championship rifle team.
00:14:07.180We have Abby Steiner in track and field who's breaking world records.
00:14:10.860We have Ryan Howard, who's the number one WNBA draft pick.
00:14:15.560So I was so humbled by this until a full list of nominees for NCAA Woman of the Year came out.
00:14:24.860And of course, this award was not exclusive to just women because Leah Thomas, again, formerly Will Thomas, who swam three years on the men's team at University of Pennsylvania,
00:14:37.920he was the NCAA Woman of the Year nominee that University of Pennsylvania chose and that the NCAA approved.
00:14:44.640So immediately, of course, this award was devalued and meaningless to me.
00:14:49.260But when we were there in Phoenix, they had their big conference where they were going to award this year's NCAA Woman of the Year.
00:15:08.600And as soon as I tried to get in, two people stopped me at the door and they said, you're not allowed into this reception or award ceremony, to which I pushed back.
00:15:30.860You know, I'm there to support these girls.
00:15:32.620And I continue to ask, OK, why am I not allowed?
00:15:36.120You've got to give me a better reason than this.
00:15:38.320They said, we can't promise that you're not going to to participate in some sort of demonstration inside.
00:15:44.520And they held me for about 15 minutes, ended up having to go on some phone calls and check and figure out if I could go in to which ultimately, you know, I told them, if you don't let me in, this will be a bad look for you.
00:15:58.320And for what you really think about women supporting who support other women, ultimately, they let me inside.
00:16:06.220But I mean, what are they so afraid of?
00:16:41.120The top of the top of the NCAA is telling them what ideologically they believe.
00:16:48.420And so there is a very real concern about your career.
00:16:53.980You know, you want to advance a lot of these administrators want to become ADs and move up the chain, become a power five, employed by a power five school.
00:17:03.940And so that is a real possibility I know is going through many of their minds because over the years, I've talked to many ADs, some with you, who they do tell us that they're afraid, just not me, anybody else, but not me.
00:17:20.400But really, the message that I want to tell everyone, any chance I get is there is power in numbers and people stand with us.
00:17:31.900All sorts of people stand with us, men and women across generations.
00:17:36.580They recognize that girls and women are being treated unfairly and that this is not acceptable.
00:17:45.380So just have the courage to stand up behind Riley.
00:17:51.360In one way, it's silly to me because I know you and you're such a fun and wonderful person that it's like, who could be scared of this woman?
00:17:58.860But the impact that you've had and the influence in your voice is so powerful.
00:18:07.700And we may not all be able to be a Riley Gaines, but I was a mom at home potty training.
00:18:14.780Who am I to be on this podcast talking about this?
00:18:18.260You know, I swam a long time ago, but I just had had enough.
00:18:40.320It was for a NACTA conference, which is the Athletic Directors Association Conference, similar to the NCAA convention.
00:18:47.580And just me put money down on a booth inside of their meeting, you know, just through my personal email, because I thought if I alone am standing on a square carpet inside of their meeting, at least I can talk to them directly.
00:19:04.020You know, I'll just write something on a piece of paper like defend women and hand it to them alone by myself.
00:19:09.580And what I found, this is, you know, shortly after meeting you, when I said, Riley, this is what I did.
00:19:22.820And the more and more people that I met and wanted to do something about it, they were willing to stand there.
00:19:29.560So what happened, just in a matter of months, we showed up to their meeting, and it was you and I and Mary T. Maher, who, if you're not a swimmer, she is basically the GOAT of swimming.
00:19:54.060And Lacey Neumeyer, who was a teammate of mine, NCAA Woman of the Year, you know, the best female representative of all of the NCAA, she was there.
00:20:05.020Annie Grievers, another World University Games gold medalist.
00:20:10.100Jerry Chanteau, who was one of the first swimmers.
00:20:12.900So we had this group of swimmers and ex-swimmers who were out there because we just felt like we had to do something.
00:20:21.800And what I want to say to people is, like, you are powerful.
00:20:26.760The powerless feeling that I felt crumpled on the floor watching your meet is something that was fleeting because I decided that we're going to do something about this.
00:20:41.880And I would just like to say for so many people, and I know that you get this all the time, too, asking, how do I help?
00:21:17.100And if we didn't turn one person's opinion on the opposition, if we didn't turn one person, we would win if everyone else would say something.
00:21:27.820So, I just want to give, especially the young ladies out there listening, that piece of advice.
00:22:13.100Just please use your voice and speak up.
00:22:15.800Men, I think men, you know, see this issue as one that does only affect women.
00:22:21.420Because we don't see, at the same scale, we don't see women infiltrating into men's sports or men's bathrooms or men's prisons or really any space designated for men.
00:22:32.640Even if you think about the language that we use, we're not demanding.
00:22:37.140Females aren't entering into men's space and demanding the language that they use.
00:22:40.620We see this, on a larger scale, more adversely affecting women.
00:23:14.400You may not have ever heard of disc golf.
00:23:16.460But these are the front lines of legal battles and lawsuits going on in sports right now that are affecting men.
00:23:23.100So these trans-identified males are suing in lawsuits against organizations that are defending women's sports and threatening to bankrupt these organizations.
00:23:36.720And so in the case of disc golf, they had to fold and say, okay, you know, after the threats of losing all of our money in these legal fights, we will just allow men to compete and win tens of thousands of dollars in the Women's Professional League.
00:23:58.200In USA Powerlifting, there was a lawsuit in Minnesota where a male athlete, again, sued the organization for banning male participants in women's weight powerlifting.
00:24:13.900And the judge said, you will bend to our rules and allow him to compete or you're not allowed to do business in the entire state.
00:24:23.780And so all male powerlifters, men and women, have now been shut out of the sport completely in the whole state of Minnesota because USA Powerlifting is standing its ground.
00:24:36.760So we're facing a situation now where men and women, depending on what state you live in, have access to certain sports.
00:24:45.800And this is coming for every sport now.
00:24:49.400So that may not affect you in disc golf, but they're setting the path.
00:24:54.740And if we don't correct this immediately, then it's going to mainstream sports.
00:24:59.620It's going to coming to swimming and track and field and football and all sorts of other more male-dominated sports.
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00:25:45.100Yeah, and that's how this starts on any cultural issue, especially.
00:25:51.720It starts in these little niche groups or in places where it doesn't get a huge outburst of response right away.
00:25:58.740But it's certainly, it's only a matter of time, right, before there's a man playing for the WNBA.
00:26:16.280So, I've been on a few of their webinars that announce updates occasionally, and there's been some change initially right after the Leah Thomas debacle because it had such a huge spotlight.
00:26:34.360They really doubled down on discriminating against women, tried to explain themselves, offsetting any responsibility to national governing bodies.
00:26:47.220So, in swimming, USA Swimming oversees all the club sports.
00:26:51.920And so, what the NCAA tried to say was, oh, well, we're just following USA Swimming.
00:26:58.340We're just following FINA, which is World Aquatics.
00:27:01.780It's the people on top of us that are making these rules.
00:27:05.960So, we're just having to kind of follow through with them.
00:27:10.700And then over time, when now we see trends of international governing bodies like World Athletics, World Aquatics, FINA, UCI Cycling, World Boxing, World Rugby,
00:27:25.520there is a trend, and it's all moving to stricter and stricter guidelines in defense of women's sports.
00:27:33.060They're caught up on this 12-year-old, if you haven't transitioned by 12, thing, which it's not going far enough.
00:27:41.740But the trend is clear that it's getting stricter and stricter and banning more and more male athletes from the sport.
00:27:48.100And so, the message from the NCAA has changed a bit over time.
00:27:54.600Now, they're saying, well, if a governing body that we look to for guidance doesn't align with our quote-unquote values,
00:28:04.880and those values are allowing men in women's sports, then we can choose not to follow their guidelines.
00:29:02.860We need to have more rallies, bigger rallies, and have a seat at the table, definitely.
00:29:07.620Well, even this year, recently, we saw a soon-to-be Big Ten school, University of Washington, give a scholarship to a male athlete for volleyball.
00:29:20.040So, in cycling, diving, I mean, all the sports you mentioned, plus some, we're seeing this happen.
00:29:25.620And so, the people who say, you know, this isn't really an issue, or this only affects such a small percentage of people, or this isn't happening in the NCAA, you have been misled.
00:29:37.760It's incredibly underreported for a variety of reasons, one of which being people are scared, and two, the media doesn't want to touch it.
00:29:46.680So, to believe that is to believe a lie.
00:29:50.500And so, to just wrap up here, as an incredible, accomplished athlete yourself, and now as a mom to a young daughter, what is your message to NCAA President Charlie Baker?
00:30:03.740I would say that you have a responsibility, not just to your male athletes, not just to the bread and butter athletes who pay your salary.
00:30:20.640You have a responsibility to 50% or more of your athletes, female athletes, that deserve absolute respect, fair treatment, and fair competition.
00:30:36.000And for you to make excuses as to why you're afraid of O'Reilly Gaines, or to talk to us, bring us to the table, you need to hear firsthand how this affects not only athletes who go through it like yourself,
00:30:51.180but how the ripples really affect even moms like myself, far removed from the sport, how it affects the pioneers in the 70s who had to fight tooth and nail to get Title IX passed.
00:31:07.700I mean, these women are the women that we have to really stand on the shoulders of to gain the awards and recognition that was afforded to me.
00:31:20.120It's something that I'm not willing to take for granted, and I just want to remind him of how important his female athletes are, really, to the integrity of all sports, but definitely the integrity of the NCAA.
00:31:38.300For me to say I'm an NCAA champion is one of the greatest accomplishments of my life, and it is being diminished.
00:31:46.960Like you said, when a male is awarded an NCAA Woman of the Year Award next to you, I mean, this is eroding the legacy of women's sports, and we are not going to sleep on that.
00:32:12.320So you better listen to us and call us.
00:32:19.340You're now one of the co-founders of ICONS, which you mentioned.
00:32:23.360I want you to have the opportunity to tell us about ICONS, what ICONS stands for, and what you all do.
00:32:30.800We are the Independent Council on Women's Sports, and I have co-founded it with Kim Jones, the mother of an Ivy League swimmer who had to race Leah Thomas all season.
00:32:41.600And so she was battling the fight behind the scenes with other parents and women's organizations before even my eyes were opened.
00:32:51.420But what we do is we, number one, we have a legal, an athlete legal fund where we are trying to build a war chest to fight some of these battles in court to give female athletes a place to go to where they can bring some lawsuits forward.
00:33:13.140We know that men are quick to sue whenever they are banned from women's sports, and we want to offer the same opportunities to female athletes who want to win in court because it's absolutely crucial.
00:33:26.960We are a network of past and present female athletes and their supporters who want to be a voice for women in fighting against discrimination in our sports category and for privacy in our locker rooms.
00:33:44.320We advocate by consulting with world and national governing bodies to help with policy proposals.
00:33:53.140A lot of times we have board members that say, I believe that women deserve a place in sports.
00:34:01.500I want to do the right thing, but I don't know how to advocate.
00:34:05.920I don't feel educated in speaking about this or combating somebody who has this opposition position.
00:34:16.060We have a library on our YouTube channel for parents and coaches and athletes who want to educate themselves on every angle of the topic.
00:34:25.780We did our second annual International Women's Sports Summit.
00:34:30.480You can find on our YouTube channel that had the leading minds across the world on every topic from psychology to science to biology to legal.
00:34:46.760Any facet of this topic you want to learn more about, including from yourself, you were there, from the athletes who've experienced this to just well equip yourself.
00:34:59.760A lot of it comes with the confidence in knowing you're right.
00:35:04.360We know we're right, but how do we articulate that?
00:35:10.960And so we're absolutely a resource for that.
00:35:13.780And through other media outlets, we basically shine light on what the reality of the situation is.
00:35:25.020And male athletes across different sports, we often will do Twitter threads to say,
00:35:30.840Hey, did you know in this state this athlete is competing this weekend or just took home, you know, a jujitsu gold medal in women's jujitsu and exposing the stories.
00:35:43.540And one of the reasons we rarely hear this isn't happening anymore, which when we started a couple years ago in advocating, I heard all the time is this doesn't happen.
00:35:55.920And it's so few, I rarely hear that now because your platform is so huge.
00:36:03.760We have a platform as well to share the stories because once we're speaking freely about the reality of how many women and girls are actually affected by this on a daily basis in high school, club sports, college sports,
00:36:21.460the more awake, awakened, the general public is, and the less and less teeth that argument of this doesn't, this doesn't really happen or you're crying wolf.
00:36:35.520I mean, they, they can't say that anymore.
00:36:37.640And that's largely in part to your influence and your voice being able to speak this.
00:36:44.200And for parents and athletes who come to us privately through email or Instagram or Twitter and share their personal stories so that we can share it with the world.
00:36:57.220You guys do really the best job of sharing and highlighting these stories of these male athletes intruding into women's spaces and really sharing the perspective of the female athletes and the parents.
00:37:08.260Uh, so we could not be more grateful for you and the work that you do and hopefully we don't have to go back to the NCAA convention next year, but I imagine we will.
00:37:19.260Uh, so anyways, I, I am just very grateful and I know so many others are for you and the work that icons is doing, uh, to ultimately save women's sports.
00:37:35.000I think, uh, you know, the first conversation we had on the phone, I don't know if you remember this, but, um, you told me that whatever was asked of you to save women's swimming, to save women's sports, you were willing to do.
00:37:53.220And this is before anybody knew your name.
00:37:56.500You maybe had just started talking about your own experience and that promise to me helped me to give that promise to you.
00:38:05.060And we're here, you know, almost two years later.
00:38:08.680And I can say that we've made a big impact, um, you especially, and your message is so important.
00:38:18.520Thank you so much from the bottom of our hearts that you're willing to do this on a daily basis.
00:38:23.900Um, it's so important and we just can't thank you enough.
00:38:29.100I hope you were jotting down some notes when Marshy was mentioning what we can do as individual people, because she's exactly right.
00:38:36.160Everyone has a role that's specific to them.
00:38:39.220Not everyone has to get in front of a camera, but there's something that each and every one of us can be doing to further advance protecting women's sports.
00:38:47.180But really this, this extends beyond just this issue.
00:38:50.900I would say a lot of the cultural issues where we need fighters and people willing to push back.
00:39:00.220Make sure you support organizations like icons again, independent council on women's sports,
00:39:05.580the people on the ground, doing the work.
00:39:07.760I know not everyone can be on the ground.
00:39:10.100So offering support and assistance where and when you can, whether that is giving financially or just following along through social media, uh, whatever way, it's certainly useful.
00:39:20.000And now is the time, uh, it is necessary and urgent that we have people pushing back.