Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - January 17, 2024


Fighting Back Against the NCAA with Marshi Smith

Topics
Title IX and NCAA discrimination icons rally swimmer activism
Hosted by
Riley Gaines
Mentioned
Charlie Baker Leah Thomas Danielle Smith Kim Jones Mary T. Maher Lacey Neumeyer Annie Grievers Kerry Chant Abby Stein Mark Emery Ryan Hart Will Thomas Adidas Gains Biden
When a Male Joins the Sisterhood Running for Congress and Standing Up for Girls' Sports

Episode Stats


Length

40 minutes

Words per minute

146.76

Word count

5,884

Sentence count

361

Harmful content

Misogyny

21

sentences flagged

Hate speech

4

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Marshy Smith is a fierce advocate for women s sports and equality. She was a national champion in the 200-yard backstroke in 2005 and a Pac-10 champion in 2006. She has been a fierce fighter for women's sports since the days of the Leah Thomas case, when she was a member of the swim team at the University of Arizona, where she became the fastest woman in the entire country in the history of the sport.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.540 Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line, but first...
00:00:10.980 There, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes.
00:00:18.000 Welcome back to the Gains for Girls podcast. I hope everyone is inside and staying warm and enjoying the new year.
00:00:34.240 As you can see from my window, it is snowing a ton. We got about a foot of snow here in Tennessee, which is wild.
00:00:42.560 So I hope you're staying warm. Some of you may have seen the coverage this past week of the big NCAA convention.
00:00:50.560 It was down in Phoenix. It's where the NCAA gathers every year for a couple days to go over guidelines and rules and regulations that they plan on implementing over the next year.
00:01:01.560 And it's also where they have their NCAA Woman of the Year award ceremony.
00:01:06.560 So we went this year. Of course, we did not go in support of what the NCAA is doing to women's sports.
00:01:13.560 We went there with a very simple message to Charlie Baker, the president of the NCAA, and to the rest of the NCAA and their governing board.
00:01:22.560 And that message is to stop discriminating against women on the basis of our sex.
00:01:28.560 You might be thinking, isn't this what Title IX is supposed to do? Yes, it is.
00:01:33.560 But the NCAA is violating Title IX and actually Title IX is being rewritten by the Biden administration.
00:01:40.560 The people in the White House leading this country equate sex with gender identity, meaning that Title IX, the federal civil rights law, will no longer prevent discrimination on the basis of sex.
00:01:51.560 It will prevent discrimination on the basis of gender identity.
00:01:55.560 But of course, not if we have anything to do about it.
00:01:58.560 And when I say we, I don't just mean myself and the coalition of groups present at this rally.
00:02:03.560 I mean the general public. It is up to us to fight back and to push back and to say enough is enough.
00:02:10.560 So my guest today, she was at this rally with me in Phoenix.
00:02:15.560 She has been an incredibly fierce fighter for protecting women's sports since the, I would say the Leah Thomas issue drew a lot of national attention to what's happening to women's sports.
00:02:27.560 So not only is she just an advocate for fairness and for safety and for privacy and equal opportunity for women.
00:02:34.560 She was an incredible swimmer herself.
00:02:37.560 She swam at University of Arizona.
00:02:38.560 She was a national champion in the 200 backstroke, meaning the fastest woman in the entire country back in 2005 and also a Pac-10 champion.
00:02:49.560 I could not be more excited for our conversation with Marshy Smith.
00:02:53.560 So Marshy, thank you so much for joining.
00:02:56.560 But before we get into this recap of this, this rally that we partook in, I want you to kind of start by telling us a little bit about who you are.
00:03:06.560 Sure. Thank you so much for having me.
00:03:10.560 Um, I've done a few podcasts, but never with a friend.
00:03:13.560 So this is really fun.
00:03:15.560 Um, so a little bit about me.
00:03:18.560 I was a swimmer, a captain at the University of Arizona, long time before you.
00:03:24.560 Um, I won an NCAA and Pac-10 title my junior year in 2005.
00:03:31.560 And, um, I basically have graduated and been living a quote, normal life since away from athletics, from, um, the university system.
00:03:46.560 I went into sales and marketing.
00:03:48.560 I got married and have two kids, a seven year old girl and a five year old boy.
00:03:54.560 And I was kind of going about my life.
00:03:58.560 And I saw you and a lot of, um, other swimmers and in my sport of swimming, go through what you went through, um, the entire season racing against, uh, a male swimmer.
00:04:14.560 And to be honest, I was first in shock and denial and then became, um, really unraveled and rattled and devastated witnessing what you and the other swimmers were going through, particularly at a meet that I had won.
00:04:36.560 So I knew the feeling of standing up on a championship podium at the NCAA championships and to see that taken away from a female athlete, it struck me to my core.
00:04:48.560 Um, and I've been advocating for not only swimmers, but women's sports since I actually connected to Kim Jones, who's the mother of an Ivy league swimmer through you and your help.
00:05:01.560 Um, and we launched, um, a nonprofit nonpartisan organization icons or the independent council on women's sports to help advocate for women and girls.
00:05:13.560 Because what I found and what was so tragic was that women's organizations that were meant to support women and girls had abandoned us.
00:05:26.560 The women's sports foundation with Billie Jean King, um, um, the ACLU national women's law center, even Nike and Adidas.
00:05:35.920 And so we needed a place for female athletes to have a voice. 1.00
00:05:40.400 And that was really the birth of icons.
00:05:43.780 Yeah.
00:05:44.360 You talk about these groups who, like you said, were created to protect and uphold the rights of women, uh, but now are actively doing the exact opposite.
00:05:55.520 And they're actually the ones leading the charge and taking away the rights for women. 1.00
00:06:01.300 Of course, the rights to equal opportunity, but also the rights to privacy and safety, the list goes on.
00:06:07.540 Uh, and I think it's really powerful how you mentioned, you know, knowing the feeling of standing atop the podium, winning a national championship, a national title, being the fastest woman swimmer in the entire country.
00:06:20.420 Uh, but of course you also know the feeling of, you know, the work that it takes to get to that point.
00:06:26.000 Uh, it's your whole life.
00:06:27.480 You spend working and working and chipping away, uh, to get that feeling.
00:06:32.000 But that feeling is what makes all of the work worth it.
00:06:36.040 Uh, but let's, let's talk about the rally.
00:06:38.340 Um, we actually did a very similar rally last year, which I think was widely successful, especially in garnering public attention and putting a lot of pressure on the NCAA and the NCAA president at the time, who's now stepped down, uh, Mark Emmert.
00:06:54.140 But at large, our demands were virtually ignored by the NCAA.
00:07:00.400 Uh, so of course, nonetheless, we showed up again this year in Phoenix.
00:07:04.660 Uh, we had a big rally.
00:07:06.100 And I think one of the amazing things about this rally is the coalition of groups who were there.
00:07:13.680 Um, we have groups like your group, your, your organization, Icons.
00:07:18.360 We had Independent Women's Forum, Alliance Defending Freedom, Concerned Women for America, uh, Women's Liberation Front.
00:07:24.740 We have Women's Sports Policy Working Group, uh, Champion Women, Women's Declar, or yeah, Women's Declaration International, International Consortium on Female Sports.
00:07:34.040 I mean, the list goes on of all these women groups who were there.
00:07:37.400 Um, but the amazing thing is these are groups that fall all along the political spectrum.
00:07:42.400 Uh, some of these are, are pretty liberal and left-leaning groups.
00:07:46.080 And of course, uh, some are right-leaning and conservative groups, but, and everything in between.
00:07:51.100 Uh, but I think this is powerful and it shows how ultimately this is an issue that I think we can all unite over.
00:07:57.880 Um, so anyways, what exactly, I want you to kind of give us your insight as to what we were there to do.
00:08:07.000 Like you said, this is a continuation of last year's rally, which also made international headlines.
00:08:13.880 It, it, it made waves because these coalition of women's organizations really are sending a strong message to the NCAA and people who should be held accountable to women and girls.
00:08:29.680 When we are facing injustice and our rights are not being upheld, you know, Title IX always is talked about in situations like this,
00:08:41.080 where, um, where, um, this enormous, uh, association, the NCAA in charge of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of, of athletes, half of which are women,
00:08:55.800 are completely abandoning the rights to fair competition and respect, um, equal treatment.
00:09:04.020 And so these, this coalition of women, which really represent the general public in understanding and recognizing that girls deserve fair sport and our own privacy and safety in locker rooms.
00:09:19.620 I mean, it was a great, um, I mean, it was a great, um, coming together because this is not a partisan issue.
00:09:26.000 The general population, regardless of party, recognizes the rights of women and girls in sports.
00:09:33.140 And so it was a great representation, but we were basically having to bang down the doors from the outside to demand a seat at the table at the NCAA when they're determining rules that affect us.
00:09:47.520 They affected you. They're going to affect my daughter, who's just starting her swimming and tennis career now.
00:09:55.720 And I want her to have the same opportunities that I did, not only to be a champion, but to acquire a collegiate scholarship that changed my life.
00:10:06.120 You know, I was the first college graduate in my family.
00:10:09.840 I'm the oldest of four and I paved the way for my brother and sister to attend the University of Arizona.
00:10:15.840 Also, my brother became captain of the men's team, you know, so this is a legacy for families.
00:10:22.520 And so it's absolutely crucial for women like me, who now we've stepped outside of our athletic career, but now it's about our next generation.
00:10:33.840 And this group of women were there so powerfully standing on stage and basically doing this. 1.00
00:10:40.560 We're giving our testimony about how sports really uplifted us and set us on the path to success, not only in sports, but in life.
00:10:51.820 And we just want that for this generation and the next.
00:10:55.480 It's it's it's it's so reasonable.
00:10:58.020 And yet we're having to bang down the doors.
00:11:01.520 We're having to wear hats.
00:11:02.780 So let's say women's sports are for women. 1.00
00:11:06.240 I mean, it seems silly, but at the same time, it's like the NCAA are scared to talk about us.
00:11:13.800 Talk to us.
00:11:14.920 I mean, you know firsthand about that.
00:11:16.860 So I'm curious to hear your experience there, too, and what you went through.
00:11:24.740 Yeah, well, it was cool because we of course, this big group was there.
00:11:29.020 We walked over to right outside the convention center.
00:11:32.500 We let President Charlie Baker know we were coming.
00:11:35.220 He knew the night before corresponding back and forth.
00:11:37.920 He was trying to decide if he wanted to be present to accept what we were going to give him, which was a petition, a very large binder with over 70,000 signatures, over 500 Olympians and Paralympians who signed on to this petition, basically just asking the NCAA to do the right thing and stop discriminating against women on the basis of our sex.
00:12:01.080 And then we also had a demand letter, basically, again, demanding they do just that.
00:12:09.520 We were there to help them, this group.
00:12:11.800 We were there to provide insight as to why this matters, as to how women who have been impacted by this, how we're being affected, what this looks like in the future.
00:12:23.600 We just want a seat at the table.
00:12:24.940 So we walked over there.
00:12:25.820 Of course, Charlie Baker decided ultimately he didn't want to show his face and accept this on behalf of the NCAA.
00:12:34.640 So he sent two representatives, a male and a female.
00:12:39.140 They came outside.
00:12:40.380 They met us there.
00:12:41.540 Of course, they couldn't even look us in the eye.
00:12:44.840 We told them, you know, what we're doing there, why we're here, handed them the letter and the petition.
00:12:51.000 They said, you know, we'll pass this off to President Baker.
00:12:53.300 They went inside.
00:12:53.900 But we were able to sit outside for a while, talk to athletic directors and presidents and chancellors and student athletes as they walked in and out of the convention hall, to which I would say 90% of them stopped or gave us a wink or a thumbs up and said, you know, keep going, keep doing what you're doing.
00:13:12.240 Don't put me on camera, but you keep going kind of thing.
00:13:15.460 But what is so cool about this conference, their annual conference, is this is the conference each year where the NCAA announces their NCAA Woman of the Year, which is the most prestigious honor for collegiate female athletes.
00:13:31.780 Because it's something that encompasses, of course, your athletic achievement, but also your academic success and your dedication and commitment to community service and your leadership skills and really just showcases a well-rounded person and athlete and student.
00:13:47.700 And so last year, each university, of course, they get one person to nominate across all of their sports teams.
00:13:56.280 But last year at University of Kentucky, they chose me to be their nominee, which I was like so humbled by at the time, because we had a national championship volleyball team, a national championship rifle team.
00:14:07.180 We have Abby Steiner in track and field who's breaking world records.
00:14:10.860 We have Ryan Howard, who's the number one WNBA draft pick. 0.75
00:14:14.300 And they chose me.
00:14:15.560 So I was so humbled by this until a full list of nominees for NCAA Woman of the Year came out.
00:14:24.860 And of course, this award was not exclusive to just women because Leah Thomas, again, formerly Will Thomas, who swam three years on the men's team at University of Pennsylvania,
00:14:37.920 he was the NCAA Woman of the Year nominee that University of Pennsylvania chose and that the NCAA approved.
00:14:44.640 So immediately, of course, this award was devalued and meaningless to me.
00:14:49.260 But when we were there in Phoenix, they had their big conference where they were going to award this year's NCAA Woman of the Year. 0.99
00:14:56.560 I wanted to go to this reception.
00:14:59.560 I had all my credentials in place to be allowed inside because I wanted to support these women. 0.68
00:15:06.740 So I go inside.
00:15:08.600 And as soon as I tried to get in, two people stopped me at the door and they said, you're not allowed into this reception or award ceremony, to which I pushed back.
00:15:20.080 Why?
00:15:20.620 You know, I pulled up my email.
00:15:21.680 I showed them my credentials.
00:15:22.640 And they said, no, no, we're not, you know, we're not saying that you don't have the right credentials.
00:15:26.360 We're just saying that you're not allowed.
00:15:28.020 I was mind blown by this.
00:15:30.860 You know, I'm there to support these girls. 0.93
00:15:32.620 And I continue to ask, OK, why am I not allowed?
00:15:36.120 You've got to give me a better reason than this.
00:15:38.320 They said, we can't promise that you're not going to to participate in some sort of demonstration inside.
00:15:44.520 And they held me for about 15 minutes, ended up having to go on some phone calls and check and figure out if I could go in to which ultimately, you know, I told them, if you don't let me in, this will be a bad look for you.
00:15:58.320 And for what you really think about women supporting who support other women, ultimately, they let me inside.
00:16:06.220 But I mean, what are they so afraid of?
00:16:10.700 Clearly, I'm so scary.
00:16:12.200 You know, this 23 year old girl who is asking for what seems like the bare minimum. 1.00
00:16:17.640 It seems as if they're terrified of us.
00:16:20.980 And as I said, these athletic directors, they were terrified.
00:16:24.500 You know, they agree wholeheartedly.
00:16:26.980 And they say this, they say, thank you guys for doing what you're doing.
00:16:30.520 I just can't put my name to it.
00:16:33.120 What is it you think they're so scared of?
00:16:35.880 I mean, they're their boss, right?
00:16:41.120 The top of the top of the NCAA is telling them what ideologically they believe.
00:16:48.420 And so there is a very real concern about your career.
00:16:53.980 You know, you want to advance a lot of these administrators want to become ADs and move up the chain, become a power five, employed by a power five school.
00:17:03.940 And so that is a real possibility I know is going through many of their minds because over the years, I've talked to many ADs, some with you, who they do tell us that they're afraid, just not me, anybody else, but not me.
00:17:20.400 But really, the message that I want to tell everyone, any chance I get is there is power in numbers and people stand with us.
00:17:31.900 All sorts of people stand with us, men and women across generations.
00:17:36.580 They recognize that girls and women are being treated unfairly and that this is not acceptable.
00:17:45.380 So just have the courage to stand up behind Riley.
00:17:49.580 You know, she could lead the charge. 1.00
00:17:51.360 In one way, it's silly to me because I know you and you're such a fun and wonderful person that it's like, who could be scared of this woman?
00:17:58.860 But the impact that you've had and the influence in your voice is so powerful.
00:18:07.700 And we may not all be able to be a Riley Gaines, but I was a mom at home potty training.
00:18:14.780 Who am I to be on this podcast talking about this?
00:18:18.260 You know, I swam a long time ago, but I just had had enough.
00:18:24.160 I could not sit and not do something.
00:18:28.420 And so, you know, one of the things that we kicked us off in our activism is I went on the NCAA website.
00:18:38.600 It was actually NACTA.
00:18:40.320 It was for a NACTA conference, which is the Athletic Directors Association Conference, similar to the NCAA convention.
00:18:47.580 And just me put money down on a booth inside of their meeting, you know, just through my personal email, because I thought if I alone am standing on a square carpet inside of their meeting, at least I can talk to them directly.
00:19:04.020 You know, I'll just write something on a piece of paper like defend women and hand it to them alone by myself. 1.00
00:19:09.580 And what I found, this is, you know, shortly after meeting you, when I said, Riley, this is what I did.
00:19:17.960 I got this booth.
00:19:19.040 Will you come stand in there with me?
00:19:21.120 And you said yes.
00:19:22.820 And the more and more people that I met and wanted to do something about it, they were willing to stand there.
00:19:29.560 So what happened, just in a matter of months, we showed up to their meeting, and it was you and I and Mary T. Maher, who, if you're not a swimmer, she is basically the GOAT of swimming.
00:19:46.140 She's the Katie Ledecky of her era.
00:19:49.300 She is absolutely incredible.
00:19:52.360 She was standing there with us.
00:19:54.060 And Lacey Neumeyer, who was a teammate of mine, NCAA Woman of the Year, you know, the best female representative of all of the NCAA, she was there.
00:20:05.020 Annie Grievers, another World University Games gold medalist.
00:20:10.100 Jerry Chanteau, who was one of the first swimmers.
00:20:12.900 So we had this group of swimmers and ex-swimmers who were out there because we just felt like we had to do something.
00:20:21.800 And what I want to say to people is, like, you are powerful.
00:20:26.760 The powerless feeling that I felt crumpled on the floor watching your meet is something that was fleeting because I decided that we're going to do something about this.
00:20:41.880 And I would just like to say for so many people, and I know that you get this all the time, too, asking, how do I help?
00:20:50.400 I want to do something.
00:20:52.700 Just find your network of influence.
00:20:56.260 Everybody has kids in a school or you're still involved in some sport or your children are.
00:21:02.560 Start with the coach.
00:21:04.620 Go up to the leaders of the organizations.
00:21:07.140 Write letters to the board.
00:21:08.960 Get a hold of your state representatives.
00:21:12.600 Talk to your senators.
00:21:14.100 Like, everybody has a voice.
00:21:17.100 And if we didn't turn one person's opinion on the opposition, if we didn't turn one person, we would win if everyone else would say something.
00:21:27.820 So, I just want to give, especially the young ladies out there listening, that piece of advice.
00:21:36.700 Just do something.
00:21:38.740 And, guys, we absolutely need your help.
00:21:43.600 We need it.
00:21:44.740 Dads, brothers, coaches out there.
00:21:48.520 This is not just a women's problem. 1.00
00:21:51.040 This we are seeing affect men's sport as well.
00:21:54.020 It's coming for all of our athletics and it's tearing women down first. 1.00
00:21:59.760 And so, please, let's act.
00:22:02.740 And one of the ways is to get involved with any of the organizations that were part of this rally.
00:22:10.560 We welcome you and your help.
00:22:13.100 Just please use your voice and speak up.
00:22:15.800 Men, I think men, you know, see this issue as one that does only affect women.
00:22:21.420 Because we don't see, at the same scale, we don't see women infiltrating into men's sports or men's bathrooms or men's prisons or really any space designated for men.
00:22:32.640 Even if you think about the language that we use, we're not demanding.
00:22:37.140 Females aren't entering into men's space and demanding the language that they use. 1.00
00:22:40.620 We see this, on a larger scale, more adversely affecting women.
00:22:45.220 But this, it does affect men.
00:22:48.260 And we need men.
00:22:49.900 We need strong men.
00:22:50.940 We need masculine men to help us. 1.00
00:22:53.560 This is more than just a woman's issue. 0.98
00:22:55.720 I would say this is a humanitarian issue that we're seeing.
00:23:00.120 I'm going to give you two quick examples of how this directly impacts male athletics.
00:23:09.780 Disc golf and powerlifting.
00:23:12.340 So these are small niche sports.
00:23:14.400 You may not have ever heard of disc golf.
00:23:16.460 But these are the front lines of legal battles and lawsuits going on in sports right now that are affecting men.
00:23:23.100 So these trans-identified males are suing in lawsuits against organizations that are defending women's sports and threatening to bankrupt these organizations. 0.59
00:23:36.720 And so in the case of disc golf, they had to fold and say, okay, you know, after the threats of losing all of our money in these legal fights, we will just allow men to compete and win tens of thousands of dollars in the Women's Professional League. 0.99
00:23:58.200 In USA Powerlifting, there was a lawsuit in Minnesota where a male athlete, again, sued the organization for banning male participants in women's weight powerlifting.
00:24:13.900 And the judge said, you will bend to our rules and allow him to compete or you're not allowed to do business in the entire state.
00:24:23.780 And so all male powerlifters, men and women, have now been shut out of the sport completely in the whole state of Minnesota because USA Powerlifting is standing its ground.
00:24:36.760 So we're facing a situation now where men and women, depending on what state you live in, have access to certain sports.
00:24:45.800 And this is coming for every sport now.
00:24:49.400 So that may not affect you in disc golf, but they're setting the path.
00:24:54.740 And if we don't correct this immediately, then it's going to mainstream sports.
00:24:59.620 It's going to coming to swimming and track and field and football and all sorts of other more male-dominated sports.
00:25:09.520 Absolutely.
00:25:10.360 So don't sleep on women's sports just because you think you're not affected.
00:25:15.420 We need your help now and quickly.
00:25:17.480 Okay.
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00:25:45.100 Yeah, and that's how this starts on any cultural issue, especially.
00:25:51.720 It starts in these little niche groups or in places where it doesn't get a huge outburst of response right away.
00:25:58.740 But it's certainly, it's only a matter of time, right, before there's a man playing for the WNBA. 0.99
00:26:06.600 That's how it always goes.
00:26:08.200 I guess very briefly, too, what are the NCAA's policies right now?
00:26:14.520 What are their guidelines?
00:26:16.280 So, I've been on a few of their webinars that announce updates occasionally, and there's been some change initially right after the Leah Thomas debacle because it had such a huge spotlight.
00:26:34.360 They really doubled down on discriminating against women, tried to explain themselves, offsetting any responsibility to national governing bodies. 0.69
00:26:47.220 So, in swimming, USA Swimming oversees all the club sports.
00:26:51.920 And so, what the NCAA tried to say was, oh, well, we're just following USA Swimming.
00:26:58.340 We're just following FINA, which is World Aquatics.
00:27:01.780 It's the people on top of us that are making these rules.
00:27:05.960 So, we're just having to kind of follow through with them.
00:27:10.700 And then over time, when now we see trends of international governing bodies like World Athletics, World Aquatics, FINA, UCI Cycling, World Boxing, World Rugby,
00:27:25.520 there is a trend, and it's all moving to stricter and stricter guidelines in defense of women's sports.
00:27:33.060 They're caught up on this 12-year-old, if you haven't transitioned by 12, thing, which it's not going far enough.
00:27:41.740 But the trend is clear that it's getting stricter and stricter and banning more and more male athletes from the sport.
00:27:48.100 And so, the message from the NCAA has changed a bit over time.
00:27:54.600 Now, they're saying, well, if a governing body that we look to for guidance doesn't align with our quote-unquote values,
00:28:04.880 and those values are allowing men in women's sports, then we can choose not to follow their guidelines.
00:28:12.220 And so, it's a slippery slope.
00:28:15.160 There's, you know, no real accountability, but they are dedicated and devoted to male athletes, which we've seen in the NCAA.
00:28:25.400 It's not just Leah Thomas.
00:28:27.140 There have been several track and field runners, a hurdler, a rower, a tennis player.
00:28:34.980 There's now a cheerleader, multiple swimmers even this year.
00:28:38.820 So, for people to say, oh, Leah Thomas has been banned because we saw a headline that World Aquatics banned him, it's been solved.
00:28:48.640 That is absolutely not the case at all.
00:28:52.460 In many respects, we're seeing just the prevalence grow and grow and grow exponentially.
00:29:00.660 So, it's not solved.
00:29:02.860 We need to have more rallies, bigger rallies, and have a seat at the table, definitely.
00:29:07.620 Well, even this year, recently, we saw a soon-to-be Big Ten school, University of Washington, give a scholarship to a male athlete for volleyball.
00:29:20.040 So, in cycling, diving, I mean, all the sports you mentioned, plus some, we're seeing this happen.
00:29:25.620 And so, the people who say, you know, this isn't really an issue, or this only affects such a small percentage of people, or this isn't happening in the NCAA, you have been misled.
00:29:36.300 Because it certainly is.
00:29:37.760 It's incredibly underreported for a variety of reasons, one of which being people are scared, and two, the media doesn't want to touch it.
00:29:46.680 So, to believe that is to believe a lie.
00:29:50.500 And so, to just wrap up here, as an incredible, accomplished athlete yourself, and now as a mom to a young daughter, what is your message to NCAA President Charlie Baker?
00:30:03.740 I would say that you have a responsibility, not just to your male athletes, not just to the bread and butter athletes who pay your salary.
00:30:20.640 You have a responsibility to 50% or more of your athletes, female athletes, that deserve absolute respect, fair treatment, and fair competition.
00:30:36.000 And for you to make excuses as to why you're afraid of O'Reilly Gaines, or to talk to us, bring us to the table, you need to hear firsthand how this affects not only athletes who go through it like yourself,
00:30:51.180 but how the ripples really affect even moms like myself, far removed from the sport, how it affects the pioneers in the 70s who had to fight tooth and nail to get Title IX passed.
00:31:07.700 I mean, these women are the women that we have to really stand on the shoulders of to gain the awards and recognition that was afforded to me.
00:31:20.120 It's something that I'm not willing to take for granted, and I just want to remind him of how important his female athletes are, really, to the integrity of all sports, but definitely the integrity of the NCAA.
00:31:38.300 For me to say I'm an NCAA champion is one of the greatest accomplishments of my life, and it is being diminished.
00:31:46.960 Like you said, when a male is awarded an NCAA Woman of the Year Award next to you, I mean, this is eroding the legacy of women's sports, and we are not going to sleep on that.
00:32:02.480 We're not going to back down.
00:32:04.660 That was one of the things we constantly said in Phoenix at the NCAA convention.
00:32:09.780 We will not back down.
00:32:11.280 We're not going away.
00:32:12.320 So you better listen to us and call us.
00:32:19.340 You're now one of the co-founders of ICONS, which you mentioned.
00:32:23.360 I want you to have the opportunity to tell us about ICONS, what ICONS stands for, and what you all do.
00:32:30.800 We are the Independent Council on Women's Sports, and I have co-founded it with Kim Jones, the mother of an Ivy League swimmer who had to race Leah Thomas all season.
00:32:41.600 And so she was battling the fight behind the scenes with other parents and women's organizations before even my eyes were opened.
00:32:51.420 But what we do is we, number one, we have a legal, an athlete legal fund where we are trying to build a war chest to fight some of these battles in court to give female athletes a place to go to where they can bring some lawsuits forward. 0.92
00:33:13.140 We know that men are quick to sue whenever they are banned from women's sports, and we want to offer the same opportunities to female athletes who want to win in court because it's absolutely crucial.
00:33:26.960 We are a network of past and present female athletes and their supporters who want to be a voice for women in fighting against discrimination in our sports category and for privacy in our locker rooms.
00:33:44.320 We advocate by consulting with world and national governing bodies to help with policy proposals.
00:33:53.140 A lot of times we have board members that say, I believe that women deserve a place in sports. 0.99
00:34:01.500 I want to do the right thing, but I don't know how to advocate.
00:34:05.920 I don't feel educated in speaking about this or combating somebody who has this opposition position.
00:34:12.500 So we want to be a resource to them.
00:34:16.060 We have a library on our YouTube channel for parents and coaches and athletes who want to educate themselves on every angle of the topic.
00:34:25.780 We did our second annual International Women's Sports Summit.
00:34:30.480 You can find on our YouTube channel that had the leading minds across the world on every topic from psychology to science to biology to legal.
00:34:46.760 Any facet of this topic you want to learn more about, including from yourself, you were there, from the athletes who've experienced this to just well equip yourself.
00:34:59.760 A lot of it comes with the confidence in knowing you're right.
00:35:04.360 We know we're right, but how do we articulate that?
00:35:07.240 How do we practice?
00:35:08.500 How do we learn more about the topic?
00:35:10.960 And so we're absolutely a resource for that.
00:35:13.780 And through other media outlets, we basically shine light on what the reality of the situation is.
00:35:25.020 And male athletes across different sports, we often will do Twitter threads to say,
00:35:30.840 Hey, did you know in this state this athlete is competing this weekend or just took home, you know, a jujitsu gold medal in women's jujitsu and exposing the stories.
00:35:43.540 And one of the reasons we rarely hear this isn't happening anymore, which when we started a couple years ago in advocating, I heard all the time is this doesn't happen.
00:35:55.920 And it's so few, I rarely hear that now because your platform is so huge.
00:36:03.760 We have a platform as well to share the stories because once we're speaking freely about the reality of how many women and girls are actually affected by this on a daily basis in high school, club sports, college sports,
00:36:21.460 the more awake, awakened, the general public is, and the less and less teeth that argument of this doesn't, this doesn't really happen or you're crying wolf.
00:36:35.520 I mean, they, they can't say that anymore.
00:36:37.640 And that's largely in part to your influence and your voice being able to speak this.
00:36:44.200 And for parents and athletes who come to us privately through email or Instagram or Twitter and share their personal stories so that we can share it with the world.
00:36:56.360 Absolutely.
00:36:57.220 You guys do really the best job of sharing and highlighting these stories of these male athletes intruding into women's spaces and really sharing the perspective of the female athletes and the parents.
00:37:08.260 Uh, so we could not be more grateful for you and the work that you do and hopefully we don't have to go back to the NCAA convention next year, but I imagine we will.
00:37:19.260 Uh, so anyways, I, I am just very grateful and I know so many others are for you and the work that icons is doing, uh, to ultimately save women's sports.
00:37:29.700 What a crazy concept.
00:37:31.220 Yeah, thank you so much, um, Riley.
00:37:35.000 I think, uh, you know, the first conversation we had on the phone, I don't know if you remember this, but, um, you told me that whatever was asked of you to save women's swimming, to save women's sports, you were willing to do.
00:37:53.220 And this is before anybody knew your name.
00:37:56.500 You maybe had just started talking about your own experience and that promise to me helped me to give that promise to you.
00:38:05.060 And we're here, you know, almost two years later.
00:38:08.680 And I can say that we've made a big impact, um, you especially, and your message is so important.
00:38:17.560 So thank you.
00:38:18.520 Thank you so much from the bottom of our hearts that you're willing to do this on a daily basis.
00:38:23.900 Um, it's so important and we just can't thank you enough.
00:38:29.100 I hope you were jotting down some notes when Marshy was mentioning what we can do as individual people, because she's exactly right.
00:38:36.160 Everyone has a role that's specific to them.
00:38:39.220 Not everyone has to get in front of a camera, but there's something that each and every one of us can be doing to further advance protecting women's sports.
00:38:47.180 But really this, this extends beyond just this issue.
00:38:50.900 I would say a lot of the cultural issues where we need fighters and people willing to push back.
00:38:56.580 We have a job.
00:38:57.680 Of course we do.
00:38:58.720 Uh, thanks for tuning in.
00:39:00.220 Make sure you support organizations like icons again, independent council on women's sports,
00:39:05.580 the people on the ground, doing the work.
00:39:07.760 I know not everyone can be on the ground.
00:39:10.100 So offering support and assistance where and when you can, whether that is giving financially or just following along through social media, uh, whatever way, it's certainly useful.
00:39:20.000 And now is the time, uh, it is necessary and urgent that we have people pushing back.
00:39:26.200 Thanks for tuning in.
00:39:27.260 You can follow along, uh, like subscribe anywhere where you get your podcasts.
00:39:31.780 Make sure to check it out at outkick.com and we will see you again next week.
00:39:35.580 We'll see you again next week.