Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - October 25, 2023


Finding Strength in Faith with Jonathan Isaac

Topics
peer pressure faith struggles in basketball
Hosted by
Riley Gaines
Mentioned
Jonathan Isaac George Floyd Judah Jesus Christ Ron Hepburn Bud Light Adidas Gains Knee
Holding the NCAA Accountable with Sen. Josh Hawley Fighting Back Against EventBrite & Who is Keith Olbermann？

Episode Stats


Length

23 minutes

Words per minute

195.76

Word count

4,617

Sentence count

333

Harmful content

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Jonathan Isaac joins Jemele to discuss why he decided to take a knee during the National Anthem, why he didn t wear a T-shirt with the Black Lives Matter logo, and what it looked like to be a member of a team that took a knee.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.540 Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line, but first...
00:00:10.980 There, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes.
00:00:18.040 Welcome back to the Gains for Girls podcast. Today's guest is someone who I consider a dear friend. Someone who towers over me in height. He's an NBA player playing for the Orlando Magic, and you might have guessed it by the shirt that I'm wearing. It is Jonathan Isaac.
00:00:44.100 Like I said, he really is a hero to so many. He has fearlessly and so courageously taken a stand that many of us would not take. Check out the interview with Jonathan Isaac.
00:00:57.200 Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for coming on. First and foremost, I want to mention just how much of a role model you are. Not only, of course, you're a best-selling author, you're a leader, you're a servant of God, but you're, I think, best known as an NBA player.
00:01:14.100 You play for Orlando Magic. Before we get into anything, actually, I want to ask you how your knee is doing. What's that progress look like?
00:01:22.220 Yeah, thank you so much for having me on, Riley. Knee is doing great. You know, the season's about to start here really, really soon, so super excited. Looking forward to having a great year.
00:01:30.460 Of course. Well, we will be following along. I believe I'm your biggest fan. I, myself, my senior year in college, and dealing with all the COVID stuff, there was a lot of pressure surrounding us to control really what we said, how we felt, what we did.
00:01:49.840 But everyone knows you faced that on a much bigger scale. That picture is engraved in my mind of you standing there and the rest of your teammates kneeling.
00:02:03.000 And so I want to give you the opportunity to talk about that pressure that you faced during those times and what that looked like for you.
00:02:10.600 Yeah, it's so funny talking to you about it because you know firsthand what that's like to be the only one in an instance that is thinking a certain way, moving in a certain direction that other people aren't.
00:02:24.680 And so for me, that was kind of the highlight of my early career of being in the NBA was 2020. It was after the, you know, the tragic death of George Floyd, and we were ushered into the NBA bubble, where there was just so much pressure, not even just in the bubble, but just around the world with the rise of the Black Lives Matter organization and movement.
00:02:45.740 And for me, it was simply about offering another solution. I saw the issue, I saw the problem, I saw what happened to George Floyd. And as I listened to the tone and the rhetoric of the Black Lives Matter organization and movement, I never truly felt comfortable.
00:03:01.460 Whenever I would, you know, be talking to friends or something, and I'd say, you know what, I hear what you're saying, but I believe that Jesus Christ is the answer, it would be like, oh, this isn't really the time for that.
00:03:10.420 You know, this is the time for Black Revolution. This is the time for, you know, things of that nature. And so I just never felt comfortable. And so getting into the bubble, you know, I'm faced with this moment of being with my teammates the day before I decided to stand and we're having this team only meeting. 1.00
00:03:26.220 And they're saying, look, we don't have a choice. A team already knelt the day before. We're just going to go along with it and everybody, you know, be happy.
00:03:33.560 And one of my teammates turned towards me and says, you know, what are you going to do? And I said, fellas, I'm not going to kneel and I'm not going to wear that T-shirt.
00:03:41.720 Simply because I have another solution. I don't believe that kneeling for the national anthem or wearing a T-shirt is the same thing as saying that we support Black lives.
00:03:49.300 They're not synonymous. And so I believe that the ultimate answer is that if white and Black people collectively can choose to love each other in spite of the differences, in spite of the fallouts, in spite of the sins of each other,
00:04:01.760 then we could have true change because we all fall short of God's glory. We've all done wrong. And it's easy to point the finger at somebody when their wrong is displayed.
00:04:09.900 But if ours were, you know, how would we want to be handled? And so I walked into that moment. I remember calling my pastor on the phone that night and telling him, you know, I really don't think you understand how crazy this is going to be.
00:04:23.360 I was trying to detail it to him like, you know, I'm going to be a coon. I'm going to be a stellar. I'm going to be an Uncle Tom, be all these different things. 0.61
00:04:29.740 You know, people are going to come after my character. And the reason why I decided to stay in all these different things.
00:04:34.400 I hadn't signed my NBA contract extension yet. That was up that summer. So that was something that was in the back of my mind of, you know, what could happen if I, you know, not getting another contract or not being in the NBA anymore.
00:04:46.220 That was something in the back of my mind. And he said to me, you know, Jonathan, you cannot stand for God and God not stand for you.
00:04:52.940 And that was kind of like the mic drop moment of, you know, I'm going to do this. I'm going to trust God. I know that it's not about me wanting the spotlight.
00:04:59.980 It's not about me wanting fame. It's, you know, it would be easier for me to just go along with what everybody's, you know, what everybody's doing.
00:05:05.860 It would be harder for me to take a stand, especially with my background.
00:05:09.440 And something I talk about so much in the book is my struggles with anxiety and fear growing up and how that has shaped me and how finding my identity in Christ gave me the strength to be able to stand on my own.
00:05:21.260 And so I went through with it. I stood. There was a ton of backlash and fallout.
00:05:25.440 But at the end of the day, there was so much positivity and people understanding why I did what I did and believers as well coming together and saying this is the this is the message that needs to be resounded.
00:05:35.940 It's not saying that black lives don't matter. It's not saying that what happened to George Floyd wasn't wrong.
00:05:39.880 It's saying that this is the unifying message that can actually bring people together.
00:05:43.560 And also that racism is not the only thing that plagues our society. We all fall short. We've all done things that are wrong.
00:05:49.220 And again, if we are going to throw stones at a person or an entire race, for that matter, we're throwing stones from a glass house.
00:05:56.860 No doubt about that. I think it's so admirable how you didn't just come with a problem.
00:06:03.380 You really did come with a solution. That is something that's so incredible.
00:06:07.540 And so you mentioned, you know, kind of the reaction, the positivity you received.
00:06:11.400 And what about from your teammates, from fans? Was there a lot of backlash?
00:06:15.720 Do you think this was something that prompted some negativity your way?
00:06:22.100 Yeah, absolutely. I got a ton of it. And I have I joke now, you know, people ask me all the time, you know, how do you go about dealing with the negativity?
00:06:30.300 And I'm like, I got through 2020. Like I have I have calluses.
00:06:34.340 I know what's going to happen if I say something that, you know, goes against the grain of mainstream media.
00:06:39.980 I know I know people are coming. I know I'm going to get darts, but I've kind of I've been through it.
00:06:44.420 And I'm sure you obviously know, you know, the stand that you continue to take to protect women's sports.
00:06:49.860 You know, you're going to get heat and you're just kind of used to it.
00:06:52.860 And so but I wasn't used to it in that moment. That was like my first instance of it.
00:06:57.060 And so it definitely was hard to have your position, your position mischaracterized and people, you know, try to malign you and say wrong things about why you're doing what you're doing or infer about why you're doing what you're doing.
00:07:12.280 And it was tough for me, too, because I'm on a team.
00:07:14.580 You know, there are other guys there as well who were very emotionally driven and they cared.
00:07:20.760 And that was something that I talked to my teammates about.
00:07:22.540 We had a we had a player only meeting after I stood and there were guys that were absolutely heated and hostile.
00:07:28.520 And I understood it because of, you know, what happened.
00:07:31.860 I understood it was a very polarizing situation.
00:07:35.120 The media had done their job of drumming up the emotion and getting people worked up about what was going on.
00:07:41.080 And so I was able to say, listen, I respected your decision to kneel.
00:07:45.360 And I only asked for that same respect in return. It's not about going against you or your position.
00:07:49.180 It's just about being an individual and saying this is where I stand and, you know, let the cards fall where they may.
00:07:54.600 So I've dealt with it. I've had my fair share of negativity.
00:07:57.700 And then, again, rolling into not taking the vaccine.
00:08:00.260 That was another thing where it was like I got a true taste of, you know, what people will call fake news and, you know,
00:08:06.760 the media machine working behind the scenes to push people towards believing or thinking a certain way.
00:08:12.780 No doubt. Certainly something I faced through COVID being in college.
00:08:20.580 Just like you said, it's not something you can prepare for at the time.
00:08:23.980 I think now being in the position that that we are in, at least speaking for myself, you can handle it.
00:08:30.940 You do know how it comes. But at the time, you can never possibly understand until you deal with it.
00:08:37.040 Do you feel like some of your teammates, especially, I guess, talking about COVID, acted out of convenience, did what they think was just easier,
00:08:48.680 although they knew it was wrong, it went against their gut instinct, their moral compass.
00:08:52.960 Do you think they kind of caved to this peer pressure?
00:08:57.040 I think that's a part of it. I think I think that's what that's what peer pressure does.
00:09:02.340 You know, it's I think it it goes in line with our human nature.
00:09:06.880 If you see a lot of people doing something, you don't want to be the person that that that goes against it,
00:09:11.500 even if you have real convictions as to why you shouldn't.
00:09:15.280 And so, you know, I never get into like and not saying that you are, but just even like blaming them or, hey, you should have did this.
00:09:22.240 You should have did that. I understood full well when guys were talking about, man, just get the jab.
00:09:26.620 It is what it is. They'll you know, we get to move on.
00:09:29.380 The NBA was coming out with all of these regulations. Hey, if you don't take it, you can't be with your teammates in the locker room.
00:09:34.800 You can't do this. You can't do that. I understood those were measures to pressure people into doing what they wanted them to do.
00:09:41.140 It just it was something that was so deeply ingrained in me to say, you know what?
00:09:45.880 I trust God. I felt like I had a great understanding of the science.
00:09:49.500 I had already had COVID in the past. I was speaking to doctors regularly about just the the growing science around COVID, natural immunity, all these different things.
00:09:59.380 And then just the hostility in which people were being, you know, ushered to act in when it came to the unvaccinated.
00:10:06.740 And it was just something that was completely mind boggling to me. It was like it was like, what is going on?
00:10:12.140 Like, you know, it'd be one thing if like you're in and I joke about it with my wife sometimes.
00:10:16.680 And just like, you know, once you take the vaccine, I feel like you should be comfortable and say, you know what?
00:10:21.180 I've taken the vaccine. I protected myself. If somebody else doesn't want to, then they don't have to.
00:10:25.760 But it was like, I'm protected. You know, you need to protect yourself and me and all this.
00:10:30.080 It was just it was just a lot. And so but I absolutely felt the pressure on myself.
00:10:34.980 And I know that other guys felt the pressure as well. But I also there has been a level of vindication, you know, with everything that has happened and everything that has come out.
00:10:42.940 And I've I've heard guys say, look, if they try that again, I'm not going with it because they understand they understand the science.
00:10:48.880 They understand what is happening with COVID and they won't be a part of it if it happens again.
00:10:53.660 Yeah, no, that totally makes sense.
00:10:56.440 You've mentioned your faith several times in the past few minutes, which I think is one of the most admirable things when you have an athlete with a platform, with influence, who's prominent.
00:11:09.720 It's so admirable for me, I think, for people across the country when they talk about their faith and what that means to them.
00:11:18.900 I'm getting the backlash that you get now. Is it your faith that keeps you grounded?
00:11:26.620 Speaking for myself, I know it certainly is, you know, as a Christian, we already know the outcome.
00:11:32.720 And so I understand who the audience is. We have an audience of one.
00:11:36.840 How has your faith, I guess, really shaped your leadership and your courage and the values that you hold close to your heart?
00:11:44.780 Yeah, a couple of things I talked about earlier that my progression is just an individual.
00:11:51.020 And as a man, you know, I grew up in a predominantly black community.
00:11:55.800 And when I was 10 years old, I moved to predominantly white community and I really struggled to fit in.
00:12:00.400 I really struggled to make friends. I became very self-conscious about who I was, what people said about me, what people thought about me.
00:12:07.420 And it drove me to great anxiety and just self-insecurity. And then I found basketball and I started to put everything into basketball.
00:12:13.900 I got so good at it to where I was the number one player in my state.
00:12:17.280 But I still struggled behind the scenes with this this up and down of emotions.
00:12:22.140 And if I play well, what will people say? If I don't play well, what will people say?
00:12:25.320 And it was just a continual struggle until I got to the NBA and I was still struggling with it.
00:12:30.700 Once I started to walk down the road of understanding what God says about me and who I am, my identity in him,
00:12:37.640 I was able to start attacking the lies that I was telling myself so often and that I was believing.
00:12:42.600 And I can't say that that was all on my own.
00:12:45.180 I have to credit my pastor, my church here in Orlando, Jump Ministries Global Church, Dr.
00:12:50.300 Ron Hepburn, my family, my church family, all those people have been a part of creating who you see today and sculpting and molding me.
00:12:58.660 And so my faith has been just an absolute grounding.
00:13:01.660 It's given me purpose when it comes to being in the NBA, even with the stands that I've taken.
00:13:06.360 I've come to understand that it's not just about me.
00:13:09.500 It's not just about Jonathan Isaac believing something.
00:13:11.600 It is when Jonathan Isaac made a decision to stand up, it gave other people courage to do the same and to follow suit.
00:13:18.440 And when Riley Gaines does it, when all these other people do it, people need to see it in order to believe it, in order to walk it out themselves, because it is scary.
00:13:26.720 Every single thing that I've done, I have been absolutely terrified to do it, to go through with it, because I know the backlash.
00:13:32.660 I know what's going to happen.
00:13:34.080 But I've been growing in my trust for God and saying, God, you got me.
00:13:39.860 How my pastor told me, you can't stand for God and God not stand for you.
00:13:43.360 And so I try my best to let glorifying him be my aim.
00:13:47.860 And again, not about fame, not about caring about what people say, but saying it is an audience of one.
00:13:53.380 Whatever you want me to do, I'll try my best to do it and carry it out and trust you that you're going to have my back.
00:13:58.780 And it's worked so far.
00:14:01.460 I think it's important how you mention it's not like you haven't been scared.
00:14:05.440 I think when people think of this word courage, they think of someone who's fearless.
00:14:10.280 Those are different things.
00:14:11.840 Courage doesn't mean absence of fear.
00:14:14.320 It means being scared, but still following through with it either way.
00:14:17.940 And that's certainly how I view you.
00:14:21.440 And if you notice, I'm wearing my wonderful Unitas hoodie.
00:14:27.200 I want you to talk about that.
00:14:29.060 I want you to be able to talk about what really prompted you to launch Unitas, what the name means.
00:14:37.040 Please, I think it's incredible.
00:14:38.940 This is something, and I've told you this several times, people were hungry for an alternative.
00:14:45.820 I think we reached a point, especially a few months back when we saw companies taking a stand on these cultural and political issues that didn't really make sense.
00:14:55.720 We had Bud Light, and I mean, the list goes on.
00:14:58.740 You could sit here and name company after company, Nike, Adidas, all of these athletic wear companies even.
00:15:04.040 But you did something to combat that, which is so important and which is what we need.
00:15:09.820 And when I say we, I mean the American people who are giving their monies to companies that don't represent their values accurately.
00:15:18.040 So please talk about Unitas and what it is, what it means.
00:15:22.240 Yeah, so the idea, you know, it actually goes back to the book.
00:15:26.000 And so after I decided to stand and, you know, the fallout, all that stuff happened, my pastor came over to my house and he said, you need to write a book.
00:15:36.060 And he said, people know your stand, but they don't know your story.
00:15:39.920 And that's where the whole idea for the book came about, wrote the book, Why I Stand.
00:15:44.140 You mentioned it, by the grace of God, it became a national bestseller.
00:15:48.120 But it opened my eyes to there is a need.
00:15:53.020 There is a need out there for encouragement.
00:15:55.260 There is a need out there for courage and people to be inspired and people are hungry to feel fulfilled in their purpose.
00:16:02.620 There's all these different things.
00:16:04.180 And then it led to after I stood in the bubble, I got injured.
00:16:09.200 And the sneaker company that I was with, I no longer was with them anymore after my injury.
00:16:14.180 And I went to my pastor and I told him about it.
00:16:16.300 And he said, the same way that you wrote a book, you need to create your own sneaker.
00:16:20.420 I was like, I was like, OK, I get the book thing, but I don't have no idea how to go about making a sneaker.
00:16:27.820 And so I started to go down the road.
00:16:29.780 We were going to name it the Judah one, all these different things.
00:16:32.620 And then it was like, you know, why am I only going to create this sneaker for myself?
00:16:36.340 In the same way that I saw the need as I read the Amazon reviews of the book, I'm like, oh, wow, people actually really did need this.
00:16:44.100 There is a need for an alternative.
00:16:46.800 There's a need for people to give their money to companies that truly do represent their values and care about them, not just on a dollar level.
00:16:54.860 And so we went down the road and I talked to my pastor again.
00:16:58.240 And he said, you need to name it, Unitas.
00:17:00.340 And he actually came up with the name because he was at the altar.
00:17:03.060 He was praying. And as you see the wings and the fire on your shirt, it's it's a it's kind of a memoir to the Ark of the Covenant and how the wings point into the fire, all these different things.
00:17:14.220 And he said, Unitas, God, Unitas. And he came to me and said, Unitas, Unitas.
00:17:18.300 That's the name, Unitas. And so for me, like you said, it's just about giving lovers of God, lovers of country the freedom to buy with their values.
00:17:26.140 I want them to be encouraged about the values that they hold and to have a sense of pride to say these are my values.
00:17:32.640 I know that the culture doesn't want them. I know that there are tons of people who don't agree with them, but that doesn't mean that they're not valid.
00:17:39.360 And I can respect other people's values, but I need to respect my values myself and say I'm going to stand on them and wear them on my sleeve.
00:17:45.660 And what I hope to do with Unitas is create this company that can give you stylish, high quality sportswear, leisure wear and help you wear your values in the process.
00:17:54.680 Well, I can tell you, I have the sweatpants, I have the shirt, I have multiple sweatshirts, and it is all those things.
00:18:03.360 I find myself wearing this majority of the days out of the week, not even ashamed to admit it.
00:18:10.120 So it is certainly all of those things. And I encourage everyone to go check it out.
00:18:15.200 Can we expect to see you in your Unitas shoes coming up soon?
00:18:19.760 Yes. And just to not the shameless plug, but just to help people understand where to get it, you can head to weareunitas.com and all the clothes will be there.
00:18:30.040 And this is seriously just the beginning. I have big dreams about the, you know, athleisure lane and sportswear and streetwear, all these different things that we're working on.
00:18:38.240 It's just the beginning for where we are now. And so, yes, the Judah one is a reality. 1.00
00:18:43.140 It's a shoe that I've been wearing all preseason and I'm going to wear it for this entire season.
00:18:47.320 And I'm excited about that sneaker coming. We should be launching around November 7th, between November 7th and 16th, where we're trying to figure out how to go about it.
00:18:56.180 But the shoe will launch and, you know, I hope people can be excited about that as well.
00:18:59.920 It is literally the first NBA basketball shoe with a Bible verse on the outside.
00:19:05.640 And so there are five colorways. Each colorway has a Bible verse that's tied to it.
00:19:10.540 And I'm just excited for people to check it out and get to learn about it.
00:19:13.220 That's incredible. Of course, I don't play basketball, but I want to go buy these shoes.
00:19:19.260 I cannot emphasize enough. Stop giving your money to companies that hate you and that don't want the best for you and that don't represent your values.
00:19:28.880 That is the quickest and most immediate and most effective way to make impact.
00:19:32.960 So thank you again for for taking the initiative and doing this, Jonathan.
00:19:38.900 You mentioned Bible verse. I have to ask you, what's your favorite?
00:19:43.780 Oh, my favorite Bible verse. It has been something that has.
00:19:47.880 That has just really spoken to me. It may not be something that speaks to a lot of people.
00:19:51.700 But when I talk about my background and the things that I struggle with growing up, the verse Proverbs 28 and one, it says the wicked flee when no one pursues them, but the righteous are as bold as lions.
00:20:04.000 And that has been something that I've held on to. My middle name is Judah.
00:20:07.940 So I think about Jesus and being a lion of the tribe of Judah.
00:20:11.360 The sneakers are lion inspired. So when you see them, you'll get to understand why.
00:20:15.880 And but when I think about that verse, I think about what we're called to do and what we're called to be.
00:20:20.960 And we don't have to believe the lies of the enemy that says we're weak, that says we're insignificant, that says we don't have purpose.
00:20:26.480 But the wicked flee when no one pursues them. We saw people cave to fear.
00:20:31.040 We saw people cave to media and what everybody else was doing.
00:20:34.320 But the righteous stood and were as bold as lions. And I try my best to live that out every day.
00:20:39.400 Well, I think you certainly do an amazing job of that.
00:20:42.520 So last question, do you think you could take me in the pool?
00:20:48.300 Oh, absolutely. Absolutely not. I'm a terrible swimmer.
00:20:52.040 Don't say that. You're disproving everything I'm fighting for.
00:20:55.780 No, I'm just I'm supposed to say I could murder you in the pool.
00:20:59.960 I would say I am a I'm a decent swimmer.
00:21:04.780 Like I can I can get from point A to point B.
00:21:08.040 I can tread water, all that stuff. But in terms of swimming, I go nowhere.
00:21:12.520 Well, we'll have to race sometime soon. I'll even come down.
00:21:16.220 I'll even come down to Orlando for it.
00:21:19.180 I just appreciate you so much.
00:21:21.820 Again, the stands stands plural that you've taken, that you continue to take, how you continue to be a servant of the Lord and truly a role model.
00:21:32.480 I think we live in a society and a culture where we don't have that many heroes.
00:21:36.800 We don't have that many people we can truly look up to.
00:21:40.540 But I certainly believe that you are one of those people.
00:21:43.980 And so thank you for jumping on.
00:21:46.400 We are all going to be following along in the following weeks as you your season starts.
00:21:51.240 Again, I am one of your biggest fans.
00:21:54.240 So thank you, Jonathan.
00:21:55.760 I appreciate you, Riley.
00:21:56.860 And likewise, listen, Unitas is behind you in your continued fight to protect women's sports.
00:22:01.960 And so continue to do what you're doing and do it in love.
00:22:04.540 And and hopefully we get to a place where it all makes sense.
00:22:07.320 It's rare to see people who, one, are willing to take a stand that goes against the grain and two, who stand so unapologetically in their faith, which is why Jonathan Isaac should be a role model to all of us.
00:22:22.680 Young, old boy, girl, if you play sports, if you don't play sports, he truly is one of the most admirable people I've ever gotten the pleasure to to meet and know.
00:22:34.280 Thanks for listening.
00:22:35.140 You can check out the podcast anywhere where you get your podcast, Spotify, Apple, Outkick.com.
00:22:41.240 Make sure you check out the Riley Gaines Center.
00:22:43.320 You can go to www.rileygainescenter.org to check out some of the work that I'm doing.
00:22:49.960 Lots of fun stuff planned this week, speaking at Harvard tomorrow.
00:22:54.100 So make sure you go to RileyGainesCenter.org to check it out.
00:22:57.240 Thanks, and we will see you next week.
00:23:05.140 I'll see you next week.