Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - Former NCAA Attorney Speaks Out

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00:00:25.280 Welcome back to the Games for Girls podcast.

00:00:27.860 Super glad you guys are here.

00:00:30.000 Of course, we have had athletes on the podcast.

00:00:32.620 We have had parents on.

00:00:34.000 I encourage you to go watch the episode with Kim Jones to hear from the perspective of a mom

00:00:38.580 of an athlete who has been impacted by the movement of allowing men into women's sports.

00:00:44.300 We have had coaches on.

00:00:45.500 A few weeks ago, we had Dave and Judy Brown, coaches out in Oregon,

00:00:48.420 who bravely and courageously took a stand and resigned their coaching position

00:00:53.060 after being forced to participate in the farce.

00:00:55.860 But a piece we have been missing is someone actually involved in the NCAA,

00:01:02.280 someone who was willing to stand up to the seemingly undefeatable NCAA.

00:01:08.100 Today's guest is Bill Bach.

00:01:10.200 He was an NCAA official.

00:01:12.160 His story is pretty incredible.

00:01:14.900 He's actually an experienced litigator.

00:01:17.900 He has substantial experience with sports law and sports during drug testing.

00:01:23.880 He was actually the general counsel of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency for 13 years.

00:01:29.400 He's represented clients in high-profile investigations and litigation, including Lance Armstrong.

00:01:34.280 So his expertise and knowledge in the fact of testosterone and how it affects the body,

00:01:41.160 performance-enhancing drugs more broadly, is a valuable one.

00:01:45.460 His story and how he has now left the NCAA is even more important.

00:01:49.720 Make sure you check out the interview here with Bill Bach.

00:01:52.280 Well, Bill, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

00:01:55.740 I kind of just wanted to start by asking you about your interest in sports in general

00:02:00.780 and how you got to where you are now.

00:02:02.640 I wasn't seeing myself on the field, but always loved sport.

00:02:09.540 We always had whatever sport was in season, either in our family we were playing it or we had it on TV.

00:02:17.800 And so after I got my law degree, I looked around for how I could get involved in supporting athletes

00:02:25.460 and really loved the Olympics.

00:02:28.780 Kind of had five-ring fever, loved the whole idea of competition in the Olympics

00:02:35.380 and the motivation, the sacrifice that was made by athletes.

00:02:40.480 And so I had the opportunity to support some athletes that had an Olympic dream kind of on their journey,

00:02:48.960 help them with just navigating fundraising, navigating the rules.

00:02:54.420 And as that progressed, I'm in a city that has national governing bodies.

00:03:01.380 In addition to the NCAA, USA Track and Field is in Indianapolis and other nationally governing bodies in sport.

00:03:10.180 And so I've had a lot of opportunities over the years to help athletes.

00:03:14.340 And that eventually led to me being involved with the formation of the United States Anti-Doping Agency

00:03:20.980 and serving as USADA's general counsel for 14 years, being involved with a lot of cases and investigations

00:03:30.140 regarding the use of performance-enhancing drugs in sport.

00:03:34.740 But, you know, athletes have always, and the need for a level playing field has been a big part of my career.

00:03:44.300 Yeah, yeah.

00:03:45.620 So you got to the USADA.

00:03:47.380 Talk about some of your involvement there, particularly, I think the most interesting, at least from what I know,

00:03:57.020 is how you litigated on the Lance Armstrong case.

00:04:01.760 Yeah, absolutely.

00:04:03.080 You know, the Armstrong case was one of the larger cases that we handled.

00:04:09.880 But, you know, things kind of kicked off that USADA opened its doors in 2000.

00:04:16.740 And by late 2002, 2003, we were involved in the Bay Area Laboratory Cooperative case

00:04:26.180 that involved doping by Marion Jones and C.J. Hunter and Barry Bonds and others.

00:04:32.120 And I spent a lot of time on that case.

00:04:34.460 But the Armstrong case kind of resulted in part from an investigation of doping and cycling

00:04:42.540 that USADA was involved in for a good six-, eight-year period,

00:04:49.600 both before and after the Armstrong case.

00:04:54.620 But whistleblowers came forward, courageous athletes,

00:04:58.320 some of whom who had used performance-enhancing drugs.

00:05:01.900 We were able to sit down with and give them an opportunity to kind of redeem their experience in the sport,

00:05:11.320 to come forward and tell the truth and try and set their sport of cycling back on the right track.

00:05:17.560 And as a result of working with those athletes,

00:05:21.080 we were able to kind of break the so-called Omerita,

00:05:24.820 the conspiracy of silence that plagued cycling,

00:05:30.280 where if you stood up, you got beat back down,

00:05:34.400 or you didn't get allowed back into the sport if you talked about doping in the sport.

00:05:40.440 And so it was, you know, it took a while to convince people that that was the right,

00:05:47.160 that honesty was the best policy and that was the right course.

00:05:49.900 We had very courageous young men that had been on Lance Armstrong's cycling team,

00:05:57.080 and they knew because Lance had demonstrated it,

00:06:00.300 that there was a risk.

00:06:03.800 He was a very powerful individual in the sport,

00:06:07.260 and people lost jobs sometimes.

00:06:10.500 They lost opportunities when they got on the wrong side of him.

00:06:15.360 And so, but ultimately the truth won out,

00:06:20.940 and we had enough witnesses that eventually, you know,

00:06:27.720 the outcome was that Lance Armstrong got stripped of his seven Tour de France titles,

00:06:34.900 but that wasn't the most significant thing.

00:06:36.960 He was surrounded by an entourage of people that had been in the sport for quite a long time,

00:06:43.820 a team director and doctors that were running the doping program.

00:06:50.160 And so we were fortunate to obtain sanctions with most of his closest doping doctors

00:06:58.780 and the team director,

00:07:01.800 and make sure that those individuals were no longer in a position to continue to dope other athletes.

00:07:09.960 And then from there, you know,

00:07:14.020 we had the opportunity to assist anti-doping agencies in Europe,

00:07:19.860 in a number of countries with their cases,

00:07:22.740 because, you know, as we kept pulling the threads,

00:07:26.920 things kind of unwound,

00:07:28.980 and ultimately there were dozens of cases that went forward,

00:07:35.720 and it gave cycling an opportunity for a new start,

00:07:39.700 a fresh start, a reset.

00:07:42.340 The International Federation got a new president.

00:07:46.360 First time that there had been a contested election,

00:07:51.440 and a newcomer from outside the UCI had come in,

00:07:57.280 and a British individual by the name of Brian Cookson took over as the new head of the International Federation.

00:08:05.380 And they established what they called an independent cycling commission that received a lot of evidence

00:08:18.180 and wrote a report and kind of set cycling on a new path.

00:08:22.620 So, you know,

00:08:24.120 that was really what we hoped to see,

00:08:27.680 because we knew that Lance Armstrong didn't start doping and cycling.

00:08:32.540 He and many others profited from it,

00:08:35.860 but it had been going on for a long time.

00:08:39.440 And so it was important not just to pursue a case against Lance Armstrong,

00:08:44.140 but to pursue an effort to really try to clean up the sport

00:08:49.600 and get to the root of some of the problems in the sport.

00:08:52.360 The contrast now is almost comical.

00:08:56.340 Not too long ago, of course,

00:08:57.860 we had Lance Armstrong's case really setting the precedent,

00:09:01.680 the USADA's involvement in banning performance-enhancing drugs.

00:09:05.980 Now we have the NCAA.

00:09:07.860 When I was in college,

00:09:08.720 we weren't even allowed to drink Celsius,

00:09:10.940 the energy drink,

00:09:11.900 because they said it was a stimulant.

00:09:14.080 But their policy they had in place for 12-ish years

00:09:17.160 was merely 12 months of hormone replacement therapy,

00:09:20.460 and that was enough to mitigate the testosterone advantages

00:09:23.500 that males possessed over females

00:09:25.160 and allowed them to compete in the women's category. 1.00

00:09:28.220 So it's almost comical.

00:09:29.680 And so I just kind of wanted to ask you,

00:09:31.880 before we get into the stance that you have now taken with the NCAA

00:09:35.740 and your prior role with the NCAA,

00:09:38.780 what about eligibility has been tested for men

00:09:42.300 in comparison to women? 0.98

00:09:45.700 Is there a big contrast there?

00:09:47.220 Of course, I feel like I can see it.

00:09:48.900 But from your perspective, what do you see?

00:09:51.400 Yeah, Riley, you're absolutely right

00:09:53.740 when you look at the kind of inequity

00:09:59.020 and discordant way that doping is handled

00:10:05.800 compared to eligibility for a male and a female category.

00:10:11.640 As you say, any amount of a performance-enhancing drug,

00:10:17.760 if it's taken by an athlete, shows up in a test,

00:10:20.720 and these are the NCAA's rules, they're USADA's rules,

00:10:23.360 they're rules around the world in sport,

00:10:26.540 if the most minute quantity of prohibited substance

00:10:30.600 is found in an athlete sample,

00:10:33.020 they're found to have committed a rule violation.

00:10:36.100 So there is zero tolerance for any amount of a performance-enhancing substance

00:10:40.240 to be in an athlete sample.

00:10:42.000 Contrast that with a male in the female category 0.92

00:10:49.880 who has an enormous performance advantage.

00:10:54.060 And they have, as you said,

00:10:57.860 just a year of testosterone suppression,

00:11:00.820 which does next to nothing in terms of mitigating

00:11:06.000 the advantage of having a male body,

00:11:09.880 of having enormously higher levels of testosterone

00:11:13.780 through one's entire life,

00:11:15.280 of having a different gene structure

00:11:18.420 that creates a different anatomy,

00:11:20.680 which allows men to have greater power and strength

00:11:27.780 and speed and endurance,

00:11:29.560 to have larger hearts,

00:11:31.580 tend to be much taller.

00:11:36.120 They have enormous athletic advantages,

00:11:39.740 and we can talk about the science on that,

00:11:42.200 talk about the statistics on that,

00:11:43.800 but it's there.

00:11:47.100 And we're not enforcing a level playing field

00:11:52.940 like we do in anti-doping

00:11:54.320 when it comes to protecting the female category in sport.

00:11:58.900 And so that's discrimination against women. 1.00

00:12:02.300 That's dramatically harmful to women. 1.00

00:12:05.080 And it's contrary to the ideal of sport,

00:12:08.820 which should be fair competition.

00:12:11.080 It seems simple enough,

00:12:12.320 especially when you explain it like that.

00:12:14.580 But you eventually got involved with the NCAA.

00:12:18.240 You were part of the NCAA committee.

00:12:21.600 So did this issue,

00:12:23.540 the issue of men and women's sports,

00:12:26.200 did this ever come up as an infraction discussion?

00:12:31.440 Did you see any sort of silencing of this issue

00:12:34.460 within the NCAA?

00:12:36.380 Yeah, I joined the NCAA Division I Committee

00:12:39.720 on Infractions in 2016.

00:12:41.440 And that was really before the issue

00:12:45.780 had arisen in any way that affected sport,

00:12:51.440 kind of to our knowledge.

00:12:53.820 I never during the period of time

00:12:55.920 that up until just about a week or so ago

00:12:59.520 when I continued to be on the committee,

00:13:02.180 that issue didn't ever come before the committee.

00:13:05.340 Now, we know now that the reason it didn't come before the committee

00:13:10.520 is that the NCAA's rules have been consistently lax,

00:13:14.520 as have the rules of many other sports organizations

00:13:19.180 been very lax in terms of protecting women.

00:13:22.000 So it didn't really present as an issue in a big way,

00:13:32.880 I'd say, probably, until you experienced it

00:13:35.700 when you competed against formerly Will Thomas,

00:13:39.340 now calling themselves Leah Thomas,

00:13:43.580 started competing in the female category for Penn in 2022.

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00:14:23.500 I want you to talk about what happened a week ago or so,

00:14:27.320 because you have now become a Fox News star.

00:14:30.420 It's been super fun to watch what I've seen,

00:14:33.740 the outpouring of support for you

00:14:35.540 and the stance that you've taken.

00:14:37.940 So tell us about that stance you've taken.

00:14:39.880 I wrote a letter just about a week ago

00:14:45.900 to Charlie Baker, the president of the NCAA,

00:14:50.200 and to all the members of the NCAA Division I Committee on Infractions,

00:14:55.400 the chair, Kay Norton,

00:14:57.420 the managing director of the staff for the committee,

00:15:01.760 Matt McRook,

00:15:03.140 and just everybody that was on the committee

00:15:06.880 to express to them

00:15:10.260 that I needed to, at this point, resign in protest,

00:15:14.400 because I had,

00:15:17.640 since the Leah Thomas situation had arisen,

00:15:22.300 tried to take my time on the committee

00:15:24.900 to have a lot of conversations with people,

00:15:27.920 to learn more about the NCAA's policies,

00:15:30.840 and also to watch closely its leadership,

00:15:34.140 which transferred from Mark Emmert

00:15:38.800 to Charlie Baker about a year or so ago.

00:15:44.440 And I was very hopeful

00:15:45.340 when Mr. Baker,

00:15:47.860 the former governor of Massachusetts,

00:15:51.380 had assumed the office,

00:15:54.120 because he has a reputation for fairness

00:15:55.980 and understand that he has a daughter

00:15:58.620 that played high school sports.

00:16:01.100 So I was hoping that there'd be a fresh look at this issue,

00:16:05.600 but it became apparent and is apparent

00:16:08.980 because the rules have only been cosmetically changed,

00:16:14.080 that no change was going to happen.

00:16:17.260 And so the committee I was on

00:16:19.600 is supposed to have been about ethical sport.

00:16:23.320 And what is happening to women is unethical. 1.00

00:16:27.280 It's discriminatory.

00:16:29.760 It's, I believe,

00:16:31.180 a violation of Title IX protections for women,

00:16:35.300 but it violates the fundamental tenet of sport,

00:16:41.640 which is competitive fairness.

00:16:43.460 If you don't have competitive fairness,

00:16:45.280 you don't have true sport.

00:16:48.500 And so at that point,

00:16:51.360 I realized I needed to just make it very clear

00:16:56.060 that I couldn't continue in that role,

00:16:58.760 given their unwillingness to change those policies.

00:17:04.120 What was the response from the NCAA

00:17:07.440 or the other people,

00:17:10.440 a part of the NCAA committee you were on?

00:17:12.040 You know, the response has been,

00:17:14.420 I would say, muted at this point.

00:17:17.460 I've gotten a couple of emails,

00:17:20.420 one from a staff member on the committee

00:17:23.020 and one from a committee member,

00:17:25.380 kind of saying,

00:17:26.100 well, we'll miss you at our next meeting.

00:17:28.780 Appreciate your service.

00:17:30.320 And that's nice.

00:17:31.240 But other than that,

00:17:35.400 have not heard from anybody at the NCAA on this issue.

00:17:42.440 And those comments were not on this issue.

00:17:46.260 So that's okay.

00:17:49.800 I didn't take the step to win friends

00:17:56.760 and didn't necessarily expect

00:17:59.020 that everybody would be happy with the decision.

00:18:03.220 But women are worth standing up for. 1.00

00:18:06.580 Clean and true sport is worth standing up for.

00:18:09.940 And so that was a small way

00:18:14.000 in which I had an opportunity to do that.

00:18:16.940 And I think, you know,

00:18:18.780 we all have an opportunity

00:18:21.480 to stand up for women,

00:18:25.520 to stand up for anti-discrimination

00:18:27.100 and to protect daughters

00:18:31.920 and nieces and women

00:18:36.520 just by doing what we can

00:18:40.720 to say this is wrong.

00:18:42.460 We need to give women's opportunities to women. 1.00

00:18:47.440 Women's sports is for women.

00:18:49.260 It's not for men 1.00

00:18:50.120 and not for individuals

00:18:53.120 that have biological advantages

00:18:57.500 that can't be replicated by women. 1.00

00:18:59.360 And so we need to protect women's sport. 1.00

00:19:02.600 It's easier said than done, right?

00:19:04.120 Making those sacrifices

00:19:05.220 and taking a stand.

00:19:06.860 But it's not hard.

00:19:08.220 It's not hard to say something as simple

00:19:10.140 as men and women are different.

00:19:11.920 And each sex deserves to be protected 0.86

00:19:14.300 on the basis of our sex.

00:19:16.100 And each sex is deserving of privacy

00:19:18.080 and safety and equal opportunity.

00:19:19.820 That's not hard to say.

00:19:22.060 And so why is it you think

00:19:23.880 that whether it's the NCAA,

00:19:26.200 whether it's corporate America,

00:19:27.980 whether it's even lawyers,

00:19:30.900 I mean, our government,

00:19:32.020 why do you think people are so hesitant

00:19:33.900 to call males and women's sports out? 1.00

00:19:36.540 And really even broader than that, right?

00:19:38.580 I think a lot of these cultural issues

00:19:40.600 we're seeing,

00:19:41.440 it's kind of like the emperor

00:19:43.240 wears no clothes scenario

00:19:45.280 where a lot of us are seeing

00:19:47.860 these things happening,

00:19:49.280 but no one's willing to say it out loud.

00:19:51.620 Why do you think that is?

00:19:52.620 Well, I don't know if I know all the answers,

00:19:54.760 but I'll give you one thought

00:19:56.760 from what we were talking about earlier

00:19:59.160 in terms of cycling,

00:20:00.360 where there was a conspiracy of silence

00:20:02.660 to protect the cheating that was going on.

00:20:06.200 And it was fear that drove

00:20:09.520 that conspiracy of silence,

00:20:12.640 the so-called emerita.

00:20:14.320 And I think that fear to a large extent

00:20:17.500 is driving the policies of the NCAA,

00:20:20.480 driving the actions of university presidents

00:20:23.200 and college athletic directors

00:20:25.480 fear to stand up for truth

00:20:27.900 and what's right and to protect women.

00:20:30.880 Once we, however,

00:20:33.660 once a few people do stand up,

00:20:36.220 once people take their voice

00:20:39.540 and use it for truth

00:20:41.580 and for what's right,

00:20:43.440 change can be made.

00:20:44.720 And so it didn't take,

00:20:49.320 it took about seven or eight whistleblowers

00:20:53.740 in the Armstrong case

00:20:55.100 to bring that case forward

00:20:58.240 after years of a conspiracy of silence.

00:21:02.220 It might take a few more in this case,

00:21:05.940 but if people will stand up

00:21:09.260 and make a stand and say,

00:21:11.860 I can't condone this

00:21:14.380 or support this any longer,

00:21:16.240 I don't care what it costs,

00:21:17.880 I'm going to stand up for truth,

00:21:19.740 then I think we'll see movement

00:21:22.620 on this issue throughout our society.

00:21:26.100 And we'll return to policies

00:21:28.820 that promote women,

00:21:32.940 allow them to triumph,

00:21:34.780 and are good for our wives,

00:21:38.360 our daughters,

00:21:39.620 and our female friends.

00:21:42.200 For humanity

00:21:43.140 and for God's creation,

00:21:44.820 most importantly.

00:21:46.940 So, Bill,

00:21:48.540 you are just the greatest.

00:21:49.920 You are a part in making that change,

00:21:52.340 a part of being willing to say,

00:21:55.060 no, enough is enough.

00:21:57.100 I'm not going to participate in the farce.

00:22:00.140 And so for that,

00:22:01.220 I know I thank you.

00:22:02.600 I know my future daughter

00:22:03.780 that I hope to have one day,

00:22:05.940 she thanks you.

00:22:06.740 And of course,

00:22:08.100 so many others,

00:22:08.940 young and old,

00:22:09.840 everything in between.

00:22:11.320 We need more bold people

00:22:14.120 like yourself

00:22:15.060 to make a change.

00:22:17.840 Because like you said,

00:22:18.620 truth and sanity,

00:22:19.880 it'll always prevail.

00:22:21.320 It always does.

00:22:22.120 It's just a matter of

00:22:23.020 how long we allow the theatrics

00:22:25.600 to continue on

00:22:26.580 before truth and sanity

00:22:27.660 do prevail.

00:22:29.000 But in the meantime,

00:22:30.640 here we are.

00:22:31.580 And I'm glad and honored,

00:22:34.680 really,

00:22:34.900 to be in this fight with you.

00:22:36.380 So thank you, Bill.

00:22:37.560 Thank you, Riley.

00:22:38.700 Thank you for your leadership.

00:22:40.500 Thank you for having

00:22:41.360 a strong voice for women.

00:22:43.780 And I agree with you.

00:22:45.520 I think you'll be back

00:22:48.220 on the podium soon

00:22:51.360 as we'll be celebrating

00:22:53.720 women's opportunities

00:22:55.600 being increased

00:22:56.760 over what they are right now.

00:22:58.420 Bill is the perfect display

00:23:01.600 of a principled man

00:23:03.000 with integrity.

00:23:04.300 And we certainly need

00:23:05.660 more of those.

00:23:06.340 Our country is lacking

00:23:07.340 of those.

00:23:08.800 Thanks for tuning in today.

00:23:10.760 We are super glad you're here.

00:23:12.440 We hope to see you next time.

00:23:13.560 Make sure you like

00:23:14.380 and comment and subscribe

00:23:15.360 anywhere where you get

00:23:16.400 your podcasts.

00:23:17.520 Check us out at

00:23:18.000 outkick.com.

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00:23:41.160 it is crucial.

00:23:42.420 Of course,

00:23:42.860 we spend a lot of time

00:23:43.600 on this podcast

00:23:44.400 talking about

00:23:45.120 the impact of a lot

00:23:46.700 of these cultural issues

00:23:48.440 and how they affect women.

00:23:50.240 But I understand

00:23:50.940 our most vulnerable

00:23:51.880 are being attacked

00:23:52.800 and that's the children.

00:23:53.980 So thank you guys

00:23:54.800 and we'll see you next week.

00:23:55.740 We'll see you next week.

00:24:00.160 We'll be right back.

Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - February 21, 2024

Former NCAA Attorney Speaks Out

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