NCAA SCANDAL： Female Runner's Records Stolen by Trans Athlete ｜ Gaines For Girls w⧸ Riley Gaines
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Summary
Caroline Hill is a female athlete from the Rochester Institute of Technology who holds several records at RIT. She has just joined the Gaines v. NCAA lawsuit, using her full name, which is no easy feat even in the year 2025, when you face immense backlash for doing something as simple as saying that men and women are different and that men can t become women, and vice versa.
Transcript
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With a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms and a weighting depth of 900 millimeters,
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If you are, you are seeing that I am wearing my Title IX tee.
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We had Jen Say on the podcast a few weeks ago to talk about this collection,
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what it means, what it means to collaborate with this brand.
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The back has the entire original 37-word statute of Title IX on the back.
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But again, I hope you're watching at youtube.com slash Outkick.
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Actually, very relevant to the shirt that I am wearing today.
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This is something, of course, that we've talked about at great lengths on this podcast before.
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But we have another example of a woman being excluded in the name of inclusion.
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She has just joined the Gaines v. NCAA lawsuit using her full name, which is no easy feat.
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Even still in the year 2025, you face immense backlash for doing something as simple as saying
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that men and women are different and that men can't become women and vice versa.
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So if you don't like it, you can send it back, which, take it from me, you will not be doing
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I built my platform on speaking the truth, and that is very true, even when I am talking
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So, as I said, we're talking to a female athlete from Rochester Institute of Technology.
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She holds, well, she held several records at RIT before her coach, before the NCAA, her
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athletic director, allowed a man to switch from the men's team to run on the women's team.
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So, all of that and more, make sure you're listening.
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Well, Caroline, thank you so much for joining the Gains for Girls podcast.
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I have lots of people on this podcast, people who are, I mean, world-leading scientists and
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congressional members and really incredible people across many different realms.
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But my favorite people to talk to are just your ordinary, everyday person who has been
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impacted, not by their own choosing, but has so bravely and so courageously chosen to
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take a stand for what is right, what is righteous, what is fair, what is just.
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So, I'm just so grateful for you to be joining the podcast today.
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Can you start by just introducing yourself and sharing just a little bit about your journey
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as an athlete, a female athlete, especially at RIT, what track and field has meant to you?
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Um, I ran track all four years and was a captain.
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Um, and I started track when I was 11 years old.
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That was such a great way, um, to build confidence growing up.
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And, um, so yeah, I had some success as a young athlete and, um, it continued on through
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high school and that was sort of when I thought, oh, maybe I could do this in college.
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Um, I even, I went on to win an individual state title in the 200 meter dash.
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Um, granted it was in Vermont, so not the most competitive state.
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Still, yeah, still, you know, a great achievement in the eyes of many.
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And so, I, um, looked at some schools, looked, looked at Division I a bit, but Division III
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really felt like the right choice for me personally as an athlete.
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Um, and so I went on to improve upon my personal bests in college, um, despite the hardships
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So, um, yeah, that's kind of my track and field journey, um, if you will.
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You mentioned some hardships and you had this awesome op-ed, uh, that just came out in the
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Uh, obviously one of those hardships that, that we will get into, uh, that the nation
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has now really got to watch kind of unfold from afar.
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You got to witness that and be, uh, I mean, be personally impacted by that when a man was
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But there's another hardship you talk about in this op-ed, um, and that's being a hearing
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And I read this and I, there was a couple things that came to mind.
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Number one, obviously the challenges that you faced in both training and competing, especially
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in a sport like track and field where you're hearing, I mean, that that's monumental, especially
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like when that gun goes, when the beep goes, like your reaction time is everything.
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But the second thing that, that kind of came to my mind when I was reading this was just how
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To have a space for athletes, uh, with any sort of impairment to be able to compete and
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Uh, and to me, that's what inclusion is, right?
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Like we, we, we've seen this word, it gets thrown around all the time, whether in the
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form of DEI, obviously, uh, and what you face later on in your collegiate career, uh, what
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it means to be inclusive, but they've totally misconstrued this word to really it now means
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like exclusion, like women were excluded on the basis of their terms of inclusion.
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But to me, when I, when I read about you having these hearing impairments, that to me is what
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So can you talk about the specific challenges you faced in training and competing as an athlete
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Um, so first of all, something I always loved about sports and tracking field specifically
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for me is that I could just go compete without, um, my hearing being a factor.
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Of course, there are things such as the starting blocks, um, and then also, um, the training
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settings, just being with coaches, um, having to hear all the little nuances of instructions
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that are given during practice, or even just side conversations amongst teammates.
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Um, missing a lot of that was definitely hard, you know, just, it takes a toll.
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It can take a toll on your mental health, um, just confidence.
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And, you know, I still, it, um, had a lot of positive experiences with teammates, but, um,
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Um, I think a lot of people might not know what that's like, but having to, um, work extra
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hard to be in the know is something that, that a lot of people I think take for granted.
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But, um, yeah, so in a meet, you know, I would have to, you know, um, if, in case you're not
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familiar with how a track meet is organized, um, a lot of times the event is called and
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You have to be listening for your, your lane assignment.
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A lot of the times the officials can be very abrasive and, um, unforgiving, you know, oh,
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Um, and so it can cause some extra anxiety at a competition where being focused is so
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Um, and then the starting blocks, I had a few meets where I would be in the starting blocks.
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Um, I'm a sprinter, so that's how I would start my races and the official would say, you
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know, runners on your mark, get set and then shoot the gun.
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And there are a few times where I would miss the get set command because my head is down.
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Um, and they, the, the times where I missed the command, they wouldn't be wearing a microphone.
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So I would see the people out of the corner of my eye, I would see the other girls getting
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And, um, I had to put my head up and stand up and be like, guys, like, I wouldn't say anything,
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Um, and, you know, it's like, fine, you're allowed to do that, but it still shakes you,
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I'm sure you understand as a high level athlete, um, any little thing can really mess you up.
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So, um, there are some big meets where that happened and it was, uh, debilitating.
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So yeah, there's little things people don't consider.
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Yeah, a hundred percent listening to you talk about that, especially I think missing out
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on something as simple as conversations with teammates, whether it's, it's on the track,
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whether it's in the locker room, like those are oftentimes the places where you form the
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You're able to, to chat with each other after practice about how, how hard the set was
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or how awful your coach was or whatever it is, but you bond in those moments.
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And so, uh, listening to you say that is something that I realized I certainly took for granted
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and in knowing that really how similar the sport of swimming and track and field are,
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I can't imagine being on a block where you're right.
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You have to be like almost locked and loaded, uh, when they say, take your mark or get set.
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And then that beep goes like, especially being a sprinter every single hundredth of a second,
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Uh, so I, I can't even imagine that, um, as again, that initial hardship you had to overcome
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to ultimately receive the offers that you did, uh, and then in choosing RIT for college,
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can you now walk us through a little bit about what it was like when you first found out that
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a man was going to be joining the women's team?
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Was this a, a man who had previously competed on the men's team?
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Was this a man who, uh, I mean, started right off the bat on the women's team?
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What, what did this process look like for you all, you all, especially as women?
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There wasn't a lot of communication from coaches.
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The, the way it works for us was we, we'd have a really long preseason leading up to the
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And, um, my sophomore year, the male athlete started coming to preseason practices and it
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was disclosed that he was transitioning and hoping to compete on the women's team.
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Um, but there were some logistics that didn't allow for that.
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So I, I didn't really know what was going on there.
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I kind of just was like, oh, this is, this isn't going to be anything, you know, like I
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And then the next year, um, he came back and I still wasn't sure whether, you know, I, I
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didn't really realize how real everything was until the first meet of the indoor season
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Um, it's funny, my coach, I was supposed to run it that day too, but my coach actually
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But so I just had to watch, um, as my record just got destroyed and all these other female
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athletes also, also got destroyed in, in the race that day.
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And so I remember reacting a lot more strongly than I expected.
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Um, I had definitely been holding in a lot of emotion about it and, um, and then also
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seeing the reactions of some of my teammates, you know, being very supportive of the male
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athlete and then others coming to me and talking about it, maybe seeing that I, I was trying
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And, um, so there was a, uh, immediately from that point forward, there was such a divide
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And that was heartbreaking because we spent so much time together.
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Um, you know, it's, we're all, we all have this common goal of achieving success in track
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And so it's, it was devastating having our team be split apart like that.
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Um, and so yeah, that, that first race was definitely the moment it became really real.
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And I knew, um, the NCAA, the administration, the coaches are, don't, they don't actually
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And so it sent the message really loud and clear that day.
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I mean, again, I think anyone can understand how fairness is impacted when you allow a man
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I mean, kindergartners really seem to understand this, the difference between men and women
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What's really, really hard for someone to understand unless you've played a sport, especially at
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the level of which you and I have is that team dynamic and culture and how important that
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is to success and how that is thrown off entirely when you add an element like this, like the
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And then again, that's, that's kind of like another layer of pressure that you have to deal
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with outside of the competitive side of things is how to navigate these conversations with people
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you love, people who you want the best for, you want them to succeed.
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You imagine they want you to succeed both personally and as a team, but to have that infringed
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upon because of a decision like this, that would have allowed Shriner to, to compete on the
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Uh, and it's something that I can certainly relate to as well.
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Um, but I will say where I would imagine you had many people on your team, especially going
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So I would imagine that, um, you would have had several teammates who were at least outwardly
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But I bet you internally, uh, they knew this to be wrong just as you and I did.
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But, uh, I would imagine there were many who were fearful of, of saying this out loud.
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In your op-ed, you talk about feeling erased by the NCAA's decision, um, to allow this man
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So, and were you, you were a junior at this point, is that correct?
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It happened all the way throughout going into, of course, your senior season.
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Uh, but then at the, the end of your senior season, uh, in February, I guess of earlier
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this year, uh, the Trump administration, um, Donald Trump signed an EO and executive order,
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basically barring men from participating within any, uh, uh, women's sport, uh, that receives
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any sort of federal funding, uh, ultimately that would prevent Shriner from competing on
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The NCAA, uh, decided to, they released this policy saying that they would fall in compliance
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Because again, Shriner at this point was still competing.
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Um, still, again, what was written in the op-ed was still using the women's locker room.
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What was that like for you all, especially when you saw publicly the NCAA saying that they
00:19:21.020
Yeah, um, so everything was just hearsay amongst our team.
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There was not any kind of official message given to us by the coaches or the administration
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and knowing RIT's stance in all of this, and that it's a private university, um, I, and knowing
00:19:43.860
how things had gone for so long, I was sort of reluctant that anything would even, that I,
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I thought, oh, RIT's gonna find some way around this, you know, um, it's, having had, um, this
00:19:59.240
issue go on for so long, I, like, I kind of lost hope that things would improve a little
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bit, you know, because I didn't want to build up, oh, maybe, like, maybe he won't be on the
00:20:14.080
team, and maybe things will go back to the way they were, but I didn't want to be let
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down again, so I kind of just, like, like, you know, maybe it will work out, maybe it won't,
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um, and then, so he was making appearances at practice, um, utilizing our coaches, our facilities,
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um, and I think kind of sending a message, like, hey, I'm still here, um, and...
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Exactly, and the drama still went on, the negativity, all the things that had been going on ever since
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it started, um, and so it was definitely not as, when the rule change happened, obviously
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it was a great step in the right direction, but there, there's a lot more to it, um, especially
00:21:09.980
at RIT where everything was kind of sheltered, and, um, I don't know if controlled is the
00:21:16.400
right word, but the environment was very just different than some people might imagine, I
00:21:27.020
Yeah, it definitely sounds different than an SEC college, that's for sure, um, but, but that
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tends to be the trend, uh, especially where you have universities, um, that have coaches
00:21:41.300
or athletic directors in place that, uh, support the idea of putting, or the practice of putting
00:21:47.840
men on women's teams, um, there's not a lot of transparency, there's not a lot of communication,
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there's certainly no accountability or responsibility, it's like things are done behind closed doors
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or in secrecy, and you as a woman are expected to just go along with it, or they tell you to
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just be kind, be inclusive, his happiness is, is more important than you winning, right?
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And in talking about, uh, maybe some of those, those key bad actors and, and what you face
00:22:16.700
specifically, uh, I know that you had mentioned in one of the pieces that has come out since
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you so bravely decided to put your name and your face of this, um, that your athletic director
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said that Schreiner had less testosterone, uh, than some of you women, uh, I can't imagine
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this explanation sit very well with you because ultimately what this idea is doing is reducing
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women down to a testosterone level, uh, which is again, utter madness and, and entirely regressive
00:22:51.860
It was so, I was baffled by how limiting that statement was.
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And, you know, also the delivery was so just matter of fact, and there was not really room
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to counter, it wasn't a discussion, it was just a delivery, um, in that environment, especially
00:23:17.080
when you have a, a person in a position of power standing in front of the room, um, in front of
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And, um, yeah, it seems, it, it's baffling that all the other science behind what it means
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to be a woman, what it means to be a man was not addressed in the slightest.
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Um, it was almost like information was being withheld from the women.
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Um, and so it was very insulting and, um, diminishing to hear that.
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Um, and again, the locker room aspect, uh, just the feelings of, of being entirely mortified and
00:24:07.800
humiliated, um, the discomfort, the injustice of being in a locker room setting, uh, whether
00:24:15.060
clothed or not for that matter, this is like a vulnerable, it's a vulnerable environment.
00:24:23.400
And again, where I can think some of those conversations, even that you have in the locker
00:24:28.240
room after practice, before a competition, after a race, whatever it is, it's some of the
00:24:41.460
That's where I would go to laugh with my friends.
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Like it's such an intimate space, but to have that infringed upon by a man is just a feeling
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that again is, is pretty hard to put into words.
00:24:52.080
What, um, what finally led you to going from being anonymous on the lawsuit?
00:24:59.060
Again, the Gaines versus NCAA lawsuit, which has been in motion for, uh, over a year, just
00:25:05.040
about a year and a half at this point to now putting your name to it.
00:25:09.580
How has this shift, I guess, really impacted you personally, professionally and emotionally?
00:25:18.100
So while I was at school still competing, I did join the lawsuit anonymously.
00:25:24.100
Um, and it was definitely out of fear, you know, as much as I hate to say it, um, I wanted
00:25:32.100
to speak out and give a voice to women who were in a similar situation as me, but the environment
00:25:41.140
that I was in was in my opinion, not a safe one to do that in, um, spending every single
00:25:50.020
day with my teammates, with my coaches, um, on campus, you know, I, and it was my last
00:26:00.640
Um, you know, I, I wanted to graduate, do well in my classes, do well in my track and field
00:26:08.980
Um, and so it was a really tough decision whether or not to be anonymous, um, at first, but after
00:26:19.580
having graduated, it's, it's like, okay, I, I'm safe.
00:26:31.400
Um, but it, it is kind of ridiculous that I would even have to consider, um, silent being
00:26:38.620
silenced, um, because of the environment that I was in.
00:26:51.420
The other side that claims to be tolerant and accepting and welcoming and embracing to,
00:26:57.220
to diverse, uh, viewpoints and thoughts, it's, it's really the exact opposite.
00:27:03.820
Um, so that is something certainly that, uh, it's not even just athletes.
00:27:09.560
Like I think over the past few years, whether it's, it's COVID, whether it's people in professional,
00:27:14.860
like their career settings, whatever it is, self-censorship is so real.
00:27:20.640
Uh, and you feel like you have to suppress what you say or how you think.
00:27:24.920
And, and especially on any of the topics that are related to DEI, uh, so you don't offend.
00:27:31.560
So you're not disrespectful or all the things that we've been conditioned.
00:27:35.140
I mean, myself included, like I was certainly in that same boat as you.
00:27:40.300
I'm ashamed to say that, um, it took me finding that internal courage, uh, to, to be able to
00:27:48.780
say out loud that men and women are different, but it really does.
00:27:52.540
Uh, especially again, where, where you were, where you are now, like even in the year 2025,
00:27:58.920
uh, it is so incredibly brave to say what you are now saying to say, to put your name to
00:28:12.120
Uh, what, I mean, girls like my daughter who will be born in just a few weeks, um, what they,
00:28:19.220
the world that they will grow up in, uh, what are you hoping this legal action will achieve for us?
00:28:25.880
And again, I think more importantly for the next generation of women.
00:28:30.480
Um, I would say the biggest, so there's obviously, um, hoping to sort of, um, not that it can be
00:28:40.120
undone, but to instill some of the records that have been taken away, um, or placements at various
00:28:49.380
competitions that have been taken away from, from so many women as a result of allowing male males to
00:28:56.420
compete. Um, but ultimately, in my opinion, it's about respect.
00:29:01.740
I mean, of calling themselves champions, right? It's, it's something that is only happening one
00:29:09.380
way at this point. Uh, this issue of, of allowing, uh, people to, to self-identify themselves into
00:29:18.100
whichever category they want to, to participate in. Uh, it's only adversely and negatively impacting
00:29:25.460
women. Uh, so totally in, in regard to not being respected, not having a voice, not having a seat
00:29:32.720
at the table, even listening to you describe how there were no conversations, there were no
00:29:38.880
discussions, there were no chances for dialogue or discourse, or to be able to ask the questions that,
00:29:44.540
uh, you all as women certainly had, even your parents, I would imagine probably had, uh, there was
00:29:51.000
no allowance for that. It was, here's what's happening and you're going to take it or else.
00:29:56.200
Uh, so to be able to push back on that, to have your records reinstated, uh, I mean, it's a big,
00:30:03.760
big deal to be a program record holder, uh, and to have that taken from you really stolen from you.
00:30:11.000
Uh, I believe apologies are in order from every institution, every university, uh, every academic
00:30:18.020
setting that has allowed for this to happen. Uh, and we've seen some, some major progress,
00:30:23.680
uh, again, on certainly coming from the Trump administration, how they are pushing back,
00:30:28.140
how they're ultimately withholding federal funds from universities or, or colleges, whatever it is
00:30:34.360
that don't adhere to this executive order to, to federal law, that federal law being title nine.
00:30:39.400
Uh, so hopefully, uh, this is something that we can put on their radar to, to watch what's happening
00:30:46.200
at RIT because, uh, as I understand it now, as I've seen in the headlines, uh, this, this man is
00:30:54.040
still benefiting from women's facilities, uh, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, um, we appreciate
00:31:03.240
you, Caroline and shedding a light on what is happening. Uh, because again, I, I would imagine
00:31:09.040
there are many, many people who want to, but many who are fearful, uh, maybe some who are supportive,
00:31:14.380
maybe some who, who don't understand, uh, the implications, just how regressive this really
00:31:20.760
is. Uh, but to be able to lend your voice, um, is really impactful. So very grateful for you. I'm
00:31:28.380
excited that you've joined this lawsuit, uh, now with, with your name. Uh, and I imagine we will be
00:31:34.880
victorious in this endeavor. I really do. Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. Um, it's been great
00:31:42.220
sharing a little bit more about everything about my experience. Well, thank you, Caroline. Uh,
00:31:48.060
really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you guys for tuning into the gains for girls
00:31:54.480
podcast. If you want to support the lawsuit, uh, the gains versus NCAA lawsuit that Caroline has now
00:32:01.200
joined, there's about 20 of us, uh, 20 female athletes from various different sports all across
00:32:06.800
the nation on this lawsuit. Uh, I want you to go to icons, women.com, um, icons. We had Marshy Smith
00:32:14.920
on not too long ago. She's one of the co-founders of icons. We've had Kim Jones on before, uh, another
00:32:19.780
co-founder of icons. Uh, they've really been able to support and rally us together, uh, as women,
00:32:27.640
as female athletes to make sure this lawsuit is successful, which I have no doubt in my mind
00:32:32.600
that it will be. Uh, so again, icons, women.com, uh, again, go to cozy earth, uh, check out their
00:32:39.940
new cuddle blanket. It's the best cozy earth.com. You can use my code gains G A I N E S for 40% off.