Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - August 16, 2023


RILEY GAINES PODCAST： Exploring the Science： How Testosterone Impacts Athletic Performance

Hosted by
Riley Gaines
Mentioned
Carol Hooven Semenya Tommy Lumberg Emma Hilton Gains Phil
RILEY GAINES PODCAST： Jackie Fulkrod's Bold Stand for Women's Tennis RILEY GAINES PODCAST： Powerlifting and Transgender Athletes： When Records Get a ＂Lift＂

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Length

24 minutes

Words per minute

151.85

Word count

3,744

Sentence count

265

Harmful content

Misogyny

30

sentences flagged

Toxicity

29

sentences flagged

Hate speech

13

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, Dr. Carol Hoeven joins me to talk about intersex and gender ideology in the sports world. She is a PhD from Harvard and served as a professor for over 20 years. In this episode we discuss intersex, gender ideology, and the science around intersex.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
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00:00:30.000 Welcome back to the Gains for Girls podcast.
00:00:36.200 I am so excited for today's guest.
00:00:38.840 Her name is Dr. Carol Hoeven.
00:00:40.860 She is going to be helping us understand how to follow the science, right?
00:00:44.960 The narrative that's constantly being pushed.
00:00:47.440 She maintained her PhD from Harvard,
00:00:49.560 where ultimately she ended up teaching for 20 years.
00:00:52.800 Here's my interview with Dr. Carol Hoeven.
00:00:55.860 So Carol, Dr. Hoeven, thank you so, so much for coming on.
00:01:00.400 First of all, I know how incredible you are.
00:01:03.320 We have been around each other.
00:01:04.780 We went on actually Dr. Phil together,
00:01:06.360 which never in my wildest dreams did I think we would ever do that.
00:01:10.140 But we've done some things together.
00:01:12.000 I know how awesome you are.
00:01:13.140 Would you start by just kind of letting the listeners know about you,
00:01:17.740 your background, your expertise,
00:01:19.780 and kind of what your knowledge in this whole gender ideology really is?
00:01:25.380 Sure. Thanks.
00:01:26.300 And first of all, thank you so much for having me.
00:01:28.680 I think you're obviously amazing too.
00:01:31.060 So we have a little fan club here.
00:01:32.640 So that's great.
00:01:33.580 But I really appreciate your inviting me on.
00:01:36.120 As far as my relevant background,
00:01:38.440 I earned my PhD at Harvard and my research.
00:01:43.500 First of all, I studied wild chimps in Uganda before I came to Harvard.
00:01:47.220 And that's what really allowed me to see sort of in the raw,
00:01:51.260 without human cultures, without human culture, 0.99
00:01:54.120 the difference between male and female animals.
00:01:57.860 And the males are just a lot bigger and stronger and more aggressive.
00:02:02.420 And that's a fact.
00:02:03.640 And that's a pattern that is relatively consistent across a wide variety of animals,
00:02:07.840 especially in mammals.
00:02:09.540 So that got me really interested in testosterone.
00:02:13.140 So when I came to Harvard for my PhD, that's what I studied.
00:02:16.560 And I really focused on certain aspects of cognition and how the sexes differ
00:02:22.220 and what role testosterone might play in that.
00:02:26.040 Um, so then I just stayed on at Harvard and ended up as of, um, last year, uh,
00:02:38.420 co-directing the undergraduate program in human evolutionary biology and also teaching.
00:02:44.120 So I taught a lot.
00:02:45.440 That was really my passion.
00:02:46.520 And I taught about hormones and sex differences for over 20 years to, um, Harvard undergrads.
00:02:54.040 Wow. Um, amazing.
00:02:56.660 So, so clearly you're very qualified to talk about, um, the topic that,
00:03:01.240 that has seemed to affect so many now, which is of course the, the trans issue, trans debate,
00:03:06.700 which shows you that they don't really have our best interests.
00:03:10.560 And when I say are, I don't mean just female athletes.
00:03:13.260 I don't even mean just women.
00:03:14.380 I mean, us as a, as a human, as a species, they don't have our best interests at heart,
00:03:20.940 which is utterly terrifying.
00:03:23.240 Yeah.
00:03:23.300 Um, before we get into kind of like the, the testosterone effects, the, the different
00:03:29.060 levels and stuff that different sporting governing bodies are covering, or I guess the guidelines
00:03:34.240 that, that they're pushing forward.
00:03:35.900 I wanted to start with you because you mentioned two sexes and, and pushback. 1.00
00:03:40.020 I hear all the time, again, traveling, whether that's testifying at the state level, the federal
00:03:44.880 level is this argument.
00:03:46.460 Okay.
00:03:46.880 Well, what about intersex?
00:03:48.260 And so you mentioned there are two sexes. 0.99
00:03:50.080 I constantly hear that there are three and people are indicating that intersex, again,
00:03:54.840 um, DSCs, and I'll, I'll let you go to just briefly an overview of what that really is.
00:04:01.320 Is this a third sex or is this a combination of the two sexes?
00:04:07.080 Yeah.
00:04:07.460 That's a great question.
00:04:08.820 And this misunderstanding is totally under is, is understandable.
00:04:12.880 So intersex, first of all, as a term is not particularly helpful in my view, the language around these
00:04:22.240 either differences or disorders of sexual development, DSD is sensitive and people disagree about the,
00:04:30.840 the proper terms to use.
00:04:32.720 Uh, but intersex really implies that one is between two sexes.
00:04:38.740 And that's why I think it's not helpful because in the overwhelming majority of these, I'll just,
00:04:45.300 of these DSDs in the overwhelming majority, 90 over 99%, there's, uh, they affect either males or females.
00:04:55.160 And so just, so this makes sense.
00:04:58.100 I should say, I said something about what the, what male and female mean.
00:05:02.680 And it's important to understand that because then you can understand why there isn't a third sex.
00:05:07.660 So it's really, if you look across all of these different species, look across sexually reproducing species,
00:05:14.480 there are two reproductive classes and the way that, and we're one of them and obviously we're mammals 1.00
00:05:22.320 and, uh, it's very clear in mammals that they're, um, males and females who must combine their gametes
00:05:29.620 to create an offspring.
00:05:31.560 And this is just how it works.
00:05:33.000 There's no case of a third gamete in any species.
00:05:38.960 There are like clownfish that can change sex throughout the course of their lives.
00:05:44.600 There are flatworms that can produce both gamete types.
00:05:48.400 Uh, so those examples only illustrate, still illustrate that there's only male and female,
00:05:56.600 but in mammals, you are either male or female.
00:06:00.160 You cannot change sex over the course of your life and you, and there's no cases. 0.93
00:06:05.680 And I've looked very hard and many people have looked very hard.
00:06:08.440 There may be one questionable case in the literature in which an individual produced viable sperm
00:06:15.680 and eggs.
00:06:17.180 Uh, and I don't believe that case.
00:06:20.060 I don't believe that that case exists.
00:06:22.220 If you understand the endocrine system and the control of gamete production, again, that's
00:06:26.600 sperm and eggs.
00:06:27.760 It's almost impossible for a, um, testis and an ovary at the same time to be stimulated by testosterone
00:06:36.880 and estrogen to produce viable gametes.
00:06:39.700 If that were the case, then that person would, you could potentially say maybe that person
00:06:44.640 is truly intersex is both, both male and female, but that doesn't mean that's a third sex.
00:06:51.240 It's just has female traits and has male traits. 1.00
00:06:55.340 So there are cases.
00:06:57.700 So here's where the confusion lies.
00:06:59.680 There is the probably, uh, a calm, one of the most common, uh, DSDs in males who are competing
00:07:12.620 in the female category.
00:07:13.920 And there are some prominent examples of these, um, athletes.
00:07:19.860 They're overrepresented by about 140 times compared to the prevalence in the, uh, general
00:07:25.800 population.
00:07:26.460 They tend to be overrepresented in, uh, elite sports because these are males who, I won't
00:07:35.260 get into the endocrinology, but I'm happy to, uh, if you want an explanation, these are
00:07:39.260 males.
00:07:39.560 They can't produce a certain enzyme that converts testosterone into DHT, which is a more potent
00:07:49.560 androgen. 0.77
00:07:50.600 That androgen is necessary for the development of the penis in utero. 0.99
00:07:55.100 So if it's not present, sort of the default state is something like a vagina, which does 0.95
00:08:01.620 not connect to a uterus because there is no uterus in males. 0.90
00:08:05.280 Although it's possible if you don't have androgen action that you end up with external genitalia
00:08:10.940 that look female, but everything else is male.
00:08:14.340 The brain is male. 0.96
00:08:15.940 There's internal testes that never descend into a scrotal sac.
00:08:20.120 This is called 5-alpha reductase deficiency syndrome or 5-ARD.
00:08:25.420 It, it appears that this is, uh, what Castor Semenya, the DSD that Castor Semenya had, and
00:08:33.860 there's pretty good, uh, documentation on that.
00:08:37.320 And the problem arises because this person is, if, uh, born in a, you know, potentially remote
00:08:46.880 area without, um, sort of modern medical care, these people might be sexed as female at birth 0.74
00:08:54.840 and then raised in a female social category. 0.99
00:08:59.480 Uh, but most of them actually end up transitioning in puberty to living as a male because they feel
00:09:05.900 very masculine.
00:09:07.220 They tend to feel like a typical male because they've had masculinization of the brain in
00:09:11.400 utero.
00:09:12.940 So that is an example where people will say, look, if this person has something that looks 0.99
00:09:19.320 like a vagina, well, that's a female characteristic. 1.00
00:09:21.460 That person has male and female traits. 0.99
00:09:24.300 So that's an intersex person. 0.76
00:09:26.320 No, that is a male who has an underdeveloped, uh, underdeveloped, say, external genitalia because 0.61
00:09:33.080 of an enzyme deficiency.
00:09:34.660 This is a male.
00:09:36.240 Uh, so that is the body plan to produce gametes and their evolutionary biologists understand
00:09:42.440 why that's important because it explains if you have the body plan to produce gametes, you
00:09:47.860 have different sexual and reproductive strategies than those of us who have body plans to produce
00:09:53.500 ovaries.
00:09:54.140 We have different kinds of hormones, which are reproductive hormones, testosterone and estrogen.
00:09:59.660 Those hormones shape not only our reproductive system, but also our brains and our secondary 0.63
00:10:05.140 sex characteristics.
00:10:06.240 Like either having, you know, breasts and wide hips and more fat or having a larger body 0.96
00:10:13.340 size, more muscle, um, and facial hair and a deeper voice.
00:10:18.480 Those are all about reproduction.
00:10:20.840 And those are all about the differences in hormones.
00:10:24.020 So people, so males with that particular DSD have all of those other masculine traits.
00:10:30.440 And, uh, so intersex, first of all, is not a helpful term.
00:10:36.320 These are clearly males.
00:10:37.740 You can be a female and have high testosterone. 0.69
00:10:41.440 We all know that there are females who transition to living as males and they raise their testosterone.
00:10:46.160 That doesn't make them male.
00:10:48.020 There's still females who just have high testosterone. 1.00
00:10:51.020 You can be a female or, uh, who has a penis, something that seem, you know, looks like, or 0.99
00:10:56.620 functions as a penis constructed. 0.99
00:10:58.800 That doesn't make you male. 0.99
00:11:00.360 That makes a female who's had a certain, who's had a phalloplasty. 1.00
00:11:05.480 So there are traits that are associated with sex that are associated with the body plan to
00:11:13.000 produce eggs or sperm.
00:11:15.180 And those traits vary, but sex is just one or the other and you're stuck with it forever. 0.88
00:11:21.440 So I don't know if that helps.
00:11:23.380 No, it does.
00:11:24.220 It helps me even, right?
00:11:25.300 Because I think as a society, we hear this term intersex and again, speaking for myself,
00:11:30.780 especially, um, I, I would entirely would have considered castor-seminia intersex and maybe
00:11:37.800 that's, you know, an umbrella term, but having you explain it in the way that you did to where
00:11:43.420 it presents as a female anatomy, right? 1.00
00:11:46.600 But it's really an underdeveloped penis that, that makes a lot of sense. 0.98
00:11:50.940 Some people really bristle at that. 0.90
00:11:53.200 It's, it's the genital tubercle early in uterine development. 0.92
00:11:57.340 If exposed to testosterone, basically will develop into the penis. 0.85
00:12:01.880 If not exposed, it stays something that looks like the clitoris and it's, sorry, it's not 0.98
00:12:06.780 testosterone. 0.98
00:12:07.300 It's actually DAT.
00:12:08.620 It's, it's derivative of testosterone.
00:12:10.200 And what look like labia that all males and females have early in development, they're called
00:12:15.860 the genital folds.
00:12:17.500 Those will develop into scrotal sacs. 0.68
00:12:20.960 So scrotal sacs are like sort of elaborate, um, labia.
00:12:24.220 And you have to have DHT to develop those.
00:12:27.620 If you don't have DHT, you're stuck with the labia.
00:12:30.480 So you have, you end up with what is, you know, does have a vaginal opening. 0.99
00:12:35.080 And that seems like a vagina. 1.00
00:12:37.120 Um, and I just want to say these DSDs, these people need medical care. 0.98
00:12:41.920 You know, they have health issues.
00:12:45.080 They have social issues.
00:12:46.960 So, you know, it's hard to just talk about this as like, these people are pawns in this
00:12:51.320 game, but these are people who have these differences or in some cases disorders that
00:12:56.860 really are, you know, can be quite serious, um, medically and socially.
00:13:01.940 So we should treat these people with respect and compassion and dignity.
00:13:06.540 And they, you know, need the right healthcare.
00:13:09.320 But for sports, it's a little bit like the transgender issue where you have to face biological reality.
00:13:18.000 And it can be unpleasant, uh, in, in many ways, but it's necessary if we want to have
00:13:23.140 fair sports to talk about the biological reality.
00:13:27.500 Wow.
00:13:27.820 Oh my gosh.
00:13:28.540 That's incredibly interesting.
00:13:29.580 And so I guess my question for you, these guidelines that are being pushed by the International
00:13:35.980 Olympic Committee or the NCAA or the National Women's Soccer League, or these different sport
00:13:40.680 governing bodies, they have specific levels of testosterone, right?
00:13:45.040 And this is mumbo jumbo to a lot of people, including myself.
00:13:48.500 Um, when they were telling us, you know, men can, or I guess males can compete against women 0.98
00:13:53.240 if they've reduced their testosterone levels through HRT to a level of 10 nanomoles per liter,
00:13:58.040 for example, which was the guidelines for the IOC at the time.
00:14:02.360 Um, and I think it's still for the, for the Women's Soccer League.
00:14:04.880 And so my question for you, can you help us make sense of what these numbers mean?
00:14:09.200 Um, so what the average range of a, of a female's level of testosterone versus the average level
00:14:16.580 of a man's testosterone?
00:14:18.460 Yeah, that's, it's a really good question.
00:14:20.220 So I just want to say that these rules are predicated upon the idea that fair play could
00:14:29.360 potentially be achieved if males who transition to living as females by reducing their testosterone,
00:14:38.080 uh, if they reduce their testosterone, then that, that would mitigate the testosterone induced 0.78
00:14:44.340 advantages that are largely accumulated during puberty, right?
00:14:49.820 So that's when males really start to outperform females because of a testosterone, um, high
00:14:57.420 testosterone puberty.
00:14:58.640 So the idea is that if they reduce testosterone, then the, it'll be an equal playing field or
00:15:05.500 close to an equal playing field.
00:15:06.880 So there's no evidence for that, first of all.
00:15:09.260 Um, so, but then the regulations, the, the initial regulations were that males would have
00:15:15.180 to reduce their T levels to about 10 nanomals, um, per liter.
00:15:22.080 And the typical female range is actually only about 0.1 or 0.2 to around two nanomals per liter. 1.00
00:15:32.380 It is minuscule compared to what the range of males, which the lower end of that range is
00:15:40.220 about 12, right?
00:15:42.340 So that is many times the upper range, the very upper range of the female level. 0.85
00:15:49.380 And then the high end for males is around 30 to 40, uh, nanograms per liter.
00:15:56.040 And that all depends on the eight, you know, age, uh, of each sex, because obviously it varies
00:16:04.340 over age.
00:16:05.720 Um, and I just want to say some people argue, and I think disingenuously, um, that there is
00:16:13.480 great overlap between the testosterone levels of males and females.
00:16:18.060 It, there's no overlap in healthy, uh, people who don't have like a sick testosterone secreting
00:16:26.840 tumor or who has, especially male athletes who dope, they can increase their testosterone
00:16:33.260 through doping.
00:16:34.100 And then when they stop doping before a competition, they have gained all of the benefits from, uh,
00:16:41.920 training with artificially high testosterone levels.
00:16:44.960 Then they can, uh, stop doping so that when they take their drug test, they have relatively
00:16:50.760 low levels.
00:16:51.720 They can even, even have levels in the female range because doping shuts down the axis in 0.99
00:16:57.440 your brain that controls testosterone production from your testes.
00:17:01.180 So there you might have some evidence of overlap in testosterone levels, not because females are 0.91
00:17:07.400 high, but because sort of too many males are in the female range. 0.60
00:17:11.880 And that's generally because of disorders or doping.
00:17:15.780 You have to be suspicious if you hear claims that there's overlap, uh, in the levels, but
00:17:21.160 the levels that were required of like 10 nanomoles per liter is ridiculous because first of all,
00:17:28.020 the males still retain their advantages, um, that they benefited from in puberty.
00:17:33.700 And they get to have many times the current level of testosterone, uh, many times more than
00:17:41.900 females have. 0.98
00:17:42.900 So that's ridiculous. 1.00
00:17:44.020 Even five is ridiculous. 0.99
00:17:45.880 Even two is ridiculous. 0.98
00:17:47.760 Any male who's gone through male puberty, if they shut down their testosterone to nothing, 0.84
00:17:54.840 they on average, you know, if they're an elite athlete will still retain an advantage over
00:18:00.840 a female. 0.96
00:18:02.920 Wow.
00:18:03.600 Yeah.
00:18:03.840 No females in general. 0.88
00:18:05.100 Yeah.
00:18:05.680 Yeah.
00:18:06.140 Yeah.
00:18:06.380 So these, these levels, um, again, for the people who don't understand, if you're saying
00:18:10.760 10 nanomoles per liter, that's, that's 10 times essentially around or more or more often
00:18:17.840 much more.
00:18:18.640 It can be 20 or 30 times.
00:18:20.860 Yeah.
00:18:21.380 And that's what people don't realize.
00:18:23.040 And, and, and understandably, right.
00:18:25.120 We're not meant to understand those terms unless we've, we've done the training and the
00:18:29.120 school that you have done.
00:18:30.320 Right.
00:18:30.680 So that's, yeah, that's, that's incredible.
00:18:32.740 So what about HRT?
00:18:34.200 Um, again, in my experience at the NCAA, the guidelines changed to where it's, it's merely
00:18:39.680 12 months of hormone replacement therapy for a male to be able to compete in the women's
00:18:44.220 category is 12 months of HRT.
00:18:47.040 I know you mentioned previously that there's no amount of HRT, but, but 12 months, what does
00:18:51.480 that look like?
00:18:52.160 Um, I, I think that we can acknowledge it reduces performance a little bit, um, because
00:18:57.640 you are losing some of that, that, that muscle.
00:19:01.100 Yeah.
00:19:01.560 Yeah.
00:19:01.780 So, so what does that look like?
00:19:03.740 Um, and, and, and another question I guess I have is, is it dangerous for men to reduce 0.73
00:19:10.320 their testosterone levels when, when you are on average around somewhere within that 20,
00:19:14.800 30, 40 range for men, if you're asking men to get below five nanomoles per liters, is that
00:19:20.300 dangerous for them?
00:19:21.600 Um, so I'll just, I'm not sure we have time to answer the dangerous part, um, but I do
00:19:27.220 want to make clear that first of all, um, Emma Hilton and Tommy, Tommy Lumberg have done
00:19:35.040 a great, uh, review paper that shows very clearly all of the available evidence from, uh, research
00:19:43.880 that had been done previously on the effects of, uh, adult males suppressing testosterone
00:19:51.580 on the physical parameters that would affect sports performance, like muscle mass, strength,
00:20:03.260 hemoglobin, et cetera.
00:20:05.020 So the idea would be that, first of all, I just want to say in male puberty, testosterone
00:20:11.440 goes up, you know, it could be 10 to even 40 times that of female levels. 1.00
00:20:17.540 And it causes the energy that we take in from food to be used to, um, develop muscle over
00:20:25.840 fat and, uh, estrogen does the opposite.
00:20:30.040 And so as an athlete, as a female athlete, you have to carry more dead weight where males 1.00
00:20:35.940 are carrying, uh, far more muscle.
00:20:38.420 So there's an advantage right there in terms of lean body mass.
00:20:41.360 That's an, you know, for the same height and weight, if you have more lean body mass on
00:20:46.260 average, you go, you're going to, um, win at, you know, beat females in most sports. 0.97
00:20:54.200 Right.
00:20:54.540 And that's a large difference in lean body mass and strength.
00:20:58.860 And the, you know, upper body strength can be around 60% higher in males.
00:21:04.340 Like that's a massive advantage in many sports.
00:21:06.360 So there's height advantages.
00:21:10.060 So it depends on the sport, you know, what particular trait is going to give somebody an
00:21:14.420 advantage, but there's a height advantage that is a testosterone mediated.
00:21:18.040 There is bone density advantage, testosterone mediated muscle mass, much greater muscle mass,
00:21:25.840 uh, grip strength, different sort of, uh, bone structure that can aid in throwing speed
00:21:33.420 and power, especially, uh, heart and lung volume.
00:21:38.760 And what did I forget?
00:21:40.820 Um, so spray strength, speed, and power, right?
00:21:44.420 These are all testosterone mediated.
00:21:46.100 That's what happens in puberty.
00:21:48.000 And there is something like a muscle memory going on so that in adulthood, if you block testosterone,
00:21:55.360 you don't lose all of that muscle mass and suddenly put on female levels of fat. 1.00
00:22:01.100 What we have learned from all the research is that males who block testosterone in adulthood
00:22:06.660 lose in a year on average, 5% of their muscle and strength.
00:22:13.460 What does go down to female levels fairly quickly is hemoglobin. 0.95
00:22:16.780 And that does make a big difference in VO2 max, um, and power essentially and endurance.
00:22:24.080 And that's important, but it doesn't mitigate the 10 to, you know, 50% advantage that males
00:22:34.340 have over females on average in sports. 0.55
00:22:37.320 It will, uh, reduce the advantage, but it's not a fair playing field.
00:22:42.800 You, you don't reduce height.
00:22:44.200 You don't reduce lung volume.
00:22:45.420 You don't reduce bone density.
00:22:47.600 And you certainly don't lose the entire, uh, strength advantage and power advantage.
00:22:54.580 So it doesn't work.
00:22:57.240 And it's just sort of obvious to pretty much everyone, I think.
00:23:01.460 And the science backs it up.
00:23:03.580 Well, I can tell you from my own experience, you mentioned women feeling like they were carrying 0.86
00:23:08.560 dead weight.
00:23:09.460 There were more times than not.
00:23:11.060 When I swam, I felt like I was carrying dead weight.
00:23:13.560 So maybe this is my excuse, right?
00:23:15.620 Um, but Dr.
00:23:17.360 Hoeven, I know you have to run.
00:23:19.660 We could talk about this forever merely just because I'm super interested.
00:23:23.380 Um, I think this is incredibly captivating and you did such an amazing job of explaining
00:23:27.980 it.
00:23:28.260 And really we couldn't be more grateful for you and more importantly for your stance and
00:23:33.080 standing for the truth.
00:23:34.500 Um, and just very briefly plug your book one more time.
00:23:38.300 I, I, people need to read this.
00:23:39.920 This is an amazing book.
00:23:41.000 Um, and, and let us know where we can find you on social medias.
00:23:44.600 Oh, thank you so much.
00:23:45.540 Okay.
00:23:45.980 It's, um, there's a different cover in the UK and a different title, but it's basically,
00:23:51.120 um, T the story of testosterone, the hormone that dominates and divides us.
00:23:56.280 I'm on Twitter at, at Hoovlet, H-O-O-V-L-E-T.
00:24:02.540 I'm on Instagram, carol.hooven and follow me on Instagram because I want to start posting
00:24:07.580 and maybe I'll be inspired if I get more followers.
00:24:09.440 And that's about it for social media.
00:24:11.840 I'm on Carol.
00:24:12.580 I have a website that I need to update, uh, carolhooven.com and Carol Hooven is C-A-R-O-L-E-H-O-O-V-E-N.
00:24:23.180 Thank you, Dr. Hooven.
00:24:24.640 We will see each other in a few days.
00:24:26.240 Thank you.
00:24:26.740 We will see each other in a few days.
00:24:28.380 We will see each other in a few days.
00:24:30.380 We will see each other in a few days.
00:24:36.380 We will see each other in a few days.
00:24:38.380 We will see each other in a few days.