Jackie Folkrod is the former President of the Cheyenneepenne Tennis Association Board. She was on the board when the announcement was made that a transgender athlete would be competing in a women's division at the Governor's Cup, a recreational tennis tournament held in her home state of Wyoming.
00:01:25.400So I have volunteered with our Cheyenne Tennis Association.
00:01:29.220It's basically a community outreach for local tennis at the rec level to have involvement in tennis as a community.
00:01:38.520And so we host a tournament every year called the Governor's Cup.
00:01:44.340And when it was brought to my attention about a week and a half before the tournament, maybe about two weeks,
00:01:50.980that there was going to be a transgender athlete that was a male transitioning to female playing in the women's draw.
00:02:00.080I was very much against it and thought that's not the place where we need to have men playing.
00:02:06.440I feel like women should play against women in a women's draw because it's specifically for women.
00:02:11.840And when I was told the news, we were at a meeting to try to just figure out the final details of our tournament.
00:02:19.740This was kind of like a bomb that was dropped on the board.
00:02:22.800And so I was like, okay, well, we can't, you know, we have to reevaluate what it is that we're offering because we need to be honest.
00:02:31.280I felt like that was the most important to let our community members know what was happening because I felt like everybody deserved to have a choice of whether or not they wanted to participate or if they wanted to withdraw the registration.
00:02:42.860And as you know, it's probably not the most comfortable or polite conversation, but it is something that is in, you know, ever present in a lot of sports and athletics.
00:02:54.060And I felt like, you know, this isn't right for our community.
00:02:57.340We are not, we are not about supporting having, you know, men take over women athletics because my mind went to what is the next thing that is going to happen?
00:03:06.520What is the next sport that is going to be in jeopardy of having a man come in and over, you know, overtake women's opportunity?
00:03:12.860So I, you know, I had a couple like, you know, I guess clerical type things I needed to finish up before I submitted my resignation, but it was within 24 hours of finding out the news about the tournament and how it was, you know, pushed aside and it needed to be kept hush hush at the upper levels.
00:03:32.560I guess you could say we are, because we are, because we are a rec sport and it was a sanctioned tournament by USTA, USTA is sort of like the governing body for the tournament and their policies for transgender athletes is very loose.
00:03:47.940And there isn't a guideline that specifically says yes or no.
00:03:51.960So it's up for interpretation basically at the local level.
00:03:55.740And my interpretation was, no, this is not appropriate for our tournament.
00:03:59.900Like I said, I was the minority in the room while other board members might have been, you know, upset about it.
00:04:06.520But they weren't as vocal to take a stand.
00:04:12.140And after I resigned, I wasn't expecting, you know, the media to kind of take off with the story.
00:04:19.320I wasn't expecting to be approached by the newspaper.
00:04:21.960My ambition or my desire was to reach out to my representative and figure out a way that we could do some kind of law to protect women's sports, because I felt like it was missing at the rec level.
00:04:35.620Wyoming had just recently passed a law for protection for females in like scholastic sports.
00:04:42.760So from seventh grade to senior year that they had made the law, you know, we're not going to have men competing in women's sports.
00:04:50.200And while that is great, and I'm happy that we have that in place, it leaves a lot of, a lot open, I guess, as far as after, you know, after high school.
00:05:02.780And because we were a wreck, we didn't apply for that law to protect us as far as like saying, no, we're not going to have this gentleman playing the women's draw.
00:05:13.180So once I was actually out of town this last week.
00:05:16.920So this last week was, of course, the tournament and I wasn't anticipating anything and Cowboy State Daily, one of the reporters had reached out to me and asked if he could do an article and I had agreed willingly.
00:05:28.480I would have to say I do respect Leo and his reporting skills because everything that I had said in our interview, he directly reported and he was fair.
00:05:38.520I do feel like he gave, you know, my perspective as well as Ross's perspective because he did reach out to him.
00:05:44.260Um, and so obviously there's a, a disagreement between the two parties because I believe one way and he believes the other.
00:05:52.800Um, and so then once I had done the article with Cowboy State Daily, it kind of hit media.
00:05:59.560And after social media, I mean, it took off like after that, it was like wildfire and I was surprised at all the outlets that had picked up the story and had run with it.
00:06:09.660And then what is even more surprising is how it changes the headline because I went from being the president of the board to a tennis coach to an official.
00:06:20.440Um, and while it can be left up for interpretation, I don't want to give, um, you know, misinformation.
00:06:27.180I'm, I'm not a tennis coach by any stretch of the imagination.
00:06:30.020I don't have the qualifications or the certifications behind me to, to stand as such as a coach.
00:06:35.980Um, I was simply the board president and I just, I was not okay with the direction that things were heading.
00:06:41.780And I felt like I needed to extend my efforts in a different direction to help protect women in athletics, at least in our state at the very minimum, um, to set a precedence that this is not okay in Wyoming and we won't tolerate it.
00:07:07.660There's, there's of course the federal level where we have title nine, but there's also the state level, as you mentioned, and there's varying levels of protection, even among the state level.
00:07:16.720But then you also have policies and guidelines, um, such as, you know, the tennis guidelines, um, which, so there's a lot of, a lot of different things going on, but I want to, I want to go back to that board meeting.
00:07:29.380So they, they had you guys in here, this was kind of like a bomb, as you mentioned, and were you kind of just expected not to tell the athletes?
00:07:39.000I'm sure they didn't explicitly say, don't tell the athletes, but was it kind of like, this is happening.
00:07:48.000It was, you know, I wasn't told that I couldn't have my opinion.
00:07:51.060So I do want to, I guess, be fair about that.
00:07:53.960However, it was, we're not going to take into account what it is that you're saying we're, we've made a decision at the tournament level and above, and this is how we're going to handle things.
00:08:04.640And it was basically, we will notify the athletes in that specific draw.
00:08:09.120And if they choose to withdraw the registration, they can.
00:08:12.620And then, um, you know, the expectation was they were thinking that the competition wouldn't be there for Ross to make it worth his while to drive up to Wyoming to play the tournament.
00:08:22.480So without taking a stand and saying, no, we're not, we're not going to allow this to happen.
00:08:28.800And we are going to protect our women draw.
00:08:30.740It was like, well, we'll just wait and see how it plays out and hope for the best.
00:08:36.080And I just, I wasn't comfortable with that.
00:08:38.120I didn't think that that was, you know, appropriate for what, what it is that we stand for.
00:08:43.920And you also mentioned the guidelines.
00:08:46.440And I was curious, I looked up what the United States Tennis Association guidelines were.
00:08:51.360And it says for a sufficient length of time to minimize gender related advantages in sport competitions.
00:08:57.600And I thought this was so interesting because by making such a statement, they're acknowledging the obvious.
00:09:04.080And that's that one gender does in fact have advantages over the other, which is more than, sadly, this is more than a lot of organizations are doing, governing bodies are doing.
00:09:14.120Um, but they're also acknowledging that there's no way necessarily to eliminate those advantages only to minimize them.
00:09:23.120That's the thing that there is no way to both be inclusive and fair when it comes to this.
00:09:28.480And so I appreciate how you mentioned those guidelines are incredibly lenient.
00:09:33.120Um, it doesn't necessarily have any strict, you know, cutoffs or something like that, which would really make sense.
00:09:41.460Um, but another question I had was, is, was, is there age ranges as well in these categories that this, this draw, um, did they have this split up by of course, sex and age within the, within the sex?
00:09:55.520Or was it just all women compete against each other?
00:10:01.460And then how, how a tournament will break down is based on levels.
00:10:05.020So we'll have anywhere from like a three, five singles, which is pretty new to tennis all the way up to probably, I mean, I think you can have like four or five, five O rated tennis players.
00:10:16.400Um, and, and I don't want to, you know, bash our, our tennis community in Wyoming, but there are probably not going to be as many women who are rated at the four or five level in singles.
00:10:29.140As we would have at like three, five or four O.
00:10:31.980And so the competition would be, I mean, it would be at a disadvantage if this player Ross decided that he was going to come in and play, um, the open women's draw.
00:10:43.800And the other thing is that it allows, um, we have some of our high school athletes that would have been able to compete in this draw.
00:10:52.920So senior girls essentially from high school would compete in this open draw.
00:10:57.480And then it would be a very, very, a very uneven competition, you know, there as a, you know, 17 year old, 16 to 18 year old, I would say you're still developing.
00:11:07.720So you have that, I mean, granted, if you play an adult woman, there's a, there's a difference there.
00:11:13.100But then if you're playing against a man, I mean, there's just such a huge gap as far as advantage that he would essentially have over all the players and that's, you know, giving him an unfair advantage to win.
00:11:23.860And I know that a lot of the articles had noted that, you know, this tournament wasn't a huge deal.
00:11:29.640It's not a, you know, a nationally recognized tournament and it's, you know, it's not that many points, but still in all you get points from a tournament and it helps your rating as a USTA player.
00:11:42.060And then it essentially will help you in your seeding.
00:11:44.740So whether it's one point or 20 points, it's still points that are added to your rating.
00:11:49.420And it does make a difference because if you're at the very top of your game and you are seated at number two, because there's a difference of, you know, two points, wouldn't this tournament have made a difference?
00:12:00.220So it's just, it's interesting how that conversation went, that it's like, oh, it's not that big of a deal.
00:12:07.140But then if we were to essentially allow this, you know, matchup to happen, then my question was, well, then what's the next thing?
00:12:16.360What is going to be the next athlete that is going to have to go up against a man in a women's competition?
00:12:23.220And it's, you know, I think that it, it essentially is like a ripple effect of how it affects, you know, the men and the women in our society, as far as what opportunities as women we have.
00:12:40.080Was this the first tennis match or draw that Ross had entered into as a woman on the, in the women's category?
00:12:49.480No, he had played in tournaments down in Colorado, and I believe he is also a collegiate level player.
00:12:56.840So I think he's down in Texas with one of the D2 schools down there.
00:13:01.480And I know that he was quoted saying that, you know, I haven't had this kind of pushback before.
00:13:07.200And I just wonder, is it because so many people are conditioned to believe they can't make a stand and they can't have a voice of their opinion because of everything that is associated with coming out against, you know, transgender athletes?
00:13:20.540It's, it's, you know, you, you do face a lot of fire.
00:13:24.440And, you know, I have to say, I'm pretty fortunate as far as where I live and the community that we're a part of that the majority has been in support of it.
00:13:34.060We need to have somebody stand up and take initiative because we do need to protect women athletics.
00:13:40.080So, yeah, I want to talk to you about that support.
00:13:45.360Because, again, we were talking off camera a little, and I think understandably and naturally so, there is kind of this, which you didn't really hesitate.
00:13:55.040You were done within 24 hours, which is phenomenal.
00:13:57.440But speaking from my experience and talking with girls who went through the Leah Thomas situation, they were hesitant.
00:14:05.040They were scared of the cancel culture that we live in.
00:14:08.980They were scared of the labels, the backlash that they would receive.
00:14:14.120What has that support looked like for you since these headlines came out?
00:14:50.980I had a father of a one-and-a-half-year-old, and he was like, you know, I know my daughter is only one-and-a-half,
00:14:56.480but I can't imagine living in a world where she doesn't have the opportunity.
00:14:59.840So thank you so much for taking the chance to, you know, stand up and be the voice for women because we need that in our culture.
00:15:10.300So it has been overwhelming as far as support, and it was certainly not anything I ever expected.
00:15:16.880I, you know, I wanted to make a difference in my community.
00:15:19.520I just didn't know at what level it would reach.
00:15:23.860So that has been, I mean, that has been probably the greatest blessing.
00:15:29.140You know, I was a little bit hesitant to, you know, give up tennis because I love it.
00:15:34.480It's something that I feel like you can always play it.
00:15:37.160And while I may not be a part of the CTA, I do know that I wouldn't be banned from our courts locally.
00:15:46.360I think that, I mean, that was one of my fears that, you know, that I'm going to be banned,
00:15:50.460that people wouldn't want to play with me because that's the crazy lady that said something.
00:15:54.940And so I just, you know, after hearing what I have heard, it's just, it's been, you know, heartwarming and very humbling that there is a community out there that is like,
00:16:06.500finally, there is, this is a, you know, a wave that's happening.
00:16:09.800It's not, we're not going to go silently.
00:16:12.760And that we would have a community to support us in this fight for women athletics.
00:16:18.400So that has been the, I think, the greatest surprise of all of this.
00:16:22.640Do you think other board members will follow suit?
00:16:27.180Well, I could say for sure my mom did.
00:16:32.780And her and I, I mean, we had a conversation and with, you know, after finding out the news, we were both like, we can't do this.
00:16:39.200This isn't, you know, I have nieces and I, I just, I can't imagine them not having the opportunity, you know, they're young.
00:16:47.160And so it was, you know, that notion of, if I, if I have an opportunity to do something, I'm going to take the opportunity to do something.
00:16:55.960And she was of the same mindset that, you know, she doesn't want her little granddaughter to be like, well, Maga, why?
00:17:24.540As far as the other board members go, I'm not sure.
00:17:28.020I'm not sure I'm their favorite as far as like, because this kind of all blew up and it was right before the tournament.
00:17:35.260And granted, I think timing is everything.
00:17:38.200And at the same time, timing is everything.
00:17:41.420And I feel like it, you know, it just is what it is.
00:17:46.020And it happened at the time that it happened.
00:17:48.460And, you know, from what I can tell, as far as like the draws go, I think, you know, they want to say that they had a very successful tournament.
00:17:56.320Ross did withdraw from the tournament.
00:19:28.200That was really cool to see her come out.
00:19:30.460And, you know, the timing of her article with the, you know, the USTA and the 55 plus over league for women.
00:19:37.080I mean, that's incredible that she would take that stance.
00:19:39.680And, you know, when you, I feel like if you're not a professional level tennis player, but you want to compete, that's, that's the arena that you compete in.
00:19:47.760And sometimes maybe this is all people have.
00:19:50.760And, you know, as a female, you would want a fair competition.
00:19:54.280You don't want to be overrun by a male.
00:19:59.720Speaking of tennis legends, I will bring up Billie Jean King.
00:20:04.220She's who we essentially have to, to thank for title nine.
00:20:07.800She's taken the total opposite approach now and has undermined everything she once fought for by now actively fighting for male inclusion in women's sports and women's spaces.
00:20:20.240To me, this, as I mentioned, it takes away from what she spent her, her life fighting for.
00:20:27.420She was a trailblazer is who gave me the opportunity to play and to succeed and to, to grow in confidence and my leadership skills and this greater understanding of what a team is, how to contribute.
00:20:42.120Um, and now she, she's totally throwing that out of the window, which blows my mind.
00:20:48.320I, it's, it's a realization for me to try and grasp.
00:20:54.520What now that you've resigned, that's a big chapter of your life that you've kind of closed or maybe not necessarily closed, but you're, you're stepping away from for now.
00:21:08.320So as far as the future, I am very passionate about figuring out how it is we can protect women's sports and all women's sports, whether it's scholastically recreationally, I want all women to have a place to compete, um, that is fair.
00:21:23.500So I don't know exactly what that looks like.
00:21:26.120I know that with some of the representatives in our state, um, Ben Hornock, he is my specific representative.
00:21:33.220He did put out an article, um, in support of, you know, making sure that women's athletics stay women athletics.
00:21:40.500Um, I know that there is a lot of talk amongst, you know, Congress, as far as how it is, we can protect women's sports.
00:21:47.800And I know there's a ton of other issues that are, that are important.
00:21:51.660And I feel that whatever it is that I can do at my local level to help protect women athletics, that's, that's my passion project right now.
00:22:00.200I think that that is what is necessary and somebody has to, somebody has to hold the line.
00:22:14.880Um, and again, speaking for myself, it was a passion.
00:22:17.920I didn't even know I had until I was directly impacted.
00:22:21.740Um, but I think locking arms, doing everything we can, um, coaches, parents, medical professionals, of course, the athletes themselves, both male and female officials.
00:22:47.260Um, but I, and I speak for so many, when I say this, we couldn't be more grateful for you and your sacrifice because it is, it's a sacrifice to take the stance that you've taken.
00:23:43.660Uh, she's going to join the show as we follow the science, make sure to like, and subscribe to the podcast on outkick apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.