Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - August 11, 2023


RILEY GAINES PODCAST： Jackie Fulkrod's Bold Stand for Women's Tennis

Topics
former president Cheyenne Tennis Association board
Hosted by
Riley Gaines
Mentioned
Ross Jackie Folkrod Carol Hooven Ben Harnwell Martina
RILEY GAINES PODCAST： Fighting Back Against the Mob with Paula Scanlan RILEY GAINES PODCAST： Exploring the Science： How Testosterone Impacts Athletic Performance

Episode Stats


Length

24 minutes

Words per minute

177.26

Word count

4,321

Sentence count

262

Harmful content

Misogyny

10

sentences flagged

Hate speech

2

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Jackie Folkrod is the former President of the Cheyenneepenne Tennis Association Board. She was on the board when the announcement was made that a transgender athlete would be competing in a women's division at the Governor's Cup, a recreational tennis tournament held in her home state of Wyoming.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
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00:00:30.000 Welcome back to the Games for Girls podcast.
00:00:36.860 I am so excited about this guest because she's one of the voices that we've been missing in this fight.
00:00:42.640 We've been missing the coaches.
00:00:43.980 We've been missing the officials, the authority figures.
00:00:47.400 Jackie Folkrod is the former president of the Cheyenne Tennis Association board.
00:00:52.880 Keep watching to find out why I use the word former.
00:00:56.060 Okay, Jackie, you made headlines.
00:00:59.280 And I want to tell you from the bottom of my heart just how grateful I am for these headlines.
00:01:05.340 I was telling you off camera, your voice and the voices like yours are the voices that we've been missing in this fight.
00:01:12.940 So would you mind just sharing a little bit about your story, what these headlines I'm referring to really are,
00:01:19.680 what your position was, and what your responsibilities were before all of this happened?
00:01:25.060 Sure.
00:01:25.400 So I have volunteered with our Cheyenne Tennis Association.
00:01:29.220 It's basically a community outreach for local tennis at the rec level to have involvement in tennis as a community.
00:01:38.520 And so we host a tournament every year called the Governor's Cup.
00:01:44.340 And when it was brought to my attention about a week and a half before the tournament, maybe about two weeks,
00:01:50.980 that there was going to be a transgender athlete that was a male transitioning to female playing in the women's draw.
00:02:00.080 I was very much against it and thought that's not the place where we need to have men playing.
00:02:06.440 I feel like women should play against women in a women's draw because it's specifically for women. 1.00
00:02:11.840 And when I was told the news, we were at a meeting to try to just figure out the final details of our tournament.
00:02:19.740 This was kind of like a bomb that was dropped on the board.
00:02:22.800 And so I was like, okay, well, we can't, you know, we have to reevaluate what it is that we're offering because we need to be honest.
00:02:31.280 I felt like that was the most important to let our community members know what was happening because I felt like everybody deserved to have a choice of whether or not they wanted to participate or if they wanted to withdraw the registration.
00:02:42.860 And as you know, it's probably not the most comfortable or polite conversation, but it is something that is in, you know, ever present in a lot of sports and athletics.
00:02:54.060 And I felt like, you know, this isn't right for our community.
00:02:57.340 We are not, we are not about supporting having, you know, men take over women athletics because my mind went to what is the next thing that is going to happen?
00:03:06.520 What is the next sport that is going to be in jeopardy of having a man come in and over, you know, overtake women's opportunity? 1.00
00:03:12.860 So I, you know, I had a couple like, you know, I guess clerical type things I needed to finish up before I submitted my resignation, but it was within 24 hours of finding out the news about the tournament and how it was, you know, pushed aside and it needed to be kept hush hush at the upper levels.
00:03:32.560 I guess you could say we are, because we are, because we are a rec sport and it was a sanctioned tournament by USTA, USTA is sort of like the governing body for the tournament and their policies for transgender athletes is very loose.
00:03:47.940 And there isn't a guideline that specifically says yes or no.
00:03:51.960 So it's up for interpretation basically at the local level.
00:03:55.740 And my interpretation was, no, this is not appropriate for our tournament.
00:03:59.900 Like I said, I was the minority in the room while other board members might have been, you know, upset about it.
00:04:06.520 But they weren't as vocal to take a stand.
00:04:10.060 So I, of course, I did resign.
00:04:12.140 And after I resigned, I wasn't expecting, you know, the media to kind of take off with the story.
00:04:19.320 I wasn't expecting to be approached by the newspaper.
00:04:21.960 My ambition or my desire was to reach out to my representative and figure out a way that we could do some kind of law to protect women's sports, because I felt like it was missing at the rec level.
00:04:35.620 Wyoming had just recently passed a law for protection for females in like scholastic sports.
00:04:42.760 So from seventh grade to senior year that they had made the law, you know, we're not going to have men competing in women's sports.
00:04:50.200 And while that is great, and I'm happy that we have that in place, it leaves a lot of, a lot open, I guess, as far as after, you know, after high school.
00:05:02.780 And because we were a wreck, we didn't apply for that law to protect us as far as like saying, no, we're not going to have this gentleman playing the women's draw.
00:05:13.180 So once I was actually out of town this last week.
00:05:16.920 So this last week was, of course, the tournament and I wasn't anticipating anything and Cowboy State Daily, one of the reporters had reached out to me and asked if he could do an article and I had agreed willingly.
00:05:28.480 I would have to say I do respect Leo and his reporting skills because everything that I had said in our interview, he directly reported and he was fair.
00:05:38.520 I do feel like he gave, you know, my perspective as well as Ross's perspective because he did reach out to him.
00:05:44.260 Um, and so obviously there's a, a disagreement between the two parties because I believe one way and he believes the other.
00:05:52.800 Um, and so then once I had done the article with Cowboy State Daily, it kind of hit media.
00:05:59.560 And after social media, I mean, it took off like after that, it was like wildfire and I was surprised at all the outlets that had picked up the story and had run with it.
00:06:09.660 And then what is even more surprising is how it changes the headline because I went from being the president of the board to a tennis coach to an official.
00:06:20.440 Um, and while it can be left up for interpretation, I don't want to give, um, you know, misinformation.
00:06:27.180 I'm, I'm not a tennis coach by any stretch of the imagination.
00:06:30.020 I don't have the qualifications or the certifications behind me to, to stand as such as a coach.
00:06:35.980 Um, I was simply the board president and I just, I was not okay with the direction that things were heading.
00:06:41.780 And I felt like I needed to extend my efforts in a different direction to help protect women in athletics, at least in our state at the very minimum, um, to set a precedence that this is not okay in Wyoming and we won't tolerate it.
00:06:55.240 So that's kind of how it evolved.
00:06:57.620 And now here we are today.
00:07:00.440 Well, again, I think it's amazing you're here today, but you're right.
00:07:04.200 There's a lot of levels to this.
00:07:06.280 I don't think people realize, right.
00:07:07.660 There's, there's of course the federal level where we have title nine, but there's also the state level, as you mentioned, and there's varying levels of protection, even among the state level.
00:07:16.720 But then you also have policies and guidelines, um, such as, you know, the tennis guidelines, um, which, so there's a lot of, a lot of different things going on, but I want to, I want to go back to that board meeting.
00:07:29.380 So they, they had you guys in here, this was kind of like a bomb, as you mentioned, and were you kind of just expected not to tell the athletes?
00:07:39.000 I'm sure they didn't explicitly say, don't tell the athletes, but was it kind of like, this is happening.
00:07:44.660 It's a non-negotiable here we are.
00:07:47.780 Right.
00:07:48.000 It was, you know, I wasn't told that I couldn't have my opinion.
00:07:51.060 So I do want to, I guess, be fair about that.
00:07:53.960 However, it was, we're not going to take into account what it is that you're saying we're, we've made a decision at the tournament level and above, and this is how we're going to handle things.
00:08:04.640 And it was basically, we will notify the athletes in that specific draw.
00:08:09.120 And if they choose to withdraw the registration, they can.
00:08:12.620 And then, um, you know, the expectation was they were thinking that the competition wouldn't be there for Ross to make it worth his while to drive up to Wyoming to play the tournament.
00:08:22.480 So without taking a stand and saying, no, we're not, we're not going to allow this to happen.
00:08:28.800 And we are going to protect our women draw.
00:08:30.740 It was like, well, we'll just wait and see how it plays out and hope for the best.
00:08:36.080 And I just, I wasn't comfortable with that.
00:08:38.120 I didn't think that that was, you know, appropriate for what, what it is that we stand for.
00:08:43.920 And you also mentioned the guidelines.
00:08:46.440 And I was curious, I looked up what the United States Tennis Association guidelines were.
00:08:51.360 And it says for a sufficient length of time to minimize gender related advantages in sport competitions.
00:08:57.600 And I thought this was so interesting because by making such a statement, they're acknowledging the obvious.
00:09:04.080 And that's that one gender does in fact have advantages over the other, which is more than, sadly, this is more than a lot of organizations are doing, governing bodies are doing.
00:09:14.120 Um, but they're also acknowledging that there's no way necessarily to eliminate those advantages only to minimize them.
00:09:23.120 That's the thing that there is no way to both be inclusive and fair when it comes to this.
00:09:28.480 And so I appreciate how you mentioned those guidelines are incredibly lenient.
00:09:33.120 Um, it doesn't necessarily have any strict, you know, cutoffs or something like that, which would really make sense.
00:09:41.460 Um, but another question I had was, is, was, is there age ranges as well in these categories that this, this draw, um, did they have this split up by of course, sex and age within the, within the sex?
00:09:55.520 Or was it just all women compete against each other? 1.00
00:09:58.740 It was, uh, all women. 0.99
00:10:00.400 Cause it's an open draw.
00:10:01.460 And then how, how a tournament will break down is based on levels.
00:10:05.020 So we'll have anywhere from like a three, five singles, which is pretty new to tennis all the way up to probably, I mean, I think you can have like four or five, five O rated tennis players.
00:10:16.400 Um, and, and I don't want to, you know, bash our, our tennis community in Wyoming, but there are probably not going to be as many women who are rated at the four or five level in singles.
00:10:29.140 As we would have at like three, five or four O.
00:10:31.980 And so the competition would be, I mean, it would be at a disadvantage if this player Ross decided that he was going to come in and play, um, the open women's draw.
00:10:43.800 And the other thing is that it allows, um, we have some of our high school athletes that would have been able to compete in this draw.
00:10:52.920 So senior girls essentially from high school would compete in this open draw. 0.59
00:10:57.480 And then it would be a very, very, a very uneven competition, you know, there as a, you know, 17 year old, 16 to 18 year old, I would say you're still developing.
00:11:07.720 So you have that, I mean, granted, if you play an adult woman, there's a, there's a difference there.
00:11:13.100 But then if you're playing against a man, I mean, there's just such a huge gap as far as advantage that he would essentially have over all the players and that's, you know, giving him an unfair advantage to win.
00:11:23.860 And I know that a lot of the articles had noted that, you know, this tournament wasn't a huge deal.
00:11:29.640 It's not a, you know, a nationally recognized tournament and it's, you know, it's not that many points, but still in all you get points from a tournament and it helps your rating as a USTA player.
00:11:42.060 And then it essentially will help you in your seeding.
00:11:44.740 So whether it's one point or 20 points, it's still points that are added to your rating.
00:11:49.420 And it does make a difference because if you're at the very top of your game and you are seated at number two, because there's a difference of, you know, two points, wouldn't this tournament have made a difference?
00:12:00.220 So it's just, it's interesting how that conversation went, that it's like, oh, it's not that big of a deal.
00:12:07.140 But then if we were to essentially allow this, you know, matchup to happen, then my question was, well, then what's the next thing?
00:12:16.360 What is going to be the next athlete that is going to have to go up against a man in a women's competition? 1.00
00:12:21.640 And then what does that set?
00:12:23.220 And it's, you know, I think that it, it essentially is like a ripple effect of how it affects, you know, the men and the women in our society, as far as what opportunities as women we have.
00:12:35.080 Absolutely.
00:12:36.160 No, for sure.
00:12:37.360 And that's what we're seeing, right?
00:12:40.080 Was this the first tennis match or draw that Ross had entered into as a woman on the, in the women's category?
00:12:49.480 No, he had played in tournaments down in Colorado, and I believe he is also a collegiate level player.
00:12:56.840 So I think he's down in Texas with one of the D2 schools down there.
00:13:01.480 And I know that he was quoted saying that, you know, I haven't had this kind of pushback before.
00:13:07.200 And I just wonder, is it because so many people are conditioned to believe they can't make a stand and they can't have a voice of their opinion because of everything that is associated with coming out against, you know, transgender athletes?
00:13:20.540 It's, it's, you know, you, you do face a lot of fire.
00:13:24.440 And, you know, I have to say, I'm pretty fortunate as far as where I live and the community that we're a part of that the majority has been in support of it.
00:13:33.020 Like, this is enough.
00:13:34.060 We need to have somebody stand up and take initiative because we do need to protect women athletics.
00:13:40.080 So, yeah, I want to talk to you about that support.
00:13:45.360 Because, again, we were talking off camera a little, and I think understandably and naturally so, there is kind of this, which you didn't really hesitate.
00:13:55.040 You were done within 24 hours, which is phenomenal.
00:13:57.440 But speaking from my experience and talking with girls who went through the Leah Thomas situation, they were hesitant.
00:14:05.040 They were scared of the cancel culture that we live in.
00:14:08.980 They were scared of the labels, the backlash that they would receive.
00:14:14.120 What has that support looked like for you since these headlines came out?
00:14:20.540 And has it been overwhelming?
00:14:22.700 Is it, you know, is it more than you expected you would get?
00:14:26.640 It is absolutely more than I expected I would get.
00:14:29.320 I never imagined that, you know, people across the globe would reach out to me and say,
00:14:33.780 thank you so much for taking a stand.
00:14:35.540 And, I mean, it brings tears to my eyes that, you know, parents would reach out and say,
00:14:39.920 because of you, you know, I feel like my daughters will have a chance to play or compete in whatever they decide to compete in.
00:14:48.560 It may not necessarily be tennis.
00:14:50.980 I had a father of a one-and-a-half-year-old, and he was like, you know, I know my daughter is only one-and-a-half,
00:14:56.480 but I can't imagine living in a world where she doesn't have the opportunity.
00:14:59.840 So thank you so much for taking the chance to, you know, stand up and be the voice for women because we need that in our culture.
00:15:10.300 So it has been overwhelming as far as support, and it was certainly not anything I ever expected.
00:15:16.880 I, you know, I wanted to make a difference in my community.
00:15:19.520 I just didn't know at what level it would reach.
00:15:23.860 So that has been, I mean, that has been probably the greatest blessing.
00:15:29.140 You know, I was a little bit hesitant to, you know, give up tennis because I love it.
00:15:34.480 It's something that I feel like you can always play it.
00:15:37.160 And while I may not be a part of the CTA, I do know that I wouldn't be banned from our courts locally.
00:15:46.360 I think that, I mean, that was one of my fears that, you know, that I'm going to be banned,
00:15:50.460 that people wouldn't want to play with me because that's the crazy lady that said something. 1.00
00:15:54.940 And so I just, you know, after hearing what I have heard, it's just, it's been, you know, heartwarming and very humbling that there is a community out there that is like,
00:16:06.500 finally, there is, this is a, you know, a wave that's happening.
00:16:09.800 It's not, we're not going to go silently.
00:16:12.760 And that we would have a community to support us in this fight for women athletics.
00:16:18.400 So that has been the, I think, the greatest surprise of all of this.
00:16:22.640 Do you think other board members will follow suit?
00:16:27.180 Well, I could say for sure my mom did.
00:16:30.380 She was on the board as well.
00:16:32.780 And her and I, I mean, we had a conversation and with, you know, after finding out the news, we were both like, we can't do this.
00:16:39.200 This isn't, you know, I have nieces and I, I just, I can't imagine them not having the opportunity, you know, they're young.
00:16:47.160 And so it was, you know, that notion of, if I, if I have an opportunity to do something, I'm going to take the opportunity to do something.
00:16:55.960 And she was of the same mindset that, you know, she doesn't want her little granddaughter to be like, well, Maga, why?
00:17:02.240 That's what she calls her is Maga. 1.00
00:17:05.800 Why would, you know, what happened when this all was going down?
00:17:09.140 What, you know, what part did you play in it?
00:17:11.100 And, you know, to have that little voice of like, you know, you never know who you're influencing or who's looking up to you.
00:17:17.820 So to have that in the back of the mind of like, yes, this is the right fight to fight.
00:17:22.540 And we will absolutely stand up.
00:17:24.540 As far as the other board members go, I'm not sure.
00:17:28.020 I'm not sure I'm their favorite as far as like, because this kind of all blew up and it was right before the tournament.
00:17:35.260 And granted, I think timing is everything.
00:17:38.200 And at the same time, timing is everything.
00:17:41.420 And I feel like it, you know, it just is what it is.
00:17:46.020 And it happened at the time that it happened.
00:17:48.460 And, you know, from what I can tell, as far as like the draws go, I think, you know, they want to say that they had a very successful tournament.
00:17:56.320 Ross did withdraw from the tournament.
00:17:59.040 So there's both sides of that.
00:18:00.620 Like I had the reporter reaching out to me, like, well, what is your comment about him withdrawing?
00:18:06.040 And I said, it doesn't change my comment about women and athletics and men playing in women athletics.
00:18:12.000 That still stands.
00:18:13.560 Whether he plays or doesn't play, it's still wrong that he would play in the women's draw.
00:18:18.440 And, you know, I think it's a little bit of like that baiting of like, you know, oh, well, we had some kind of success.
00:18:24.900 And I don't know that that's necessarily the case.
00:18:27.120 I think this is just only the beginning of a greater battle that we would be faced in at least our state.
00:18:32.600 I know that there are other states that are probably facing the same thing, especially at the collegiate level.
00:18:39.600 I know that that is that's a huge issue.
00:18:42.720 Absolutely.
00:18:43.900 And you have the support of tennis legend, Martina.
00:18:47.220 I know.
00:18:48.700 Which is amazing.
00:18:50.400 It really is.
00:18:51.500 It is.
00:18:52.080 Someone so influential, so prominent, and she is on the other side of the political spectrum as it pertains to other issues. 0.93
00:19:01.760 It really does mean a lot.
00:19:03.740 It shows that common sense Americans know that this is wrong.
00:19:09.280 They know this is unfair.
00:19:10.760 Even the USTA policies admit this is unfair.
00:19:14.220 They admit it's wrong, whether it's blatantly, you know, whether they put that in explicit words or they worded it how they did.
00:19:21.500 They know this is wrong.
00:19:22.960 So to have a team support, I imagine that's pretty cool.
00:19:27.120 That was cool.
00:19:28.200 That was really cool to see her come out.
00:19:30.460 And, you know, the timing of her article with the, you know, the USTA and the 55 plus over league for women.
00:19:37.080 I mean, that's incredible that she would take that stance.
00:19:39.680 And, you know, when you, I feel like if you're not a professional level tennis player, but you want to compete, that's, that's the arena that you compete in.
00:19:47.760 And sometimes maybe this is all people have.
00:19:50.760 And, you know, as a female, you would want a fair competition. 1.00
00:19:54.280 You don't want to be overrun by a male.
00:19:56.800 So that was really cool.
00:19:58.700 Very cool.
00:19:59.720 Speaking of tennis legends, I will bring up Billie Jean King.
00:20:04.220 She's who we essentially have to, to thank for title nine.
00:20:07.800 She's taken the total opposite approach now and has undermined everything she once fought for by now actively fighting for male inclusion in women's sports and women's spaces.
00:20:20.240 To me, this, as I mentioned, it takes away from what she spent her, her life fighting for.
00:20:27.420 She was a trailblazer is who gave me the opportunity to play and to succeed and to, to grow in confidence and my leadership skills and this greater understanding of what a team is, how to contribute.
00:20:42.120 Um, and now she, she's totally throwing that out of the window, which blows my mind. 0.86
00:20:48.320 I, it's, it's a realization for me to try and grasp.
00:20:52.540 Um, but what's next for you?
00:20:54.520 What now that you've resigned, that's a big chapter of your life that you've kind of closed or maybe not necessarily closed, but you're, you're stepping away from for now.
00:21:05.120 So what's next for you?
00:21:06.360 What does the future look like?
00:21:08.320 So as far as the future, I am very passionate about figuring out how it is we can protect women's sports and all women's sports, whether it's scholastically recreationally, I want all women to have a place to compete, um, that is fair.
00:21:23.500 So I don't know exactly what that looks like.
00:21:26.120 I know that with some of the representatives in our state, um, Ben Hornock, he is my specific representative.
00:21:33.220 He did put out an article, um, in support of, you know, making sure that women's athletics stay women athletics.
00:21:40.500 Um, I know that there is a lot of talk amongst, you know, Congress, as far as how it is, we can protect women's sports.
00:21:47.800 And I know there's a ton of other issues that are, that are important.
00:21:51.660 And I feel that whatever it is that I can do at my local level to help protect women athletics, that's, that's my passion project right now.
00:22:00.200 I think that that is what is necessary and somebody has to, somebody has to hold the line.
00:22:05.960 So passion project.
00:22:08.040 I love that term.
00:22:11.240 Oh my gosh, because you're right.
00:22:12.800 That's exactly what this is.
00:22:14.880 Um, and again, speaking for myself, it was a passion.
00:22:17.920 I didn't even know I had until I was directly impacted.
00:22:21.740 Um, but I think locking arms, doing everything we can, um, coaches, parents, medical professionals, of course, the athletes themselves, both male and female officials.
00:22:33.060 I mean, it's, it's so crucial.
00:22:34.820 We lock arms and we say enough is enough.
00:22:36.920 And we hold the line, just as you mentioned.
00:22:38.780 Um, I just want to say another, thank you to both you and your mom.
00:22:44.000 Um, y'all are like a power duo.
00:22:45.840 I love it.
00:22:47.260 Um, but I, and I speak for so many, when I say this, we couldn't be more grateful for you and your sacrifice because it is, it's a sacrifice to take the stance that you've taken.
00:22:57.840 Um, but it's so worth it.
00:22:59.700 And you're, you're fighting for so many.
00:23:01.460 So thank you.
00:23:02.580 Thank you.
00:23:03.000 Thank you.
00:23:03.720 Of course.
00:23:04.540 Well, thank you.
00:23:05.220 Thank you so much for, for your sacrifice and for taking the stand and, and the heat.
00:23:10.180 I know that there was a lot of heat.
00:23:12.820 Always.
00:23:15.100 But when it's, you know, my, my motto is they wouldn't shoot at something they don't want to hit.
00:23:21.500 Um, we're over the target and onward.
00:23:24.660 I think people are starting to, they're becoming more bold.
00:23:27.520 They're becoming empowered and knowing that it's liberating to say the truth.
00:23:31.700 And you are a perfect example of that.
00:23:35.740 Thanks for listening to the games for girls podcast, uh, coming up on next Wednesday's edition of the games for girls podcast.
00:23:41.600 We have Dr.
00:23:42.560 Carol Hoeven.
00:23:43.660 Uh, she's going to join the show as we follow the science, make sure to like, and subscribe to the podcast on outkick apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:23:52.640 We'll see you next time.