Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - RILEY GAINES PODCAST： Speak the Truth, Even if Afraid： The Jennifer Sey Story

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00:00:30.000 Welcome back to the Games for Girls podcast.

00:00:35.460 Today we are talking to someone who knows firsthand what it means to be canceled

00:00:39.920 through this crazy cancel culture that we live in,

00:00:42.520 but also someone who's seen firsthand the corruption within athletics.

00:00:46.920 Here's the interview with Jennifer Say.

00:00:50.160 So Jen, I am so excited that you're on.

00:00:53.500 Would you start by telling us a little bit about your athletic career?

00:00:58.060 Because you are phenomenal.

00:01:00.260 You are so well-accomplished.

00:01:02.160 Let's hear about it.

00:01:03.600 Sure, yeah.

00:01:05.000 I'm a little older than you.

00:01:06.580 My athletic career was back in the 80s.

00:01:09.220 I started gymnastics actually in the 70s.

00:01:12.700 Most of your listeners have probably heard of Nadia Komenich.

00:01:16.700 And when she won the 1976 Olympics,

00:01:19.460 she was the first person ever to score a perfect 10.

00:01:22.080 And little girls across the country just wanted to do gymnastics, 0.98

00:01:25.460 and I was one of them.

00:01:26.560 And this was just a few years after Title IX.

00:01:29.420 So girls were really just getting into sports for the first time,

00:01:32.640 and we didn't have as many opportunities as there are now.

00:01:35.700 You know, my six-year-old daughter can basically play every sport 1.00

00:01:38.700 that her eight-year-old brother plays, but I didn't have that.

00:01:42.040 You know, there wasn't girls' softball and Little League

00:01:45.440 and soccer wasn't even in America yet.

00:01:47.800 And so gymnastics was like our choice.

00:01:50.660 And so I just loved it.

00:01:52.480 I raced to the gym.

00:01:53.520 Gyms were popping up all over the country. 1.00

00:01:55.540 And I, you know, much like I'm sure you experienced as a swimmer,

00:01:58.800 I showed an aptitude for it from a very young age.

00:02:01.560 And by the time I was 10, I qualified for the elite level,

00:02:04.380 which is the level that you start to compete nationally.

00:02:08.160 Gymnastics, at least at the time, was considered a very young sport.

00:02:11.240 You had a narrow window of opportunity.

00:02:12.720 So by the time I was 10, I was training six, seven hours a day.

00:02:17.720 By the time I was 14, gosh, I was training eight, ten hours a day.

00:02:23.080 It was brutal and punishing.

00:02:25.180 And I ended up being a national team member for seven years,

00:02:28.200 and I was the national champion in 1986.

00:02:30.680 But things went downhill from there.

00:02:33.580 And I really suffered from the abuse of training culture.

00:02:37.180 I had many, many injuries and a serious eating disorder.

00:02:40.380 And I ended up walking away from the sport a few months

00:02:42.900 before the Olympic trials in 1988.

00:02:46.640 And I walked away.

00:02:47.500 This is the sad part.

00:02:48.480 You know, despite all my accomplishments,

00:02:49.860 I walked away pretty broken and ashamed

00:02:53.020 and feeling like I'd actually not achieved much at all.

00:02:57.340 Yeah, I totally understand.

00:02:59.160 And I think that's something that's not talked about enough,

00:03:01.760 especially within athletes,

00:03:03.680 is that kind of disparity feeling when you leave your sport,

00:03:07.860 especially, as you mentioned,

00:03:08.980 when you leave on kind of a note

00:03:10.620 where you know you could have achieved more

00:03:13.660 and you wish you could have achieved more.

00:03:15.800 But following that, you had achieved so much.

00:03:19.580 You know, you were national champion,

00:03:21.060 all-around national champion, all of those things.

00:03:24.440 You enter into the business career.

00:03:26.880 We might be skipping a couple steps in the process.

00:03:28.800 That's all right.

00:03:29.760 You eventually entered into the business world

00:03:31.940 and began working at Levi's Strauss & Company.

00:03:35.820 I did.

00:03:36.160 So tell us about that.

00:03:37.120 Tell us about your rise to how you got to where you were

00:03:40.500 in the executive world.

00:03:42.720 Yeah, I started at Levi's in 1999.

00:03:45.560 It was like my third or fourth job, not my first,

00:03:47.820 but I was still pretty young.

00:03:49.540 You know, I was in my 20s still.

00:03:51.620 I took a level down to work at Levi's from my prior job

00:03:55.520 because I loved the brand so much.

00:03:57.000 I just had worn it since I was a young child.

00:03:59.440 I can't really imagine working in business on a product

00:04:03.620 that I don't wear and use and truly believe in.

00:04:07.760 And so for me, as a reluctant business person,

00:04:10.420 that was never my dream to do that.

00:04:12.440 I wanted to be more of a creative.

00:04:14.400 I wanted to write books and make films,

00:04:16.700 but I needed to support myself.

00:04:18.280 So I took this job in business and, you know, entry level.

00:04:21.780 It was in 1999, early 2000,

00:04:24.200 not the most hospitable environment for women 1.00

00:04:27.440 in corporate America at that point.

00:04:30.740 But I just kept at it, you know,

00:04:32.520 and as I moved up the ranks,

00:04:33.840 I was able to really shape the culture

00:04:36.300 and make it more inclusive

00:04:37.660 and make it more equitable,

00:04:40.740 not just for women, but for everyone.

00:04:42.580 And I'm all the way up the ladder.

00:04:44.020 I became the chief marketing officer in 2013,

00:04:46.140 and I held that job for eight years,

00:04:48.120 which is a ridiculously long period of time

00:04:50.300 to hold that job.

00:04:51.220 Most people keep it for about two.

00:04:52.880 And eventually became the brand president

00:04:55.360 and was next in line for CEO.

00:04:57.680 But that didn't happen for a variety of reasons.

00:05:02.640 Well, actually, for one reason,

00:05:04.320 which I can get into if you want,

00:05:06.560 unless you want to tee it up.

00:05:08.000 Yeah.

00:05:08.660 In March of 2020,

00:05:10.440 I was very outspoken about the harms

00:05:12.740 that would be done to children

00:05:14.060 from prolonged school closures

00:05:15.640 and, you know, other restrictions

00:05:17.460 like no sports and no anything.

00:05:20.020 You know, where I lived in San Francisco,

00:05:21.320 kids really were kept from any activities

00:05:23.800 for close to 18 months.

00:05:26.140 Even playgrounds, outdoor playgrounds,

00:05:27.820 were closed for nine months.

00:05:29.020 And I was very outspoken about this.

00:05:30.780 I have four children,

00:05:32.200 all public school students.

00:05:34.200 And this was a no-no.

00:05:36.220 You weren't supposed to push back

00:05:38.060 on lockdowns or restrictions in any way.

00:05:40.660 You were supposed to just follow the dictates

00:05:43.180 from public health,

00:05:44.940 which in California were more restrictive

00:05:46.660 than anywhere in the country.

00:05:47.740 And I did not accept that.

00:05:49.500 And I spoke out for two years ongoing,

00:05:52.520 despite the fact that I was told

00:05:54.260 I needed to stop.

00:05:55.780 And eventually I was told

00:05:56.900 there was no place for me

00:05:57.920 at the company anymore.

00:05:59.000 But rather than accept their severance

00:06:02.360 and hush money,

00:06:03.440 I quit in a fairly noisy fashion

00:06:05.860 so that I could talk about

00:06:07.300 the silencing of debate and dissent.

00:06:10.940 How much was the hush money

00:06:12.860 that they were offering you?

00:06:14.380 It was $1.2 million.

00:06:17.660 The headlines read one,

00:06:18.820 but it was just about that.

00:06:21.220 Oh my gosh.

00:06:22.480 And so I don't think a lot of people realize this.

00:06:24.920 And I do, of course,

00:06:25.700 because I read your book,

00:06:26.760 which I want to give you a chance

00:06:28.080 to promote at the end of this too,

00:06:29.560 because it's a phenomenal, phenomenal book.

00:06:34.780 But just how brave you are,

00:06:37.120 just how inspiring that is.

00:06:38.940 And I think it speaks so much to you,

00:06:40.940 so much to what you're advocating for,

00:06:42.600 that you were willing to turn down that

00:06:45.080 to be able to speak freely,

00:06:47.540 which majority of people,

00:06:49.740 they would like to do the same thing.

00:06:52.640 They would not do the same thing.

00:06:55.020 Yeah.

00:06:56.380 You know, I think, Riley,

00:06:59.540 much like, probably like you,

00:07:01.980 when I started to speak out,

00:07:04.120 you know, even before I was out

00:07:05.140 to leave the company,

00:07:06.760 I don't think I really thought of it

00:07:08.280 as particularly brave or courageous.

00:07:09.860 I just sort of saw something that was true,

00:07:11.960 that children were going to be harmed.

00:07:13.500 And that was sort of undeniable.

00:07:14.780 And I figured I need to say it.

00:07:16.240 And even if that was controversial in the beginning,

00:07:18.000 I thought that the truth would win out.

00:07:20.320 And that, you know,

00:07:22.940 the truth would ultimately break through

00:07:25.400 and people would see the error of our way.

00:07:27.960 And I had more confidence

00:07:29.300 in people being willing

00:07:32.060 to kind of stand up and say a true thing,

00:07:34.460 even if it's hard.

00:07:35.380 And that eventually there would be enough of us

00:07:38.020 that we would, you know,

00:07:40.960 be a significant cohort of truth speakers

00:07:43.640 and there would have to be a real conversation.

00:07:45.560 But that is not the world we're living in right now,

00:07:47.880 as you well know.

00:07:50.500 And I still believe that truth outs in the end,

00:07:53.480 but I think most people would rather stand

00:07:55.800 with the crowd and stand apart

00:07:57.880 and risk being ostracized

00:07:59.840 and, you know, vilified

00:08:01.880 and called terrible names.

00:08:03.120 And, you know, I've lost, it's, it, look, it's hard.

00:08:05.280 You know, it's hard.

00:08:06.220 I've lost friends.

00:08:07.260 I have fractured family relationships.

00:08:09.080 I lost my job.

00:08:10.440 But to me, there's nothing more fundamental

00:08:12.880 than the search for truth.

00:08:14.860 And if we accept lies as truth,

00:08:16.780 I just, it's, what, what can happen?

00:08:20.860 All manner of cruelty and abuse.

00:08:24.060 I mean, the whole reason we accepted,

00:08:26.940 you know, in the context of COVID,

00:08:28.520 we accepted as truth

00:08:29.500 that everyone was at equal risk,

00:08:31.020 the kids were resilient,

00:08:32.060 they'd be fine

00:08:33.240 even if we locked them

00:08:34.140 in their rooms for 18 months.

00:08:35.740 That's a lie.

00:08:38.220 And we know now that it's a lie.

00:08:41.180 But acceptance of that lie

00:08:43.040 or that untruth

00:08:43.800 is what allowed for the harms to happen.

00:08:47.300 And so I just, you know,

00:08:48.460 the thing for me

00:08:49.300 that is most at risk right now

00:08:51.680 is the ability for us all

00:08:53.960 to have discussions

00:08:54.860 with people we disagree with

00:08:56.300 in the name of getting to truth

00:08:58.600 and not to demonize people

00:09:00.460 we disagree with,

00:09:01.400 but to have these open,

00:09:02.920 fact-based diplomatic discussion.

00:09:04.960 And that's not happening.

00:09:06.460 And the only thing I can think to do

00:09:09.300 to combat that

00:09:10.200 is to continue to do it

00:09:13.560 and to listen to others,

00:09:14.940 to listen to others as well

00:09:16.200 and to try to have those conversations

00:09:17.760 and model that behavior.

00:09:18.880 And I think that's an important piece, right,

00:09:22.040 is to listen to others.

00:09:23.800 It feels like civil discourse,

00:09:26.600 and especially coming

00:09:27.520 from a college campus,

00:09:29.160 we have lost the ability

00:09:31.540 to encourage thinking for yourself,

00:09:34.340 to encourage dialogue,

00:09:35.960 open dialogue.

00:09:37.280 You're right.

00:09:37.700 You're immediately,

00:09:38.440 when you speak out about things

00:09:39.800 that go against the grain,

00:09:41.800 you're immediately labeled

00:09:42.840 a bigot or hateful

00:09:44.760 or uneducated 0.98

00:09:46.480 or a slew 0.99

00:09:47.680 or a grifter

00:09:48.860 or a this or a that.

00:09:50.640 You can't be doing it

00:09:51.920 because it's an honestly held belief

00:09:53.540 because no sane person

00:09:54.760 could think that,

00:09:55.420 so you must be getting paid off

00:09:56.700 on the side.

00:09:57.440 I guarantee you

00:09:58.180 there have been no payoffs.

00:09:59.360 I gave up

00:09:59.780 not just the million dollars,

00:10:02.340 but the future career

00:10:03.800 that I would have had

00:10:04.700 at Levi's as CEO,

00:10:06.360 which is probably

00:10:07.880 a hundred times that.

00:10:12.340 At the very least,

00:10:13.600 it's interesting.

00:10:14.400 I just did a reading

00:10:16.160 and kind of book event

00:10:17.100 in the Chicago area

00:10:18.580 and I had a real life

00:10:20.120 Twitter troll

00:10:21.880 come to the event

00:10:22.940 and she was just screaming at me. 0.97

00:10:24.580 It was like how a troll would act

00:10:26.180 if it was actually a person

00:10:27.260 and she just kept screaming at me 1.00

00:10:28.780 that I was a liar 1.00

00:10:29.860 and a grifter 0.99

00:10:30.380 and I tried to engage

00:10:31.640 and talk with her very calmly

00:10:33.080 and explain that,

00:10:34.080 you know,

00:10:34.660 a grifter misrepresents themselves 0.75

00:10:36.200 so that they can make money

00:10:37.400 and I've done the opposite.

00:10:39.000 And at one point,

00:10:39.700 I mean,

00:10:39.940 it was sort of pointless as you know,

00:10:41.780 but at one point I said,

00:10:42.740 what I would ask of you, ma'am,

00:10:44.400 is that you just assume

00:10:46.000 that my intentions are on it.

00:10:48.680 I might be wrong.

00:10:49.720 From your perspective,

00:10:50.740 I might be wrong,

00:10:51.880 but why do you have to

00:10:53.060 sort of slander me

00:10:54.080 as somebody

00:10:54.800 with dishonest intentions,

00:10:57.380 as a person with no integrity?

00:10:59.280 That's the problem.

00:11:00.580 And then when you smear someone

00:11:01.860 using those names,

00:11:03.100 it ends all conversation.

00:11:04.520 You can't have one.

00:11:05.740 Right?

00:11:06.860 Absolutely.

00:11:07.880 Absolutely.

00:11:08.320 Absolutely it does.

00:11:09.520 So has anyone from Levi's

00:11:10.840 reached out to you

00:11:11.920 in the meantime?

00:11:13.400 Has anyone,

00:11:14.020 you know,

00:11:14.340 reached out and said

00:11:15.120 that they agree with you?

00:11:16.440 Have they reached out

00:11:17.300 and said that you messed up

00:11:18.420 by your decision?

00:11:19.560 What does that look like?

00:11:21.480 No contact with anyone.

00:11:23.940 Wow.

00:11:25.040 That's got to be hard.

00:11:26.680 You must have,

00:11:27.460 you had friends

00:11:28.320 in the position you were in,

00:11:29.500 being there for,

00:11:30.400 you know,

00:11:31.020 almost more than 20 years,

00:11:32.720 actually.

00:11:33.460 Yeah,

00:11:34.040 23 years.

00:11:34.960 I had real friends,

00:11:36.260 you know,

00:11:36.520 I had been to weddings

00:11:38.640 and baby showers

00:11:40.200 and even funerals.

00:11:42.860 I was married there twice.

00:11:45.340 In fact,

00:11:45.760 I had four children,

00:11:46.700 not at the same time.

00:11:48.160 Didn't work out the percent.

00:11:50.080 I had four children.

00:11:51.880 They threw me baby showers.

00:11:53.520 You know,

00:11:53.700 we were in each other's lives.

00:11:54.960 I had so many friends.

00:11:58.740 But no,

00:11:59.640 and I think that

00:12:00.220 the most difficult

00:12:01.180 and most hurtful thing

00:12:02.640 are the people

00:12:04.160 that I considered

00:12:04.900 real friends,

00:12:05.920 not just colleagues

00:12:06.840 that didn't speak up

00:12:09.640 in my defense at all.

00:12:10.740 Even if they disagreed with me,

00:12:12.160 but they didn't speak up

00:12:12.960 just to say,

00:12:13.840 you know what?

00:12:15.380 She has a right to say this.

00:12:16.720 Just like you have a right to say

00:12:18.040 what you believe.

00:12:19.520 No one,

00:12:20.600 not one person,

00:12:21.740 not people I had considered friends

00:12:23.240 for two decades.

00:12:24.880 So that was hard.

00:12:26.880 Yeah,

00:12:27.180 I imagine.

00:12:28.420 And so,

00:12:29.340 and again,

00:12:29.720 you've touched on this briefly,

00:12:31.300 but why do you think

00:12:33.640 they're that scared

00:12:35.060 of losing their job,

00:12:36.320 which you've proven

00:12:37.060 is a very real,

00:12:38.840 legitimate concern?

00:12:40.560 Do you think that's

00:12:41.240 what's driving them

00:12:42.100 into the silence?

00:12:43.940 Well,

00:12:44.140 I think there's a few things.

00:12:45.240 I think while it was happening,

00:12:47.660 you know,

00:12:48.440 yeah,

00:12:48.920 I think they didn't want

00:12:50.100 the taint

00:12:51.560 that I had on me.

00:12:52.660 You know,

00:12:52.760 I was being called everything

00:12:53.820 from a racist

00:12:54.700 to a trumper, 0.97

00:12:56.360 which in San Francisco

00:12:57.160 is like the worst thing

00:12:58.340 you can be called.

00:13:01.180 To,

00:13:01.860 you know,

00:13:02.560 anti-vaxxer,

00:13:03.400 anti-max,

00:13:04.400 a masker,

00:13:05.320 QAnon,

00:13:05.880 conspiracy theory,

00:13:06.900 you know,

00:13:07.140 it just went on

00:13:08.460 and on and on.

00:13:09.460 And that was done,

00:13:10.360 so that happened publicly

00:13:11.660 in like town hall meetings.

00:13:13.260 And so,

00:13:14.220 sure,

00:13:14.480 why would my

00:13:15.240 colleagues and friends

00:13:17.140 want those names

00:13:18.400 attached to them?

00:13:20.020 But I think it goes

00:13:21.040 beyond the work environment

00:13:22.400 to San Francisco

00:13:24.220 as this

00:13:24.960 sort of liberal bat,

00:13:26.400 quote unquote,

00:13:27.520 liberal bastion

00:13:28.460 where everyone agrees,

00:13:29.760 everyone votes the same way.

00:13:31.300 And they really believe

00:13:32.340 anyone that sort of

00:13:33.300 steps outside of that,

00:13:34.540 which is essentially

00:13:35.240 the Democratic Party platform,

00:13:37.520 one that I used to

00:13:38.360 and hear to,

00:13:39.220 if you even ask a question,

00:13:41.360 you are suddenly,

00:13:42.740 you know, 1.00

00:13:44.120 a nutbag, 0.99

00:13:45.060 KKK member. 0.98

00:13:46.900 Like,

00:13:47.140 there's nothing in between,

00:13:48.880 you know.

00:13:50.080 And so,

00:13:50.920 they don't want to endure that.

00:13:52.300 I get it,

00:13:53.280 you know,

00:13:53.520 and for a lot of people,

00:13:54.300 it's not a tenable thing

00:13:55.740 to lose your job.

00:13:57.560 But mostly,

00:13:58.420 I think it's the social

00:13:59.660 ostracizing

00:14:00.580 that people avoid.

00:14:02.100 And look,

00:14:03.300 I'm not going to lie,

00:14:04.140 you know it's hard,

00:14:05.000 I know it's hard.

00:14:07.060 You know,

00:14:07.320 why didn't members

00:14:08.300 of your team

00:14:09.200 who spoke with you

00:14:10.100 quietly

00:14:10.580 about the same issues,

00:14:12.000 why didn't they stand up?

00:14:13.540 It's the same.

00:14:15.180 Right.

00:14:15.880 And I do think

00:14:16.840 since I've left,

00:14:17.720 they've probably been told,

00:14:19.700 do not

00:14:20.180 have any contact

00:14:21.640 with her.

00:14:22.220 Totally.

00:14:23.800 I am certain

00:14:25.900 they have

00:14:26.440 because again,

00:14:27.200 you're right,

00:14:27.680 it's the same tactics

00:14:28.520 they use

00:14:29.040 and I know

00:14:29.700 that's on my end

00:14:31.040 on the app.

00:14:32.520 Just you have

00:14:32.860 women's sports.

00:14:34.260 Yeah.

00:14:34.440 And they are,

00:14:34.900 there's a lot of parallels

00:14:36.000 that go

00:14:37.720 with the situation,

00:14:39.100 whether that's

00:14:40.040 the denying of truth,

00:14:41.460 whether that's

00:14:42.060 the silencing,

00:14:43.180 whether that's,

00:14:43.740 you know,

00:14:44.380 secretly changing

00:14:45.300 the language

00:14:45.860 that we use.

00:14:46.700 I mean,

00:14:46.880 these cultural issues,

00:14:48.780 it should be chilling

00:14:50.240 to a lot of people

00:14:51.320 that you can't even

00:14:52.120 ask a question.

00:14:53.840 So I want to give you

00:14:54.500 an opportunity

00:14:54.980 to talk about your book,

00:14:56.800 Promote Your Book

00:14:57.580 by Zen Button.

00:14:58.840 Again,

00:14:59.300 I read it.

00:14:59.900 It's phenomenal.

00:15:01.960 Let's talk about it.

00:15:03.880 Yeah.

00:15:04.180 Let me say one thing

00:15:05.400 in response

00:15:05.860 to what you just said,

00:15:06.700 though.

00:15:06.940 It should be chilling

00:15:07.880 and I think the thing

00:15:08.660 that's most alarming

00:15:09.520 to me is how many people

00:15:11.080 it is not chilling for.

00:15:13.580 They're fine with it.

00:15:14.520 You know,

00:15:14.720 even after all the revelations

00:15:16.200 about how the government

00:15:17.220 pressured social media platforms

00:15:18.960 to silence and de-platform

00:15:20.420 and censor people

00:15:21.380 as it pertained to COVID

00:15:22.420 and other issues,

00:15:24.000 you know,

00:15:24.860 people that are loyal

00:15:25.860 to party,

00:15:26.860 not principal,

00:15:28.140 are defending it

00:15:29.100 as necessary.

00:15:30.300 You know,

00:15:30.720 and I don't want

00:15:31.480 to malign your generation, 0.93

00:15:33.060 but a lot of young people

00:15:34.180 in particular

00:15:34.960 are sort of defending it

00:15:36.600 and a lot of this

00:15:37.180 did start on college campuses,

00:15:38.580 which you alluded to earlier

00:15:39.940 and now it's kind of oozed

00:15:41.300 into the workplace.

00:15:43.080 As far as the book,

00:15:44.000 it came out a few months ago,

00:15:45.080 it's called Levi's and Button.

00:15:46.060 Thank you for reading it.

00:15:48.080 And it is more than a COVID rant

00:15:52.140 if folks aren't particularly

00:15:53.720 interested in that.

00:15:54.560 It is a memoir

00:15:55.140 and I,

00:15:56.540 you know,

00:15:56.920 hopefully it's an inspiration

00:15:58.340 to people to stand up

00:15:59.580 and speak the truth

00:16:00.400 even if you're afraid

00:16:01.420 because we need you.

00:16:03.020 We can't stand out here

00:16:04.420 by ourselves

00:16:05.600 for this,

00:16:06.840 for all this time.

00:16:08.160 The truth needs to out in the end

00:16:09.680 and you don't have to do it

00:16:12.060 in such a big way

00:16:13.100 like I did.

00:16:13.720 You don't have to blow up your life,

00:16:14.800 but in your everyday life,

00:16:15.740 when you are talking

00:16:17.060 to a friend

00:16:17.680 and they say something

00:16:18.860 that sounds kind of kooky

00:16:19.960 or whatever it is

00:16:21.460 in small ways every day,

00:16:23.120 stand up and ask questions

00:16:24.400 and speak truth

00:16:25.180 when you think something

00:16:26.440 doesn't sound right

00:16:28.400 or smell right.

00:16:29.480 That's really what I'm trying to do

00:16:30.840 is just encourage people

00:16:31.720 to do that.

00:16:33.280 You know,

00:16:33.440 one thing I will add

00:16:34.700 is the day after I quit my job

00:16:36.520 in a very public fashion,

00:16:38.280 three members of the San Francisco

00:16:39.480 School Board were recalled,

00:16:40.940 but in a very decisive manner

00:16:42.460 and they were recalled

00:16:43.360 for not opening the school.

00:16:45.560 That means that most

00:16:46.760 San Francisco residents

00:16:47.820 agreed with me,

00:16:49.300 but they were only comfortable

00:16:50.740 expressing it at the ballot box.

00:16:52.400 But imagine if they'd stood with me

00:16:54.020 and they came to the rallies

00:16:55.220 and they, you know,

00:16:55.960 did not allow for me

00:16:56.960 to be demonized

00:16:57.700 because they stood with me.

00:16:59.860 We would have been a force

00:17:01.000 and the most important thing

00:17:02.420 is the schools would have opened

00:17:03.740 and the children

00:17:04.400 would not have been harmed.

00:17:05.540 And I tell that story

00:17:06.640 because it was such

00:17:08.280 an illustration to me

00:17:09.380 of the fact that people knew,

00:17:10.660 you know,

00:17:12.220 they knew

00:17:12.660 and they were mad about it

00:17:13.660 but they were too afraid

00:17:14.540 to come out of the shadows

00:17:15.520 but they did it

00:17:16.180 in the privacy of the ballot box.

00:17:17.580 But we need you to do it in public

00:17:19.060 because we need your help.

00:17:21.580 Absolutely.

00:17:22.480 It's very true.

00:17:24.840 For the longest time,

00:17:26.320 you know,

00:17:26.520 the first few months

00:17:27.440 when I started speaking out,

00:17:29.080 when I would get

00:17:29.580 these private messages,

00:17:30.900 I was so honored, right?

00:17:32.320 I felt like, you know,

00:17:33.400 we're garnering support

00:17:34.380 but then as it continued,

00:17:36.220 it quickly seeped

00:17:37.760 into frustration.

00:17:38.600 Yeah, I get that

00:17:40.720 from other corporate executives.

00:17:42.960 I get from, you know,

00:17:44.520 CEOs will DM me and say,

00:17:46.460 oh, we stand,

00:17:47.100 because, you know,

00:17:47.460 a lot of what I've started

00:17:48.280 speaking about is

00:17:49.320 how sort of these,

00:17:52.060 the woke ideology

00:17:53.280 is informing corporation

00:17:56.180 when the stances

00:17:57.040 that they take

00:17:57.760 but it's all really a charade

00:17:59.140 and it's a cover

00:18:00.040 for less kind of savory

00:18:03.800 and honest business practices

00:18:05.300 because they're able

00:18:06.080 to sort of wrap themselves

00:18:07.360 in virtue and the press buys it

00:18:08.940 and all these CEOs

00:18:10.160 will write to me

00:18:10.920 and say they stand with me

00:18:12.440 and at first,

00:18:13.080 I was encouraged by that

00:18:14.440 and then I was like,

00:18:15.980 dude, stand up. 0.78

00:18:18.160 You're the CEO.

00:18:19.580 If you can't change

00:18:20.700 the culture in the company

00:18:21.880 that you work in,

00:18:22.760 if you are afraid

00:18:23.500 of your employees,

00:18:24.800 then we have no hope

00:18:25.760 and then they sort of

00:18:26.960 defend it by saying,

00:18:27.940 well, I'm the breadwinner.

00:18:29.040 I can't really take the risk.

00:18:30.720 So was I.

00:18:32.260 It's so inherently sexist

00:18:33.840 to assume that,

00:18:34.700 you know,

00:18:34.900 my salary was secondary

00:18:36.060 didn't really matter.

00:18:37.380 I have been the breadwinner

00:18:38.400 in my family

00:18:39.120 for three decades

00:18:40.660 but you got to do it

00:18:42.720 and I think those

00:18:43.580 in positions of leadership

00:18:44.640 in particular

00:18:45.520 have such an opportunity

00:18:46.880 to make change

00:18:48.240 and inspire others

00:18:49.820 to come forward.

00:18:50.840 So I stopped being

00:18:52.000 grateful for those DMs

00:18:54.060 and I started poking back

00:18:55.680 at them to stand up

00:18:57.640 and be a little braver.

00:18:59.840 Well, I appreciate your stance

00:19:01.520 and you better make

00:19:02.120 inspiration to me

00:19:03.300 throughout this process.

00:19:05.580 But on top of your

00:19:06.700 Levi's Unbutton book,

00:19:07.980 we're going back

00:19:08.560 to the athlete side

00:19:09.520 of Jen Sanker.

00:19:11.020 You also were the author

00:19:12.820 of Chalked Up,

00:19:13.980 which is about your time

00:19:15.080 as a gymnast

00:19:16.100 but also one of the

00:19:18.000 really incredible things

00:19:19.460 that you've done,

00:19:20.000 again,

00:19:20.180 another one of your productions

00:19:21.340 that I have seen

00:19:22.680 and followed

00:19:23.120 is how you produced

00:19:24.500 the Netflix documentary

00:19:25.820 of Athlete A

00:19:26.900 which was a phenomenal

00:19:29.000 documentary on Larry Nassar

00:19:30.740 and the scandal

00:19:31.640 of the USA Gymnastics.

00:19:34.760 Talk about that.

00:19:37.420 Why did you feel compelled

00:19:39.400 to highlight this?

00:19:42.280 And it's just recently

00:19:43.460 become in the news again

00:19:44.480 because we saw

00:19:45.160 where Nassar

00:19:45.700 was just stabbed

00:19:46.640 and presented. 0.98

00:19:48.540 Crazy.

00:19:49.200 I'm surprised, honestly,

00:19:50.200 it didn't happen sooner.

00:19:51.640 Yeah.

00:19:53.440 Well, I wrote the book

00:19:54.560 because I continued

00:19:55.460 to suffer, honestly,

00:19:56.840 and it was really

00:19:57.380 just my attempt

00:19:58.160 to make sense

00:19:58.840 of what had happened,

00:19:59.880 you know,

00:20:00.120 even in my late 30s

00:20:01.480 as a relatively successful

00:20:03.560 and healthy person.

00:20:05.460 If you endure a training

00:20:07.060 that is just rife

00:20:09.220 with cruelty,

00:20:09.700 you're going to have issues

00:20:10.900 with anxiety

00:20:12.160 and self-esteem

00:20:13.140 and, you know,

00:20:14.260 body image

00:20:15.420 and, you know,

00:20:15.880 all of the things

00:20:16.540 that continued

00:20:17.160 to sort of haunt me

00:20:18.880 and I wanted

00:20:19.340 to make sense of it.

00:20:21.400 I didn't know

00:20:22.100 if I could get

00:20:22.500 the book published.

00:20:23.200 I did

00:20:23.700 and it was,

00:20:26.160 the world was not ready.

00:20:27.600 That was like

00:20:28.100 the first time

00:20:28.940 the internet came for me.

00:20:30.600 This was before me too

00:20:31.860 and so, you know,

00:20:32.700 saying the things

00:20:33.400 that I said

00:20:33.940 that the sport

00:20:34.440 was rife

00:20:34.860 with physical,

00:20:35.460 emotional,

00:20:35.940 and sexual abuse,

00:20:37.020 it was like, 1.00

00:20:38.220 she's a liar, 1.00

00:20:39.240 she's a griptor 1.00

00:20:39.880 and even the people

00:20:40.500 I trained with

00:20:41.220 sort of like

00:20:41.740 what, you know,

00:20:42.600 you have dealt with

00:20:43.460 would not

00:20:44.520 stand up

00:20:46.240 and say anything

00:20:46.940 and in fact

00:20:47.500 came after me

00:20:48.780 and called me a liar

00:20:49.820 because the image

00:20:50.740 of the sport

00:20:51.280 is one of the cute

00:20:52.640 little pixies

00:20:53.380 dancing around

00:20:54.140 and everybody upheld that

00:20:55.340 because the leadership,

00:20:57.460 USAG, USOC

00:20:58.680 and the coaches

00:20:59.840 sort of insisted on it

00:21:01.480 and these girls, 1.00

00:21:02.240 even as grown women

00:21:03.100 were still chasing

00:21:03.880 the approval

00:21:04.460 of their coaches

00:21:05.220 in this really

00:21:06.040 totally bizarre way

00:21:07.180 but eventually

00:21:08.180 the truth came out

00:21:09.220 in 2016

00:21:10.120 when the Nassar story broke

00:21:11.500 and I held that close to me

00:21:13.160 when I was speaking out

00:21:14.100 about COVID.

00:21:14.780 I just got the timing

00:21:15.720 you know,

00:21:16.620 I forgot that it took

00:21:17.600 10 years

00:21:18.320 in gymnastics

00:21:20.260 and I kept thinking

00:21:21.200 it's so obvious

00:21:22.040 with COVID and kids

00:21:23.060 that it's going to

00:21:23.580 break through sooner

00:21:24.420 but I think it will

00:21:25.720 I just think it's

00:21:26.580 probably a decade

00:21:27.460 I don't think it's

00:21:28.300 a two or three year process

00:21:29.640 you know.

00:21:32.060 So once Nassar

00:21:33.940 was convicted

00:21:34.520 and went to prison

00:21:35.360 because I'd been

00:21:36.220 one of the first people

00:21:37.060 to speak

00:21:37.580 or I was actually

00:21:38.580 the first person

00:21:39.680 to write about

00:21:41.440 in a first person

00:21:42.600 I count the abuse

00:21:43.340 in the sport

00:21:43.780 I came to know

00:21:45.700 many of the victims

00:21:47.160 the survivors

00:21:47.900 and I just felt like

00:21:49.320 this could be a movie

00:21:50.900 I didn't really know

00:21:51.560 how to make one

00:21:52.200 but I thought

00:21:52.700 well I can figure it out

00:21:53.780 I knew I couldn't direct it

00:21:55.620 but I wrote the story

00:21:57.240 and I found directors

00:21:58.320 a couple directed it

00:22:00.540 and I got all the folks

00:22:01.820 to agree to be in it

00:22:02.820 and you know

00:22:03.600 they were nervous

00:22:04.360 they were plastered

00:22:05.660 all over the news

00:22:06.380 and didn't always feel

00:22:07.200 well represented

00:22:07.940 but they trusted me

00:22:09.100 so you know

00:22:10.260 they agreed to do it

00:22:11.380 and it came out

00:22:13.560 I mean it's amazing

00:22:14.480 it won an Emmy

00:22:15.080 for best investigative

00:22:16.120 documentary

00:22:16.740 I'm really proud of it

00:22:17.840 and I think

00:22:18.260 the thing that was

00:22:19.080 important to me

00:22:20.000 was that it wasn't

00:22:20.800 just an expose

00:22:21.600 about Nassar

00:22:22.600 but that it connected

00:22:23.720 his behaviors

00:22:25.400 with the broader culture

00:22:27.500 of abuse in the sport

00:22:28.960 which primes girls 0.99

00:22:31.080 frankly

00:22:31.600 to walk into his office 0.99

00:22:33.000 and be abused 0.98

00:22:33.740 because if you're already

00:22:34.640 experiencing emotional

00:22:35.760 and physical abuse

00:22:37.020 you're not really

00:22:38.180 in a position

00:22:38.680 to stand up for yourself

00:22:39.880 when something's off

00:22:41.040 so that was my goal

00:22:42.820 yeah

00:22:43.940 you can't recognize

00:22:45.040 that sometimes

00:22:45.760 as it's happening

00:22:46.720 which is

00:22:47.400 yeah

00:22:47.620 relating it to

00:22:49.160 to what we went through

00:22:50.560 right

00:22:51.200 when we were sharing

00:22:52.160 that locker room

00:22:52.760 with Thomas

00:22:53.220 I don't think we saw

00:22:54.460 it as sexual harassment

00:22:55.720 at least myself

00:22:57.200 until a year later

00:22:58.280 and I really realized

00:22:59.660 what they put us through

00:23:01.720 what we were exposed to

00:23:03.660 it's like

00:23:04.060 hold on

00:23:04.660 well it's so

00:23:06.000 criminal

00:23:06.980 well it's so disorienting

00:23:08.920 the reason you didn't realize

00:23:09.940 it is because they told you

00:23:10.880 it wasn't

00:23:11.600 and so

00:23:12.080 you know

00:23:12.540 this is what

00:23:12.960 I talk about this

00:23:14.040 in the film

00:23:14.600 in Athlete Day

00:23:15.160 I appear in it

00:23:15.800 a little bit

00:23:16.420 and as like

00:23:17.020 the voice of history

00:23:17.960 and I

00:23:19.080 you know

00:23:19.580 I talk about

00:23:20.200 in my training environment

00:23:21.340 how you know

00:23:21.860 I was training

00:23:22.320 on a broken ankle

00:23:23.220 and I was

00:23:24.140 you know

00:23:24.800 in pain

00:23:25.440 and they were telling me

00:23:26.260 I was just a lazy 1.00

00:23:27.000 piece of garbage 1.00

00:23:27.780 I was starving 1.00

00:23:28.880 because I ate

00:23:29.480 200 calories a day

00:23:30.720 400 calories a day

00:23:32.120 and they told me

00:23:32.900 I was you know 1.00

00:23:34.000 a fat pig 0.99

00:23:35.360 and so 0.99

00:23:35.940 the way it was

00:23:36.820 eventually explained to me

00:23:38.000 when I was you know

00:23:39.180 probably close to 40

00:23:40.540 by my therapist

00:23:41.680 is you know

00:23:42.320 when a mother

00:23:42.800 or a parent

00:23:43.840 abuses a child

00:23:44.820 they say

00:23:45.200 I wouldn't have to do this to you

00:23:46.680 if you weren't bad

00:23:47.600 so it becomes your fault

00:23:49.220 and that's kind of

00:23:50.560 what happened to me

00:23:51.280 and so they're telling you

00:23:52.820 you're being overly sensitive

00:23:54.440 you're being transphobic

00:23:55.900 you're being x y or z

00:23:57.420 and so you put your own

00:23:58.600 feeling of discomfort aside

00:24:00.640 and it's incredibly disorienting

00:24:02.680 because then you can't trust

00:24:03.900 your own perception of reality

00:24:05.440 no

00:24:06.740 but eventually

00:24:07.740 reality breaks through

00:24:09.040 thank goodness

00:24:09.840 and you're like

00:24:10.460 wait a minute

00:24:11.020 that was abuse

00:24:12.500 and in any other context

00:24:14.600 before any of this happened

00:24:16.360 back in 2018

00:24:17.460 at the height of Me Too

00:24:18.700 anybody would have endorsed

00:24:20.020 that view

00:24:20.700 right

00:24:22.440 that that was

00:24:23.280 sure

00:24:24.060 yeah

00:24:24.540 it's

00:24:26.500 it's

00:24:26.980 it's

00:24:27.000 it's

00:24:27.100 and I think

00:24:29.700 it was a huge

00:24:31.040 piece of why

00:24:31.940 it all got expedited

00:24:33.100 and it was interesting

00:24:34.580 it's like this time period

00:24:36.880 where we essentially paused

00:24:38.740 where people

00:24:39.860 had time

00:24:40.980 to get together

00:24:41.800 come up with these

00:24:42.640 mastermind plans

00:24:43.880 of

00:24:44.500 how to really control

00:24:46.700 us

00:24:47.560 and it's worked

00:24:48.900 which is

00:24:49.760 again chilling

00:24:50.620 and they are able

00:24:51.820 and they were able

00:24:53.280 to do it by

00:24:54.160 saying these lies

00:24:55.540 are true

00:24:56.180 yeah

00:24:57.220 everyone is at equal risk

00:24:58.660 children are super spreaders

00:25:00.620 children are resilient

00:25:01.760 they'll be fine

00:25:02.440 if we lock them inside

00:25:03.580 for 18 months

00:25:04.740 like all these things

00:25:05.860 were predicated

00:25:06.660 on lies

00:25:07.520 which is why

00:25:09.040 it's so insidious

00:25:10.040 and we can't allow it

00:25:11.720 yeah

00:25:13.460 we can't

00:25:14.740 no

00:25:15.060 tell us what you're doing

00:25:16.240 now

00:25:16.520 how are you

00:25:18.240 continuing to move forward

00:25:19.440 I know

00:25:19.940 I just saw you

00:25:20.840 at the icons conference

00:25:22.240 which was phenomenal

00:25:23.300 you did amazing

00:25:24.480 everyone loved you

00:25:25.520 what a collection

00:25:27.900 of women

00:25:28.700 and men

00:25:29.620 showed up for that

00:25:31.480 I think it was

00:25:32.100 a really remarkable

00:25:33.060 I think that

00:25:34.840 a lot of the talks

00:25:35.760 are available online

00:25:36.600 I'm not sure

00:25:37.080 if they are

00:25:37.600 or they will be

00:25:38.280 but a remarkable

00:25:39.920 collection of

00:25:41.260 academics

00:25:41.980 and activists

00:25:43.160 female athletes 0.99

00:25:44.460 kudos to them

00:25:46.600 for pulling that

00:25:47.180 group together

00:25:47.860 so I do that

00:25:49.620 I speak some

00:25:50.460 and continue to

00:25:51.340 speak out about

00:25:52.500 the things that matter

00:25:53.320 to me

00:25:53.680 specifically as it

00:25:54.620 pertains to children

00:25:55.640 you know

00:25:57.080 that's my

00:25:57.620 you know

00:25:57.900 I wish

00:25:58.360 as a young child

00:25:59.300 in an abusive

00:25:59.960 training culture

00:26:00.680 somebody had

00:26:01.360 spoken up for me

00:26:02.520 I think

00:26:02.900 children are the

00:26:03.940 most vulnerable

00:26:04.580 among us

00:26:05.240 they don't really

00:26:06.000 have a voice

00:26:06.580 they can't vote

00:26:07.380 and they will do

00:26:08.560 what is expected

00:26:10.060 of them

00:26:10.460 especially young girls

00:26:11.560 I think

00:26:12.100 so we have to be

00:26:14.620 very careful

00:26:15.240 like they might

00:26:15.980 agree to things

00:26:16.980 that are not

00:26:18.060 in their best interest

00:26:19.100 you know

00:26:19.780 and we as adults

00:26:20.560 could assume

00:26:21.100 that that sort of

00:26:21.840 tacit agreement

00:26:22.580 means they're okay

00:26:23.340 and it doesn't

00:26:24.240 I never complained

00:26:25.580 in the gym

00:26:26.280 never

00:26:26.940 but that doesn't

00:26:28.960 mean I was okay

00:26:29.760 you know

00:26:30.340 the other thing

00:26:31.900 I'm doing is

00:26:32.300 I'm making a second

00:26:33.180 documentary film

00:26:34.060 about the harms

00:26:35.240 to children

00:26:35.880 from the prolonged

00:26:36.660 school closures

00:26:37.380 and we've pretty

00:26:38.180 much finished

00:26:38.780 filming and we're

00:26:39.440 in the editing

00:26:39.940 phase

00:26:40.440 it's called

00:26:40.860 Generation COVID

00:26:41.780 oh amazing

00:26:43.720 oh my gosh

00:26:44.440 well do we know

00:26:45.280 where we can find

00:26:45.980 it once it's

00:26:46.620 released

00:26:46.960 not yet

00:26:48.660 it's a tad

00:26:49.400 controversial

00:26:50.160 as you might

00:26:51.160 fathom

00:26:51.780 as you might

00:26:52.360 imagine

00:26:52.840 so

00:26:53.280 you know

00:26:55.380 we're gonna

00:26:55.820 we're gonna

00:26:56.340 start looking

00:26:56.780 for distribution

00:26:57.460 soon

00:26:57.900 but I imagine

00:26:58.500 that'll be a bit

00:26:59.300 of a challenge

00:27:00.360 I think

00:27:00.960 not everybody

00:27:01.620 you know

00:27:02.200 there is this

00:27:02.720 widespread acceptance

00:27:03.720 that what we did

00:27:04.660 to kids

00:27:05.120 was not only

00:27:06.060 unnecessary

00:27:06.640 but harmful

00:27:07.580 but there is no

00:27:08.740 it's still a very

00:27:10.000 controversial thing

00:27:10.900 to talk about

00:27:11.680 because you can't

00:27:12.560 really talk about

00:27:13.280 without assigning

00:27:14.040 some blame

00:27:15.320 and nobody

00:27:16.080 wants to do that

00:27:16.920 they want to say

00:27:17.500 this thing happened

00:27:18.280 and it was

00:27:18.720 because of COVID

00:27:19.280 not because it

00:27:19.940 was a terrible

00:27:20.560 harmful policy choice

00:27:22.260 absolutely

00:27:23.800 well when you

00:27:24.540 know

00:27:24.880 you let me

00:27:25.740 know

00:27:26.080 and I will

00:27:26.680 blast it 0.92

00:27:27.180 everywhere

00:27:27.560 because that

00:27:28.240 makes sense

00:27:28.880 how can people

00:27:30.520 follow you

00:27:31.200 I'm still

00:27:34.020 tweeting

00:27:34.480 despite the fact

00:27:35.480 that it got me

00:27:36.300 pushed out of my

00:27:37.720 job

00:27:38.140 I do keep

00:27:39.560 a subset

00:27:40.020 so if anyone

00:27:41.360 follows there

00:27:42.420 just my name

00:27:43.220 and it's all

00:27:45.280 on my own

00:27:45.800 website

00:27:46.160 sayeverything.com

00:27:47.300 amazing

00:27:48.680 well we thank

00:27:49.700 you for coming

00:27:50.400 on and we

00:27:51.100 thank you for

00:27:51.660 being a trailblazer

00:27:52.920 in so many

00:27:54.960 different realms

00:27:55.880 of this crazy

00:27:57.900 life that we're

00:27:58.940 living

00:27:59.200 back at you

00:28:00.760 Riley

00:28:01.080 thanks for tuning

00:28:03.240 in to the

00:28:03.640 games for girls

00:28:04.180 podcast

00:28:04.840 you can download

00:28:05.740 and subscribe

00:28:06.300 anywhere where

00:28:06.980 you get your

00:28:07.320 podcasts

00:28:07.920 apple spotify

00:28:09.560 make sure you

00:28:10.800 go to outkick.com

00:28:11.840 we will see you

00:28:12.820 next week

00:28:13.300 you

Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - September 06, 2023

RILEY GAINES PODCAST： Speak the Truth, Even if Afraid： The Jennifer Sey Story

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