Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - September 06, 2023


RILEY GAINES PODCAST： Speak the Truth, Even if Afraid： The Jennifer Sey Story


Episode Stats

Length

28 minutes

Words per Minute

181.6153

Word Count

5,127

Sentence Count

233

Misogynist Sentences

8

Hate Speech Sentences

8


Summary

In this episode of the Games For Girls podcast, we are talking to someone who knows firsthand what it means to be canceled through this crazy cancel culture that we live in, but also someone who s seen firsthand the corruption within athletics. Jennifer Say talks about her athletic career, how she got into the business world, and what it s like being a woman in a male-dominated industry.


Transcript

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00:00:30.000 Welcome back to the Games for Girls podcast.
00:00:35.460 Today we are talking to someone who knows firsthand what it means to be canceled
00:00:39.920 through this crazy cancel culture that we live in,
00:00:42.520 but also someone who's seen firsthand the corruption within athletics.
00:00:46.920 Here's the interview with Jennifer Say.
00:00:50.160 So Jen, I am so excited that you're on.
00:00:53.500 Would you start by telling us a little bit about your athletic career?
00:00:58.060 Because you are phenomenal.
00:01:00.260 You are so well-accomplished.
00:01:02.160 Let's hear about it.
00:01:03.600 Sure, yeah.
00:01:05.000 I'm a little older than you.
00:01:06.580 My athletic career was back in the 80s.
00:01:09.220 I started gymnastics actually in the 70s.
00:01:12.700 Most of your listeners have probably heard of Nadia Komenich.
00:01:16.700 And when she won the 1976 Olympics,
00:01:19.460 she was the first person ever to score a perfect 10.
00:01:22.080 And little girls across the country just wanted to do gymnastics,
00:01:25.460 and I was one of them.
00:01:26.560 And this was just a few years after Title IX.
00:01:29.420 So girls were really just getting into sports for the first time,
00:01:32.640 and we didn't have as many opportunities as there are now.
00:01:35.700 You know, my six-year-old daughter can basically play every sport
00:01:38.700 that her eight-year-old brother plays, but I didn't have that.
00:01:42.040 You know, there wasn't girls' softball and Little League
00:01:45.440 and soccer wasn't even in America yet.
00:01:47.800 And so gymnastics was like our choice.
00:01:50.660 And so I just loved it.
00:01:52.480 I raced to the gym.
00:01:53.520 Gyms were popping up all over the country.
00:01:55.540 And I, you know, much like I'm sure you experienced as a swimmer,
00:01:58.800 I showed an aptitude for it from a very young age.
00:02:01.560 And by the time I was 10, I qualified for the elite level,
00:02:04.380 which is the level that you start to compete nationally.
00:02:08.160 Gymnastics, at least at the time, was considered a very young sport.
00:02:11.240 You had a narrow window of opportunity.
00:02:12.720 So by the time I was 10, I was training six, seven hours a day.
00:02:17.720 By the time I was 14, gosh, I was training eight, ten hours a day.
00:02:23.080 It was brutal and punishing.
00:02:25.180 And I ended up being a national team member for seven years,
00:02:28.200 and I was the national champion in 1986.
00:02:30.680 But things went downhill from there.
00:02:33.580 And I really suffered from the abuse of training culture.
00:02:37.180 I had many, many injuries and a serious eating disorder.
00:02:40.380 And I ended up walking away from the sport a few months
00:02:42.900 before the Olympic trials in 1988.
00:02:46.640 And I walked away.
00:02:47.500 This is the sad part.
00:02:48.480 You know, despite all my accomplishments,
00:02:49.860 I walked away pretty broken and ashamed
00:02:53.020 and feeling like I'd actually not achieved much at all.
00:02:57.340 Yeah, I totally understand.
00:02:59.160 And I think that's something that's not talked about enough,
00:03:01.760 especially within athletes,
00:03:03.680 is that kind of disparity feeling when you leave your sport,
00:03:07.860 especially, as you mentioned,
00:03:08.980 when you leave on kind of a note
00:03:10.620 where you know you could have achieved more
00:03:13.660 and you wish you could have achieved more.
00:03:15.800 But following that, you had achieved so much.
00:03:19.580 You know, you were national champion,
00:03:21.060 all-around national champion, all of those things.
00:03:24.440 You enter into the business career.
00:03:26.880 We might be skipping a couple steps in the process.
00:03:28.800 That's all right.
00:03:29.760 You eventually entered into the business world
00:03:31.940 and began working at Levi's Strauss & Company.
00:03:35.820 I did.
00:03:36.160 So tell us about that.
00:03:37.120 Tell us about your rise to how you got to where you were
00:03:40.500 in the executive world.
00:03:42.720 Yeah, I started at Levi's in 1999.
00:03:45.560 It was like my third or fourth job, not my first,
00:03:47.820 but I was still pretty young.
00:03:49.540 You know, I was in my 20s still.
00:03:51.620 I took a level down to work at Levi's from my prior job
00:03:55.520 because I loved the brand so much.
00:03:57.000 I just had worn it since I was a young child.
00:03:59.440 I can't really imagine working in business on a product
00:04:03.620 that I don't wear and use and truly believe in.
00:04:07.760 And so for me, as a reluctant business person,
00:04:10.420 that was never my dream to do that.
00:04:12.440 I wanted to be more of a creative.
00:04:14.400 I wanted to write books and make films,
00:04:16.700 but I needed to support myself.
00:04:18.280 So I took this job in business and, you know, entry level.
00:04:21.780 It was in 1999, early 2000,
00:04:24.200 not the most hospitable environment for women
00:04:27.440 in corporate America at that point.
00:04:30.740 But I just kept at it, you know,
00:04:32.520 and as I moved up the ranks,
00:04:33.840 I was able to really shape the culture
00:04:36.300 and make it more inclusive
00:04:37.660 and make it more equitable,
00:04:40.740 not just for women, but for everyone.
00:04:42.580 And I'm all the way up the ladder.
00:04:44.020 I became the chief marketing officer in 2013,
00:04:46.140 and I held that job for eight years,
00:04:48.120 which is a ridiculously long period of time
00:04:50.300 to hold that job.
00:04:51.220 Most people keep it for about two.
00:04:52.880 And eventually became the brand president
00:04:55.360 and was next in line for CEO.
00:04:57.680 But that didn't happen for a variety of reasons.
00:05:02.640 Well, actually, for one reason,
00:05:04.320 which I can get into if you want,
00:05:06.560 unless you want to tee it up.
00:05:08.000 Yeah.
00:05:08.660 In March of 2020,
00:05:10.440 I was very outspoken about the harms
00:05:12.740 that would be done to children
00:05:14.060 from prolonged school closures
00:05:15.640 and, you know, other restrictions
00:05:17.460 like no sports and no anything.
00:05:20.020 You know, where I lived in San Francisco,
00:05:21.320 kids really were kept from any activities
00:05:23.800 for close to 18 months.
00:05:26.140 Even playgrounds, outdoor playgrounds,
00:05:27.820 were closed for nine months.
00:05:29.020 And I was very outspoken about this.
00:05:30.780 I have four children,
00:05:32.200 all public school students.
00:05:34.200 And this was a no-no.
00:05:36.220 You weren't supposed to push back
00:05:38.060 on lockdowns or restrictions in any way.
00:05:40.660 You were supposed to just follow the dictates
00:05:43.180 from public health,
00:05:44.940 which in California were more restrictive
00:05:46.660 than anywhere in the country.
00:05:47.740 And I did not accept that.
00:05:49.500 And I spoke out for two years ongoing,
00:05:52.520 despite the fact that I was told
00:05:54.260 I needed to stop.
00:05:55.780 And eventually I was told
00:05:56.900 there was no place for me
00:05:57.920 at the company anymore.
00:05:59.000 But rather than accept their severance
00:06:02.360 and hush money,
00:06:03.440 I quit in a fairly noisy fashion
00:06:05.860 so that I could talk about
00:06:07.300 the silencing of debate and dissent.
00:06:10.940 How much was the hush money
00:06:12.860 that they were offering you?
00:06:14.380 It was $1.2 million.
00:06:17.660 The headlines read one,
00:06:18.820 but it was just about that.
00:06:21.220 Oh my gosh.
00:06:22.480 And so I don't think a lot of people realize this.
00:06:24.920 And I do, of course,
00:06:25.700 because I read your book,
00:06:26.760 which I want to give you a chance
00:06:28.080 to promote at the end of this too,
00:06:29.560 because it's a phenomenal, phenomenal book.
00:06:34.780 But just how brave you are,
00:06:37.120 just how inspiring that is.
00:06:38.940 And I think it speaks so much to you,
00:06:40.940 so much to what you're advocating for,
00:06:42.600 that you were willing to turn down that
00:06:45.080 to be able to speak freely,
00:06:47.540 which majority of people,
00:06:49.740 they would like to do the same thing.
00:06:52.640 They would not do the same thing.
00:06:55.020 Yeah.
00:06:56.380 You know, I think, Riley,
00:06:59.540 much like, probably like you,
00:07:01.980 when I started to speak out,
00:07:04.120 you know, even before I was out
00:07:05.140 to leave the company,
00:07:06.760 I don't think I really thought of it
00:07:08.280 as particularly brave or courageous.
00:07:09.860 I just sort of saw something that was true,
00:07:11.960 that children were going to be harmed.
00:07:13.500 And that was sort of undeniable.
00:07:14.780 And I figured I need to say it.
00:07:16.240 And even if that was controversial in the beginning,
00:07:18.000 I thought that the truth would win out.
00:07:20.320 And that, you know,
00:07:22.940 the truth would ultimately break through
00:07:25.400 and people would see the error of our way.
00:07:27.960 And I had more confidence
00:07:29.300 in people being willing
00:07:32.060 to kind of stand up and say a true thing,
00:07:34.460 even if it's hard.
00:07:35.380 And that eventually there would be enough of us
00:07:38.020 that we would, you know,
00:07:40.960 be a significant cohort of truth speakers
00:07:43.640 and there would have to be a real conversation.
00:07:45.560 But that is not the world we're living in right now,
00:07:47.880 as you well know.
00:07:50.500 And I still believe that truth outs in the end,
00:07:53.480 but I think most people would rather stand
00:07:55.800 with the crowd and stand apart
00:07:57.880 and risk being ostracized
00:07:59.840 and, you know, vilified
00:08:01.880 and called terrible names.
00:08:03.120 And, you know, I've lost, it's, it, look, it's hard.
00:08:05.280 You know, it's hard.
00:08:06.220 I've lost friends.
00:08:07.260 I have fractured family relationships.
00:08:09.080 I lost my job.
00:08:10.440 But to me, there's nothing more fundamental
00:08:12.880 than the search for truth.
00:08:14.860 And if we accept lies as truth,
00:08:16.780 I just, it's, what, what can happen?
00:08:20.860 All manner of cruelty and abuse.
00:08:24.060 I mean, the whole reason we accepted,
00:08:26.940 you know, in the context of COVID,
00:08:28.520 we accepted as truth
00:08:29.500 that everyone was at equal risk,
00:08:31.020 the kids were resilient,
00:08:32.060 they'd be fine
00:08:33.240 even if we locked them
00:08:34.140 in their rooms for 18 months.
00:08:35.740 That's a lie.
00:08:38.220 And we know now that it's a lie.
00:08:41.180 But acceptance of that lie
00:08:43.040 or that untruth
00:08:43.800 is what allowed for the harms to happen.
00:08:47.300 And so I just, you know,
00:08:48.460 the thing for me
00:08:49.300 that is most at risk right now
00:08:51.680 is the ability for us all
00:08:53.960 to have discussions
00:08:54.860 with people we disagree with
00:08:56.300 in the name of getting to truth
00:08:58.600 and not to demonize people
00:09:00.460 we disagree with,
00:09:01.400 but to have these open,
00:09:02.920 fact-based diplomatic discussion.
00:09:04.960 And that's not happening.
00:09:06.460 And the only thing I can think to do
00:09:09.300 to combat that
00:09:10.200 is to continue to do it
00:09:13.560 and to listen to others,
00:09:14.940 to listen to others as well
00:09:16.200 and to try to have those conversations
00:09:17.760 and model that behavior.
00:09:18.880 And I think that's an important piece, right,
00:09:22.040 is to listen to others.
00:09:23.800 It feels like civil discourse,
00:09:26.600 and especially coming
00:09:27.520 from a college campus,
00:09:29.160 we have lost the ability
00:09:31.540 to encourage thinking for yourself,
00:09:34.340 to encourage dialogue,
00:09:35.960 open dialogue.
00:09:37.280 You're right.
00:09:37.700 You're immediately,
00:09:38.440 when you speak out about things
00:09:39.800 that go against the grain,
00:09:41.800 you're immediately labeled
00:09:42.840 a bigot or hateful
00:09:44.760 or uneducated
00:09:46.480 or a slew
00:09:47.680 or a grifter
00:09:48.860 or a this or a that.
00:09:50.640 You can't be doing it
00:09:51.920 because it's an honestly held belief
00:09:53.540 because no sane person
00:09:54.760 could think that,
00:09:55.420 so you must be getting paid off
00:09:56.700 on the side.
00:09:57.440 I guarantee you
00:09:58.180 there have been no payoffs.
00:09:59.360 I gave up
00:09:59.780 not just the million dollars,
00:10:02.340 but the future career
00:10:03.800 that I would have had
00:10:04.700 at Levi's as CEO,
00:10:06.360 which is probably
00:10:07.880 a hundred times that.
00:10:12.340 At the very least,
00:10:13.600 it's interesting.
00:10:14.400 I just did a reading
00:10:16.160 and kind of book event
00:10:17.100 in the Chicago area
00:10:18.580 and I had a real life
00:10:20.120 Twitter troll
00:10:21.880 come to the event
00:10:22.940 and she was just screaming at me.
00:10:24.580 It was like how a troll would act
00:10:26.180 if it was actually a person
00:10:27.260 and she just kept screaming at me
00:10:28.780 that I was a liar
00:10:29.860 and a grifter
00:10:30.380 and I tried to engage
00:10:31.640 and talk with her very calmly
00:10:33.080 and explain that,
00:10:34.080 you know,
00:10:34.660 a grifter misrepresents themselves
00:10:36.200 so that they can make money
00:10:37.400 and I've done the opposite.
00:10:39.000 And at one point,
00:10:39.700 I mean,
00:10:39.940 it was sort of pointless as you know,
00:10:41.780 but at one point I said,
00:10:42.740 what I would ask of you, ma'am,
00:10:44.400 is that you just assume
00:10:46.000 that my intentions are on it.
00:10:48.680 I might be wrong.
00:10:49.720 From your perspective,
00:10:50.740 I might be wrong,
00:10:51.880 but why do you have to
00:10:53.060 sort of slander me
00:10:54.080 as somebody
00:10:54.800 with dishonest intentions,
00:10:57.380 as a person with no integrity?
00:10:59.280 That's the problem.
00:11:00.580 And then when you smear someone
00:11:01.860 using those names,
00:11:03.100 it ends all conversation.
00:11:04.520 You can't have one.
00:11:05.740 Right?
00:11:06.860 Absolutely.
00:11:07.880 Absolutely.
00:11:08.320 Absolutely it does.
00:11:09.520 So has anyone from Levi's
00:11:10.840 reached out to you
00:11:11.920 in the meantime?
00:11:13.400 Has anyone,
00:11:14.020 you know,
00:11:14.340 reached out and said
00:11:15.120 that they agree with you?
00:11:16.440 Have they reached out
00:11:17.300 and said that you messed up
00:11:18.420 by your decision?
00:11:19.560 What does that look like?
00:11:21.480 No contact with anyone.
00:11:23.940 Wow.
00:11:25.040 That's got to be hard.
00:11:26.680 You must have,
00:11:27.460 you had friends
00:11:28.320 in the position you were in,
00:11:29.500 being there for,
00:11:30.400 you know,
00:11:31.020 almost more than 20 years,
00:11:32.720 actually.
00:11:33.460 Yeah,
00:11:34.040 23 years.
00:11:34.960 I had real friends,
00:11:36.260 you know,
00:11:36.520 I had been to weddings
00:11:38.640 and baby showers
00:11:40.200 and even funerals.
00:11:42.860 I was married there twice.
00:11:45.340 In fact,
00:11:45.760 I had four children,
00:11:46.700 not at the same time.
00:11:48.160 Didn't work out the percent.
00:11:50.080 I had four children.
00:11:51.880 They threw me baby showers.
00:11:53.520 You know,
00:11:53.700 we were in each other's lives.
00:11:54.960 I had so many friends.
00:11:58.740 But no,
00:11:59.640 and I think that
00:12:00.220 the most difficult
00:12:01.180 and most hurtful thing
00:12:02.640 are the people
00:12:04.160 that I considered
00:12:04.900 real friends,
00:12:05.920 not just colleagues
00:12:06.840 that didn't speak up
00:12:09.640 in my defense at all.
00:12:10.740 Even if they disagreed with me,
00:12:12.160 but they didn't speak up
00:12:12.960 just to say,
00:12:13.840 you know what?
00:12:15.380 She has a right to say this.
00:12:16.720 Just like you have a right to say
00:12:18.040 what you believe.
00:12:19.520 No one,
00:12:20.600 not one person,
00:12:21.740 not people I had considered friends
00:12:23.240 for two decades.
00:12:24.880 So that was hard.
00:12:26.880 Yeah,
00:12:27.180 I imagine.
00:12:28.420 And so,
00:12:29.340 and again,
00:12:29.720 you've touched on this briefly,
00:12:31.300 but why do you think
00:12:33.640 they're that scared
00:12:35.060 of losing their job,
00:12:36.320 which you've proven
00:12:37.060 is a very real,
00:12:38.840 legitimate concern?
00:12:40.560 Do you think that's
00:12:41.240 what's driving them
00:12:42.100 into the silence?
00:12:43.940 Well,
00:12:44.140 I think there's a few things.
00:12:45.240 I think while it was happening,
00:12:47.660 you know,
00:12:48.440 yeah,
00:12:48.920 I think they didn't want
00:12:50.100 the taint
00:12:51.560 that I had on me.
00:12:52.660 You know,
00:12:52.760 I was being called everything
00:12:53.820 from a racist
00:12:54.700 to a trumper,
00:12:56.360 which in San Francisco
00:12:57.160 is like the worst thing
00:12:58.340 you can be called.
00:13:01.180 To,
00:13:01.860 you know,
00:13:02.560 anti-vaxxer,
00:13:03.400 anti-max,
00:13:04.400 a masker,
00:13:05.320 QAnon,
00:13:05.880 conspiracy theory,
00:13:06.900 you know,
00:13:07.140 it just went on
00:13:08.460 and on and on.
00:13:09.460 And that was done,
00:13:10.360 so that happened publicly
00:13:11.660 in like town hall meetings.
00:13:13.260 And so,
00:13:14.220 sure,
00:13:14.480 why would my
00:13:15.240 colleagues and friends
00:13:17.140 want those names
00:13:18.400 attached to them?
00:13:20.020 But I think it goes
00:13:21.040 beyond the work environment
00:13:22.400 to San Francisco
00:13:24.220 as this
00:13:24.960 sort of liberal bat,
00:13:26.400 quote unquote,
00:13:27.520 liberal bastion
00:13:28.460 where everyone agrees,
00:13:29.760 everyone votes the same way.
00:13:31.300 And they really believe
00:13:32.340 anyone that sort of
00:13:33.300 steps outside of that,
00:13:34.540 which is essentially
00:13:35.240 the Democratic Party platform,
00:13:37.520 one that I used to
00:13:38.360 and hear to,
00:13:39.220 if you even ask a question,
00:13:41.360 you are suddenly,
00:13:42.740 you know,
00:13:44.120 a nutbag,
00:13:45.060 KKK member.
00:13:46.900 Like,
00:13:47.140 there's nothing in between,
00:13:48.880 you know.
00:13:50.080 And so,
00:13:50.920 they don't want to endure that.
00:13:52.300 I get it,
00:13:53.280 you know,
00:13:53.520 and for a lot of people,
00:13:54.300 it's not a tenable thing
00:13:55.740 to lose your job.
00:13:57.560 But mostly,
00:13:58.420 I think it's the social
00:13:59.660 ostracizing
00:14:00.580 that people avoid.
00:14:02.100 And look,
00:14:03.300 I'm not going to lie,
00:14:04.140 you know it's hard,
00:14:05.000 I know it's hard.
00:14:07.060 You know,
00:14:07.320 why didn't members
00:14:08.300 of your team
00:14:09.200 who spoke with you
00:14:10.100 quietly
00:14:10.580 about the same issues,
00:14:12.000 why didn't they stand up?
00:14:13.540 It's the same.
00:14:15.180 Right.
00:14:15.880 And I do think
00:14:16.840 since I've left,
00:14:17.720 they've probably been told,
00:14:19.700 do not
00:14:20.180 have any contact
00:14:21.640 with her.
00:14:22.220 Totally.
00:14:23.800 I am certain
00:14:25.900 they have
00:14:26.440 because again,
00:14:27.200 you're right,
00:14:27.680 it's the same tactics
00:14:28.520 they use
00:14:29.040 and I know
00:14:29.700 that's on my end
00:14:31.040 on the app.
00:14:32.520 Just you have
00:14:32.860 women's sports.
00:14:34.260 Yeah.
00:14:34.440 And they are,
00:14:34.900 there's a lot of parallels
00:14:36.000 that go
00:14:37.720 with the situation,
00:14:39.100 whether that's
00:14:40.040 the denying of truth,
00:14:41.460 whether that's
00:14:42.060 the silencing,
00:14:43.180 whether that's,
00:14:43.740 you know,
00:14:44.380 secretly changing
00:14:45.300 the language
00:14:45.860 that we use.
00:14:46.700 I mean,
00:14:46.880 these cultural issues,
00:14:48.780 it should be chilling
00:14:50.240 to a lot of people
00:14:51.320 that you can't even
00:14:52.120 ask a question.
00:14:53.840 So I want to give you
00:14:54.500 an opportunity
00:14:54.980 to talk about your book,
00:14:56.800 Promote Your Book
00:14:57.580 by Zen Button.
00:14:58.840 Again,
00:14:59.300 I read it.
00:14:59.900 It's phenomenal.
00:15:01.960 Let's talk about it.
00:15:03.880 Yeah.
00:15:04.180 Let me say one thing
00:15:05.400 in response
00:15:05.860 to what you just said,
00:15:06.700 though.
00:15:06.940 It should be chilling
00:15:07.880 and I think the thing
00:15:08.660 that's most alarming
00:15:09.520 to me is how many people
00:15:11.080 it is not chilling for.
00:15:13.580 They're fine with it.
00:15:14.520 You know,
00:15:14.720 even after all the revelations
00:15:16.200 about how the government
00:15:17.220 pressured social media platforms
00:15:18.960 to silence and de-platform
00:15:20.420 and censor people
00:15:21.380 as it pertained to COVID
00:15:22.420 and other issues,
00:15:24.000 you know,
00:15:24.860 people that are loyal
00:15:25.860 to party,
00:15:26.860 not principal,
00:15:28.140 are defending it
00:15:29.100 as necessary.
00:15:30.300 You know,
00:15:30.720 and I don't want
00:15:31.480 to malign your generation,
00:15:33.060 but a lot of young people
00:15:34.180 in particular
00:15:34.960 are sort of defending it
00:15:36.600 and a lot of this
00:15:37.180 did start on college campuses,
00:15:38.580 which you alluded to earlier
00:15:39.940 and now it's kind of oozed
00:15:41.300 into the workplace.
00:15:43.080 As far as the book,
00:15:44.000 it came out a few months ago,
00:15:45.080 it's called Levi's and Button.
00:15:46.060 Thank you for reading it.
00:15:48.080 And it is more than a COVID rant
00:15:52.140 if folks aren't particularly
00:15:53.720 interested in that.
00:15:54.560 It is a memoir
00:15:55.140 and I,
00:15:56.540 you know,
00:15:56.920 hopefully it's an inspiration
00:15:58.340 to people to stand up
00:15:59.580 and speak the truth
00:16:00.400 even if you're afraid
00:16:01.420 because we need you.
00:16:03.020 We can't stand out here
00:16:04.420 by ourselves
00:16:05.600 for this,
00:16:06.840 for all this time.
00:16:08.160 The truth needs to out in the end
00:16:09.680 and you don't have to do it
00:16:12.060 in such a big way
00:16:13.100 like I did.
00:16:13.720 You don't have to blow up your life,
00:16:14.800 but in your everyday life,
00:16:15.740 when you are talking
00:16:17.060 to a friend
00:16:17.680 and they say something
00:16:18.860 that sounds kind of kooky
00:16:19.960 or whatever it is
00:16:21.460 in small ways every day,
00:16:23.120 stand up and ask questions
00:16:24.400 and speak truth
00:16:25.180 when you think something
00:16:26.440 doesn't sound right
00:16:28.400 or smell right.
00:16:29.480 That's really what I'm trying to do
00:16:30.840 is just encourage people
00:16:31.720 to do that.
00:16:33.280 You know,
00:16:33.440 one thing I will add
00:16:34.700 is the day after I quit my job
00:16:36.520 in a very public fashion,
00:16:38.280 three members of the San Francisco
00:16:39.480 School Board were recalled,
00:16:40.940 but in a very decisive manner
00:16:42.460 and they were recalled
00:16:43.360 for not opening the school.
00:16:45.560 That means that most
00:16:46.760 San Francisco residents
00:16:47.820 agreed with me,
00:16:49.300 but they were only comfortable
00:16:50.740 expressing it at the ballot box.
00:16:52.400 But imagine if they'd stood with me
00:16:54.020 and they came to the rallies
00:16:55.220 and they, you know,
00:16:55.960 did not allow for me
00:16:56.960 to be demonized
00:16:57.700 because they stood with me.
00:16:59.860 We would have been a force
00:17:01.000 and the most important thing
00:17:02.420 is the schools would have opened
00:17:03.740 and the children
00:17:04.400 would not have been harmed.
00:17:05.540 And I tell that story
00:17:06.640 because it was such
00:17:08.280 an illustration to me
00:17:09.380 of the fact that people knew,
00:17:10.660 you know,
00:17:12.220 they knew
00:17:12.660 and they were mad about it
00:17:13.660 but they were too afraid
00:17:14.540 to come out of the shadows
00:17:15.520 but they did it
00:17:16.180 in the privacy of the ballot box.
00:17:17.580 But we need you to do it in public
00:17:19.060 because we need your help.
00:17:21.580 Absolutely.
00:17:22.480 It's very true.
00:17:24.840 For the longest time,
00:17:26.320 you know,
00:17:26.520 the first few months
00:17:27.440 when I started speaking out,
00:17:29.080 when I would get
00:17:29.580 these private messages,
00:17:30.900 I was so honored, right?
00:17:32.320 I felt like, you know,
00:17:33.400 we're garnering support
00:17:34.380 but then as it continued,
00:17:36.220 it quickly seeped
00:17:37.760 into frustration.
00:17:38.600 Yeah, I get that
00:17:40.720 from other corporate executives.
00:17:42.960 I get from, you know,
00:17:44.520 CEOs will DM me and say,
00:17:46.460 oh, we stand,
00:17:47.100 because, you know,
00:17:47.460 a lot of what I've started
00:17:48.280 speaking about is
00:17:49.320 how sort of these,
00:17:52.060 the woke ideology
00:17:53.280 is informing corporation
00:17:56.180 when the stances
00:17:57.040 that they take
00:17:57.760 but it's all really a charade
00:17:59.140 and it's a cover
00:18:00.040 for less kind of savory
00:18:03.800 and honest business practices
00:18:05.300 because they're able
00:18:06.080 to sort of wrap themselves
00:18:07.360 in virtue and the press buys it
00:18:08.940 and all these CEOs
00:18:10.160 will write to me
00:18:10.920 and say they stand with me
00:18:12.440 and at first,
00:18:13.080 I was encouraged by that
00:18:14.440 and then I was like,
00:18:15.980 dude, stand up.
00:18:18.160 You're the CEO.
00:18:19.580 If you can't change
00:18:20.700 the culture in the company
00:18:21.880 that you work in,
00:18:22.760 if you are afraid
00:18:23.500 of your employees,
00:18:24.800 then we have no hope
00:18:25.760 and then they sort of
00:18:26.960 defend it by saying,
00:18:27.940 well, I'm the breadwinner.
00:18:29.040 I can't really take the risk.
00:18:30.720 So was I.
00:18:32.260 It's so inherently sexist
00:18:33.840 to assume that,
00:18:34.700 you know,
00:18:34.900 my salary was secondary
00:18:36.060 didn't really matter.
00:18:37.380 I have been the breadwinner
00:18:38.400 in my family
00:18:39.120 for three decades
00:18:40.660 but you got to do it
00:18:42.720 and I think those
00:18:43.580 in positions of leadership
00:18:44.640 in particular
00:18:45.520 have such an opportunity
00:18:46.880 to make change
00:18:48.240 and inspire others
00:18:49.820 to come forward.
00:18:50.840 So I stopped being
00:18:52.000 grateful for those DMs
00:18:54.060 and I started poking back
00:18:55.680 at them to stand up
00:18:57.640 and be a little braver.
00:18:59.840 Well, I appreciate your stance
00:19:01.520 and you better make
00:19:02.120 inspiration to me
00:19:03.300 throughout this process.
00:19:05.580 But on top of your
00:19:06.700 Levi's Unbutton book,
00:19:07.980 we're going back
00:19:08.560 to the athlete side
00:19:09.520 of Jen Sanker.
00:19:11.020 You also were the author
00:19:12.820 of Chalked Up,
00:19:13.980 which is about your time
00:19:15.080 as a gymnast
00:19:16.100 but also one of the
00:19:18.000 really incredible things
00:19:19.460 that you've done,
00:19:20.000 again,
00:19:20.180 another one of your productions
00:19:21.340 that I have seen
00:19:22.680 and followed
00:19:23.120 is how you produced
00:19:24.500 the Netflix documentary
00:19:25.820 of Athlete A
00:19:26.900 which was a phenomenal
00:19:29.000 documentary on Larry Nassar
00:19:30.740 and the scandal
00:19:31.640 of the USA Gymnastics.
00:19:34.760 Talk about that.
00:19:37.420 Why did you feel compelled
00:19:39.400 to highlight this?
00:19:42.280 And it's just recently
00:19:43.460 become in the news again
00:19:44.480 because we saw
00:19:45.160 where Nassar
00:19:45.700 was just stabbed
00:19:46.640 and presented.
00:19:48.540 Crazy.
00:19:49.200 I'm surprised, honestly,
00:19:50.200 it didn't happen sooner.
00:19:51.640 Yeah.
00:19:53.440 Well, I wrote the book
00:19:54.560 because I continued
00:19:55.460 to suffer, honestly,
00:19:56.840 and it was really
00:19:57.380 just my attempt
00:19:58.160 to make sense
00:19:58.840 of what had happened,
00:19:59.880 you know,
00:20:00.120 even in my late 30s
00:20:01.480 as a relatively successful
00:20:03.560 and healthy person.
00:20:05.460 If you endure a training
00:20:07.060 that is just rife
00:20:09.220 with cruelty,
00:20:09.700 you're going to have issues
00:20:10.900 with anxiety
00:20:12.160 and self-esteem
00:20:13.140 and, you know,
00:20:14.260 body image
00:20:15.420 and, you know,
00:20:15.880 all of the things
00:20:16.540 that continued
00:20:17.160 to sort of haunt me
00:20:18.880 and I wanted
00:20:19.340 to make sense of it.
00:20:21.400 I didn't know
00:20:22.100 if I could get
00:20:22.500 the book published.
00:20:23.200 I did
00:20:23.700 and it was,
00:20:26.160 the world was not ready.
00:20:27.600 That was like
00:20:28.100 the first time
00:20:28.940 the internet came for me.
00:20:30.600 This was before me too
00:20:31.860 and so, you know,
00:20:32.700 saying the things
00:20:33.400 that I said
00:20:33.940 that the sport
00:20:34.440 was rife
00:20:34.860 with physical,
00:20:35.460 emotional,
00:20:35.940 and sexual abuse,
00:20:37.020 it was like,
00:20:38.220 she's a liar,
00:20:39.240 she's a griptor
00:20:39.880 and even the people
00:20:40.500 I trained with
00:20:41.220 sort of like
00:20:41.740 what, you know,
00:20:42.600 you have dealt with
00:20:43.460 would not
00:20:44.520 stand up
00:20:46.240 and say anything
00:20:46.940 and in fact
00:20:47.500 came after me
00:20:48.780 and called me a liar
00:20:49.820 because the image
00:20:50.740 of the sport
00:20:51.280 is one of the cute
00:20:52.640 little pixies
00:20:53.380 dancing around
00:20:54.140 and everybody upheld that
00:20:55.340 because the leadership,
00:20:57.460 USAG, USOC
00:20:58.680 and the coaches
00:20:59.840 sort of insisted on it
00:21:01.480 and these girls,
00:21:02.240 even as grown women
00:21:03.100 were still chasing
00:21:03.880 the approval
00:21:04.460 of their coaches
00:21:05.220 in this really
00:21:06.040 totally bizarre way
00:21:07.180 but eventually
00:21:08.180 the truth came out
00:21:09.220 in 2016
00:21:10.120 when the Nassar story broke
00:21:11.500 and I held that close to me
00:21:13.160 when I was speaking out
00:21:14.100 about COVID.
00:21:14.780 I just got the timing
00:21:15.720 you know,
00:21:16.620 I forgot that it took
00:21:17.600 10 years
00:21:18.320 in gymnastics
00:21:20.260 and I kept thinking
00:21:21.200 it's so obvious
00:21:22.040 with COVID and kids
00:21:23.060 that it's going to
00:21:23.580 break through sooner
00:21:24.420 but I think it will
00:21:25.720 I just think it's
00:21:26.580 probably a decade
00:21:27.460 I don't think it's
00:21:28.300 a two or three year process
00:21:29.640 you know.
00:21:32.060 So once Nassar
00:21:33.940 was convicted
00:21:34.520 and went to prison
00:21:35.360 because I'd been
00:21:36.220 one of the first people
00:21:37.060 to speak
00:21:37.580 or I was actually
00:21:38.580 the first person
00:21:39.680 to write about
00:21:41.440 in a first person
00:21:42.600 I count the abuse
00:21:43.340 in the sport
00:21:43.780 I came to know
00:21:45.700 many of the victims
00:21:47.160 the survivors
00:21:47.900 and I just felt like
00:21:49.320 this could be a movie
00:21:50.900 I didn't really know
00:21:51.560 how to make one
00:21:52.200 but I thought
00:21:52.700 well I can figure it out
00:21:53.780 I knew I couldn't direct it
00:21:55.620 but I wrote the story
00:21:57.240 and I found directors
00:21:58.320 a couple directed it
00:22:00.540 and I got all the folks
00:22:01.820 to agree to be in it
00:22:02.820 and you know
00:22:03.600 they were nervous
00:22:04.360 they were plastered
00:22:05.660 all over the news
00:22:06.380 and didn't always feel
00:22:07.200 well represented
00:22:07.940 but they trusted me
00:22:09.100 so you know
00:22:10.260 they agreed to do it
00:22:11.380 and it came out
00:22:13.560 I mean it's amazing
00:22:14.480 it won an Emmy
00:22:15.080 for best investigative
00:22:16.120 documentary
00:22:16.740 I'm really proud of it
00:22:17.840 and I think
00:22:18.260 the thing that was
00:22:19.080 important to me
00:22:20.000 was that it wasn't
00:22:20.800 just an expose
00:22:21.600 about Nassar
00:22:22.600 but that it connected
00:22:23.720 his behaviors
00:22:25.400 with the broader culture
00:22:27.500 of abuse in the sport
00:22:28.960 which primes girls
00:22:31.080 frankly
00:22:31.600 to walk into his office
00:22:33.000 and be abused
00:22:33.740 because if you're already
00:22:34.640 experiencing emotional
00:22:35.760 and physical abuse
00:22:37.020 you're not really
00:22:38.180 in a position
00:22:38.680 to stand up for yourself
00:22:39.880 when something's off
00:22:41.040 so that was my goal
00:22:42.820 yeah
00:22:43.940 you can't recognize
00:22:45.040 that sometimes
00:22:45.760 as it's happening
00:22:46.720 which is
00:22:47.400 yeah
00:22:47.620 relating it to
00:22:49.160 to what we went through
00:22:50.560 right
00:22:51.200 when we were sharing
00:22:52.160 that locker room
00:22:52.760 with Thomas
00:22:53.220 I don't think we saw
00:22:54.460 it as sexual harassment
00:22:55.720 at least myself
00:22:57.200 until a year later
00:22:58.280 and I really realized
00:22:59.660 what they put us through
00:23:01.720 what we were exposed to
00:23:03.660 it's like
00:23:04.060 hold on
00:23:04.660 well it's so
00:23:06.000 criminal
00:23:06.980 well it's so disorienting
00:23:08.920 the reason you didn't realize
00:23:09.940 it is because they told you
00:23:10.880 it wasn't
00:23:11.600 and so
00:23:12.080 you know
00:23:12.540 this is what
00:23:12.960 I talk about this
00:23:14.040 in the film
00:23:14.600 in Athlete Day
00:23:15.160 I appear in it
00:23:15.800 a little bit
00:23:16.420 and as like
00:23:17.020 the voice of history
00:23:17.960 and I
00:23:19.080 you know
00:23:19.580 I talk about
00:23:20.200 in my training environment
00:23:21.340 how you know
00:23:21.860 I was training
00:23:22.320 on a broken ankle
00:23:23.220 and I was
00:23:24.140 you know
00:23:24.800 in pain
00:23:25.440 and they were telling me
00:23:26.260 I was just a lazy
00:23:27.000 piece of garbage
00:23:27.780 I was starving
00:23:28.880 because I ate
00:23:29.480 200 calories a day
00:23:30.720 400 calories a day
00:23:32.120 and they told me
00:23:32.900 I was you know
00:23:34.000 a fat pig
00:23:35.360 and so
00:23:35.940 the way it was
00:23:36.820 eventually explained to me
00:23:38.000 when I was you know
00:23:39.180 probably close to 40
00:23:40.540 by my therapist
00:23:41.680 is you know
00:23:42.320 when a mother
00:23:42.800 or a parent
00:23:43.840 abuses a child
00:23:44.820 they say
00:23:45.200 I wouldn't have to do this to you
00:23:46.680 if you weren't bad
00:23:47.600 so it becomes your fault
00:23:49.220 and that's kind of
00:23:50.560 what happened to me
00:23:51.280 and so they're telling you
00:23:52.820 you're being overly sensitive
00:23:54.440 you're being transphobic
00:23:55.900 you're being x y or z
00:23:57.420 and so you put your own
00:23:58.600 feeling of discomfort aside
00:24:00.640 and it's incredibly disorienting
00:24:02.680 because then you can't trust
00:24:03.900 your own perception of reality
00:24:05.440 no
00:24:06.740 but eventually
00:24:07.740 reality breaks through
00:24:09.040 thank goodness
00:24:09.840 and you're like
00:24:10.460 wait a minute
00:24:11.020 that was abuse
00:24:12.500 and in any other context
00:24:14.600 before any of this happened
00:24:16.360 back in 2018
00:24:17.460 at the height of Me Too
00:24:18.700 anybody would have endorsed
00:24:20.020 that view
00:24:20.700 right
00:24:22.440 that that was
00:24:23.280 sure
00:24:24.060 yeah
00:24:24.540 it's
00:24:26.500 it's
00:24:26.980 it's
00:24:27.000 it's
00:24:27.100 and I think
00:24:29.700 it was a huge
00:24:31.040 piece of why
00:24:31.940 it all got expedited
00:24:33.100 and it was interesting
00:24:34.580 it's like this time period
00:24:36.880 where we essentially paused
00:24:38.740 where people
00:24:39.860 had time
00:24:40.980 to get together
00:24:41.800 come up with these
00:24:42.640 mastermind plans
00:24:43.880 of
00:24:44.500 how to really control
00:24:46.700 us
00:24:47.560 and it's worked
00:24:48.900 which is
00:24:49.760 again chilling
00:24:50.620 and they are able
00:24:51.820 and they were able
00:24:53.280 to do it by
00:24:54.160 saying these lies
00:24:55.540 are true
00:24:56.180 yeah
00:24:57.220 everyone is at equal risk
00:24:58.660 children are super spreaders
00:25:00.620 children are resilient
00:25:01.760 they'll be fine
00:25:02.440 if we lock them inside
00:25:03.580 for 18 months
00:25:04.740 like all these things
00:25:05.860 were predicated
00:25:06.660 on lies
00:25:07.520 which is why
00:25:09.040 it's so insidious
00:25:10.040 and we can't allow it
00:25:11.720 yeah
00:25:13.460 we can't
00:25:14.740 no
00:25:15.060 tell us what you're doing
00:25:16.240 now
00:25:16.520 how are you
00:25:18.240 continuing to move forward
00:25:19.440 I know
00:25:19.940 I just saw you
00:25:20.840 at the icons conference
00:25:22.240 which was phenomenal
00:25:23.300 you did amazing
00:25:24.480 everyone loved you
00:25:25.520 what a collection
00:25:27.900 of women
00:25:28.700 and men
00:25:29.620 showed up for that
00:25:31.480 I think it was
00:25:32.100 a really remarkable
00:25:33.060 I think that
00:25:34.840 a lot of the talks
00:25:35.760 are available online
00:25:36.600 I'm not sure
00:25:37.080 if they are
00:25:37.600 or they will be
00:25:38.280 but a remarkable
00:25:39.920 collection of
00:25:41.260 academics
00:25:41.980 and activists
00:25:43.160 female athletes
00:25:44.460 kudos to them
00:25:46.600 for pulling that
00:25:47.180 group together
00:25:47.860 so I do that
00:25:49.620 I speak some
00:25:50.460 and continue to
00:25:51.340 speak out about
00:25:52.500 the things that matter
00:25:53.320 to me
00:25:53.680 specifically as it
00:25:54.620 pertains to children
00:25:55.640 you know
00:25:57.080 that's my
00:25:57.620 you know
00:25:57.900 I wish
00:25:58.360 as a young child
00:25:59.300 in an abusive
00:25:59.960 training culture
00:26:00.680 somebody had
00:26:01.360 spoken up for me
00:26:02.520 I think
00:26:02.900 children are the
00:26:03.940 most vulnerable
00:26:04.580 among us
00:26:05.240 they don't really
00:26:06.000 have a voice
00:26:06.580 they can't vote
00:26:07.380 and they will do
00:26:08.560 what is expected
00:26:10.060 of them
00:26:10.460 especially young girls
00:26:11.560 I think
00:26:12.100 so we have to be
00:26:14.620 very careful
00:26:15.240 like they might
00:26:15.980 agree to things
00:26:16.980 that are not
00:26:18.060 in their best interest
00:26:19.100 you know
00:26:19.780 and we as adults
00:26:20.560 could assume
00:26:21.100 that that sort of
00:26:21.840 tacit agreement
00:26:22.580 means they're okay
00:26:23.340 and it doesn't
00:26:24.240 I never complained
00:26:25.580 in the gym
00:26:26.280 never
00:26:26.940 but that doesn't
00:26:28.960 mean I was okay
00:26:29.760 you know
00:26:30.340 the other thing
00:26:31.900 I'm doing is
00:26:32.300 I'm making a second
00:26:33.180 documentary film
00:26:34.060 about the harms
00:26:35.240 to children
00:26:35.880 from the prolonged
00:26:36.660 school closures
00:26:37.380 and we've pretty
00:26:38.180 much finished
00:26:38.780 filming and we're
00:26:39.440 in the editing
00:26:39.940 phase
00:26:40.440 it's called
00:26:40.860 Generation COVID
00:26:41.780 oh amazing
00:26:43.720 oh my gosh
00:26:44.440 well do we know
00:26:45.280 where we can find
00:26:45.980 it once it's
00:26:46.620 released
00:26:46.960 not yet
00:26:48.660 it's a tad
00:26:49.400 controversial
00:26:50.160 as you might
00:26:51.160 fathom
00:26:51.780 as you might
00:26:52.360 imagine
00:26:52.840 so
00:26:53.280 you know
00:26:55.380 we're gonna
00:26:55.820 we're gonna
00:26:56.340 start looking
00:26:56.780 for distribution
00:26:57.460 soon
00:26:57.900 but I imagine
00:26:58.500 that'll be a bit
00:26:59.300 of a challenge
00:27:00.360 I think
00:27:00.960 not everybody
00:27:01.620 you know
00:27:02.200 there is this
00:27:02.720 widespread acceptance
00:27:03.720 that what we did
00:27:04.660 to kids
00:27:05.120 was not only
00:27:06.060 unnecessary
00:27:06.640 but harmful
00:27:07.580 but there is no
00:27:08.740 it's still a very
00:27:10.000 controversial thing
00:27:10.900 to talk about
00:27:11.680 because you can't
00:27:12.560 really talk about
00:27:13.280 without assigning
00:27:14.040 some blame
00:27:15.320 and nobody
00:27:16.080 wants to do that
00:27:16.920 they want to say
00:27:17.500 this thing happened
00:27:18.280 and it was
00:27:18.720 because of COVID
00:27:19.280 not because it
00:27:19.940 was a terrible
00:27:20.560 harmful policy choice
00:27:22.260 absolutely
00:27:23.800 well when you
00:27:24.540 know
00:27:24.880 you let me
00:27:25.740 know
00:27:26.080 and I will
00:27:26.680 blast it
00:27:27.180 everywhere
00:27:27.560 because that
00:27:28.240 makes sense
00:27:28.880 how can people
00:27:30.520 follow you
00:27:31.200 I'm still
00:27:34.020 tweeting
00:27:34.480 despite the fact
00:27:35.480 that it got me
00:27:36.300 pushed out of my
00:27:37.720 job
00:27:38.140 I do keep
00:27:39.560 a subset
00:27:40.020 so if anyone
00:27:41.360 follows there
00:27:42.420 just my name
00:27:43.220 and it's all
00:27:45.280 on my own
00:27:45.800 website
00:27:46.160 sayeverything.com
00:27:47.300 amazing
00:27:48.680 well we thank
00:27:49.700 you for coming
00:27:50.400 on and we
00:27:51.100 thank you for
00:27:51.660 being a trailblazer
00:27:52.920 in so many
00:27:54.960 different realms
00:27:55.880 of this crazy
00:27:57.900 life that we're
00:27:58.940 living
00:27:59.200 back at you
00:28:00.760 Riley
00:28:01.080 thanks for tuning
00:28:03.240 in to the
00:28:03.640 games for girls
00:28:04.180 podcast
00:28:04.840 you can download
00:28:05.740 and subscribe
00:28:06.300 anywhere where
00:28:06.980 you get your
00:28:07.320 podcasts
00:28:07.920 apple spotify
00:28:09.560 make sure you
00:28:10.800 go to outkick.com
00:28:11.840 we will see you
00:28:12.820 next week
00:28:13.300 you