Roanoke College swim and dive into the story of a male swimmer joining the women's team and how their team dealt with the situation. Two of the three female swimmers on the team talk about how they handled the situation and how they dealt with it.
00:00:43.040Mediocre Man decides to join the women's team to become a record smasher.
00:00:48.040We just saw this in New Jersey this week at Ramapo College, where a male athlete, of course, was breaking team records and the women's division, different things like that.
00:00:59.940Today's guests have their own experience dealing with this at Roanoke College.
00:01:05.280Their story gained a lot of attention at the beginning of October.
00:01:09.720But of course, events happening in the Middle East, Israel and Palestine, that kind of took precedent, of course, and understandably in the media.
00:01:19.360And so their story got covered up pretty quickly.
00:01:44.120Thank you so, so much for coming on today.
00:01:46.740You guys have been absolutely incredible warriors defending women's sports because, unfortunately, you have seen firsthand the impact of what allowing men into women's sports looks like.
00:02:01.900And so we have Lily and Bailey, the captains of the Roanoke College swim team here.
00:02:06.480I kind of just want you guys to, one, start by introducing yourselves and give us a rundown on really what went on on your team, because truthfully, it happened at such a time where there was other issues going on in the world.
00:02:21.120And so I think I think y'all's story kind of got looked over to a degree.
00:02:25.520And so I want to give you the opportunity to talk about how you guys are here now.
00:03:00.940So how we learned about this is in the summer, we got an email from our coach and we were going to have like a leadership meeting with all of us, the women's captains and the men's captains.
00:03:13.300And kind of at the end of the meeting, he had told us, like, just so you know, this person is going to be able to swim with you guys.
00:03:21.720And I mean, for me, it kind of just sent like a little bit of shock through my whole body.
00:03:28.240And then I was like, oh, gosh, like, how do we move on from here?
00:03:32.220And so after that, we had just talked with the women's leadership.
00:03:37.000And whenever we did, I think we were all pretty timid as to how to talk about this at first, because none of us really knew how to say anything or what to say.
00:03:48.320I don't know if Bailey, if you want to talk about how you felt initially.
00:03:52.100Yeah, I was going to say, I feel like we were all a little afraid.
00:03:54.820I was afraid anyway, because I didn't know if we were all on the same page kind of when we found out about it.
00:03:59.640But we were all just kind of like, okay, like, cool, cool.
00:04:02.980And then we texted to the side and we were like, oh, has anyone else thought about this?
00:04:07.160And we're like, oh, my gosh, like, I'm so glad I'm not the only one freaking out about this.
00:04:11.360So it was definitely when I first found out about it, I was worried.
00:04:15.660But I don't think I knew how extreme the worriedness would get.
00:04:20.160I was just kind of like, this might be a problem.
00:04:22.640And then in like two weeks, I was like, okay, this is a big problem.
00:04:26.120Um, so yeah, I was definitely worried, like, right when I found out, but I didn't realize how big of a deal this was really going to be.
00:04:34.480So that was pretty scary, I guess, just transitioning and like having to deal with it building up and like escalating and just like that whole entire like situation building up until like we got on campus.
00:04:46.480So for clarification for everyone, you know, this is a male swimmer who swam on the men's team.
00:04:52.680Um, what year was the swimmer before he decided to switch to the women's team?
00:04:59.040He started off as he swam as a freshman on our team.
00:05:04.540Um, so my sophomore year, he came in as a freshman on the men's team.
00:05:08.480And then over the summer, I think it was summer 2022.
00:05:11.360We kind of found out that this person was going to transition into being a trans woman and, um, that whole, their whole sophomore year, my junior year.
00:05:22.800So last year they spent the whole year transitioning.
00:05:27.400They were just transitioning, coming to practices, but not participating, just kind of like showing their face to still be a part of the team.
00:05:33.220And then that following year, this year is when they came back as a woman.
00:05:39.440Then you guys, how were you as a team told that this was going to happen?
00:05:44.520Um, and were you kind of, you know, offered to give your perspective to it?
00:05:50.200Or was it kind of just like, here, this is what's happening, smile and step aside.
00:05:56.880Um, so when we got on campus, um, we have these things that are called Friday night on the quad and we were all sitting there.
00:06:03.740It's just kind of, there's dinner outside and then, you know, they have, the school has a bunch of different activities.
00:06:09.000And so we were sitting there and as captains, Bailey, Kate, and I were all kind of like, do we want to have a meeting about this before we have like an actual team meeting with our coach in the room?
00:06:20.600And so we said, okay, let's get our ducks in a row and go talk as just a women's team.
00:06:26.920So we got that put together really fast.
00:06:29.920It was just kind of a, come if you want to talk about this.
00:06:32.340If you feel comfortable talking about it, we're going to be in the locker room.
00:06:35.580So we, it was very, so at first it was kind of like, nobody wanted to say anything.
00:06:41.320Cause everyone was like Bailey, Kate, and I had said it like at the beginning, we were like, well, who agrees with us and who doesn't?
00:06:46.940Um, so initially us three kind of were like, all right, we don't think this is fair.
00:06:52.480And then after that, it was like, it was rapid fire.
00:06:55.100Everybody started saying everything that they thought, well, what about this?
00:06:58.800And so we came up with a list of our concerns with, um, having a trans athlete on the team.
00:07:06.200And so that the next day, so that was obviously on a Friday, the next day we had a team meeting with our coaches in the room and we just kind of laid it all out there, all of our concerns.
00:07:15.940And he was honestly very receptive to what we had to say, um, at the time he didn't have like any sort of information at all.
00:07:26.200And that's kind of where our issue comes into play is where the school didn't communicate enough with him.
00:07:32.580They didn't communicate enough with us.
00:07:34.100It was just like, nobody knew what was going on.
00:07:36.980So we were having all these meetings, but at the same time, it was like, no information was actually being given to us.
00:07:44.580And then vice versa, it was very, it was just strange, but that's how we were initially told as a team.
00:07:50.580And the freshmen didn't know about it at all until we had mentioned it, um, in that meeting with just the women's team.
00:07:59.180And so they were really taken back, but truthfully, nobody really knew that this individual would be wanting to compete.
00:08:08.580So it was all up in the air until it wasn't.
00:08:13.080So, so talk about kind of when it wasn't, you know, what did that look like and when did it become a reality for you guys that it wasn't just kind of like this idea anymore?
00:08:26.500It was to the point where you all as women were going to lose opportunities on your women's team.
00:08:36.260I feel like once we kind of all started talking to each other is when it started to become very real because we started to talk about all the possibilities that can be going on records that could be taken relay spots that could be taken times, just like spots on the scoring roster.
00:08:50.340That could possibly be taken when we started talking about as a team, I think that's when it started getting a little bit scary.
00:08:56.780Um, but a week after our meeting is when, or was it, it might've been a few days after our meeting is when practice has started, which I think for a lot of people, it started getting very real.
00:09:07.120Luckily, um, the captains, me, Lily and Kate didn't have to practice with this individual much at all, except for Saturday mornings when our whole team's in the pool together.
00:09:15.380But I know a lot of, uh, the girls who swim with this person through every single practice was just like having such a hard time, like watching this person swim, like just even like seeing them like on the pool deck in the pool.
00:09:31.000And then like, just coming back and like telling us how their practice was to be like, Hey, how was practice?
00:09:36.360Instead of like, Oh, I had a really great set.
00:09:38.240It was all about the transgender person who was up to practice.
00:09:41.300It really just like took everything over.
00:09:43.060So then you guys were set to have your inner squad meet, um, which is basically, you know, where half of your team competes against the other half of your team before your season starts.
00:09:55.100Um, and so you guys were set to have your inner squad meet, um, and you all were told that the male athlete would be competing, um, on the women's team.
00:10:03.920And to my understanding, you guys were told you got to vote on if this is something that you wanted, um, on your team or not.
00:10:13.940So I, I had kind of touched on all the meetings we were having.
00:10:17.080So obviously we were going into meetings, Bailey, Kate, and I with our coach.
00:10:22.960Um, like I said, though, the school wasn't doing a very good job communicating.
00:10:26.960So when we were trying to bring our concerns, it was like a, I don't really know what to tell you kind of thing.
00:10:33.000Um, so with that, we ended up having to write a letter to the individual where we stated our concerns point blank, just from Bailey, Kate, and I kind of representing what we had talked about as a women's team at our first meeting.
00:10:48.620And then after that, the individual was not happy with that letter, obviously, because they wanted to swim.
00:10:55.540And I mean, we said just not on a women's team.
00:10:59.120And so then, um, after that, we ended up having a meeting with the individual in the room where we kind of got to just state our concerns to the person.
00:11:07.460And then they also got to say to us what their side of the story kind of, um, and with that, there were a lot of things that were just not really a part of the discussion, nothing that should have been a part of the discussion.
00:11:23.560Like there were mental health battles being brought up and Bailey and I were actually on FaceTime during that meeting.
00:11:29.160And so we weren't able to put in like, like in person feedback.
00:11:34.960And so it was just Kate at that meeting by herself, um, with the rest of the women's team, but the only captain there.
00:11:42.720And so she was pretty uncomfortable with that.
00:11:45.540But with that, the individual had said that, um, they wanted to compete on the women's team and everyone kind of was like, uh, on edge about it.
00:11:56.840And so what had happened was, um, one of the girls had sent in the group chat, a poll of whether or not we should revote after mid season.
00:12:05.700Um, if this individual would be able to compete with us and score.
00:12:09.840So the idea was the individual would swim exhibition up until our mid season meet.
00:12:15.640And then after that we would revote and then see whether or not we decided that this individual could score points.
00:12:27.360The fact that we had to do that, it was so, it was just, I don't know.
00:12:32.660I was, I was sitting at home obviously on FaceTime and I could feel the tension in the room.
00:12:36.760It was like, I couldn't believe my eyes when I looked at my phone and saw that there was a poll being sent in our women's team group chat voting of whether or not a biological man should be on our team.
00:12:48.940Like I just, it was crazy to me, but so that was our vote.
00:12:53.560Um, and actually only four girls voted no, like they wanted an answer now.
00:12:59.940And the reason that every other girl voted, yeah, they had come to us and said that they felt like they were pressured into doing that.
00:13:07.160And just because that person was sitting five feet from them, like they could feel that they were watching.
00:13:13.200Like, are you going to, what are you going to vote?
00:13:37.520It was very like pressured and it didn't seem like anyone really wanted to vote.
00:13:42.180And then it had to be sent like in the women's group chat.
00:13:44.540And then I was very confident that everyone was going to vote no because of the previous meetings we've had and how like on the same page everyone was.
00:13:52.840So to see the results and just to see the yeses keep rolling in, like I was just sitting there like, oh my gosh, like, like I didn't even really know what to think because I didn't know where everyone's head was at.
00:14:03.760I was like, did everyone change their opinion?
00:14:06.220And now they really are like, okay with this.
00:14:08.460Like, did everyone just feel pressured, which ended up being the case.
00:14:12.140Like, I know a lot of girls came up to us afterwards and was like, ah, I kind of regret like voting yes.
00:14:16.680Like, I would just felt like in the moment I needed to, like, it was like they were staring at me.
00:14:23.640So that definitely like changed a lot.
00:14:27.040And I guess going back to when things started feeling real, I feel like after that vote came in, it was, it was really scary because, yeah.
00:14:36.220Well, I think that shows the power because, of course, we hear the saying courage is contagious, but I think, you know, cowardice is also contagious.
00:14:46.320Um, I, I think those, those two things are both true.
00:14:50.940Um, it's kind of like the Stockholm syndrome, right?
00:14:53.460You have one person vote no or yes in this case.
00:14:58.980And I think you guys were truly, um, emotional, emotionally blackmailed into abandoning your gut instinct and your moral compass and what you know to be right and true and fair and just.
00:15:11.140Um, which I don't think a lot of people, I hear all the time from people, oh, well, why don't you just not compete?
00:15:18.640Why don't you just all these other excuses?
00:15:20.660But, um, they haven't put their, their selves in that situation.
00:15:24.680Um, because when you, you feel burdened with someone else's mental health or whatever other circumstance that might be, it is a hard position to be in, especially as, you know, 20 year old and younger girls.
00:15:39.980And I think it's awesome too, just how unified you guys were leading up to that point.
00:15:44.640And of course, after this point, initially you guys got back unified, which we'll get to, um, this is really the only time that we've seen this, um, all of the team kind of stand together.
00:15:57.180Um, speaking from my own experience, um, Paula Scanlon, who, who swam at university of Pennsylvania on the team with, with Leah Thomas, Will Thomas.
00:16:05.600Um, there was not that, that unity aspect necessarily.
00:16:11.200And so I want you guys to, to talk about what that looked like.
00:16:16.680Um, because it's not like you had 30 or however many, you know, 17, if you had 17 people voting, it's not because you had 17 staunch conservatives on your team.
00:16:32.060Um, yeah, I think our team was very like diverse.
00:16:35.440In that area, like we have like several different people, like in the community, which I thought was really, really awesome that they even had the courage to like come out and stand up for something that's so right.
00:16:45.060Um, I think our team being unified definitely just like made so much of a difference.
00:16:50.640And it also just made our team so much of a safe space because of all the things that was going on outside.
00:16:56.440We could always come back into the locker room and just let it all out.
00:16:59.420Like some of us just spend like so much time in there because we know, like those are the group of people we need to stick with.
00:17:06.700Like these are the safe people to talk to.
00:17:10.520Yeah, it was, um, whenever we had left our initial meeting, I remember feeling like, okay, like I felt like I could take a deep breath because I knew that everyone, that we all at least agreed with the fact that this wasn't fair.
00:17:28.420Whether or not it was, um, like people were back and forth on whether or not this person could swim exhibition or that kind of thing.
00:17:38.940That part wasn't as important as how we all felt just as a whole.
00:17:46.100Like we all were unified under, like I said, under the umbrella of the fact that this isn't fair.
00:17:52.980And so the fact that we could lean on each other, um, and the fact that we were able to just say, all right, guys, like we all agree on this.
00:18:18.080Um, ultimately the male swimmer did not end up competing with the women, um, which was, it was good news, right?
00:18:28.040Um, no one was, no woman was being infringed upon.
00:18:32.720Um, then there was a press conference, which I think this is where the story kind of got a lot of national attention.
00:18:39.940Um, there was a lot of outlets there covering that, including OutKick, including Fox, um, lots of outlets who were there.
00:18:46.940I was there, which it was so incredible for me to see, um, you guys standing together, um, unified again, um, sharing how this affected you.
00:18:56.720Because we hear all the time about how this affects the other side, how this is affecting trans athletes.
00:19:03.720Um, and so you guys so bravely shared how you felt and also your parents were there and read a statement from the parents' perspective, um, which is amazing.
00:19:14.560I'm going to insert a picture of your parents at your inner squad meet and the shirts that they were wearing, uh, which is what we need more of.
00:19:21.600We need more parents willing to defend their daughters, whatever age their daughters are.
00:19:28.920Um, so talk about that press conference and really the courage that it took to do that, knowing that, you know, being on a college campus, it's pretty well understood that that won't always be, uh, received in the best way.
00:19:45.400Even though you guys didn't have bad intentions, it's not like you, you have any ill will or, or, um, bad intentions towards this trans athlete.
00:19:55.040Um, you just wanted to preserve women's sports.
00:20:01.380Um, at the, so leading up to the press conference, Bailey and I actually, when we were behind the door getting ready to walk out, both of us were shaking.
00:20:10.620We were looking at each other, like, there's no way this is about to happen.
00:20:13.600Like we're about to, like, what are we doing?
00:20:15.940But, um, at the same time, we were all back there, like all 10 of us were back there and we're like, okay, everybody take a deep breath on three.
00:20:23.320So we took a deep breath together and we were like, guys, we're doing this for a good cause.
00:20:26.460And then after that, it was like, all right, like we're, we're about to go do this.
00:20:30.060Like it kind of, it was kind of like the feeling, I know Riley, you'll probably relate to it, like behind the block whenever you're like, okay, I'm ready to go.
00:20:38.080Um, so that's kind of how we felt with that, but it was definitely nerve wracking, especially because, um, the Daily Mail article came out that morning.
00:20:45.960And so we had, oh gosh, we had reporters all over campus and they were stopping people asking questions.
00:20:52.600And for us, we were just kind of like, like, oh gosh, we were, we were kind of the ones who got, like, we got this started.
00:21:01.120Um, cause I mean, our names obviously were on the article.
00:21:04.480And so whenever all these people were coming and asking questions to all these people, it was like, oh my gosh, like what, what's happening right now?
00:21:11.880Um, and so that was pretty nerve wracking, but like I said, it was just, once we got there, it was like, okay, we're doing this and we know we're doing this for a good cause.
00:21:24.680And having, I know my mom was the one who gave the speech.
00:21:28.200And so whenever she did that, I know even just having her in the front row, like just being able to look at her and say what I was saying in my speech, I was like, okay, my mom's right there.
00:22:10.780Um, so what was the point where the male swimmer, um, came out and said, you know, I'm not going to be on the women's team or did it come from a coach?
00:22:21.040Where did, where did that final, um, executive decision that the male ultimately would not be competing on the women's team come into place?
00:22:29.180It was actually before the press conference, which is kind of crazy because we already had this whole thing planned out.
00:22:35.480So when the text message dropped that the swimmer was not going to be swimming anymore, we were like, oh my gosh, like it was like very weird.
00:22:41.740It was like, so the, um, the swimmer sent a message.
00:22:46.260I think it was the week after our inner squad meet and the week before or the day before the press conference.
00:22:53.940It was like within the week of the inner squad meet in the press conferences, um, individual sent a text message out in our whole team group meet.
00:23:01.660So like guys team, girls team, and then all three of our coaches, and it was basically explaining that they were not going to be on the team for the rest of the year.
00:23:13.140Um, didn't really go into much detail about why, but kind of mentioned how they didn't like how the administration wasn't giving them a straight answer on what they were going to do.
00:23:22.040So like just how we were like really not okay with how the administration handled things.
00:23:26.980Neither was the person on the other side of the situation, which is kind of crazy.
00:23:30.640Um, so yeah, that's when the text message came to be, um, which was very weird because when the text messages came out, I, I thought I would feel a lot more relieved.
00:23:44.260Like it was a, I don't really know how to describe the feeling of when it came out.
00:23:48.640It was almost like, I don't know, Lily, do you?
00:23:51.260It was, it was kind of like, I mean, we had all this tension and all this, I guess the best word to put on it for me was heartache.
00:23:59.640Cause I obviously never want to see anybody upset, but at the same time, my entire team was upset.
00:24:07.240And so going through that and all of us at the same time, feeling all these emotions and we were, we were up here and then all of a sudden it just dropped.
00:24:15.780So everything that we had been feeling, it's like, we weren't, it, to me, the way I kind of, I don't know, the way personally I felt it, it was like, I couldn't feel that way anymore.
00:24:26.620Like, it was like, okay, the, the individual quit, like, like stop.
00:24:31.520But at the same time in, in my head as well, I was like, no, no, like we just went through a month and a half of every other day having two hour long meetings talking about this.
00:24:57.400I didn't know what course of action to take next, especially, I mean, Bailey had said that like that message came right before we were supposed to have this press conference.
00:25:05.860I had this internal battle with myself, like, well, our situation's over, but like, we went through this.
00:25:13.540I don't want anyone else to go through this.
00:25:16.520Should I, I was like, what, it was just so many things going through my mind at once.
00:25:21.660I'm grateful that you spoke up because I actually went to Virginia to testify last year.
00:25:28.040And I will never forget, it was Delegate Jeff Bourne.
00:25:30.940Uh, he looked me in my eyes and told me that I was a hateful bigot, that I was bullying trans people for advocating for this piece of legislation that would ultimately, it wouldn't ban anyone from competing.
00:25:43.120Of course, you would just compete with your sex, um, the sex you, you were born with.
00:25:48.940And so, uh, and he went on to tell me, why are we creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist?
00:25:55.200Um, and unfortunately you guys were on the receiving end of a problem that most certainly does exist.
00:26:01.920Um, so hopefully your situation can of course be used to, um, propagate this issue, um, you know, persuade people onto our side to see how this is harmful to women.
00:26:13.900Um, as you said, Lily, you know, not eating, not sleeping.
00:26:17.160I mean, it's, it's really, it's torment for you guys.
00:26:20.340And so hopefully more people can realize that, unfortunately, sometimes it takes a pretty terrible circumstance, uh, for people to realize that.
00:26:30.400Um, but as we wrap up here, I just want to give you guys the opportunity to, you know, if you had any advice for someone going through this, which those stories seem to be popping up daily now in different sports and different states, different levels, you know, high school, college, elementary school, even.
00:26:48.980And, uh, what would y'all's advice be, whether it's a team or an individual athlete, I guess, just have courage.
00:26:57.600Like I was so terrified just going into this situation, having to deal with the unknown of what was going to happen and then deciding to stand up and for what's right about the situation.
00:27:10.160And the biggest thing that I think helped me and I think helped our team was just having the courage to do so because it was very scary.
00:27:19.160As Lily was saying, like we were shaking before the press conference.
00:27:22.240Like it was, it was a very, um, nerve wracking experience, but I have never felt so like empowered after standing up for something I believe in.
00:27:31.980So I just would tell everyone, just don't be, don't be scared.
00:27:38.680I would say just instead of thinking about what kind of helped me, I guess, is I had mentioned that internal battle I had of our situation was over, but do I still speak out?
00:27:51.500And the way I told myself to speak out is I'm like, if, and I've said it multiple times, if I have a daughter and I put her into a sport and then this happens to her, I would never be able to forgive myself because I had this opportunity and I didn't do anything about it.
00:28:08.160So just have the courage to be able to say, this is bigger than just what's happening here.
00:28:13.440This is, this is across so many different age groups, so many different like levels of competition too.
00:28:22.360It doesn't matter if, I mean, we're a D3 school, but this is happening all over the place.
00:28:26.940Obviously Riley with D1, it was, it's just be able to sit there and say, look, I'm doing something for the greater good.
00:28:35.360And I'm, I know that what we're doing is going to make an impact.
00:28:40.300I think that just knowing that and having, like Bailey said, having the courage to just say what you believe truthfully that, oh, it just, it, it does so much.
00:28:52.860Like I, I had no idea that this was going to get as big as it did, but now that it is, and now that, I mean, on the West coast, we had heard that our story inspired other people to stand up for what they were going through.
00:29:04.260And so I think just that it's bigger than just one person.
00:29:09.820So if you can, and if you have the opportunity to speak up, my advice would be to do it, take the opportunity and do it as many times as you can.