Gracie and Madison Shaw, two of the three brave female athletes who filed the Title IX Complaint with the Office of Civil Rights, join us to talk about their experience and courage in filing the complaint, and what it means to be a woman in the sport of volleyball.
00:03:29.840Well, Gracie and Madison, welcome to the Gains for Girls podcast.
00:03:33.420I say this often when we have what I would describe as heroines like yourself on the show.
00:03:39.660Like, these are my favorite people to talk to.
00:03:42.160It's kind of like your ordinary, everyday person who probably never imagined that you would be in the situation that you have now found yourself in.
00:03:51.960But you have, I mean, you've been the embodiment of courage and bravery since really being willing to put your name in your face of this.
00:03:59.140So thank you guys so much for joining.
00:04:00.960Do you mind just sharing a little bit about yourselves, maybe how long you've been playing volleyball, and I think what the sport has meant to you and your family?
00:04:09.660Gosh, you guys come from a family of volleyball players.
00:04:13.540Well, thank you very much for having us.
00:04:17.380For me, I've been playing volleyball for now nine years.
00:04:21.340I started in middle school, sixth grade.
00:04:24.840I kind of come from a volleyball family.
00:04:27.080My mom was a volleyball player and had the chance to get signed to be able to play in college and then actually was given the opportunity to switch from volleyball and then went to track.
00:04:40.320Very athletic family, but I've had her as my coach since the very beginning.
00:05:37.920You speak to the memories and the relationships and the friendships.
00:05:41.980Obviously, I played a different sport, but my best friends in life are the people that you meet playing sports.
00:05:48.800When you're young, when you go to college, those are your, your roommates, your best friends.
00:05:53.020And so totally in the skill sets you develop, like you said, discipline, leadership, communication, all those things translate even beyond sports.
00:06:01.660And so really critical stuff, but to come from a family of, of four sisters, four girls who all play volleyball.
00:06:34.740Yeah, it's definitely, it's been an amazing opportunity to be able to have such a close relationship with my sister and being able to play sports with her.
00:06:42.560Um, we do have to say when we're on the team, our teammates knew who the sisters were on the court because yeah, it's just, you have that different relationship where you're more tough on each other.
00:06:54.600You really try to bring out the best in each other.
00:06:56.500And sometimes it's, you show it a little differently to your sister than your friend or your teammate on the team.
00:07:02.160So it's, it's definitely been a great experience and I love it.
00:07:05.800So you guys have found yourself in the midst of this situation, which I gave some background in the intro and the intro.
00:07:11.740So would you mind telling a little bit about, I mean, specifically what I'm referring to and how you found out this was something that you both would have to be kind of dealing with?
00:07:22.720Last year I committed to the volleyball team.
00:07:28.040I played all six rotations, never really came off the court.
00:07:31.420It was honestly one of my best volleyball seasons.
00:07:35.280I learned so much and I just felt like I was going to be able to go into my next season feeling I had the opportunity to be.
00:07:41.740Earned scholarships and continue my volleyball career in transfer to a four year.
00:07:47.360But I was really concerned about this male athlete.
00:07:51.980And I was currently a red shirt on our team.
00:07:54.920And I wanted to raise these concerns of my safety, not only just for me, but for my teammates and other female athletes that are going to be participating in games and playing against this person.
00:08:07.680And our privacy, how it's being invaded every time in the locker room situation.
00:08:13.740And really, the level of playing field was changed drastically when we have a male athlete on the team.
00:08:21.720So I went and talked to my athletic director, my Title IX coordinator, and my coach and spoke out about these concerns that I've had.
00:08:30.500And that I was demanding my Title IX rights should be upheld by our school and that our female athletes should be prioritized in women's sports.
00:08:40.280And they were telling us that their current policy is that they're going to allow transgender male athletes participation on women's sports.
00:08:50.860And I just felt my voice was not being heard.
00:08:53.700They were not taking it seriously into what I was saying and how I felt my rights were being violated.
00:09:00.220So I decided to file this complaint in hopes that they would change their mind.
00:09:05.780Was there any, like, clarity or transparency, I guess maybe is a better word, from your university or maybe from the coaching staff that this athlete was a male?
00:09:17.700Or was this something that you guys, as women, as female athletes, again, who were sharing the locker room, sharing the court with this athlete,
00:09:25.280is this something you guys had to kind of deduce or maybe even question on your own?
00:09:29.100Oh, my gosh, we might be on a team with this male athlete.
00:09:34.380So we went to our athletic director before the season started so that we were hoping that we would have answers about what was going to happen before the season even started.
00:09:44.860And every time we were just turned away with, oh, we don't really know what policy we can follow.
00:09:50.700We need to wait until this meeting and then we'll have an answer.
00:09:53.400And it got pushed all the way until August when we were having games starting, scrimmages starting.
00:09:58.900And we were told, even at one point by our Title IX coordinator, that we can't assume anyone's gender here.
00:10:06.040When, if any person looks at this male athlete with your eyes, you can tell that that is not a female athlete.
00:10:13.380Well, that's the real harm being done.
00:10:16.640And it is truthfully pretty Orwellian when you think about it.
00:10:19.420You have these adults who, I mean, are talking to young girls.
00:10:24.600And the message that they're sending is to, you know, kind of let your guard down, be vulnerable, and disregard what your eyes are telling you.
00:10:31.580So, you know, just accept that this person is the same as you simply because they say they are.
00:10:38.320And that's a really harmful message, again, I think, especially to send to young women.
00:10:43.840One of the, of course, I've looked at the complaint that has been filed with the Office of Civil Rights at this point.
00:10:49.320And one of the concerns was the concern of, of safety.
00:10:53.700And we've seen other stories, I think, especially in the sport of volleyball, where women have been injured.
00:11:01.160Some have suffered season-ending injuries.
00:11:03.700Some women have suffered career-ending injuries.
00:11:05.980People like Peyton McNabb, who's been on this show before.
00:11:08.880I mean, she was partially paralyzed on her right side after being hit by a male on the other side of the court.
00:11:14.500And so, can you talk about the moment when you realized, again, that this wasn't necessarily just about fairness and competition, but about physical risk?
00:11:24.560So, last year, during the spring, I realized that this was big.
00:11:30.520The bigger picture wasn't just my privacy being invaded and fair competition, but we're putting ourselves at risk every time we step onto that court with a male athlete.
00:11:40.080And one of our teammates was at the net, and the male athlete was serving from the end line, which is 30 feet away from the net.
00:11:51.180So, this is not like a hard-driven ball from at the net.
00:12:27.440But this one in particular could have been prevented because we're allowing this male athlete who has physical advantages over these females to be participating and putting us at risk.
00:12:39.540I love that point you make because it's so true.
00:12:43.420It's often an argument or rebuttal used on the other side is they say, well, injuries happen in sports.
00:12:51.840There's, you know, no one on this podcast or this episode is here to say that injuries shouldn't happen.
00:12:58.000But it's the fact that this one was avoidable, preventable, and should have never happened.
00:13:03.940So, that to me is – it's heartbreaking.
00:13:09.220Again, that there are adults who know this, who know that you're being put at risk, yet still kind of being willing to let you guys be the sacrificial lambs in the story, if you will.
00:13:19.600Which one more point I want to make about volleyball specifically – and really, it's kind of across the board with most sports.
00:13:26.980Like, there's a difference in women's gymnastics versus men's gymnastics.
00:13:31.740Like, they're not even – they don't compete the same events.
00:13:33.600Same thing with baseball versus softball.
00:13:35.540Like, the size of the field, the size of the ball.
00:14:36.260And that just shows how men have that biological advantage of being stronger, faster, have broader shoulders, which are advantage in many sports, not just volleyball.
00:14:46.120And why there is two separate sports leagues.
00:14:54.240So you go on to file this Title IX complaint, again, citing the physical concerns that we just talked about, citing the fairness, obviously losing out on opportunities, the privacy concerns as it pertains to the locker room.
00:15:10.860What has been the response that you have received, maybe from teammates or from your coaching staff or from your university?
00:15:18.620I know there was a statement issued by your university that we saw when OutKick reached out and asked them.
00:15:26.640They responded, as many would probably imagine, because it's the pretty standard response that we have seen, whether it's from an academic institution, whether it's from a corporate institution, whatever it is.
00:15:39.560Basically, they're committed to fostering an inclusive and supportive environment for all students and employees.
00:15:45.580But when they say all students, they are pretty exclusively leaving out being inclusive to women.
00:15:54.940So what has the response been that you guys have received?
00:15:58.680Well, from the beginning, we've stated, especially for the locker room situation, how it's uncomfortable.
00:16:05.340I mean, the locker room is supposed to be a space that we're supposed to feel comfortable in.
00:16:21.900And they still continue to say that since this male athlete is identifying as a female athlete and they're on the women's team, they have full access to this locker room.
00:16:33.100And, I mean, just me, Gracie, and Brielle, when we have to go to practice or before games to change, just having that, like, anxiety that, oh, my gosh, I'm going to be having to change in front of a male.
00:16:45.700I personally never had to change in front of a male.
00:16:48.340So this is, like, insane that they're allowing this and choosing what's more comfortable for the male athlete than prioritizing their female athlete's privacy.
00:16:57.900Yeah, it's so violating to be really forcibly put in that position.
00:17:05.320You guys have since, again, shown extreme bravery and sacrifice.
00:17:12.400Again, I think that's important for people to realize, especially people who, I mean, maybe if the people listening or watching this, they've played sports, they understand the sacrifices that naturally come with sports.
00:17:23.540But I think those who haven't played sports, again, we're talking, you're missing out on social events.
00:17:30.680Oftentimes schoolwork becomes compromised because you're at tournaments or games or, you know, traveling with your team, whatever it is.
00:17:37.360Like, there's a lot that goes into this.
00:17:40.440You guys have decided to stand up for women's sports and spaces in a different way beyond this filing this OCR complaint as well.
00:17:51.720Can you talk about what that's looked like?
00:17:54.140I think we might even have a video to show from your tournament, even just this past weekend, if we can clip to that really quick.
00:18:08.880Can you describe what's happening in that clip there?
00:18:12.960I'm sitting on the sideline because I have chose to stay on the team and come to practice, come to the weights.
00:18:20.340I'm spending at least five hours on volleyball every single day.
00:18:24.460And I said to my team, I'm not going to compete while my Title IX rights are being violated and that I have a male athlete on this team.
00:18:33.820And ultimately, I chose to make that choice because that's me putting the choice in the coach's hands.
00:18:40.200Like, look, I'm showing up to everything.
00:18:42.300I'm putting the hard work in and I will play on this team as long as there isn't a male athlete.
00:18:47.820So you're there, but you're protesting by not standing, not playing.
00:18:54.760This is something that I've kind of dubbed as Project Boycott with emphasis on the word boy.
00:19:02.460Anytime there's a man or a male athlete on the field or the court or whatever the athletic setting is, we've seen this rise in women.
00:19:12.920Do exactly what you're doing, saying, look, we're not going to even allow you to trample on our rights in the way that you have been.
00:20:04.640So I decided to step away until a time that they allow our team to be females for a woman's team.
00:20:12.420And there's no longer a male athlete jeopardizing my safety, my privacy and my ability to have fair competition.
00:20:19.380I mean, what you're describing is like seemingly the bare minimum.
00:20:24.760And again, the people who are paid, like oftentimes pretty glamorous salaries, the people who are paid and trusted to protect you both and the rest of your team.
00:20:37.320Actually, not only have they failed to act, they've basically told you that this man's feelings are worth more than your, again, your physical safety, which is a pretty troubling thought.
00:20:50.480And important to mention, obviously this is happening in California, but it's not just about your school.
00:20:57.700We've seen schools, whether it's high schools or colleges, oftentimes even younger.
00:21:02.240We've seen this at the professional level.
00:21:03.860So really all ranges and levels of sports, we've seen this happen across the country.
00:21:09.320Uh, we've seen other, whether it's elected leaders, unelected leaders, people like Governor Newsom, of course, who have shown similar failures to protect girls.
00:21:18.540Do you feel like the experience that you guys are kind of in the midst of now is part of this much bigger story?
00:21:27.340I believe that, I mean, it was super nerve wracking to have to go because at the beginning of all of this, I was on the team by myself wanting to stand up for my rights.
00:21:37.800So my sister and Brielle, they were not committed to the team yet, and this was in the spring.
00:21:42.520And so when I got the courage to stand up and tell my athletic director and my coach how this is wrong and that we should not be having a male athlete on our team, it was very nerve wracking.
00:21:54.940And I just knew that I was called to do this.
00:21:59.800I was called to really create a voice for other young female athletes that are probably in the same situation as me.
00:22:07.400I think back, you know, when relating this to my own personal experience, which I think it's important to make the point that it is virtually the same every time, you know, these stories that continue to break, continue to happen.
00:22:20.080It's, it's pretty much always a pretty mediocre man who becomes this like record smasher in the women's category.
00:22:26.620Like that's pretty standard across the board.
00:22:28.980But when I compare it to, you know, what we went through, what I went through, like I didn't feel qualified.
00:22:35.800I didn't know anything about this issue.
00:22:38.100I didn't know anything about our government.
00:22:39.800I was like the worst public speaker you could possibly imagine.
00:22:43.280Like my face would turn the color of a tomato anytime I had to like be in a setting even like this.
00:22:48.940Like I was so not the person who I would imagine would have any ability to have impact.
00:22:56.700But I quickly realized like when you feel so strongly and so passionately, when you care so deeply about the topic at hand, you're willing to do whatever it takes.
00:23:09.280And in those moments, you find it within yourself, like all the things you thought you didn't know, you're suddenly given, you know, the ability to either research it, understand it, it all clicks kind of, and you can speak eloquently, you can talk about these things, you can have impact.
00:23:28.300Uh, and I think the point too, being that you both have younger sisters, uh, and so knowing that this is something that they could deal with at some point, if they haven't already, which is a crazy thought, given that your younger sister, your youngest sister's only 10 years old, uh, even, I mean, living in the state of California, it would not be an unreasonable thing to imagine that this is something that she will one day have to deal with that alone.
00:23:54.300And I would imagine is enough reason, uh, for you both to be involved as it stands now.
00:24:01.240Again, you guys are kind of taking the, the protests that you are, or the firm stand that you are.
00:24:07.000I don't really like the word protests.
00:24:10.440It's really not what you guys are doing.
00:24:12.720I mean, you're, you're again, the heroes in this story for doing what you're doing, but I mean, it's important to note, like every day that passes without action, without, uh, seeing some sort of,
00:24:24.300administrative level of, uh, whether it's repercussions to the male athlete, uh, or prioritization of the female athletes is another day that you both lose a chance to play the sport that you love.
00:24:37.320And so now with this, this, uh, title nine complaint being filed, what is your message?
00:24:42.820I think specifically to the department of education about the urgency of acting quickly on this complaint and the others that are filed around the nation.
00:24:51.540I think that our hopes for filing this complaint was because we first filed our title nine complaint with, to the school directly, and we still, to this day, haven't gotten a response and realize, we realized that this issue is just going to be ignored if we don't make a bigger deal out of it.
00:25:09.760So by filing our ORC complaint, we, um, we are hoping that they will change their policies.
00:25:19.340They will make it so that only females are in female sports and that male athletes stay out of female sports and that they act quickly.
00:25:27.880Because the more that we don't change these policies, the more male athletes are going to think it's okay to be on these female teams because they can get around it.
00:25:35.640They can, they can go in the locker rooms, they can compete in the teams, they can get play time and win games.
00:25:45.200Yeah, and I've, I've said that I really want to play this season.
00:25:49.740And so my, I'm really hoping that they're able to see clearly that this is not right and that we need to uphold the title nine rights that gave women the equal opportunity to compete in sports.
00:26:03.840And I'm hoping that they will change their policies so that I will be able to play and that's really my end result.
00:26:11.940And for all the female athletes that are doing the same as either not playing or, um, stepping away from the team for the time being, because we all deserve as female athletes to be able to compete.
00:26:23.940100%, um, 100%, um, what's your university, what's your college is doing right now, uh, is explicitly violating your title nine rights.
00:26:34.940And so continue to stand tall, stand firm, uh, maybe you don't have the support you would have imagined from your, your college, or maybe it is the exact support you would imagine from your college.
00:26:49.420Please know that there are so many people, and hopefully you've felt this, especially through social media in the past few weeks as the story has really garnered national attention.
00:26:59.940Hopefully, you know, that there are so many people in your corner cheering you on, uh, watching you as you continue to, to go down the path that you are with hopes that their daughter or maybe their granddaughter doesn't have to go through what you guys are currently going through.
00:27:16.220And so, uh, I appreciate you if there's anything that, that I can do, we can do, uh, would be just happy to do it.
00:27:24.420Um, and you guys, like I said, you guys are heroines.
00:27:27.700And I just appreciate all the, uh, female athletes like you, Riley and Brooks Lesser and organizations like ICONS that have really made it possible for us to have the courage to speak out and to know we have a support system.
00:27:57.940And yes, ICONS, uh, we've had Kim and Marshy, Kim Jones, Marshy Smith on this podcast many times to talk about, uh, I mean, their own personal stories, uh, to talk about the, the litigation that has been ongoing, whether it's the Gaines versus NCAA lawsuit.
00:28:14.940Uh, ICONS, uh, ICONS, as, uh, Gracie Madison said, has been involved in, uh, helping filing of this Title IX complaint.
00:28:23.660Uh, the work that they're doing is incredible.
00:28:26.160And so you can check out ICONS at ICONSwomens.com, uh, get involved there.
00:28:31.340They have lots of ways and resources and different things to help keep people up to date with what's going on and give them kind of like a call to action to ultimately help really foster an environment where women's sports are just for women novel, right?
00:28:47.380Like what a novel concept in the year 2025, we have to say that out loud and continue fighting for it.
00:28:54.100Uh, which is again, is why I'm so grateful for you both.
00:29:06.420Uh, can't imagine the school will act with any sort of efficiency or swiftness and getting the male athlete off of the women's team because they've allowed it up until this point.
00:29:16.720So, uh, I think we will continue to see this story of this team in particular in the headlines, in the breaking news, trending on social media as more and more people become aware of it.
00:29:27.880Uh, these women, these three brave women deserve to be applauded for their courage, uh, for their strong stance.
00:29:36.040Hopefully we see the department of education, the Trump administration get involved very quickly so they can go back to playing the sport that they love.