Coach Chris Goodwin and his attorney, Dave, discuss the case against a Christian school in Vermont that forfeited a game against a team with a male player on the opposing team. They argue that the school violated the First Amendment rights of their female student-athletes.
00:02:29.120We've covered several of their plaintiffs, several of their lawsuits that they've put forward on the basis of religious liberty, free speech.
00:02:35.620We've had Sophia Laurie on the podcast, who sued a library for kicking her out based on, again, the topic of allowing men and women's sports speech she was giving at the library.
00:02:46.640We've had, I believe we've had Blake Allen on the podcast, another athlete actually out of Vermont, which is where this story comes from.
00:02:55.100Again, this is in White River Junction, Vermont.
00:02:57.920Back in February of 2023, this Christian school, again, emphasis on the word Christian here, ultimately decided to forfeit a game where they knew they would be playing against a team that had a male athlete on the opposing team.
00:03:11.960They said, look, in short, you know, this jeopardizes the fairness of the game, the safety of our players.
00:03:17.840And of course, it's an infringement on what we believe to be biblically true.
00:03:26.420They were really one of the first ones to stand up for women's sports, the preservation of fairness in this way by ultimately boycotting, by forfeiting.
00:03:34.640Since then, we've seen it in many different sports and different arenas.
00:03:38.200We just had Stephanie Turner on a few episodes ago.
00:03:41.000I encourage you to go listen to that episode, The Fencer, who so bravely defended herself.
00:03:54.600Check out the episode with Chris Goodwin and his attorney from ADF, Dave, here.
00:03:58.620Okay, well, Chris and Dave, thank you very much for joining the Gains for Girls podcast.
00:04:03.440This story that we're going to be talking about that you guys have had to live is something that I know myself and people across the nation, across the world, have been following for over a year now.
00:04:15.940So, Chris, if you wouldn't mind just telling us a little bit about how you found yourself and the position that you're now in.
00:04:44.820So we talked about it for a little bit.
00:04:46.840He expressed how frustrated he was about it and how frustrated his girls were and also how angry they were that they had to play against a male athlete.
00:04:56.620So, and I do remember a couple of things he said to me that day.
00:04:58.780He said, you know, I can't do anything about it because if I say something, I'll lose my job.
00:05:05.020And if he's a teacher in the school, right, his income's gone as well.
00:05:08.120But I remember him saying to me, but you can do something about it.
00:05:11.840So, you know, we didn't play that team during the regular season, but we were keeping an eye on it to see where we were going to be in the playoffs, how we were going to be seated.
00:05:20.960And we were watching it and watching it.
00:05:22.920And as it got closer, we did see that there was the possibility we'd end up being seated against them.
00:05:28.180And when it did happen, we had already had the conversations with the administration, with the parents, with the students about how we were going to handle that,
00:05:35.080especially since we already contacted the state about two weeks before the end of the season to say, hey, is there any way around this at all?
00:05:46.720So once the seedings came out, you know, the seedings come out one day, we're supposed to play.
00:05:50.700Two days later, we sent a letter to the VPA and to the other school and said, hey, we're going to bow out and we're going to forfeit this game.
00:06:05.080We did write to them, telling them that we were going to forfeit the game.
00:06:07.880And literally about a week after that, they just removed us from all athletic competitions within the state.
00:06:14.600So none of the sports, not just girls basketball, but all boys sports, all girls sports, all non-sport activities like science fairs and spelling bees and things like that.
00:07:05.580So knowing what you know now, again, dealing with these repercussions for two years, let's say you were faced with this again.
00:07:15.400I mean, if even given the opportunity, which now, I mean, you at this point, as it stands, you don't even have the opportunity to face this again.
00:07:49.600Right. And if you refuse to play against male athletes, then you're just not going to play at all.
00:07:55.220And if we don't play by their rules, they just eliminate us basically from all athletic competition.
00:08:00.780So, yeah, we would do the same thing again.
00:08:02.960Our hope would be at the least to just have the opportunity to forfeit games or not play those games when there's a male athlete on the other side and just move on.
00:08:46.760But I'm sure Dave can answer that better, too.
00:08:48.440Yeah, I mean, that's the incredible part about it was a it was a permanent expulsion, not just for the season and not just for their sport, every sport.
00:08:56.300But unless the court rules otherwise and stops them from doing so, the school is out perpetually unless they agree to violate their religious beliefs and then go back on their word and like they wouldn't do it the first time.
00:09:27.440And it's remarkable the state doesn't understand that a Christian school wants to be Christian.
00:09:32.180It's like it's OK to be Christian, but don't act that way, which is, you know, we get a lot from society.
00:09:37.400But, yeah, I mean, it ended up like the coach said there was really no other choice.
00:09:40.620I mean, imagine how crippling it would be to any school to say all your sports are gone, all your academics have, you know, spelling bees and debate clubs.
00:09:49.580I mean, the punishment, the court, one of the judges in the oral argument we just did last week said this feels pretty punitive.
00:09:57.100And it really is because it was the harshest penalty ever meted out in the history of sports.
00:10:05.340The schools participated in the in the state sports league.
00:10:08.240Like, never before have they kicked anyone out of the league, never mind permanently and never mind for every single team and academic club.
00:10:16.320So the only way to get through this is to go to federal court and say, look, you know, this is a violation of our constitutional rights.
00:10:22.300And so we're still fighting that battle.
00:10:24.960Now, how do you feel about the case in in the courts that it's in now?
00:10:29.700My understanding is it's in a pretty liberal district.
00:10:33.140We saw even just today where New Hampshire, there was a federal judge that ruled that two fathers are not allowed to wear pink wristbands that that simply denote XX, again, the female chromosomes.
00:10:48.020As he said, this was a demeaning and a harassing assertion, which is, again, utterly insane.
00:10:54.720So how do you feel about this case in the court that it's in?
00:10:59.040Yeah, I think I think we've got a good chance.
00:11:01.480We just argued at the Court of Appeals, which is a three judge panel in New York City.
00:11:49.060And we have a similar case, you know, out of out of Massachusetts, where a boy went to school and had a T-shirt on that said there are only two genders.
00:19:19.000I mean, I met, you know, a bunch of the girls this past week.
00:19:21.940The basketball team came down to the court with us and we spent a couple days together.
00:19:25.880And it's just a great example to them, you know, to be an adult like the coach is in the school and say,
00:19:31.080look, there's going to be hard things in life and you should stand up for those things,
00:19:34.820even if you're going to face some heat and you're going to have some difficulties.
00:19:37.500So it's just it's just once I just wanted to call out the coach in the school just to say we're all proud of you guys for taking such a stand,
00:19:44.260allowing us to stand there with you, because it's like you said, Raleigh, it flows.
00:19:48.320And you've done the same thing, taking a stand, going across the country, speaking and doing all the activities you've been doing.
00:19:54.080And so it's we just we just certainly appreciate that.
00:19:57.760And people always talk about whether you're on the right side of history or not.
00:20:00.620But when you do the right thing, you always are.
00:20:03.380Absolutely. Yeah. And those girls you mentioned, I mean, I think they were in desperate need of good leadership,
00:20:10.540of people in those authority positions to protect them, because ultimately, I mean, as I see it as as a coach,
00:20:19.280as a principal, as a teacher, that's that's part of the job description,
00:20:23.660are protecting and defending those students, those student athletes.
00:20:28.680So it's really you guys have been the embodiment of courage.
00:20:32.760And what we know, what's been proven, whether it's this issue or any issue, is that courage begets courage.
00:20:38.600And certainly strength in numbers. And that's what you guys have been able to really foster and build out.
00:20:44.620So, I mean, I guess last thing for you, I guess, Dave, what's next for you guys?
00:20:49.420What's the next step here? What can can we expect? How can we support you?
00:20:53.660Yeah, I mean, so we're going to be hopefully a quick decision from the Court of Appeals.
00:20:59.180And people may know that's the level right below the Supreme Court.
00:21:03.080So hopefully they'll you know, they've seen the gravity of the punishment.
00:21:06.380They mentioned it a couple of the judges at the argument.
00:21:08.780So we're hopefully for an opinion pretty soon that'll get the school back in.
00:21:13.120I mean, that's what we ask for is to put them back in all of the sports, boys and girls and all the activities.
00:21:18.100So hopefully that happens. If it doesn't, then we'll take it up to the Supreme Court if we have to.
00:21:23.220This is an important enough fight. It's a battle that's not over yet.
00:21:27.660I think the tide is turning, but you still have a lot of people, as you mentioned, Riley, they're digging their heels in.
00:21:33.400You know, the people running our schools, you have a lot of times the media, you have Hollywood, you know, there's so much.
00:21:40.060Yeah. So much headwinds against this that we're just going to keep going.
00:21:43.040And so hopefully we'll get a good opinion soon. If not, we'll just we'll just keep fighting until we do.
00:21:46.600It's been brought to light recently what's been dubbed as these activist judges.
00:21:53.680And I think that's what we've seen. I won't speak to your case specifically, of course, I don't want to hinder anything.
00:21:59.640But across the board, what we have seen at virtually every level, local, I mean, all the way up to to federal.
00:22:07.100I mean, we I think it really can only be described as activist judges.
00:22:12.180So we will continue supporting you guys, of course, your efforts to preserve fairness, preserve safety, preserve the dignity of women and girls in sports and beyond.
00:22:23.060And so thank you for for your fight, for your courage. We'll be watching.
00:22:28.440Well, thanks for having us. I appreciate all that you do.
00:22:31.380Of course. Thank you guys for tuning in to the Gains for Girls podcast.
00:22:35.640We will be following this lawsuit, hoping and praying for the best.
00:22:40.280Of course, you don't want something like this to make it all the way up to the Supreme Court, because that means it has failed in other courts.
00:22:47.840But it has the the opportunity, the ability to really set the precedent.
00:22:52.480So truthfully, I do hope it makes it to the Supreme Court.
00:22:57.160Exciting stuff. Again, thank you guys for tuning in. Check us out at Outkick dot com.
00:23:01.140That's where you'll find all things Gains for Girls.
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