Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - The Harshest Punishment in Sports History — All for Telling the Truth

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00:00:25.140 What's up, everybody?

00:00:26.240 Thanks for joining the Gains for Girls podcast.

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00:00:39.680 Today's guest, it's a story I've been following for, I mean, over two years now.

00:00:45.760 And if you can remember, which I know you can, two years ago, it wasn't cool to say what now is,

00:00:51.660 I think, a little cooler.

00:00:52.880 I don't think the wind is necessarily behind us, behind the sails here.

00:00:56.140 But it's more acceptable in being bold enough to say that there are two sexes, that men

00:01:03.440 and women are different, that you can't change your sex, that each sex is deserving of equal 1.00

00:01:08.440 opportunity, of privacy in areas of undressing and safety.

00:01:12.220 But two years ago, it wasn't as cool.

00:01:14.920 So I've been following this story for a while.

00:01:16.860 We're going to get into it.

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00:02:19.860 Today we are going to be talking to a coach by the name of Chris Goodwin and his attorney, Dave, here at ADF.

00:02:27.980 ADF has been phenomenal.

00:02:29.120 We've covered several of their plaintiffs, several of their lawsuits that they've put forward on the basis of religious liberty, free speech.

00:02:35.620 We've had Sophia Laurie on the podcast, who sued a library for kicking her out based on, again, the topic of allowing men and women's sports speech she was giving at the library.

00:02:46.640 We've had, I believe we've had Blake Allen on the podcast, another athlete actually out of Vermont, which is where this story comes from.

00:02:52.780 Mid-Vermont Christian School.

00:02:55.100 Again, this is in White River Junction, Vermont.

00:02:57.920 Back in February of 2023, this Christian school, again, emphasis on the word Christian here, ultimately decided to forfeit a game where they knew they would be playing against a team that had a male athlete on the opposing team.

00:03:11.960 They said, look, in short, you know, this jeopardizes the fairness of the game, the safety of our players.

00:03:17.840 And of course, it's an infringement on what we believe to be biblically true.

00:03:24.460 So really great stuff they're doing.

00:03:26.420 They were really one of the first ones to stand up for women's sports, the preservation of fairness in this way by ultimately boycotting, by forfeiting. 0.95

00:03:34.640 Since then, we've seen it in many different sports and different arenas.

00:03:38.200 We just had Stephanie Turner on a few episodes ago. 1.00

00:03:41.000 I encourage you to go listen to that episode, The Fencer, who so bravely defended herself.

00:03:46.840 So awesome things.

00:03:48.500 Again, they're defending the first, our First Amendment rights, free speech, religious liberty.

00:03:53.840 Great stuff.

00:03:54.600 Check out the episode with Chris Goodwin and his attorney from ADF, Dave, here.

00:03:58.620 Okay, well, Chris and Dave, thank you very much for joining the Gains for Girls podcast.

00:04:03.440 This story that we're going to be talking about that you guys have had to live is something that I know myself and people across the nation, across the world, have been following for over a year now.

00:04:15.940 So, Chris, if you wouldn't mind just telling us a little bit about how you found yourself and the position that you're now in.

00:04:23.020 Yeah, the back story.

00:04:24.100 So, yeah, over two years ago now, middle of our season, we're at an away game, and I'm chatting with the coach before the game.

00:04:35.020 And he brings up the fact, he says, hey, do you know there's, he said, a dude playing for one of the girls' teams in our division.

00:04:42.560 And that was all news to me.

00:04:43.900 I didn't know that.

00:04:44.820 So we talked about it for a little bit.

00:04:46.840 He expressed how frustrated he was about it and how frustrated his girls were and also how angry they were that they had to play against a male athlete.

00:04:56.620 So, and I do remember a couple of things he said to me that day.

00:04:58.780 He said, you know, I can't do anything about it because if I say something, I'll lose my job.

00:05:03.740 I won't be coaching anymore.

00:05:05.020 And if he's a teacher in the school, right, his income's gone as well.

00:05:08.120 But I remember him saying to me, but you can do something about it.

00:05:11.840 So, you know, we didn't play that team during the regular season, but we were keeping an eye on it to see where we were going to be in the playoffs, how we were going to be seated.

00:05:20.960 And we were watching it and watching it.

00:05:22.920 And as it got closer, we did see that there was the possibility we'd end up being seated against them.

00:05:28.180 And when it did happen, we had already had the conversations with the administration, with the parents, with the students about how we were going to handle that,

00:05:35.080 especially since we already contacted the state about two weeks before the end of the season to say, hey, is there any way around this at all?

00:05:43.340 Re-seeding, anything?

00:05:44.320 And they said no.

00:05:45.120 It's pretty much a hard no.

00:05:46.720 So once the seedings came out, you know, the seedings come out one day, we're supposed to play.

00:05:50.700 Two days later, we sent a letter to the VPA and to the other school and said, hey, we're going to bow out and we're going to forfeit this game.

00:05:57.440 Plain, simple enough.

00:05:59.420 To which, of course, I mean, what was the response you got from that?

00:06:03.980 Yeah, it was a short letter.

00:06:05.080 We did write to them, telling them that we were going to forfeit the game.

00:06:07.880 And literally about a week after that, they just removed us from all athletic competitions within the state.

00:06:14.600 So none of the sports, not just girls basketball, but all boys sports, all girls sports, all non-sport activities like science fairs and spelling bees and things like that.

00:06:24.200 They just completely removed us.

00:06:25.500 It was quite the consequence, much more than we thought.

00:06:29.760 But we assumed we were going to forfeit that game and pick up next season, game number one.

00:06:34.580 And game number one never came.

00:06:36.720 Crazy.

00:06:37.380 And so even still, the teams, basketball and beyond, aren't able to participate against other schools?

00:06:45.500 So for two years, the state has kept us out of all state competitions going into the third year.

00:06:52.260 So unless something changes in the courts, we will be out a third straight year and so on and so on.

00:06:57.280 And we played in the league for literally 25 years without any incidents in this one event where we forfeited a game.

00:07:04.440 They laid down the hammer.

00:07:05.580 So knowing what you know now, again, dealing with these repercussions for two years, let's say you were faced with this again.

00:07:15.400 I mean, if even given the opportunity, which now, I mean, you at this point, as it stands, you don't even have the opportunity to face this again.

00:07:21.860 But let's say you did.

00:07:22.940 I mean, was this worth it to you and to your team?

00:07:28.180 Yeah.

00:07:28.520 Anytime you're going to stand up for what you believe in.

00:07:31.200 And when someone's a bully and tries to make you compromise your beliefs, I mean, to bow down to that, their orthodoxy.

00:07:42.280 They're trying to tell us that a male athlete on the basketball court is a girl.

00:07:48.200 Right.

00:07:48.680 And they say, go play.

00:07:49.600 Right. And if you refuse to play against male athletes, then you're just not going to play at all.

00:07:55.220 And if we don't play by their rules, they just eliminate us basically from all athletic competition.

00:08:00.780 So, yeah, we would do the same thing again.

00:08:02.960 Our hope would be at the least to just have the opportunity to forfeit games or not play those games when there's a male athlete on the other side and just move on.

00:08:11.300 But they won't even do that.

00:08:12.320 We take the loss.

00:08:13.140 We suffer the consequence of that loss on our record.

00:08:15.760 And that's not enough for them.

00:08:17.320 They're like, no, out.

00:08:18.820 So with the ruling that they gave, like, is there an end in sight or is this just indefinite?

00:08:24.780 Like, is there an amount of time that you guys are your school is barred from participating or is it just indefinite as it stands now?

00:08:34.980 Yeah, I'll let Dave answer that one.

00:08:36.200 But as of now, we're out indefinitely.

00:08:38.560 They would probably never change unless we changed our mind and went along with their rules.

00:08:45.300 Then we'd be banned indefinitely.

00:08:46.760 But I'm sure Dave can answer that better, too.

00:08:48.440 Yeah, I mean, that's the incredible part about it was a it was a permanent expulsion, not just for the season and not just for their sport, every sport.

00:08:56.300 But unless the court rules otherwise and stops them from doing so, the school is out perpetually unless they agree to violate their religious beliefs and then go back on their word and like they wouldn't do it the first time.

00:09:09.780 So it's an incredible.

00:09:11.860 So, Dave, you you guys now brought a lawsuit forward.

00:09:15.200 You mentioned, you know, your religious freedoms, religious liberty.

00:09:18.760 Is that the basis of this lawsuit that you're pursuing, again, from a Christian school?

00:09:26.660 It is.

00:09:27.440 And it's remarkable the state doesn't understand that a Christian school wants to be Christian.

00:09:32.180 It's like it's OK to be Christian, but don't act that way, which is, you know, we get a lot from society. 0.63

00:09:37.400 But, yeah, I mean, it ended up like the coach said there was really no other choice.

00:09:40.620 I mean, imagine how crippling it would be to any school to say all your sports are gone, all your academics have, you know, spelling bees and debate clubs.

00:09:49.580 I mean, the punishment, the court, one of the judges in the oral argument we just did last week said this feels pretty punitive.

00:09:57.100 And it really is because it was the harshest penalty ever meted out in the history of sports.

00:10:03.160 So this is going on 30 years.

00:10:05.340 The schools participated in the in the state sports league.

00:10:08.240 Like, never before have they kicked anyone out of the league, never mind permanently and never mind for every single team and academic club.

00:10:16.320 So the only way to get through this is to go to federal court and say, look, you know, this is a violation of our constitutional rights.

00:10:22.300 And so we're still fighting that battle.

00:10:24.960 Now, how do you feel about the case in in the courts that it's in now?

00:10:29.700 My understanding is it's in a pretty liberal district.

00:10:33.140 We saw even just today where New Hampshire, there was a federal judge that ruled that two fathers are not allowed to wear pink wristbands that that simply denote XX, again, the female chromosomes.

00:10:48.020 As he said, this was a demeaning and a harassing assertion, which is, again, utterly insane.

00:10:54.720 So how do you feel about this case in the court that it's in?

00:10:59.040 Yeah, I think I think we've got a good chance.

00:11:01.480 We just argued at the Court of Appeals, which is a three judge panel in New York City.

00:11:06.700 We lost below at the district court.

00:11:09.780 And I think we've got a better chance now that the appellate courts see these type of cases more often.

00:11:15.440 And I think sometimes appreciate the constitutional implications a little bit more.

00:11:20.040 But as you said, it's really the diminishing of not only religious beliefs, but common sense.

00:11:26.860 Often this issue that you could be punished because you believe that a boy is a boy and a girl is a girl transcends religion.

00:11:34.400 I mean, obviously, it is the basis of their religious beliefs.

00:11:36.840 And that's the most important thing here.

00:11:38.540 But just biology and just just the truth and what we see is now words don't mean what they mean.

00:11:45.520 You know, it's just it's just quite incredible.

00:11:46.980 So I saw that what you mentioned.

00:11:49.060 And we have a similar case, you know, out of out of Massachusetts, where a boy went to school and had a T-shirt on that said there are only two genders.

00:11:57.820 And the same thing happened.

00:11:59.080 They said, well, that's demeaning and you can't speak.

00:12:01.740 So not only are your freedom of religion rights being violated, your freedom of speech rights are now being violated.

00:12:07.500 And yet the schools and the state get to push the other side of it.

00:12:11.360 So they get to say a boy can become a girl and you can't say I disagree.

00:12:15.760 They get to say there's an unlimited number of genders. 0.94

00:12:18.680 You can't disagree and say there's only two, even though science agrees.

00:12:22.940 So it's really incredible.

00:12:24.820 The speech police are out there and in full force.

00:12:27.940 That's true.

00:12:28.560 And you guys, if I remember correctly, had a case of, I believe, Blake and Travis Allen out of Vermont as well,

00:12:34.740 who in a similar fashion, a boy was allowed to join their volleyball team.

00:12:40.900 Blake and her teammates opposed this.

00:12:43.160 She went to the administrator.

00:12:44.260 She was then suspended from school, forced to apologize, which she wasn't willing to do.

00:12:49.680 Her father was the soccer coach.

00:12:51.080 He was ousted from his job for going to Facebook to post about this and using the incorrect pronoun.

00:12:57.340 So the speech police feels very accurate.

00:13:01.980 Yeah.

00:13:02.220 And what's amazing about that, too, is the boy in that case was going into the girls' locker room.

00:13:07.880 So it wasn't just a matter of, you know, hey, he's on a team.

00:13:11.100 He's invading their private personal spaces.

00:13:14.000 So they object to that.

00:13:15.700 And then they're the ones who get in trouble.

00:13:17.860 What happened to protecting girls?

00:13:19.760 What happened to the Me Too?

00:13:20.760 But what happened to all these things?

00:13:22.540 We have to be careful, right, in how we treat our girls and women, which we should.

00:13:26.800 But then we have them in violent physical contact sports being elbowed and, you know, 0.82

00:13:32.920 giving concussions and, you know, a boy who's six foot two, six foot three against these girls.

00:13:38.020 You know, what happened to treating women like we should? 0.98

00:13:40.440 What happened to respect?

00:13:41.940 It's just it all goes out the window for this political ideology.

00:13:44.780 Which that's another thing, Chris.

00:13:49.660 It's not something I had to necessarily worry about in my sport when I was faced with this of swimming,

00:13:54.840 because obviously you're not colliding with one another.

00:13:57.680 You're not running into one another.

00:13:58.900 You're not throwing something at one another.

00:14:00.780 But safety is a big is a big part of it in basketball.

00:14:04.120 I mean, do you have experience with both boys' basketball and girls' basketball?

00:14:10.060 Yeah, it extends out of who they are as boys and girls.

00:14:13.980 So when I coach boys' basketball, it literally takes me a few minutes to get used to watching them run up and down the court

00:14:20.360 because it's such a different speed.

00:14:22.120 It's just different.

00:14:24.540 And I'm trying to picture my daughter, who's a freshman this year, and my son, who was a senior last year.

00:14:31.040 And if I told my daughter, hey, get in there and take a charge when he's going to the basket, 1.00

00:14:36.120 she'll end up in the hospital if she tries to take a charge. 1.00

00:14:38.620 She'll just get collided with and run over. 0.96

00:14:40.640 So the physical difference is, so if there's a boy who's got 30%, 40%, 50% more strength and force

00:14:47.300 when he's running and going to the basket, and you've got a female athlete who's going to receive that, 1.00

00:14:53.020 and she only has the ability to receive that blow with 30%, 40%, 50% less, 1.00

00:14:58.420 it's just a matter of size and strength.

00:15:00.760 And like I said, injuries are going to happen.

00:15:02.820 And when I did see that male athlete come down with an elbow on that one girl who he was playing against,

00:15:09.600 he didn't mean to, but that's just what's going to happen.

00:15:13.000 And again, she missed three weeks of the season.

00:15:15.480 You know, I talked to the coach about it because I knew who he was a few times.

00:15:19.840 And he said, yeah, she missed three weeks and she's a great kid.

00:15:22.200 And he wanted to say something about it.

00:15:24.460 And the athletic director said, you can say something, but you won't be coaching here anymore.

00:15:29.480 So that's the environment that the administrations have over the coaches and the players in the state right now.

00:15:36.520 And the thing is, I would imagine, truthfully, most Americans who feel the way that we feel,

00:15:43.640 I mean, the ones who have common sense, really, in their own personal lives have some sort of experience,

00:15:50.260 again, with the silencing that comes with the cultural chaos that's really plaguing this country,

00:15:56.900 whether it's in their corporate jobs, whether it is in academia, whether it's in healthcare,

00:16:00.780 I mean, whatever realm it seems to be, I mean, it seems like it's got us all by a chokehold.

00:16:08.400 But, I mean, what's the response you've had since you took this stand, since you filed your lawsuit?

00:16:13.440 Like, have you had, I mean, I'm sure you, I've seen the support online.

00:16:17.060 I hope that you're seeing that as well.

00:16:18.880 But with that, of course, comes negative.

00:16:21.200 So how has that been for you guys?

00:16:23.000 It's been great.

00:16:23.920 I have liberal friends who will disagree probably on almost every conservative principle that someone might hold.

00:16:30.100 But when it comes to this issue, they're all in.

00:16:33.420 They're like, yeah, Chris, obviously, you're doing the right thing.

00:16:36.800 So support has been pretty much universal.

00:16:40.600 And the culture is the pendulum swinging a little bit, right, with the election and how things have gone.

00:16:45.880 So I think I have some customers who I work with, and before they would whisper to me about this stuff,

00:16:50.960 they would make sure they'd look around and, you know, make sure that no one was hearing the conversation.

00:16:56.040 And they don't do that anymore.

00:16:57.340 So that's a positive sign, right?

00:16:58.620 Everybody gets it.

00:17:00.640 I think they're slowly all getting on board and recognizing that male athletes should not be competing against female athletes.

00:17:09.560 You mentioned beginning to get on board.

00:17:12.320 I mean, you guys were really, like, the first.

00:17:15.540 I mean, one of the first, if not the first, to start this growing boycott, which is what I call it,

00:17:21.260 when you call the word boy, growing boycott movement in women and girls' sports.

00:17:26.280 So how does it feel to know it's now catching fire?

00:17:28.880 We've seen this in volleyball.

00:17:30.300 Again, you have the safety aspect there you have to worry about.

00:17:33.680 In the Mountain West Conference, where five Division I NCAA teams decided to forfeit against San Jose State University.

00:17:40.700 We've seen it in West Virginia.

00:17:42.980 The shot put throwers.

00:17:44.160 I mean, five middle school girls.

00:17:46.040 They're so young.

00:17:46.720 I cannot believe this is a mantle that they now have to carry.

00:17:49.820 We've seen it in disc golf.

00:17:50.960 We've seen it in fencing just recently.

00:17:52.780 So how does it feel to kind of be that trailblazer and to now know it's catching fire?

00:17:57.700 Yeah, it feels really good to be able to stand up for something.

00:18:01.220 And you feel like you're on an island at the beginning.

00:18:04.360 But now it's like almost every day there's a new story where someone is standing up and saying,

00:18:10.180 hey, this isn't right.

00:18:11.680 And again, it feels, you know, is the wind at our backs?

00:18:15.300 A little bit, you know, it's not gale force yet, but it just feels like everybody is coalescing

00:18:22.060 around the idea that it's not right.

00:18:25.360 And I'm hoping with our case, hopefully it gets decided in the way that would help us out

00:18:29.820 and get us back into the league.

00:18:31.120 But I'm hoping that this issue will be put to bed in a couple of years and we'll just recognize that.

00:18:37.560 And I want to jump in just to congratulate the coach and the girls and the school.

00:18:42.180 You know, when it's popular and everybody's doing it, it's okay.

00:18:46.560 But when you're the first to jump out and everybody's criticizing you and saying, you know,

00:18:51.260 calling you all kinds of names and you say, look, this is what's right.

00:18:55.020 And I'm going to do what's right, regardless of the heat that I take, regardless of the penalty.

00:18:59.300 I mean, look at the penalty.

00:19:00.440 I think the worst I've ever seen across the country in all these instances.

00:19:03.820 You know, other teams, like you mentioned, have forfeited games and nothing ever happens to them here.

00:19:08.940 It was the most extreme penalty you can imagine.

00:19:12.180 So the fact that the school and the coach took this stand and stood by it when it wasn't popular,

00:19:17.700 to me, is a pretty cool thing.

00:19:19.000 I mean, I met, you know, a bunch of the girls this past week.

00:19:21.940 The basketball team came down to the court with us and we spent a couple days together.

00:19:25.880 And it's just a great example to them, you know, to be an adult like the coach is in the school and say,

00:19:31.080 look, there's going to be hard things in life and you should stand up for those things,

00:19:34.820 even if you're going to face some heat and you're going to have some difficulties.

00:19:37.500 So it's just it's just once I just wanted to call out the coach in the school just to say we're all proud of you guys for taking such a stand,

00:19:44.260 allowing us to stand there with you, because it's like you said, Raleigh, it flows.

00:19:48.320 And you've done the same thing, taking a stand, going across the country, speaking and doing all the activities you've been doing.

00:19:54.080 And so it's we just we just certainly appreciate that.

00:19:56.420 And sometimes it catches up to you.

00:19:57.760 And people always talk about whether you're on the right side of history or not.

00:20:00.620 But when you do the right thing, you always are.

00:20:03.380 Absolutely. Yeah. And those girls you mentioned, I mean, I think they were in desperate need of good leadership, 0.87

00:20:10.540 of people in those authority positions to protect them, because ultimately, I mean, as I see it as as a coach,

00:20:19.280 as a principal, as a teacher, that's that's part of the job description,

00:20:23.660 are protecting and defending those students, those student athletes.

00:20:28.680 So it's really you guys have been the embodiment of courage.

00:20:32.760 And what we know, what's been proven, whether it's this issue or any issue, is that courage begets courage.

00:20:38.600 And certainly strength in numbers. And that's what you guys have been able to really foster and build out.

00:20:44.620 So, I mean, I guess last thing for you, I guess, Dave, what's next for you guys?

00:20:49.420 What's the next step here? What can can we expect? How can we support you?

00:20:53.660 Yeah, I mean, so we're going to be hopefully a quick decision from the Court of Appeals.

00:20:59.180 And people may know that's the level right below the Supreme Court.

00:21:03.080 So hopefully they'll you know, they've seen the gravity of the punishment.

00:21:06.380 They mentioned it a couple of the judges at the argument.

00:21:08.780 So we're hopefully for an opinion pretty soon that'll get the school back in.

00:21:13.120 I mean, that's what we ask for is to put them back in all of the sports, boys and girls and all the activities.

00:21:18.100 So hopefully that happens. If it doesn't, then we'll take it up to the Supreme Court if we have to.

00:21:23.220 This is an important enough fight. It's a battle that's not over yet.

00:21:27.660 I think the tide is turning, but you still have a lot of people, as you mentioned, Riley, they're digging their heels in.

00:21:33.400 You know, the people running our schools, you have a lot of times the media, you have Hollywood, you know, there's so much.

00:21:40.060 Yeah. So much headwinds against this that we're just going to keep going.

00:21:43.040 And so hopefully we'll get a good opinion soon. If not, we'll just we'll just keep fighting until we do.

00:21:46.600 It's been brought to light recently what's been dubbed as these activist judges.

00:21:53.680 And I think that's what we've seen. I won't speak to your case specifically, of course, I don't want to hinder anything.

00:21:59.640 But across the board, what we have seen at virtually every level, local, I mean, all the way up to to federal.

00:22:07.100 I mean, we I think it really can only be described as activist judges.

00:22:12.180 So we will continue supporting you guys, of course, your efforts to preserve fairness, preserve safety, preserve the dignity of women and girls in sports and beyond.

00:22:23.060 And so thank you for for your fight, for your courage. We'll be watching.

00:22:28.440 Well, thanks for having us. I appreciate all that you do.

00:22:31.380 Of course. Thank you guys for tuning in to the Gains for Girls podcast.

00:22:35.640 We will be following this lawsuit, hoping and praying for the best.

00:22:40.280 Of course, you don't want something like this to make it all the way up to the Supreme Court, because that means it has failed in other courts.

00:22:47.840 But it has the the opportunity, the ability to really set the precedent.

00:22:52.480 So truthfully, I do hope it makes it to the Supreme Court.

00:22:57.160 Exciting stuff. Again, thank you guys for tuning in. Check us out at Outkick dot com.

00:23:01.140 That's where you'll find all things Gains for Girls. 1.00

00:23:03.900 And make sure you go to CozyEarth dot com.

00:23:06.820 Use my code Gains, G-A-I-N-E-S for 40 percent off your order sheets, pajamas, loungewear across the board.

00:23:14.480 Amazing stuff. I mean, you have this new sense of rejuvenation, embracing this sense of calmness, relaxation.

00:23:22.600 Check it out at CozyEarth dot com. We will see you guys again next week.

Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - April 30, 2025

The Harshest Punishment in Sports History — All for Telling the Truth

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