The Kneel Down Heard Around the World
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Summary
In this episode, we talk to Stephanie Turner, the fencer who took a knee when she realized she was competing against a male competitor in a recent national competition. She talks about her decision to take a knee, and why it was the right thing to do.
Transcript
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With a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms and a weighting depth of 900 millimeters,
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Hey guys, welcome back to the Gains for Girls podcast.
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As always, very glad, very grateful that you're here.
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You know it by now, but you can check out all things Gains for Girls at Outkick.com.
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That's where you can like, you can subscribe, and I want you to do that.
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You're not going to want to miss today's episode.
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We were talking to someone who has really garnered national attention for a position she's been
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thrusted into kind of unwillingly, involuntarily.
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This is not something she wanted to be doing, but she's done such a phenomenal job with the
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advancement of the fairness in women's sports movement.
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She's the fencer who I'm sure you've seen the viral clip of this incredibly brave young
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woman who is set to, you know, she's on the mat, and all of a sudden there's a male on it
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But she decided in those brief moments that she actually wasn't going to be fencing him.
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She decided to take a knee, ultimately sending the message of no, enough is enough.
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She wasn't going to allow this to happen to her.
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And since then, we have seen how she has taken steps to make sure this doesn't happen to any
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Check out this interview here with Stephanie Turner.
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Well, Stephanie, thank you for joining the Games for Girls podcast.
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It's awesome because on the show we have, I mean, world leaders and of course the legislative
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world and science, I mean, across the board, but it is my favorite to talk to people like
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you who have used their voice in this time where, again, it was unexpected.
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Like you weren't really, I imagine, really prepared for this.
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So before we get into anything, will you kind of fill us in a little bit about the sport
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Since it's a more niche sport, I think there's a lot of things people don't know.
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And more specifically, I think your background with the sport.
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Fencing is a niche sport in that a lot of people don't understand it, but it does have
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thousands of members, thousands of athletes, and we're growing exponentially, really.
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I've been fencing since I joined college club team back in 2014, 2013, I think.
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Fencing has just really been more of, has been a passion project of mine that I invest quite
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a lot of time in and money, and it's just been very important to me.
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I go to regional tournaments, national tournaments.
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I'm not the greatest, but it means a lot to me.
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Of course, I think a lot of people can resonate with spending time, right?
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Like any sport, it requires a significant amount of time and the sacrifices that you have to
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But money, that's really important too, because in our sport, swimming, or my sport, these
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suits that you wear, they cost like 500 bucks and they're good for 10 races.
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So I think the money part of it is, is a really, you know, it helps open people's eyes to the
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investment that you put in to, to compete and really to succeed in your sport.
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This, this moment that you had just a few weeks ago has gone like not just national, it's gone
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Talk about the, the, uh, events that led up to that, that moment that I'm specifically
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referring to, because truthfully, I think that visual of you taking this knee, having
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the, you know, the, the official looking down at you, having the man, the male competitor
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It is one of the most powerful visuals that we've seen in this fight for fairness and women's
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And I think more specifically, maybe when you learned that you would be fencing a male,
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So I'll just start from the day before in fencing.
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We have a system where we post all of our tournaments and we can see live tournament
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And it's part of my pre-competition routine to just check who's registered and just double
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And so I went and I saw on the registration list that Redmond Sullivan was there and I
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recognized him from a Redux article as being previously on the male team and now fencing
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I traveled down to Maryland and I was very disappointed to see that.
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So I didn't know whether he would be in my pools.
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And when you do pools, they recede you after your pool results and you do basically a March
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So there's no way of knowing, um, at least in this tournament that I would be able to fence
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Um, so when that night, when I found out I was freaking out, I was really sad.
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And, um, I was crying and I called one of my friends from church and we just prayed about
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And we said, I said, like, I'm thinking I might take a knee if I have to fence him.
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And if, if God puts you, um, him in your path, then that's what you'll do.
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And if not, you'll just let this opportunity go.
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And we'll just take that as a sign that God doesn't want you to do this.
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So I go to the tournament of kind of two minds.
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Like one, it's, I'm never going to fence him and I'm just going to have to stay focused
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and try to do my best or somewhere down the line, I'm going to meet him and I'll have
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And so after warming up for a couple hours, they were running late that day, they released
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And I just knew that that's what I was going to have to do.
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I had friends coming down from Philadelphia just to watch me.
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So I basically, I felt kind of guilty because I thought maybe they would be upset that they
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drove all the way down just to see me get black carded.
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But they actually turned out to be very supportive of me.
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So there's three different types of cards and fencing is a yellow card, which is a warning
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or red card, which is a point to your opponent.
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And any subsequent card that is like a yellow card or red card, it's just going to be another
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Your name gets excluded from the results and you get walked out of the venue.
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But a refusal to offense an opponent is one reason that you can get expelled.
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And then from there, you, any black card has to be investigated by the USFA and you have
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So my results came in and I am on probation for 12 months, so I can still compete.
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But if I get another black card, it would be serious consequences, apparently.
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This moment, again, that video that went viral, you see, I, do you call them an official in
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You see a referee coming up to you and speaking.
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He, the first time when I took the knee, he didn't know what, what was happening.
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So when he came over, I told him, um, this is, this person is a man, I'm a woman, and this
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And I refused to fence, um, used to fence this individual.
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And he went over to a ballot committee and I think he was kind of stunned, um, just to
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talk and refer to all the other referees and, uh, competition officials.
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And at that moment, that's when Redman comes up and asks me what's going on.
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And I say, I'm sorry, I have love and respect for you, but I will not fence you.
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And that's when he says, uh, well, okay, but there's a, I should let you know that there's
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a member of the board of directors here who supports me.
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And there's a policy that says I'm a woman and I can compete in this tournament.
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And then there's some time in between where basically every official gets spoken to.
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And, um, my referee who I've known actually for a very long time, uh, comes up to me and
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That's what I, that truthfully is, is my, in your interviews that you've done, how you
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explain it is, is so perfect because we have, I'll say people on the other side.
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Again, I don't really mean that in terms of, of, you know, the political aisle.
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I mean, like the side of common sense and the people who don't have common sense, the
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people on the other side have made this issue out to be a very complex one.
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And they say, it's hard, you know, there, there's a lot that goes into it.
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You say, I'm a woman, this is a man, this is a woman's tournament.
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So since this moment, have you had people reach out to you?
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Like, like maybe those in those, uh, you know, referee positions, officials, like other
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fencers, have you had people reach out to you and support and thank you for the stance
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I've had, um, most people from my club, lots of, uh, young, the young girls and women from
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my club have reached out to say that they support me fully and that they were happy that
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I've had, um, old teammates from five to 10 plus years ago, reach out and say, thank
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I've also had family members from abroad and locally contact me and say that they were very
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So it's been quite a lot with regards to like the language.
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I did plan what I was going to say if, if in that case happened, because I don't want
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to make this some sort of complex issue about gender politics.
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The truth of the matter is that he is a man and I'm a woman.
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And to be honest, I don't know whether he identifies as a trans woman or non-binary or gender fluid.
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And that's why it's all the semantics games complicates this issue.
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So the truth of the matter is that he's a man and this is the woman's going to talk about.
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Uh, people maybe who even agree typically with this stance, but they say, look, men, uh, don't
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on average possess natural genetic advantages over women and fencing.
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Because again, as someone who, you know, lifelong athlete, I can see the advantages that would
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make a male advantageous in a sport like fencing.
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Um, so fencing is a form of martial arts as a combat sport.
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So things like distance control, power, speed, they, and reaction time and stamina all make
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And when you're fencing somebody who is quite tall, Redmond's quite tall, I would say maybe
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I would say for a woman, I'm about five, seven, maybe that's tall average.
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But when you're fencing a man, and I have fenced really tall men, they, it feels like a tank
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And in fencing, we have like two components that really make up, uh, the way we compete.
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And with blade work, if you're working with a man, he has a lot more upper body strength,
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which can mean he can take away the blade from your hand.
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If he decides to, you know, deflect or, um, just, we call it beating, which is where it's
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It completely diminishes my ability to do certain actions when I'm fencing a man of superior upper
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body strength and then lower body strength, you know, being able to propel yourself forward.
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Uh, that's definitely going to be more advantageous for men.
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So I understand, I read in an interview, uh, that you're not someone who has always aligned
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So can you talk about why really you no longer associate yourself with the democratic party?
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I should say the, my entire family is blue and that I come from a very blue area.
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I was born in Washington, DC, and I was raised in Maryland.
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Um, during the pandemic, it all really started with you and with Leah Thomas.
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I think there were seeds before, um, before this with like, say the caravans, I think the
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caravans, there were some migrant caravans that were coming out around 2019, late 2019,
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early 2020, um, that I had some discussions with, with about my family and things weren't
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And I just kept feeling more and more distant from, you know, friends and family who were
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Um, but with this issue, with your issue in particular, it just broke me to hear that
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there were women who were so afraid to come forward about a man being in their locker room.
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And it also broke me that I had been following the Leah Thomas story before the NCAA finals because
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And so, um, I mean, I was aware that, that he was competing, um, maybe like in early 2021,
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I think there was an article that was written about it and I sent it over to, um, some friends
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And I was like, well, I don't have any other articles because nobody else is reporting it.
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And it's either the results screenshots are real or everything is totally fabricated and
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And then it was the commentary of like, well, nobody actually believes this and it's not
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This is just insane to even have started to begin with.
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And then to find out, to, to finally be able to see articles written by, you know, uh, groups
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like Reuters or maybe more liberal leaning publications, they left out major parts that
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That wasn't in a lot of the initial reports about him.
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Like it was withholding obvious information that people would be interested in, in an attempt
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to protect this individual rather than women and girls.
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And then just knowing that there were politicians who were willing to lie about what a man and
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what a woman was and what's right and wrong with regard to that issue and punish women
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It made me wonder what else they could be lying to me about.
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And then on top of that, they really missed a huge opportunity because this issue really
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And the only side speaking about it were those who were a little bit more right leaning.
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So that's where I, you know, I, maybe I came there for a little bit of the discussion
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on trans politics and then it became discussions of other things and it became an open door
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You speak for so many when you say that though.
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I imagine, you know, you're not the only person who maybe would, would call themselves a lifelong
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liberal, but they just feel like they've been lied to in your own words, using the word
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I think that's, again, I think that's a perfect, um, I mean, it's the smugness as well.
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Um, you're, you're going to all the wrong sources.
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And then anything I provide is basically bogus.
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It's not real or, you know, um, so we're worried about your mental health because you're reading
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And you make a good point too, in saying like, if we're willing to lie about what men and
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women are, like there are no limits at that point.
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There is nothing they holistically as a society can't get us to deny or adhere to if we will
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It's probably like one of the first truths that any person ever learns.
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A baby knows the difference between a man and a woman.
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You know, we, we all come to know that there are only two.
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So to, to lie about the, one of the first truths about humanity is, is so epic that it, and
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So this is on USA fencing's website, a list of do not allow states and preferred states.
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For those of you who are watching or listening, you guessed it.
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They're based on how well each state scores on the equality map, which is based on, again,
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like how progressive each state is based on their LGBTQ laws and abortion laws.
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Stephanie, why is abortion laws relevant as it pertains to fencing or any sport for that
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And to very briefly touch on what the do not allow states are, um, they have it listed
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here as Florida, Indiana, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Oklahoma, South Carolina,
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South Dakota, Tennessee, and Texas, which I think the funniest thing about this, I believe
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Florida, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas are the top four states that people are flocking
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to like, like moving to from the states on the preferred list, which include California,
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Colorado, DC, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada,
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New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington.
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So why does this matter in fencing or any sport for that matter?
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These, these states have been selected from my understanding based on a very, very small
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group within the USFA who want to impose their own personal politics on the sport of fencing.
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And it frankly impacts fencing's reach, um, to athletes that may be from those sports,
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from those states who want to compete, but now have to travel very far to these other blue
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We're, we're not going to end up developing the sport of fencing in those states very well
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if we say we can't compete in them and country you're, yes, you are.
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And, um, it's also quite striking because sometimes they do have cold tournaments in Texas and Florida.
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Um, I'm not sure why they sometimes bend the rules, but it's very rare.
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And, um, but, and we end up usually going to like the same states over and over for our national
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Which speaking of Texas, Ken Paxton, the attorney general who has been, he's been on this show
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before he is someone who has, has really been a champion for this cause, pursuing litigation
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against the previous administration, the department of education, the NCAA now USA fencing.
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Uh, he's announced that his office has launched an investigation, uh, into USA fencing for potentially
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violating state law and even specifically citing you.
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Um, he said this investigation will uncover if USA fencing engaged in any false, deceptive, uh, and misleading
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and defend you all as women when that just really hasn't been the case,
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Um, I think everybody has been scared for years to speak out about this and, um, maybe
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they thought that it could be resolved quietly, but it really could not, um, for various different
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I think this particular investigation is quite possibly why they wanted to avoid having tournaments
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in states that would push back because if such an incident were to happen, then maybe they would
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not be allowed to implement such policies, but that's maybe that's speculation, but I think they've
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been pretty explicit about that on their online website, that they avoid states because of their
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And I wonder how that impacts with, you know, funding of the sport and, and their, their claim
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to being inclusive and wanting to reach as many people as possible, because you're not really
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being inclusive if you're, you know, exiling half the country.
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And when I've grown to learn that when they use this word inclusion, it really, it really
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Um, you mentioned the support that you have felt and seen again on social media.
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Um, have you been on the receiving end of that at all?
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Um, I say this not to like, uh, not to boast or anything, but it's very rare.
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I think at this point in time, you came out at a very different time and I'm just so grateful
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for you that you did, I really was following you very closely.
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Um, but there's, I think people want to see an end to this.
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So the vast majority of what I've been receiving has been largely positive.
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The only backlash I've really seen is from a very niche part of the fencing community where
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My friend just like my friends sometimes like screenshot what they've seen, but even there
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Um, I think the Facebook Reddit page, somebody, one of my friends, uh, sent me it.
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If you create a space online, social space where you can remove people based on speech,
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then you're going to end up with a liberal echo chamber.
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So they had some deleted comments on there, of course, but they, their, most of their commentary
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was like, um, it's bigotry to not want to offend somebody who's a man, or it was too
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dramatic or she could have just like not signed up for, she could have just like, uh, gone
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up to about committee and said she didn't want to fence.
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She didn't have to do it right there in the strip.
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And I just want to say to those people, I wasn't really left with much of a choice.
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I mean, there have been a lot, there has been a lot of attempts to, uh, get this on the table
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for discussion within the USFA, USA, USFA and USFA board of directors.
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And it has been shot down repeatedly, um, in both, you know, online spaces and through
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I know that people are trying to get this, um, to be discussed at the very least, and
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So my statement was really just to force the conversation.
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The black card was meant to be an investigation that would force the question.
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Well, so many people are grateful for that viral moment.
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Uh, we've seen now Abby Wilson, a professional disc golfer following really the lead that,
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Uh, she ultimately did a similar action in her sport of disc golf where she gets on the
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course, you know, acts like she's going to throw it and she steps off because she was
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set to compete against a man by the name of Natalie Ryan.
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Now this week, you were named the XXXY courage wins award recipient.
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Um, can you talk about this award and really all that came with it?
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And number two, uh, I think it shows the great work that XXXY is doing to, to honor, uh, and
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really showcase those who are taking courageous actions like yourself.
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So XXXY, um, wants to help women who decide to come forward about this to try to encourage
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women to come out rather than, uh, the norm, rather than having to deal with all the backlash
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Um, there are quite a lot of women who are witnessing, you know, men and women, men in
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their sports, and they're trying to save their own sports on their own.
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And it's hard to come out because you essentially nuke your whole life.
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You know, you can't, you can face social ostracism.
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You could have training disrupted and you could have, you know, officials or referees now not
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being very favorable toward you for the rest of your life.
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There's no end to the backlash that you may face, or you could have threats on your life.
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Like I know in your, in your case, you have had such things happen to you.
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Um, so, you know, it's not fun being on the receiving end of this.
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And it, it, it helps to have people who acknowledge that, that it takes, you know, some sort of
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sacrifice to do, to bring attention to an issue.
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And I appreciate XXXY for their, um, acknowledgement.
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I believe there was a monetary prize too, if you will.
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Uh, so again, that's just really all the more reason to shop at the truth fits.com or XXXY
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They have these awesome shirts right now too, that say, um, boycott, uh, and emphasis is
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on the word boy there with those letters being in capital.
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So really great stuff again, to support athletes like you, like Abby Wilson, like the volleyball
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But, but last question for you, do you think this is what it's going to take, right?
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More and more women boycotting or taking a knee, um, like you so bravely did.
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I think that's pretty much the next evolution of this.
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Um, I think it's probably going to take more than just calling in advance and saying that
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you forfeit, you have to make it visible and show people what's on the line and what it
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So I encourage women that if you have a volleyball tournament and there's a man in there, show
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And then just the whole team taking me and we'll see how far this goes when people start
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I wish truthfully, Stephanie, I had your bravery when I was in the situation that I was.
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And of course, I believe everything happens for a reason.
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And I, I believe in that divine intervention that was there and how God has his hand on
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me and, and how all of this was, you know, for his sovereign purpose.
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Of course I've developed and I have become more confident and secure in myself.
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And of course, within the argument, um, but to, to be that person for so many to look up
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So thank you for everything that you have done for what you will.
00:29:46.220
I imagine continue doing, uh, for, for your teammates, for yourself, but I think more
00:29:51.940
importantly for the next generation, we are so grateful.
00:29:56.700
Thank you guys for tuning in to today's episode.
00:30:00.040
I hope we see advancements out of this investigation.
00:30:03.120
We have seen now launched from Ken Paxton, the attorney general of Texas.
00:30:07.260
Uh, the craziest thing to me about this whole conversation we just had something I didn't
00:30:11.800
realize before doing research for this was again, that on USA's fencing's website, they
00:30:17.340
have a list of do not allow states and preferred states based on an equality map.
00:30:25.840
And sports and fencing, uh, again, it does not.
00:30:32.700
That's where you will find all things gains for girls.