The Male Invasion on Female Sports Continues...
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Summary
In this episode, we discuss the growing number of women who have come forward to say, "No, I'm not going to compete in women's sports unless I'm allowed to compete on the basis of my gender." In this episode of the podcast, we talk with Paula Scanlon, a former University of Pennsylvania swimmer who competed on the women's team for four years and won a national title.
Transcript
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With a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms and a weighting depth of 900 millimeters,
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Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Gains for Girls podcast.
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If you're watching today, you see I'm in a hotel room.
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It has been really back on the road these past few months.
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This is something I've been doing for about two years now,
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especially leading up to November 5th prior to the election.
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It's really just become a passion of mine, a goal of mine,
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I think we're a demographic that's often left out of these
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I've been to about 80 or so different college campuses so far.
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We're going to University of Arizona, San Francisco State University.
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If you can remember, this was the university where, I mean,
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I was attacked and held for ransom for hours through the middle of the night.
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All the while, the police, the school, they did nothing to help release me.
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that they want to recreate the same protest again.
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We're going to University of Maryland this week.
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So really, really exciting stuff, but felt the need to explain
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Today's episode, I'm sure you've seen some of the stories that have surfaced
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surrounding women's sports and the allowance of men into these women's sports
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But I hope you see the light at the end of the tunnel
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because we have started to finally see women ultimately saying no.
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I'm not even going to give you the chance to discriminate against me
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everything that Title IX was passed to prevent from happening
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and really why women's sports were created in the first place.
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We saw it with Stephanie Turner in fencing, which we're going to talk about.
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We saw it with Abby Wilson in professional disc golf,
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That's who we're going to be talking about this with.
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I'm sure you see her on social media all the time.
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She was the swimmer from University of Pennsylvania,
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with Will Thomas, now known as Leah Thomas, right?
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The six foot four man who swam three years on the men's team at UPenn
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before deciding to transition to the women's team
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where he would then go on to win a national title.
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But I really think we have a lot to thank him for.
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He really kickstarted this conversation and allowed a lot of people to have their eyes open.
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People who maybe call themselves moderates or independents
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or even people who would label themselves as lifelong liberals.
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We appreciate you for that aspect, I guess, if you want to word it that way.
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Anyways, we also saw this week in pool billiards in the,
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I believe it was the Ultimate Pool Women's Pro Series Championship.
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We saw two men face off in the women's championship.
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Ten years ago, this would have been a Babylon Bee headline,
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an SNL skit, a South Park episode, but now it's real life.
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We are going to talk about all of that and more today with Paula Scanlon.
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Well, Paula, welcome to the Gains for Girls podcast.
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Super exciting to have you back on the show here.
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We've seen a lot this past, really these past few weeks,
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but there seems to be a growing movement now in women's sports
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and I think the willingness to refuse to ignore reality
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that we haven't seen really this entire time, bar just a few instances.
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So what that means is we've seen a lot of women who are willing to boycott
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with, of course, emphasis on the word boy there.
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The most notable, I think, that's gotten really national attention
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She was competing at a U.S. Junior Women's Qualifying Event,
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Like when you're competing for an Olympic level qualifying event,
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So she got on the mat, realized she would be fencing a man
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meaning that she's unable to participate in the rest of the tournament.
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This is, of course, the man that she is talking to.
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And I thought it was so awesome because it surfaced afterwards what she said to this man.
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And she explained it so simply and beautifully.
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I'm sorry, but I won't compete against this individual.
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Some have made this issue out to be a complex one.
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So I guess my question for you, Paula, is why now?
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Again, this is three years since you and I have had to deal with this.
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Actually, you longer than that because it was an individual on your team.
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I mean, I think that the climate's really changed.
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I mean, we saw so many people support this issue.
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And I think what's been most interesting to me about this issue is it's not even left and right.
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I mean, we've seen people come across the aisle and say that they support us on this issue.
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I mean, I'm sure you have, you know, plenty of people that don't agree with you politically
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I mean, even the New York Times itself is admitting that 67% of even Democrats in this poll
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said they don't support men and women's sports.
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An interesting thing I like to bring up, I was helping a friend shoot street content the
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other day in New York City, and he was trying to ask New Yorkers, liberal New Yorkers,
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name one good thing that Donald Trump has done.
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And New Yorkers on the street agree that men do not belong in women's sports and agree
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with us on this issue, even if they hate Trump, even if they voted for Kamala Harris.
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And I think what I've seen the most is Stephanie not only did that, but she also went and talked
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I mean, that is something that wasn't really happening before.
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Athletes were not comfortable doing that in the past.
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I know even myself and you and other girls who competed in the NCAA championship when
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we did in that season, they weren't willing to go and do that.
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They weren't willing to be affiliated with people who are viewed on the right.
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And so I think it really just shows how much this climate has changed and how much having
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Trump in and the results of the past election and all of that has really changed the climate
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I would go as far to say probably 90-10, if not even, again, more exaggerated than that.
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This is just not something that the general public, right?
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Moms and dads of their own young daughters, it's just not something that I think people
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We've seen several Charlie Kirk events now, too, where you see all these young people.
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Even today, I think, or this week, he was in South Carolina, which was awesome.
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It's pouring down rain, and he's got crowds of what feels like thousands there to listen
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So really exciting stuff, especially among the youth.
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And yeah, you mentioned, again, three years ago, I think the scariest thing in the world
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Actually, I think it's a badge of honor to be labeled as a transphobe because, again, it
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So can you speak to some of the pressures that female athletes face?
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Because a lot of people who maybe you can call them boomers, right?
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So what are some of those pressures for female athletes, especially female athletes in the
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I mean, we we know firsthand really what they did to us during that season, again, because
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There were people to turn to to talk to us about this.
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And our university told us if we ever spoke out against it, we would be labeled as a transphobe
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and anyone would be able to look you up on the Internet and see what you've said.
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I mean, they told us it was the next civil rights movement.
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They said, if you do not want this man on your team or undressing in your locker room,
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that it is equivalent to not wanting to undress with someone based on their race in the 1960s.
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And they were we were continually reminded that this male athlete was so oppressed and
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he was going through so much and we had to accommodate him.
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And that is a message that was sent to us continually.
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And I think part of the reason why myself, my teammates and other people in the Ivy League
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felt that and actually listened to those threats, even though they were empty.
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Look, if someone doesn't want to hire you for your opinion that men not belong in women's
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sports, that's not a place you want to work to begin with.
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But we didn't have anyone to really look to to see where this issue was.
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I mean, I think Icons was the group that circulated that video originally, right?
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That organization came out of the Leah Thomas situation.
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If you look at the 2020 election, was this issue even once mentioned at all?
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And so I think it just shows, again, how why it's so important to have real faces and
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real people speak out and not just on this issue, but really everything, because it it
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And yes, while I wish there were more female athletes that are doing it, I would say there are
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I think I could you and I could sit here and probably for the rest of this podcast actually
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list off female athletes that have spoken against this.
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I mean, no one playing in the WNBA or nobody playing in the professional women's soccer
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But I think we could list off probably at least 100 or 200 athletes that have spoken out against
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And it's it's such an interesting point you make about those professional athletes, the
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likes of Simone Biles and Caitlin Clark and Serena and Venus Williams, who have already
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I think it was in 2013 with David Letterman saying, look, men and women's tennis is a totally
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But of course, that was before it was considered transphobic to, again, acknowledge biological
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Women arguably have the most to lose, but also the most to gain from from taking the
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And we just haven't seen it from those, I think, really, really powerhouse figures in
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You mentioned her courage and how it's inspiring.
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Following Stephanie, we had a professional disc golfer, which admittedly, I don't know a lot
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Learn to now realize there's a lot of money in women's disc golf or maybe just disc golf
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in general, because there's a woman by the name of Abby Wilson.
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And she walks off the course because a male is following her, a male by the name of Natalie
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Ryan, who has already sued to to for his allowance into the women's division.
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But I learned over the past, I think, 19 tournaments that he's been involved in, he's taken over
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So I think all of this to say that courage certainly begets courage.
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We saw the Division I NCAA women's volleyball teams, five teams, ultimately decide to forfeit.
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I mean, these are middle schoolers who ultimately decided last year in shot put that they weren't
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Um, and again, dubbed as Project Boycott, which I think is, is a good name for it.
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Um, there's another story I want to mention to you too, that just came up this week.
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And admittedly, again, don't know a whole lot about pool.
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We have our time on and inside of a pool, a swimming pool, but don't know a lot about
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Um, but there's this article, it was Redux, I think, who really broke the story.
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They do a phenomenal job in highlighting a lot of these issues, again, that affect women
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Um, but it says breaking two men will face each other for a women's championship title
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at the ultimate pool women's pro series event, uh, tonight in the UK, Harriet Haynes and
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So for clarity, both men, they beat all female competitors to take the top spots in the women's
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Paula, why do we even have women's sports if in the championship are two men?
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I I'm laughing, not because this is funny because it's not funny, but it's so ridiculous.
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And so a lot of the, and I'm sure your comment section is probably a million times worse than
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anything I even saw, but there were people commenting, well, they don't have an athletic
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Then what is the point of having a women's category if women are not going to compete
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If we're, I don't care if it's chess, I don't care if it's billiards, I don't care if it's
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dart throwing, you're going to have a women's category.
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It needs to be for women and that needs to be defined.
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And I don't understand why this is controversial.
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And there are people who are saying, again, whatever.
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And, you know, it was so funny because we didn't even have to watch that situation, the
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final, because we knew a man was going to win the competition because it was between
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I mean, the UK has really lost it in a lot of ways.
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I mean, every story I see out of the UK, I feel like I just feel bad for the people from
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I understand why, why Louie wanted to marry you and come to America.
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If it's not going to be protected, we know what a woman is and should be defined.
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It's such a good point because my understanding where there were 32 competitors, right?
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These two were men, but you do, I did have tons of people, even people who like typically
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They were in my comment section while saying, look, safety is not really an issue here.
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If you want to have a conversation about creating, you know, making pool or billiards gender
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But so long as there is a woman's category, it should be reserved for women.
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Despite the fact that people say there's no advantage, then why out of the 32 competitors
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I think if we were to have a gender neutral pool, I guess, I guess the sport of pool being
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gender neutral, I think even so, we would see men on top, women at the bottom.
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I think, yes, actually, because we've played pool as my family, you know, my immediate family
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One time my mom and I teamed up against my dad and my brother.
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And my mom, my mom is like an avid tennis player.
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I haven't done the studies or seen the research.
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But I'd like to believe that there's some advantage men have in billiards.
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I feel like things like even wingspan and how long your reach is, I feel like those things
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And I've had people come after me saying, oh, you don't think that women can compete
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Again, it has nothing to do with intelligence level.
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It has everything to do with the fact there is women's chess, right?
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I think this story took, made the best man win to like a whole new level.
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And to your point, like you're laughing, right?
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Because again, I think even five years ago, definitely a decade ago, this was like, like
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the funny ha ha South Park episode, where you have a big burly man atop the podium, and
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he's got the gold shiny medal, and he's wearing his little leotard, and he's pushing the woman
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off, again, that's, that's like now turned into a documentary for, I mean, for our lives
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and, you know, these stories that we keep seeing.
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I don't know if you saw, I went to OU, Oklahoma this past week, and it was awesome.
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They had to turn many students away because it was so well attended.
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Of course, there's protests outside as it normally goes.
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But it was amazing because the OU softball team came, which they've won, I think, the
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past four national championships in women's softball.
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They're in the middle of their season following me being on campus because their team decided
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Several members of the team attended Riley Gaines' speech earlier this week.
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She spoke highly of you and then spoke exclusively to the team after that event.
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Thoughts on her comments and the team's presence at that event?
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But the fact that our team is there, it's their right, whether they want to go or not.
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I think she did too, but I think it's also unfair to put the coach in that position.
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I mean, it's not like the girls were making any statement.
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It's not like they're currently boycotting a male athlete on their softball team or on an
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I mean, and the way that it was asked, I think he was trying to make her uncomfortable.
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He didn't, it wasn't just like a, it's so great Riley came to your campus, which is how
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it should be presented with you going to their campus.
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But I, I got a sense that this guy was unhappy with you being there and wanted to try to call
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And I think that, uh, she answered that really well.
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And I saw the photos of you with the softball team and I know OU softball is awesome.
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I was friends with some softball players in college and they would always talk about that
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Um, and so I was really happy to see that they attended your event and I'm grateful to know
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that they appreciate you fighting for their sports and for them to have an opportunity to
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continue to win championships playing other women.
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Like how he framed the question again, they're in the middle of their season.
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Like they could have asked, the reporter could have asked questions pertaining to the previous
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Like almost try to pickle the coach in this corner, which she was like, look, I support my
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And I think it goes without saying sports are the one place, like you go to abandon all
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Like it's meant to be a very unifying experience.
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And of course, that's just not the way it's gone over the past few years.
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I think dealing with BLM, I know you were an athlete during that time, uh, where we had
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to wear, you know, shirts that, that talked about, I mean, just crazy stuff, which I'm like,
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Because again, people don't realize like, first of all, we're like a women's swim team.
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Wearing these shirts at a swim meet that were mandatory, really crazy stuff.
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Of course it's become divisive, but it really shouldn't be.
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Um, and I appreciate the coach again, just, just being pretty blunt and saying, I support
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I bet you didn't really feel that from your college coach, did you?
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When you're at a school like OU or even, even you at Kentucky, right?
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You had, you felt like there was support from your athletic director.
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Um, you felt that there was support for the female athletes.
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And I think that really was one of the bigger differences that I've noticed.
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I think the fact that again, even these athletes, um, feel comfortable coming to, to your event.
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Um, I remember I went to the university of Florida last year.
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I'm not even going to say which team she was on, but an athlete on one of the teams there,
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uh, was there and she was accidentally wearing her team merch.
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And she's told me that she got really nervous that someone was going to take a picture of
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her at my speaking event and cancel her for being there.
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And again, UF is also a really good school, right?
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They're playing in the, uh, NCAA March madness final, great sports school.
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And those athletes feel even at some of these bigger schools that they're not fully supported.
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So I think it's, you know, that was a year ago.
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I think things are changing a little bit, but again, OU is such a powerhouse.
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I can see why they're such a winning team because they actually have a coach that cares about
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Um, you know, I don't think that's talked about enough is how, you know, a good coach
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And it really is about creating a culture on their team that allows that.
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And I, I clearly, um, see that the OU softball team has that culture and that's why they're
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I think there definitely is a direct correlation between that style of coaching and of course
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I mean, any of the Ivy leagues and what you guys faced during all of the Leah, Will Thomas
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And again, you felt you faced it much longer than we had to much longer than the public
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I mean, even realizes, but it's pretty cool because as of, I think a few weeks ago, uh,
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the Trump administration paused $175 million in federal funding to UPenn over its policies
00:23:34.780
on trans athletes, again, specifically citing concerns about Title IX compliance.
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So I think my, my question out of this, number one, I didn't realize that the public funded
00:23:50.380
So most college campuses actually state, even public, like obviously state schools have
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So most Ivy leagues do take a portion of federal funding and the reasoning for it is because
00:24:04.580
of research or they're, you know, they're doing research on, you know, things like stem
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But yeah, I think a lot of people probably didn't realize that even private institutions
00:24:19.780
No idea, but to me, again, knowing the type of people who graduate to UPenn and who ultimately
00:24:27.760
give back to UPenn, I mean, they must receive billions of dollars in endowments, right?
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I think that again, Trump did that to make a statement.
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I'm beyond grateful to him for his leadership on that.
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But that's a drop in the bucket of the $22 billion endowment.
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And ironically, the day after the 175 million federal funding pause announcement, I get a
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phone call from the University of Pennsylvania donation line asking me as an alum to give
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I genuinely wish I was making this up actually the day after.
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And I received the call and I burst out laughing because I was like, this is not real.
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I hope you told them like, look, your university, I mean, it changed the trajectory of your life.
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And it's, I'm sure you've had like, I know you've had amazing opportunities and, and you've
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met amazing people and you've gotten to go cool places.
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And so while yes, there have doors that have been open for you because of UPenn's negligence
00:25:33.600
and mistreatment to you and to women, it's not what you plan for yourself.
00:25:37.580
Well, you can definitely say the same too, Riley, but it's a, I mean, the NCAA, it's
00:25:45.700
Of course, I'm angry at Penn for the way they handled things.
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I think the biggest thing that they did that made me realize really where they stood on
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this was nominating Leah Thomas for NCAA woman of the year.
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I think that showed that they doubled down on what they believed in and that they truly
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That showed me Penn's true colors, but I think what we saw in this and what we're continuing
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to see, and not just on this issue, but really what's going on here is just these institutions,
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these people that are in positions of power, these people that you trust to watch over
00:26:17.800
your kids or educate you or do the right thing, right?
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And I think that that's really something that Trump has been targeting in his current presidency.
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Again, with this decision for Penn for clapping back and doing this women's sports executive
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order, really forcing the NCAA hand and forcing them to change their policy, which we don't
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even have to get into what that policy is because of course, flawed and problematic as it always
00:26:44.320
is because the NCAA has sat on their butts for many years, knowing that female athletes
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are suffering and didn't want to do anything about it.
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But ultimately, I think that what we're seeing is just changing that and people are opening
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their eyes and stopping trusting and they don't trust these institutions anymore.
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And I think that that's something I'm grateful for.
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I think we have so much work, something else I've noticed.
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And, you know, I can ask, you know, you probably have a better insight on this, but the divide
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now that we're seeing really between these red and blue states.
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And so now after these executive order is great.
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You know, girls in states like Florida and Texas have higher chances of having fair sport competitions.
00:27:22.680
But then if you go out to California and the West Coast, they're calling themselves essentially
00:27:27.400
sanctuary states for trans athletes and trying to find loopholes and continuing to allow men
00:27:32.680
to compete against girls, even in the middle school level.
00:27:41.600
And I think it's now just more red versus blue, trying to get into these states and really
00:27:48.740
Do you think like amidst all of the wins and the success that we've had following number
00:27:55.380
one, November 5th, winning the election, really this this huge red tidal wave that I think
00:28:00.680
many of us expected in 2022 that but we didn't really get.
00:28:08.320
Do you think amidst all of this, especially the wins following January 20th, do you think
00:28:13.740
Are becoming complacent because, again, you can bring up Wisconsin, which I know you've
00:28:20.160
done a ton of work on, working with Early Vote Action, Scott Presser's group, everything
00:28:24.840
that's that's been done, of course, Pennsylvania now targeting New Jersey.
00:28:31.360
But while, again, there there were wins to be had, we won three out of the four, I think,
00:28:36.140
major things, one of those being voter ID, which is is huge.
00:28:40.100
Do you think but we lost the Supreme Court seat?
00:28:43.520
Do you think conservatives are becoming complacent amidst all of the wins?
00:28:49.780
And I think that that's even what we're dealing with on our issue.
00:28:53.120
You know, I taught obviously so many people in my personal life have called me after,
00:29:05.080
And then I'm like, oh, yeah, maybe, you know, like this is a great win.
00:29:07.720
And then the next day, it's like there's 15 track meets in the state of California.
00:29:12.100
And there's a boy who's jumping, you know, 10 inches above the girls in the high jump
00:29:19.160
It's like, OK, no, it's not over, unfortunately.
00:29:23.740
And I think that's part of the problem is we're seeing all of these wins.
00:29:27.460
People are going to think it's just not going to happen.
00:29:29.420
And so my message really to everyone is to continue to just be aware, to stay vigilant
00:29:34.080
for this, to say, you know, even if the rules say that a boy can't compete, watch out for
00:29:39.920
You can send your daughter off to college and what they're seeing in Ithaca, New York, right?
00:29:47.980
And I mean, you can explain this probably better.
00:29:49.820
I don't have maybe as many details as you do, but isn't there a boy rowing on an Ithaca
00:29:55.100
Yeah, well, even that fencer fenced at Wagner College.
00:30:01.980
There are many more examples to cite across lacrosse and field hockey and soccer and even
00:30:07.820
Like, like there are so many other stories to highlight.
00:30:10.240
But yeah, the NCAA have remained total cowards.
00:30:14.960
Of course, I mean, and that's and that's really where we are.
00:30:21.240
Obviously, the midterms are, you know, next year.
00:30:23.620
I mean, we could lose seats and then, you know, there can be room for policies to sort
00:30:28.440
of get passed through that could be harmful to us as, you know, not necessarily in this
00:30:35.140
issue, but other issues and just being, you know, Americans and wanting things that, you
00:30:45.000
But I do think, again, this issue and the one thing my takeaway from this entire issue
00:30:49.360
is really just how important it is if you see something to say something.
00:30:53.620
Because how many people have been empowered by other people doing this and we've been
00:30:58.620
able to provide resources and even the boycott project boycott thing that you kind of marketed,
00:31:04.860
You were able to give girls T-shirts and make them feel like they were part of something
00:31:11.220
And I think that that really is the biggest thing and probably the most valuable thing that
00:31:15.920
we've been able and all of us who have spoken out about this have been able to do.
00:31:19.240
And so, you know, of course, we're still going to deal with this.
00:31:25.460
But I am grateful, again, to getting to know these girls and really help them through this.
00:31:31.260
And again, I think you've probably seen even more girls than I have.
00:31:34.380
And so, you know, you can probably be thankful for that, too.
00:31:38.880
Well, it's a growing number of women are being impacted, but I think a growing number of women
00:31:47.760
You can go to XXXYAthletics.com or TheTruthFits.com and you can look up the boycott shirt there.
00:31:54.640
It's a wonderful way to, again, support those women who have been brave enough to put their
00:31:59.880
name and put their face to something like this.
00:32:03.040
And I say bravery because even still today, it requires bravery, right?
00:32:06.520
Stephanie Turner, the fencer, has talked about some of the hardships that she has faced
00:32:10.560
since taking this stand, including problems with her job, again, losing friends, being,
00:32:17.780
I mean, she admitted that she feels like she just ended her career.
00:32:21.940
She spoke to the anxiety that she's dealt with for years because of the threats of violence
00:32:26.280
that they have faced for daring to oppose this man.
00:32:31.220
You can support those girls by going to TheTruthFits.com and getting your own boycott shirt.
00:32:36.640
So, Paula, thank you for everything that you've been doing.
00:32:40.660
Again, you're doing amazing work now on this issue and way beyond this issue.
00:32:45.300
So just very grateful for you and for being a stronghold in New York where it's very, very
00:33:02.220
But yeah, no, I truly Riley, though, and I think everyone who's going to be listening
00:33:13.300
And, you know, you did, you took something that we all went through, right?
00:33:16.880
And you made it something great by giving, again, this network of supporting people.
00:33:20.840
And if there's one takeaway really to take from all of this is how being courageous can
00:33:26.180
help other people and then you can make good of something that's not so good.
00:33:35.400
And I know all 50 states eventually will ban this.
00:33:38.300
And then 20 years from now, we're going to say everybody in the 2020s were crazy.
00:33:45.220
Wait, cutting off healthy body parts of children?
00:33:50.360
We look forward to having you on sometime again soon.
00:33:55.420
Thank you guys for tuning into the Gains for Girls podcast.
00:33:59.000
I do believe there's this level of complacency that's been developed, which is almost inevitable
00:34:05.040
when you see all of the wins, when you see all of the success.
00:34:08.200
But the good news is it's finally being exposed.
00:34:10.660
But the bad news is it's really just the tip of the iceberg.
00:34:17.860
They do not allow themselves to be steamrolled.
00:34:21.220
I think we could take a page from their playbook.
00:34:22.740
As always, you can check out all things Gains for Girls at Outkick.com.
00:34:30.660
You get these episodes every single week, sometimes even multiple times a week.