Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - The NCAA's Flawed Definitions

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00:00:24.820 Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Games for Girls podcast.

00:00:28.200 As always, be sure to check us out at OutKick.com.

00:00:31.080 That's where you can get all things Games for Girls, 1.00

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00:00:40.400 As you probably know at this point, a few weeks ago,

00:00:43.180 President Trump signed an executive order ultimately banning men from competing in women's sports.

00:00:47.960 Novel concept, I know.

00:00:49.880 But what we have seen following this executive order,

00:00:52.540 which was so beautifully and thoroughly written, by the way,

00:00:54.980 we have seen states, number one, states who are simply unwilling to comply,

00:00:59.200 who have publicly declared, actually, that they're going to ignore the law.

00:01:02.780 States like Minnesota, Michigan, Maine, Connecticut, Washington, Oregon, of course, California.

00:01:08.340 What is the commonality between these states?

00:01:10.420 You guessed it.

00:01:11.220 They are Democrat-run states.

00:01:13.460 Very, very blue states.

00:01:15.620 One thing we saw this past week was President Trump.

00:01:17.880 He was addressing the RGA, the Republican Governors Association.

00:01:22.060 And he was very clear.

00:01:23.520 We are going to withhold federal funding from any state that is unwilling to comply.

00:01:28.460 He specifically called out Maine.

00:01:30.160 Of course, Maine was a state that just last week had a man who placed fifth the year prior in the men's division,

00:01:36.780 poll vaulting in the women's division,

00:01:38.580 and ultimately would go on to bravely and valiantly win a women's state title. 0.86

00:01:44.920 But President Trump, that is the type of moral clarity and decisive action and accountability

00:01:51.440 that I know people are so glad is finally back in the White House.

00:01:56.900 Following his executive order, we also saw the NCAA, NCAA President Charlie Baker,

00:02:02.960 pretty immediately the next day after this EO was signed,

00:02:06.640 released a statement saying, look, we're going to do what we can to comply with federal law,

00:02:10.040 and then released a new NCAA policy.

00:02:12.580 I was quick to applaud the NCAA's movement, but very naive of me,

00:02:19.620 because once I looked at this policy, it is terrible.

00:02:22.720 We're going to get into that today with a special guest.

00:02:25.760 But before we do, I want to tell you about today's sponsor.

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00:03:27.080 Back to the policy, the NCAA policy.

00:03:29.760 We're going to get into the specifics in this episode with Kim Jones,

00:03:33.820 who she's been on this podcast before.

00:03:36.040 She's an All-American athlete herself.

00:03:38.640 But I think what really drove her, her motivating factor in ultimately deciding to,

00:03:44.020 because she's a former Democrat,

00:03:45.180 and ultimately deciding to, you know, toe the line with the bureaucrats and the elected officials

00:03:52.600 who are ultimately erasing women, 0.97

00:03:55.960 is because her daughter competed in the Ivy Leagues against Will Thomas as well. 0.99

00:04:00.940 This new NCAA policy is in direct conflict with the executive order

00:04:05.600 in regards to definitions, in regards to requests,

00:04:08.400 and of course, the intent of this policy.

00:04:10.260 And it's not in line with federal law, that federal law being Title IX.

00:04:13.540 And it's in direct conflict with Charlie Baker's promise of a consistent nationwide policy

00:04:20.420 that falls in line with the executive order.

00:04:22.780 Number one, this policy, it removes all accountability from the NCAA.

00:04:26.560 Shocker, they don't want to be held accountable or responsible or liable.

00:04:31.300 It provides loopholes for states and schools.

00:04:34.160 Some of those loopholes would come from the fact that it doesn't define sex.

00:04:37.820 It doesn't define male.

00:04:39.040 It doesn't define female. 1.00

00:04:40.800 Again, I can't believe we have to define these words.

00:04:43.280 I can't believe it's necessary, but it is.

00:04:45.160 What we've seen is unelected bureaucrats go through the back door

00:04:48.140 and reinterpret these words to mean what they want them to mean.

00:04:51.500 It does, however, define man and woman.

00:04:53.540 And in those provided definitions, it says those are just gender identities.

00:04:58.700 It doesn't define male and female.

00:05:00.400 It does define man and woman.

00:05:01.780 It doesn't identify the women's category.

00:05:04.020 How it does qualify sex, though, is by a simple birth certificate.

00:05:07.580 It is a dependent policy, of course, which means nothing.

00:05:10.340 Anyone with any amount of rationale can understand the problems here because we've learned

00:05:14.880 that birth certificates can be forged and made totally fraudulent.

00:05:18.940 In all but six states, you can change your birth certificate.

00:05:22.000 This new policy, it explicitly allows for both men and women to be on the women's team,

00:05:27.100 no matter how you read it.

00:05:28.840 In this policy, men are still allowed to receive women's benefits.

00:05:32.280 And what does that include?

00:05:33.420 Of course, it means access to their locker rooms.

00:05:35.880 This policy, in short, it does not and it cannot protect women.

00:05:40.800 There is no screening, no oversight.

00:05:43.960 Any new policy that would be made from the NCAA at this point, some of the things they have to have,

00:05:50.860 it has to define these sex-based terms and it has to provide screening or oversight.

00:05:56.880 We will get into that, what that means, what is screening.

00:05:59.300 We're going to talk about that with Kim Jones right here.

00:06:01.380 Well, Kim, thank you for joining the Gains for Girls podcast.

00:06:06.380 You have been, of course, I mean, a dear friend of mine over these past few years,

00:06:11.480 but someone who has dedicated heart, soul, blood, sweat, tears, all of the things into this mission.

00:06:19.820 Partially, I would say largely, actually, because of you were an athlete yourself,

00:06:23.800 an All-American yourself at Stanford, but you had a daughter, you have a daughter,

00:06:27.460 who competed against Will Thomas as well in the Ivy League championships.

00:06:32.960 And so that really kick-started, I think, for you, your passion for protecting women and enforcing reality.

00:06:41.420 So thank you for everything, the amount of late-night phone calls that we have been on.

00:06:46.240 I swear you just never sleep, but I'm very grateful for you and for everything.

00:06:50.960 But today, I wanted to discuss with you, really the expert of this, the new NCAA policy.

00:06:59.440 This policy came out following President Trump's keeping men out of women's sports executive order. 0.53

00:07:06.520 And this executive order, written and signed by President Trump, was thoroughly and beautifully done.

00:07:13.540 Charlie Baker, the president of the NCAA, then came out with a statement the next day saying,

00:07:17.480 Hey, well, we're going to do what we can to comply with this executive order, new things to come soon.

00:07:22.840 They released their new policy, and everyone was very quick to celebrate it.

00:07:26.160 Admittedly, even myself, I took to social media very quickly and applauded the NCAA for taking

00:07:32.040 what I believe to be the necessary action to protect women's sports.

00:07:36.540 But upon actually reading the policy, I realized how wrong I was to applaud the NCAA, to be

00:07:45.500 so naive, to believe that they essentially grew a backbone overnight and decided to protect

00:07:51.380 their athletes.

00:07:52.380 And so I wanted to just, number one, of course, your initial thoughts on this policy.

00:07:57.100 And then I kind of want to go through it with you and break it down and highlight all of the

00:08:01.220 flaws so the general public can get a good look at that as well.

00:08:05.740 Yeah, I think that's.

00:08:06.540 Great.

00:08:06.880 And I think you're spot on.

00:08:08.180 I mean, it's after the executive order came out and then Charlie Baker gave that, you know,

00:08:14.080 he gave a, I mean, it was a pretty good line saying, we're going to get in line with the 0.58

00:08:18.860 executive order.

00:08:20.060 I think everyone thought, oh, you know, fantastic.

00:08:23.220 There's no way around this.

00:08:24.900 You're not going to skirt to, you know, put alternative definitions in or do it.

00:08:30.020 And he did just that.

00:08:31.320 So that was shocking.

00:08:32.220 I remember reading at the end of his statement where I said, we stand by to help any athletes,

00:08:38.100 you know, that would struggle under this new policy.

00:08:41.880 And I was just like, oh, my gosh, again, centering the boys, like still no offer of support for

00:08:47.860 the women who have just been thrown under a bus for years now on with their just totally 1.00

00:08:55.160 discriminatory and sexist policies.

00:08:57.240 But yeah, I agree with you.

00:08:59.920 I think we all thought when we read those words, here we go, we're going to actually get something

00:09:04.900 in place where women are going to be treated well by the NCAA, or at least not well, but 1.00

00:09:10.040 at least be protected.

00:09:12.100 Because it was the time for it, right?

00:09:15.560 Everything was in place for the NCAA to do the right thing.

00:09:20.480 President Trump had been easy for them to do.

00:09:23.400 But yes, even still.

00:09:24.820 Yes, so here we are back, actually, like, as we looked at it, realizing that it's a worse

00:09:31.600 policy than we had before.

00:09:33.800 It doesn't offer any accountability or protection.

00:09:37.040 So very excited to walk through it with you.

00:09:39.160 And I agree with you that the president's executive order was spot on and exactly what

00:09:44.300 we needed.

00:09:45.000 It's just a matter of following that and making sure that policies are in alignment with it.

00:09:50.220 Absolutely.

00:09:50.620 And federal law, which we just saw this past week where President Trump, he called out

00:09:57.180 Maine.

00:09:57.640 He said, look, if you're not going to comply with this executive order, I mean, you don't

00:10:02.220 give federal funding.

00:10:03.220 So it's nice to see at least a little bit of enforcement.

00:10:06.220 But again, I believe we do have to hold the NCAA's feet to the fire.

00:10:09.980 There's really three parts of this policy.

00:10:13.020 There's an application portion.

00:10:14.800 Basically, what this portion does is abdicate the NCAA of all responsibility, basically putting

00:10:20.800 the responsibility on the schools or state or federal legislation.

00:10:26.900 They say all of that supersedes the NCAA.

00:10:29.480 Who are we anyways?

00:10:30.720 There's a definitions portion, which goes through and defines things, words and phrases and terms

00:10:36.420 we never thought we would have to define and words that they should define that they did

00:10:41.300 not define.

00:10:42.500 And there is a policy portion.

00:10:45.020 So, Kim, can you kind of walk through some of the flaws, starting with the definitions

00:10:49.420 portion?

00:10:49.880 Because I think this is the most basic, because, again, I can't believe we have to define these

00:10:55.020 things, defining things like NCAA women's team or defining things like gender identity in

00:11:02.080 this policy where it seems totally unnecessary to define.

00:11:05.220 Yeah, I actually think if you don't mind, Riley, let's kick back up just to the title of the

00:11:10.400 policy and start there, because that should have been a big tip off.

00:11:14.800 This is a policy that automatically centers those with identities there.

00:11:20.880 We have no business talking about identities in sport.

00:11:24.780 This is categories are based upon they're based upon real biological realities.

00:11:29.600 We've got weight classes, we've got Paralympics, we've got sex classes and age, obviously.

00:11:36.720 So those are things that are measurable.

00:11:39.580 Identities are not.

00:11:40.740 It should be a student athlete eligibility policy.

00:11:45.040 And I think that was a key thing to pay attention to at the beginning.

00:11:48.840 But instead, it's called the participation policy for transgender student-athletes.

00:11:55.580 So to your point, again, centering around athletes who identify, claim to be something other than

00:12:02.680 what they actually are.

00:12:04.300 Not a participation policy for women, or like you said, a broader participation policy for

00:12:10.620 student-athletes, specifically a participation policy for transgender student-athletes.

00:12:15.440 Right.

00:12:16.000 And that shouldn't have been in there.

00:12:17.320 And we all are very well aware that as soon as you're talking about sports and transgender,

00:12:24.720 the term transgender, you're talking about men having access to women's sports.

00:12:29.700 So, yeah.

00:12:31.320 And then I think just looking at the application part where you said they were really abdicating

00:12:36.480 all accountability, that was very clear in there, just even before we got down to the

00:12:41.460 substance of the policy, the NCAA exists to create nationwide policy so that we can have

00:12:50.360 collegiate sports, so that different states can compete with each other.

00:12:53.740 I mean, the point of this is to follow federal law and federal guidelines so that there is a

00:13:00.180 level playing field and agreed eligibility stance for all of the schools to follow that doesn't

00:13:05.720 put them in conflict with federal law.

00:13:07.540 So the idea that even in this policy, there would be anything written about, we're going

00:13:13.000 to like the states or local, states or local laws could take precedence over this.

00:13:18.800 No, this policy needs to be written in accordance with federal law, which would always supersede

00:13:25.120 state and local laws.

00:13:27.980 So then let's go, let's go into that right after that.

00:13:31.140 Let's go into those definitions.

00:13:32.640 Which one do you want to talk about first?

00:13:35.440 Well, I'll kind of, here's what they define.

00:13:38.120 They define NCAA men's team, NCAA women's team, mixed team, sex assigned at birth.

00:13:43.600 They're not defining sex.

00:13:44.740 They're defining sex assigned at birth, major red flag.

00:13:47.620 They define gender identity and they define transgender.

00:13:51.640 Notice, again, just looking at these definitions without even getting into the substance of how they

00:13:56.420 are defining these things, they don't define male, they don't define female, they don't

00:14:01.680 define woman or man explicitly.

00:14:04.240 They don't define sex itself, but they do, in fact, define transgender.

00:14:10.680 NCAA, I mean, you can kind of go through them piece by piece if you want, or you can just

00:14:14.380 highlight some of the major, major red flags that it doesn't take a legal mind.

00:14:19.540 That's something I've heard, you know, I have many years of legal experience.

00:14:22.980 It doesn't take a lawyer or anyone with 30 plus years of legal experience to recognize

00:14:28.580 the flaws in this.

00:14:30.380 No, 100%.

00:14:31.100 You're right.

00:14:31.980 And just, even if you just looked at the words that they listed, you should be like, whoa,

00:14:36.520 we're off base.

00:14:37.400 This doesn't fall in line with the executive order.

00:14:39.700 There's no way with these definitions.

00:14:41.860 And any lawyer with any amount of experience or anyone who's aware of the law can know that

00:14:47.420 words matter.

00:14:48.200 So, just what you've chosen to define there doesn't offer any protection for women. 0.93

00:14:54.780 How are you going to talk about a women's category if you haven't defined what constitutes 0.92

00:14:59.940 a woman or what basis we divide teams on? 1.00

00:15:04.220 Yes, every single one of those definitions is suspect, in my opinion, but the most important

00:15:09.740 one is the sex assigned at birth and the gender identity.

00:15:13.740 Those two are hugely problematic.

00:15:16.320 Defining sex assigned, they define sex assigned at birth as a birth record, what's on a birth

00:15:23.700 record.

00:15:24.740 So, without a definition of what sex is or what male or female are in this policy, we

00:15:31.040 are, every time they use the term sex assigned at birth, all you need to do is substitute in

00:15:36.420 your birth certificate.

00:15:38.520 Just say birth certificate there.

00:15:40.320 So, there is no, and a birth certificate is not an immutable characteristic.

00:15:46.200 It's not a proxy for sex.

00:15:49.120 And it is not a valid basis for dividing categories because it's a changeable document all around

00:15:57.400 the world, not just in the United States.

00:15:59.700 Well, specifically in the United States, we know that in all but six states, you can change

00:16:05.100 your birth certificate.

00:16:05.860 Washington State actually just made it to where you can change your birth certificate

00:16:09.960 in three days.

00:16:11.560 So, it is something that can very easily be made fraudulent.

00:16:16.520 Well, and I think another point that was made to me by a lawyer when I was discussing this

00:16:22.080 after going through it, she said that you can't control policy on papers.

00:16:30.340 So, whether or not, if as an institution or as a federal government, we say birth records

00:16:36.820 are not allowed to be changed anymore, it still can't be the basis for a policy because

00:16:41.840 it's not an immutable characteristic, and we can't control it around the world.

00:16:46.200 You and I both know, having competed at the highest level in the NCAA, there are a lot of

00:16:51.600 foreign athletes that come here to access the world's best opportunities in sports.

00:16:57.340 There you go.

00:16:59.960 Yeah, and so, we're not going to be able to control what birth records say around the

00:17:05.840 world, and we know just from this past Olympics that, you know, passport documents and official

00:17:12.260 documentation allowed two men to compete in the Olympics when that was what was used as

00:17:18.640 the criteria.

00:17:19.300 So, we've got all kinds of open doors, whether it's policies in a state in the U.S. or policies

00:17:28.200 around the world that allow someone to change their birth certificate.

00:17:31.500 We also know that sometimes birth records have errors on them, as does any kind of documentation.

00:17:38.520 So, we've got, and that can happen by an accident.

00:17:41.820 It can also happen by DSDs, differences of sexual development, where they're, you know,

00:17:48.100 we don't have to get into that, but where a child is mistakenly identified as, or observed

00:17:54.420 as one sex, but they are the other, and you can't figure, you don't find that out right

00:18:00.760 away.

00:18:01.600 So, there's a whole kind, there's a whole boatload of reasons why we can't use documents as a proxy

00:18:09.520 or as a substitute for sex, but it's also a moving target, Riley.

00:18:15.120 So, just because one state has, or one country has a policy about their documentation right

00:18:20.800 now, we have seen over the last decades that the policy on different documentations, it

00:18:27.860 shifts and changes, and it can be changed by different administrations.

00:18:31.440 We need something that's unchangeable, and that is your sex, to be defined. 0.98

00:18:37.160 Yes.

00:18:37.400 Now, with this, this under sex assigned at birth that defines gender identity, this was

00:18:42.880 a huge red flag to me, because it defines it as an individual's own internal sense of

00:18:48.780 their gender.

00:18:49.600 Again, number one, unnecessary to define in this policy, because it's saying the policy

00:18:54.020 is, is, you know, by sex.

00:18:56.200 That's how the incivil, at least sex assigned at birth. 1.00

00:18:58.240 So, why are they defining gender identity?

00:19:00.240 But then it goes on to list examples of gender identity.

00:19:03.200 And it defines gender identity as man and woman.

00:19:08.760 And yeah, I want to reiterate.

00:19:11.040 So, they, when you're saying this policy is supposed to be, those words were very well

00:19:15.820 chosen.

00:19:16.220 When they chose sex assigned at birth and then defined that term as your birth record, they're

00:19:21.960 not defining sex.

00:19:23.160 And they know they're not.

00:19:24.300 So, those words were carefully chosen because it kicks the door wide open for a whole host

00:19:30.860 of opportunities for men to be in women's sports, because there's no checks, there's no medical 0.99

00:19:37.680 records, there's no making, there's no oversight on that.

00:19:42.080 It's just a piece of paper.

00:19:43.400 So, if this policy were to be tested by someone saying, I'm not in violation of the NCAA policy,

00:19:50.680 especially under a different climate or a different leadership in the, in government, we would,

00:19:57.260 there would, there would be nothing stopping any man from being able to participate and compete

00:20:03.320 in the women's category.

00:20:04.800 This, that's, that's just a blatant, like, you could drive a truck through that.

00:20:09.520 It's so huge.

00:20:10.320 So, I mean, think about if, if, um, Castor Semenya decided to come and race in track in

00:20:19.800 the United States, or it's a, it's a young version of Castor Semenya.

00:20:22.900 I have my birth records.

00:20:24.740 I have my birth certificate from my country.

00:20:26.820 There's literally nothing in that policy that would stop a man, a full grown man from competing

00:20:33.080 with women.

00:20:34.500 That's right.

00:20:34.980 Which leads to the policy portion of this.

00:20:37.520 And, and you pointed out something to me, uh, when looking at the policy, uh, number

00:20:42.280 one, it's very brief.

00:20:43.540 Number one is NCAA men's team.

00:20:45.900 Uh, and it goes on to, to, you know, go through all of the, the necessary eligibility requirements

00:20:51.620 to be a part of an NCAA men's team.

00:20:53.500 And then it goes on to define and, or, or explain the policy behind what it takes to be

00:20:58.320 on an NCAA women's team.

00:21:00.160 In bullet point A, there are two bullet points, A and B. In bullet point A is student athlete

00:21:07.240 assigned male at birth.

00:21:08.740 So they can't even help themselves.

00:21:10.520 Even when specifically addressing women and the women's teams, still their first priority

00:21:17.280 is the men.

00:21:20.060 That's if you take their policy at face value that how they expect most people to read it.

00:21:25.960 But when you were back up there talking about gender identity, they actually do, um, in

00:21:32.120 it, not inadvertently.

00:21:33.180 I mean, it's, it's in there.

00:21:34.580 They define man and woman as an identity.

00:21:37.320 So meaning this is something anyone can claim.

00:21:40.020 It's an individual's man and woman is a sense of self. 0.87

00:21:42.520 So by women's team and men's team, they're not actually referring to men and women.

00:21:47.120 They're referring to identity.

00:21:48.460 This, the whole policy is gender language, gender identity language.

00:21:54.080 There's nothing in here we can take at face value.

00:21:56.760 And I think that drives home exactly.

00:22:00.040 That is what it, why it's in such opposition to both the executive orders.

00:22:05.240 Um, but really importantly, the sports executive order, there's nothing in here that is foundational

00:22:13.820 in, in protecting women on the basis of sex.

00:22:16.960 There's nothing in this policy that is tied to federal law.

00:22:21.280 There's no guarantees for women. 1.00

00:22:23.400 There's not the definition of women in here is incorrect.

00:22:26.660 So going to the women's team where they, where they appear to center men, of course, that's 0.85

00:22:32.540 the highest priority.

00:22:33.280 Like you pointed out that men are explicitly in their allowed membership on a women's team.

00:22:41.280 So the women's team already is mandatorily including men and women, no matter what way

00:22:50.940 you shake a stick at this, whether you use, you're using the words as you want to, as you

00:22:55.660 perceive them to be, or the way they're defining.

00:22:57.640 Um, it says here under the practice portion, it says competition, a student athlete assigned

00:23:05.300 male at birth, again, referring back to birth certificates may not compete on a women's 0.78

00:23:09.920 team.

00:23:10.400 Uh, but for the practice portion, a student athlete assigned male at birth may practice

00:23:15.080 on the team consistent with their gender identity and receive all other benefits applicable to

00:23:20.020 student athletes who are other otherwise eligible for practice.

00:23:22.680 And so Kim, what are some of those other benefits that these males would be able to receive?

00:23:28.840 Does that include scholarships?

00:23:30.180 Does that include a roster spot?

00:23:32.060 Does that include access to women's locker rooms? 1.00

00:23:35.340 It's everything.

00:23:36.800 There's no calling that out.

00:23:38.640 But the problem is this policy, as it's written, can't be saved with an addendum to explain that

00:23:43.680 it can't because by the policy, what you've just written, if you replace, reread that top

00:23:49.980 line and it says for male assigned at birth, what they're saying is those with an M on their

00:23:56.020 birth records can't compete.

00:23:58.740 So it doesn't, if I like use a little bit of thought process here, what that means is

00:24:04.940 that if I'm a man and I managed to put an F on my birth records, I am allowed to compete.

00:24:10.940 But if I'm a man that has an M on my birth records, I'm still allowed all access to opportunities

00:24:17.600 that were set aside for women in collegiate sport, including membership on a team and

00:24:21.960 everything that comes with it.

00:24:23.520 You and I both know that it's sex is huge.

00:24:29.420 I mean, it is the single biggest defining factor in human athletic performance.

00:24:35.060 But when you are a member of a team, you have access to a whole host of other things that

00:24:41.000 the school provides for you.

00:24:42.400 And very obviously, the concerns would be areas where women need privacy and dignity. 1.00

00:24:48.760 So the locker rooms, which you have a ton of experience with.

00:24:52.880 So what about someone like Blair Fleming?

00:24:55.700 This story, of course, garnered national attention because I wouldn't even say necessarily because

00:25:01.000 of the man on the San Jose State volleyball team, but I think more so because of the brave

00:25:06.680 women like Brooke Sussler, who is also a part of the San Jose State team, but also the five 1.00

00:25:11.400 other universities in the Mountain West Conference that ultimately decided to forfeit or boycott

00:25:16.540 these matches against San Jose State.

00:25:18.960 So but all that to say, what about someone like Blair Fleming?

00:25:22.200 Do we know the specifics of what his birth certificate looked like?

00:25:26.000 But let's say his birth certificate did say female.

00:25:29.400 Is this someone who would still be allowed under this this new current NCAA policy?

00:25:35.260 Would he still be allowed to compete on that San Jose State women's volleyball team?

00:25:39.720 The reason, according to this policy, why he wouldn't be allowed to.

00:25:43.180 Again, this policy has messed up from the foundation.

00:25:47.420 The definitions of terms and the explicit allowing of male athletes onto women's teams,

00:25:53.960 membership onto women's teams is an immediate no when it comes violation of Title IX.

00:25:58.860 So in essence, every single school that adopts this policy is in violation of Title IX.

00:26:03.760 Whether or not they allow a man on their team, they are saying that they would allow men to access

00:26:08.600 women's opportunities. 0.90

00:26:10.500 But yes, there's nothing that would stop a Blair Fleming.

00:26:14.180 And as you know, Riley, like we're tracking a whole host of young male athletes coming through

00:26:19.600 middle school and high school ranks right now, some of whom are are in the process of talking

00:26:24.760 to NCAA schools.

00:26:26.020 They are in states where birth certificate changes have already occurred and would be

00:26:31.560 super easy if they haven't.

00:26:33.560 These schools do not know that these young athletes are are young men and there would

00:26:39.080 be no.

00:26:39.920 So in this policy, there is no way to question that.

00:26:42.860 There's no screening mechanism for them.

00:26:45.240 The coaches wouldn't have it.

00:26:46.700 The schools wouldn't have it.

00:26:47.920 There has to be a screening mechanism just the same as you would have when you have a

00:26:54.620 weight class to say our weight class is 135 pounds or whatever it would be.

00:26:59.680 You have to identify what the eligibility criteria is.

00:27:03.920 And then you have to put these people on a scale to see if they meet that eligibility criteria.

00:27:09.440 For women's sports, you have to say it's for female athletes only. 1.00

00:27:13.580 And then you have to have a screening mechanism.

00:27:15.320 So let's talk about that screening mechanism.

00:27:19.280 What is what does this look like?

00:27:21.160 We've seen in the Olympics previously how they how they did.

00:27:25.140 I mean, like, I think, like 60 years ago at this point, it was in 2000.

00:27:31.440 Oh, well, not too long ago.

00:27:34.920 Maybe it was, I think, 60 years ago that they did have a pretty invasive process where they

00:27:40.560 would it was a genital examination.

00:27:42.600 And let this be on record, those in support of strong sex based policy and sex based language

00:27:50.960 are not advocating for genital inspections.

00:27:54.160 That is something we hear from the left all of the time.

00:27:57.260 I hate to make it, you know, partisan like that.

00:27:59.660 But unfortunately, that that is ultimately the way this has become.

00:28:02.760 The left says all the time that we want to look inside someone else's pants, which is 0.77

00:28:06.800 grotesque and disgusting and incredibly invasive.

00:28:09.960 And that is not what we are advocating for.

00:28:12.320 So I wanted to you to go a little bit in depth to what this this sex screening process looks

00:28:17.900 like or what it should look like.

00:28:21.580 No, I mean, it would be a cheek swab or a spit test.

00:28:25.120 And you'd be testing for the SRY gene, which is not displaying your whole genetics or putting

00:28:29.860 anything out there going through anything that isn't already completely legal.

00:28:35.300 Even for high school students, it's it's literally a fingerprint.

00:28:39.880 It's literally stepping on a scale.

00:28:41.660 It's meeting an eligibility criteria.

00:28:44.120 So the Supreme Court has already ruled that students, even in high school, can be subject

00:28:50.400 to drug screening for eligibility purposes.

00:28:54.240 Almost every state, I'm not aware of a state that doesn't require a student, a student to

00:28:59.700 go through a physical in middle school and high school.

00:29:01.820 And we do some, I don't know how, if it's all 50 states, but we have, you get to do a

00:29:10.380 small blood test for sickle cell.

00:29:12.480 In some cases, you do TB tests to make sure that you're OK.

00:29:16.520 So there's all kinds of tests that we require people to go through in order to be eligible for

00:29:22.060 something, especially for sports.

00:29:24.140 So sports are a, I mean, they're not mandatory and this is optional.

00:29:30.160 So you have to meet the eligibility requirement in order to do requirements, whether it's your

00:29:35.800 grades, whether it's, I mean, there's a whole thing that the NCAA requires you to go through

00:29:41.140 with their portal initially to make sure that you're even allowed to be recruited.

00:29:46.520 So you have to stand on a scale to wrestle in a weight class.

00:29:50.520 You have to, there's a whole host of things.

00:29:53.060 And like we said, so the idea that we would give any credence whatsoever to the idea that

00:30:01.780 verifying your sex is an invasion of privacy is insane.

00:30:08.480 It, all that is doing is saying, um, we won't protect women, even though under federal law,

00:30:14.560 we have to, so there's, there's no, um, it's an easier, less invasive, more accurate

00:30:23.480 test, initial screen for sex than almost any other criteria.

00:30:30.000 Um, so you would just spit into a tube, you take a cheek swab, you're testing for the active

00:30:36.420 SRY gene, and you've, and that's going to take care of almost everyone.

00:30:41.040 In incredibly rare circumstances, you might get an error or a surprising result, in which

00:30:47.680 case that individual just goes to their doctor to verify that like, here's the situation you're

00:30:52.740 eligible or you're not.

00:30:54.080 It's not, it couldn't be simpler.

00:30:57.460 There is nothing easier for us to do.

00:31:00.420 So you mentioned these, of course, the cheek swabs, and it reminded me, I haven't thought

00:31:04.960 about it from this perspective, actually, until you just said this, we had to do every single

00:31:10.840 week, especially those of us who were unvaccinated, like myself, every single week, I had to go

00:31:17.020 into, um, our athletic department and let them swab my nose, stick a Q-tip up to my brain.

00:31:23.660 I will never forget at NCAAs.

00:31:25.600 I believe in 2021, uh, all of the, the student athletes, we had to gather, uh, and kind of

00:31:32.120 form this line.

00:31:33.180 It was pretty Orwellian really, when you think about it and each take a step into this room

00:31:38.100 where they swabbed your nose before you were eligible to, to compete.

00:31:42.020 And you mentioned the, these drug screenings you have to do.

00:31:45.240 Uh, when I got drug tested in college, we had to go into this room where a woman stood at 1.00

00:31:52.460 the bathroom stall, she watched you, you had to pull your pants all the way down to your ankles. 1.00

00:31:57.400 You had to lift your shirt up and do a spin and then pee in a cup while this woman is watching 1.00

00:32:03.840 you.

00:32:04.540 And that wasn't considered invasive, definitely uncomfortable.

00:32:08.340 I put myself back in, in, uh, that scenario.

00:32:11.300 And of course it's uncomfortable, but that wasn't considered invasive by my university or by the

00:32:17.300 NCAA.

00:32:17.660 It was mandated by the NCAA.

00:32:20.000 These are the same people who make the argument that a simple cheek swab or spitting into a

00:32:25.900 tube is considered invasive.

00:32:28.340 It's crazy.

00:32:29.580 And it's just the activists.

00:32:31.140 It's the, it's the trans activists and the ACLU that want to call this an invasion of privacy.

00:32:36.040 It's not, your sex is not private.

00:32:38.980 Your participation is optional.

00:32:41.040 You go in and you make sure that you meet an eligibility requirement in order to do this

00:32:46.320 activity.

00:32:46.920 And this is consistent with every other kind of eligibility meeting that we have in sports.

00:32:55.300 My kids had to go through drug screening in high school in order to participate in high

00:32:59.800 school.

00:33:00.500 And like I said, there are going to be tests coming out in the next year that are dirt cheap,

00:33:07.100 super accurate, instantaneous.

00:33:09.460 I am not a fan of the COVID screening.

00:33:13.280 That was massively, this is literally just check a box.

00:33:16.580 This is your fingerprint.

00:33:17.700 Let's make sure you are who you say you are.

00:33:19.640 Let's make sure that you are not violating the rights of women. 1.00

00:33:23.160 That's it.

00:33:24.260 And there's no excuse not to do it.

00:33:27.560 Defining a policy on the basis of sex and then a screening mechanism.

00:33:32.420 Until we have, you know, if the NCAA needs to buy a year to figure this out, it's very easy

00:33:39.220 for them to say, well, the physicals need to have a line on them that says, you know,

00:33:45.940 by this definition that we've, and we've got a very clear definition for female eligibility

00:33:51.900 in sport.

00:33:52.600 That they have no reason to suspect that this individual was male at birth.

00:33:58.380 The doctor signs off on it.

00:33:59.820 And then you have another line of stages, another line that says, you know, under penalty of

00:34:05.260 perjury, I do not, I have, I was born female and I have not altered my birth records.

00:34:10.520 And then you buy yourself a year to put these screening mechanisms in place in a cheap and

00:34:17.060 efficient way.

00:34:18.420 And then we have accurate reporting for numbers.

00:34:21.340 We know who's female and participating in the NCAA and women aren't stuck in this horrible 0.76

00:34:27.540 position we've been in looking over their shoulders, wondering who's, who's competing

00:34:33.620 and participating fairly.

00:34:35.440 We're not worried about these poor girls, like the ones, the young women at San Jose state 0.99

00:34:40.520 who were set up to room and undress and take showers where their consent was stripped

00:34:45.560 from them.

00:34:46.120 They didn't know that they were being exposed to a man.

00:34:48.940 It's, we can't continue to put women and women in these positions. 1.00

00:34:53.660 So there's an easy solution.

00:34:56.140 I don't understand, especially with an 80%, with 80% of the public furious at the NCAA over

00:35:04.980 this and believing that women deserve these protections. 1.00

00:35:07.480 Why wouldn't you just step up and do the right thing?

00:35:10.220 Makes no sense.

00:35:11.100 And I think it's important to make the point that the overwhelming majority of female athletes 0.81

00:35:16.800 support sex screening.

00:35:19.600 I know at least at the Olympic level, there is a statistic done, especially after there

00:35:26.280 were several males, as you described, people with DSDs who the public often refers to these

00:35:31.360 individuals as intersex.

00:35:32.960 I would challenge that, that language is misleading.

00:35:36.260 These are individuals who are either still male or female with a difference of sexual

00:35:42.380 development, especially after that became very prominent in sports like track and field

00:35:47.360 in the Olympics.

00:35:48.580 Women supported this because we want equal opportunities. 1.00

00:35:52.140 We want fair and safe competition.

00:35:55.500 So, so yes.

00:35:56.320 Um, I guess kind of like wrapping up here, why is the NCAA, why are they fighting this?

00:36:04.920 President Trump allowed them to really be heroes.

00:36:08.420 That's maybe to put it, you know, it's hard for me to say that knowing all that's gone on

00:36:13.400 behind the scenes and kind of being subjected to, to the villain side of the NCAA, but President

00:36:19.720 Trump presented them on a silver platter, the ability to do the right thing.

00:36:24.400 And why in the world are they doubling down?

00:36:26.740 Why are they fighting this?

00:36:28.620 Yeah, well, I can't answer that question, but I can say that the way the wind is blowing

00:36:32.520 and you know this because you're on top of it.

00:36:35.060 We've already got, we had some screening in some of the international federations that

00:36:39.020 are recognizing this has to happen again in the women's category.

00:36:42.940 Aquatics, World Aquatics has it in their policy from the last Olympics.

00:36:47.300 You know that World Athletics, the largest international federation and most important international

00:36:52.900 federation under the IOC is going to be bringing the cheap swap, cheek swab back. 0.87

00:36:57.820 It needs, it's so simple.

00:36:59.920 It's so cheap.

00:37:00.720 It's so effective.

00:37:01.900 There is no reason not to do it.

00:37:04.320 It's going to be implemented in several other international federations that we are talking

00:37:08.960 with.

00:37:09.540 And it's, it's got to be implemented by the NCAA.

00:37:13.400 So there is no other choice.

00:37:14.980 And this is the way the wind is blowing.

00:37:16.800 So I, I don't understand why they're fighting it.

00:37:19.540 And like you said, you know, the public can be very forgiving of people who apologize and

00:37:26.140 reverse course when they recognize and they acknowledge that they've been in the wrong.

00:37:30.340 And there's a real opportunity here with enough voices standing up and saying, look at the harm

00:37:36.400 that has been done.

00:37:37.620 Like they brought this, they brought this to the public attention.

00:37:42.280 They are not going to be able to just disappear.

00:37:45.100 We're not going to let them just disappear into the night, continuing under the guise of

00:37:49.440 we did enough.

00:37:50.280 We're okay.

00:37:51.140 They're going to have to make it right.

00:37:53.380 They're going to have to apologize.

00:37:55.180 They're going to have to recognize that every single one of the men that have participated

00:38:00.560 in women's collegiate sports were there in violation of federal law. 1.00

00:38:04.640 Those records and awards, they need to get handed back to women. 1.00

00:38:08.700 They need to bring the women to the forefront that they've wronged and say, look, we're sorry.

00:38:14.040 We're trying to make it right now and pay their dues and work their way back into good graces.

00:38:19.140 There's no other way to go.

00:38:21.300 No, which again, we've, we've seen on behalf of the department of education now on behalf of

00:38:27.460 the white house, on behalf of, of the Trump administration, uh, they, they are doing what needs to be

00:38:33.720 done to ensure accountability, responsibility, and transparency on their end.

00:38:38.500 So, so kind of what's next.

00:38:40.140 I mean, can the white house hold the NCAA's feet to the fire?

00:38:44.160 Do they have the authority to, to do that, or at least continue to pressure the NCAA?

00:38:48.860 Oh, for sure.

00:38:49.960 The white house can do that. 0.75

00:38:51.360 Absolutely do that.

00:38:52.340 And I think, you know, the white house has the power to pull them in and say, Hey, you're

00:38:58.400 not in alignment.

00:38:59.140 That wasn't good enough.

00:39:00.320 Nice try.

00:39:00.920 Let's get you to do the right thing.

00:39:03.380 I think it's going to be, um, I mean, we're just getting started.

00:39:07.100 We're a few days out from having read the policy for the real.

00:39:10.480 So the, the anger is just starting to build and no one who's been remotely involved in

00:39:17.400 this fight is going to not make sure that the public is well-informed.

00:39:21.280 So the frustration will build and the pressure will continue to mount that, um, you know, it'll

00:39:26.720 be interesting to see if the NCAA does the right thing or if the white house gets involved

00:39:31.920 and says, yeah, you need to get back to the table here, folks.

00:39:34.980 What shout out to attorney general Ken Paxton, uh, who just this past week filed a, a temporary

00:39:40.920 injunction, uh, to prevent this NCAA policy from taking place as he recognized the glaring

00:39:46.600 loopholes.

00:39:47.100 Everyone does.

00:39:47.600 The department of education, uh, you know, recognizes the loopholes in a statement that

00:39:51.740 they've released even Fox news hosts, right?

00:39:54.120 Like, like I've been on Fox several times and these aren't people oftentimes with legal

00:39:58.980 backgrounds and they've asked me, you know, looking at this policy, it seems as if there's

00:40:02.960 some loopholes.

00:40:03.820 So everyone sees it.

00:40:05.800 If you look at it for, for five seconds, you see the problems.

00:40:09.600 If you go beyond the statement that Charlie Baker initially put out saying that he would

00:40:13.960 ultimately comply with federal law, everyone sees the problems.

00:40:18.480 Uh, so I believe we need to, to keep the pressure on it.

00:40:22.040 We've seen it work, uh, whether it is the NCAA, whether it's, you know, large corporations

00:40:27.880 or businesses or, or other organizations, public pressure works.

00:40:32.580 Uh, that is how ultimately I believe we make change as we, we have to stay on them.

00:40:37.480 What else?

00:40:38.460 What next?

00:40:40.220 What's the next thing?

00:40:42.320 Um, well, I mean, honestly, I think that's it.

00:40:44.420 Just continue the, I, and I want to reiterate, like you're saying, the department of ed has

00:40:48.220 recognized it.

00:40:49.020 The white house has called for them to admit their wrongs and fix the records.

00:40:53.920 Um, there really isn't any way escape out of this.

00:40:58.340 And you and I have both spoken to senators offices in the last few days, even it is, it's

00:41:03.720 a fast awakening.

00:41:04.780 And I think the biggest lesson from all of this is that truth is not going to stay hidden,

00:41:09.800 that you're not going to get away with it.

00:41:12.540 And the crazy thing is that the NCAA brought this to the public's attention through Leah

00:41:19.580 Thomas.

00:41:20.620 And that is the biggest scandal in sports history on the women's side right now.

00:41:26.860 I mean, I would say this eclipses the doping scandals.

00:41:30.480 So there's no way that we are going to just let this drop.

00:41:35.960 People are too aware and they're too upset.

00:41:38.440 And the public is too galvanized.

00:41:40.560 It's not going to go away until it's done right.

00:41:43.420 So we recognize now is the time.

00:41:45.900 If not now, then when we can't guarantee what happens in four years, we can't guarantee what

00:41:50.860 happens tomorrow.

00:41:52.060 So we have the ability in terms of, of federal representation for sure to get this done.

00:41:59.360 Why would we not do it now?

00:42:02.000 And do it right.

00:42:03.540 Do it right.

00:42:04.660 That's correct.

00:42:05.300 So we're, I'm grateful for you, Riley, for being such a huge voice, for being so fearless

00:42:12.220 and tireless on defending women and girls.

00:42:14.800 It's been incredible to see the effect you've had.

00:42:18.940 And, um, I just wish you all the luck in the world and stay strong.

00:42:24.100 Well, and you, and you.

00:42:26.200 So thank you, Kim.

00:42:27.740 Thank you guys for tuning into the gains for girls podcast.

00:42:30.240 I hope this was an informative episode.

00:42:32.200 I hope you learned a lot about the new policy, about the cowardice of the NCAA.

00:42:38.260 Uh, I hate it.

00:42:39.640 I hate that this is what it's come to.

00:42:41.200 I hate that the NCAA is unwilling to do the right thing.

00:42:45.680 Uh, what majority of Americans, what majority of people around the world know to be right 0.91

00:42:51.920 and true and what they support.

00:42:53.540 But the NCAA continues to be a sellout.

00:42:56.340 They continue to sit on the fence.

00:42:57.940 They are legendary fence sitters winking at both sides, uh, but it's up to us, the people

00:43:03.220 to call them out, to continue to hold their feet to the fire, to put the pressure on them

00:43:08.600 to do the right thing.

00:43:09.660 Because if we don't, uh, first of all, no one else will.

00:43:12.860 And the NCAA will change nothing because ultimately they don't care.

00:43:17.520 They don't care about, uh, their athletes, especially their female athletes. 1.00

00:43:21.700 They have made that very clear over the past few years.

00:43:24.560 Uh, so keep the pressure on, we still need to make sure too, that Congress is passing

00:43:30.180 and codifying these bills into law because ultimately the executive order, uh, let's

00:43:35.700 say in four years, God forbid someone like AOC is in the white house.

00:43:39.360 This executive order would be overturned just as quickly as it was implemented.

00:43:43.680 Uh, so we need to make sure that the Senate, uh, undertakes and hears on the floor, the Senate

00:43:49.340 floor, uh, the corresponding bill in the house was HR 28, the protection of women and girls

00:43:54.080 and sports act would pass.

00:43:55.660 We need this to be done in the Senate to hopefully get on president Trump's desk to

00:43:59.700 sign into law.

00:44:01.520 So lots of things to, to continue to look out for, uh, to continue to keep the pressure

00:44:06.340 on, but as always, very glad you guys listened.

00:44:09.840 Um, and we will see you again next week.

00:44:11.260 Bye.

00:44:11.760 Bye.

00:44:12.260 Bye.

00:44:12.760 Bye.

00:44:13.260 Bye.

00:44:13.760 Bye.

00:44:14.260 Bye.

00:44:15.260 Bye.

00:44:16.260 Bye.

00:44:17.260 Bye.

00:44:18.260 Bye.

00:44:19.260 Bye.

00:44:20.260 Bye.

00:44:21.260 Bye.

00:44:22.260 Bye.

Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - February 26, 2025

The NCAA's Flawed Definitions

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