The USA Powerlifting President Speaks Out
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Summary
Larry Male is the President of the United States Association of American Women's Powerlifting (USA Powerlifting) and has been involved in powerlifting for over 50 years. He is a clinical psychologist and has coached 57 internationals and won a national championship seven out of 8 years in a row. In this episode, we discuss his views on the issue of males being allowed to compete in women's powerlifting and why this is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Transcript
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welcome back to the gains for girls podcast as i've said on this podcast many times before
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we have very few coaches or presidents in this case who are willing to stand up
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we had dave and his wonderful wife judy brown on recently they were coaches who were willing to
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protest the inclusion of males into women's sports but larry male he is the president of
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usa powerlifting and he has gone as far now to even file a lawsuit because he understands the
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harm and the severity that his athletes his female athletes his power lifters are facing when males
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are invited and allowed and encouraged to participate in women's powerlifting i could not
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be more inspired by him we have done several things together including press conferences
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ultimately urging the ncaa the biden administration the ioc to revisit their policies and to protect
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women check out our interview here larry thank you so much for joining the gains for girls podcast
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uh you and i have gotten to know each other a little bit over the past year or so of course in
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this advocacy role um but i wanted you to start by telling us a little bit about your background
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uh because i was researching you know you as a person uh before the podcast and i had no idea
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knowing you for the past year or whatever it's been i had no idea you accomplished all the things
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that you have in your own personal life and career uh so tell us a little bit about your background
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how you got to the position you are now well professionally i'm a clinical and forensic
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psychologist i've been practicing i guess about 40 years now um currently i work in an adolescent
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facility adolescent inpatient facility i work primarily with adolescent girls
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um i've done a lot of different things over the course of my career um from being a director of
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forensic evaluation for the state of alaska i've been a psychologist on active duty
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um and probably most importantly though i've been involved in powerlifting for
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coming up on 50 years now and and having done that i've done a number of things
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i'm currently the president of usa powerlifting i'm in i think my sixth term um it's hard to
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remember exactly um but also probably importantly as well i've coached 57 internationals um i was the
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coach of the women's national team for 13 years and i coached a team of women from alaska that won
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a national championship seven out of eight years in running so i have background both in psychology
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but also in powerlifting and coaching directly well that's amazing um of course we have seen some pretty
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big policy change in the powerlifting world i think a lot of people have been following along with the fighting
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world in general as these sports where these differences between male and women you would
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think they are the most obvious and where they matter the most um so i wanted to get your take
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you know again i don't think it takes a scientist or someone with your background to to see these
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differences but what specifically do these biological differences between the sexes um what do they
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look like in the sport of powerlifting and why do they matter well they matter in powerlifting in and
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we tried to approach it obviously from our various backgrounds those of us who researched it um and our
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knowledge of the sport and our experience of the sport and as i said i was the women's national team
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coach for a period of time but i've also coached male world champions so i have a fairly good read
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of of what the differences are but to to look at it legitimately you have to ask a series of
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questions and the first of them is are men and women really different in powerlifting and we looked
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at 17 000 cases worldwide and and what we found is that men are more than 60 stronger than women
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and and and no disservice to women it's just a different um physiology and plays out differently
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in sports and for that reason we have sex-based categories um the the gulf is enormous in powerlifting
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i like that you mention it doesn't make one sex inferior to the other it just makes it different in a way
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that not only of course should be acknowledged but really in a way that should be celebrated
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um and the 60 performance gap that is so much larger than other sports you take swimming for
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example and if you look at the the world record holder and let's say the 200 backstroke uh on the
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women's side versus the world record holder in the 200 backstroke on the men's side that performance
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gap is 10 to 12 percent which of course is still a very large margin um but again just for context
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of how large a 60 percent performance gap really is um the international powerlifting federation
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what is the policy that they have in place right now their policy currently in some ways
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mirrors the ioc policy but it's somewhat more restrictive and it's a testosterone-based policy that
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that essentially says if you reduce your testosterone in their case to 2.4
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nanomoles per milliliter basically a fairly low level um and you maintain it for a period of time
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then you may compete in the in the women's division um adjunctive to that are that
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you must apply um but you must provide medical records and you are ultimately responsible for documenting
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that your testosterone level hasn't risen above that level um so it's it's a it mirrors the ioc policy
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to some degree it's a little bit more restrictive um but it's still a a testosterone based policy
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so it reduces women down to being a testosterone level and speaking of the olympics and the sport of
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of lifting powerlifting we saw laurel hubbard uh really i would say this is one of the first cases
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that really gained national attention surrounding the inclusion of males in women's sports
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um laurel hubbard is of course a weightlifter from new zealand who is a male but who got to compete
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on the women's team um in the 20 was it the 2016 or 2020 olympics
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um i think the probably the incident or the the competitive experience you're talking about is
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2016 and that was in anaheim california i was actually present for that
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i can't imagine watching in real time what this looked like um but under the the olympics guidelines
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and framework now which i've read which are atrocious the framework that they have in place
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do do you know that the framework they have in place the ioc again the international olympic
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committee of course this is the framework they resort other governing bodies like the ipf
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to resort to when making their rules it says male advantage cannot be presumed over women
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it says that male advantage is perceived unverified and alleged and until we can prove males have advantages
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over females then it would be wrong to discriminate on the basis of transgender status
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you know it's interesting you mentioned that there's an article that came out this week
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um in the scandinavian journal of medicine and sports and it took on some of those assumptions of
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the ioc and and there there there are several takeaways from that but one of them is that there's
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as you said no presumption that men and women are stronger and that really goes to the heart of the
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fact that this really fails in terms of um of common sense and you know to make maybe what's a silly
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analogy it it you don't have to have scientific studies to realize that if you drive your motorcycle
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into the wall at 60 miles an hour you're probably going to be killed oh um and and the same thing
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applies here it it doesn't take years of scientific study to to notice that men and women are different
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in sport and and the ioc fostering that um they've done that in several ways but fostering that really
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flies in the face of credibility on their part i think absolutely um well you have been one of the
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first people of prominence in the sporting world especially as a president the president of usa power
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lifting to ultimately take a stand in defending female athletes women in general and you filed a lawsuit
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um i want to be i want you to be able to explain what this lawsuit is and of course an update on how
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things stand now sure um it's it's really been a long process for us and and i really would go back
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to 2015 at that point i was on the ipf medical committee and and our policy was that trans women
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couldn't compete in the women's division um by virtue of politics they softened that and and
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essentially catered to the ioc and and changed that policy um but the medical committee in fact
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they removed several of us because of our stance on that policy but that was the original policy
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um really eight or nine years ago maybe 10 years ago and and usa power lifting is the affiliate of the
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ipf at that time adopted that policy um we we didn't do so basically um naively or in in a in a way to just
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accept their logic rather we looked at the issue um really at some depth and consulted experts i mentioned
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the the issue of looking at a large pool of lifters um we did that but we went beyond that and
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you you always in science have to ask why questions um why does it make a difference and
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and we have access to youth data we have a youth program it starts at eight years of age and
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we break it up into two-year increments and so if our working hypothesis was if you transition
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through puberty as a male that makes a significant difference we should see that in the data and in
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fact we did um at eight and nine years of age there really is not a lot of difference between
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males and females in power lifting um but at 10 and 11 there's a pretty big difference it's more than
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20 percent and at 12 and 13 years old it approaches the adult levels of difference so puberty matters
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um maturation in what is essentially a testosterone bath matters um so that was our policy basically
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um jc cooper initially filed filed a human rights complaint in minnesota and we went through that
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process for about two years um to the to the with the end idea that we would have a fair hearing
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and get to present some evidence and talked about settling briefly is jc cooper is a male identifying
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as a woman correct yes we refer to her as a trans woman because at the end of the day we don't care
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right you can call yourself whoever you want to but how you mature matters to us and right and how you
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perform um within the context of male female difference matters to us um very much so especially
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in power lifting miss cooper withdrew that suit um and filed in the district court in ramsey county
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minnesota where we have been going through this process for several years now um the judge issued a summary
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judgment against us um and essentially denied us due process our experts were denied we were denied the chance
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of a hearing we were denied a trial and on that basis we appealed to the minnesota court of appeals
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um and as you're probably aware they rendered their decision not long ago and in that decision
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they affirmed the stance um that we argued um that there may be non-discriminatory reasons for excluding
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trans women from the women's division um that we were denied the opportunity to present our evidence
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before a jury and affirmed uh and this is probably a minor point that usa powerlifting minnesota is not
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a separate entity where the individuals may be sued individually but is a function of usa powerlifting
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nationally so in essence they affirmed on every point that we appealed on um we will head back to
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the district court for the trial that we should have had or the uh opposing counsel will appeal to the
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minnesota supreme court it's still their call um so we're just waiting to hear
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well it seems like to a degree of course the battle is far from won but it seems like to a degree
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um common sense is is prevailing uh which is never a given considering we live in a world where
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common sense is not common uh but that's a huge win and in the meantime of course and we will be
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following along um cheering you on and again really thanking you for the stance and the fight that
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you've shown for women and again for biological reality um but i've got to ask you we've had april
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hutchinson on the podcast before i know you know april um she is the power lifter from canada
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um who has been outspoken about males competing and women's power lifting taking opportunities away
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from her um roster spots you know podium spots she's wonderful and she's been incredibly fierce on
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this topic and someone who really inspires me but i've got to get your take on the cpu uh the
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canadian power lifting union and what they're doing because still to this day uh i mean april
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has faced suspension she has faced um all kinds of animosity thrown her way um by the people who are
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in charge the authority figures there of course other power lifters both male and female critiquing her
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for her stance um so what's your take of course on the cpu but also i think more importantly
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the silencing efforts that they're going through to keep power lifters like april quiet
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well i i think the cpu situation is is interesting and and it's somewhat the canadian character to kind
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of go along and get along and probably at least in a little bit that's what's going on with the cpu but
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um that the cpu was taking the ipf policy and taking it further and their policy is one of full
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inclusion now with the exception of national and international events because they must enforce
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the ipf policy which is more restrictive but i i think that recent events as recent as february
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really exemplify what the cpu is doing and in a recent meet in british columbia uh trans woman competed
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in the women's division um after um having been disallowed from strong woman um and essentially
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crushed the competition um and in the cpu apparently that's okay i would point out as well that there it looks
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like there's some differential treatment of april versus the other people on the other side of the
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issue um who really have spoken at will um call transphobia and and call people bigots and um made
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really threatening comments um which which april doesn't appear to have done at any level um and she
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is in fact suspended so it looks differential to me and in that what it on the part of a sporting
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federation is disturbing at at the least yeah and at any level you know if this were going the other
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way um it would still be disturbing but as you said uh that's sounds like canada for you um but i'm
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curious a question i've been curious for you um you know working specifically with women again taking the
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stance that you have what are some of the kind of private conversations i mean do you have girls who
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who thank you for the stance that you've taken um is i guess what i'm asking is the private
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conversations are they different than the the public forward-facing conversations and the debate that we
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see maybe in the media is that different for you yes clearly it is and i hear very frequently
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sometimes by social media sometimes by email from women who just say thank you but more frequently
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because i go to all the national meets and dozens of meets every year um women approach me personally
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um to discuss the issue and talk about it and and so my sense is that women powerlifers have very
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strong feelings about it but they also feel like they've been silenced um that they will be subject to
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abuse they will be subject to legal action if they in fact make public statements reflecting that and
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there are exceptions of course um some of the women competitors don't care about the potential
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consequences but many of them do and that's especially true for elite women powerlifters who
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potentially faced a loss of sponsorship and competition opportunities yeah it's how they put
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food on the table oftentimes it's what i've seen in other sports like cycling um some other niche sports
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even like pool a ball or darts even we've seen recently and talking to these women of course they know
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it's wrong and they they feel harmed by this but they're scared to say something and understandably so
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because of the threats they might face and and as you mentioned ultimately losing out on on funds or
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sponsorships um or they see what happens to april and uh that is certainly a deterrent um what advice
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do you have for other leaders in sports other men or women who are in your same position who have the
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authority um and the influence and the platform to defend their athletes well i i think that
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my advice would be following with what we've done and um with without the data without a meaningful
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look at your sport and looking at the differences um but also as is consistent with the article that
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just came out with this week you need to survey your constituents um you need to know what the
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differences are you need to be able to make decisions on those on those data and stay the course
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but you also need to know what the sentiments of your particular athletes are and i think if given
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the opportunity to respond anonymously i think that that they would really hear what the majority of
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their competitors really think versus what they feel like they're able to say public i love that you're
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basically saying give your athletes a seat at the table which is what i wish more leaders would do i wish
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it's what the ncaa would do i wish it's what the ioc would do i wish it's what the biden administration
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would do um but unfortunately that seems to be not the direction that we're going although i do
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certainly believe that the tide is turning um last thing for you i know you live in alaska
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uh which is cold last time i was there granted i was there in like november or december there was like
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three or four feet of snow on the ground um alaska is now introducing it's hb 183 it is their bill that
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would protect of course the sports on the basis of sex ensuring that there are two categories um
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i just testified in alaska as you can imagine i was told that i have no decorum i have blood on my hands
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uh there was even one republican member i was so baffled by this there was one republican member
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who said we should just eliminate the categories of sport altogether um to which i just wanted to
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respond to him okay do you think we should eliminate age categories do you think we should
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eliminate in in you know um fighting sports like boxing or like the mma should we eliminate
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weight classes should we eliminate the paralympics versus the olympics
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um what a silly comment for him to make uh very briefly what's your message what's your message
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to these representatives who are soon to vote on this bill uh hoping that they do the right thing
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and vote in support of hb 183 as as you know probably from your experiences up there alaska is a pretty
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right-leaning state and so i would say this by the way i probably know who that republican um politician was
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um and um but i would say this the department of education has already released regulations in alaska
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for high school sports that define women's categories as being those who are born that way
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um so administratively there's a great deal of push but i would say that as as in much of the country
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they need to look out there at their constituents because the people who live beyond anchorage
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um are probably not going to buy it and that they should vote with their constituents which
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if they would take the time to talk to them um which i am obviously one um they would see that
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their strong sentiment um for protecting women's sports in alaska absolutely as i would imagine
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every other state even these states that aren't conservative leaning um but larry you are the best
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i admire you um i think every president i think every ceo even taking this passports and into corporate
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america i think every athletic director coach should watch this and and be inspired by you just like i am
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um it really is amazing to see someone uh despite the consequences despite the fear the backlash that
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that you certainly face do the right thing do what's fair um and do what's sensible just as you said
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listening to your athletes that's what your job is that's what your job is uh so we could not be
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more grateful for you and i appreciate you for coming on and we will certainly be following your lawsuit
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thank you thanks for tuning in to the podcast today um make sure you're following along larry's lawsuit
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of course this would set the precedent for a lot of sports a lot of people and ultimately stating that
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biological reality matters and not only does it matter it's urgent that we enforce it um thanks for
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following make sure you like subscribe anywhere where you get your podcast you can check us out on
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spotify apple podcast check us out at outkick.com and we will see you again next week