Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - The USA Powerlifting President Speaks Out

00:00:00.000 welcome back to the gains for girls podcast as i've said on this podcast many times before

00:00:11.920 we have very few coaches or presidents in this case who are willing to stand up

00:00:16.940 we had dave and his wonderful wife judy brown on recently they were coaches who were willing to

00:00:23.280 protest the inclusion of males into women's sports but larry male he is the president of

00:00:29.680 usa powerlifting and he has gone as far now to even file a lawsuit because he understands the

00:00:35.280 harm and the severity that his athletes his female athletes his power lifters are facing when males

00:00:41.120 are invited and allowed and encouraged to participate in women's powerlifting i could not

00:00:46.680 be more inspired by him we have done several things together including press conferences

00:00:51.220 ultimately urging the ncaa the biden administration the ioc to revisit their policies and to protect

00:00:58.780 women check out our interview here larry thank you so much for joining the gains for girls podcast

00:01:05.380 uh you and i have gotten to know each other a little bit over the past year or so of course in

00:01:10.200 this advocacy role um but i wanted you to start by telling us a little bit about your background

00:01:15.500 uh because i was researching you know you as a person uh before the podcast and i had no idea

00:01:21.300 knowing you for the past year or whatever it's been i had no idea you accomplished all the things

00:01:26.820 that you have in your own personal life and career uh so tell us a little bit about your background

00:01:31.780 how you got to the position you are now well professionally i'm a clinical and forensic

00:01:38.880 psychologist i've been practicing i guess about 40 years now um currently i work in an adolescent

00:01:46.740 facility adolescent inpatient facility i work primarily with adolescent girls

00:01:52.480 um i've done a lot of different things over the course of my career um from being a director of

00:02:01.100 forensic evaluation for the state of alaska i've been a psychologist on active duty

00:02:07.260 um and probably most importantly though i've been involved in powerlifting for

00:02:13.180 coming up on 50 years now and and having done that i've done a number of things

00:02:19.800 i'm currently the president of usa powerlifting i'm in i think my sixth term um it's hard to

00:02:29.020 remember exactly um but also probably importantly as well i've coached 57 internationals um i was the

00:02:38.360 coach of the women's national team for 13 years and i coached a team of women from alaska that won

00:02:46.420 a national championship seven out of eight years in running so i have background both in psychology

00:02:55.640 but also in powerlifting and coaching directly well that's amazing um of course we have seen some pretty

00:03:04.620 big policy change in the powerlifting world i think a lot of people have been following along with the fighting

00:03:11.520 world in general as these sports where these differences between male and women you would

00:03:17.940 think they are the most obvious and where they matter the most um so i wanted to get your take

00:03:23.620 you know again i don't think it takes a scientist or someone with your background to to see these

00:03:28.980 differences but what specifically do these biological differences between the sexes um what do they

00:03:37.000 look like in the sport of powerlifting and why do they matter well they matter in powerlifting in and

00:03:43.700 we tried to approach it obviously from our various backgrounds those of us who researched it um and our

00:03:51.500 knowledge of the sport and our experience of the sport and as i said i was the women's national team

00:03:57.220 coach for a period of time but i've also coached male world champions so i have a fairly good read

00:04:02.640 of of what the differences are but to to look at it legitimately you have to ask a series of

00:04:11.360 questions and the first of them is are men and women really different in powerlifting and we looked

00:04:18.300 at 17 000 cases worldwide and and what we found is that men are more than 60 stronger than women

00:04:26.880 and and and no disservice to women it's just a different um physiology and plays out differently

00:04:34.040 in sports and for that reason we have sex-based categories um the the gulf is enormous in powerlifting

00:04:43.140 i like that you mention it doesn't make one sex inferior to the other it just makes it different in a way

00:04:51.360 that not only of course should be acknowledged but really in a way that should be celebrated

00:04:56.140 um and the 60 performance gap that is so much larger than other sports you take swimming for

00:05:03.560 example and if you look at the the world record holder and let's say the 200 backstroke uh on the

00:05:10.000 women's side versus the world record holder in the 200 backstroke on the men's side that performance

00:05:15.460 gap is 10 to 12 percent which of course is still a very large margin um but again just for context

00:05:21.700 of how large a 60 percent performance gap really is um the international powerlifting federation

00:05:29.120 what is the policy that they have in place right now their policy currently in some ways

00:05:37.020 mirrors the ioc policy but it's somewhat more restrictive and it's a testosterone-based policy that

00:05:44.300 that essentially says if you reduce your testosterone in their case to 2.4

00:05:50.720 nanomoles per milliliter basically a fairly low level um and you maintain it for a period of time

00:05:59.760 then you may compete in the in the women's division um adjunctive to that are that 0.95

00:06:06.500 you must apply um but you must provide medical records and you are ultimately responsible for documenting

00:06:14.000 that your testosterone level hasn't risen above that level um so it's it's a it mirrors the ioc policy

00:06:25.060 to some degree it's a little bit more restrictive um but it's still a a testosterone based policy

00:06:32.900 so it reduces women down to being a testosterone level and speaking of the olympics and the sport of

00:06:39.540 of lifting powerlifting we saw laurel hubbard uh really i would say this is one of the first cases

00:06:47.280 that really gained national attention surrounding the inclusion of males in women's sports

00:06:54.480 um laurel hubbard is of course a weightlifter from new zealand who is a male but who got to compete

00:07:00.380 on the women's team um in the 20 was it the 2016 or 2020 olympics

00:07:05.940 um i think the probably the incident or the the competitive experience you're talking about is

00:07:14.500 2016 and that was in anaheim california i was actually present for that

00:07:19.420 i can't imagine watching in real time what this looked like um but under the the olympics guidelines

00:07:27.600 and framework now which i've read which are atrocious the framework that they have in place

00:07:33.080 do do you know that the framework they have in place the ioc again the international olympic

00:07:38.440 committee of course this is the framework they resort other governing bodies like the ipf

00:07:43.480 to resort to when making their rules it says male advantage cannot be presumed over women

00:07:49.940 it says that male advantage is perceived unverified and alleged and until we can prove males have advantages

00:07:57.820 over females then it would be wrong to discriminate on the basis of transgender status

00:08:02.940 you know it's interesting you mentioned that there's an article that came out this week

00:08:09.040 um in the scandinavian journal of medicine and sports and it took on some of those assumptions of

00:08:15.860 the ioc and and there there there are several takeaways from that but one of them is that there's

00:08:23.960 as you said no presumption that men and women are stronger and that really goes to the heart of the

00:08:29.940 fact that this really fails in terms of um of common sense and you know to make maybe what's a silly

00:08:39.460 analogy it it you don't have to have scientific studies to realize that if you drive your motorcycle

00:08:45.300 into the wall at 60 miles an hour you're probably going to be killed oh um and and the same thing

00:08:52.260 applies here it it doesn't take years of scientific study to to notice that men and women are different

00:09:00.240 in sport and and the ioc fostering that um they've done that in several ways but fostering that really

00:09:10.000 flies in the face of credibility on their part i think absolutely um well you have been one of the

00:09:18.520 first people of prominence in the sporting world especially as a president the president of usa power

00:09:25.780 lifting to ultimately take a stand in defending female athletes women in general and you filed a lawsuit

00:09:34.060 um i want to be i want you to be able to explain what this lawsuit is and of course an update on how

00:09:41.880 things stand now sure um it's it's really been a long process for us and and i really would go back

00:09:51.900 to 2015 at that point i was on the ipf medical committee and and our policy was that trans women

00:09:59.480 couldn't compete in the women's division um by virtue of politics they softened that and and 1.00

00:10:06.400 essentially catered to the ioc and and changed that policy um but the medical committee in fact

00:10:14.080 they removed several of us because of our stance on that policy but that was the original policy

00:10:19.700 um really eight or nine years ago maybe 10 years ago and and usa power lifting is the affiliate of the

00:10:27.460 ipf at that time adopted that policy um we we didn't do so basically um naively or in in a in a way to just

00:10:41.500 accept their logic rather we looked at the issue um really at some depth and consulted experts i mentioned

00:10:48.620 the the issue of looking at a large pool of lifters um we did that but we went beyond that and

00:10:57.060 you you always in science have to ask why questions um why does it make a difference and

00:11:03.640 and we have access to youth data we have a youth program it starts at eight years of age and

00:11:09.480 we break it up into two-year increments and so if our working hypothesis was if you transition

00:11:17.280 through puberty as a male that makes a significant difference we should see that in the data and in

00:11:22.280 fact we did um at eight and nine years of age there really is not a lot of difference between

00:11:27.980 males and females in power lifting um but at 10 and 11 there's a pretty big difference it's more than

00:11:34.440 20 percent and at 12 and 13 years old it approaches the adult levels of difference so puberty matters

00:11:42.620 um maturation in what is essentially a testosterone bath matters um so that was our policy basically

00:11:53.640 um jc cooper initially filed filed a human rights complaint in minnesota and we went through that

00:12:01.660 process for about two years um to the to the with the end idea that we would have a fair hearing

00:12:10.640 and get to present some evidence and talked about settling briefly is jc cooper is a male identifying

00:12:18.640 as a woman correct yes we refer to her as a trans woman because at the end of the day we don't care 1.00

00:12:25.080 right you can call yourself whoever you want to but how you mature matters to us and right and how you

00:12:33.500 perform um within the context of male female difference matters to us um very much so especially

00:12:40.520 in power lifting miss cooper withdrew that suit um and filed in the district court in ramsey county 1.00

00:12:48.660 minnesota where we have been going through this process for several years now um the judge issued a summary

00:12:56.860 judgment against us um and essentially denied us due process our experts were denied we were denied the chance

00:13:03.900 of a hearing we were denied a trial and on that basis we appealed to the minnesota court of appeals

00:13:09.680 um and as you're probably aware they rendered their decision not long ago and in that decision

00:13:17.620 they affirmed the stance um that we argued um that there may be non-discriminatory reasons for excluding

00:13:26.220 trans women from the women's division um that we were denied the opportunity to present our evidence

00:13:33.960 before a jury and affirmed uh and this is probably a minor point that usa powerlifting minnesota is not

00:13:43.120 a separate entity where the individuals may be sued individually but is a function of usa powerlifting

00:13:49.560 nationally so in essence they affirmed on every point that we appealed on um we will head back to

00:13:57.980 the district court for the trial that we should have had or the uh opposing counsel will appeal to the

00:14:05.580 minnesota supreme court it's still their call um so we're just waiting to hear

00:14:10.640 well it seems like to a degree of course the battle is far from won but it seems like to a degree

00:14:18.960 um common sense is is prevailing uh which is never a given considering we live in a world where

00:14:26.260 common sense is not common uh but that's a huge win and in the meantime of course and we will be

00:14:33.080 following along um cheering you on and again really thanking you for the stance and the fight that

00:14:40.240 you've shown for women and again for biological reality um but i've got to ask you we've had april

00:14:46.480 hutchinson on the podcast before i know you know april um she is the power lifter from canada 1.00

00:14:52.220 um who has been outspoken about males competing and women's power lifting taking opportunities away 0.99

00:14:58.420 from her um roster spots you know podium spots she's wonderful and she's been incredibly fierce on

00:15:05.900 this topic and someone who really inspires me but i've got to get your take on the cpu uh the

00:15:12.920 canadian power lifting union and what they're doing because still to this day uh i mean april

00:15:18.100 has faced suspension she has faced um all kinds of animosity thrown her way um by the people who are

00:15:26.900 in charge the authority figures there of course other power lifters both male and female critiquing her 0.99

00:15:33.060 for her stance um so what's your take of course on the cpu but also i think more importantly

00:15:39.380 the silencing efforts that they're going through to keep power lifters like april quiet

00:15:45.140 well i i think the cpu situation is is interesting and and it's somewhat the canadian character to kind

00:15:54.300 of go along and get along and probably at least in a little bit that's what's going on with the cpu but

00:16:01.940 um that the cpu was taking the ipf policy and taking it further and their policy is one of full

00:16:11.640 inclusion now with the exception of national and international events because they must enforce

00:16:17.320 the ipf policy which is more restrictive but i i think that recent events as recent as february

00:16:24.900 really exemplify what the cpu is doing and in a recent meet in british columbia uh trans woman competed

00:16:33.200 in the women's division um after um having been disallowed from strong woman um and essentially

00:16:41.760 crushed the competition um and in the cpu apparently that's okay i would point out as well that there it looks

00:16:51.440 like there's some differential treatment of april versus the other people on the other side of the

00:16:56.180 issue um who really have spoken at will um call transphobia and and call people bigots and um made

00:17:06.000 really threatening comments um which which april doesn't appear to have done at any level um and she 0.51

00:17:12.760 is in fact suspended so it looks differential to me and in that what it on the part of a sporting

00:17:19.360 federation is disturbing at at the least yeah and at any level you know if this were going the other

00:17:26.040 way um it would still be disturbing but as you said uh that's sounds like canada for you um but i'm

00:17:34.820 curious a question i've been curious for you um you know working specifically with women again taking the

00:17:41.560 stance that you have what are some of the kind of private conversations i mean do you have girls who

00:17:49.000 who thank you for the stance that you've taken um is i guess what i'm asking is the private

00:17:55.000 conversations are they different than the the public forward-facing conversations and the debate that we

00:18:01.400 see maybe in the media is that different for you yes clearly it is and i hear very frequently

00:18:09.240 sometimes by social media sometimes by email from women who just say thank you but more frequently

00:18:15.920 because i go to all the national meets and dozens of meets every year um women approach me personally

00:18:24.600 um to discuss the issue and talk about it and and so my sense is that women powerlifers have very 1.00

00:18:32.060 strong feelings about it but they also feel like they've been silenced um that they will be subject to

00:18:40.500 abuse they will be subject to legal action if they in fact make public statements reflecting that and

00:18:47.300 there are exceptions of course um some of the women competitors don't care about the potential 1.00

00:18:55.380 consequences but many of them do and that's especially true for elite women powerlifters who 1.00

00:19:03.240 potentially faced a loss of sponsorship and competition opportunities yeah it's how they put

00:19:11.840 food on the table oftentimes it's what i've seen in other sports like cycling um some other niche sports

00:19:18.400 even like pool a ball or darts even we've seen recently and talking to these women of course they know

00:19:25.140 it's wrong and they they feel harmed by this but they're scared to say something and understandably so

00:19:31.340 because of the threats they might face and and as you mentioned ultimately losing out on on funds or

00:19:36.480 sponsorships um or they see what happens to april and uh that is certainly a deterrent um what advice

00:19:45.880 do you have for other leaders in sports other men or women who are in your same position who have the

00:19:53.240 authority um and the influence and the platform to defend their athletes well i i think that

00:20:01.320 my advice would be following with what we've done and um with without the data without a meaningful

00:20:08.840 look at your sport and looking at the differences um but also as is consistent with the article that

00:20:16.820 just came out with this week you need to survey your constituents um you need to know what the

00:20:22.820 differences are you need to be able to make decisions on those on those data and stay the course

00:20:29.900 but you also need to know what the sentiments of your particular athletes are and i think if given

00:20:37.260 the opportunity to respond anonymously i think that that they would really hear what the majority of

00:20:45.640 their competitors really think versus what they feel like they're able to say public i love that you're

00:20:53.500 basically saying give your athletes a seat at the table which is what i wish more leaders would do i wish

00:20:59.820 it's what the ncaa would do i wish it's what the ioc would do i wish it's what the biden administration

00:21:04.260 would do um but unfortunately that seems to be not the direction that we're going although i do

00:21:10.540 certainly believe that the tide is turning um last thing for you i know you live in alaska

00:21:17.180 uh which is cold last time i was there granted i was there in like november or december there was like

00:21:22.860 three or four feet of snow on the ground um alaska is now introducing it's hb 183 it is their bill that

00:21:31.980 would protect of course the sports on the basis of sex ensuring that there are two categories um

00:21:39.180 i just testified in alaska as you can imagine i was told that i have no decorum i have blood on my hands

00:21:49.080 uh there was even one republican member i was so baffled by this there was one republican member

00:21:54.280 who said we should just eliminate the categories of sport altogether um to which i just wanted to

00:22:00.760 respond to him okay do you think we should eliminate age categories do you think we should

00:22:07.000 eliminate in in you know um fighting sports like boxing or like the mma should we eliminate 1.00

00:22:13.280 weight classes should we eliminate the paralympics versus the olympics

00:22:17.980 um what a silly comment for him to make uh very briefly what's your message what's your message

00:22:24.620 to these representatives who are soon to vote on this bill uh hoping that they do the right thing 0.71

00:22:30.340 and vote in support of hb 183 as as you know probably from your experiences up there alaska is a pretty

00:22:38.540 right-leaning state and so i would say this by the way i probably know who that republican um politician was

00:22:47.340 um and um but i would say this the department of education has already released regulations in alaska

00:22:55.660 for high school sports that define women's categories as being those who are born that way 0.98

00:23:03.020 um so administratively there's a great deal of push but i would say that as as in much of the country

00:23:12.220 they need to look out there at their constituents because the people who live beyond anchorage

00:23:18.060 um are probably not going to buy it and that they should vote with their constituents which

00:23:25.260 if they would take the time to talk to them um which i am obviously one um they would see that

00:23:33.100 their strong sentiment um for protecting women's sports in alaska absolutely as i would imagine

00:23:40.780 every other state even these states that aren't conservative leaning um but larry you are the best

00:23:47.580 i admire you um i think every president i think every ceo even taking this passports and into corporate

00:23:55.820 america i think every athletic director coach should watch this and and be inspired by you just like i am

00:24:03.180 um it really is amazing to see someone uh despite the consequences despite the fear the backlash that

00:24:10.060 that you certainly face do the right thing do what's fair um and do what's sensible just as you said

00:24:17.260 listening to your athletes that's what your job is that's what your job is uh so we could not be

00:24:22.300 more grateful for you and i appreciate you for coming on and we will certainly be following your lawsuit

00:24:26.940 thank you thanks for tuning in to the podcast today um make sure you're following along larry's lawsuit

00:24:35.740 of course this would set the precedent for a lot of sports a lot of people and ultimately stating that

00:24:41.180 biological reality matters and not only does it matter it's urgent that we enforce it um thanks for

00:24:48.380 following make sure you like subscribe anywhere where you get your podcast you can check us out on

00:24:52.940 spotify apple podcast check us out at outkick.com and we will see you again next week

00:25:10.860 you

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Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - April 03, 2024

The USA Powerlifting President Speaks Out

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