Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - When a Male Joins the Sisterhood

00:00:00.540 Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line, but first...

00:00:10.980 There, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes.

00:00:18.040 Welcome back to the Gains for Girls podcast.

00:00:29.480 This week, I am super excited because we have a panel of brave girls.

00:00:34.840 We have four of the amazing girls from University of Wyoming who are part of the Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority 0.52

00:00:40.880 who are now suing Kappa Kappa Gamma for allowing a male by the name of Artemis Langford

00:00:47.600 into their sorority.

00:00:49.960 Of course, this is a male who now identifies as a woman.

00:00:53.480 And for merely saying he is a woman, he was allowed to join.

00:00:57.140 These girls filed a lawsuit with six of the girls being plaintiffs and six of the girls being witnesses 0.60

00:01:02.040 earlier in the year, to which the judge came back and ruled,

00:01:06.380 which keep in mind, this judge is like 90 years old,

00:01:09.180 ruled that they were not able to define women so the sorority could do whatever they wanted to do. 0.99

00:01:13.900 They could define women however they wanted.

00:01:15.500 But these girls, they were not taking this as an adequate answer. 0.99

00:01:20.180 And so they have restructured their lawsuit and they are pushing forward.

00:01:24.460 They have got the fight and tenacity that a lot of people, a lot of men even, are lacking.

00:01:31.140 And so I am proud to say that I'm their friend.

00:01:34.920 And of course, to stand alongside them in this fight.

00:01:37.720 And so check out the sorority with the Kappa Kappa Gamma girls and their attorney, May Mailman.

00:01:43.440 Thank you guys for coming on.

00:01:47.040 This is incredibly exciting for me because I feel like it's pretty rare that I get to talk to a lot of brave young women.

00:01:55.420 What you guys are doing, how you've really set the precedent is incredibly admirable.

00:02:00.360 And like I said, it's really just brave.

00:02:02.680 I know being a college-age girl, dealing with these issues, you're under a lot of scrutiny.

00:02:07.980 So I couldn't be more proud of you and really thankful for you guys.

00:02:11.560 But before we really get into anything of the asking of you guys' questions, I wanted to start with May Mailman,

00:02:18.100 who is the attorney, the lawyer who has taken this case on with the Independent Women's Law Center.

00:02:25.380 A phenomenal woman.

00:02:27.040 She does phenomenal work. 1.00

00:02:28.760 Would you mind just kind of giving a brief overview of what you guys are doing to lay it out for all the listeners?

00:02:36.160 Absolutely.

00:02:37.900 So after these women had to deal with Kappa Kappa Gamma National Headquarters, forcing them to initiate a mail, 1.00

00:02:50.400 they bravely filed suit in the District of Wyoming.

00:02:55.280 The district court, unfortunately, ruled against them.

00:02:58.900 They said that even though Kappa contractually promised that it was a women's-only organization,

00:03:07.620 the contract says that a new member shall be a woman, 0.97

00:03:11.420 the judge said, well, woman doesn't really have a definition here in that contract, in the bylaws, 1.00

00:03:18.200 so Kappa can define it or think about it however it wants.

00:03:22.000 So it said that the women were basically not allowed to sue. 0.99

00:03:25.300 So what IWF is doing now is we are helping with their appeal.

00:03:30.220 So the appeal is in the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals, which is a court that's headquartered in Denver,

00:03:35.500 and we are arguing a few things.

00:03:39.660 So one is absolutely woman has a meaning.

00:03:43.320 You don't have to define every single term that is in a document that is not how the English language works.

00:03:49.900 Sometimes the English language just has meaning.

00:03:53.180 And so woman has a meaning. 1.00

00:03:56.320 It is biological female.

00:03:57.820 It's always been biological female since 1870, when Kappa Kappa Gamma was founded.

00:04:03.100 It is biological female.

00:04:05.340 But then also we point out a couple of legal reasons why the court was wrong to toss this case.

00:04:11.200 You can't just say that an organization can do whatever it wants.

00:04:15.340 No.

00:04:15.820 Organizations have contracts with their members.

00:04:17.920 They write those contracts through their bylaws, and organizations are bound to follow them.

00:04:22.640 And there's tons of case law why.

00:04:24.320 So we're very hopeful on appeal, but that's the legal stuff.

00:04:30.240 These women are the ones who have lived it every day, are still living it, 1.00

00:04:35.080 and, you know, had the foresight to force this issue to come to the court.

00:04:44.640 Wow.

00:04:45.320 And you're exactly right.

00:04:46.820 These are four of the several brave plaintiffs and witnesses who have signed on to this lawsuit.

00:04:53.100 And so, again, I just want to express my gratitude for you guys.

00:04:59.180 You might not think it, but it makes issues that we're dealing with in women's sports. 1.00

00:05:03.740 Of course, they're all related in terms of, I would say, the gaslighting and the emotional blackmail.

00:05:09.180 And, again, redefining sex-based terms that in the nearly 250 years we've been established as a country,

00:05:14.540 and, of course, a lot longer than that, we've never struggled to define.

00:05:19.180 It's all very related, and so I wanted to thank you guys again.

00:05:23.080 I want to take you guys back, though, to when you first learned, found out that you would be having to accept a male into your sorority houses,

00:05:34.680 into your sorority house, the feelings you guys felt.

00:05:39.720 Again, relating this to the feelings I felt, I can only imagine, because, of course, a sorority house, that's a very intimate space.

00:05:47.300 You guys were promised sisterhood.

00:05:50.280 And so, Hannah, I guess I'll ask you, what were those feelings you guys had?

00:05:56.220 It was a lot of not knowing the right thing to do.

00:06:00.880 Like, are we supposed to, like, stand there and welcome this individual or, like, do something about it?

00:06:08.740 I, like, personally, I, like, did not know what to do.

00:06:11.460 And I talked to my parents, and they were like, this is not okay.

00:06:13.800 And I'm like, okay, I'm not the only one who feels like this.

00:06:16.300 And Maddie was my roommate at the time, and we're like, this is not, this is not okay.

00:06:20.520 This has not been able to happen in the first place, like, guidelines-wise.

00:06:27.500 So after finding out that more people felt the same way, I'm like, okay, this, something needs to be done.

00:06:32.280 And so we went through the chain of command, through headquarters, through every, anyone who would answer an email or a phone call, pretty much, until they quit replying to us.

00:06:43.960 And then it was just, like, one more email, one more phone call.

00:06:46.800 My dad kept making phone calls, like, okay, this is the last one.

00:06:49.520 And then I made that last-ditch effort, saying, okay, this is it.

00:06:54.160 I'm done.

00:06:55.300 I did what I needed to do.

00:06:57.720 And then I got a phone call from Patsy.

00:07:00.580 And I literally was in class, and I got the phone call, because my mom's like, this alumni is going to be calling you.

00:07:05.820 And I'm like, okay.

00:07:06.680 And I'm like, she's going to have something bad to say. 0.99

00:07:08.460 I'm going to get my butt sheared right here. 0.96

00:07:11.560 And she was like, if you want to take this to the next step, and you can get girls on our side, let's do it. 1.00

00:07:15.820 And I said, oh, my gosh.

00:07:18.700 I'm like, finally, like, we have more support than we ever known.

00:07:22.380 And even at that time, it was just, like, amazing to have one alumni on our side.

00:07:26.000 And now we have a whole network.

00:07:27.620 It's just crazy, like, the support and overwhelming, you know, power behind us now.

00:07:33.500 It's awesome.

00:07:35.100 Absolutely.

00:07:36.780 Patsy, she is one of the alumni.

00:07:39.320 There are several, as you mentioned, who have kind of joined on to help you guys,

00:07:42.800 whether that be with financial help, whether that be, of course, garnering more support from other even sororities.

00:07:49.920 And so they've been absolutely phenomenal.

00:07:52.040 But there's a big story that broke a couple weeks ago, where even some of the alumni were totally, I believe, banned from,

00:08:01.600 I don't know if I'm wording this correctly, because I'll admit,

00:08:04.740 and I told this to you guys when I was in Wyoming, at University of Wyoming with you guys,

00:08:09.480 I have no understanding of sororities.

00:08:12.060 My swim team was kind of like my sorority, and we call ourselves the Kappa Kappa Goggles.

00:08:16.840 And it certainly felt like a sorority when you have 40 girls in a team, especially being team captain of that team. 0.99

00:08:22.640 Again, I kind of feel the sisterhood in the family, I'm sure that you guys felt, but, of course, it's different to a degree.

00:08:27.800 So, Allie, I know that you have now since graduated.

00:08:33.060 You've had these alumni helping you.

00:08:35.140 They've been ultimately banned.

00:08:37.860 What has their support really meant to you guys?

00:08:42.280 Honestly, it's meant everything.

00:08:43.960 Because at the beginning of this, we were like, okay, this is wrong.

00:08:47.680 We know this is wrong.

00:08:48.720 We need to say something about it.

00:08:50.460 But where do we go?

00:08:51.440 What do we do?

00:08:52.120 Like, how do we start this process?

00:08:53.720 And these alumni are the ones who came to us, and they're like, we agree.

00:08:57.340 This is wrong, and we need to do something about it.

00:08:59.720 So, they were incredibly helpful in putting us in the right contact with the right people to get things going and moving.

00:09:06.600 And just being able to figure something out, figure out a plan, and be able to fight this.

00:09:12.240 Because, I mean, it's just so important for us to fight it.

00:09:15.520 And the more time goes by, the more I realize how much more important it is.

00:09:20.180 I mean, I just found out that I'm going to be an aunt, and I'm getting a niece.

00:09:24.560 I'm so excited.

00:09:25.960 But I'm like, the more time goes on, I'm like, we have to fight this.

00:09:29.680 I want my niece to be able to play sports and not have to fight against men or join a sorority and not have to live with a man. 0.99

00:09:36.820 You know, like, all of these things that I got to experience, I want her to have.

00:09:40.580 And it's just, without the alumni, we wouldn't be where we are today.

00:09:44.080 What was kind of the general consensus among the sisters and among leadership, specifically on University of Wyoming's campus?

00:09:54.140 Did you feel support from other people who aren't necessarily signed on to the lawsuit?

00:09:58.900 Or do you feel as if some of your sisters, sorority sisters, accepted and kind of embraced this male student with open arms?

00:10:08.580 There is definitely some mixed reviews.

00:10:11.040 I would say overall, we do have more support than the opposing views.

00:10:17.060 But, I mean, it was pretty split.

00:10:19.420 Once we came out publicly about saying how this made us feel and how we did not agree with it,

00:10:25.000 then the girls who were very much for it started to treat us very poorly.

00:10:29.400 And so the girls who kind of were on our side or were neutral saw how we were being treated and were very like,

00:10:36.960 OK, I don't want anything to do with this because I don't want to get treated like that.

00:10:40.580 Which, you know, it's fair enough.

00:10:42.060 It sucked for us at the time.

00:10:44.220 But it's there's a price to pay for standing up for what's right.

00:10:48.680 And we definitely have learned that.

00:10:50.760 I don't regret it at all.

00:10:52.200 I would do it 100 times over.

00:10:53.500 Sure, that's for sure.

00:10:54.620 But it's just, you know, it's a very controversial thing, which is crazy to me because it just seems like common sense.

00:11:01.780 But obviously it's not because of woke agendas and people trying to do what they think is the nice thing,

00:11:08.360 even though they're not thinking about what it does to actual women.

00:11:12.440 And I found myself when I heard about this, I found myself conflicted because trying to put myself in your all shoes,

00:11:19.320 what I would want to do in this scenario, is this something you kind of walk away from entirely?

00:11:25.760 You know, do you drop the sorority and essentially quit or do you stay and fight?

00:11:30.660 And so, Maddie, I wanted to ask you kind of your opinion on that.

00:11:35.140 What do you think here?

00:11:36.280 Do you think girls and donors should ultimately pull out entirely or do you or do you think they stay?

00:11:43.160 I think we should stay.

00:11:44.840 And here's why.

00:11:45.500 I personally want to stay in Kappa for two reasons.

00:11:48.080 One, because after this all went down, we were told that if we didn't like a male being in our sorority house,

00:11:58.660 then we didn't like Kappa's values.

00:12:02.800 We weren't true Kappas and that we should drop. 0.99

00:12:05.800 And that's not okay with me.

00:12:07.560 And I think that's a huge reason in itself to keep fighting.

00:12:10.380 And my second reason is I love being in Kappa.

00:12:12.760 I have learned so much.

00:12:14.580 I've grown so much.

00:12:15.520 And, I mean, I've met Kappas across the country ages 18 to 87. 0.99

00:12:20.320 And we have that, like, that bond that you don't get anywhere else.

00:12:25.160 And it's something worth fighting for because I want every girl to be able to have the same experience that I've had.

00:12:31.720 Yeah, I love that, how you said it's worth fighting for because it really is.

00:12:35.000 And I have talked to Sophia Laurie, who is another – she's a girl from California who's filing a lawsuit. 1.00

00:12:42.800 And I asked her a kind of similar question in regard to the state of California.

00:12:47.840 We have a lot of people fleeing that state, leaving because they just think it's a lost cause.

00:12:52.720 And she kind of had the same response.

00:12:54.600 You know, California, it's worth fighting for.

00:12:57.000 And if she doesn't fight, if you guys don't fight, who will?

00:13:01.360 So I couldn't agree more.

00:13:03.600 I don't think it's your all's job to have to leave what you're entitled to, which, as I said earlier, is sisterhood when you're joining a sorority.

00:13:15.000 I wanted to ask you really quick, May, too, because I just thought of something, and I'm curious.

00:13:20.900 Is Kappa the only sorority who has kind of taken this approach, this stance, or are there other sororities who are kind of doing the same thing, just without, I guess, the same national attention that Kappa has gotten?

00:13:34.440 Well, it's very unfortunate, Riley, but all of the Panhellenic sororities, which are, you know, I guess the traditional Greek letter organizations on campus, technically have signed on to Panhellenic policies that define woman in what's in your brain terms rather than sex-based terms.

00:14:03.720 Of course, that's totally nonsensical.

00:14:06.120 There's no such thing as a lady brain. 1.00

00:14:08.460 But, yeah, so all of the sororities are at risk of initiating a male.

00:14:16.980 At the end of the day, though, each sorority, it's their own decision about who to initiate.

00:14:23.780 So even though each sorority has sort of signed on to Panhellenic policies, and that's dangerous, and, you know, IWF does plan to do something about that, you know, preview.

00:14:33.360 That's coming soon.

00:14:35.620 At the end of the day, it is the sorority that's making these decisions.

00:14:38.800 So we know that Kappa has made this decision.

00:14:43.260 We also know that Phi Mu, for example, has kicked out some of its alumni for disagreeing with Phi Mu's stance on accepting males.

00:14:54.500 There's no lawsuit from people in Phi Mu chapters.

00:14:58.980 So the reason why Kappa is so nationally prominent is, one, you know, the women in front of you are the ones who brought this to light and are helping share this information, which otherwise would not have been universally known.

00:15:14.820 But also, Kappa has just really gone above and beyond a lot of the other sororities.

00:15:21.060 I mean, very much feeling free to put a lot of political statements out there and making it a little bit of an unfriendly place to be like an average American.

00:15:32.800 And so hopefully that message is being received by Kappa's leadership, which is Kappa is supposed to be a diverse place.

00:15:40.580 Sororities are diverse places.

00:15:41.880 People think all sorts of things.

00:15:43.220 There's no such thing as women have to believe a certain thing in order to be a true woman.

00:15:47.140 No, we are, you know, we, like men, can have our own thoughts.

00:15:51.760 And that's, you know, that's part of this fight, which is you can disagree and still be a woman and still be a Kappa. 0.94

00:16:21.760 Peloton Cross-Training Tread Plus at OnePeloton.ca.

00:16:26.320 Absolutely.

00:16:28.600 I guess I didn't ask this question, too, and it's because it's something I already know.

00:16:32.860 After talking with you guys and understanding kind of the severity of what you guys were dealing with, what some of you still are dealing with,

00:16:40.920 I'll ask you, Allie, again, because, again, I know you're out of the sorority and you've graduated and since moved on.

00:16:46.440 And when this male was allowed into your sorority, was this a different process than what the girls, any other girl, what you all even had to go through to get admitted and accepted and initiated into Kappa?

00:17:03.180 Yeah, it was different than how it usually goes.

00:17:06.200 So this individual went through our formal recruitment where they go and see all the houses and all the houses turned down this individual.

00:17:13.720 Not necessarily because he is a male, but because nobody had anything in common with him.

00:17:20.060 You know, it's a very mutual process when you choose your house.

00:17:23.720 And so no one had anything in common with him.

00:17:25.260 So all the houses dropped him.

00:17:27.160 So then we have continuous open bidding, which we call COB.

00:17:30.280 And that is a process where you can go and contact the house and say, hey, I'm still interested in joining and go through a less formal way of bidding in.

00:17:38.320 And so our membership chair reached out to this individual and went through the process to get admitted.

00:17:45.340 And we had to vote on it before this vote.

00:17:49.420 It went different than it has ever in the past in my four years there.

00:17:53.260 Like I said, I was a senior when this happened.

00:17:56.280 And we had to vote through a Google Doc form and put our emails in.

00:18:01.200 So it wasn't anonymous like it should have been.

00:18:03.240 And before this vote, also, some of the girls in my pledge class stood up and gave speeches about how if you did not give membership to this individual, then you were transphobic.

00:18:14.100 And you didn't align with Kappa's values.

00:18:15.980 And you shouldn't be here if you don't let this person in.

00:18:19.240 And so there was a little bit of bullying sort of to be able to get this person in.

00:18:24.300 And the vote happened not only once, but twice.

00:18:27.400 We had to vote twice on this.

00:18:28.980 So there was just a lot of things that happened with it that were very sketchy to say.

00:18:34.780 And like it just it didn't feel right from the very beginning.

00:18:37.700 So it was not the same as any other girl who got into that sorority.

00:18:41.440 No. And that's a classic tactic that's used, I would say, across the board regarding the gender ideology movement as a whole is name calling and fear mongering and saying, well, if you don't do this, then you're this, which is just silly and wrong. 0.86

00:19:01.320 And it places someone else's internal torment on your shoulders as a young girl when that shouldn't be something that you all have to carry.

00:19:09.480 And so, Jalen, I wanted to ask, you know, someone who's still a part of the sorority.

00:19:15.700 I mean, do you I can't imagine this actually aligns with Kappa's values.

00:19:21.720 And so do you see this as something that they truly believe or is this kind of your classic case of virtue signaling?

00:19:30.300 Again, which I feel like we see pretty often happening.

00:19:33.840 I feel like this really is the classic case of people have these virtues and they don't see how things play out until it's too late.

00:19:42.060 And it's one of those things that once you take a stance, like, of course, everybody wants to be more accepting, but you don't look at what you're doing and why these boundaries are set up in the first place.

00:19:52.020 I mean, I truly believe that everybody should find a space of their own, but it shouldn't be able to compromise those spaces that make us feel safe.

00:20:00.300 And there's really that value that we all see just from that virtue standpoint, that there's a lot of girls in the sorority who want to be accepting and who've even told me themselves that they feel really uncomfortable by what's happening, but they're just too scared to speak out because they don't want to be labeled as transphobic.

00:20:20.500 Absolutely, because being kind, being inclusive, those are great things.

00:20:26.140 Of course they are.

00:20:27.080 And I think even as women, it's something we innately are those things.

00:20:31.100 We are more empathetic.

00:20:32.280 We are more kind of emotionally driven.

00:20:35.180 But I think this has, we've crossed that line of when this continues to happen, it's actually not inclusive.

00:20:45.020 It's exclusive.

00:20:45.720 And so I kind of wanted to leave it open to any of you now.

00:20:49.500 What's the call to action here?

00:20:51.880 What can we do?

00:20:53.720 I think as concerned citizens, especially as I would imagine sorority sisters across the nation, not limited to just Kappa.

00:21:04.120 I would imagine every sorority, regardless of age, like you mentioned, Maddie, whether you're 18 years old or 87 years old, what's the call to action here?

00:21:12.840 What can people do?

00:21:14.660 Well, I honestly think that one of the most important things is to speak up when these spaces get compromised.

00:21:22.220 I think that there's actually a strong majority of people who are super uncomfortable.

00:21:26.420 I've had lots of people tell me again that they agree with what we're doing, but they're scared of the attention it draws because they don't want to get backlash.

00:21:35.820 So I think the most important thing for just any citizen is to stand up for what you believe in and preserve these women's spaces, ultimately.

00:21:44.420 To piggyback off of Jalen, I would just say recognizing that putting inclusivity and being kind, I guess, and welcoming these members is jeopardizing safety, not only in sororities, but in sports, bathrooms, locker rooms.

00:22:00.200 Like, it's not a safe situation for anyone in that uncomfortable position, if you're ever put in that, like we were.

00:22:08.900 Just recognizing that it's okay to feel uncomfortable and say something about it, because if everyone just sits back and lets it happen, it's going to erase women's sports. 1.00

00:22:18.960 It's going to erase sororities.

00:22:19.960 It's going to erase a lot of things that women have worked really hard for. 1.00

00:22:25.020 Like, it's just so sad to think about if no one stands up and no one joins the fight.

00:22:31.900 It's just, it's not going to end well for women at all.

00:22:36.740 Absolutely.

00:22:38.200 What can we expect next?

00:22:40.020 What's the next step in the lawsuit that we can all be following along and really cheering for you guys for?

00:22:46.080 I guess, Mae, you're probably the best person to answer.

00:22:49.020 Well, so, lawsuits are very boring, so everyone has to stay tuned for some boring stuff before we have some fireworks.

00:22:58.100 We filed our brief at the beginning of December.

00:23:00.700 CAPA is going to respond at the beginning of January, saying it can do whatever it wants.

00:23:05.920 And then we will respond to CAPA a month after that, so the beginning of February, clarifying our position, responding to any particularly crazy arguments.

00:23:15.540 And then the court is going to hear oral argument.

00:23:19.180 That should be fun.

00:23:20.680 I mean, if you ever want to know what a definition of woman is, you have an opportunity to listen to a federal court argument about it.

00:23:28.340 And then the court will come to its decision when it comes to it.

00:23:31.680 You know, the thing about court cases is they don't really have timelines.

00:23:35.360 The judges can basically make their decision whenever they want, which is, of course, rough for these girls because they are sitting there without any, you know, any solution until the court comes to their defense. 1.00

00:23:49.960 So we hope that the court, and we will reiterate this, that they need to take this on quickly because there are people actually being harmed.

00:23:58.460 And one other thing that the public can do, which is we do need to put some pressure on Panhellenic to let them know that they are not speaking for all women, not speaking for all sorority women.

00:24:10.600 So if you go to Independent Women Forum website, you can sign up for Independent Women's Network, too.

00:24:18.580 There will be some news about ways that the public can participate in a pressure that we're going to put on Panhellenic.

00:24:25.680 And what we've seen on this issue and many others is pressure works.

00:24:32.660 They kind of what, again, what has been the general consensus is they like to move in secrecy and behind closed doors and kind of just spring this upon people and their own timing.

00:24:45.880 But when they realize that the public is outraged, we saw this with St. Mary's recently, an all-females Catholic institution that then allowed males into their school, to which, of course, the public was outraged.

00:25:01.640 And very quickly, they changed their policy, making St. Mary's once again an all-Catholic university.

00:25:07.080 And there's many stories, or an all-women's Catholic university.

00:25:10.400 So there's many stories just like that.

00:25:11.820 So pressure works.

00:25:13.800 Keep the pressure on them.

00:25:15.600 I believe it's necessary and urgent.

00:25:18.980 And you girls, again, thank you for finding the strength and the tenacity and the grit to take this on, not just for yourselves, but for so many who stand beside you, who came before you, and who will continue to come after you.

00:25:34.560 You have totally set the precedent with this case, again, far, far broader than you could ever even imagine.

00:25:43.540 Thank you for joining the podcast this week.

00:25:45.720 As Mae said, everyone should go to IWF.org.

00:25:50.800 That is for Independent Women's Forum. 1.00

00:25:53.160 They have got some phenomenal resources on how to get involved, how to support these girls, and a lot broader on these issues that are affecting women, adversely, of course.

00:26:05.460 So, again, www.iwf.org.

00:26:09.600 Thanks for joining.

00:26:10.540 Make sure you like, comment, subscribe anywhere where you get your podcasts.

00:26:14.380 You can check it out at outkick.com.

00:26:16.440 And we will see you again next week.

00:26:17.940 We'll see you again next week.

00:26:17.980 We'll see you again next week.

00:26:18.080 We'll see you again next week.

Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - January 10, 2024

When a Male Joins the Sisterhood

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