Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - When a Man Steals a Woman's NCAA Championship with Minna Svard

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00:00:24.820 Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Gains for Girls podcast.

00:00:27.640 This week, we have a special episode.

00:00:30.380 Of course, we typically have an episode every single week on Wednesday.

00:00:34.580 But I saw a story this week titled, My Stolen NCAA Championship.

00:00:39.580 Of course, I naturally had an affinity to this story.

00:00:43.120 I read it, and I knew we had to get the amazing athlete,

00:00:47.560 who was the first woman to have an NCAA title stolen from her back in 2019.

00:00:52.420 I knew we had to get her on this show.

00:00:54.420 Her name is Mina Swarn.

00:00:55.520 She is a Swedish student who came to the U.S., competed at East Texas A&M University.

00:01:03.460 She specialized in the 400 meters.

00:01:06.300 She moved to America, again, in 2017.

00:01:09.120 So now she's back in Sweden.

00:01:10.780 She got her bachelor's degree, as well as her master's degree,

00:01:13.640 at Texas A&M University Commerce.

00:01:16.620 She's done just amazing things in her academic and athletic career.

00:01:19.700 She placed second in the 2019 NCAA Division II women's 400-meter hurdles,

00:01:27.880 behind an athlete who has garnered a lot of national attention, not for the right reasons.

00:01:33.980 It's because this athlete is a male.

00:01:36.560 He goes by the name of CeCe Telfer.

00:01:39.080 He previously, of course, competed in men's athletics.

00:01:41.820 I'm sure you all have seen photos of him.

00:01:44.520 You've seen clips of him.

00:01:45.760 He has been vying for an Olympic spot.

00:01:48.260 He was vying for an Olympic spot in 2024.

00:01:51.260 He is still vying for an Olympic spot in 2028, which, praise God, this administration has said,

00:01:56.440 look, we will not tolerate fraudulent passports or birth certificates,

00:02:01.480 as well as hopefully a new IOC president, hopefully Seb Coe soon,

00:02:05.400 who puts a halt to all of this at the Olympic level.

00:02:07.820 All of that to say, this male athlete, he destroyed the women's field.

00:02:14.680 He crossed the finish line about two seconds before Mina, again, the rightful national champion. 0.65

00:02:21.800 And the story goes, as it did with Will Thomas, this athlete, CeCe Telfer,

00:02:26.900 was ranked 390th in the men's division and suddenly became a national champion in the women's division.

00:02:33.740 Beyond just losing this title, Mina faced severe backlash back in 2019, 2020,

00:02:42.320 when this happened, when she expressed her frustration on social media.

00:02:46.140 As it goes, she was labeled a transphobe.

00:02:48.860 She was labeled a bigot. 1.00

00:02:50.340 They went as far as to call her a racist and white supremacist, a misogynist, 0.95

00:02:54.600 which that one is hilarious to me. 0.76

00:02:56.540 All the while, Telfer is being celebrated in mainstream media.

00:03:01.420 We're going to get into a couple of clips, some really shocking clips today, even from outlets like ESPN.

00:03:07.440 He had a New York Times magazine profile.

00:03:10.420 He's written a book.

00:03:11.880 He pursued that Olympic dream again, ended in 2021 after failing this testosterone test.

00:03:17.200 But Mina is amazing.

00:03:18.520 She argues that every time a male athlete enters a female competition,

00:03:24.080 a woman gets cut from the roster to make room.

00:03:26.840 Really, really powerful, compelling stuff.

00:03:28.640 So you can check out this interview with Mina Sward here.

00:03:32.100 Well, Mina, thank you for joining the Gains for Girls podcast.

00:03:35.460 I have seen you and your story everywhere the past week or so.

00:03:40.620 You had a beautiful op-ed come out in the Wall Street Journal titled,

00:03:45.760 My Stolen NCAA Championship.

00:03:47.800 So before we get into anything, can you just give us a little background on you,

00:03:52.020 your athletic career, and ultimately this experience that you described in this op-ed?

00:03:56.540 Of course.

00:03:58.580 First of all, thank you for having me.

00:04:00.360 It's an honor to be here.

00:04:03.040 But yeah, in 2017, I graduated high school here in Sweden,

00:04:07.860 and I decided to go to America to continue my studies as well as, you know,

00:04:14.000 combine my athletic career with my continued studies.

00:04:18.940 When I went to America, I continued the 400 hurdles and the pole vault, which was my main event.

00:04:29.060 So this national championship, can you describe that?

00:04:34.280 Again, take us to the time period.

00:04:35.560 This was 2019.

00:04:36.720 It was right before COVID.

00:04:37.800 I wanted to hear pretty specifically about, obviously, you had to compete against a male athlete.

00:04:44.240 This is a male athlete now who has garnered, I mean, national attention, whether it's for, of course, stealing.

00:04:51.340 I wouldn't say winning.

00:04:52.340 I would say stealing this national title.

00:04:55.220 His stance on the Olympics, the IOC, obviously vying for a spot in the 2028 Olympics even still.

00:05:02.540 Take us back to this national championships.

00:05:04.220 Did you know you were going to be competing against a male before you were on that track?

00:05:10.600 Yes, I found out a few weeks prior to the actual meet, you know, in the track community, people talk.

00:05:17.240 So eventually I heard that it would be a male competitor competing in the 400 meter hurdle event.

00:05:24.780 But going up to the meet, I talked to my coaches a little bit about it.

00:05:30.300 But the one thing that we tried to do was to focus on me and, you know, make sure that I was ready for the meet.

00:05:37.020 Because the one thing that I can really affect is my own results.

00:05:40.000 When I step on that track, I can't, I can't affect anyone else's results.

00:05:44.700 So I just wanted to, you know, stay true to myself and believe in what I could do.

00:05:50.040 Make sure that I was my best when I stepped on the track.

00:05:52.820 But, yeah, showing up to the meet, you could feel the tension.

00:05:58.480 You could feel that something was going on that wasn't, you know, like the years prior to this.

00:06:07.880 And you noticed who was the male competitor right away when you got there.

00:06:13.280 It was no doubt about it.

00:06:14.620 Yeah, we have a couple pictures here.

00:06:19.380 It is very obvious who the male is.

00:06:22.680 I think, of course, kindergartners would be able to tell the athlete that differs from every woman who is standing on that track. 0.66

00:06:31.400 So you, you, first of all, your athletic career in and of itself was, I mean, is phenomenal.

00:06:40.280 Everything that you've been able to accomplish, achieve in your sport and even beyond.

00:06:45.820 So you get on that track and you race.

00:06:49.180 What was that, that experience like?

00:06:52.040 It was a little heartbreaking.

00:06:53.840 You know, this is something that I worked so hard for, being able to even get the chance to stand on that stage.

00:07:03.180 I moved across the world from everything that I know from my life, from my family, from my culture, to get an experience like this.

00:07:11.140 And never did I believe that NCAA would put me in a situation, in a position where I had to compete against a man.

00:07:17.840 And so, when, before the race and when the race started, I didn't really know what to focus on.

00:07:27.260 I tried to just close everything out and focus on myself.

00:07:31.160 But just knowing the injustice of that entire race, I was shocked. 1.00

00:07:41.540 Yeah.

00:07:41.760 It sounds very similar to our experience as Division I swimmers.

00:07:47.580 The mindset that you described leading up to that national championships was very much the mindset that I had.

00:07:53.980 That my coaches tried to instill in me.

00:07:55.820 And then as a team captain, I tried to instill in my team, right?

00:07:58.880 Focus on what we know we can control.

00:08:01.960 We know we can control our attitudes and our efforts and how hard, you know, we're exerting ourselves in that pool.

00:08:07.700 That's what we can control.

00:08:09.140 Control the controllables.

00:08:10.200 Everything else is outside noise.

00:08:12.020 But it was really, really hard to kind of tune that out.

00:08:16.460 Because, again, while, of course, it was, there was, again, the national spotlight that was brought to our sport, probably similar to that of track, where swimming is not a sport that garners a lot of, you know, media attention, especially not on the national stage.

00:08:31.800 So, dealing with that, dealing with the feelings of just total violation in the locker room, it all amounted to something.

00:08:40.020 But to provide just a little context here, you finish, technically you were the fastest female runner, correct? 0.77

00:08:48.060 Yes, I was.

00:08:49.240 Yes.

00:08:49.560 So, you were the rightful NCAA champion.

00:08:54.260 Yes.

00:08:54.820 That's what NCAA would call the second place.

00:08:58.340 Wow.

00:08:58.780 Following this, again, in 2019, 2020, it wasn't favorable to take the stand that we have now taken.

00:09:08.620 You went online to post about this, to express, again, not hatred, nothing that was any sort of animosity or ill will directed to this male athlete or any particular group, but just to, I mean, just to highlight how the unfairness impacted women.

00:09:26.520 But you were attacked, is that right?

00:09:29.280 Yes, I was.

00:09:31.180 I posted that I was the fastest female athlete in the 400-meter hurdle, in that 400-meter hurdle race.

00:09:41.120 And I got attacked.

00:09:43.180 I got a bunch of people commenting on the picture.

00:09:49.160 It's about, like, 550 hate comments.

00:09:51.640 I got direct messages with people just threatening me and telling me what a bad person I was.

00:10:02.140 So, when this story has recently resurfaced, has the response and the reaction that you have received, has that been different, again, in 2025, in comparison to 2019, 2020?

00:10:13.880 It's completely different.

00:10:17.560 The people that's been reaching out to me now has been very supportive, and they just tell me to stay strong and keep fighting, and they're really proud over the females that are actually brave enough to speak up and speak out about something like this.

00:10:38.040 So, it's been completely different.

00:10:43.880 I think back to, again, six years ago in 2019, which is wild.

00:10:48.040 That was six years ago.

00:10:49.720 First of all, being even myself a college athlete at that time, it's amazing to me because I had no idea this happened.

00:10:56.380 Which I think goes to show you, number one, the censorship that existed and how dissenting viewpoints and all of that was totally barred in 2019.

00:11:06.860 We've come a long way even in regards to, I guess, the accuracy and the integrity of media and what is being presented and reported on.

00:11:16.540 But you were attacked meanwhile, I mean, CeCe, the male athlete, was celebrated and later even sympathized after failing a testosterone test that ultimately, of course, disqualified him from competing in the Olympics that had to be so frustrating to see.

00:11:33.040 It was very frustrating to see because I felt like the NCAA was allowing this to happen and while they wanted us to be silent about it, it felt like they let this male athlete walk all over me while they wanted me to applaud him.

00:11:54.820 And if I didn't, I was told I was being a horrible person.

00:11:59.880 All while CeCe was getting the, I guess, the notion of being brave and the list goes on.

00:12:08.840 But I have a clip of CeCe back in 2019, pretty immediately actually following that national championships that you've described where you were the fastest female athlete.

00:12:18.380 The gasp, I gasped when I saw this.

00:12:22.480 Let's play this clip.

00:12:23.200 The criticism that has been levied at you is that here you are doing this.

00:12:27.580 You've got an advantage, people say, over cisgender women. 1.00

00:12:30.560 You've actually said it's the opposite.

00:12:31.940 Yes.

00:12:32.260 Talk about that.

00:12:32.580 Confirmed.

00:12:33.220 So it's not, if anything, me competing against cisgender females is a disadvantage because my body is going on, going through so many medical implications.

00:12:43.440 Like it's going through biochemistry changes.

00:12:45.660 So being on, you know, hormone placement therapy, it gives you, so your muscle depletion, your muscle is deteriorating.

00:12:56.860 You lose a lot of strength because, you know, testosterone is where you get your strength, your agility, all of that athletic stuff.

00:13:04.480 So I have to work twice as hard to keep that strength.

00:13:07.860 And if I slack a day, that's like three days set behind.

00:13:11.520 First of all, this was on ESPN.

00:13:13.820 I would argue, maybe not, I mean, certainly not anymore, but one of the most trusted and viewed sports outlets in America, probably across the world.

00:13:24.760 This is on ESPN.

00:13:26.580 Then this male, again, do we have, can we show the photo of, of this male outside of this male?

00:13:34.420 For those who are listening and don't get to see the photo, it is very obviously what is a male with a raging eight pack and like biceps, boulder shoulders.

00:13:44.660 Um, this male then goes on to say that you all as women actually had the advantage and he was at a disadvantage.

00:13:55.140 Does it get any more deluded than that?

00:13:58.300 I mean, when you're listening to this, I mean, you, you must just be in total disbelief.

00:14:02.760 Like again, majority of not even just Americans, majority of people across the world when they hear that.

00:14:07.820 Honestly, when I, when I see that and when I hear it, I just get even more aggravated.

00:14:16.120 Like I can't, I can't understand that it actually happened, that it was allowed, that it just went by.

00:14:25.440 And like you said, that so many people didn't even know about it, that it actually happened.

00:14:31.180 It's, it's crazy.

00:14:33.400 Yeah, that's crazy.

00:14:34.720 And he talks about, you know, losing strength and having to maintain strength.

00:14:39.500 Yes, of course, when you were altering yourself, uh, synthetically, not naturally, uh, as a male, you are going to lose strength, but you are losing strength from what already is a male.

00:14:50.640 So he talks about having to maintain again, what he is maintaining is in fact, male strength.

00:14:56.860 Uh, you mentioned, of course, you're not from the United States.

00:15:00.700 Uh, when you moved to the U.S., were you just shocked by this type of sex-based discrimination that you faced?

00:15:10.920 When I moved to America, you know, everything that you hear from this side of the world is like, well, you get to go to America to live the American dream.

00:15:23.840 You get to experience, you know, what everybody talks so highly about.

00:15:28.280 And then to go over there and experience something like this, that's not at all what I thought would ever be in my cards of being in America.

00:15:42.200 No, no, in your piece, again, your op-ed in the Wall Street Journal, uh, the subtitle of it, and you write in there, I was the first college woman to be told her victory was worth less than a man's feelings.

00:15:56.080 And I thought this was really, really powerful because, again, it is, that's the mantra, uh, that's the message that's being sent that this man's feelings, this, this single man's identity is worth more than all women's, uh, dignity, uh, all women's privacy in areas of undressing, all women's opportunities.

00:16:15.920 In a lot of sports, uh, one man's feelings is worth all girls' safety, especially sports where you're colliding, throwing something at one another.

00:16:24.080 Uh, so I thought that was, was really beautifully written, uh, and in there, of course, you, you stated your support for President Trump's executive order, keeping men out of women's sports, uh, but you, you go on to say it doesn't go far enough in rectifying these past injustices.

00:16:39.920 Yesterday, the Trump administration freezed, I, I think it was $175 million in federal funding to UPenn after their failure to, to really after their policy that allowed, uh, the male that competed against me and my teammates to participate on the women's team.

00:16:57.860 This is a step in the right direction, but we are far from the finish line.

00:17:02.800 Uh, this just happened in Oregon yesterday.

00:17:06.080 We've got a clip of it here.

00:17:09.920 Again, for those who, who couldn't see the clip, uh, this was a male student, uh, who just won gold in the girls, 400 meter varsity race at the Portland Interscholastic League meet in Oregon.

00:17:29.280 Ada is what he goes by now, formerly Aiden Gallagher.

00:17:32.820 Uh, he said a season record after finishing seven seconds ahead, over seven seconds ahead of his female competitors.

00:17:41.000 All that to say, again, we are far from, from eliminating the injustice that women are facing at the hands of these, uh, progressive inclusive, of course, that's in quotes policies.

00:17:53.380 So what more would you like to see from the administration?

00:17:56.740 And again, to, to, I mean, broader than that across the world.

00:18:02.820 You mean from, uh, an NCAA standpoint?

00:18:07.500 I think more so from like, from these larger governing bodies or even the Trump administration, uh, right.

00:18:14.620 We're, we're seeing some, some moves, but what about things like, uh, removing trophies or honors or records or titles, uh, stolen by these men and returning them to their, to their rightful owners?

00:18:27.500 Uh, anything else you can think of that could be done to, again, help in some way.

00:18:33.440 Again, justice, it, it moves the pace of a snail oftentimes, but to rectify some of the wrongdoing that women have been on the receiving end of. 1.00

00:18:42.240 Yeah, that is something, um, that's absolutely something what you mentioned, like giving back the trophies, taking them back from the male athletes because they should have never had them in the first place.

00:18:54.000 Um, I also think that they need to be able to figure out a way of actually recognizing what is female and what is male.

00:19:05.940 They, they need to, in some ways, be able to separate those because there's a reason why we have two separate categories for male and female athletes.

00:19:19.440 Um, they shouldn't be combined because it's not fair.

00:19:22.200 It takes away the entire justice of sports.

00:19:26.000 Absolutely.

00:19:28.340 I'm sure you're familiar with the gains versus NCAA suit.

00:19:31.840 Uh, it's myself and I think 18, maybe 19 other athletes, female athletes who are signed onto this lawsuit.

00:19:38.560 Again, all women who have, uh, directly been impacted by the NCAA and their policies to stand up, of course, for ourselves.

00:19:47.200 But again, um, it's, it's much bigger than that to stand up for, for women like you, to stand up for girls like my younger sister.

00:19:54.840 So what do you hope to see come from this?

00:19:57.500 Is this something that you see, uh, being successful?

00:20:00.680 And, and again, I guess in the same vein, is there anything that the NCAA could do at this point to make up for what has happened to you?

00:20:09.300 The NCAA needs to be able to take accountability, accountability for what they have done.

00:20:15.320 They need to, I think that they need to go out and actually apologize for what they have put all those female athletes, athletes through. 0.66

00:20:24.120 Um, they need to, um, they need to own up to the mistake that they made, putting us through the bullying, the silencing.

00:20:32.960 And, you know, the females like you who had to endure the locker room situation, um, the abuse that they forced upon female athletes when they didn't even let people have a chance to say no. 1.00

00:20:47.880 They took away your consent.

00:20:50.400 And I think all of those things, they have to, they have to really feel what they did towards, uh, female athletes.

00:21:01.080 Um, and I think that's bigger than just going out to say they're sorry.

00:21:06.580 They have to really sit through this trial and realize they need, they need to hear the stories.

00:21:11.760 People need to speak up.

00:21:13.560 Yeah, that's definitely what we're hoping to accomplish in this lawsuit.

00:21:19.420 Um, look, I'm, I'm so grateful for you.

00:21:21.700 I'm grateful for your voice.

00:21:23.160 Um, I'm grateful that, uh, you have allowed yourself to re-endure this again, uh, having gone through it in 2019, 2020 versus now.

00:21:33.640 I hope you feel the support across the world.

00:21:37.260 Uh, I hope you have a strong support wheel around you.

00:21:40.200 People who are, are like anchors in your life.

00:21:43.100 Um, because again, you're, you're making a huge difference.

00:21:46.220 So we're very grateful for you, Mina.

00:21:48.480 So thank you.

00:21:49.540 Thank you so much.

00:21:50.820 And you have been a massive inspiration for me to even be able to be brave enough and to do this and to take the steps to actually speak up about my own story.

00:22:01.740 So I thank you for that.

00:22:03.640 Oh, that's very sweet.

00:22:06.540 Thank you guys for tuning in to the Gains for Girls podcast.

00:22:09.440 Uh, as you know, you can go to outkick.com.

00:22:11.600 That's where you can find all things Gains for Girls and like, and subscribe.

00:22:15.320 You can share these episodes.

00:22:16.960 Uh, we have another episode coming out on Wednesday, so make sure you're following along for that.

00:22:22.220 Um, I just want to remind you one of the things that was written in her Wall Street Journal piece.

00:22:28.040 And one of the things we talked about today, just the quote, I was the first college woman to be told her victory was worth less than a man's feelings.

00:22:37.180 Really sit on that.

00:22:38.840 Uh, really think about, think about that and think about what's at stake.

00:22:42.360 If people like you and me and Mina don't stand up for the truth, uh, that's what this is about.

00:22:48.800 It's not about hatred.

00:22:49.560 It's not about, uh, any of the things the left likes to say it's about.

00:22:53.740 It is about standing up for women, standing up for truth, common sense, sanity, logic, reasoning, science.

00:23:00.600 What happened to follow the science?

00:23:02.780 Um, anyways, glad you guys are here.

00:23:04.240 Check us out at outkick.com and we will see you again next week.

Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - March 21, 2025

When a Man Steals a Woman's NCAA Championship with Minna Svard

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