Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - Where's the Support for Real Women？

00:00:00.000 welcome back to the games for girls podcast thank you guys for tuning in make sure you check us out

00:00:11.820 anywhere where you can get your podcast be sure to check us out at outkick.com uh today's guest

00:00:18.440 i am so excited for uh you can expect to hear some british accents in today's episode uh because

00:00:25.740 these are the five female nurses coming from uh darlington from the united kingdom over in england

00:00:32.500 across the pond but five courageous nurses who have been speaking publicly following the launch

00:00:39.160 of a a landmark legal case uh brought against the nhs after these nurses were told that they needed

00:00:45.520 to broaden their mindset and to be more inclusive after asking not to share a changing room with a

00:00:53.620 male identifying as a woman uh you can probably imagine what these women have faced in terms of

00:00:59.880 the backlash in terms of the stifling of their speech but really uh the experience that they have

00:01:07.180 is is horrendous uh medical professionals nonetheless uh where biological reality not only does it matter

00:01:17.060 it is crucial uh it is necessary uh that we are remaining uh true to to what is objective

00:01:25.660 uh and again a truth that that we have never struggled to understand um could not be more

00:01:31.380 excited so check out the interview here with the five darlington nurses well thank you guys or should

00:01:38.140 i really say you girls uh for joining the games for girls podcast uh i saw your story break a few months

00:01:45.960 ago and in reading uh what you guys went through in terms of the policies in place in terms of the

00:01:54.280 threats and the intimidation and the stifling of your speech and of your expression i saw so many

00:02:01.520 similarities to what um we're facing here in the u.s what i faced uh personally as a female athlete

00:02:08.680 and so i could not be more excited to be able to talk with you guys uh of course you are across the

00:02:15.400 pond and so if you are listening or watching you all have the pleasure of hearing a bunch of british

00:02:21.000 accents with really nothing better than um but really i just wanted to give you guys the opportunity

00:02:27.560 to to be able to give a a synopsis of the policies of which i'm referring to um the instances that led you

00:02:37.520 to where you are now and and taking this firm and public stance for women and for the truth

00:02:43.400 and so we'll start with um lisa if you kind of want to to go over um what who you guys are first

00:02:50.240 and foremost and what you've been through so um we're darlington nurses um we work in the day

00:02:57.160 surgery unit at um darlington hospital um and um about a year ago we we realized there was a man

00:03:06.360 uh well a a trans woman that was using our changing room um and it's that it's kind of sort of slowly 1.00

00:03:14.840 filtered through i think because of the shift patterns and everything else we didn't not everybody was

00:03:21.800 aware of it at first so there was kind of a little bit of um a bit of time where we would just go in

00:03:28.460 the changing room and one of us would hear this man's voice and think what and then speak to somebody

00:03:35.040 else and i think we were all quite sort of hesitant to speak to even each other about it at first

00:03:40.800 because we just weren't sure how everyone was going to react and how everyone was going to feel about

00:03:47.840 it um and then over time obviously there were more and more of us had sort of mentioned things and then

00:03:54.680 it got where beth um mentioned her concerns to our junior sister on the unit um and that was about

00:04:02.380 august last year i think um and from there we've sort of been told that it was being investigated

00:04:10.560 that the matrons were discussing it um to then sort of not really hearing anything else

00:04:19.180 you know and everything just just this kind of radio silence from the trust that you know it's a very

00:04:26.380 sensitive issue that's kind of all we got it's just a sensitive issue and i think they're just very

00:04:32.480 much of hope that we were going to just shut up and investigation was being conducted all the while

00:04:39.500 uh this male was still using the locker room yeah yeah very very much so um so we we have sort of heard

00:04:49.680 um the this male works in the um the the operating department um and we had sort of heard from the staff

00:05:01.380 that worked with him that um you know though he goes by a female name he doesn't really wear

00:05:08.320 particularly female clothes um just kind of jeans and a t-shirt and trainers um

00:05:15.540 um and um we've been sort of told by colleagues of his that he stopped taking female hormones that he

00:05:22.860 was um that because he was wanting to try and get his girlfriend pregnant um which um you know a

00:05:31.180 sexually active man in in a female changing room just made i think all of us feel hideously 0.82

00:05:38.280 uncomfortable um so um we we kind of we've we'd raised it again um to the point where i think a

00:05:48.980 letter went to hr um and we just hadn't heard anything back um and i think was was that when you

00:05:57.060 went to beth went to um she went and sought legal advice after that because i think we've just really

00:06:03.640 felt like we've been ignored for such a long time of course um so you mentioned this was in august of

00:06:09.680 last year so you all have been fighting this for for nearly a year now to really know any sort of

00:06:16.820 administrative help uh anyone who is looking out for you as staff members as women um beth i want to

00:06:26.240 ask you so you went through this um what people i don't think could could possibly understand uh

00:06:36.960 unless you have been through it are the feelings of utter violation again speaking personally here

00:06:43.920 the feelings of utter violation the feelings of and of course it's awkward it's embarrassing it's

00:06:49.520 uncomfortable um it's pretty innate to to cover yourselves uh when someone with a male gaze and

00:06:56.740 a male's voice is in that locker room can you kind of just walk through the the raw emotion

00:07:02.280 and the feelings of being a woman who is non-consensually being exploited while also simultaneously being

00:07:11.240 exposed to a naked male and in this case a naked male who again i'm not one to speculate on anyone's

00:07:18.980 life or quite frankly care what anyone does behind closed doors but in this case as it appears a man

00:07:24.600 who is is it's almost like a camera should just pop out i'd be like oh you've been on an episode of

00:07:28.900 pranked yeah it's um it's utterly humiliating for us completely humiliating you know any sort of

00:07:37.640 dignity that we had i mean we don't enjoy changing in front of each other anyway we kind of do it sort

00:07:42.420 of privately and you know in a specific way and so we don't expose ourselves to anybody but then to

00:07:48.060 hear a male voice and then see a man in the change room it is just it's just unbelievable um you know

00:07:56.060 and we've had nurses who've had panic attacks before they've gone on this shift because they've felt so

00:08:00.300 unsafe so humiliated um we have one colleague who has some past trauma sexual trauma um and you know

00:08:10.460 she she just can't cope with this it's been horrendous for her absolutely horrendous um

00:08:16.220 and you just feel like there's no support at all like that we are the people you know we're the ones

00:08:22.740 causing the problem um and that they are they are the trust the hospital are prepared to defend this male

00:08:30.540 over their female colleagues no doubt i think it's important how you mentioned just wanting to feel safe

00:08:39.380 yeah and when you work it like that i mean it's essentially as if you're demanding the bare minimum

00:08:44.820 yes wanting to feel safe in an intimate space uh i saw a quote from uh from one of you uh it was

00:08:53.420 listed in an article that said it said word for word it says for me it is about wanting to feel safe

00:08:57.880 i don't want to be panicking or looking over my shoulder while getting ready to work in a hospital

00:09:02.560 caring for patients uh we should not have to feel afraid people say you are brave for speaking out but

00:09:07.960 why should it be brave to speak out on these issues why should we even have to um i think

00:09:13.800 that is so beautifully put and again i think it's important you mentioned women who have uh in some

00:09:19.320 way experienced some sort of sexual violence or have been sexually harassed or or in pretty horrific

00:09:26.600 instances women who have been raped yeah um i've talked to a woman who has been raped in a bathroom setting

00:09:31.960 um previously who then was forced to undress in front of a man and again i don't think you could

00:09:38.340 possibly understand what that's like um unless you unfortunately have had to experience that

00:09:44.760 um but the policy that was in place at the hospital uh would one of you be willing to speak

00:09:50.720 what this policy is what it says um joanne um and why specifically it needs to change if you know the

00:09:58.360 policy you're probably asking the wrong person because my memory is absolutely shocking right

00:10:05.400 um i can probably remember bits of it so i think beth's the person that knows it off my heart

00:10:13.560 i feel silly now but um yeah so basically remember yeah so basically it allows um a transgender person

00:10:25.300 as soon as they fully declare that they are living in the gender that they want to live in

00:10:29.940 they are allowed access um into the facilities that they want to go into uh they don't have to prove

00:10:35.980 anything they just have to self-id and they're allowed in there's no sort of you know you've got to be

00:10:42.920 dressing like a female or taking hormones or anything like that you are allowed in regardless 0.98

00:10:48.240 so it's entirely vague isn't it it's very vague put it that way yeah um it's entirely self-id which

00:10:57.140 i mean it leaves it up for to be totally frank uh perverts yeah well this is the issue is that

00:11:04.440 there's a loophole anybody can access the facility they just have to say well i identify as a female 0.99

00:11:10.740 let me in um and one of the most one of the most insulting things um about the policy was that if

00:11:19.780 it states that if we have a problem with it if there are any females that have a problem with this 1.00

00:11:24.000 policy they have to go and change elsewhere wow and this is a policy that's in place across

00:11:31.080 uh the nhs so the national health services i think it differs slightly um it the wording might be

00:11:39.860 different but the the general feeling of it is there when we queried the policy we were told that

00:11:47.200 we needed to be educated and trained which is absolutely disgusting we're like professional 0.94

00:11:54.280 women who have degrees masters and a lot of qualifications we're not idiots but we were made 0.99

00:12:01.000 to feel like absolute idiots and worthless yeah the qualifications that you guys guys have not to 0.99

00:12:09.340 mention the fact that you all i mean what they're essentially asking you to do is ignore your gut 1.00

00:12:15.280 instinct to let your guard down to get naked anyway just shut up anyways um which is again um asinine i

00:12:24.160 think is an appropriate way to describe it um after all of this after you guys i i understand you

00:12:31.500 anonymously at first uh kind of took an anonymous stand but then were brave enough to publicly put your

00:12:38.340 names in your faces to this uh what was the response that you had from the hospital system uh from

00:12:47.320 colleagues uh after going public i think um most colleagues in in our department have been quite

00:12:55.500 supportive haven't the girls um yeah definitely yeah there have been and our line manager has been

00:13:01.840 absolutely amazing um we've had a bit of hostility from um theater staff because obviously they're

00:13:10.720 friends um with with this person and i think they actually feel you know they feel sorry um for this

00:13:18.560 person that how do you think girls that we've been made to feel um yeah we're being discriminated

00:13:25.060 bullies but that's so not what we are and we haven't bullied or discriminated anybody really

00:13:31.780 we're the ones that have been discriminated yeah i think people are forgetting the bigger picture what

00:13:37.680 we're doing it for um and that's the main thing we're doing it you know because we want a policy

00:13:43.040 change really we want we need to get a change in policy so that you know female changing rooms are safe 1.00

00:13:50.080 and just for females but um i think people are sort of not seeing that yeah it's more they think it's

00:13:57.420 an attack on this one person yeah right and and you know we we have been sort of you you don't say

00:14:05.880 anything you literally if you complain it's like you you're transphobic and we we look after

00:14:13.820 transgender patients you know it's like part of our job we get patients in who are transgender

00:14:19.160 and our trust actually has a policy that well in fact the nhs has a policy that says um that

00:14:26.380 transgender patients should not be mixed with um you know with them with other patients in that bay 1.00

00:14:33.420 so you know if you've got somebody who's identifying as a woman they should not be nursed in a bay with 1.00

00:14:38.900 women so there's a policy for patients but actually not for us so you know go bigger i don't work that one out 1.00

00:14:46.520 i saw a um a post online uh of a little flyer that went up on the door to the changing room 0.97

00:15:01.120 that you guys have been had been pathetic pathetic can you you speak about what was on this poster 0.84

00:15:08.320 um and kind of the timeline this was after you guys spoke out do we know who put the poster up on the 0.99

00:15:15.440 door no nobody's taking any responsibility nobody's owning up to it it was just it was just there

00:15:23.120 just wasn't there for long mind but it was there and what did it say again um

00:15:30.080 inclusive change area the changing area do not remove this sign at the top do not remove this sign

00:15:37.440 at the bottom in a very rainbow mix of color like just sort of silhouettes of people i think um

00:15:45.360 inclusive changing area yeah i am we've been following of course the u.s really globally uh it

00:15:55.360 seems it seems the world is a mess right now but i have a husband who is british he is from england

00:16:02.540 uh and so we we tend to follow uh the political environment uh overseas in the uk uh and we saw

00:16:11.760 recently there is a new labor government in place uh in the uk um and they've been weak on being able 0.90

00:16:21.540 to answer uh whether women can get pregnant whether women can have penises uh your i believe the new 0.82

00:16:30.040 foreign secretary for example um he went as far to say that it's not accurate it's not biologically 0.73

00:16:36.400 accurate to say that only women have cervix which again has been a problem not yet so you see this

00:16:45.020 um again to my understanding i believe there was a a conservative and i i definitely use air quotes

00:16:51.260 there's been a conservative government over the last 14 years in england uh but nonetheless the trans 0.98

00:16:58.180 issue the gender ideology movement as a whole it seemed to have crept in even under conservative

00:17:03.020 leadership and so just nervous now uh with with progressive leadership uh that gasoline will

00:17:13.080 essentially be poured on the fire in regard to these issues uh with the changing of the power to

00:17:18.700 the labor party and how do you think i guess this will impact uh the uk uh and women's rights as it

00:17:25.400 pertains to health care but but really even broader than that as a whole i think we're i think we're all

00:17:30.160 very nervous about it um you know that labor have been very very um supportive of of you know

00:17:41.280 of the whole the whole issue i guess you know and it's they've kind of gone away from

00:17:50.200 protecting women's rights and they've they've sort of started to backtrack as the election was coming 0.99

00:17:56.520 up and you know we got keith starmer saying you know women you know we should protect women's um

00:18:02.480 biological safe spaces and stuff but um you know there's there's been a whole load of stuff gone

00:18:09.360 before where you know there's been there's been rapists in women's prisons you know it's it's like 1.00

00:18:14.960 really you can't even believe that this has been allowed to happen you know but it has

00:18:21.600 um so yeah i think we feel nervous about um about where it's going to go and i think that's partly

00:18:28.220 why we kind of want to keep pushing um pushing this this issue with our trust we want to highlight it

00:18:37.580 so that more women can say actually you know we aren't happy with it yeah because i think there's 0.76

00:18:43.340 been a lot of women before we before we highlighted this to our trust there were a lot of women who 1.00

00:18:50.360 were unhappy in that changing room who have maybe tried to go to management and say something and have

00:18:57.260 been basically um made to feel like they were absolute bigots transphobes and they've been silenced

00:19:04.800 and so we we don't want that uh we we want to keep pushing we don't want this to carry on

00:19:11.280 you know we want to put the brakes on yeah and we want to give other women in the same position as 1.00

00:19:17.740 us the courage to come forward as well and just to just to know that they've they've got a voice and

00:19:24.880 don't be scared to use it because we we have been scared and obviously we've never done anything like

00:19:30.980 this before and there's times where we've all thought shh oh i was going to swear then sorry

00:19:36.360 are we doing the right thing but yeah that have happened recently with the trust and how they've

00:19:44.240 handled things have just confirmed to me that with nothing more than a payroll number at the end of

00:19:51.040 the day and we've got a fight and we'll just keep going until we get get what we want basically and

00:19:57.420 that we've got a lot of support we've had a lot of fan mail like letters from people cards just on

00:20:05.080 the whole a positive encouragement for to keep going with this and we're very passionate about it and

00:20:13.020 i think the trust think we're just going to back down at some point and not carry it through but we

00:20:18.560 will i love it yeah i've seen um where you guys have i mean you vowed to keep fighting you've said you

00:20:25.380 won't be threatened you won't be ignored uh you mentioned the support i've seen public support

00:20:30.760 uh from jk rowling for you guys which has got to be pretty cool uh to be able to receive it

00:20:36.640 people like sharon davies who have been uh really at the forefront and fighting much longer than

00:20:45.260 than i mean i have than you guys have fighting for these issues and so it's got to be pretty cool to

00:20:51.280 receive uh that support from from very high profile influential people and yourself riley exactly

00:20:59.780 my son even knows who you are and he's 17 and i was like this and i said your name and he was like oh

00:21:08.560 my god she's been on somebody's show and he said she's really famous but i was like all right

00:21:15.860 oh my goodness well i feel um just like you guys said uh i don't feel like this has this should be

00:21:26.580 the platform that that we that my i have been able to build from saying something so simple for saying

00:21:33.740 something that everyone already knows everything we've talked about on this this this podcast has

00:21:40.560 been nothing profound not to be you know not to to take away from what you guys are dealing with but

00:21:47.600 but what you're saying is so basic it is so simple it's crucial and just as you said joanne

00:21:54.200 uh it is contagious courage is contagious it is a it is a rare and lost uh trait it is a rare and lost

00:22:02.660 characteristic um but i believe it's making its comeback but only because of people like you guys

00:22:08.120 you mentioned also just some of the the scare tactics and again the stifling of speech i saw

00:22:14.340 where um some international nurses were scared to sign on to to the initial letter uh they didn't want 0.65

00:22:21.840 to have their visas revoked again my own experience with my husband being um foreign and and moving over 1.00

00:22:30.680 to the united states we've been married for over two years and they still won't give him his green card

00:22:35.280 uh we have tried to follow up with whoever we can to find out hey we've been we've been married two

00:22:41.800 years uh illegals are coming across the border and they're getting a whole passport he can't even get 0.98

00:22:47.060 a green card to which they've come up with different excuses time and time again but i i largely believe

00:22:54.680 that it's because of the position and the stand and the persona that i have so again similar tactics to

00:23:02.420 what you guys face another parallel yeah when you speak of this pressure and intimidation

00:23:07.740 where do you feel mostly that it's coming from and can you share a few examples of again what has made

00:23:16.680 others or yourselves intimidated to speak out i think it's mainly coming from the the operating

00:23:23.100 department we call it theaters um here in the uk the staff around there i think have kind of been

00:23:29.800 silenced they've been told you know do you have a problem with this if so raise your hand and i mean

00:23:35.820 that's not conducive to people being honest um about their feelings and also if you've got a problem

00:23:41.360 about this knock on our door and we'll and basically they're going to get disciplined that's the feeling

00:23:45.540 that they've got from this um i mean my experience is that you know people have been uh very supportive

00:23:52.540 uh to my face and then you know gone on facebook and had a tirade about how appalling it is that

00:23:59.320 we've we've done this and um my other experiences are you know people are wanting to talk to me about

00:24:05.480 this but they're fearful that other members of staff will catch me and this other colleague talking so

00:24:11.060 they've kind of pulled me into a room to one side and had a chat and said you know do support you but

00:24:15.620 i'm just terrified that people are going to see us together and to the point where they've said can i leave

00:24:21.580 the room first and then can you leave two minutes after me i mean it's crazy absolutely crazy

00:24:27.420 i had a um a chat with a member of staff from theatres and they said they'd raised the issue

00:24:35.860 with theatre management over a year ago when they first realized a certain person was using the

00:24:40.800 facilities and they were told to not mention it that they can't speak they can't complain about it

00:24:49.020 because um there were being they weren't being inclusive and that they would be in trouble if

00:24:55.520 they brought the subject up again so i think that's quite that's the culture that the staff

00:25:01.860 there are living with really yeah they're being shut down you're told not to speak about it yeah

00:25:06.980 and again um globally in so many different settings which i think it's it's truthfully

00:25:14.780 probably the most concerning the most harmful in a medical professional setting uh you are the

00:25:22.100 people who are supposed to be providing care reporting on statistics um because ultimately

00:25:28.120 i mean health care statistics women's um health studies they're already incredibly underfunded 0.97

00:25:34.540 under researched and now when you include male data in these these um statistics it again harms

00:25:41.780 women um this issue this story is um i imagine i speak for you when i when i say that this is a lot

00:25:52.700 bigger than than than rose which is the male posing as a woman and it's impacting again women people

00:25:59.980 across the uk but but really across the world um do you feel it's accurate in saying that

00:26:06.780 definitely i don't think we realize how wide the problem is really and i hope like i say that we

00:26:17.100 find out through people's courage that they're willing to speak out and hopefully help them to

00:26:24.980 try and put things right and get better better policies in place and really the nhs is such a

00:26:32.520 massive organization organization here in england you you would think that they would have a handle

00:26:38.560 on this and be at the forefront but not at all and i'm quite shocked i was quite shocked really when

00:26:47.420 all this came to light but yeah it's quite sad really but i hope we can change what do you think the

00:26:54.440 message is that they're sending to you the nhs as women uh what's the message that you feel as if

00:27:01.840 you're receiving put up and put up yeah yeah the minority is more important than you know 51% of

00:27:14.600 the population really um we don't matter we don't matter yeah powerful i think it's powerful saying

00:27:22.900 that because again that's that's exactly the way i would describe it you're not worthy not only do you

00:27:28.220 not matter worthy that's it of engaging privately you're not worthy of of in our case being able

00:27:36.120 to compete fairly you don't get to call yourself a champion no you exist fed to validate the male's

00:27:42.380 feelings yes it's a terrible sending to young girls to women as girls i mean growing up at least i know i

00:27:50.880 was taught uh to not put myself at risk in situations like this um but that's exactly what

00:27:58.020 the nhs is doing to you guys and again to to countless other uh women in your same position 0.74

00:28:03.420 you guys have said many times that uh you're going to fight i guess my question for you is

00:28:11.160 and kind of final question here is why because we have to yeah um yeah have to there was the

00:28:18.580 on the yeah on the news this morning it was saying that um violence against women has gone up by 40%

00:28:26.160 in the uk in the last five years i mean those statistics are really really scary um and we

00:28:32.060 need to do things to make ourselves safe and that's why we're fighting and to to be at work and not feel

00:28:39.380 safe it's shocking and in a hospital i mean we should feel safe especially being one at work the employer

00:28:48.060 has a responsibility to keep you safe and they're just not doing that yeah and it's got to stop and

00:28:54.720 yeah we'll just keep going yeah and i think women have fought so long for their rights as well and it's

00:29:02.600 just been ripped from us not even slowly this is like ripped from us and it's it's absolutely

00:29:08.320 unbelievable and i've got a daughter and i do not want this for my daughter she is worth more than 0.91

00:29:13.180 that she's worth more than a man being allowed to walk in and change in front of her she's worth more

00:29:18.800 than that so yes i am willing to fight to the bitter end for this i mean we we watched a video

00:29:24.720 that um that you'd recorded um talking about your experience and kind of that you were like why has

00:29:32.220 nobody said anything why has nobody put a stop to this this is so obviously wrong yeah

00:29:37.660 um and it's kind of like because you just we didn't realize quite how difficult it was to

00:29:47.880 actually do that we didn't realize that we were going to be made to feel like such horrible

00:29:53.600 transphobic people that we were going to be you know treated the way that we've been treated we

00:29:59.040 honestly we we weren't expecting that um and to know that that's how so many other women have been 0.99

00:30:07.660 made to feel we kind of um we want them to know that you know you're not wrong you're not wrong to

00:30:17.680 feel uncomfortable taking your clothes off in front of a man who's pretending to be a woman 0.97

00:30:23.060 totally it is not you who needs to be re-educated it is not you who needs to go to training or to

00:30:29.500 therapy to learn how to cope with seeing male genitalia um no but again that's what you guys

00:30:35.860 and women across the world are being told uh so i again i am inspired by you all um and the stand that

00:30:45.460 you have taken and how that you have done it with a a sense of grace um as well as entirely unapologetic

00:30:53.600 uh which is again a a lost art and being true to yourself and standing up for what is right and

00:31:00.400 standing up for what is fair and just and moral uh but you guys have done it so so beautifully um and

00:31:06.300 so i appreciate you we will be following along uh and amplifying all of the updates that you guys have

00:31:13.160 on on your case your suit anything that we can do um we certainly will because again this is

00:31:19.260 is important for you guys personally for your daughters but it sets the precedent for the rest 0.91

00:31:24.840 of us the rest of the world and so thank you guys for sharing and for coming on you're welcome

00:31:30.420 i hope that you are feeling as inspired and encouraged by these nurses uh as i am uh we will

00:31:40.480 be watching for updates hopefully good updates in the near future uh again thank you guys for tuning

00:31:46.920 in again check us out at outkick.com like subscribe be sure to leave us a review anywhere where you get

00:31:53.800 your podcasts so the message that we are spreading can be sent out far and wide and we will see you all

00:32:00.700 again next week

00:32:01.460 you

Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - July 31, 2024

Where's the Support for Real Women？

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