Where's the Support for Real Women？
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Summary
The five courageous female nurses who have been speaking publicly following the launch of a landmark legal case brought against the NHS in the UK have been brave enough to speak publicly in support of a trans woman who was asked not to share a changing room with a male identifying as a woman.
Transcript
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welcome back to the games for girls podcast thank you guys for tuning in make sure you check us out
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anywhere where you can get your podcast be sure to check us out at outkick.com uh today's guest
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i am so excited for uh you can expect to hear some british accents in today's episode uh because
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these are the five female nurses coming from uh darlington from the united kingdom over in england
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across the pond but five courageous nurses who have been speaking publicly following the launch
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of a a landmark legal case uh brought against the nhs after these nurses were told that they needed
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to broaden their mindset and to be more inclusive after asking not to share a changing room with a
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male identifying as a woman uh you can probably imagine what these women have faced in terms of
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the backlash in terms of the stifling of their speech but really uh the experience that they have
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is is horrendous uh medical professionals nonetheless uh where biological reality not only does it matter
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it is crucial uh it is necessary uh that we are remaining uh true to to what is objective
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uh and again a truth that that we have never struggled to understand um could not be more
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excited so check out the interview here with the five darlington nurses well thank you guys or should
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i really say you girls uh for joining the games for girls podcast uh i saw your story break a few months
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ago and in reading uh what you guys went through in terms of the policies in place in terms of the
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threats and the intimidation and the stifling of your speech and of your expression i saw so many
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similarities to what um we're facing here in the u.s what i faced uh personally as a female athlete
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and so i could not be more excited to be able to talk with you guys uh of course you are across the
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pond and so if you are listening or watching you all have the pleasure of hearing a bunch of british
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accents with really nothing better than um but really i just wanted to give you guys the opportunity
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to to be able to give a a synopsis of the policies of which i'm referring to um the instances that led you
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to where you are now and and taking this firm and public stance for women and for the truth
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and so we'll start with um lisa if you kind of want to to go over um what who you guys are first
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and foremost and what you've been through so um we're darlington nurses um we work in the day
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surgery unit at um darlington hospital um and um about a year ago we we realized there was a man
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uh well a a trans woman that was using our changing room um and it's that it's kind of sort of slowly
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filtered through i think because of the shift patterns and everything else we didn't not everybody was
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aware of it at first so there was kind of a little bit of um a bit of time where we would just go in
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the changing room and one of us would hear this man's voice and think what and then speak to somebody
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else and i think we were all quite sort of hesitant to speak to even each other about it at first
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because we just weren't sure how everyone was going to react and how everyone was going to feel about
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it um and then over time obviously there were more and more of us had sort of mentioned things and then
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it got where beth um mentioned her concerns to our junior sister on the unit um and that was about
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august last year i think um and from there we've sort of been told that it was being investigated
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that the matrons were discussing it um to then sort of not really hearing anything else
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you know and everything just just this kind of radio silence from the trust that you know it's a very
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sensitive issue that's kind of all we got it's just a sensitive issue and i think they're just very
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much of hope that we were going to just shut up and investigation was being conducted all the while
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uh this male was still using the locker room yeah yeah very very much so um so we we have sort of heard
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um the this male works in the um the the operating department um and we had sort of heard from the staff
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that worked with him that um you know though he goes by a female name he doesn't really wear
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particularly female clothes um just kind of jeans and a t-shirt and trainers um
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um and um we've been sort of told by colleagues of his that he stopped taking female hormones that he
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was um that because he was wanting to try and get his girlfriend pregnant um which um you know a
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sexually active man in in a female changing room just made i think all of us feel hideously
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uncomfortable um so um we we kind of we've we'd raised it again um to the point where i think a
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letter went to hr um and we just hadn't heard anything back um and i think was was that when you
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went to beth went to um she went and sought legal advice after that because i think we've just really
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felt like we've been ignored for such a long time of course um so you mentioned this was in august of
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last year so you all have been fighting this for for nearly a year now to really know any sort of
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administrative help uh anyone who is looking out for you as staff members as women um beth i want to
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ask you so you went through this um what people i don't think could could possibly understand uh
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unless you have been through it are the feelings of utter violation again speaking personally here
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the feelings of utter violation the feelings of and of course it's awkward it's embarrassing it's
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uncomfortable um it's pretty innate to to cover yourselves uh when someone with a male gaze and
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a male's voice is in that locker room can you kind of just walk through the the raw emotion
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and the feelings of being a woman who is non-consensually being exploited while also simultaneously being
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exposed to a naked male and in this case a naked male who again i'm not one to speculate on anyone's
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life or quite frankly care what anyone does behind closed doors but in this case as it appears a man
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who is is it's almost like a camera should just pop out i'd be like oh you've been on an episode of
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pranked yeah it's um it's utterly humiliating for us completely humiliating you know any sort of
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dignity that we had i mean we don't enjoy changing in front of each other anyway we kind of do it sort
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of privately and you know in a specific way and so we don't expose ourselves to anybody but then to
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hear a male voice and then see a man in the change room it is just it's just unbelievable um you know
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and we've had nurses who've had panic attacks before they've gone on this shift because they've felt so
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unsafe so humiliated um we have one colleague who has some past trauma sexual trauma um and you know
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she she just can't cope with this it's been horrendous for her absolutely horrendous um
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and you just feel like there's no support at all like that we are the people you know we're the ones
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causing the problem um and that they are they are the trust the hospital are prepared to defend this male
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over their female colleagues no doubt i think it's important how you mentioned just wanting to feel safe
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yeah and when you work it like that i mean it's essentially as if you're demanding the bare minimum
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yes wanting to feel safe in an intimate space uh i saw a quote from uh from one of you uh it was
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listed in an article that said it said word for word it says for me it is about wanting to feel safe
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i don't want to be panicking or looking over my shoulder while getting ready to work in a hospital
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caring for patients uh we should not have to feel afraid people say you are brave for speaking out but
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why should it be brave to speak out on these issues why should we even have to um i think
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that is so beautifully put and again i think it's important you mentioned women who have uh in some
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way experienced some sort of sexual violence or have been sexually harassed or or in pretty horrific
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instances women who have been raped yeah um i've talked to a woman who has been raped in a bathroom setting
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um previously who then was forced to undress in front of a man and again i don't think you could
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possibly understand what that's like um unless you unfortunately have had to experience that
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um but the policy that was in place at the hospital uh would one of you be willing to speak
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what this policy is what it says um joanne um and why specifically it needs to change if you know the
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policy you're probably asking the wrong person because my memory is absolutely shocking right
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um i can probably remember bits of it so i think beth's the person that knows it off my heart
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i feel silly now but um yeah so basically remember yeah so basically it allows um a transgender person
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as soon as they fully declare that they are living in the gender that they want to live in
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they are allowed access um into the facilities that they want to go into uh they don't have to prove
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anything they just have to self-id and they're allowed in there's no sort of you know you've got to be
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dressing like a female or taking hormones or anything like that you are allowed in regardless
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so it's entirely vague isn't it it's very vague put it that way yeah um it's entirely self-id which
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i mean it leaves it up for to be totally frank uh perverts yeah well this is the issue is that
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there's a loophole anybody can access the facility they just have to say well i identify as a female
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let me in um and one of the most one of the most insulting things um about the policy was that if
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it states that if we have a problem with it if there are any females that have a problem with this
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policy they have to go and change elsewhere wow and this is a policy that's in place across
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uh the nhs so the national health services i think it differs slightly um it the wording might be
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different but the the general feeling of it is there when we queried the policy we were told that
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we needed to be educated and trained which is absolutely disgusting we're like professional
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women who have degrees masters and a lot of qualifications we're not idiots but we were made
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to feel like absolute idiots and worthless yeah the qualifications that you guys guys have not to
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mention the fact that you all i mean what they're essentially asking you to do is ignore your gut
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instinct to let your guard down to get naked anyway just shut up anyways um which is again um asinine i
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think is an appropriate way to describe it um after all of this after you guys i i understand you
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anonymously at first uh kind of took an anonymous stand but then were brave enough to publicly put your
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names in your faces to this uh what was the response that you had from the hospital system uh from
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colleagues uh after going public i think um most colleagues in in our department have been quite
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supportive haven't the girls um yeah definitely yeah there have been and our line manager has been
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absolutely amazing um we've had a bit of hostility from um theater staff because obviously they're
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friends um with with this person and i think they actually feel you know they feel sorry um for this
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person that how do you think girls that we've been made to feel um yeah we're being discriminated
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bullies but that's so not what we are and we haven't bullied or discriminated anybody really
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we're the ones that have been discriminated yeah i think people are forgetting the bigger picture what
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we're doing it for um and that's the main thing we're doing it you know because we want a policy
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change really we want we need to get a change in policy so that you know female changing rooms are safe
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and just for females but um i think people are sort of not seeing that yeah it's more they think it's
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an attack on this one person yeah right and and you know we we have been sort of you you don't say
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anything you literally if you complain it's like you you're transphobic and we we look after
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transgender patients you know it's like part of our job we get patients in who are transgender
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and our trust actually has a policy that well in fact the nhs has a policy that says um that
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transgender patients should not be mixed with um you know with them with other patients in that bay
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so you know if you've got somebody who's identifying as a woman they should not be nursed in a bay with
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women so there's a policy for patients but actually not for us so you know go bigger i don't work that one out
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i saw a um a post online uh of a little flyer that went up on the door to the changing room
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that you guys have been had been pathetic pathetic can you you speak about what was on this poster
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um and kind of the timeline this was after you guys spoke out do we know who put the poster up on the
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door no nobody's taking any responsibility nobody's owning up to it it was just it was just there
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just wasn't there for long mind but it was there and what did it say again um
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inclusive change area the changing area do not remove this sign at the top do not remove this sign
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at the bottom in a very rainbow mix of color like just sort of silhouettes of people i think um
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inclusive changing area yeah i am we've been following of course the u.s really globally uh it
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seems it seems the world is a mess right now but i have a husband who is british he is from england
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uh and so we we tend to follow uh the political environment uh overseas in the uk uh and we saw
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recently there is a new labor government in place uh in the uk um and they've been weak on being able
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to answer uh whether women can get pregnant whether women can have penises uh your i believe the new
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foreign secretary for example um he went as far to say that it's not accurate it's not biologically
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accurate to say that only women have cervix which again has been a problem not yet so you see this
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um again to my understanding i believe there was a a conservative and i i definitely use air quotes
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there's been a conservative government over the last 14 years in england uh but nonetheless the trans
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issue the gender ideology movement as a whole it seemed to have crept in even under conservative
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leadership and so just nervous now uh with with progressive leadership uh that gasoline will
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essentially be poured on the fire in regard to these issues uh with the changing of the power to
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the labor party and how do you think i guess this will impact uh the uk uh and women's rights as it
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pertains to health care but but really even broader than that as a whole i think we're i think we're all
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very nervous about it um you know that labor have been very very um supportive of of you know
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of the whole the whole issue i guess you know and it's they've kind of gone away from
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protecting women's rights and they've they've sort of started to backtrack as the election was coming
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up and you know we got keith starmer saying you know women you know we should protect women's um
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biological safe spaces and stuff but um you know there's there's been a whole load of stuff gone
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before where you know there's been there's been rapists in women's prisons you know it's it's like
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really you can't even believe that this has been allowed to happen you know but it has
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um so yeah i think we feel nervous about um about where it's going to go and i think that's partly
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why we kind of want to keep pushing um pushing this this issue with our trust we want to highlight it
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so that more women can say actually you know we aren't happy with it yeah because i think there's
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been a lot of women before we before we highlighted this to our trust there were a lot of women who
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were unhappy in that changing room who have maybe tried to go to management and say something and have
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been basically um made to feel like they were absolute bigots transphobes and they've been silenced
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and so we we don't want that uh we we want to keep pushing we don't want this to carry on
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you know we want to put the brakes on yeah and we want to give other women in the same position as
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us the courage to come forward as well and just to just to know that they've they've got a voice and
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don't be scared to use it because we we have been scared and obviously we've never done anything like
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this before and there's times where we've all thought shh oh i was going to swear then sorry
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are we doing the right thing but yeah that have happened recently with the trust and how they've
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handled things have just confirmed to me that with nothing more than a payroll number at the end of
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the day and we've got a fight and we'll just keep going until we get get what we want basically and
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that we've got a lot of support we've had a lot of fan mail like letters from people cards just on
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the whole a positive encouragement for to keep going with this and we're very passionate about it and
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i think the trust think we're just going to back down at some point and not carry it through but we
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will i love it yeah i've seen um where you guys have i mean you vowed to keep fighting you've said you
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won't be threatened you won't be ignored uh you mentioned the support i've seen public support
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uh from jk rowling for you guys which has got to be pretty cool uh to be able to receive it
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people like sharon davies who have been uh really at the forefront and fighting much longer than
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than i mean i have than you guys have fighting for these issues and so it's got to be pretty cool to
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receive uh that support from from very high profile influential people and yourself riley exactly
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my son even knows who you are and he's 17 and i was like this and i said your name and he was like oh
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my god she's been on somebody's show and he said she's really famous but i was like all right
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oh my goodness well i feel um just like you guys said uh i don't feel like this has this should be
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the platform that that we that my i have been able to build from saying something so simple for saying
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something that everyone already knows everything we've talked about on this this this podcast has
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been nothing profound not to be you know not to to take away from what you guys are dealing with but
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but what you're saying is so basic it is so simple it's crucial and just as you said joanne
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uh it is contagious courage is contagious it is a it is a rare and lost uh trait it is a rare and lost
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characteristic um but i believe it's making its comeback but only because of people like you guys
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you mentioned also just some of the the scare tactics and again the stifling of speech i saw
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where um some international nurses were scared to sign on to to the initial letter uh they didn't want
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to have their visas revoked again my own experience with my husband being um foreign and and moving over
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to the united states we've been married for over two years and they still won't give him his green card
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uh we have tried to follow up with whoever we can to find out hey we've been we've been married two
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years uh illegals are coming across the border and they're getting a whole passport he can't even get
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a green card to which they've come up with different excuses time and time again but i i largely believe
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that it's because of the position and the stand and the persona that i have so again similar tactics to
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what you guys face another parallel yeah when you speak of this pressure and intimidation
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where do you feel mostly that it's coming from and can you share a few examples of again what has made
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others or yourselves intimidated to speak out i think it's mainly coming from the the operating
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department we call it theaters um here in the uk the staff around there i think have kind of been
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silenced they've been told you know do you have a problem with this if so raise your hand and i mean
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that's not conducive to people being honest um about their feelings and also if you've got a problem
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about this knock on our door and we'll and basically they're going to get disciplined that's the feeling
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that they've got from this um i mean my experience is that you know people have been uh very supportive
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uh to my face and then you know gone on facebook and had a tirade about how appalling it is that
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we've we've done this and um my other experiences are you know people are wanting to talk to me about
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this but they're fearful that other members of staff will catch me and this other colleague talking so
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they've kind of pulled me into a room to one side and had a chat and said you know do support you but
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i'm just terrified that people are going to see us together and to the point where they've said can i leave
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the room first and then can you leave two minutes after me i mean it's crazy absolutely crazy
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i had a um a chat with a member of staff from theatres and they said they'd raised the issue
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with theatre management over a year ago when they first realized a certain person was using the
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facilities and they were told to not mention it that they can't speak they can't complain about it
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because um there were being they weren't being inclusive and that they would be in trouble if
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they brought the subject up again so i think that's quite that's the culture that the staff
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there are living with really yeah they're being shut down you're told not to speak about it yeah
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and again um globally in so many different settings which i think it's it's truthfully
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probably the most concerning the most harmful in a medical professional setting uh you are the
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people who are supposed to be providing care reporting on statistics um because ultimately
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i mean health care statistics women's um health studies they're already incredibly underfunded
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under researched and now when you include male data in these these um statistics it again harms
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women um this issue this story is um i imagine i speak for you when i when i say that this is a lot
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bigger than than than rose which is the male posing as a woman and it's impacting again women people
00:25:59.980
across the uk but but really across the world um do you feel it's accurate in saying that
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definitely i don't think we realize how wide the problem is really and i hope like i say that we
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find out through people's courage that they're willing to speak out and hopefully help them to
00:26:24.980
try and put things right and get better better policies in place and really the nhs is such a
00:26:32.520
massive organization organization here in england you you would think that they would have a handle
00:26:38.560
on this and be at the forefront but not at all and i'm quite shocked i was quite shocked really when
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all this came to light but yeah it's quite sad really but i hope we can change what do you think the
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message is that they're sending to you the nhs as women uh what's the message that you feel as if
00:27:01.840
you're receiving put up and put up yeah yeah the minority is more important than you know 51% of
00:27:14.600
the population really um we don't matter we don't matter yeah powerful i think it's powerful saying
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that because again that's that's exactly the way i would describe it you're not worthy not only do you
00:27:28.220
not matter worthy that's it of engaging privately you're not worthy of of in our case being able
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to compete fairly you don't get to call yourself a champion no you exist fed to validate the male's
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feelings yes it's a terrible sending to young girls to women as girls i mean growing up at least i know i
00:27:50.880
was taught uh to not put myself at risk in situations like this um but that's exactly what
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the nhs is doing to you guys and again to to countless other uh women in your same position
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you guys have said many times that uh you're going to fight i guess my question for you is
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and kind of final question here is why because we have to yeah um yeah have to there was the
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on the yeah on the news this morning it was saying that um violence against women has gone up by 40%
00:28:26.160
in the uk in the last five years i mean those statistics are really really scary um and we
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need to do things to make ourselves safe and that's why we're fighting and to to be at work and not feel
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safe it's shocking and in a hospital i mean we should feel safe especially being one at work the employer
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has a responsibility to keep you safe and they're just not doing that yeah and it's got to stop and
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yeah we'll just keep going yeah and i think women have fought so long for their rights as well and it's
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just been ripped from us not even slowly this is like ripped from us and it's it's absolutely
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unbelievable and i've got a daughter and i do not want this for my daughter she is worth more than
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that she's worth more than a man being allowed to walk in and change in front of her she's worth more
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than that so yes i am willing to fight to the bitter end for this i mean we we watched a video
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that um that you'd recorded um talking about your experience and kind of that you were like why has
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nobody said anything why has nobody put a stop to this this is so obviously wrong yeah
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um and it's kind of like because you just we didn't realize quite how difficult it was to
00:29:47.880
actually do that we didn't realize that we were going to be made to feel like such horrible
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transphobic people that we were going to be you know treated the way that we've been treated we
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honestly we we weren't expecting that um and to know that that's how so many other women have been
00:30:07.660
made to feel we kind of um we want them to know that you know you're not wrong you're not wrong to
00:30:17.680
feel uncomfortable taking your clothes off in front of a man who's pretending to be a woman
00:30:23.060
totally it is not you who needs to be re-educated it is not you who needs to go to training or to
00:30:29.500
therapy to learn how to cope with seeing male genitalia um no but again that's what you guys
00:30:35.860
and women across the world are being told uh so i again i am inspired by you all um and the stand that
00:30:45.460
you have taken and how that you have done it with a a sense of grace um as well as entirely unapologetic
00:30:53.600
uh which is again a a lost art and being true to yourself and standing up for what is right and
00:31:00.400
standing up for what is fair and just and moral uh but you guys have done it so so beautifully um and
00:31:06.300
so i appreciate you we will be following along uh and amplifying all of the updates that you guys have
00:31:13.160
on on your case your suit anything that we can do um we certainly will because again this is
00:31:19.260
is important for you guys personally for your daughters but it sets the precedent for the rest
00:31:24.840
of us the rest of the world and so thank you guys for sharing and for coming on you're welcome
00:31:30.420
i hope that you are feeling as inspired and encouraged by these nurses uh as i am uh we will
00:31:40.480
be watching for updates hopefully good updates in the near future uh again thank you guys for tuning
00:31:46.920
in again check us out at outkick.com like subscribe be sure to leave us a review anywhere where you get
00:31:53.800
your podcasts so the message that we are spreading can be sent out far and wide and we will see you all