Goldie Ghamari - Former Ottawa Councillor & Transit Chair MPP Stephen Blais for Ottawa LRT talks about Transit. 🍿🍿🍿

00:00:01.000 Further debate. I recognize a member from Orleans.

00:00:07.260 Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

00:00:11.420 Few things in life are as frustrating as sitting in traffic.

00:00:16.060 I think we can all agree on that.

00:00:18.800 But some of those things that are are sitting on a crowded bus or standing on a crowded bus or standing on a crowded subway.

00:00:28.360 Sometimes just missing your connection will be that little extra amount of time that makes you late for work and throws the rest of your day into chaos.

00:00:37.560 So it's quite clear, Mr. Speaker, that building new transit across the GTHA will certainly help address some of these challenges.

00:00:46.700 It's why, Mr. Speaker, and in fact, I was reminded the other day that no government in the history of Ontario invested more in transit and transportation than the previous Liberal government,

00:00:56.420 despite what we've heard from some this afternoon but that doesn't mean that this bill or the

00:01:02.660 process by which the government is moving forward with it and with these projects is without

00:01:08.260 criticism at committee there was virtual unanimity that the investment in improving

00:01:15.780 public transit in toronto and the gtha was welcome and would benefit ontario residents

00:01:21.060 That being said, residents were also clear that they have not felt that their legitimate

00:01:30.620 concerns are being heard by this government.

00:01:36.900 After seeing every single amendment proposed for this bill rejected outright, I can see

00:01:44.100 their point.

00:01:48.120 We are committed to building public transit in the GTHA and across the province, but there

00:01:53.220 are improvements to be made to how the government and Metrolinx is managing their relationship

00:01:59.380 with the local communities.

00:02:02.400 We heard consistently from members of the public that they have not felt that their

00:02:08.080 voices are being heard.

00:02:11.220 We heard time and again that the consultation process, if you can call it that, has been

00:02:18.020 lacking. The testimony was very clear. The community supports getting on with public transit,

00:02:27.460 but they need to be part of the process.

00:02:32.180 We proposed amendments to the bill that would help lead the government in this direction.

00:02:39.060 We proposed an amendment to require the government and Metrolinx

00:02:42.820 to work with the community in a collaborative way.

00:02:48.100 Our amendment would have ensured proper public consultation in the design phase

00:02:53.860 to provide clarity to residents about where exactly these lines are going

00:02:59.300 and the impacts that they might expect to feel within their community.

00:03:05.780 Our amendment would have required that the government and Metrolinks continue that engagement

00:03:12.180 throughout the entirety of the construction process.

00:03:15.620 In her remarks earlier today, Mr. Speaker,

00:03:18.480 the Minister recognized that construction would have a significant impact on communities.

00:03:24.820 And this is why we felt it was important for the government and Metrolinx

00:03:27.840 to continue engaging with communities throughout the duration of this generational plan,

00:03:33.740 as someone has called it.

00:03:36.980 To ensure that legitimate concerns about the impact to daily life of construction

00:03:42.320 can be heard and can be addressed and of course mr speaker consultation does not need to be

00:03:50.320 codified in legislation but we heard time and again that that consultation wasn't happening

00:04:00.240 and when given the opportunity to ensure that the government was held to a legislated standard

00:04:06.880 The government for the people didn't feel they should be required to talk or meet the people.

00:04:14.960 I've never understood this hesitation to public consultation, Mr. Speaker.

00:04:20.320 Good management practice and, frankly, good politics

00:04:25.120 dictates that speaking to those you represent is always a good idea.

00:04:30.240 It's a benefit, not a hindrance.

00:04:39.000 Our amendments would have required that the government provide an annual preview of what

00:04:42.920 to expect in construction, to highlight the milestones that are expected to be achieved

00:04:48.900 and to provide proper notification to affected residents, businesses, municipalities, etc.

00:04:55.900 And again, Mr. Speaker, the government members did not support these amendments.

00:05:01.340 Apparently, providing a plan of activity, giving us insight as to what would come ahead

00:05:08.940 for the year, and to notify people of that activity was too onerous.

00:05:16.340 It would take too much time.

00:05:19.260 Writing down your plan and communicating it with those that it affects would somehow slow

00:05:24.200 down this multi-generational multi-billion dollar mega project. That's

00:05:31.220 actually what we heard from the government. I don't know about everyone

00:05:37.960 else in this chamber, but I've always found that planning out my

00:05:43.220 activity has actually helped me stay on schedule. That those days where

00:05:49.040 everything is going wrong, that you're when you're running behind, where nothing

00:05:53.540 seems to be working properly are the days that are not well planned out. Good planning

00:06:00.720 in construction speeds up construction. It's that simple. It's a lesson learned over and

00:06:05.920 over and over again. It's not a lesson the government wanted to be included in legislation.

00:06:14.980 Moreover, the publication of this plan provides incentive to the contractors that will eventually

00:06:21.520 be hired to stay on schedule. I've lived through the Ottawa experience of projects

00:06:27.680 that are behind schedule, and the public pressure brought to bear because that

00:06:33.680 schedule is public is enormous and certainly incentivizes activity and

00:06:43.120 action. But the government didn't believe, and I presume doesn't believe, that this

00:06:51.460 transparency and potential accountability into their project was in their best interest.

00:07:01.620 Finally, Mr. Speaker, we heard from residents

00:07:05.940 that in the few occasions they were allowed or provided to provide their feedback,

00:07:12.580 they felt their voices were being ignored. We heard from members today they would attend a

00:07:18.500 meeting they would ask questions they would provide information seek answers

00:07:27.540 and it would be blank faces on the other side emails that went unresponded phone calls that

00:07:35.060 were never returned metrolinks or the government wasn't interested in hearing their feedback

00:07:41.380 and their complaints they were checking a box to say that they've done it and so we proposed

00:07:50.100 an amendment that would require the government to reply to residents about their concerns

00:07:57.300 simply put mr speaker the amendment would require that metrolinks acknowledge the concern

00:08:04.420 and provide an answer and to publish those concerns and those answers on a regular basis

00:08:11.380 so that everyone is aware and everyone could feel confident in the response from their government.

00:08:21.060 In fairness, Mr. Speaker, I don't think this is a very onerous task.

00:08:24.400 In fact, I believe that responding to residents is something we do every day.

00:08:30.960 The government chose not to support these measures that would improve consultation,

00:08:35.620 require proper planning and would lead to residents to feel that they were part of the process.

00:08:46.420 Now, none of this needs to necessarily be legislated.

00:08:49.680 The Minister can require this action to take place.

00:08:53.040 Good management, if it exists at Metrolinks, can insist that these actions be taken,

00:08:58.500 and all of this can be written into project agreements.

00:09:01.580 And so there is still hope, Mr. Speaker, that as we move forward with these projects, the government can choose to listen to the people.

00:09:12.540 The government can choose to get feedback and make changes.

00:09:17.040 The government can choose, make that choice, and I hope they do so, Mr. Speaker.

00:09:22.620 Thank you very much.

00:09:24.340 Thank you very much.

00:09:25.880 Questions?

00:09:26.580 I recognize the member from Carleton for questions.

00:09:30.200 Thank you.

00:09:30.620 Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I listened intently to the member from Orleans' comments. It was

00:09:38.540 a little bit confusing, Mr. Speaker. I just want to put it in perspective. I'd like to congratulate

00:09:43.340 the member for his election. However, when he spoke about his experience and having lived through

00:09:50.300 the Ottawa experience of projects that were on time and on schedule and on budget, it's a little

00:09:56.060 bit shocking to me because the member used to be the chair of the Ottawa Transit Commission,

00:10:00.620 who was responsible for the Ottawa LRT project. I'd like to maybe get some clarification from

00:10:07.420 the member on which transportation project he's talking about in his Ottawa experience that was

00:10:13.500 on time and on schedule and on budget. Thank you.

00:10:16.940 Thank you very much. Back to the member from Orleans for your response.

00:10:20.620 Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I think if you were to check answered,

00:10:23.740 those words were not spoken by me i certainly did say that i've lived through the ottawa experience

00:10:29.420 and that experience was about the accountability measures that having public information in a

00:10:35.100 contract provides publishing milestones that you want to achieve in a year provides that

00:10:40.940 accountability to residents provides that accountability to the media so that government

00:10:46.460 and the contract or the eventual winner of a competitive process can be held to account to

00:10:54.860 what they're saying they're going to do. The government chose not to build those accountability

00:10:59.180 measures into the legislation. It's not too late. They can put that type of accountability

00:11:04.380 into the project agreement. The minister can direct Metrolinks to include it. I hope that

00:11:09.820 the minister chooses to include accountability measures in any procurement process.

00:11:14.540 Very much. Further questions? I recognize the member from Sudbury.

00:11:21.260 Thank you, Speaker. I want to also thank the member for Arlene for his comments,

00:11:25.980 and also congratulations on your recent election. As a new MPP myself, I have a question I asked

00:11:32.620 the government. I didn't really get an answer to it, so I'm going to ask it to you. My understanding

00:11:36.460 is that prior to the election, there were plans in place for a subway project in Toronto.

00:11:40.700 After the election, the government ripped those up, and so my background with construction

00:11:46.220 would be their environmental assessments, engineering assessments, safety risk assessments,

00:11:50.180 all kinds of time, energy, and resources poured into that.

00:11:53.740 Does it make any sense to you that the government would say it's quicker and more cost-effective

00:11:58.400 to throw away the plans we have and start from scratch, just with your background with

00:12:02.020 transportation as well?

00:12:03.180 All right.

00:12:05.180 Back to the member from Orleans for a response.

00:12:07.260 I appreciate that question very well, and in fact, we experienced the same thing in

00:12:10.580 in ottawa mr speaker uh conservative mayor backed by conservative cabinet ministers ripped up and

00:12:15.300 throughout the first ottawa lrt project and the city of ottawa lost 100 million dollars in real

00:12:21.300 cash lost a decade of inaction and lost an infrastructure round basically leading to four

00:12:29.860 500 million dollars not invested in the nation's capital so no i don't believe it's smart to rip up

00:12:36.500 construction projects or projects that are have already seen approval because you do lose a decade

00:12:41.700 that being said we cannot continue this process of continually ripping things up and starting over

00:12:46.980 otherwise nothing will ever get done thank you further questions the member from carlton thank

00:12:53.780 you mr speaker i just wanted to comment i actually listened very intently to the member from orleans

00:13:00.660 statements. I invite him to check the Hansard record because he literally said, and I quote,

00:13:05.620 I've lived through the Ottawa experience of projects that were on schedule. I would once

00:13:11.540 again ask the member to explain and maybe give some examples of which Ottawa projects he worked

00:13:17.860 on as Transit Commissioner that were on schedule. Thank you.

00:13:21.860 Back to the member from Orleans for your response.

00:13:24.660 Thank you very much. I don't want to quibble with the member, but I was speaking very specifically

00:13:33.300 to accountability measures within the contract and the pressure that publicizing those milestones

00:13:39.540 and standards to be achieved has on the contractor and on the government to maintain schedule.

00:13:46.260 But in terms of projects that have been on schedule, OC Transpo has had many bus projects, transit projects, park-and-ride projects that have been on schedule, and I would encourage the local member to communicate with her city councillors in Ottawa if she has any questions about those.

00:14:07.820 Thank you. Questions? We're going to hear from the member from Windsor Tecumseh.

00:14:12.540 Thank you, Speaker. I apologize to the member from Orleans. My back is to him as I'm posing a question to him. When I heard you speak about the government and the problems you were having with the government dealing with the LRT, was that the Liberal government of Ms. Wynn and Mr. McGinty that you were dealing with?

00:14:36.920 because transportation takes a long time to plan and to build.

00:14:40.820 And the other thing, if you could clarify for me,

00:14:44.200 I think when I was in Ottawa the last time I was reading a paper

00:14:46.900 and it talked about in the wintertime,

00:14:50.500 the LRT is having trouble through the snow

00:14:53.720 or going up a slight grade in the roadbed,

00:14:57.100 and why wasn't that picked up at some point?

00:15:00.560 Can the member from Orleans for your response?

00:15:03.240 Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you for the question.

00:15:06.360 The challenge with the first iteration of the Ottawa light rail plan was with a Conservative mayor who was elected in 2006

00:15:12.520 and ripped up, in fact, the Liberal plan to build LRT and was backed by a Federal Conservative cabinet minister.

00:15:20.880 This led to lawsuits and the City of Ottawa losing $100 million in real cash and a decade of making progress on public transit.

00:15:30.480 Vis-a-vis the challenges that Ottawa LRT has faced, those are not secret, they're well-publicized.

00:15:37.420 There have been challenges throughout the winter, and in fact, the award-winning contract

00:15:43.800 the City of Ottawa signed with the consortium has protected taxpayers in every way from

00:15:49.540 those eventualities.

00:15:51.160 The consortium that was responsible for building the project was not paid for up to a year,

00:15:57.140 That's as a result of the innovative procurement process that the City of Ottawa went through.

00:16:02.480 Thank you very much. Further questions? The member from Carlton.

00:16:07.280 Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think the record will speak for itself. However, I'd like to move on now because if the member was in fact talking about transparency and accountability, then my question to the member is,

00:16:18.220 Why was the details of phase two bidding process not revealed, and why did the city not act in a transparent or accountable manner, especially with the member being chair of the Transit Commission, to inform the city of Ottawa and its citizens that the bid did not meet the technical requirements and should have actually been disqualified, and yet it was still approved anyway?

00:16:41.320 Thank you.

00:16:42.280 You're back to the member from Orleans for your response.

00:16:45.680 Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The award-winning contract in P3 that the City of Ottawa went through for Stage 2 of LRT, a project fully endorsed by the government, and when the Premier came to Ottawa to announce the government's funding for this project, espoused the virtues of the Trillium line and the Confederation line and the efforts the City has gone

00:17:15.160 to move LRT forward in our city.

00:17:19.660 In fact, the details of the Stage 2 contract

00:17:22.800 redacted for commercially sensitive information

00:17:25.160 are publicly available.

00:17:27.960 Thank you very much.

00:17:29.880 Questions?

00:17:31.100 The member from Carleton.

00:17:33.080 Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

00:17:34.560 Mr. Speaker, I think the record will speak for itself.

00:17:36.860 However, I'd like to move on now

00:17:38.200 because if the member was in fact talking about

00:17:40.260 transparency and accountability,

00:17:42.520 then my question to the member is

00:17:44.000 Why was the details of phase two bidding process not revealed, and why did the city not act in a transparent or accountable manner, especially with the member being chair of the Transit Commission, to inform the city of Ottawa and its citizens that the bid did not meet the technical requirements and should have actually been disqualified, and yet it was still approved anyway?

00:18:07.080 Thank you.

00:18:08.080 Back to the member from Orleans for your response.

00:18:11.480 Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The award-winning contract in P3 that the City of Ottawa went through for Stage 2 of LRT, a project fully endorsed by the government, and when the Premier came to Ottawa to announce the government's funding for this project, espoused the virtues of the Trillium line and the Confederation line and the efforts the City has gone.

00:18:41.480 move LRT forward in our city and in fact the details of the stage 2 contract

00:18:48.560 redacted for commercially sensitive information are publicly available very

00:18:54.320 much further questions the member from Kingston and the islands thank you

00:19:00.860 speaker and once again listening to the debate between the independent liberal

00:19:04.400 member and the government speakers I'm struck by one of the key different one

00:19:09.320 my favorite sayings, Liberal-Tories, same old story, but also on the distinction of support

00:19:14.920 for P3s, because it's something that I do associate with Liberal governments very, very 1.00

00:19:19.740 much. And I just want to read from an article here. It says, while the notion of a P3 is 0.99

00:19:24.500 intended to encourage collaborative behavior within project consortium, in between public

00:19:28.940 and private sectors, in practice, the rigid structure of a typical infrastructure model

00:19:33.700 can inhibit free communication collaboration.

00:19:36.960 In fact, it stifles innovation.

00:19:39.440 So my question to the member is, does he still stand behind the P3 model

00:19:43.220 and would he ever consider using it moving forward

00:19:46.860 when we know it costs more to the taxpayers?

00:19:50.900 Thank you very much.

00:19:52.120 To the member from Orleans for your response.

00:19:55.060 Mr. Speaker, thank you for the question. 1.00

00:19:56.660 P3s have demonstrated that they can be very effective in some circumstances 1.00

00:20:00.140 and perhaps not so effective in others.

00:20:02.860 There is not one rigid black or white answer to the P3 question.

00:20:07.740 Every project needs to be evaluated on its merits and the financial model and the procurement model chosen to finance it based on those merits.

00:20:17.560 Thank you.

00:20:18.820 Further questions?

00:20:20.080 The member from Carlton.

00:20:22.220 Mr. Speaker, I was also there at the announcement of the Premier back in October 2018.

00:20:27.360 That was actually well before the details of the problems with the bid were revealed.

00:20:34.280 So my question to the member is, why did the City of Ottawa and you as Chair of the Transit Commission approve a technical bid that did not meet the specifications?

00:20:44.780 Thank you.

00:20:45.560 Back to the member from Orleans.

00:20:50.180 The City of Ottawa's Auditor General has reviewed the procurement process for Stage 2 trillion lime and found no irregularities.

00:20:56.900 thank you thank you very much

Goldie Ghamari - June 19, 2020

Former Ottawa Councillor & Transit Chair MPP Stephen Blais for Ottawa LRT talks about Transit. 🍿🍿🍿

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