Greg Wycliffe - Exploring #HateGate & #1MillionMarch4Children with Caryma Sa’d ｜ Controlled Op 28

00:00:00.000 We now have the receipts that Justin Trudeau's government used lies and misinformation to help

00:00:05.680 justify the use of the Emergencies Act during the trucker convoy. The explosive expose Hategate

00:00:12.060 was released last week. One of the investigative journalists who authored this expose, Karima Saad,

00:00:18.660 joins me tonight. Karima has also covered other protest movements in Canada, so we will be

00:00:23.720 definitely covering the One Million March for Children protest against gender ideology in

00:00:28.500 schools and how the Canadian anti-hate network may be connected to that as well. The conversation

00:00:34.620 starts now. I promise you, I will not let you down. The trucks parked outside illegally should

00:00:41.620 move. Canada's conservatives will meet our Paris climate commitment. Enough with the wrong

00:00:48.100 form, Mr. Speaker. I take that back. To champion our conservative principles. We are the party of

00:00:53.920 law and order. To call in the auditors. We haven't yet decided whether we're going to call for the

00:00:58.160 government to impose a mandatory test or vaccination. And we will win the next election.

00:01:17.880 Canada must not ignore the reality of climate change.

00:01:21.560 why weren't canadians vaccinated in january and february like everyone else

00:01:31.420 welcome everybody to controlled opposition episode number 28

00:01:44.960 Tonight is a very special episode. We have a lawyer from Toronto, someone who has frequented many protests in Canada, and she is now an investigative journalist and author of Hashtag Hategate, the one and only Karima Saad. How are you this evening?

00:02:03.540 I'm well. Thank you for having me.

00:02:04.740 Yes, of course. We're obviously going to talk about the Canadian Anti-Hate Network, how that connects to HateGate, how that connects to the 1 million March for Children that we've seen this week, a lot going on in the country.

00:02:18.380 But to start, let's start on some common ground because we are both a little bit provocateurs. We're people who criticize our own side. If I'm not mistaken, you are more left-leaning, correct? Is that how you'd characterize yourself if we had to use that paradigm?

00:02:34.740 It's how people, well, actually, it's a fair characterization, I suppose.

00:02:40.580 I think it's kind of a fake binary, but for the purposes of this conversation, sure.

00:02:47.880 Generically, yeah.

00:02:49.180 I mean, it is sort of a fake binary, but what we're about to talk about are kind of make it real, in a sense.

00:02:57.220 Because, you know, starting controlled opposition and criticizing the Conservative Party and Pierre Palliev, a lot of people are upset at me.

00:03:05.200 They're like, Greg, you know, we got to get Trudeau out.

00:03:07.720 Don't don't criticize Pierre Palliev.

00:03:09.860 And it's been pretty bad.

00:03:11.460 But I imagine it might be worse for you because you're someone who has criticized people on your side or you've kind of given sympathy to Jeremy McKenzie.

00:03:20.940 Oh, my goodness.

00:03:22.420 What has that experience been like for you?

00:03:24.380 And please be very, you know, be very upfront about it because I can imagine it's been like abuse might be a term that might potentially come up.

00:03:35.380 I don't know.

00:03:36.880 Yeah, no, it has been a journey.

00:03:39.560 And in fact, it kind of started not with me sympathizing or anything along those lines, but I simply tried to have a comedy show featuring Chris Skye.

00:03:54.640 And that was like a turning point. Because up to then, I had been covering rallies. I think that, you know, I was there as an observer, I had some of my own commentary to share. And it was widely supported by people on the left, and the far left as well.

00:04:20.240 And when I tried to interview Chris Guy, suddenly that was a bridge too far.

00:04:29.120 And it's been very challenging ever since because I get portrayed falsely as a white supremacist, as a Nazi, as, you know, all manner of smears that just don't apply.

00:04:46.460 And it's difficult confronting groupthink on either end of the spectrum, but particularly on the left, there is almost a need to be in perfect lockstep with one another at every given moment.

00:05:04.340 And the second that you are pushing back against or questioning or challenging a narrative, you know, that can result in being at the center of like a total shitstorm.

00:05:22.560 And so that's been my experience.

00:05:24.920 And yeah, abuse, it's not an unfair term to use.

00:05:32.260 At one point, I had to move because of harassment. It's been online, it's been in person, it's been through frivolous complaints to the law society against me, to a former employer, to the city, to Elections Ontario, any sort of entity perceived to have authority over me has received complaints, as far as I can tell.

00:06:00.960 um and they're baseless so yeah it it is a journey um and kind of you know

00:06:09.460 there's value in being able to critique and for people to receive critique if it's delivered in

00:06:18.600 good faith and that's what i try to do and i haven't had that same courtesy in return

00:06:24.140 yeah yeah you touched on a lot of things that are kind of a theme uh tonight i think first

00:06:30.660 of all ding chris sky he was featured on anti-hate and the characterization that anti-hate makes of

00:06:38.080 people um is very reflective i would argue of a lot of how the the left-wing operates which is

00:06:45.600 it's not like a um you got that a little bit wrong or i kind of disagree with you a bit it's 0.99

00:06:51.960 you are hitler like you are literally the worst you are you are dancing with the devil like you 1.00

00:06:57.960 know and then you get you actually get tattled on and reported to you know basically institutions 0.95

00:07:04.260 as you were listing like people you know they try to in a way like you know this might sound

00:07:09.520 like rhetoric but they kind of try to ruin your life like they kind of try to like isolate you

00:07:14.240 and cut you off and just give you like such horrible consequences for you didn't really

00:07:19.000 even have the wrong opinion unless your opinion was hey i want to have a conversation with this 0.97

00:07:24.820 individual about covid going on which really sucks by the way that that event got canceled

00:07:29.920 with chris sky because that would have been really great content i would have roasted the 0.53

00:07:33.540 shit out of him so yeah everyone missed out big time really for sure i mean chris sky is pretty

00:07:40.700 good on his feet i don't know he's not but that's okay we're not here to talk about chris guy i know 0.98

00:07:45.680 that you supported his mayoral candidacy i that is you know in a democracy absolutely you're right

00:07:53.440 to be wrong i'm okay with that but um no are you happy with olivia chow right now we don't have to

00:08:00.720 get into that but no uh to your point though hyperbole in political discourse um it

00:08:11.360 among other things it degrades the meaning of words and i think that that is such a problem

00:08:20.240 As a lawyer, we communicate with words. And in fact, words have serious meanings and implication. A comma in the wrong place can entirely change the significance of a sentence, right?

00:08:34.580 So when words like Nazi or comparisons to Hitler or what have you are thrown around so easily, it makes it so we are less able to communicate with one another.

00:08:52.660 yeah less able to communicate one another less less incentivized to actually share what's on our

00:09:00.380 mind uh at risk of being vilified or being ostracized and and i think another big one

00:09:07.280 especially in the right wing is um associate even associating even even asking the wrong

00:09:12.960 question or even being seen with the wrong people or liking the wrong tweet for for pete's sake it's

00:09:18.820 quite intense. But I think you're right. Where is the discourse these days? Where's the debate

00:09:26.580 these days? Something that I bring up a lot is, or I haven't brought up in a while, in the 2021

00:09:31.620 election, there was not even a debate on vaccine mandates, which at the time, Aaron O'Toole ran

00:09:41.200 the conservative party. But to me, that seems like a real sort of failure of what everyone was

00:09:48.760 going through at the time i'm unvaccinated so maybe i'm biased but as we saw the trucker convoy

00:09:54.280 you know that kind of showed a sort of um uh well that was that was hey there wasn't a debate about

00:10:02.720 this topic and now there's a whole bunch of trucks from across the country uh in ottawa i feel like

00:10:07.320 those kind of those two things are kind of connected uh in my opinion anyway i'm not sure

00:10:11.840 if you agree but it yeah just i i would echo that it's harder to talk to one another you mentioned

00:10:20.280 the consequences of feeling that you know you're less incentivized to speak your mind that stifles

00:10:28.000 progressive thought because the way that we evolve as a society is by exchanging ideas improving upon

00:10:35.400 each other's ideas kind of learning from each other and where that can't happen because we're

00:10:43.080 afraid of wrong think essentially that it uh it's regressive it's the opposite of what the left

00:10:53.960 should stand for and it's not beneficial to anyone so whoever is engaging in that behavior

00:11:00.360 like it cut it out yeah um so we're gonna get into hate gate and a lot of my audience probably

00:11:09.420 knows the the gist of hate gate but um i kind of want to hear your experience of kind of slowly

00:11:15.780 uh seeing how deep this uh this rabbit hole goes and you know i summarize hate gate as something as

00:11:23.380 um kind of well what i thought i knew already which was i feel like you know diagonal is a

00:11:29.920 meme country and this regime uh used these memes and veterans who own guns um they whipped up a

00:11:38.580 bunch of misinformation and they used that to justify the use of the emergencies act that was

00:11:42.620 that was kind of my perception of it um but you're but you know i know that you need to be very

00:11:48.200 diplomatic in that explanation but um like you also include like how jeremy works into this as

00:11:54.140 well because like did you think that jeremy was this legit boogeyman at the time he has all these

00:11:58.800 firearms charges and uh you know you're kind of learning about what what actually has happened to

00:12:04.840 him but tell me what your experience was like of kind of i don't know if you've lost faith in these

00:12:09.800 institutions i i sure have but uh you know how has your perspective changed on this journey

00:12:15.780 so it uh i'll start kind of with hate gate um elisa hadigan and i

00:12:23.660 were given access to freedom of information documents over a thousand pages primarily

00:12:31.260 emails and reports involving the RCMP and from that we were able to discern some patterns and

00:12:42.040 some concerns about the ways that they investigated and information shared about

00:12:51.600 Diagalon and Jeremy McKenzie. And the conclusion that we drew from it, you know, the Emergencies

00:13:00.780 Act, the invocation of that, there were a lot of variables, a lot of moving parts. But if we think

00:13:07.080 back to the frenzy of February 2022, I think Diagalon was a significant part of that. We had

00:13:17.520 MPs and senators speaking about this existential threat to Canada, this militia that wants to 0.99

00:13:28.660 establish a white ethnostate, you know, this weapons cache where there's connections to this

00:13:37.120 group. And so it was all very alarming. And I think that people consuming that information

00:13:45.120 were right to be concerned if they took it at face value um but the problem was and this is

00:13:52.620 what elisa and i kind of concluded in reviewing these freedom of information documents there was

00:13:59.280 a feedback loop between law enforcement media and government officials where they were all

00:14:08.500 repeating back to one another the same information copy pasted almost as though they expected each

00:14:15.860 other to do the heavy lifting of investigation and you know they were just reporting back

00:14:23.900 and a lot of this misinformation or misleading information came from one source that being the

00:14:32.880 canadian anti-hate network so we have anti-hate at kind of the nexus of this

00:14:40.660 broken telephone game between rcmp cabinet ministers and media and you know to answer

00:14:52.300 your question how how did i initially or what was my connection to jeremy um we didn't like

00:15:00.080 we first connected in April of 2022. And at the time, the only information I had to go on was

00:15:09.460 what was being said in the media. And so I was fairly apprehensive about that conversation. I

00:15:17.120 didn't know fully what I was walking into. But the reason for speaking is I had put out a thread

00:15:23.980 describing my experiences with the Canadian Anti-Hate Network

00:15:28.580 and an open invite to anyone else

00:15:32.140 who had similar or different types of experiences

00:15:37.180 so we could connect and better understand what was happening.

00:15:42.700 And Jeremy is someone who responded to that.

00:15:45.780 I'm not sure he actually expected me to take him up on the offer to speak,

00:15:50.340 but we did, and I listened.

00:15:52.880 And that was kind of the end of it. We went our separate ways at that point. But I kept an eye on him on the situation from afar, just watching how media was reporting how, you know, this narrative was constructed around him, a variety of legal problems.

00:16:15.400 And sort of that's the origin story there. And, you know, the when he got arrested and hauled from Halifax or Nova Scotia to Saskatchewan, something prompted me to go watch the bail hearing.

00:16:37.180 And I'm very glad that I did, because it provided me even more insight into the situation. And, you know, from there, I was able to, my perspective at that point, had shifted from this is someone I need to be afraid of, to this is someone who is receiving a lot of heat from the state.

00:17:04.000 and i want to better understand why and how and you know what's going on there's you know there's

00:17:11.600 publication ban attached to the mail hearing so i can't be specific about what prompted um

00:17:18.640 this light bulb but from there i've taken a real interest in watching these legal proceedings

00:17:26.720 unfold and i thank you for that i thank you for that that uh you know the the whether it was your

00:17:35.200 principles or your values or just your sort of uh intuition to be like maybe this guy isn't a

00:17:41.940 boogeyman maybe there's more to the story um but i was thinking as you were saying as you were kind

00:17:46.480 of sharing that you've covered this story you've covered hate gate in my opinion i know you like

00:17:54.220 to be diplomatic and not too opinionated, Karima, but in my opinion, this seems like a really big

00:17:59.740 deal in terms of the failure of the news media, failure of major institutions, and to an extent,

00:18:06.380 the RCMP and police. Why do you think no major news outlets have picked this up?

00:18:13.420 I think the simplest and most likely explanation is that, well, there's two. One is there's

00:18:24.180 already been a lot of investment into a particular narrative and that narrative includes uh the

00:18:34.360 canadian anti-hate network as an expert as a trusted source and to walk that back is a big move

00:18:41.980 right and so i think that that's part of it and there's also a degree of whether it is embarrassment

00:18:51.620 or you know egg on your face or what have you I think that that's sort of another part of the

00:19:01.360 equation and there's actually a whole chapter in Hategate that's dedicated to cowardice and how

00:19:09.920 in Canadian society it's a real problem it's a real problem because we enjoy being comfortable

00:19:18.260 that makes us complacent and sticking one's neck out, given the precariousness of the media

00:19:28.860 industry, for example, and how nepotistic it can be, the cronyism that exists, there's not a lot of

00:19:38.060 push for uncomfortable truths. But fundamentally, that's what journalism is. Journalism is

00:19:44.860 expressing uncomfortable truths and that's what Elisa and I are trying to do here

00:19:50.320 yes absolutely uh there is a link to hate gate down below uh for those who have not yet read it

00:19:57.100 um but uh yeah I did want to uh highlight as well uh a particular part of the story which I

00:20:05.820 commemorate you for which is you I think you really tell a part of Jeremy's story very very

00:20:11.380 well. One in which I don't think I've ever read

00:20:13.420 before. Specifically,

00:20:15.100 you talk about his

00:20:16.700 podcast right here.

00:20:19.200 There is a method to the madness.

00:20:21.180 An individual episode is

00:20:23.100 meant to be taken in in its entirety.

00:20:25.080 Each performance consists of roughly three

00:20:27.100 parts and is meant to end on a positive note.

00:20:29.340 Despite tackling heated or bleak

00:20:31.020 subjects in a high-intensity stream

00:20:32.800 of consciousness format, Jeremy strives

00:20:35.140 to portray hopeful messaging. He is

00:20:37.040 keenly aware of high suicide rates

00:20:39.140 among veterans and wants

00:20:41.180 his viewers to leave entertained and reassured the softness of this approach is sometimes

00:20:45.700 camouflaged by the bluntness of military military culture it gives me chills just reading it

00:20:52.080 because it's uh that is something that um what's the word context that's the context that is

00:21:01.680 grossly missing from all the mischaracterizations uh of jeremy and the little quotes that are taken

00:21:07.240 out of context and i think it's important to point out though that the only reason that you've had to

00:21:13.880 you know make this very eloquent description of the context of what uh jeremy does is after he's

00:21:20.380 been dragged after jail after he's been kind of characterized as a boogeyman like all all after

00:21:24.960 fact after the fact because really no one would have needed to make that description of what he

00:21:29.720 does what he does just would have been but the only reason that you had to kind of clarify all

00:21:36.140 that is because he's been turned into this uh like quite frankly awful boogeyman i even have a story

00:21:42.180 of uh a friend of a friend of my parents who who like asked oh have you heard of diagalon

00:21:48.620 and they were like i'm pretty sure that's a joke and they're like no yeah that's what they all say

00:21:54.820 that's what they all say and it's like something i've noticed in politics is the information or

00:22:02.140 the message whether it's true or not whatever message is sent out by the news media it has a

00:22:08.560 snowball effect it gets it gets exaggerated through gossip and all that type of thing

00:22:12.500 and a good example maybe would be um well i kind of like to use the ppc as an example because they

00:22:19.760 say oh they have like anti-immigration views and then that manifests and i know this because i ran 0.87

00:22:24.000 for the ppc in 2019 that manifests as you're a nazi like you are the worst person oh my god like 0.96

00:22:29.980 you you criticized immigration you are you are the worst boss you're hitler um so it is it is quite 0.97

00:22:35.800 alarming but um i don't know if you want to say anything yeah no it uh i've talked about these 0.78

00:22:46.140 concepts before but there's primacy bias and confirmation bias and the two feed into each

00:22:51.840 other. And so the first time you hear about something that is going to subconsciously

00:23:00.680 create a framing and new information that you subsequently take in, you try to make it match

00:23:07.740 that framing because we don't like cognitive dissonance, right? We like things to make sense.

00:23:14.260 And so if the first thing someone heard about Jeremy McKenzie, which it likely was, came from a news source portraying him in a certain way, then that makes it a lot easier to take in snippets or cherry picked moments and sort of fit it into a narrative.

00:23:38.580 And frankly, Jeremy makes that easy sometimes for them to do.

00:23:44.260 So that's, that's an issue. And to then change your mind about something. That's asking a lot

00:23:53.320 for people, people do not like changing their minds. And if they do, they want to have an

00:23:58.740 opportunity to do it gently and save face. So that's sort of what, you know, what you're up

00:24:06.480 against um as far as public opinion and shifting that um and you know i we make this point in the

00:24:16.220 report but if someone was a fly on the wall in a room where people were talking about risk

00:24:25.160 or dungeons and dragons and you know they like risk the board game yeah risk the board game right

00:24:32.660 Or Settlers of Catan or whatever.

00:24:34.580 Sure.

00:24:34.920 And, you know, they're talking about coups and takeovers and we're going to destroy their crops and like whatever else, you know, I don't play any of those things.

00:24:45.420 But I understand enough from popular culture to know that there's there's it's like a political game.

00:24:51.580 Right.

00:24:52.220 But if you took that at face value, it would be very concerning.

00:24:54.680 And, you know, the elements of military culture, gun culture that makes people uncomfortable if they are unfamiliar with it, because it is perceived as scary.

00:25:11.160 And so it's a lot easier to spin a nefarious tale.

00:25:18.180 And the fact is that, you know, the hate gate affair, it's not about endorsing Jeremy's content or, you know, diagonal on or it's irrelevant.

00:25:32.180 irrelevant it's irrelevant to everything whether he is offensive or distasteful or

00:25:41.700 or what it doesn't matter because the threshold for the rcmp is criminality

00:25:50.180 right and if there is no criminality then what are we doing here why is information

00:25:57.940 being passed up the chain of command to five eyes partners like it doesn't make sense

00:26:05.940 and the reason or explanation for that you know we go back to complacency and cowardice and copy

00:26:14.100 and paste work that it isn't solid um you know so so that's i don't know if that answers the

00:26:23.220 question but that's kind of my my take on why it was necessary to put in that description because

00:26:30.980 we're you know people have a perception that is deeply ingrained as a result of a year of bad press

00:26:41.860 yeah yeah and quickly back to back to this kind of uh this important context that you give of

00:26:48.980 Jeremy's story, I would make the argument that you could make the same sort of context for someone

00:26:57.960 who is an anti-vaxxer or specifically someone who opposed vaccine mandates back during the pandemic

00:27:05.340 because the media really didn't do these people any favors. There's the infamous Toronto Star

00:27:11.340 headline that says, I don't care if these people die or something to that effect, which was very

00:27:17.000 alarming there's also you know political cartoons that are kind of like you know a visualization of

00:27:23.700 flicking away anyone who dares kind of stand up for the unvaccinated and there you could have the 0.99

00:27:30.380 same context of like well these people are concerned about bodily autonomy and they have

00:27:34.720 their like plenty of reasons and i think especially since the convoy with the mandates hopefully

00:27:38.920 going away and staying away that i believe these people have been vindicated but um at the time

00:27:45.400 There really was a lot of pressure upon unvaccinated people or even people who oppose mandates.

00:27:51.820 And speaking of changing minds, Karima, have you changed your mind at all over how you covered some of this stuff back then?

00:28:02.060 Because I can bring up a couple of cartoons of that you've done in the past.

00:28:05.160 i'll bring up uh i'll bring up this one to start which is from i believe 2020 2021 july

00:28:14.120 where you're depicting doug ford ontario is open for business but this is really just the donor

00:28:20.740 saying this like with with the hand here and uh this is the education minister i believe your

00:28:27.760 kids will be fine probably and my interpretation of this is it's these horrible conservatives who

00:28:33.960 are dare daring daring to open up daring to open up the uh the province again as if it's like the

00:28:41.160 worst not the worst i think you that's my interpretation of what the message that is meant

00:28:46.840 um in this cartoon and for me you know i i obviously completely disagree with it back then

00:28:52.940 but i disagree with it now but um you know this kind of like vilification of anyone who would open

00:28:58.620 up um aspects of uh you know to reverse lockdowns um do you still feel that way about like the

00:29:06.860 pandemic and everything that went down or do you stand by that still or kind of what do you what

00:29:11.120 are your politics reflecting on that knowing that how misinformation operates now in the country

00:29:16.440 i think the interpretation i would give to that comic if you pull it back up

00:29:20.400 sure um so i forget when this came out i i guess it's sometime in this is july 22 here i'm pretty

00:29:30.520 sure it's 2021 yeah no i think it would have been 2021 um yeah so two things um one is this notion

00:29:38.660 of donors and lobbyists pulling strings i still hope that i think that that's an accurate

00:29:44.760 reflection of the Ford government. And it's contentious because

00:29:52.400 our whole notion of what is science-based, I think, is hard to parse through due to political

00:30:04.760 interference. So I am not a scientist and I don't purport to be one. However, the point here

00:30:14.160 is donors and lobbyists at no point should be controlling government right um and ontario's

00:30:21.240 open for business like you're probably aware that's our provincial motto right um it's from

00:30:28.840 yours to discover so that's ford and then leachie and the impetus behind this particular comic

00:30:35.680 was an article about the different level of

00:30:42.240 protection and resources that were afforded to private schools versus public schools.

00:30:51.340 So, you know, the comic, that's kind of, I don't know that there's much I would

00:30:56.700 change on that. It wasn't an endorsement of lockdowns. Although, if I recall correctly,

00:31:03.180 at that time, there were concerns about the manner in which Ford was opening up. And that's

00:31:11.100 been consistent throughout, because he's been inconsistent throughout. And there's been

00:31:17.020 criticism, regardless of what move he's making. It just seems that he is unprincipled in his

00:31:23.920 approach. And the minister, the education minister, for his part, I think does a disservice overall

00:31:31.160 um in the way that he treats public schools now having said that lockdowns on public schools like

00:31:38.560 that schools should have been the the priority and focus and that they were more of an afterthought

00:31:48.940 in the way that all of these policies rolled out um so that's my take or analysis on that particular

00:31:55.880 comic okay there's there's a lot more of these you know there's a lot more of these i mean

00:32:03.160 you can do this all day but like that's my that was a product of its time um and i don't know

00:32:09.480 that i disagree i think that the impact of lockdowns as we sort of as we unpack it um and

00:32:20.640 even at the time it didn't make sense right it didn't make sense that you can go into some

00:32:25.040 places, you can't go into others, that you need to wear a mask to go into the restaurant, but then

00:32:31.020 you can take it off when you sit down. But you have to show your little passport in order to do

00:32:36.280 that. Like it, none of that made sense. And I think that, you know, I don't know if there's a

00:32:43.060 government anywhere whose approach I would wholeheartedly endorse. But I find it a lot easier

00:32:51.100 to criticize Ford just because he's absurd in his approach.

00:32:55.320 Well, I mean, compared to Trudeau, though, where he basically called all like unvaccinated 0.95

00:33:03.960 people anti-science and they're all racist, they're all homo, like whatever he said that, 1.00

00:33:09.000 you know, that clip where he's speaking in French, I would say that's... 0.97

00:33:12.620 And in that clip, so that clip obviously gained a lot of traction and people sort of latched

00:33:18.040 onto parts of that even adopting it as a symbol of pride right we are the fringe minority um and

00:33:25.240 you know the original interview was in french um he in his framing was in fairness to him um and

00:33:34.520 i'm not like a trudeau fan but i want to be fair he was talking about a subset of people um not

00:33:43.080 kind of writ large. However, I think that it contributed immensely to division and polarization

00:33:51.600 in the country. And the subsequent doubling down on that sentiment made it worse.

00:34:00.660 Yeah. And I would argue just to push back on what you just said, like, it's easy to make fun of Doug

00:34:05.440 Ford. I think it's easy to make fun of Doug Ford because he is more of a conservative. The media

00:34:10.460 loves to hit like you know rip on the conservatives i think that's a real pattern that exists

00:34:15.160 whereas someone who is like dehumanizing a specific group of unvaccinated people i feel

00:34:20.700 like that's much more alarming uh and disturbing and it really did reach a boiling point uh leading

00:34:26.700 up to to the convoy that i think especially you know left-leaning people it was just total

00:34:33.280 hypocrisy it was it was total insanity you know it's like well we have to stick up for the minority 1.00

00:34:37.600 even if they're a minority no matter what oh unvaccinated people like yeah ban them from 0.98

00:34:41.980 society I don't care if they die like that like that's how insane it was uh right before right

00:34:47.400 before the convoy happened to push against that um but yeah and here's another one because again

00:34:54.520 it's related uh this this is the Andrea Horwath basically said I want to clarify my poorly

00:35:02.360 received comments about mandatory vaccines today is opposite day so eventually she flip-flopped

00:35:08.340 this is the joke about how she flip-flopped at the time but um it's not so much about that whole

00:35:14.980 situation because a lot of what you say here is kind of like you know it's kind of lukewarm it's

00:35:19.600 not necessarily you're kind of just documenting what happened and how she flip-flopped and this

00:35:24.260 is like my bias coming out hardcore then you share a thread from nora loretto and she and you say this

00:35:31.900 is mandatory reading this thread by nora loretto should be mandatory reading for anyone who has

00:35:36.460 an opinion on quote vaccine passports and this thread is very much if we're going to think about

00:35:43.220 vaccine passports then are we going to be able to actually vaccinate everybody like that like 0.99

00:35:48.380 that's pretty well the framing you know if you want to talk about vaccine passports and needs

00:35:52.060 to like are we sure we can actually vaccinate everybody um so it's i would argue that's very

00:35:57.360 very one-sided it's not giving any sort of uh credence to the people who don't want to get

00:36:02.880 vaccinated um i don't fully remember this thread but that's the angle that she was talking about

00:36:10.880 right so any issue there's multiple angles and she's saying it's not our passport's positive

00:36:17.680 or negative but underlying that is there an issue of like equality of distribution etc

00:36:26.640 right she doesn't probably broach on the idea of what if people don't want to be vaccinated i

00:36:34.960 imagine she doesn't since you're reacting to this thread um but the the way of approaching

00:36:42.320 the question i think is is valid because it's not a complete story but it is a consideration

00:36:52.000 in that issue i don't know like i it's you you look at any issue and it can

00:37:02.960 there's dozens and dozens like infinite actually like underlying considerations and factors and

00:37:09.680 some will be more important than others some less important than others and sometimes what's not

00:37:14.160 said at all is equally important. Now, to be fair, having had my own sort of experiences with

00:37:23.440 people, vaccine passports, all of that, I don't understand why it wasn't a decision at the outset

00:37:33.800 to say in your immunization records, there is a new thing added, as opposed to show the teenager

00:37:42.380 at Burger King your phone

00:37:44.440 so that they know you're allowed

00:37:45.580 to have a burger, right?

00:37:46.900 Like that didn't make sense.

00:37:49.380 Right.

00:37:50.140 And, you know, again,

00:37:51.220 it's working on what was said

00:37:53.680 and known at the time.

00:37:54.780 So that's like the point of that comic

00:38:00.240 was obviously the flip block.

00:38:02.620 Yes, yes, of course.

00:38:04.360 I'm hoping to get an apology

00:38:06.080 out of you at some point.

00:38:07.020 So we're going to keep doing this.

00:38:08.540 The next one is from August.

00:38:12.380 18th 2021

00:38:14.620 and this is you know this is a very

00:38:17.140 typical thing you'll see

00:38:18.560 in political comics I'd say

00:38:20.720 but it's

00:38:21.720 the conservative party war room

00:38:24.840 and it's this whole implication

00:38:27.000 of conservatives are actually white

00:38:28.900 supremacists like it's a very sort of 0.88

00:38:30.820 okay yeah we're all racists

00:38:32.960 it's a very sort of

00:38:34.380 I would argue stale

00:38:36.760 kind of cheap talking point that if you're right wing 0.78

00:38:38.860 you're just a racist person you have 0.95

00:38:40.980 like the the 14 words uh which is like a white supremacist dog whistle like we must secure an 0.99

00:38:47.120 existence for the future of white children uh but it's actually just secure our future so i was like

00:38:51.240 making a joke about secure our future uh which was the catchphrase i guess of the conservatives at

00:38:55.980 the time um but do you not see how you're kind of participating in the same sort of like smears a

00:39:03.560 little bit or kind of like mischaracterizations um that happened to to conservatives especially

00:39:10.220 during or people who oppose lockdown um secure the future was a pretty tone deaf

00:39:16.540 motto i'm sorry but are you are you going to stand by and say yeah i think most conservatives

00:39:23.560 are probably white supremacists because that's kind of the message that's not what that says

00:39:26.460 though that's not what that says it's not what it says verbatim but that's the implication

00:39:30.920 no that's your interpretation of it secure the future that's a terrible motto that's a terrible

00:39:37.900 motto terrible how do you think left-wing people are going to interpret this they're gonna be like

00:39:43.020 yeah all conservatives are racist you're right karima high five let's go uh you know read the

00:39:49.260 communist manifesto together i don't know i stand by that comic 100 look at the cookies did you see

00:39:57.820 the cookies in the corner there she's deflecting now now she's deflecting now she's deflecting 1.00

00:40:02.780 look at that there's kai kai's cookies kkk cookies listen i can't help it that

00:40:08.560 there's so many low-hanging fruit in the ways that this is a hilarious comment no no no i stand by

00:40:17.000 this one 100 so you you think that it's it's funny because secure the future is clearly a

00:40:24.700 nod to the 14 words and that's why it's funny it's a toned it's a tone deaf and like poorly

00:40:30.040 thought of in my view even even if we're looking at this from a purely pr perspective that is

00:40:39.320 that is the obvious draw and insinuation so it's either provocative for the sake of being 0.81

00:40:48.120 provocative or stupid and either way that's fair game for a comic in my view this doesn't land 0.99

00:40:54.720 at all for me because I was calling Aaron O'Toole a fat lesbian at the time I just like he's such a 0.99

00:41:02.240 weak conservative so it's like I like you know just to be provocative and to exaggerate to the 0.88

00:41:08.040 absurdity I I wish he was referring to the 14 words like there's no way he was doing that Aaron

00:41:13.380 O'Toole are you kidding me but he also didn't make the I doubt he is responsible for the slogan

00:41:18.000 right there's different elements within a party who are doing the marketing who are doing like

00:41:24.600 the actual policy work who are the face of it um and Aaron O'Toole there was a disconnect

00:41:31.440 obviously he got turf from his own party during the convoy so yeah but the new party still doesn't

00:41:37.440 oppose anything to do with with mass migration at all but so it's not we're gonna have to agree to

00:41:43.120 disagree here I think this is kind of run of the mill hey all conservatives are racist type of

00:41:49.920 because because the thing is being called a racist kareem like that's not like that's not

00:41:54.660 like an innocent thing like that's a very sort of like because it was racist nazi hitler like

00:41:58.760 it goes straight to like you are a bad person i know i get called a racist all the time

00:42:03.020 right so did you but do you not feel bad looking back at some of this stuff and be like maybe i was

00:42:07.800 a little bit to me a little bit a little bit part of the problem maybe

00:42:11.160 all right no i'm sorry that i can't be more apologetic so that's the apology that you're

00:42:18.720 gonna get okay okay fair enough um so we're gonna get into the million person march or the million

00:42:27.400 uh the million march for children did you um go down to any of them i know you might you were

00:42:32.320 posting yeah i was in uh whitby and then pickering nice nice um what was uh what was your

00:42:40.340 interpretation of it because because i was telling people beforehand this this protest is a little

00:42:44.460 of a little bit of a wild card because we've seen the kind of billboard chris josh alexander thing

00:42:48.780 happen and that had its you know its certain following and there was people took note of uh

00:42:55.160 there was a lot of muslim people like muslim parents there with their kids at this protest

00:42:59.680 and actually an individual i interviewed camille uh he actually sort of became a leader of the

00:43:05.720 million march uh for children so this one definitely in toronto anyway there was a there

00:43:10.260 There's a lot of Muslim people out there, so I felt like this had like a new protest in Canada.

00:43:16.800 What was your kind of interpretation?

00:43:18.420 What did you see?

00:43:20.080 Yeah.

00:43:21.880 So what I actually saw in Whitby and Pickering, in Whitby, there was a counter protest as well as a protest.

00:43:30.340 They were fairly similar in size, I would say.

00:43:34.200 And everyone was on the same side of the street, pretty much, just like, you know, sharing the sidewalk, essentially, in front of a high school.

00:43:44.860 And there was not like nothing particularly concerning or noteworthy in the ways that people were interacting.

00:43:54.700 It was fairly run of the mill.

00:43:57.240 There were some speakers out of a truck.

00:43:59.360 uh and you know it was more or less peaceful um apart from sort of the inherent act of being

00:44:07.380 outside of a school which i i don't like any protests outside of schools to be honest um

00:44:15.620 and that goes for the counter protesters as well i understand that their response would be well

00:44:20.140 we're just showing up where the other guys are but it uh i think it's too volatile to be around

00:44:26.140 schools that's my opinion um but in any event um from there there was a convoy to pickering town

00:44:33.420 hall city hall um again there were some more speeches some religious leaders spoke uh and

00:44:41.180 there was a march that was supposed to go to an overpass over the highway 401 um and ultimately

00:44:49.900 that didn't happen there was a standoff with police who prevented road access or sidewalk

00:44:57.020 access to uh to the overpass and there were sort of negotiations that didn't really go anywhere

00:45:05.980 um and then everyone kind of went home but not before stopping along the side of the highway to

00:45:12.140 to hold up signs. So it was, you know, it was not, there was nothing explosive, which actually

00:45:20.080 is why I went to Durham region. I wanted to get kind of a more, a look at it in sort of a more,

00:45:32.680 I'm not sure what word I'm looking for, but a less intense kind of, there weren't clashes

00:45:40.520 between the groups right um and no counter protesters for the march in pickering and

00:45:46.860 maybe a dozen or so um in the in the park there uh but you know my impression or understanding

00:45:54.840 of the event is that it did in fact um originate with um a few muslim community leaders um some

00:46:05.460 with ties to convoy related stuff um others who have emerged specifically around this issue

00:46:12.680 um and the idea was quarterbacked or hijacked whichever however you choose to look at it by

00:46:19.520 sort of secular parent groups um but there was still a very heavy muslim presence uh that was

00:46:26.600 for sure the case in uh in durham um and there were also a fair number of people who identified

00:46:33.700 as Christians and, you know, sort of cohesion between those groups around this issue. I think

00:46:41.720 that a lot of the media framing kind of lapped up the Canadian Anti-Hate Network's narrative of

00:46:49.500 this being hate-fueled and anti-LGBTQ, and that narrative was supported by some of the protesters

00:46:59.920 and the ways they behaved in cities across Canada.

00:47:03.720 And that's going to be the primary focus.

00:47:07.060 But the people who I spoke with, you know, it was a range of views that were expressed.

00:47:14.960 Some who I believe are regular convoy protesters who have just simply shifted to this subject

00:47:24.220 because protest has become a form of community building and a pastime

00:47:29.160 And, you know, they're prepared to run with whatever. There were parents like actual parents who were concerned about various facets of curriculum and school policies.

00:47:42.180 And, you know, there were a handful of people whose views are quite regressive and broader than sort of the stated objective of curriculum and policy.

00:48:00.520 But I would say primarily it was parents who want to, who aren't prepared to cede control of their children to ideologies to which they don't ascribe.

00:48:17.740 Yeah, yeah. And there's such a, you know, consistent pattern here.

00:48:23.940 And I like to relate it to the convoy because the convoy, I was there, I interviewed lots of people.

00:48:28.700 they wanted to stop mandates if there's any one thing that united all those people i would argue

00:48:34.200 it was stopping mandates and then it got characterized by the media as no no they want

00:48:38.540 to overthrow the government they want they have guns all this stuff they're violent they're

00:48:42.240 burning down apartment buildings all of which were lies but it was this very dishonest

00:48:47.940 characterization of why people were generally there and we're seeing the exact same thing here

00:48:52.300 where it's um i'll get justin trudeau to say it it's like yes this was all about transphobia

00:48:58.640 and homophobia it was just about hating gay people right like that's what they're trying to say that 0.83

00:49:02.980 all of a sudden all these parents decided that they that they hate gay people and that's why 0.99

00:49:06.940 they showed up which again a very uh strong mischaracterization um of why parents were there

00:49:14.520 they're concerned about the what's being taught taught to their kids and i think uh they have

00:49:19.600 every right to do that and you you brought it up but i'll emphasize it again um the media was

00:49:25.460 going off the Canadian Anti-Hate Network.

00:49:28.220 It says it right here.

00:49:30.100 CP24 Canadian Anti-Hate Network says

00:49:32.240 marches are anti-LGBTQ2S+.

00:49:35.080 The hate experts said so.

00:49:37.660 So I guess all these people are, 1.00

00:49:39.180 it's just about hating gay people 1.00

00:49:42.820 and not actually telling the truth 0.99

00:49:45.380 about why they're actually there.

00:49:47.380 How are we going to solve this?

00:49:48.860 Because this is the same kind of pattern

00:49:50.540 we've seen, you know,

00:49:51.900 Canadian Anti-Hate Network.

00:49:53.200 um did they target you specifically actually when when they were like when you were being

00:49:58.240 vilified for the um for the chris sky stuff the canadian anti-hate network wrote an article about

00:50:05.680 me that has subsequently been used by a variety of named and anonymous accounts as proof of

00:50:15.340 you being a bad person yeah right like evil i guess um in fact there's one account that was

00:50:22.440 dedicated specifically to me that posted about me every single day anything that I post like

00:50:28.780 they would take or misconstrue and try to portray in the worst possible light do smears by

00:50:34.680 association etc and that account one day during the convoy reposted the article 17 separate times

00:50:42.520 so they're unemployed so yeah are they though I don't know are they unemployed I don't know

00:50:51.440 So it was a cudgel. And from then, the NTA network has, I think, only mentioned me by name maybe once and then by reference maybe a couple of times. But the real heavy lifting is done by, again, both anonymous and named accounts who happen to be parroting the exact same stuff.

00:51:18.800 here's that article i love how they put interview in quotes here plan to interview

00:51:25.200 racist anti-lock what else was i gonna do what else was i gonna do

00:51:29.060 well their whole argument is uh you're platforming this person right like how dare you give them a

00:51:36.640 plat like you can't even let this person speak that's a nonsense concept nonsense yeah but some

00:51:42.480 to your question how do we get past this it's first of all by recognizing that civilian versus

00:51:50.280 civilian and spy versus spy is not is not conducive to results that improve our democracy

00:52:00.040 and it puts us in a very very dark place where neighbors turn against neighbors so we should

00:52:08.280 avoid that at all costs. And the way to avoid that is by focusing on our institutions and

00:52:15.020 making sure that they are as sound as possible, that there are checks and balances, that we

00:52:21.840 minimize interference between them, and that they are holding each other to account, right?

00:52:27.580 Which, you know, is a lofty goal and ambition, you know, a tangible thing that people listening

00:52:34.140 to this right now can do is write to your member of parliament and tell them that the canadian

00:52:42.300 anti-hate network which is seeking five million dollars in funding should not receive that money

00:52:48.300 to be a watchdog they are eminently unqualified for that they've proven that to be the case in

00:52:57.100 in my view. And again, it's not conducive to healthy democracy. So that's a tangible thing

00:53:04.500 that people can do. But, you know, more generally, I think we kind of need to take a step back from

00:53:14.840 constantly upping the ante. And what I mean by that is, it's very easy and tempting to dehumanize

00:53:25.220 one another, to sort of assume the worst of one another, to

00:53:32.940 take cheap shots, all of that. And, you know, I admit that I

00:53:38.360 am guilty of those like falling prey to those instincts

00:53:42.140 sometimes as well.

00:53:43.820 There it is.

00:53:45.260 For sure. But okay, I think all of us. But you know, I can only

00:53:50.960 be accountable for myself. And that's something that I avoid

00:53:54.980 doing and I work on doing because at the end of the day, we all need to coexist. And we can't get

00:54:02.880 to that place if we're constantly at each other's throats. So, you know, it starts with our own

00:54:09.860 rhetoric. It starts with the ways that we engage with strangers online, being mindful that a lot

00:54:17.380 of the accounts you interact with online may not be real people right and you know so dedicate your

00:54:25.960 energy accordingly um and kind of focus on real people right the people in your personal circles

00:54:34.700 and spaces and kind of checking in with one another right it sounds maybe a bit hippy dippy

00:54:40.880 But like, how do we get out of this? It's by reconnecting where division has been sown, right? The pandemic did an incredible job of splitting up families, friendships, you know, all sorts of relationships that just were damaged.

00:55:03.460 And, you know, is it irreparable? I don't know. But reaching out and kind of trying to connect on a human level, I think that's the the answer to this.

00:55:16.800 I agree. Do you have a few more minutes? There's something else I wanted to go into just just to kind of drill into anti-hate before we go.

00:55:23.380 um and i agree with a lot of what you're saying but you know we're able to have a conversation

00:55:30.280 we have disagreements and i feel like when when when those conversations of you know bridging

00:55:35.300 the gap or going across the aisle it's actually quite simple and i feel like the problem is more

00:55:41.320 this uh guilt by association the sort of like radioactive uh effect that happens from cancel

00:55:48.420 culture from the media hype that parrots lies from Canadian Anti-Hate Network. And I'm kind

00:55:57.680 of speaking in generalities, but I think you know what I mean. This kind of phenomenon that happens,

00:56:01.660 it really does, like the hate experts, the Canadian Anti-Hate Network really does act as

00:56:06.400 this moral authority to justify spearing the reputations of people. And so I hear what you're

00:56:14.560 saying. And I agree. However, I feel like the nucleus or the core of this problem are the

00:56:21.800 Canadian anti-hate network and the fact that there is a funded or formerly funded Canadian entity

00:56:28.900 who can almost, this might be an aggressive way to put it, but almost lie with impunity.

00:56:35.540 Like they can get away with just like smearing and twisting things around. And that infrastructure

00:56:43.980 still exists here in Canada because the Canadian NTN network is still there it's still getting

00:56:49.300 quoted by by global news and as long as that's the case Houston we have a problem right um yeah

00:56:57.300 would you agree with that characterization yeah I do um so again that's why I mentioned the

00:57:02.320 tangible action of letting you know what not just your member of parliament all of your

00:57:08.640 representatives know that you're not comfortable with taxpayer dollars going to an organization

00:57:16.300 whose stated mandate is to effectively do call outs on relatively insignificant people

00:57:26.520 because that's the track record um share hate gate with your elected officials um you know

00:57:35.100 this is a national security issue right it's a national security issue if the five eyes partners

00:57:43.220 think that we are like a monty python skit or if our intelligence agencies and i use the word so

00:57:54.500 generously um you know can't discern between a joke and a real threat and to be clear sometimes

00:58:02.380 real threats come camouflaged as jokes but we should be able to parse that out quickly

00:58:10.220 or at least accurately and you know you asked is there kind of you feel that you've lost some

00:58:16.540 faith in institutions i think um was one of your takeaways from this a little bit and that's that's

00:58:21.540 fair but you know silver linings to this first of all there were rcmp officers who called it out as

00:58:29.100 it was happening, saying, hang on, we only have one source. Regardless of what the media is saying,

00:58:35.820 perhaps we should exercise caution. And, you know, that ultimately, Jeremy McKenzie was never

00:58:43.540 charged with sedition or terrorism or kind of any of these high level charges that could have ensued

00:58:53.020 if a frenzy really took place and they wanted to proceed in that way right so that's at least we

00:59:00.260 know that there are some levels of checks and balances knock wood assuming that no one's at

00:59:04.920 his door right now um and kind of a third silver lining is the freedom of information process it

00:59:13.600 worked it gave us information that will help us with informed decision making um everyone is free

00:59:21.360 to do it's very cheap uh to do these freedom of information requests you're entitled to information

00:59:28.160 from the government about decision-making processes but be open-minded don't be tunnel vision

00:59:34.000 like we saw with the rcmp um you have to be prepared to sort of take things that don't fit

00:59:40.400 into your world view um but you know those are like there's some positive takeaways from this

00:59:46.960 but uh yeah to the point about anti-hate continuing to operate in this way of course

00:59:53.280 it will if we don't make enough noise so make noise yeah be respectful in the way that you do

01:00:00.160 it right be reasonable stay grounded in facts no one's going to hear you if you are and i see this

01:00:08.640 a lot and it irritates me on the hate gate um hashtag if you are being blatantly or subtly

01:00:15.920 anti-Semitic in the way that you're expressing your concerns, no one's going to hear you.

01:00:21.220 No one's going to hear you, right? If you are misstating facts, no one's going to hear you,

01:00:27.860 you're going to be dismissed, and you're going to drag everyone else down with you. So if you're

01:00:32.180 not capable of being nuanced, or like, that's not your jam, that's okay, shut up, shut up and let 0.97

01:00:38.780 other people run with the ball because this isn't about any of those things this is about

01:00:46.140 how we want our it's about truth absolutely and it's about how we interact with our institutions

01:00:52.620 and whether we agree that an organization that's not accountable to anyone or anything

01:00:58.960 should have this level of power i personally don't think so so if you agree with that then

01:01:06.000 be smart and strategic in how you raise those concerns. Write to your representatives, do it by

01:01:12.080 email so you have records, be persistent about it, but don't do it in all caps while you're swearing.

01:01:21.040 There's definitely a good way to get the message out in a way that isn't as effective. I certainly

01:01:26.560 agree with that. Although one point, it can be kind of frustrating because it does feel as though,

01:01:34.880 hey make sure you check the facts make sure you don't oversimplify things make sure you tell the

01:01:39.680 truth make sure there is nuance and it's uh you know i think of a quote from from justin trudeau

01:01:47.600 you know like the there will be consequences uh the unvaccinated pose a risk like there's 1.00

01:01:53.200 no nuance there you know like you want to be in a race to the bottom or are you going to elevate

01:01:58.320 i just think it's frustrating because that hasn't stopped that hasn't stopped

01:02:04.000 of course it's frustrating and it's frustrating if your adversaries aren't playing fair or playing 0.98

01:02:09.220 by the rules does that mean you also discard the rules and just like fuck the game and 0.94

01:02:14.200 we're just gonna all descend into anarchy i'm not gonna get hung up on uh nuance and details 0.94

01:02:22.940 uh when there's such an epic intelligence failure uh happening in the country like like i'm not

01:02:28.220 going to that's that's kind of my own personal uh approach to communicating this like well

01:02:33.760 technically there's still some okay rcmp officers that's a fair point and you're absolutely right

01:02:38.780 the fact that uh jeremy mckenzie is hopefully going to beat all of his charges and like you

01:02:44.100 know there still is a system that works thank god but um you know there's a lot to be angry about

01:02:51.240 as well and i get that and people can express their anger and should express their anger but

01:02:56.820 But, you know, try to do it in a way where you're going to be heard is is my gentle suggestion.

01:03:02.560 Right. And and yeah.

01:03:04.580 Thank you so much, Karina. We're going to wrap it up in a second.

01:03:07.540 But first, a quick gotcha question.

01:03:10.500 So get ready. You know, you were just saying how disappointing it is to see an organization like the Canadian Anti-Hate Network receiving funding from the government and being so inefficient or kind of spreading lies, as it were, misinformation.

01:03:23.360 during the pandemic there was a fund to pay online influencers to promote COVID-19 vaccines

01:03:30.900 did you receive any of this funding Karima no no no okay I would have applied but no

01:03:42.700 okay um just had to be sure any last things that you want to say in regards to hate gates we

01:03:51.580 covered a lot of grounds or 1 million March for children or to promote anything else that you got

01:03:58.160 going on? No, just keep using the hate gate hashtag. We trended for over a week straight.

01:04:05.800 Yesterday, there were a few other things going on around the country. So understandable. But keep

01:04:12.300 using that hashtag. And sorry, throw that hashtag in when you're talking about the million March as

01:04:19.420 well absolutely just throw it in there throw it it's only nine characters guys yeah yeah it's and

01:04:24.900 nine characters well worth it because there's a lot to unpack and there's still threads that

01:04:29.640 i hope to unravel um you know it's an evolving story and uh i'm not gonna go quietly into that

01:04:36.980 good night absolutely thank you so much kareem is sad for being on the show um i'm glad we were

01:04:44.980 able to be civil for the most part and uh yeah i'm thanks again so much for for writing uh hate

01:04:51.900 gate and doing the actual work of organizing everything and laying it all out for people

01:04:56.240 because i really feel this is going to be the beginning of uh you know calling out this whole

01:05:00.700 ecosystem of of essentially mischaracterizing canadians and and really fomenting hatred they're

01:05:06.980 the ones fomenting hatred i would argue but um and you can't fight hate with hate so keep that

01:05:12.360 mind folks when you are reacting to this i know it's a big ask but i'm gonna ask you anyway raise

01:05:19.560 your vibration leave your raise your chakras to the love vibration um and as we always say

01:05:25.320 it is okay to demand higher standards.

01:05:28.400 Thanks for watching, guys.

Greg Wycliffe - September 22, 2023

Exploring #HateGate & #1MillionMarch4Children with Caryma Sa’d ｜ Controlled Op 28

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