Greg Wycliffe - Live Brock U Frances Widdowson - Residential School Denialism!

00:00:00.000 Hoping this works.

00:00:01.920 We got a new setup today.

00:00:05.820 We're outside Brock University.

00:00:08.900 Here's the man himself.

00:00:12.080 Brock.

00:00:15.200 There were some Palestinian protesters here.

00:00:18.160 There were some Palestinian protesters here not long ago.

00:00:21.860 But just did an amazing interview with Francis Widdowson for the documentary at SaveFreeSpeech.ca.

00:00:29.380 If you want to donate to that, you can go to savefreespeech.ca slash donate or click on the donate button.

00:00:36.720 It's going to be a good documentary, guys, let me tell you.

00:00:38.760 Great interview with Frances.

00:00:41.280 And we're going to go in.

00:00:42.380 She's doing a Spectrum Street epistemology, which essentially is the question,

00:00:47.940 should residential school denialism be illegal?

00:00:51.600 That's the question today.

00:00:53.120 Or I guess the statement is residential school denialism.

00:00:59.380 Illegal, I believe.

00:01:02.100 ...of the hour.

00:01:03.580 How's it going?

00:01:04.400 I'm going to turn the mic back on.

00:01:05.800 Anyways, some security people around, just so that you know.

00:01:09.420 And they are saying that if you're going to film a student, or anyone,

00:01:16.080 then you just have to let them know that you're filming them for them to be in the shot.

00:01:22.460 Okay, sure.

00:01:23.280 They can't just be filmed unawares.

00:01:27.680 Okay.

00:01:28.200 That's the idea.

00:01:29.380 even though we're in public well i was kind of quizzing them on the legalities of it

00:01:34.180 and it wasn't very clear as to what the legal requirements are for the permission and all this

00:01:40.740 kind of stuff gotcha but i'm not trying to create conflict very well anyway it's pretty obvious

00:01:47.540 people know that things are being filmed but it's just that they're a bit sure they're a bit

00:01:51.540 sensitive about it yeah they i usually ask people on a live stream i'm like hey we're live

00:01:57.620 do you like to want to talk about this so let's first of all turn your mic on

00:02:01.340 because I think our mic all right yours did not turn on yeah yeah no it fell off

00:02:05.540 so I thought and Ron Thompson is here

00:02:12.720 so are we gonna set it up here we're gonna do it over here okay I guess the

00:02:17.300 glass well awesome awesome how's it going we're live on YouTube doing a chat

00:02:25.300 with the people at home come on why are you choosing to stand next to France and

00:02:38.560 Francis widowson someone who's been vilified I mean I guess because usually

00:02:46.200 it's quite common in these situations that people that stand next to Francis

00:02:51.400 may have had run-ins of their own and I've certainly had run-ins of my own

00:02:55.240 at Brock. I was on a hiring committee once where they said that they wouldn't consider a candidate

00:03:01.760 because the candidate didn't share Brock's values. And I thought that was quite interesting

00:03:07.540 because the values that they were saying that this person had were my values. And so I thought,

00:03:12.740 well, if that person's not welcome at Brock and I got hired, how is that acceptable? And so that

00:03:19.380 kind of led to me kind of seeing what was going on and right having some concerns and so then

00:03:27.220 I think that I pay closer attention to the facts and to empirical evidence when I hear people

00:03:33.460 critiqued and criticized so with Francis I mean I've certainly seen her from a distance um

00:03:38.960 I wasn't actually the one that first got in touch with her about rock but when I saw that she might

00:03:44.940 coming here. I certainly supported that because I've seen her work. I've seen what she stands for

00:03:55.380 and we don't agree on everything. But the point is, is that I don't think she is what people say

00:03:59.880 that she is. And so I'm going to stand in her defense. She said something last night that I

00:04:08.320 asked her about which was uh residential schools being genocide is uh this sort of what was it uh

00:04:17.360 doctrine prescribed doctrine of the university um i mean how does that make you feel as a

00:04:25.040 as a university professor yeah i wouldn't i would say i i'm not aware of it being a prescribed

00:04:32.240 doctrine here but it's certainly something that certain members of administration kind

00:04:37.920 of um say and uh i'm i mean i'm quite interested in that kind of discourse because i'm i teach

00:04:46.800 a course called language and power where we look at concept creep which is what's going on with a

00:04:53.120 term like that concept concept creep where you take one term that used to mean one thing and

00:04:58.480 then you use you apply it to a larger set of a larger category basically and so you could say

00:05:05.440 even something as kind of benign as the word justice i used to think that justice had a

00:05:12.480 particular meaning and then probably in 2017 i was on a committee at brock where they were talking

00:05:19.560 about justice and it meant something completely different and that's kind of how you hook the

00:05:25.040 public people that are naive is that you use words that have a particular meaning to them

00:05:29.760 and so a word like genocide obviously if you tell people that a genocide happened the

00:05:37.660 conversation's done they're not going to dispute that so if you say something is unjust or if you

00:05:43.520 say something's inequitable or if you say don't use those kinds of words you're using them to

00:05:50.020 affect the sort of power that elites use in order to both gain power and maintain power over people

00:05:58.940 that don't really understand the way that they're using common terms right and at the very least it

00:06:05.100 it really turns the topic radioactive if you bring up genocide or violence you know who wants to be

00:06:12.300 genocidal or violent you know uh no one so i really think the the creep there helps encourage

00:06:20.940 a culture of silence right and actually at uh francis's talk first talk yesterday

00:06:26.700 she I think it was that your first talk you suggested that a better word would

00:06:31.460 be culture side or was that yes and the thing is that's exactly you know we

00:06:35.400 should be creating new terms to address new concepts who shouldn't be using old

00:06:39.300 terms that aren't really appropriate so you know the United Nations they define

00:06:46.160 genocide in a particular way I think I Francis and I agree on that definition

00:06:51.780 But when you start adding adjectives, et cetera, to those kinds of words.

00:06:57.580 Another thing, I was on a committee at Brock where a draft report was made with respect to, I guess, sexual assaults and harassment and also racial, potential racism on campus.

00:07:18.080 And I was on the committee when a member of senior administration said to the person who was writing the draft report,

00:07:25.960 I want you to open up the word document and do a search and replace and replace every instance of racism with racial violence

00:07:36.420 and every instance of sexual harassment with sexual violence.

00:07:40.900 That's concept creep.

00:07:43.580 They were told to do that?

00:07:45.120 they were told to do that and then the new report came out and all of those terms had been

00:07:49.440 had been changed and that's because there's something more powerful about calling cat

00:07:55.840 calling for example which was listed under harassment sexual violence and that does nothing

00:08:01.840 for victims of actual sexual assault um i'm sure that they don't enjoy having being equated to

00:08:10.240 somebody whistling at somebody but there's a political reason for that there's there's a way

00:08:16.240 in which using language in that way helps people to attain and maintain power yeah um that reminds

00:08:25.440 me that reminds me of something i was uh who was i talking to it was people investigating terrorism

00:08:34.480 or who were doing research on terrorism and they were at a certain age at a certain year they were

00:08:42.320 looking into foreign terrorism they were looking into isis they were looking into like islamic

00:08:47.200 inspired terrorism and then they got tipped off by somebody that's like you know you should really

00:08:52.720 if you really want like more funding and more money in the future you should look into domestic

00:08:57.120 terrorism because that's going to be like the new thing um so can you comment on that in terms of

00:09:02.480 like how maybe there's financial incentives to like you know replace certain words in essays and

00:09:07.920 how that kind of trickles up into into policy or kind of like popular ideas that get pushed in the

00:09:13.680 world of politics so i mean one of the things that's really interesting to me is that historically

00:09:20.320 this type of behavior was associated with the political right so chomsky probably in the noam

00:09:26.160 chomsky in the 1980s late 80s i think wrote a book called manufacturing consent in which he

00:09:32.880 talked about how the media use language for the purpose of accumulating money power etc and they

00:09:41.280 and some of the examples that were given in that era were things like introduction of the term in

00:09:47.120 war collateral damage which was a euphemism for civilian death collateral collateral damage that

00:09:55.360 That was, I think that first appeared at the time of the first Gulf War.

00:09:59.680 And so those kinds of tricks with language have been used to gain money or to gain influential power for a long time.

00:10:08.520 But now it's the political left that's using those.

00:10:11.580 So to get to your point about whether there's a financial incentive, talking about those things,

00:10:17.160 When I came to Brock, there were very few reports of sexual assault because sexual assault was defined in a particular way.

00:10:26.440 Now there's an exponential growth in the report of sexual assaults because now whistling at someone is considered sexual assault.

00:10:34.080 So with those statistics, they're able to hire a massive bureaucracy and an operation.

00:10:40.520 And that's the financial incentive, is the people that use these kinds of language use them in order to say that they need more staff.

00:10:49.720 And oftentimes those staff are friends of theirs from other places, lots of cronyism, et cetera.

00:10:57.720 Nepotism is family related.

00:11:01.900 but what's interesting is there was a report brock actually hired an external company to have

00:11:09.420 a report done conducted i think it was in 2021 maybe it was released where they were

00:11:16.380 they they did a survey of the climate at brock university and one of the main findings of that

00:11:23.500 report was that people who work here are concerned about cronyism and nepotism so right just to

00:11:30.300 change the subject somebody somebody in chat joseph at said i grew up in kamloops and there

00:11:37.340 used to be apple orchards all down the valley there's literally a subdivision called orchards

00:11:42.300 walk with an apple as its logo and there were trees apple trees or fruit trees that were

00:11:51.500 pulled out of the apple orchard that was next to the kamloops city and residential school

00:11:57.420 after those trees had grown for about 60 years or so and so we did get some information from

00:12:03.500 someone who was involved as a student like a summer student who was involved in pulling those trees

00:12:10.140 out i believe it was in the early 60s that those trees were pulled out and so that is speculative

00:12:16.700 on this person's part that some of those soil disturbances could be due to the trees being

00:12:23.740 pulled out of the ground at that time disturbing the soil right so that's an interesting possible

00:12:29.420 anomaly anomalies could be due to that is one hypothesis so uh i think i think we should set

00:12:37.020 this stuff up right try to get some try to get some students over here so i'm just thinking of

00:12:42.140 where would you think would be the best place we can do it right in front of here

00:12:46.220 i think if we can do it here why not maybe even have it on can we use this counter let's just do

00:12:52.380 it that way so we're not kicking these things around and then i'm going to um i'm going to get

00:12:57.660 these um i'm going to get these set up awesome we'll be talking to some brock u students shortly

00:13:06.460 you want to explain it yeah so these are the mats uh uh this is spectrum street epistemology it's

00:13:13.820 called spectrum street epistemology and it is about trying to get people to state what they

00:13:22.700 think is true so that's the first imperative or the first type of thing that we're trying to do

00:13:30.380 and this is a big problem at universities because there's a lot of self-censorship that's going on

00:13:35.900 because people are afraid to say the wrong thing and this encourages them to be able to say what

00:13:41.100 what they think is true and so we're going to have a claim that we are going to put out there

00:13:46.400 and the claim that we've announced today which and there's going to be related claims is uh the

00:13:53.520 the um residential school denialism should be illegal that's the claim uh and this is a very

00:14:01.980 important claim right now because there is an event that is being held in gatineau right now

00:14:07.240 with the special interlocutor, and it was argued just a couple of hours ago in Gatineau

00:14:15.120 that residential school denialism should be illegal.

00:14:18.520 So we want to see what students think about this claim, and they might strongly agree.

00:14:23.920 For example, Sean Uberclown-Carlton strongly agrees with residential school denialism being illegal,

00:14:33.040 whereas myself my own personal opinion would be strongly disagree because i think nothing could

00:14:39.720 be more ridiculous so how about we can do a demonstration if you want to set it up

00:14:44.340 and then while you're setting it up i'll chat with you for a second if you don't mind 0.59

00:14:48.380 uh it's going to be a spicy topic though i hope you're ready

00:14:51.300 we were talking about uh we were talking about genocide earlier the term you're talking about

00:14:57.240 concept creep you know you you attach the word genocide to a topic and people obviously are

00:15:02.840 more timid to talk about it there's a lot of canadians who are afraid to even talk about

00:15:06.860 you know politics in general but uh there were some palestinian flags out front did you see that

00:15:12.880 demonstration out there and so i'm uh i'm somebody who is very interested at like the meta of

00:15:22.180 politics of the conversation around these different conversations and um yeah if you talk to people on

00:15:29.080 both sides of the Israel-Palestine conflict or the Israel-Arab nation conflict, you will hear

00:15:34.300 people from both sides saying that the other side is genociding them, right? So I guess what do you

00:15:40.700 have an opinion on this topic or like what do you think is important for Canadians to understand

00:15:45.400 when looking at this very divisive and polarized and topic when there's genocide on both sides of

00:15:53.960 the equation or at least accusations of genocide on both sides of the equation yeah so I mean I

00:16:00.780 don't I obviously would approach this topic very carefully but I think what I would say is I'm

00:16:07.580 probably unusually nuanced in terms of that particular conflict and my position would be

00:16:13.480 that there are people on both sides of that debate who probably support and espouse genocide

00:16:21.360 And most people are just the kind of average citizens that are involved on both sides are pawns in a bigger system.

00:16:31.580 Are pawns in a bigger system.

00:16:33.980 Right. I mean, you might hear certain people take a position on that that they haven't thought through.

00:16:40.820 They're just kind of echoing whatever they've been told by people who have something to gain or lose in that particular conflict.

00:16:51.060 So I think that I'm not naive to the fact that there's something bigger going on that involves a geopolitical kind of maneuvering that's happening all over the Middle East.

00:17:04.400 And that I would say that probably no political actor is innocent.

00:17:12.640 So I wouldn't take a side. 0.66

00:17:14.380 I would say that this is kind of dirty, nasty politics.

00:17:17.900 but i would say that the average citizen is probably just going along with whatever the

00:17:25.720 current yeah i mean it's kind of an interesting topic because you brought up the nuance and i

00:17:32.340 think that's very important and i feel like it completely lacks with the israel-palestine thing

00:17:36.100 um you will get what always in like not enrages me but always i find very interesting is um

00:17:44.200 you will get people either all the way one side or all the way the other and they'll be like no

00:17:50.380 no there's no nuance here like that side's evil period and they're like no no no nuance here the

00:17:54.760 other side no they're the evil side and it actually is reflected in canadian politics along

00:18:00.300 party lines as well there's the conservative party that is definitely more pro zionist pro

00:18:05.180 israel the other side is evil you had um i'm trying to think of a direct example from pierre

00:18:10.260 poliev oh he called iran just a genocidal regime and it would be a gift to the world from israel

00:18:18.420 if israel bombed iran so that's that's not nuanced really at all but then people would make the

00:18:25.480 argument when you go to the liberal side the left-wing side they kind of have the you know

00:18:29.360 palestinians have done nothing wrong and they're they're kind of unanimously maybe not the party

00:18:35.480 necessarily there's a few there would be a few mps who would put forward that argument that it's

00:18:46.220 just a resistance an active resistance those kinds of comments about it right uh but do either of you

00:18:52.800 care to comment on this this sort of phenomenon of like no nuance playing out in the world of

00:18:58.960 canadian politics well it's about accumulating power it's about polling and finding out what

00:19:04.000 your base wants and supports and um i mean i i often have friends say to me well how come you

00:19:09.760 i have an undergraduate degree in political science and i and i often have friends say well

00:19:14.520 how come you don't go into politics and the answer is well i couldn't go into politics because i'm

00:19:18.380 nuanced i couldn't toe a party line i wouldn't i would not be cooperative with right with any

00:19:24.160 particular side even though i may lean in one direction um and agree on many issues i don't

00:19:30.660 think that it's healthy in a democracy to have such extremes and polarization because

00:19:34.980 we need to have debate. But Parliament is not academia. And so I get why it doesn't

00:19:42.320 happen there. Obviously what brings us here today is that it's also now not happening

00:19:46.480 in academia. And academia is where we should be having the debates that then inform the

00:19:51.560 political system. Sure. So we've got Peter Rogozian. This is the, and James Lindsay as well, the two people who wrote the

00:20:00.660 the book how to have impossible conversations this is where the method of spectrum street

00:20:07.480 epistemology came out and as you can see we've got our mats that we've laid out here and we're

00:20:14.020 going to have a number of claims i spent uh my time on the plane as i was coming over to toronto

00:20:21.060 thinking a little bit about some of the claims that we can investigate and the denialism of

00:20:26.080 course is should be illegal as the main one but we have things it brings out the question of what

00:20:32.460 residential goal denialism is and then various forms of speech which should be illegal those

00:20:39.840 kinds of questions and then questions surrounding genocide what the nature of genocide is and

00:20:45.320 whether genocide denial is that we're talking about is that genocide denial should be illegal

00:20:50.680 those kinds of claims those are just got some kind of suggestions in terms of

00:20:54.780 writing out possibilities but what we want to do is we want to speed it so

00:21:00.680 there's two rules to spectrum street epistemology the first is is that you

00:21:06.880 have to pick a mat you have to pick a mat that you're going to stand on you

00:21:10.660 can't be straddling the mats and secondly you've got us you before the

00:21:18.340 claim is stated you stand on neutral so the neutral is the position and then you move to

00:21:22.820 whichever position you think represents your view and then you are asked why is it that you

00:21:30.260 strongly agree or you disagree with this claim and then you articulate why that's the case

00:21:38.020 and then after that there's two possibilities one is you can be asked clarifying questions if it's

00:21:43.940 not very clear what you said about something for example residential school denialism what what is

00:21:50.180 your definition of residential school denialism or you can start over and have a new claim

00:21:58.020 so you could say residential school denialism is denying that the residential schools were genocidal

00:22:06.260 you could still have another claim like that and that's how you're trying to get at the reasons

00:22:11.700 for why people came to the level of confidence that they have in a

00:22:17.280 particular claim okay so that's what we're gonna do we'll start with Ron so

00:22:21.240 we'll get a bit of a sense of how this works and people can kind of see what

00:22:25.320 happens we're gonna see how confident Ron is in a bunch of different things

00:22:29.780 let's go wrong so Ron you're gonna be on the neutral so you know you always start

00:22:34.640 neutral yes okay and then you state the claim and so the claim is residential school denialism

00:22:44.800 should be illegal move what if i'm still neutral you can be you see on neutral that's up that's up

00:22:53.920 okay so ron is on the strongly disagree mat

00:23:01.120 why have you chosen the strongly disagree Matt I guess because I think if

00:23:07.660 you can make any kind of speech illegal then anything could be fair game and so

00:23:13.360 even if I don't actually hold a position on this particular issue yeah I don't

00:23:20.140 think that I would be safe if such a law was passed because I can think of a lot

00:23:24.460 of other things that are much more contentious that that I might say or

00:23:30.440 want to say and um that the government could then pass a law saying you know you're not allowed to

00:23:36.760 talk about that either okay and and so like historically um that's just not a good thing

00:23:43.640 that leads to totalitarianism okay so um and this is another aspect of the method is that you try as

00:23:51.000 often as you can to repeat back what the person has put forward as their reasons

00:23:58.520 so that you don't misrepresent their position on this question.

00:24:04.000 So from what I can tell from what you said is it's not so much residential school denialism itself.

00:24:14.880 It's just general making speech illegal because making speech illegal results in various kind of autocratic types of developments occurring.

00:24:28.520 when you when you make any any form of speech illegal is that correct yeah that's right but

00:24:35.000 it's probably beyond that because it's also it's also the fact that i think that when you have

00:24:42.080 physical violence that happens yeah that the precursor to that is shutting down speech i

00:24:48.700 think that the more that we're able to talk and listen and hear others view viewpoints that we

00:24:54.620 may not agree with that that actually has the potential to prevent physical violence okay over

00:25:00.620 the long term now on specifically on the issue of residential school denialism i'm probably would be

00:25:09.020 perceived as being somewhat flippant on that because as you've alluded to i don't even know

00:25:13.180 what that means okay and i think that do you have any do you have any sense of what like how would

00:25:17.980 you define residential school denialism well i think that how how would i define it i mean i

00:25:26.220 think the way that people who use the term want people to understand it is that they want it to

00:25:32.540 be understood to mean that someone says that residential schools are all good so if you say 0.97

00:25:38.460 that residential schools are all good right you are a residential school denialist correct

00:25:44.780 that's i think that that's that's how i think these things are intended to be understood when

00:25:51.020 someone makes that allegation okay and in your view if you did say that that residential schools

00:25:57.420 are all good that should not be illegal that should not be illegal i mean i think that such

00:26:04.540 a person that's unreasonable an unreasonable position to take i think that it is hurtful to

00:26:11.260 some people but um i would i would say that that's not the point the point is is that people should

00:26:19.740 be allowed to express things that are uncomfortable if i don't want to hear them well then i will turn

00:26:25.500 off the tv or turn off whatever it is the person talking okay um and and so on the this is the

00:26:31.820 other thing that we do we tend to do in in this method is we try to see how confident people are

00:26:39.420 about their the strength of their position so like what kind of evidence or arguments is there

00:26:47.740 some evidence or some arguments that could be presented to you that would make you move to the

00:26:54.780 disagree map like become less strongly disagree and more disagree like you mentioned for example

00:27:03.180 that not making speech illegal, allowing people to discuss things,

00:27:08.400 even things which are hurtful and upsetting,

00:27:11.820 that lessens the violence in the society.

00:27:16.020 So what happens if it could be shown to you 0.51

00:27:19.960 that saying that residential schools were all good, for example, 0.97

00:27:26.160 did not, in fact, created more violence

00:27:31.580 or created a more violent society,

00:27:35.120 would that result in you moving more to the disagree position,

00:27:41.120 away from the strongly disagree?

00:27:42.820 How much is that tied to your confidence in your strength of your disagreement?

00:27:52.100 I think if it could be shown, not that it decreases violence,

00:27:56.540 if it's shown that it doesn't,

00:27:57.580 but if it could be shown that it actually what i would say incited violence okay if that if

00:28:03.740 somebody saying that caused other people as wacky as they might be to go out and commit violence

00:28:10.420 then i probably would move a bit on that issue because um but but i think that that that's a

00:28:18.420 hypothetical that seems completely implausible okay but let's just do the hypothetical that

00:28:24.920 saying that residential schools were all good that resulted in some violence breaking out

00:28:32.760 would that result in you thinking that that saying that res you leading to you to have a

00:28:39.500 less strongly disagree position on saying the residential schools are all good should not be

00:28:46.740 illegal so should would it be you be less certain about not having an illegal when you heard that

00:28:52.680 there was some kind of violence that emerged from you saying residential schools were all good?

00:28:58.540 If the violence was directed at the person making that claim or people that supported that claim,

00:29:05.900 then I would say that's their decision. But if there were just random acts of violence,

00:29:10.720 I would say that at least in the short term, that in order to keep the peace, so to speak,

00:29:17.980 that there not that it would be out outright prohibited but that in a

00:29:24.100 particular environment if it could be shown that there was violence that was

00:29:27.640 happening as a result then I would say that there could be a temporary ban of

00:29:33.700 some sort put on that speech okay so I think maybe we'll do another claim so

00:29:40.500 we're gonna move Ron if you can just go back to neutral test out a few more

00:29:44.980 things so we heard a lot we've heard a lot on social media and all these kinds

00:29:53.220 of things about genocide denial hate speech these kinds of claims we could

00:30:00.400 have a claim about genocide denial so this idea of genocide denial is hate

00:30:08.660 speech that's the claim what's your position on the claim of genocide denial

00:30:14.020 is hate speech yes so what we try to do a little bit is get at that nuance a

00:30:29.440 little bit so I guess the first question is what is your definition of genocide

00:30:36.180 my definition of genocide would probably be I mean you I think use gave the

00:30:42.260 United Nations definition I would agree with that that it has to do with trying

00:30:46.040 to eliminate a particular group and is it physical elimination like is it is

00:30:55.040 it killing does it have to involve killing genocide I would say that's the

00:30:58.660 historically understood use of the term so generally the intentional killing

00:31:05.180 of a probably some kind of ethnic group some kind of identifiable group so so I

00:31:11.020 I mean, it may be unambiguous, something like the Holocaust, something like what happened in Rwanda, I would consider those to be genocide. 0.58

00:31:18.400 Okay. And you're on the disagree, Matt. You're not on the strongly disagree, Matt.

00:31:25.060 So what would make you move? Like, why is it that you're not on the strongly disagree, Matt?

00:31:32.540 I guess it has something to do with how you define hate speech.

00:31:35.800 Okay. So how do you define hate speech?

00:31:38.360 now that i'm thinking about it i suppose hate speech i would define it as inciting some kind

00:31:46.280 of violence against a particular group okay so your definition of hate speech is the incitement

00:31:54.780 of violence and if not not just violence i mean maybe even harassment okay but again how do you

00:32:04.280 define harassment but targeting individuals on the basis of a group okay targeting uh individuals

00:32:14.040 on the basis of their membership in a group um and so it seems to me that you're not like in

00:32:21.680 sort of complete alignment with the idea that genocide denial is involves completely like it's

00:32:30.900 not the most extreme kind of position on the targeting so i mean i guess there's some there

00:32:36.800 again it's nuanced because it would depend on the specific example and if you if you gave me a

00:32:43.200 specific example then i might say i strongly agree that that okay should be disallowed but i would

00:32:49.760 need a specific example um okay so the the claim that we're investigating is that genocide denial

00:32:58.440 is hate speech and hate speech is defined as in targeting of an individual and it seems that

00:33:11.320 you don't think that you think that it's not quite sort of a targeting but it's a little bit

00:33:17.160 of a targeting of a group to say you're denying that genocide has occurred and why is it that

00:33:24.360 that's kind of targeting like isn't it just a a semantical kind of type of argument maybe maybe

00:33:31.320 there are two separate things because you could have a genocide denier who denies the genocide

00:33:37.000 happened in rwanda you could have you could have something like that and in armenia i believe the

00:33:42.280 armenian case like there's a bit of polarization on that issue i i'm not really i'm not very

00:33:48.360 familiar with the Armenian case myself. As well, there's other kinds of cases like I think someone

00:33:55.480 did say that China was guilty of genocide. Also Gaza, like genocide is happening in Gaza.

00:34:05.080 So there's whether genocide has actually occurred in that context, but then there's the question of

00:34:11.320 if you do deny that that has happened is that like some people would just say

00:34:17.820 you're you're just kind of disputing the the application of that term to that

00:34:23.860 particular I guess what I don't understand is okay if I say that I that

00:34:30.220 you and I agree on what genocide is okay so we agree on what it is and you say it

00:34:35.200 happened in such and such a situation and I say no it didn't happen there yeah

00:34:38.500 yeah then that kind of denial I think is a bit more ambiguous because I'm saying

00:34:45.340 I don't trust the reports that are claiming and making these sorts of

00:34:48.940 allegations if someone's being unreasonable okay okay I'm gonna put you

00:34:55.300 on the spot here Ron I want you go to neutral because I got the best I got the

00:35:00.180 best claim with respect to this issue. Holocaust denial should be illegal.

00:35:11.900 Okay. And so in terms of why you're strongly disagreeing on that, is that the same kind of

00:35:20.880 reason? It's because it's not nuanced. So it's a blanket statement. There's many forms of

00:35:27.900 Holocaust denial. Okay. I don't agree

00:35:29.980 with any of them. Some of them might

00:35:32.080 lead to violence. Some of them might

00:35:34.000 not. I'm not going to have a law that just says you

00:35:35.900 can't say that. Yeah.

00:35:38.180 And so in order to have

00:35:40.200 like, like to

00:35:42.100 move, to say yes,

00:35:43.960 I would consider, or maybe we'll try another

00:35:45.920 kind of thing about Spectrum Street

00:35:47.900 epistemology, which is

00:35:48.940 I'm going to, I'm going to

00:35:51.980 what happens often because I would

00:35:54.000 I'm on the same, I 0.83

00:35:56.040 share the same position with you on holocaust denial i don't think it should be illegal i think 0.95

00:36:01.400 that it's kind of a silly kind of claim because i think it's quite well documented idiotic but i 0.86

00:36:07.320 don't think people should put in jail i don't think that should happen for those who don't know uh 0.97

00:36:12.280 holocaust denial is a crime in canada it's under it's under hate speech in the criminal code just

00:36:17.160 just so you guys know at home so we're both you know um we're both opposed to that

00:36:22.920 piece of legislation and i think in fact that is connected to why we're dealing with this

00:36:28.400 residential school denialism kind of issue now because of course some groups are saying why are

00:36:35.020 some groups protected under these legal things and other groups are not if you're going to go for one

00:36:40.960 group why not have the other group now that's whether they're comparable or not is another

00:36:47.000 matter which we can get into but what happens with because what we like to have with spectrum

00:36:53.440 street epistemology is ideally to have someone who would stand on the strongly agree position

00:37:02.140 and so what happens in these cases because most often people who do spectrum street epistemology

00:37:08.080 you know they're free speech people that's why they're doing it because they're not they don't

00:37:13.080 have any forbidden kinds of areas that they don't want to go into so what you

00:37:18.780 do is you flip a coin to get one person to if you want to argue it yourself or

00:37:25.260 you want the other person to argue the opposite position so we've flipped the

00:37:30.300 coin one do you want to argue that position or do you want you want to

00:37:36.820 they that position okay and so uh ron is going to take the position of the uh holocaust denial

00:37:48.420 should be you strongly agree that holocaust denial should be illegal and what do you think

00:37:53.860 is the best reason that would be given for saying that the holocaust holocaust denial should be

00:38:02.180 illegal it hurts people's feelings it hurts people's feelings um and hurt should so in terms

00:38:12.260 of how people are thinking about this do you think that all things that hurt people's feelings

00:38:19.780 should be illegal well i think that there are some experiences that people have that are

00:38:26.500 more traumatic than other experiences and so if someone for example were to have a relative who

00:38:33.540 died in the holocaust yes those people would experience a kind of trauma that i wouldn't

00:38:39.220 experience because i don't have relatives that died in the holocaust yes so in terms of other

00:38:46.340 situations if there are other genocidal circumstances or other very very serious

00:38:52.980 things that have happened and people deny that that's happened should those things if people

00:39:01.140 are strongly agreeing that the holocaust is should be illegal would they also argue that those other

00:39:08.340 terrible events that that happened like i think it was actually sandy hook there might have been

00:39:12.740 something in the states about the the sandy hook the killing of all the children at that school and

00:39:18.020 i believe it's alex jones who was saying that that was all sort of kind of a hoax and this

00:39:24.100 had been made up and he he got subjected to some kind of legal process i believe because

00:39:31.140 yeah because it was seen as being a such a significant falsehood and it was so upsetting

00:39:38.180 to the people that therefore he should suffer some kind of state sanctioned penalty so

00:39:44.180 Do you think that people who are beyond the strongly agree position with respect to the Holocaust being illegal,

00:39:50.640 they would also argue that a whole bunch of other kind of very upsetting, horrible things that people were denying should also be illegal?

00:39:59.820 They should be illegal because they caused trauma.

00:40:03.080 If someone had significant trauma result, they also might be considered illegal if the person who's denying it,

00:40:10.660 it might be connected to who the person was might be degree so if the person is denying and is in a

00:40:15.860 position of authority like alex jones was if he's influencing a lot of other people to believe

00:40:23.060 something that's patently false then that kind of um behavior could lead to people not taking it

00:40:32.420 seriously and if they don't take it seriously there's a risk that it could happen again

00:40:36.340 So in terms of the Holocaust denial being illegal, do you think that one of the reasons, one of the best reasons possibly for that is that if people get away with denying the Holocaust, it minimizes what happened to the groups that were killed or maybe just the Jewish population would be the one that would be the most, obviously the most kind of upset by that.

00:41:03.720 it could result in another attempt to exterminate the Jewish population.

00:41:11.260 Exactly. 0.96

00:41:12.100 Is that kind of the...

00:41:13.520 It's downplaying it.

00:41:14.280 It's downplaying it.

00:41:15.300 And so if you get enough people to believe that it didn't happen,

00:41:18.720 then we don't learn from history.

00:41:22.680 So it could happen again.

00:41:25.240 Okay.

00:41:25.840 And in thinking about that reason that you've just given,

00:41:29.220 would that have any effect on the person who would strongly disagree with the Holocaust

00:41:35.900 and why wouldn't it why wouldn't that be a convincing kind of reason because I think

00:41:43.460 at at the base of it it has to do with whether or what your position is on compelled speech okay

00:41:50.340 and if you believe that your thought life is connected with your ability to speak that

00:41:57.780 language and thought are the same thing then if I'm not allowed to express myself then basically

00:42:04.820 that's going to lead to me not being able to think through these things and have them contested by

00:42:10.280 other people and so there's no possibility that I'm going to change my mind and that's actually

00:42:16.180 one of the reasons why I strongly disagree is that I think the best way to change someone's

00:42:21.500 mind is to have a conversation yes and not to make it illegal not to make it illegal because

00:42:26.620 what that does is it drives it underground okay and then you start getting people acting kind of

00:42:32.780 covertly okay guerrilla okay so we want to do another claim and this this feeds into the

00:42:37.180 residential school denialism uh so go to neutral because i think this was a major thing we heard

00:42:44.300 at kimberly murray's uh uh special interlocutor shindig that was happening in the gatineau

00:42:52.620 So, making residential school denialism illegal will reduce the amount of residential school denialism.

00:43:03.780 Move.

00:43:11.000 Okay.

00:43:12.400 So, and that sort of applies, I think, what you were talking about there.

00:43:18.080 And I thought that was very interesting, what you were saying about your thought life and your ability to articulate things.

00:43:27.280 And if you're stopped from articulating certain ideas, your thoughts are, you're not really able to deal with your thoughts very effectively.

00:43:35.880 Well, they're more fixed.

00:43:37.000 Yes.

00:43:37.200 There's less chance that you're going to become more nuanced.

00:43:39.600 Yes. So that means that in terms of making residential school denialism, using your kind of ideas about that, is it possible that that would make people more, would you argue that it would make people more entrenched in their denialism?

00:44:00.380 they'll become more they'll become more entrenched what they'll do is they'll find other people like

00:44:04.140 them okay so we tiptoe around these things i think it was i don't remember who the author was but

00:44:09.660 somebody used the term behavioral bilingualism in the soviet union yes the idea being that the

00:44:16.780 regime in the soviet union didn't win by suppressing free speech it just moved it in

00:44:23.180 side of homes and people talked about it privately and that's one of the great ironies i think of

00:44:30.380 the current era in universities in Canada is that when somebody tries to stop somebody from

00:44:37.500 talking about a particular topic, and they say that there's harm that comes from it just being

00:44:44.840 those words, those basically sound waves occurring on this campus, okay? So there's something

00:44:53.240 harmful about emitting those sound waves. The fact is, is that very similar sound waves,

00:44:59.200 meaning very similar conversations are held around campus all the time it's just that we engage in

00:45:05.980 behavioral bilingualism on our university campuses where we say the right thing or don't say things

00:45:12.000 in public and we find compatriots in private where we talk about what our views are and so

00:45:18.980 there's lots of people at Brock who I talk about things with who would never say those things

00:45:23.220 publicly and we kind of reinforce those beliefs amongst each other and kind of build a kind of

00:45:32.260 camaraderie around those beliefs which does make them more entrenched and i don't think that would

00:45:38.180 be the case if i'm able to say my belief and have someone say you know i don't i don't agree with

00:45:44.660 that okay hmm very interesting yeah so uh do you want to do a couple more claims or what's your i

00:45:52.980 i would definitely love to get some students involved uh what do you what do you um i mean

00:45:58.180 i was thinking i would just ask them like hey do you want to be part of a thought experiment game

00:46:02.900 or something yeah you start with something that's not on your list like something simple i i do have

00:46:08.900 a good claim to do but i'm just thinking maybe we should can i like move these around a bit

00:46:14.980 uh or just because like they're they're all like upside down if we all flip them you know what i

00:46:19.860 mean here just uh hold this first yeah yeah as long as they're in the like radiations that

00:46:27.860 they're supposed to be in okay so you're doing the uh the line this is the other method that's done

00:46:37.620 is that you have the line instead of this the horseshoe peter for some reason

00:46:56.260 immediately relevant yeah like what would you suggest something like about you know universities

00:47:04.740 university food courts. Hey, do you guys want to be part of a thought experiment game?

00:47:15.140 A thought experiment? Yeah. What do we have to do? We state a claim and then you stand on one

00:47:23.300 of the mats based on how you feel about the claim, whether you agree with it or disagree with it.

00:47:27.700 Do you want to? I think we do have to go. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah, sorry. We have to go. We have

00:47:33.140 No, no, no problem.

00:47:34.380 No problem.

00:47:36.260 We've got to keep asking.

00:47:38.200 Got to get the students involved.

00:47:39.640 First, before you introduce something like university food services charges.

00:47:47.720 I mean, I think we should go straight forward if they say yes.

00:47:50.300 I think we should, yeah.

00:47:50.980 We should ask them the big question.

00:47:52.260 Yeah, yeah.

00:47:53.140 I do have one until we find somebody.

00:47:55.640 I do have one in the meantime.

00:47:57.040 Yeah.

00:47:57.780 I can do it if you want.

00:47:58.940 I think it would be cool if you both did it at the same time.

00:48:00.560 Yeah, let's move through.

00:48:01.320 Because you think we're going to do it this same week?

00:48:02.460 Uh, no, I think it's relevant to what we're talking about.

00:48:10.200 All misinformation should be censored online.

00:48:21.180 Both strongly disagree.

00:48:22.640 So now we do the thing.

00:48:25.100 We have a coin toss.

00:48:27.120 Which one do you want?

00:48:27.960 um I I can I I can do the I can do the I'll do the I'll do the other side oh

00:48:35.700 you'll do the hypothetical okay and so now I'm going to think of the best

00:48:43.020 reason so let's start you guys both went here first so let's start with the

00:48:47.280 strongly disagree so let's hear your why why do you strongly disagree that all

00:48:51.840 misinformation should be censored online well who gets to adjudicate what

00:48:56.940 I mean, that's the bottom line is who gets to adjudicate that.

00:49:01.440 I think people listening to it should adjudicate it.

00:49:04.640 There's a reason why I consume media on the left and right

00:49:09.220 so that I can try to come to some kind of understanding

00:49:12.460 of where the truth may or may not lie.

00:49:15.600 Are you hearing this?

00:49:17.360 Okay, so, yeah, well, that's important.

00:49:20.400 I would like to try to come to some kind of

00:49:23.100 understanding of where the truth may or may not lie.

00:49:26.000 let's bring you two together but but in terms of Ron's answer with the

00:49:39.920 spectrum sheet epistemology like one thing that could have been could be

00:49:43.040 asked is like let's say there could be a like a an authority who was able to

00:49:50.300 make that this determination about what was actually if you know would that then

00:49:55.400 result, like that kind of question.

00:49:57.580 Like if we get a super AI robot

00:49:59.440 that's going to determine what is

00:50:01.540 misinformation and what is not for misinformation.

00:50:03.360 I'm going to think of the best

00:50:05.540 reason that I can think of

00:50:07.580 for this strongly agree position.

00:50:09.440 I'm just trying to think about

00:50:11.600 it.

00:50:14.260 And I'm going to, and see

00:50:15.520 if you can guess what my reason is

00:50:17.240 that I have.

00:50:19.120 That I've thought of.

00:50:21.580 He has to guess?

00:50:23.100 In my head, yep.

00:50:25.400 Misinformation will cause people to believe things that are untrue.

00:50:33.400 No, that's not it.

00:50:36.400 What I think the best reason is...

00:50:43.400 For banning misinformation?

00:50:45.400 Yeah.

00:50:46.400 I guess I don't know what it is.

00:50:52.400 so i i would i think that the the best reason is is that in

00:51:01.920 if people believe untrue things it can result in them acting in ways which are very harmful

00:51:12.080 for other people harmful harmful which are harmful to to society that could that could

00:51:20.800 so then therefore you have and and you know that was kind of the argument about COVID like why

00:51:25.440 why the vaccine like all the misinformation about vaccines should be you know what was claimed to be

00:51:31.880 what was claimed to be misinformation like I don't I'm not an expert on that area so I don't know what

00:51:36.580 the whole ins and outs of that was but I heard this kind of being made is that you need to sort

00:51:42.060 of stop these kinds of claims from being made because if you allow them to be there people are

00:51:47.360 not going to get vaccinated and if they're not vaccinated then this will result in this pandemic

00:51:51.980 spreading all over the place so in the public interest we need to we need to suppress that

00:51:58.020 misinformation yeah yo bro do you want to play you want to play the game of playing we're doing a

00:52:04.660 thought experiment we're doing a thought except a thought experiment of like yeah like free speech

00:52:12.000 politics yeah yeah it's uh so what's what's the claim again we have the claim the first

00:52:20.120 the initial claim yeah yeah uh residential school denialism should be illegal

00:52:24.760 it's like the jubilee videos you like you're going to disagree or agree and then say why

00:52:35.360 okay cool i just thought it looked like you were filming us or something okay cool

00:52:45.200 um we got to recruit some students here

00:52:51.440 we got to recruit some students

00:52:55.280 yeah yeah we just got to keep asking

00:53:00.680 In the meantime, we're going to do some of these...

00:53:06.700 Hey, do you guys want to do a thought experiment game?

00:53:09.560 This guy's in a rush. He's catching a bus.

00:53:12.400 Great.

00:53:13.000 They don't want to.

00:53:14.440 They don't want to.

00:53:14.460 You want to participate in the thought experiment?

00:53:18.720 Okay, sure.

00:53:19.860 Let's go.

00:53:20.940 Yeah, yeah.

00:53:22.880 What do I do?

00:53:24.240 Is it all right if we film you as well? Is that okay?

00:53:26.960 Yes, sir. No problem.

00:53:27.860 Awesome.

00:53:28.060 So you go on mute.

00:53:28.620 and there's only two roles one is you're standing there you just face the other way

00:53:34.060 that's good you can't straddle the two uh yeah you've got to choose your mat yep and we start

00:53:40.660 on neutral okay we're looking at the res the question of the residential schools today

00:53:44.780 and so um i'm not sure if you know this but i do in gatineau there is currently a thing going on

00:53:52.360 now where um there was a panel saying that residential school denialism should be made

00:53:58.280 illegal that was the claim resident resident was called residential denialism so it should

00:54:06.360 be made illegal yeah yeah and so what's your uh where would you stand on that issue it should

00:54:11.960 be illegal yes okay and so why would you strongly disagree with the claim that residential school

00:54:21.080 denialism should be illegal freedom of speech of course okay yeah and what is your um what do you

00:54:26.760 how would you define residential school denialism like people do you mean that that people uh they

00:54:33.640 will deny what happened in the residential school for the native people um that could be a definition

00:54:38.840 of it like we're just we're not sure in your view when you hear the words residential school denialism

00:54:44.360 yeah that that's what i came to mind is that what you think yeah that it denies what do you think

00:54:48.760 it's denying denying that those children were mistreated or killed somehow like undied 100

00:54:57.400 years ago okay so that they your view of residential school denialism is that your

00:55:03.800 people are denying that the residential schools caused harm to indigenous people or

00:55:13.480 denying that they indigenous people died or i'm just trying to get a bit of a sense of what you're

00:55:18.440 The denying people were mistreated, the children were mistreated.

00:55:23.440 So the denial that the children were mistreated.

00:55:30.440 And so you said that you strongly disagree with making that illegal because of free speech.

00:55:38.440 And so what is it about free speech that you think, why do you think that things concerning free speech should not be made illegal?

00:55:47.440 made illegal like what what is it about free speech which makes you think that

00:55:51.220 it should be protected well I believe people can say whatever they say yeah 0.95

00:55:56.680 right like I mean like if today we can legalize these residential public

00:56:04.000 tomorrow the country that they can legalize anything okay well like like

00:56:08.680 whatever tomorrow you legalize something that I believe in strongly or

00:56:14.460 that benefits me okay right yeah and and would there be any evidence or arguments that would

00:56:20.540 make you less confident in your position no no because i believe in freedom of speech i believe

00:56:27.180 i mean like i may not agree with their opinion what they say but i i would say i i would want

00:56:35.180 to protect their right of speaking their mind i got a question yes sir but should we trust our

00:56:43.340 government to pass a law that's going to are you kidding me no i don't know i don't trust the

00:56:48.860 government i never trust the government no i i i was not born and raised in canada i was born under

00:56:56.380 risk in the country government spreads all kind of lies i i never ever ever believe in the government

00:57:04.620 since the other day i was born you think like how i was you know brought up no and that's why i

00:57:10.300 immigrate to canada because i believe i can you know have the freedom of speech then i learned

00:57:14.220 that we actually don't have freedom of speech you know after my 20s but wow you know it's

00:57:18.540 still much better than my old country so and if we just begin just uh yeah pose upon you for one

00:57:24.460 more claim if you could just go back to neutral sure sorry about that okay so no speech no no

00:57:35.900 instances of speech people should be able to say anything and it should never be

00:57:40.700 illegal any so where would you move where would you move on in terms of

00:57:46.580 your would you be the same what Matt would you be on no speech should be

00:57:52.180 illegal you would you would strongly agree with you and even saying

00:58:00.380 absolutely horrible things about various groups yeah even something like that yeah I mean like

00:58:08.360 like for the university yeah if like we are against Nazis yeah so if I spread like my

00:58:16.280 opinions about Nazis like fascism yeah the school can tell me you leave the campus because this is

00:58:24.200 the private property belongs to the university right but outside i can say whatever i want to

00:58:30.040 say as long as i'm not hurting anyone or acting on that right let's say i don't like you but that's

00:58:38.680 my opinion yeah but as long as i'm not hurting you right that's that that's what i believe in

00:58:45.400 because i'm like i i don't it's like you you don't have to look like me either right yeah

00:58:52.520 i have i got a good one for you can we can we do a neutral one sure can you go back to neutral i

00:58:56.760 got one for you uh so the claim is canada is a free country yeah so strongly agree so you need

00:59:05.960 the room yeah canada is a free country okay you slightly disagree yeah you said something about

00:59:15.960 when you were in your 20s you realized it wasn't as free so so why why do you slightly disagree that

00:59:20.760 canada is like we do not have all of those like rights like compared to the states right it's like

00:59:28.360 in canada there are still things you can't really say right there are there are their opinions you

00:59:33.000 you can't really, you know, profess.

00:59:36.200 If you do, you got canceled, right?

00:59:38.820 So, I mean, like, I can't say certain things.

00:59:42.800 And then that is constantly preventing me

00:59:44.660 from doing this interview,

00:59:46.360 because if you give this interview out,

00:59:48.060 I might got canceled.

00:59:49.460 I might not even get, you know, graduated here.

00:59:52.620 How am I going to go through my life?

00:59:54.920 Yeah.

00:59:55.760 Right, so, but I don't believe that a country

00:59:58.880 or society should be like that.

01:00:01.320 no one should be prosecuted by their opinion even though like you believe their opinion is wrong

01:00:07.080 see that's what exactly what happened in nazi germany by the day like it's probably about 80

01:00:12.200 percent of people think hater what's right yeah and anyone who opposed him was like no you're wrong

01:00:18.440 then you got get out there or be killed yeah now try to put yourself into their shoes so

01:00:24.760 So what do you think needs to change in Canada for you to move further towards it, agreeing

01:00:32.640 that it's a free country?

01:00:33.640 What would need to change?

01:00:34.640 I don't know.

01:00:35.640 Change the constitution.

01:00:36.640 There's really nothing much you can do.

01:00:37.960 There are various countries in the world, and Canada is what Canada is.

01:00:42.500 It's not the United States.

01:00:43.920 If you like the United States so much, you can move to the United States.

01:00:46.780 But I like Canada much better than the United States, other than the freedom of speech.

01:00:52.540 So, yeah, I don't, I mean, like, yep.

01:00:56.160 Awesome, awesome.

01:00:58.180 So I think, thank you so much.

01:00:59.780 No problem.

01:01:00.240 That was great.

01:01:00.600 Oh, yeah, I'm not going to get canceled by this.

01:01:03.520 We will see.

01:01:04.680 We will see.

01:01:05.320 I think it was pretty in the office.

01:01:07.280 Don't come to my class.

01:01:08.200 Right?

01:01:08.540 Thank you very much.

01:01:09.240 Thank you.

01:01:09.640 Don't come to my class.

01:01:10.940 Yeah, got canceled.

01:01:13.040 Okay.

01:01:13.700 Thank you so much.

01:01:14.320 Thanks a lot.

01:01:14.880 Appreciate it.

01:01:15.520 Okay, I think we're...

01:01:16.380 Total Chad.

01:01:17.140 Total Chad, bro.

01:01:18.320 I think we are, we've been doing about an hour or so.

01:01:21.000 Is that correct?

01:01:21.620 Or are we never...

01:01:22.080 you want to do a thought experiment let's go let's go uh you're okay being recorded yeah yeah for

01:01:30.320 sure amazing all right so what do you want to do the same one or do you yeah let's do the one you

01:01:34.000 started with okay um or we could do like the holocaust denial one that's a little bit good 0.74

01:01:41.040 holocaust yeah let's stick with the residential school one 0.83

01:01:45.120 so we're doing we're talking about the residential schools because of the

01:01:48.720 in gatineau right now there's a there's a special uh interlocutors talking about what's called

01:01:55.120 residential school denialism and we're trying to figure out um they're claiming that residential

01:02:01.520 school denialism should be illegal what is like denialism like what are they denying okay so

01:02:07.920 that's that's a good question like we're trying to figure that out um sean carlton who is a

01:02:13.120 professor from the university of manitoba says his definition of residential school denialism

01:02:19.680 is distorting facts about the residential schools so that reconciliation is impeded

01:02:28.960 and the colonial status quo is upheld that is his definition of rest so do you think that

01:02:35.600 that should be illegal should that they're arguing that should be illegal what's your

01:02:41.120 you strongly agree you strongly disagree you've heard of the residential school stuff have you

01:02:45.840 no i actually haven't that's why like i have no clue that's what i'm trying to ask i don't

01:02:49.600 even understand the definition that's going on is brock like a residential school because like

01:02:53.120 people live here no it was some for the indigenous children between 1870 and about

01:03:01.600 uh 1996 yeah indigenous children were in residential schools um to well it was a kind

01:03:11.280 of an assimilationist policy that existed to um well some say to erase their culture others say

01:03:19.440 it was for like did you ever you ever seen like all those like orange flags and it's like every

01:03:23.840 child matters and there's like the mass graves that they found of like the indigenous kids did

01:03:29.280 you ever hear about that type of stuff yeah yeah so in canadian history they're saying there's

01:03:36.560 these residential schools and uh they found a bunch of bodies in 2021 they say they claim that

01:03:42.960 they found a bunch of bodies and the sort of implication is these residential schools run by

01:03:48.480 like priests and pastors like catholic priests and pastors like genocided a bunch of native kids

01:03:54.320 like indigenous or like you know and uh now they want to pass legislation to say that

01:04:00.000 if you deny that it was genocide then it should be illegal yeah so

01:04:10.080 is like i don't support the genocide so like you guys tell me what side i should go

01:04:13.920 i don't know it's not whether you support the genocides whether if someone let's say

01:04:18.560 says no that wasn't genocide what happened there it was a bunch of there weren't in fact

01:04:23.200 any like there's no graves that have of murdered children that have that exist yeah like if someone

01:04:31.360 were to contest the history and say oh i don't know i don't think it was genocide i think it

01:04:34.720 like they got they got sick because it was like way back in the day should that person go to jail

01:04:39.200 for like disagreeing with the narrative no like they can disagree whatever they want but like

01:04:44.240 facts are facts right so like the police will tell us and people will tell us right but let's say

01:04:49.520 people deny the facts if they're denying the facts what's claimed to be the facts yeah should that

01:04:55.520 be should that be illegal the when people deny the facts about the residential schools um

01:05:03.280 no necessarily like the law i guess is above everybody like well that's what the law says

01:05:07.680 right so like if the law is like stating these things and there's a reason why there's in place

01:05:13.360 and i guess like not but like if they are false then like yeah might as well legalize them right

01:05:19.600 like might as well legalize schools right like the the schools like whatever they claim like

01:05:24.240 the private school or whatever right but but let's say there is a like a fact about um like

01:05:31.280 this what happened with kamloops indian residential school it was stated that the remains of 215

01:05:38.160 children had been found at that residential school that was claimed in 2021 there's no graves and

01:05:44.080 there's no children that were like actually found or like this is under this is a bit under dispute

01:05:49.280 but it's like contested right yeah like people are saying some people are saying that no that's

01:05:53.040 that's not the case other people are saying that it is but the people who are saying that it is

01:05:58.320 are saying that if you dispute that and say it's not a fact you are a residential school denialist

01:06:06.080 and that should be illegal but do you think that if you are disputing facts about no uh residential

01:06:12.880 school no you're any everyone's like can dispute whatever they want so would you like where would

01:06:17.520 you be because like there probably is some things and like i can see why they're saying that but

01:06:28.960 it's not the like correct approach that's saying like yeah it's 100 illegal okay so why why do you

01:06:34.720 think that making you know denying facts about the residential schools why do you think that

01:06:39.920 that shouldn't be illegal that's why right like it shouldn't be illegal because like you can deny

01:06:46.480 the facts and like you can do whatever but it's not like illegal according to the law is it like

01:06:51.440 uh well they're they're claiming that this should this should be they want to pass a law

01:06:56.560 no definitely not like in my opinion no and and and why is that why do you why do you not think

01:07:03.120 it should be made illegal because like the people that are disputing it they're not the ones that

01:07:07.280 created created the crime right so like they're not the ones that actually did the killings or

01:07:12.000 if they're like the so-called killings or the killings right we don't know or we do know which

01:07:16.240 is like a fact but like again they're disputing the fact right so therefore that's why like i

01:07:21.520 think i would like strongly or slightly disagree okay um so like they didn't do the wrongdoing

01:07:28.640 right so like the people that are disputing it like say if i want to dispute it right it's not

01:07:32.720 like i just found out about it right now today like the whole entire cause right from you guys

01:07:36.160 and see if i want to like dispute it doesn't mean that i like any i did anything wrong and i shouldn't

01:07:41.120 go to jail for it and i shouldn't be charged for that fact but you you would claim that disputing

01:07:46.320 these facts is not really doing something that's a criminal activity that should that is that your

01:07:53.600 position that yeah it's not a criminal activity you actually were the one who was engaged in yeah

01:07:58.000 100 like if it comes to fact if there's like a video evidence of like i don't know it probably

01:08:02.080 it wasn't video back then but like i don't know something like evidence let's say there was video

01:08:06.160 evidence of someone killing a kid yeah but then people are who would see that would say no that

01:08:11.600 was a fake video and no that didn't happen yeah but like there's like to a certain point right

01:08:16.000 like that that's for the court right like there's court cases going on all the time about this like

01:08:19.920 like sometimes you can use video evidence saying that like yeah you can see that the video this

01:08:24.720 person killed this person person a killed person b but there's sometimes where the court doesn't

01:08:29.040 allow some of these videos to enter for a certain reason right so that would be for them to agree

01:08:34.400 hypothetical yeah hypothetically like you could say anything so hypothetically we have a lot of

01:08:40.240 really really good evidence that um 215 the remains of 215 children um exist at the kamloops indian

01:08:48.320 residential school there's someone who's denying even though there is really good evidence there's

01:08:53.440 denial of that happening and should that be illegal that the fact that they deny that really

01:09:00.000 good evidence like that people died like like there's evidence that that these children died

01:09:06.240 and were buried in the canloops apple orchard this person is saying i don't i dispute those

01:09:11.840 that those kinds of claims i mean no it shouldn't be illegal like i understand that like yes like

01:09:17.840 there is facts like i'm on the whole side of like yes like you know it's wrong right but like there's

01:09:22.640 There's so many different type of people in the world, right?

01:09:24.640 There's people that are going to vote for Donald Trump.

01:09:26.640 There's people that are going to vote for Kamala Harris.

01:09:28.640 Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

01:09:30.640 Therefore, you can't just say it's for some person to dispute something.

01:09:34.640 It's illegal.

01:09:36.640 If I'm understanding you correctly, you're sort of making the argument that

01:09:40.640 disputing facts isn't really a matter that should be made illegal in Canada.

01:09:46.640 I agree.

01:09:48.640 Because there's all sorts of different facts.

01:09:50.640 there's this sort of bunch of evidence bunch of like things that's what like you know there's a

01:09:55.120 there's a judge and there's a jury for it to like you know come to a conclusion

01:09:59.040 and that's that's like what i agree with thank you very much i want to do a pop culture one real

01:10:04.080 quick are you familiar with the drake kendrick beef yeah so you strongly agree or disagree uh

01:10:11.920 the claim is drake won the beef between kendrick lamar and drake yeah i think drake wins yeah i

01:10:19.360 I think he won, yeah, like, whatever, yeah, Drake, I strongly agree over here, 100%, like,

01:10:25.880 And so what is this? What is this? I don't even know anything about this.

01:10:28.960 Just about, like, two rappers, and they started, like, dissing, they have, they have, like, diss tracks going back and forth,

01:10:35.980 and, like, it's about, like, stuff that happened previously, and, like, whatever, like, conflicts they have between each other.

01:10:41.260 Okay.

01:10:41.620 But I say Drake won, because Drake is, you know, like, the bigger man, like, he has, like, I don't know, there's no one that's above Drake,

01:10:48.300 and maybe you know kendrick had one good song but that's like that that was the one you know like

01:10:53.140 it blew up but like it didn't say anything in it and like if you listen to drake's like words that

01:10:58.020 he says in other songs like he's actually saying real stuff and not that he's just like so what is

01:11:01.560 the one is saying that they've got better songs than the other person is that what's this being

01:11:05.540 there's a lot of lore there's a lot of background it's uh it's a lot to break down okay because

01:11:13.560 Like, we don't know if Drake has a daughter, right?

01:11:16.460 That was the thing that hinges upon the whole thing.

01:11:19.360 That was the thing with his son, too, right?

01:11:21.120 No one knew he had a son for a while.

01:11:23.060 So then, like, when his son came out, maybe he does have a daughter.

01:11:26.220 Maybe we should ask, do you have time for another one?

01:11:28.300 Yeah, I guess.

01:11:28.580 One more? 1.00

01:11:29.240 Maybe we should do the Holocaust one. 0.99

01:11:31.100 Oh, yeah, Holocaust. 0.96

01:11:32.380 So, should deny, so the claim is, so go to neutral.

01:11:39.180 Denying the Holocaust should be illegal. 0.90

01:11:41.180 um like that one like okay like see there's people that are actually out here like that

01:11:48.320 are denying it right so like are they in jail no so like again like slightly disagree i agree

01:11:55.240 that like you know you shouldn't but should you be put in jail if you deny the holocaust

01:11:59.760 no like people joke about it people like how long how long where would you be on the agreement

01:12:05.540 uh like i'd like slightly or i'd disagree like i'm in the middle of both of them okay because

01:12:11.220 like people joke about it people like have like you know like i'm not saying that's correct but

01:12:15.780 like that's just like the society we live in right it's like joking about things that are

01:12:18.980 messed up is like in trend so like people joke about it right like they don't deserve to be

01:12:23.620 locked up for that and people also like have like what they want to say about it and people believe

01:12:28.740 in cultures that are on one-sided or biased so they also have their history right and so like

01:12:34.340 Is there any arguments or evidence that would make you move to a less disagreeable position? 0.88

01:12:42.600 Like you'd agree more that the Holocaust should be illegal? 0.90

01:12:45.600 Is there anything that could be presented to you? 0.94

01:12:47.160 Any argument that could be presented or evidence?

01:12:49.040 No, I just don't agree with the simple fact that just having an opinion, something should be illegal if you dispute it.

01:12:55.960 Forever, until life is done, people are going to dispute it until the world is over.

01:13:00.280 right like because people some person out of like a hundred or a thousand people ten people will

01:13:05.500 disagree so that's just how it is so i don't believe for having an opinion you should it

01:13:10.720 should be illegal but i don't obviously like support what happened right like you know what

01:13:16.000 i mean like i'm not standing on that side i'm just saying yeah people people should be able 0.62

01:13:21.100 to talk shit right like basically yeah like dude and you never be able to stop it right 0.94

01:13:24.940 there's twitter there's all these platforms that you can just say whatever you want so 0.99

01:13:28.020 Well, you can't deny the Holocaust.

01:13:30.560 Denying the Holocaust is illegal. 0.90

01:13:32.380 Yes, it is. 0.76

01:13:33.000 Just so you know.

01:13:34.180 It became a thing in 2022 in Canada.

01:13:37.160 But still, you can have an opinion that you don't think it should be illegal, even if it is illegal.

01:13:42.620 There's also another bill coming up that would be the end of free speech in Canada.

01:13:46.840 Well, it's illegal to deny it, and you could face it, you could be in, you know, legal trouble.

01:13:52.420 But we can talk about whether it should be illegal or not.

01:13:55.300 That's fine.

01:13:56.180 Appreciate your time, though.

01:13:57.040 Thanks a lot.

01:13:57.640 Thank you very much.

01:13:58.640 Thanks a lot.

01:13:59.640 I appreciate it.

01:14:00.640 What happened there?

01:14:01.640 I can't even see it on camera.

01:14:02.640 No.

01:14:03.640 Anyway, guys, I think we have had some interesting conversations with different students.

01:14:09.940 I think, Ron, the…

01:14:12.940 It's the residential thing.

01:14:15.940 Yeah.

01:14:16.940 Yeah.

01:14:17.940 So, we're doing Spectrum Student Epistemology, so we're trying to figure out what people

01:14:24.360 believe and why they believe what they do believe so the claim we've been kind of exploring with

01:14:29.900 people because of what's happening in Gatineau which is the special interlocutor there's a panel

01:14:37.100 which it was claimed that the residential school denialism should be illegal did you want to do

01:14:43.520 some I can't okay and it's gonna be okay and then you can't you can't straddle

01:14:53.480 the map you've got us you've got to pick your match what okay so the claim is

01:15:02.520 residential school denialism should be illegal

01:15:08.140 Fantastic, because we haven't had very many people who have taken that position yet, so we want to find out about this.

01:15:15.140 Okay, so, why do you think, why is it that you're on the agree mat about that?

01:15:23.140 I believe that it is a form of hate speech to deny that these terrible things happened.

01:15:28.140 It's like how in Germany, denying that the Holocaust happened is illegal, and the same with Australia, it's also illegal.

01:15:33.140 but I'm not on strongly agree because I do also acknowledge that freedom of

01:15:38.140 speech is a thing okay but I'm not a lawyer and not in politics so I can't

01:15:43.580 really give a proper solution to anything okay so would you argue then

01:15:47.760 that are you arguing just to make sure because I don't want to misunderstand

01:15:51.360 what your position is do you are is it your position that residential school

01:15:56.420 not denial denying that the abuse and all the things the terrible things that

01:16:00.600 happened that's a form of hate speech that that's your position okay and why

01:16:06.000 is it that you think that's hate speech because it actively harms the people if

01:16:11.580 you deny it then it's getting rid of their whole history that happened there

01:16:15.660 it's denying that these like I said terrible things happened that they were

01:16:20.220 harmed if you deny a bunch of people died this way it's ignoring the whole

01:16:27.960 part that happened to them okay and that is and that is you consider hate speech

01:16:33.540 to be when people deny harms that have happened to people is that what is that

01:16:39.600 what you sort of see well that's a part of it okay and what are there what other

01:16:43.560 things do you think actively wishing harm on somebody is another form of hate

01:16:47.100 speech like hate speech is this huge definite okay but do you think that when

01:16:51.000 people deny the harm that was done that is itself like has this terrible harm

01:17:01.140 that is caused them and generally if you did that with respect to anyone if you

01:17:05.220 had these you are causing this harm that would you would consider that to be hate

01:17:09.480 speech yes I did actually read up a bit on the thing so it in private it says

01:17:16.960 it's okay to do and that I acknowledge like we shouldn't be dictating one-on-one

01:17:20.520 conversations okay but in public like if you're doing a speech or something or

01:17:26.520 like this big influential person on the press or something you shouldn't really

01:17:30.060 be denying these things happen because they did okay and so are you familiar

01:17:33.960 with the Kamloops Indian Residential School case what happened in 2021 yes

01:17:41.140 I'm not too familiar with it mostly because it happened like I haven't read

01:17:46.180 up the news recently on it. So in 2021 it was claimed that the remains of 215 children had

01:17:51.440 been found in the apple orchard at Kamloops. In 2024 it was claimed that there were anomalies

01:17:59.300 on the GPR that were probable remains of children. So if there was someone who was writing things

01:18:07.400 saying they were denying that there were any remains of children that were existing at

01:18:13.900 cam moves would that be something that you would consider to be hate speech um i'd say i'm more

01:18:20.660 neutral on the topic part of that is due to my lack of knowledge on it but unlike with residential

01:18:27.280 schools we have clear and cut evidence that residential schools happen like yes we still

01:18:31.380 have survivors with those unmarked graves i'm not sure if there are well obviously there aren't

01:18:37.180 survivors but i'm not sure if somebody saw people putting children in there i'm not sure if we've

01:18:42.660 had like more than just what they found because there were those anomalies so I'm not sure okay

01:18:50.280 okay and in terms of movement like so from what I can tell from what you're saying people who deny

01:18:58.220 that the residential schools were harmful like that kind of thing saying that there was no abuse

01:19:02.760 that happened that sort of thing that's what you're considering to be resident and residential

01:19:08.180 school denialism so is there anything that would make you move towards the slightly agree more

01:19:15.580 towards the less strongly agree with the claim that residential school denialism should be

01:19:22.720 illegal is there any kind of evidence or arguments that could be presented to you that would make you

01:19:28.680 move in more towards the the disagree there is a freedom of speech argument okay that i do

01:19:34.840 understand and i do get because many people do don't want the government uh like monitoring

01:19:43.720 what they talk about okay but that's when i also look at other governments like i said germany

01:19:49.720 and australia where they make holocaust now illegal yes so you think that's kind of equivalent like

01:19:55.560 denying the residential schools has got quite a few similarities to denying the holocaust yes

01:20:01.080 and so the fact that we have Holocaust denial is illegal that would kind of

01:20:08.660 make sense then if you have Holocaust denial being illegal and the

01:20:12.860 residential schools denying the abuse and everything that happened in the

01:20:16.540 residential schools that would sort of my inference mean that the denying the

01:20:23.400 residential schools the abuse and everything also should be illegal yes so

01:20:27.900 kind of sets up a precedent perhaps about that yes any thoughts greg about uh uh more drilling

01:20:35.180 down on claims or anything like that um no i i appreciate you taking the time um i guess

01:20:45.740 well first of all did you know that uh holocaust denial is actually already illegal in canada as

01:20:50.380 well i did not know it was illegal yeah it is yeah i've been in 2020 so that's one of the

01:20:54.780 actually one of the big reasons given for why residential school denialism should be illegal

01:21:00.540 too because why would you have one group that was going to be um have all this kind of denial about

01:21:07.260 their history and what happened to them yet other groups it's okay to deny what they claim happened

01:21:13.100 to their situation historically yeah that's it so it's kind of an interesting kind of parallel

01:21:18.540 that's often brought up.

01:21:22.000 Do you think there should be...

01:21:24.120 So there's a bill called Bill C-63

01:21:26.040 that's going to, I think,

01:21:31.280 be the end of free speech in Canada

01:21:32.500 because it's going to really broaden

01:21:34.800 the definition of hate speech.

01:21:38.660 Do you think it should be legal...

01:21:42.200 Or, sorry, I guess the claim

01:21:43.680 to do it from this method,

01:21:44.820 uh it should be illegal to detest or vilify someone or a group of people

01:21:53.520 that's the claim it all depends on what's happening like if you're saying like an 1.00

01:22:01.720 indigenous person did something that was wrong that shouldn't be made illegal like hey they can

01:22:08.260 do wrong but if you're saying all indigenous people are terrible human beings and they should 0.55

01:22:14.880 all go away that could kind of be hate speech if you get what i mean sure sure so i'm gonna be a

01:22:22.180 stickler here because in this piece of legislation i haven't read it no no it's okay that's okay

01:22:27.520 that's why i've done all i've done the research to tell you to ask you about this um that's why

01:22:33.840 specifically asking detestation and vilification which could mean a number of things but that's why

01:22:40.160 the question is do you think detesting or vilifying a person or a group of people should be illegal

01:22:46.640 and we can talk it out you know whether you're slightly agree or slightly disagree based on their

01:22:51.200 protected characteristics yes right because you're detested and vilified all the time

01:22:57.120 that's okay because they're not they're detesting and vilifying well let's let our

01:23:01.040 you know I want to hear what you have to say about that or maybe you could walk

01:23:09.620 dramatically walk to one of the things first and then because that's when it

01:23:18.740 gets icky because if you're saying black people did something wrong what if 0.96

01:23:23.560 somebody takes that as you saying all black people did something wrong and 0.87

01:23:26.720 then you get arrested because that could be a problem that happens so that's when it gets that's

01:23:31.980 why i'm that's what i'm saying in the neutral is like because that's where it does get to be like

01:23:35.980 you said with freedom of speech so i'm not really sure on either side yeah yeah no i totally agree

01:23:42.640 because that's kind of why i started this project i started a website i'll leave you the card but

01:23:46.900 it's right now we have a very kind of specific line on most hate speech which is like you tell

01:23:53.420 like we should commit violence against these people like that that's the line

01:23:58.040 right now where you encourage violence you incite violence that seems like a

01:24:03.680 firm line of like encouraging people to commit crimes basically but once it gets

01:24:08.660 into the area even if it's to test and vilify like you know we don't want

01:24:12.260 people to test and vilify one another but it's like like you were kind of

01:24:15.740 saying it it opens it up to well if I said that person did something bad am I

01:24:20.780 vilifying them? Maybe kind of. I think it would need to be like a stronger definition of what it

01:24:26.520 means. Yeah well and you know they wrote a whole bunch of legislation on this and they try to do

01:24:32.920 that but at the end of the day it's still in my opinion it's blurring that line between what is

01:24:39.300 criminal behavior and what is just speech where maybe I'm hating on someone a little bit because

01:24:44.220 they did something bad so anyway that's my take on that but anyway i think we're coming to the end

01:24:55.900 of the uh you want to find out more you can go to sayfree speech that's yeah would you would you be

01:25:00.620 going to do one more i think that guy you gotta get going thank you so much for your time by the

01:25:05.180 way yeah sure all right so you're out of here that's great yeah okay you don't want to do this

01:25:09.980 one last guy? No, I gotta go. Okay. Yeah, yeah, me and you will do it. All right. Say goodbye to the live stream. Thank you. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Where do they go to see you? Uh, wokeacademy.info. I'm on Facebook and I'm on, uh, there's a Twitter account, uh, wokeacademy.info, uh, which is at wokeacademy. So I can see that. Anyway, that's been a very interesting, I think we got some interesting opinions. Yeah, not bad.

01:25:39.980 and it's been uh it's been a good day all right thanks a lot thanks a lot thanks a lot okay

01:25:45.900 that's gonna be it for us on the live stream um

01:25:51.580 that's i guess that's a wrap hey no problem no problem i mean maybe we could try to you know

01:25:56.860 talk to people about free speech for a bit what do you think

01:26:01.500 might be kind of fun um maybe we'll try that for a bit chat chat what do you guys think

01:26:09.980 Chat, chat, chat, what's up?

01:26:11.820 Chat, chat.

01:26:14.340 On the way.

01:26:15.960 Yeah, we could.

01:26:17.380 Hey, you guys want to talk about free speech?

01:26:20.040 It's like super fun, like viral man on the street video.

01:26:23.800 Totally cool, totally Chad.

01:26:26.580 I don't know.

01:26:27.420 What are you saying?

01:26:29.080 It entails us asking you questions just about politics or free speech.

01:26:37.980 Okay.

01:26:38.680 Yeah, no worries, no worries.

01:26:39.980 the youth the youth guys the youth the youth what do you think should we wrap it up should we keep

01:26:49.800 going or what let's go on the way and see if we can catch it okay okay cool that's fair enough

01:26:55.500 do you want to talk about free speech sir all right

01:26:58.560 all right so we're gonna go oh get the microphone derp

01:27:06.060 hey i'm gonna take this from you yeah oh yeah but also it's been a pleasure meeting you in person 0.99

01:27:16.980 yeah uh yeah i'm excited that interview we did was great yeah and that's unfortunate that woman

01:27:23.640 who came i was so tired i couldn't i just could not i could not really get real down on it and

01:27:29.300 if we got her to begin with that would have been fantastic um because she was doing like to find

01:27:35.460 out why people think the residential school denial is an important thing to try to figure out.

01:27:45.100 Did you explain to that guy? What guy? What guy you were talking to, he didn't seem to know what

01:27:51.360 residential school... Yeah, no, he didn't know much. He knew a lot about the Drake-Kendrick

01:27:58.480 beef. He didn't know anything about the... That's why I wanted to ask him, because I'm like, I have a

01:28:02.840 feeling we'll ask him about Kendrick and Drake and this guy will just be super

01:28:06.380 passionate about that. And then Francis was like, what are you talking about?

01:28:09.920 I'm like, what? What is that? I know I've heard daily about that.

01:28:14.240 But I mean, that's interesting that he doesn't have a clue what promote that other stuff.

01:28:17.960 I mean, that's the interesting thing about the modern era is like if you don't

01:28:23.300 watch certain, you know, people don't always watch TV, they watch their phones.

01:28:27.260 And if they're not on the algorithm where they're learning about like Canadian

01:28:29.960 politics and like residential schools you'll know that you're never going to

01:28:32.580 hear about it why would you hear about it

01:28:34.180 i think that it's quite interesting like if you come to um brock on orange

01:28:42.600 shirt day unlike unlike universities like

01:28:46.220 regina and alberta and stuff where you're you're in the west

01:28:49.120 if you come to brock on orange shirt day the only people wearing orange shirts

01:28:53.100 are administrators and i don't think anyone else is even

01:28:56.740 aware of it except this year it was a holiday so maybe they were aware of it but all right

01:29:04.180 um we're going to talk to some brock students any advice uh well i i think the way what you're doing

01:29:12.500 is like you have a very personable way of approaching people and they they'll feel it

01:29:17.860 they'll feel at ease when the way you're you're kind of oh thanks yeah no i think you're doing

01:29:22.820 a great job thank you yeah i think it's actually much easier for you guys to approach them than

01:29:29.460 old crusty professors yeah but we're two white men though so no we're two colonizers well i

01:29:37.060 actually think if you stay away from certain departments that this awareness of whiteness

01:29:44.340 and that sort of thing they're not even aware of it right so like if you talk about this stuff

01:29:48.980 outside of the university no one's heard of it but even within the university let's try to get that

01:29:53.460 guy people have okay hey there sir uh how you doing do you want to talk about free speech and

01:30:00.740 stuff i saw the flag on your hat just curious if you wanted to share an opinion sure we'd be

01:30:04.660 recording it that's all right with you sure oh sure can you can you hold both of these by chance

01:30:10.340 So I started a website called savefreespeech.ca, and we're collecting content for that.

01:30:19.460 We're filming a documentary.

01:30:20.440 We're trying to do some man-on-the-street stuff as well.

01:30:25.760 This is a new setup.

01:30:27.360 This is a new mic setup.

01:30:28.880 Bear with me.

01:30:29.760 What does this mean exactly?

01:30:32.100 I argue that it would be the end of free speech in Canada, because it basically broadens 0.99

01:30:37.240 the definition of hatred to mean detestation and vilification and you got the palestine flag they

01:30:43.240 would want to make um uh what what was it again something to do with genocide oh yeah calling to

01:30:51.400 genocide would be life imprisonment yeah yeah is that also the same bill that um would talk about

01:30:59.000 how mentioning palestine or having any support for sure is this the same uh bill that

01:31:07.000 tells you that you can't say what's happening in palestine is a genocide i mean so no is there a

01:31:15.480 bill specific to that i think there is a bill that uh broadens what anti-semitism means okay

01:31:23.560 so so there is in 20 in 2022 they uh slipped into the budget that holocaust denial is illegal so

01:31:31.240 So that's already illegal.

01:31:34.260 In terms of specific anti-Semitism, not that I'm aware of.

01:31:39.120 There might be like bills that have been tabled.

01:31:40.620 But Bill C-63 has been read in House of Commons twice.

01:31:46.380 And, you know, there's different factions.

01:31:48.260 I watched CJEA talk about it, which is the Canadian Institution for Jewish Affairs, I think.

01:31:53.000 And they were kind of thinking, hey, we could, you know, we could crack down on anti-Semitism with this bill if it passes.

01:31:58.160 They want it to pass.

01:32:00.180 So there's definitely a lot of implications because there's also Palestinian, sorry, there's like Muslim groups who are like,

01:32:04.920 oh, maybe we could use this bill to crack down on people who are Islamophobic as well.

01:32:09.580 So it's kind of going, like, people are kind of looking at this bill in both directions saying,

01:32:13.400 oh, we could use this against our political enemies in a way.

01:32:16.040 So it's kind of a mess.

01:32:17.080 How does this bill exactly affect, is this like online spaces only?

01:32:22.140 Because I heard that Bill C-63, right, was mainly online focused, right?

01:32:28.240 This guy knows.

01:32:28.740 So, you bring up a great question. It's branded as the Online Harms Act. So it implies that it would just affect online. But no, it's like all speech in general. It would redefine the definition of hatred in the criminal code. I know this is a lot I'm throwing at you.

01:32:47.080 But right now, sorry, they would redefine hatred to mean detestation and vilification.

01:32:55.200 So that would be illegal.

01:32:57.620 You could go to jail for up to five years.

01:32:59.460 That's saying it online or saying it in public.

01:33:02.820 And you could also sue anyone else for general hate speech.

01:33:06.740 Oh, there's a whole bunch of other things, yeah.

01:33:08.320 General hate speech.

01:33:09.320 Yeah, there's a whole bunch of other things.

01:33:10.660 Like in a human rights court, you could sue somebody else for a hate speech.

01:33:14.580 For a hate speech, eh?

01:33:15.480 i mean i feel like that's fine like if you if someone is clearly like doing hate speech at you

01:33:24.640 like i it's pretty rare that that happens nowadays anyways but if you got a whole mob of

01:33:29.680 let's just say people who don't agree with with our immigration system right now right if they're

01:33:37.180 go out and saying these bad things about the immigrants that are coming in here then yeah i

01:33:42.280 think that they should be prosecuted right because they're you're just not 1.00

01:33:46.660 really being helpful they're just being harmful they actually have like a like

01:33:51.580 a case to support their like hatred I guess I don't know I don't think that's

01:33:55.420 a very good way to put it but oh hate speech is just bad in general I don't

01:34:00.040 think you should go out there and thrown out hateful rhetoric and expect to not

01:34:05.140 be prosecuted I think that's fine honestly okay what are you guys trying

01:34:09.280 make like what so so like like what if um there's uh israel zionist right who says that i think

01:34:18.960 oh actually the leader of the conservative party of canada said iran is a genocidal regime and it

01:34:25.520 would be a gift to the world if israel bombed oran this is what the leader of the conservative party

01:34:31.520 said so i think that he should definitely be prosecuted especially if he doesn't have

01:34:36.560 have any evidence to back up his claims, right? Like if he's saying Iran should be, what,

01:34:42.700 is a genocidal state and Israel should bomb it? That's just, that's a wild accusation 0.85

01:34:47.880 to make. And it's just a wild statement to make in general. Like, I don't know. It's

01:34:53.920 just clear, you know, like what's happening right now in the world. Like if the people

01:34:57.860 who are perpetuating the violence is clearly one person, right? Israel and everyone who's 0.94

01:35:04.140 supporting israel simple as like if uh some of this guy conservative guy you're talking about

01:35:10.460 is tied to making these claims yeah i think he should be prosecuted yeah he's the leader of the

01:35:14.140 conservative party of canada yeah um what's up would you think it's hate speech um to say that

01:35:21.500 something like october 7th uh hamas's response to israel's genocide and occupation of gaza

01:35:29.100 do you think saying that that attack was justified that that should be hate speech

01:35:34.320 if someone is saying that the october 7th attack is justified should we consider that hate speech

01:35:40.120 i don't think so it's it's rooted in like it's a resistance hamas is a resistance like i'm

01:35:47.060 palestinian myself and it's been what over 75 76 now years of an open-air prison a lot of people

01:35:56.500 like to put it that way and it is that it's bordering on what is it uh concentration camps

01:36:02.620 at this point almost almost worse right right so but just to play devil's advocate i would say if

01:36:09.360 i was a zionist i would say but thousands of jews died that day people were raped there was hostages

01:36:14.680 so like you're you're justifying that so shouldn't should you not be persecuted for having that

01:36:20.500 opinion considering there's death well considering that my opinion is based on mostly fact i'd say

01:36:27.320 yes i would uh sympathize with the thousands of innocents that have died but making accusations

01:36:36.180 like this rape here or babies dying there there's these are just baseless accusations none of these

01:36:41.520 are based in fact um you can just go back to october 7th and see that yourself but no i don't

01:36:47.500 think that constitutes hate speech because just like i said it's it's it's a justified resistance

01:36:52.760 hamas is a justified resistance to what's happening in israel right but back to the iran example

01:36:57.240 zionists are saying that bombing iran is justified for whatever reasons they might have because of

01:37:03.340 you know whatever anti-semitism blah blah blah so i guess like we're kind of at an impasse here

01:37:08.380 because it's like who would decide who gets arrested for it's really there should be really

01:37:13.300 like uh i don't know if you would call it that but there should be like a governmental section

01:37:18.980 based off doing fact checking you know we're checking their sources like there's a lot of

01:37:24.020 media outlets here that are just yeah but for sake of argument what if they do create a board

01:37:29.700 of fact checkers in canada and they're all zionists well you know what i'm saying like

01:37:35.060 like just right right right i understand where you're coming with i mean yeah at that point it's 0.83

01:37:40.340 it's gone to shit pretty much hey like there's there's not much there's not much else to do like

01:37:45.540 i i just think there's a lot of misinformation going around and if there's nobody to keep it in 0.97

01:37:49.860 check and if those who keep it in check are also part of the you know misinformation sure right

01:37:56.100 it's just kind of but but what if like because your your kind of initial claim was hey we should

01:38:01.300 be um prosecuting people for hate speech and we kind of determined well it's subjective so what

01:38:07.620 What if we just kind of threw out that idea and thought like, you know what, maybe we should be allowed to kind of openly hate each other just to see, like, you know, to debate it out and see what's actually true between, you know, Zionists versus, you know, Hamas supporters type thing.

01:38:21.660 I mean, when it comes to like just hate in general, is it really a debate that's happening? Like you see all of these protesters and anti-protesters, right? They always just clash. There's no real...

01:38:32.660 They hate each other.

01:38:33.660 Yeah.

01:38:34.660 They hate each other.

01:38:35.660 Yeah.

01:38:36.660 There's nobody willing, well at least on the counter-protester side, from what I've

01:38:39.660 seen.

01:38:40.660 There's not a lot wanting to talk.

01:38:41.660 They just want to disrupt.

01:38:43.660 Let's take, for example, the protesters for Palestine.

01:38:47.660 In the U.S., we've seen many cases where the anti-protesters just disrupt with their

01:38:53.660 horns, with their breaking the barricades, stuff like that during the university protests.

01:38:59.660 So maybe focus on the group that's disrupting.

01:39:03.640 I would do the both sides thing too, though. 0.98

01:39:06.580 Because you'll be able to find assholes on both sides of this equation, I think. 0.98

01:39:10.400 Okay. 1.00

01:39:10.880 I'm not calling you an asshole. 1.00

01:39:11.940 I'm just saying. 1.00

01:39:12.280 Well, yeah, yeah.

01:39:12.940 I'm just saying.

01:39:15.340 Okay.

01:39:16.240 I mean.

01:39:17.760 I want to turn you into a free speech advocate.

01:39:20.460 That's my goal.

01:39:21.400 I'm not saying I'm not a free speech advocate or against it.

01:39:24.160 I just don't like hate speech.

01:39:25.240 That's all.

01:39:25.820 But you can't have free speech without hate speech, man.

01:39:28.300 I started this project, savefreespeech.ca, to warn people about Bill C-63, and fighting

01:39:34.680 for free speech doesn't happen with like, hey, we all like kittens, right?

01:39:38.060 Or like, hey, we all like pizza, like, you know, it's easy.

01:39:41.340 Like, the fight for free speech exists on what's your opinion on Israel-Palestine, you

01:39:45.960 know, what's your opinion on, you know, whatever it is, like transgender, LGBT, what's your

01:39:49.900 opinion on, you know, residential school, denialism stuff, like, that's where the fight

01:39:55.140 for free speech happens on the fringes because if you didn't know did you know

01:39:58.620 this or maybe I should I'll ask I'll do the spectrum street way this so you agree

01:40:04.620 or disagree with the statement I'm about to ask do you think are you know the

01:40:09.480 whole residential school stuff so do you think residential school denialism

01:40:14.400 should be a crime okay it's a head-scratcher

01:40:22.900 no I think I think it's it should be a crime because it's like I said it's

01:40:27.700 based on fact but again you say okay who determines the fact well at least when 0.87

01:40:33.860 it comes to residential schools those have been recorded and you know pretty

01:40:38.900 much we know a lot about them maybe we don't know enough so yeah I think I'd 1.00

01:40:44.560 put I'd categorize that yes as a crime because there's no good coming from

01:40:48.160 denying it like I don't know what kind of source you might be bringing to deny

01:40:52.560 residential schools but I mean this country was built on the same way as the

01:40:57.900 US was built on like you know colonialism taking over native lands and

01:41:01.900 such-and-such and having to you know integrate native people through these 0.96

01:41:06.840 residential schools I mean that's all kind of there I don't see how you could 1.00

01:41:11.180 deny something like that yeah so there's definitely horrible things that have

01:41:14.920 happened throughout history but like there are like even a few facts you

01:41:17.580 could bring up that sort of start to poke holes and like the oversimplified

01:41:21.420 like it was just colonizers it was just genociders like for example some some indigenous parents

01:41:28.140 advocated for residential schools and there's also like a lot of contention between these

01:41:36.300 marked unmarked graves because some of them are actually just old cemeteries where the stuff got

01:41:42.140 dismantled and also it used to be 215 now they're saying it's only 200.

01:41:46.780 No, like, you know, the sort of anomalies that they found on the GPR stuff.

01:41:55.020 And people are saying, well, like, why are we assuming, like, historians who have looked into this,

01:42:00.780 we were just with one Frances Widdowson, she actually got fired, potentially, for having this opinion.

01:42:06.560 But she was basically saying, like, why are we assuming that every anomaly is a dead kid

01:42:13.040 when this is where an apple orchard was and there's like you know history of them doing

01:42:18.300 things to the land here it could be anomalies based on that old stuff that's underground because 0.91

01:42:22.880 let's be clear here like the gpr stuff is like is ground penetrating radar where it's like a bunch

01:42:29.720 of like beep beep beep like finding things on the ground and they're like oh these anomalies

01:42:33.960 it must be a bunch of dead kids and so like you know historians are like uh like do we know

01:42:39.840 with that and it and i guess it kind of comes down to once again that's the argument for denial

01:42:45.900 right right yeah so i'd say sure let's say there's a lot of uh dead kids that aren't actually dead

01:42:54.460 kids let's assume that's the case well still there's still a lot of confirmed cases i would

01:42:59.300 like to assume of dead kids in residential schools or you know malpractice or how they

01:43:05.260 be treated the kids like there's a lot of uh what is it called not harm but uh just biographies

01:43:13.800 autobiographies of survivors from these residential schools and like i feel like those alone are

01:43:18.600 pretty good like uh what's the word here pretty good um literature yeah literature to go off of

01:43:26.260 what they used to do in residential schools hell there might be a residential school that did it

01:43:29.780 right i don't know yeah but bro like you're but you're saying it should be a crime though

01:43:34.820 to like disagree with a certain historical like piece of evidence like if there's two

01:43:41.300 like there's probably there's no real honestly like this this scenario right here there's no

01:43:46.020 real benefit to denying because there's still the harm that happened like okay like you're

01:43:51.620 you're saying that there might have been errors with this machine uh giving us a margin of like

01:43:58.260 200 300 right there's still like the rest of them okay so i i got a good one for you

01:44:05.540 holocaust denial is already illegal in canada now they're presenting this is why i asked you

01:44:10.900 the question now they're presenting um residential school denialism to be also illegal and the guy

01:44:17.940 passing bill c63 in the house of commons the other day he said this october 7th denialism

01:44:24.420 i.e if you if you deny the events of october 7th in some way um then you could also go to jail for

01:44:34.160 that okay that's fair i mean i don't think anyone would deny what happened on october 7th right what

01:44:39.320 happened was the resistance fighter planned an attack on israel sure yes okay maybe here they

01:44:45.840 might see that as illegal because it's you know whatever their interest to be aligned with israeli

01:44:51.380 politics or what have you but what if you like what if part of because these kind of terms

01:44:56.900 denialism are quite open to interpretation like if you were to kind of break down what holocaust

01:45:01.940 denialism is it's not like one clear thing it's like a variety of different things same thing

01:45:06.740 with residential school denialism like what specifically is it what piece of evidence did

01:45:11.380 you question or disagree with uh and it would probably be the same for october 7th so like if

01:45:16.100 if you don't agree to certain tenets of uh like the history of october 7th then that that could

01:45:23.620 potentially be a crime or at least the fact that they're using denialism again with october 7th

01:45:28.180 kind of invokes this kind of idea okay it looks like they might try to uh create legislation so

01:45:34.340 you can only say specific things and hold certain opinions about a historical event condoning or

01:45:41.620 justifying would also be illegal with this oh right yeah yeah yes that's i missed that part

01:45:48.020 yeah i'm pretty sure that's part of the holocaust without like if you condone it

01:45:52.420 so if you condoned october 7th being like a palestinian supporter that would also be illegal 0.90

01:45:59.460 yeah i mean i can see how they would pass this law just based off of how they've already passed

01:46:06.500 the other laws but then again it's just this law in specific the one with October 7 it's just their

01:46:13.460 what is it their perspective on it is just objectively wrong right if they were to do that

01:46:20.420 you'd be going to jail though well I guess I'm going to jail I mean

01:46:26.500 I don't know what to tell you I don't know what to tell you like it's uh it's not a good 0.98

01:46:32.180 bill to pass but again i can understand why they would you know put people in jail for holocaust

01:46:38.420 denial or uh residential school denial i wouldn't understand it for that one right are you saying

01:46:43.300 bill 36 would apply to all this or these different bills um these are different bills but spiel c63

01:46:52.260 is like a huge basket ah yes it's just hatred you go to jail kind of yeah yeah it's a very broad

01:46:58.740 definition of hatred and uh you can also um they could target someone and say if i think that

01:47:06.660 person i think that you're gonna say something hateful in the future uh so you should go on house

01:47:12.580 arrest interesting so even if you didn't do anything illegal so just based off of suspicion

01:47:18.580 i could see your like shake of our posts and be like i think this guy's gonna be troubling you

01:47:23.700 You know, be in trouble, yeah.

01:47:26.180 Oof.

01:47:27.740 Yeah, I mean, that's pretty dangerous as a bill in itself.

01:47:32.980 What are their motivations for having this bill?

01:47:35.160 Do you have an idea?

01:47:36.380 Power.

01:47:37.060 Power, power.

01:47:37.560 That's my guess, power.

01:47:39.720 There's got to be more to it.

01:47:40.900 Like, there's got to be some sort of protections they're doing here against or for someone, right?

01:47:46.820 It can't be just for power.

01:47:48.920 Well, I mean, let's play it out.

01:47:51.020 Like, you're a Palestine supporter, I'm guessing.

01:47:52.960 you got the thing on let's say um they do pass an october 7th denialism law and essentially

01:48:02.720 they outlaw any sort of sympathy towards hamas right um you know would you would you why do

01:48:09.840 you think they would be doing that why do you think they would be passing a law do you think

01:48:13.920 it's because it's well intended no why do you think it would be definitely not they're just

01:48:18.720 trying to protect their uh what is it here their uh their interests right because they're allied

01:48:26.640 they're very allied with the us and the israel right so it is yeah i guess you could say it is

01:48:32.480 for power pretty much you just want to silence anyone who's uh raising their voice for the right

01:48:37.760 thing yeah so with with that in mind this sort of this whole sentiment of like we need to stop hate

01:48:43.440 speech, do you still think it's all well-intended?

01:48:52.560 Maybe not so much in this case, right, in the case of Palestine-Israel, just because

01:48:56.500 obviously I'm biased.

01:48:57.600 I see it as the right thing to do when you raise your voice for Palestine.

01:49:01.720 Sure. 0.95

01:49:02.720 And if the tables were turned, you would probably agree with it. 0.90

01:49:06.320 If I was like a supporter of Israel? 0.99

01:49:07.820 No, if, yeah, like the law was to outlaw Zionism. 0.92

01:49:11.880 Oh, 100%. 0.99

01:49:12.880 Right.

01:49:13.880 Yeah, 100%.

01:49:14.880 Absolutely.

01:49:15.880 Like, absolutely.

01:49:16.880 100%.

01:49:17.880 Yeah, why not?

01:49:19.880 Like, 100%.

01:49:20.880 That would be well-intended.

01:49:21.880 That would be...

01:49:22.880 That would be well-intended, yeah. 0.99

01:49:23.880 I think that's maybe what C-36 is going for.

01:49:26.880 But since you mentioned that they might be bringing out a new bill that maybe would outlaw...

01:49:32.880 Is that a hypothetical or is that something they were thinking of?

01:49:34.880 So, the potential of using Bill C-63 in different directions of, like, different political factions,

01:49:40.880 like pro-Hamas people versus pro-Zionist people,

01:49:43.880 they could try to use this bill against each other.

01:49:45.880 Absolutely.

01:49:46.880 We're seeing that the guy who introduced it,

01:49:48.880 who is also, I believe, the Attorney General,

01:49:51.880 he was condemning October 7th denialism.

01:49:56.880 So that clearly shows that this is something that he,

01:49:59.880 that October 7th denialism is something

01:50:03.880 he would use this law against.

01:50:05.880 Yeah, I mean, what are you going to do?

01:50:08.880 you suspect in bad apples all the time i mean they were well intentioned with it with the past 0.57

01:50:14.000 two cases you just gave me like the holocaust denial the residential school denial even if

01:50:18.680 they found like there was some sort of discrepancy in the numbers i still think it's very well

01:50:23.080 intentioned like there's no reason to deny these things there's no like goal and to that thing so

01:50:28.720 i just gotta ask before you go i appreciate your time um what about like the flip side of your

01:50:33.600 perspective which is like we must protect the first amendment like what we don't have we don't

01:50:38.580 have a constitution first amendment but like you know what would you say to somebody like that

01:50:42.480 who's like well what about the first amendment like we must have protected at all costs

01:50:45.960 things change like honest to god like what do you mean like everything in society progresses

01:50:53.480 it's in exchange laws change norms change it's a matter of time like these things change like the

01:50:58.240 same with the u.s and their gun laws like it's still it's still wild to me that it's uh it's a

01:51:03.520 constitutional uh what's it called right to own a gun even though like the highest uh what do you

01:51:10.220 call them gun violence is in republican states kind of thing right mass shootings always in

01:51:15.060 republican states because you can easily get a weapon right something like that so it's just

01:51:19.700 times change and maybe these things are better we haven't tried them yet maybe these things are 1.00

01:51:24.100 worse we don't know but uh fuck the constitution man who gives a shit things change yeah but you 0.99

01:51:32.280 you support a second amendment for palestinians to have firearms no no i don't support i don't 0.99

01:51:38.200 support anyone for having a right for firearms maybe you know what here's this one the only 0.96

01:51:42.440 people who should own firearms are women dog that's it just women just women okay what's why 0.95

01:51:49.400 man imagine walking around the streets at night as a as a woman anywhere it's terrifying you know 1.00

01:51:55.800 That's why I think you should be the only person with a gun. 1.00

01:51:59.060 Respectfully, though, like, some of these bitches be crazy. 1.00

01:52:02.360 You want to give them all guns? 1.00

01:52:03.480 Fuck yeah. 1.00

01:52:04.140 I don't care. 1.00

01:52:05.180 Give all crazy bitches guns. 1.00

01:52:06.240 I don't care. 1.00

01:52:07.220 Fuck it. 1.00

01:52:07.420 It's better than having a crazy motherfucker with a gun. 1.00

01:52:10.080 Honest to God. 1.00

01:52:10.940 She might kill her ex or something. 1.00

01:52:12.640 I don't fucking care. 1.00

01:52:13.360 Fuck him. 1.00

01:52:13.780 Good riddance. 1.00

01:52:14.400 A guy might go shoot up a school, man. 0.95

01:52:16.200 What if it's a woman that identifies as a man? 0.99

01:52:19.000 Should they be allowed to have a gun? 0.95

01:52:20.320 That's a great question.

01:52:22.060 No. 1.00

01:52:23.500 She's not a woman anymore. 1.00

01:52:25.800 That's also considered hate speech that's discriminating against somebody for their gender identity. 0.98

01:52:32.800 Oh no, they're a man now. How am I discriminating?

01:52:35.800 But they're biologically a woman. 1.00

01:52:37.800 Well, still, they're a man now, so it doesn't matter. 0.99

01:52:40.800 So a trans woman should be able to have a gun now? 0.99

01:52:43.800 Yes. 0.99

01:52:44.800 Yes, okay.

01:52:45.800 Absolutely. Because they're always going to be the ones targeted more.

01:52:48.800 Sometimes discriminating against people and their sex is a good thing. 1.00

01:52:54.800 discriminating people under sex no i don't think so but you just said that women should have guns 0.90

01:52:59.360 and men shouldn't oh yeah so you're saying that like you know oh okay you're saying okay okay

01:53:05.040 it's reverse sexism i guess you could call it yeah that's true okay you got me there but uh yeah 0.96

01:53:09.840 fucking yeah yeah there's a lot of things here that discriminate off of straight up man listen 0.99

01:53:14.560 straight up there's a lot of things that uh systemically discriminate women in general 1.00

01:53:18.720 yeah right you're talking about wage gaps you're talking about correcting access yeah 1.00

01:53:22.880 Fuck it, man. Just give him guns, man. 1.00

01:53:24.780 I don't care. Give all the white bitches guns. 1.00

01:53:27.800 Thanks for your time. 1.00

01:53:29.380 I totally think you're a little nuts, 0.95

01:53:30.960 but no worries. 0.99

01:53:32.960 Have a good one. Where can I

01:53:34.580 find this content? I got the

01:53:36.700 card. Oh, I gave you the card? Yeah.

01:53:39.540 Look me up. My name is Greg Wycliffe.

01:53:41.280 Is he just on YouTube or something?

01:53:42.680 Yeah, YouTube. Yeah. Okay. This is going to be

01:53:44.740 a fun little match. Yeah, for sure, man.

01:53:46.680 Peace out.

01:53:47.200 Peace out.

01:53:50.240 I

01:53:50.600 I totally respect the guy's confidence of like, yeah, you think it's crazy?

01:53:55.680 Things change, bro.

01:53:57.020 You know, we're going to jail.

01:53:58.480 And I'm like, you know, that means you would go to jail.

01:54:02.720 You know, that means that you would go to jail.

01:54:05.200 And he's like, yeah, I'll be in jail.

01:54:09.460 I respect the confidence.

01:54:11.940 I've been like, that's my belief.

01:54:13.440 I'm not even going to explain myself.

01:54:15.480 That's my belief.

01:54:16.220 um i say we try to get one more and then or should we just end on that i feel like we can't top that

01:54:25.540 we can't top that can we we're gonna end the stream good idea good call uh thanks for tuning

01:54:30.000 in guys we just filmed an amazing um interview with francis widdowson it was unreal we're making

01:54:38.480 this documentary to call out the smear merchants to call out antifa who are trying to end free

01:54:43.640 speech in canada to support it go to give send go.com slash save free speech mods put a link

01:54:49.880 in the chat if you don't mind um but yeah and if you want to learn more about the project or about

01:54:55.380 what we're doing you can go to save free speech.ca and uh click on the donate link but if you if you

01:55:03.380 want to support me or my work in general go to give send go.com slash save free speech donate

01:55:08.140 to the documentary it's going to be a big one it's going to be an awesome one thanks for tuning in

01:55:12.440 and yeah we will talk to you soon we'll talk to you soon let's walk out towards the statue

01:55:19.240 while we end it

01:55:21.560 look at this colonialist statue look at that

01:55:33.480 my lord thanks for tuning in guys

01:55:42.440 You

Greg Wycliffe - October 31, 2024

Live Brock U Frances Widdowson - Residential School Denialism!

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