Human Events Daily with Jack Posobiec - August 04, 2025


Blowback： The Untold Story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City Bombing

Hosted by
Jack Posobiec
Mentioned
Timothy McVeigh Jesse Trinidou Margaret Roberts Kenneth Trenadue John Yoo Terry Nichols Joni Matthews Richard Lee Guthrie Whitmer Patriot Conspiracy Kathy Sanders Jack Prasovic Jack DeSobis David Paul Hammer Jack Kosovic Blowback Waco Martin Luther King Ghislaine Maxwell Janie Coverdale and 12 more
THOUGHTCRIME Ep. 93 — Charlie On South Park？ Sydney Sweeney's Great Jeans？ Making Poland Great Again and Subpoenas Issued For the Clintons Over Jeffrey Epstein

Episode Stats


Length

47 minutes

Words per minute

123.82

Word count

5,925

Sentence count

382

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

On April 19th, 1995, Timothy McVeigh, an American Gulf War veteran, shocked America when he committed what was at that time the most devastating terrorist attack on American soil. A lone wolf, fueled by rage and racism, took it upon himself to blow up a federal building.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
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00:00:25.780 The Poso Daily Brief.
00:00:30.000 This is what happens when the fourth turning meets fifth generation warfare.
00:00:40.720 A commentator, international social media sensation, and former Navy intelligence veteran.
00:00:47.260 This is Human Events with your host, Jack Poso.
00:00:50.340 Christ is king.
00:00:53.020 And good morning, everyone.
00:00:54.300 I'm Matt Lauer in New York, and we do have a special report from NBC News.
00:00:57.260 There has been a massive explosion at a federal building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
00:01:01.960 It happened just a short time ago.
00:01:03.460 A large portion of that building has collapsed.
00:01:06.180 The AP Murrah Federal Building, that's the correct name of it.
00:01:10.080 We're now told it is a complex in downtown Oklahoma City, housing more than 500 workers.
00:01:15.120 How many civilians were there doing business at the time?
00:01:17.700 We don't know for sure.
00:01:18.780 There has been considerable loss of life, including the deaths of more than one dozen young children
00:01:24.440 at a daycare center.
00:01:26.260 It just kept falling.
00:01:27.460 It was a horrible noise.
00:01:30.740 Horrible noise.
00:01:33.140 On April 19, 1995, Timothy McVeigh, an American Gulf War veteran, shocked America when he committed
00:01:40.960 what was at that time the most devastating terrorist attack on American soil.
00:01:45.340 Debris, part of the building has been blown away.
00:01:49.780 We're getting reports of numerous fatalities.
00:01:51.880 Hard to believe we are looking at our own backyard.
00:01:55.480 Leaving 168 people dead and hundreds more injured.
00:02:00.320 The first lady we found, she grabbed me by the collar and said, 1.00
00:02:04.480 Young man, there's a daycare center on the second floor.
00:02:08.300 You've got to get up there and get those babies. 1.00
00:02:11.300 The blast destroyed nearly half of the building, collapsing its entire north wall.
00:02:20.880 It also left a 16-block radius of destruction.
00:02:25.260 25 buildings were completely destroyed.
00:02:28.620 850 people were injured, many in the surrounding area.
00:02:33.280 Things flash before you, your children, your loved ones, whether you're going to get to see
00:02:37.860 them again.
00:02:38.400 More than 200 FBI agents are now involved in a massive manhunt for the bomber.
00:02:45.120 What is so evil in someone's heart that would make them do this?
00:02:56.340 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard for a very special edition today of Human Events Daily
00:03:02.440 on Real America's Voice.
00:03:05.860 This is blowback.
00:03:08.400 The untold story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City bombing.
00:03:15.380 I want to take you back to the 1990s.
00:03:17.700 And for some of you, you may never have heard the story at all.
00:03:20.620 But believe it or not, in the 1990s, the FBI, the federal agencies, the intelligence community,
00:03:29.420 the national security apparatus, the government, was seen as sacrosanct.
00:03:35.220 Putting an FBI agent on the stand was all you needed for a conviction at trial, because
00:03:41.360 everyone believed the word of the FBI as gospel truth.
00:03:45.980 And yet, over the years, that's changed.
00:03:49.160 And believe me, I know.
00:03:52.180 I was there as a member of the intelligence community as well.
00:03:56.800 I've worked with the FBI.
00:03:57.860 I've worked with every three-letter agency you can think of.
00:04:00.220 But we've learned something, and I think we've come to a different place as a country and
00:04:06.600 as a society regarding the power of these agencies and the things that happen behind closed doors.
00:04:13.620 For years, the official story of the Oklahoma City bombing has been etched into stone.
00:04:19.760 Timothy McVeigh, a lone wolf, fueled by rage and racism, took it upon himself to blow up a federal building.
00:04:27.140 End of story.
00:04:28.080 Case closed.
00:04:29.200 But what if I told you that's not the full picture?
00:04:32.400 A new book is making waves.
00:04:35.040 Blowback by Margaret Roberts.
00:04:37.360 And it's not fiction.
00:04:38.800 It lays out piece by piece a staggering case.
00:04:42.800 The Oklahoma City bombing may not have been a simple act of domestic terrorism,
00:04:47.440 but the tragic result of an FBI entrapment operation gone horribly wrong.
00:04:54.000 We've learned a lot in the last 10 years, haven't we?
00:04:56.760 From the Whitmer kidnapping plot, where half the crew turned out to be FBI informants,
00:05:00.880 revelations about federal involvement on January 6th,
00:05:03.740 to internal whistleblowers exposing corruption, censorship, political targeting,
00:05:07.940 the American people are waking up.
00:05:10.420 And the idea that the FBI might have had advanced knowledge,
00:05:14.240 that informants were involved with McVeigh or Nichols,
00:05:17.780 and that key evidence was buried.
00:05:20.000 10 years ago, that was unthinkable.
00:05:22.680 Today, it's not just plausible, it's worth investigating.
00:05:26.360 And this book doesn't ask you to take its word for it.
00:05:30.460 It shows you declassified memos, redacted interview notes, internal communications,
00:05:37.400 the media ignored, and it takes you right into actual death row interviews.
00:05:43.760 And once you see it, you can't unsee it.
00:05:48.180 America is ready now.
00:05:50.600 Ready to ask the hard questions.
00:05:52.440 Ready to revisit one of the darkest days in our history with clear eyes.
00:05:56.640 Not to excuse it, but to understand what really happened.
00:06:01.700 And to find out if we have been lied to for so long.
00:06:05.980 The victims deserve clarity.
00:06:09.400 And in fact, many of the families of the victims of this horrific act
00:06:17.320 are involved in pushing for these answers as well.
00:06:22.220 I've been talking about this on social media,
00:06:24.360 and I've been getting pushback already from federal agents
00:06:27.460 and former federal agents who were involved in this.
00:06:29.780 But I'm not going to stop.
00:06:31.300 And neither should you.
00:06:32.620 And neither did the author of this book, Margaret Roberts.
00:06:36.660 Because it's time for all of America to ask these questions
00:06:40.280 and to find out the truth.
00:06:41.860 Because the victims deserve that.
00:06:44.440 The families deserve that.
00:06:46.640 And the country deserves that.
00:06:48.620 Because if we don't face the truth, no matter how ugly,
00:06:52.140 it's going to happen again.
00:06:54.260 Maybe it already has.
00:06:57.180 We'll be right back.
00:06:58.320 Jack Posobiec, Real America's Voice.
00:07:00.800 The untold story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City bombing.
00:07:18.700 Nothing will stand in our way.
00:07:21.060 And our golden age has just begun.
00:07:23.420 This is Human Events with Jack Posobiec.
00:07:25.180 Now it's time for everyone to understand what America First truly means.
00:07:29.660 Welcome to the second American revolution.
00:07:36.120 All right.
00:07:36.880 Jack Posobiec back live here.
00:07:38.640 Human Events daily.
00:07:40.280 Real America's Voice.
00:07:41.820 Washington, D.C.
00:07:43.000 We're taking a day, a special day, to go through this new book.
00:07:47.520 And we're devoting the entire show to it because it's that important.
00:07:50.920 The book is Blowback, the untold story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City bombing.
00:07:56.320 And we have with us today, she's so gracious to spend the entire hour with us, Margaret
00:08:00.700 Roberts, the author and also the former news director of America's Most Wanted.
00:08:06.160 Margaret, how are you?
00:08:08.020 Great to be with you, Jack.
00:08:09.600 Thanks.
00:08:10.040 Well, and I have to say thank you for putting together this book.
00:08:15.520 And even so, I've finished the book.
00:08:17.380 We had you on briefly a couple of days ago.
00:08:20.280 And I said, I have to get the book immediately.
00:08:22.920 I got it.
00:08:24.560 I downloaded it.
00:08:25.600 I couldn't put it down.
00:08:27.220 And I didn't realize that you actually play a role in the book itself in a number of these
00:08:33.680 interviews, working as a paralegal.
00:08:36.500 Tell us a little bit about that as your specific role in uncovering this information.
00:08:45.600 Sure.
00:08:46.100 Well, I got onto the case 10 years after the Oklahoma City bombing, though, like millions
00:08:57.900 of Americans, I had witnessed the atrocity and the devastation of that day.
00:09:05.080 But it wasn't until 10 years later, as I was prowling around for my old friends at America's
00:09:14.160 Most Wanted, where I had been the news director, thinking about an anniversary piece on the mystery
00:09:23.940 man of the Oklahoma City bombing, known only as John Doe II, one of the great mysteries of
00:09:32.400 American crime, he rode next to Timothy McVeigh in the bomb truck.
00:09:38.740 He was seen by 24 witnesses.
00:09:42.760 And yet he vanished into thin air.
00:09:46.080 So I was looking into that, Jack.
00:09:48.880 And I got a phone call from a victim in Oklahoma City, a survivor, a grandmother who lost two
00:09:59.540 babies in that daycare center, slaughtered there that day.
00:10:06.300 And 10 years after the bombing, having attended two trials, she was convinced that the government
00:10:17.060 was not telling the truth about what really happened.
00:10:21.520 And this idea, then, that the victims, and this is something because for a lot of people
00:10:29.900 saying, oh, how can you, how can you reopen this?
00:10:32.140 And that I think it's so important for people to understand that there are victim families
00:10:36.740 that have reached out.
00:10:38.460 And they appear, by the way, every step of the way because of the access that they have
00:10:42.680 to information that they've discovered.
00:10:45.080 They've gotten through discovery or that they've gotten in through various cases or just information
00:10:49.640 they have because, of course, the victims' families are directly related to many of
00:10:53.740 the eyewitnesses in this case, that they are the ones who have been demanding answers
00:10:57.440 for 30 years.
00:10:58.480 And this year, of course, is the 30-year anniversary.
00:11:01.560 That's absolutely right.
00:11:04.000 There were Kathy, now Kathy Sanders and her husband, Glenn Wilburn, in right after the bombing
00:11:13.720 and for the next two years, were pivotal in unearthing hard evidence about the bombing
00:11:22.500 that no one, including the FBI, was turning up.
00:11:27.100 And they did so because they just had a burning desire to know the truth about what happened
00:11:35.160 to their two grandchildren also slaughtered in that daycare center.
00:11:40.480 And it's impossible to say no when someone asks you a question like that, when someone
00:11:49.120 comes to you and says, I need to know the truth about what happened.
00:11:52.020 I'm a dad.
00:11:52.780 I've got two little boys.
00:11:53.880 And so reading through this, it's something you think about in this day and age ever since
00:11:59.320 then that whenever you drop them off at school or at daycare, you never really know.
00:12:04.520 It is.
00:12:05.480 It is impossible to say no, Jack.
00:12:08.080 And I was sitting in my writer's studio in Los Angeles when the phone rang and Janie Coverdale,
00:12:15.840 the grandmother, barely introduced herself and just said, we need your help out here.
00:12:22.240 Before I knew it, I was on a plane to Oklahoma City as if I was still the news director of
00:12:29.720 America's Most Wanted, but I wasn't.
00:12:31.660 It was just me on that plane.
00:12:33.420 Mike, so we know the official story.
00:12:38.860 The official story, you know, it's Timothy McVeigh.
00:12:42.680 You know, Terry Nichols kind of gets involved, but then pulls out.
00:12:45.880 He gets picked up later in Kansas.
00:12:48.860 Where was it for you that that official story and, you know, of course, you're hearing this
00:12:53.560 from all the victim families.
00:12:54.980 Where was it for you that some cracks started to appear in that official narrative?
00:13:01.520 Well.
00:13:02.200 Well, at the very beginning, it was the first year of the investigation.
00:13:11.420 Again, long before I became actively involved in the case, I was a news junkie and a witness,
00:13:22.660 a citizen witness like millions of Americans, so shocked about what I saw that day, the agony,
00:13:31.660 the devastation, the injury on April 19, 1995.
00:13:37.020 But I had this other perspective, which was that I had been the news director of America's
00:13:43.660 Most Wanted.
00:13:44.780 And I had worked hand in glove with the FBI.
00:13:48.700 I got as close to the high profile manhunt stories as any journalist could.
00:13:55.820 So I looked at the scene and the early coverage of the bombing and almost immediately red flags
00:14:04.240 went up.
00:14:05.620 On the one hand, I was wishing for a minute that I was back at America's Most Wanted and
00:14:11.080 I could push the story.
00:14:13.500 But on the other hand, I was seeing cracks in this narrative almost immediately.
00:14:21.580 These, the 24 eyewitnesses to the bombing in Oklahoma City that day on the bombing run
00:14:30.300 as Timothy McVeigh delivered and detonated that bomb are absolutely critical because they
00:14:37.300 saw not just Timothy McVeigh, but they saw the man never identified who rode next to him in
00:14:46.500 the bomb truck.
00:14:47.320 So that was a big red flag for a story that was heading for, this was lone wolf terror by
00:14:55.920 Timothy McVeigh.
00:14:57.200 He built the bomb and he delivered it by himself.
00:15:00.960 That's what prosecutors would tell the jury.
00:15:05.060 And that's what would bury Timothy McVeigh.
00:15:09.220 Meanwhile, top journalists were reporting that the FBI had collected surveillance videotape
00:15:19.520 of that moment, the delivery of the bomb truck.
00:15:22.560 They had McVeigh and his never identified accomplice on videotape, which the American public has
00:15:31.220 never been allowed to see.
00:15:33.760 And thirdly, in that first sequence of the investigation, a grand juror on the McVeigh
00:15:42.260 grand jury was so distressed by what he saw inside that jury that he went rogue.
00:15:51.140 He started leaking to the Daily Oklahoman and eventually wrote a letter to the judge accusing
00:15:59.760 federal prosecutors of rigging that grand jury and specifically because they were hiding the
00:16:08.860 identity of John Doe too.
00:16:11.640 So those were enormous cracks in the case.
00:16:14.340 And if I could add one more, which is just kind of an incredible X-Files moment, recovery
00:16:23.180 workers brought a severed human leg out of the rubble of the Mura building that was never
00:16:33.480 connected to any of the bombing victims.
00:16:36.980 So there was someone else out there, and experts would later tell Timothy McVeigh's defense team
00:16:47.540 that in all likelihood, or very possibly, this leg belonged to one of the bombers, again,
00:16:56.180 completely defying the idea of lone wolf terror.
00:17:00.640 So this, and this really becomes, I think, the backbone of all of this, where, and it just, it blows up the
00:17:10.120 official narrative right on its head to say, wait a minute, someone else was in the truck, a John Doe too,
00:17:18.600 who, by the way, and for folks who don't know, this was not Terry Nichols.
00:17:22.080 Terry Nichols was not even in Oklahoma City.
00:17:24.860 So I know in the public mind, people think, oh, we know who his, we know who his co-conspirator was.
00:17:31.040 It was Terry Nichols.
00:17:31.720 This is not him.
00:17:32.900 So this is someone who was in the truck with him that day, who was originally reported by eyewitnesses.
00:17:40.100 There was a sketch.
00:17:41.280 There was a manhunt, which, by the way, in your original capacity at America's Most Wanted,
00:17:46.220 that's exactly what America's Most Wanted did, is you ran manhunts.
00:17:51.260 Absolutely.
00:17:51.700 Absolutely.
00:17:51.900 And so here it comes that there's a manhunt that gets closed off and shut down, and suddenly
00:18:02.240 that entire narrative goes away.
00:18:05.200 We're coming up here on a break in a minute, but let me ask you this, Margaret, in your capacity
00:18:11.580 at America's Most Wanted, did you ever have a situation where such a high-profile manhunt
00:18:15.900 was just suddenly called off?
00:18:18.360 Never.
00:18:19.340 Absolutely never.
00:18:20.400 And it was called off in a way, just quickly, that was so preposterous.
00:18:29.040 In mid-June, the FBI came out and announced that, oh, whoops, the mechanic whose description
00:18:37.280 generated this wanted poster at the rental agency where the bomb truck was rented, he must have
00:18:48.100 just made a mistake.
00:18:50.100 He must have been talking about two other guys who were coming into the store, into the
00:18:57.620 agency the next day.
00:18:59.160 So it was all just a mistake, and the eyewitnesses were mistaken, and this just never happened.
00:19:06.740 Something from the start didn't add up about John Doe 2.
00:19:12.120 We'll be right back, Human Events Daily, Real America's Voice.
00:19:18.840 Today, you know, they talk about influences.
00:19:21.420 These are influences, and they're friends of mine, Jack Persovic.
00:19:27.160 Where's Jack?
00:19:28.120 Jack.
00:19:29.240 He's done a great job.
00:19:30.620 All right, Jack Persovic, here we are back live, Human Events Daily, Washington, D.C.
00:19:38.320 We're on with Margaret Roberts, the author of the new book, Blowback, the Untold Story
00:19:43.540 of the FBI and the Oklahoma City Bombing.
00:19:46.780 We've been talking all about John Doe 2, and John Doe 2 was this individual, a wanted man,
00:19:55.320 an unidentified man, who had a description, had a police sketch, was posted up all over
00:20:02.020 the country, all of the media.
00:20:04.020 Margaret Roberts used to work at America's Most Wanted.
00:20:06.620 This is exactly the type of case that they would get into, running manhunts, helping the
00:20:12.540 agencies work with the public to identify these people who were on the run, and yet suddenly
00:20:18.780 the manhunt gets called off.
00:20:21.540 We're told that John Doe 2 didn't exist.
00:20:24.120 It was all a big mistake.
00:20:27.040 But Margaret, in the opening chapter of your book, you introduce the readers to someone
00:20:32.460 known as Kenneth Trenadue.
00:20:36.060 Who was Kenneth Trenadue, and why does he play such a role in this case?
00:20:42.540 Yes, Kenneth Trenadue is really the mystery inside the enigma of the Oklahoma City bombing.
00:20:51.820 And the grandmother I told you about, who summoned me to Oklahoma City 10 years after the bombing,
00:21:00.340 and after I sat with her for a lesson in her journey in the bombing and why she believed the government
00:21:12.300 wasn't telling the public the truth, that grandmother sent me to meet Jesse Trenadue, an attorney in Salt
00:21:23.260 Lake City, and really all she told me was, he knows a lot about this case, and he has a theory about who
00:21:33.440 John Doe 2 was, and you need to meet him.
00:21:36.560 So I took her word for that, and went on to Salt Lake City, where attorney Jesse Trenadue
00:21:47.420 met me outside his law office on a cold morning in 2006, and told me a staggering story.
00:21:58.900 Jesse's first words were, the FBI murdered my brother, and coming from an attorney, a former law professor,
00:22:12.020 a Marine, and a former All-American track star at the University of Southern California, I was just stunned
00:22:24.580 by these words.
00:22:26.280 And the story that he told me over the next couple of hours, probably, about his brother is really
00:22:36.440 what riveted me and hooked me on this investigation.
00:22:43.740 Kenneth Trenadue was a 44-year-old laborer in Southern California.
00:22:53.040 He had been in the Army.
00:22:57.100 He was Jesse's younger brother.
00:22:59.200 He enlisted in the Army at the age 17 during the Vietnam War,
00:23:05.500 and he came home hooked on heroin, like a lot of soldiers did.
00:23:11.060 And he started, you know, robbing pharmacies and then savings and loans to feed his habit.
00:23:22.880 And eventually, he was caught.
00:23:25.880 He pleaded guilty.
00:23:27.200 He went to prison in California, did his time, got out.
00:23:31.360 And in June of 1990, but he had a, he crossed swords, had a falling out with his parole officer,
00:23:45.300 who refused to allow him to have a beer at the end of the day, at the end of a hard day's labor as a construction worker,
00:23:56.180 which didn't, just didn't sit with Kenneth Trenadue.
00:23:59.420 So he just stopped going to his parole officer meetings.
00:24:06.120 And nobody was looking for him for years when he would, he crossed the southern border where he was visiting his wife's family in Mexico,
00:24:18.160 coming back into California in, on June 10, 1995.
00:24:25.200 This is now two months after the Oklahoma City bombing.
00:24:30.100 He was arrested and jailed for the parole violation awaiting his hearing,
00:24:39.600 which he sat awaiting in, for two months in California until suddenly and inexplicably,
00:24:47.820 he was transferred to Oklahoma City in August of 1995.
00:24:54.560 That was four months after the bombing.
00:24:59.380 Three days later, Kenneth Trenadue was found tortured and murdered
00:25:05.360 in his suicide proof, solitary confinement cell in the federal facility in Oklahoma City.
00:25:15.660 So that was the beginning of Jesse's crusade for justice for Kenneth.
00:25:23.140 And I want to, I want to show the audience now because we've, we've set that up, this up.
00:25:27.880 We've got a picture here of Kenneth Trenadue.
00:25:30.080 And I want to show the side-by-side with John Trenadue, who was the subject of this manhunt.
00:25:39.060 A dead ringer.
00:25:40.840 And as you wrote in the book, even down to the dragon tattoo on his left arm.
00:25:46.940 The only problem was Kenneth Trenadue had no connection whatsoever to Oklahoma City,
00:25:54.780 to Timothy McVeigh, to any of the people involved.
00:26:00.320 Obviously, as you just mentioned, his, his spouse was Mexican.
00:26:04.060 Not exactly something you would see from a, a member of the Aryan Republican army 1.00
00:26:09.800 or a member of a white nationalist group.
00:26:12.560 And yet they brought him in and tortured him, allegedly, hoping to get more information out
00:26:22.520 about others that may have been involved in this plot.
00:26:26.380 So suddenly this creates a huge problem because, wait a minute, I thought we were told it was a lone wolf.
00:26:33.560 Who's this John Doe 2?
00:26:34.860 And you're picking up lookalikes who, I admit, are dead ringers.
00:26:39.900 But even though they have no connection, this creates a huge issue when they go to take Timothy McVeigh to court.
00:26:48.520 And in the next segment, we're going to explain how this death has unraveled a much larger story.
00:26:58.140 Be right back.
00:26:58.760 Jack DeSobiec, Real America's Voice.
00:27:04.860 And Jack, where is Jack?
00:27:11.960 Where is Jack?
00:27:14.260 Where is he?
00:27:15.560 Jack, I want to see you.
00:27:19.200 Great job, Jack.
00:27:20.620 Thank you.
00:27:21.380 What a job you do.
00:27:22.800 You know, we have an incredible thing.
00:27:24.200 We're always talking about the fake news and the bad, but we have guys.
00:27:27.960 And these are the guys who should be getting Pulisic.
00:27:29.980 Jack DeSobiec, here we are back, Human Events, Daily Real America's Voice.
00:27:35.540 We're talking blowback, the untold story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City bombing.
00:27:40.760 And we just got to this huge bombshell in the story in the last segment talking about the FBI picking up this guy or, you know, eventually getting into custody.
00:27:50.620 This guy, John Doe, who they believed was John Doe, too, Kenneth Trenadue, turns out it was a case of mistaken identity.
00:27:59.060 And so we're on with the author, Margaret Roberts.
00:28:01.600 Margaret, if Kenneth Trenadue, who turns up dead with all of these signs of torture around him, even though we're told it's suicide, if he wasn't John Doe, too, then who was?
00:28:13.900 Well, a great question, Jack.
00:28:20.380 The story begins to unravel, weirdly enough, with a clue that Timothy McVeigh himself on death row sends to Jesse Trenadue in the year 2000.
00:28:38.140 And Timothy McVeigh had been, of course, Kenneth's case was a cause celeb in prison, and Timothy McVeigh was fascinated by it.
00:28:48.980 And he sent Jesse a clue, a message saying the FBI killed your brother, mistaking him for Richard Lee Guthrie.
00:29:01.000 That's the clue to who John Doe, too, might have been.
00:29:07.260 Richard Lee Guthrie was the leader of this Aryan Republican Army terror group that hid out in an eastern Oklahoma enclave known as Elohim City.
00:29:21.860 So this is how, for Jesse, the Aryan Republican Army became the center of his investigation, and then mine as well.
00:29:34.740 On death row, in exclusive interviews for 23 months leading up to the execution of Timothy McVeigh, he told this subversive story to his death row cellmate, David Hammer.
00:29:55.040 And Timothy McVeigh's account to Hammer put the Aryan Republican Army members as his support squad in Oklahoma City on the day of the bombing.
00:30:09.460 The question of which of them was John Doe, too.
00:30:15.920 It could have been Richard Guthrie, it could have been another member of the gang, but McVeigh's clue brought the Aryan Republican Army front and center in Jesse Trinidue's investigation.
00:30:31.420 Now, this Elohim City group, what do we know about this group, what has come out, and do they have any connections to any wider organization?
00:30:48.000 Well, they were a way station for the white power movement. 0.94
00:30:55.200 People came and went through Elohim City, the Aryan Republican Army, which, by the way, carried out 22 bank robberies in the Midwest in the two years before the bombing.
00:31:12.180 And their haul was $250,000, twice that in today's money.
00:31:19.140 None of it was ever recovered.
00:31:20.760 They donated it generously to white power groups. 0.50
00:31:26.740 So that's who they were.
00:31:30.180 And we know about them incredibly because the ATF, in the months before the Oklahoma City bombing,
00:31:41.400 had an informant embedded in Elohim City watching and listening to this conspiracy, this plot,
00:31:55.680 warning her handlers that a bombing was coming and that Oklahoma City was on the short list.
00:32:03.460 So, and to a reporter that she trusted at the time named J.D. Cash, she named the names of the Aryan Republican Army as being in the center of the plot to bomb the Mira building in Oklahoma City.
00:32:22.140 And so, if she's making these reports, wouldn't they presumably, hopefully, law enforcement or the ATF or reach out to their FBI compatriots,
00:32:34.480 they certainly would have gone forward and stopped it, yet they didn't.
00:32:38.560 What happened?
00:32:39.280 Well, there's an astounding moment that comes just about a month, two months before the bombing,
00:32:49.500 in which the FBI discovers and the ATF discover that there are actually two undercover operations afoot in Elohim City.
00:33:03.900 They both were surveilling this plot, and the FBI essentially kicked ATF off its surveillance.
00:33:19.460 So, the FBI was left, and very little is known about the FBI's operation either before or after that moment.
00:33:31.340 But the ATF was soon dispatched, and their informant was also kicked off the case.
00:33:39.980 And unbelievably, none of what she has been warning and telling her ATF handlers seems to have made it into the mix of what happened next as the plot went forward in Oklahoma City.
00:34:01.340 What is PATCON?
00:34:03.740 PATCON was the FBI's 1990s very secret infiltration program targeting white supremacists, extreme right-wing radicals.
00:34:25.120 And PATCON was surveilling Timothy McVeigh and at least some members of the Aryan Republican Army before the bombing.
00:34:39.400 As in my investigation, one of the pivotal turning points comes in 2011, when an FBI whistleblower, a former top spy in PATCON, reaches out to Jesse Trinidue.
00:35:03.600 There are a lot of Marines in this story.
00:35:06.000 Jesse and John Matthews, the FBI whistleblower, are both Marines.
00:35:11.740 And Matthews had been following Jesse's story as crusade for his brother.
00:35:17.660 And he called Jesse and said, I want to come to Salt Lake City and tell you about PATCON.
00:35:23.940 So PATCON, and it stands for Patriot Conspiracy, was, it sounds like these are entrapment operations.
00:35:37.940 This sounds very, and to folks who have been watching me for the last couple of years,
00:35:42.480 when we talk about things that went on during the Michigan militia with Whitmer, things that went on with January 6th,
00:35:50.380 this is starting to sound a little bit familiar to us.
00:35:54.480 Absolutely.
00:35:54.960 The picture that emerges of the Oklahoma City bombing is very like the Whitmer kidnap plot,
00:36:06.260 as we discovered one potential undercover operative after the next over the period of time we were looking at the bombing and looking for answers.
00:36:20.380 And it's one of those things.
00:36:22.860 And by the way, I'll just, I'll throw out here that the Oklahoma City bombing, it's two years to the day, April 19th,
00:36:30.900 two years to the day after the, the end of the Waco siege, the end of the Waco siege.
00:36:39.560 So the raid on, on Waco, then two years to the day of the Oklahoma City bombing.
00:36:43.900 And prior to all of that, you have Ruby Ridge.
00:36:46.340 So there's all of these elements throughout the 1990s that seem to be feeding one another.
00:36:53.300 You have these federal law enforcement operating domestically, and then you also have these various militia groups,
00:37:00.660 but all of which also seem to have direct ties to things like PAC-CON or things like informants,
00:37:09.340 or again and again, the question of where the lines are drawn between, okay, who is a true member of this organization?
00:37:18.360 Who is someone who's entrapped?
00:37:19.680 Who is someone that's operating under federal authority or federal orders?
00:37:23.760 And you even just mentioned that there wasn't just one, but two federal operations in this one group of Elohim City,
00:37:31.840 all of which were prior to the Oklahoma City bombing, which at the very least, at the very least,
00:37:40.100 provided advanced knowledge that there was a plot to target the federal building in Oklahoma City
00:37:46.080 before the bombing ever took place.
00:37:50.440 Quick break, right back, Jack Kosovic, Human Events, with Mark Boyd.
00:38:06.600 Jack is a great guy.
00:38:08.180 He's written a fantastic book.
00:38:09.840 Everybody's talking about it.
00:38:11.040 Go get it.
00:38:12.200 And he's been my friend right from the beginning of this whole beautiful event.
00:38:16.120 And we're going to turn it around and make our country great again.
00:38:19.220 Amen.
00:38:20.440 All right, Jack Kosovic, here we are back.
00:38:25.400 Our final segment with Margaret Roberts, the author of this incredible new book.
00:38:30.500 As you can tell, I read it cover to cover because I couldn't put it down.
00:38:35.000 It's called Blowback, the Untold Story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City Bombing.
00:38:41.140 It starts with a wrongful death of a man who was wrongfully identified, mistakenly identified as a member of the plot to bomb the Oklahoma City building.
00:38:54.940 And it deals with government informants over and over multiple agencies, a group called PATCON, the Patriot Conspiracy, a project that was run covertly by the FBI during the 1990s to set up essentially militia groups purportedly being racist and white nationalists and then entrap people in these various schemes.
00:39:20.400 And there are whistleblowers that have come forward saying that, hey, this case, Oklahoma City was one of these entrapment operations that went really, really wrong.
00:39:32.060 Margaret Roberts, you're on with us.
00:39:33.980 And by the way, everyone, just go by the book.
00:39:36.600 You won't be able to put it down.
00:39:38.440 I could do an entire week on this.
00:39:40.520 Maybe we will at some point.
00:39:42.020 But, Margaret, the name of the game right now, the name of the day has been accountability.
00:39:48.400 And files have been released on so many things just in the last few weeks.
00:39:53.080 Russiagate, JFK, Martin Luther King.
00:39:57.540 Obviously, there's a push for the Epstein files.
00:40:01.120 Jailhouse interviews of Ghislaine Maxwell are being held right now by the Deputy Attorney General.
00:40:07.560 So there's so much pressure here.
00:40:09.140 I would love for the Oklahoma City files to also be added to this list of potential releases.
00:40:17.900 We've mentioned this FBI surveillance video that purportedly exists, and yet they say they can't find it.
00:40:25.720 The PATCON files as well, Patriot Conspiracy.
00:40:29.140 What all do you think and what else should people be asking for when it comes to disclosure on this?
00:40:35.560 Well, great question, Jack.
00:40:39.940 The surveillance videotapes are so critical.
00:40:43.980 I mean, just think about it.
00:40:46.160 Almost no one even knows this videotape exists.
00:40:50.560 And Jesse Trinidad's most recent landmark freedom of information lawsuit seeks to force the disclosure of those videotapes because, to bring our mystery full circle,
00:41:12.560 The images that the American public has never been allowed to see are going to show who was on the ground with Timothy McVeigh, who certainly was not alone that day, and also might reveal who shot that videotape.
00:41:31.920 There is a thought that maybe it was PATCON that shot that videotape.
00:41:38.540 John Matthews, the whistleblower who came forward, said PATCON shot everything, videotaped everything.
00:41:45.960 So that is one very current thrust of this.
00:41:51.360 We don't have time to go into how it has languished for 11 years, but the tip of the iceberg is that John Matthews agreed to be Jesse's star witness at that videotapes trial.
00:42:05.120 And until he pulled out on the eve of his testimony, telling Jesse that the FBI had pressured him into withdrawing from that from testifying and that he feared they would take his medical benefits and his pension.
00:42:25.680 And in almost a plea, he told Jesse, I don't want to just be another homeless vet living under a bridge.
00:42:35.500 So that witness tampering is still under investigation and behind it is the judgment from the judge about whether to release those videotapes or not.
00:42:49.600 And another very current thrust of this investigation is the sealed deposition that John Matthews gave and which quite possibly he lays out the entire operation and scope of this rogue PATCON infiltration program,
00:43:17.820 which of which very little is known.
00:43:20.680 And if we knew what was inside that deposition, it might tell us a lot about the evolution of what is essentially a surveillance crisis in America that has progressed from Oklahoma City,
00:43:41.000 perhaps to include the Boston Marathon bombing and more recent cases and tragedies all the way up to Russiagate.
00:43:58.920 So the the the the path runs through the path of our need for transparency that we do not have runs through Oklahoma City.
00:44:11.920 And if I could say one, please just, you know, blowback the title of my book, I think we should we should recognize that the this cover up that has been perpetuated for 30 years.
00:44:33.020 What has kept this story alive has been individuals from survivors of the bombing to Jesse Trinity with his amazing and dogged investigation to to some maverick journalists who spoke truth to power,
00:44:55.160 even when major news media, even when major news media were turning a blind eye or worse, helping to hide this story.
00:45:04.160 So those people are really what has kept the truth alive here and your viewers, Jack, who have already weighed in on on on social media, having the reaction.
00:45:20.160 Wait, what? I always wondered about the witnesses, the coverage.
00:45:27.160 All of us are are having this reaction now.
00:45:33.160 And this is very current now to our need for transparency because of what those whistleblowers, witnesses, survivors have done individually to keep the story alive.
00:45:49.160 Well, and certainly you are speaking for them and people need to remember this.
00:45:56.160 These are the family members of victims who suffered an unspeakable tragedy that none of them deserve.
00:46:06.160 And their family members are the ones that have been fighting for truth, some of which for 30 years now.
00:46:13.160 And we haven't even had time just due to the constraints here to get this out to talk about all of the other mysteries involved.
00:46:20.160 Terrence Yeeke is the one that one that pops to the top of my head, a hero police sergeant and first responder who dies mysteriously after raising questions about this and other witnesses who claim to have seen.
00:46:34.160 I've seen Timothy McVeigh working with other people all over the place before the bombing happened and then they all mysteriously either step off or are killed or some other situation happens.
00:46:50.160 And the book, by the way, I'm going to say it again.
00:46:53.160 So people don't need to get this because you need to get this one's blowback.
00:46:56.160 It is a you know, I would say it's your beach read.
00:46:59.160 It's not it's not a fun read, but it's an important read.
00:47:01.160 And if you're someone who's a voracious reader wants to understand the truth about what's going on behind the scenes in your own country and possibly predict what might happen next.
00:47:10.160 Go read blowback.
00:47:12.160 It's incumbent upon all patriots to go read blowback the untold story FBI in the Oklahoma City bombing Margaret Roberts.
00:47:20.160 Thank you so much for being so gracious for your time and being dogged to put yourself through all of this and put it all together.
00:47:26.160 Thank you, Jeff.
00:47:29.160 God bless you.
00:47:32.160 God bless the victims of this attack of any attack.
00:47:37.160 God bless the families and the fight for truth.
00:47:41.160 The truth tellers will continue as long as there is breath in our lungs.
00:47:48.160 Ladies and gentlemen, as always, you have my permission.
00:47:50.160 Bless you.