00:10:13.100I've been a practicing criminal defense lawyer for almost 20 years,
00:10:16.800And so I'm just trying to bring a little bit of insight into just the parts of the process that if you're not a lawyer, you may not be aware of, you may not understand kind of how things are unfolding the way that they are, why certain decisions are made and so forth.
00:10:33.620So I just find that, especially in this day and age where there's a lot of interest in the criminal justice process, which I find very gratifying and hope to kind of help just make it a little bit more accessible for people that are interested in cases.
00:10:48.880well i think that's great and you do such a great job of breaking it down you know one of the the
00:10:55.680ones that we've seen though with tyler robinson specifically is you know there's a case and
00:10:59.840obviously you know myself all the colleagues you know we're very close to this one but
00:11:04.100you know the level i think of misinformation on this case has gotten really high and very very
00:11:11.180rapidly whereas to me it seemed to me that the evidence in the case was pretty straightforward
00:11:17.440And that, you know, I kind of thought, you know, through what I thought the, you know, the legal challenges might be, what the defense might be.
00:11:24.920And it's actually kind of kind of what we've seen play out, to tell you the truth.
00:11:28.680Like, this is pretty much what I expected, because and but I'll throw it to you.
00:11:33.360When you look at the defense's strategy thus far in the case, I don't see very much example, at least for them, of arguing about whether or not evidence is for or against him.
00:11:46.180I seem to it seems to be more delay procedure, whether certain evidence is allowed in that type of thing.
00:11:53.260Do you get what I'm saying? I do. And, you know, when you're a criminal defense lawyer, it's part of the reason why I started doing what I do is is I want to help people understand what exactly that means and what the job is.
00:12:07.320Criminal defense lawyers tend to not be particularly popular in just the world at large.
00:12:13.920And I think a lot of that is just based on a misunderstanding of what the role entails.
00:12:19.640You get the case that is presented to you.
00:12:22.140And some of those cases give you a lot to work with.
00:12:24.820Some of the cases give you much less to work with.
00:12:27.400And so your role in a case can be anything from vigorously fighting to establish the
00:12:32.900innocence of a client that you sincerely believe didn't commit the crime to explaining to your
00:12:39.680client what it's going to be like to be processed into prison and how parole works and things along
00:12:45.280those lines. So it's all very fact dependent. But after the time that I've spent in practice,
00:12:51.300you get pretty accustomed to being able to read initial documents, probable cause affidavits and
00:12:57.920things like that, and get a pretty good sense of what you're going to have to work with in a case
00:13:03.460versus what you're not. And so this case in particular, the probable cause affidavit,
00:13:11.740it is a representation of the evidence that the state anticipates being able to present.
00:13:17.280Of course, isn't the evidence itself, but it's a representation that this is what they're going
00:13:22.260to be able to establish. And so if they are able to do that, if they're able to deliver on
00:13:28.960what they represent they have in these charging documents, this is quite a strong case against
00:13:35.420Tyler Robinson. It doesn't leave a whole lot of opportunity to argue factual innocence. And so
00:13:42.000the only way that the defense is likely to be able to create room for themselves to get there
00:13:48.280is through these efforts to kind of challenge, for example, the validity of some of the scientific
00:13:57.440evidence. We've had previews from the defense that some of these issues they expect to litigate
00:14:03.780concerning DNA evidence, concerning ballistics evidence, and things along those lines.
00:14:10.540And so the more they can ship away at the evidence that is actually going to be presented to a jury
00:14:18.020to be part of its decision, then the better opportunity they may have to be able to
00:14:23.580identify some reasonable doubt, some reasons for a jury to acquit. But if those efforts are not
00:14:31.700successful, then they're very likely going to be in a situation which is quite often the case in
00:14:39.180death penalty cases, where your main focus is simply going to be trying to save this individual's
00:14:44.900life, that there isn't necessarily a good case to be made for factual innocence. But the goal is to
00:14:52.560simply avoid the death sentence, present the mitigating circumstances, present the jury with
00:14:58.200the reasons why they should not choose death as a consequence. And so what you're talking about,
00:15:04.600this is all in the context, and just for, I get what you're saying, but for the folks of,
00:15:09.460you know, that may not have followed the case as closely, you're talking about,
00:15:12.060will certain elements of the evidence be allowed to be entered in the trial?
00:15:17.140Because at this point, there's no jury.
00:15:19.000There's no date for a trial to be set.
00:15:21.640And we haven't even had the preliminary hearing.
00:15:23.980So all of these fights are going to be about what that future jury is allowed to see and
00:15:31.220to weigh as evidence for or against the guilt of Tyler Robinson in this case.
00:15:37.260And to your point, this is very similar to what you would see in other capital cases.
00:15:42.060where there are going to be fights over the validity of testing of DNA, of ballistics, of all of these things.
00:15:48.420Is that test, you know, is that a new type of science?
00:15:51.120Is that a new type of evaluation, et cetera, et cetera, where, you know, where they're going to be looking at?
00:15:59.140I'm sure there's going to be questions about surveillance cameras and footage and the technology that we use for all sorts of things.
00:16:06.320But ultimately, that's just about getting it into the actual trial, which hasn't even started yet.
00:16:12.820Absolutely. In fact, Tyler Robinson, this is often one of the things that isn't understood.
00:16:19.520Tyler Robinson hasn't even entered a plea at this point in time under Utah law.
00:16:23.440Is that usual or is that like a Utah thing?
00:16:28.240It's not terribly unusual. I don't think that it's unique to Utah.
00:16:33.140But it's based on this idea that because they have not used a grand jury to kind of review and invalidate these charges being brought based on the evidence that the state purports to have, that at this point there is nothing really formal for him to answer to.
00:16:53.640And so until the preliminary hearing has been held and the judge has made a determination, yes, there is sufficient evidence here to find probable cause to believe that this individual committed the crime, he's not required to formally enter a plea until that happens.
00:17:11.580So it remains, at least theoretically possible, that that could fail and he would never have to enter a plea on the case. The case would simply be dismissed for insufficient evidence.
00:17:23.640That said, given, you know, what we anticipate from these charging documents, the evidence is going to be that that seems pretty unlikely.
00:17:33.100And the bar, of course, is I mean, this is this is pretty much the highest bar that you're going to need if you're actually going for the death penalty, which they are.
00:17:41.120They need to hit every single piece of this.
00:17:43.860And by the way, not just in this trial, but also at every level of review and appeal, which, of course, will inevitably come.
00:17:53.020I think that one of the things that is important to bear in mind with a case like this, any type of death penalty case, but here is where Utah in particular, it may be an issue, is that the process of appeal and post-conviction relief through the federal courts, this can be not just a years-long process, but a decades-long process.
00:18:17.380As we sit here today, I believe the person who is serving the longest term on death row at this point in time is Michael Archuleta. He has been on death row for 36 years, and his case is still under post-conviction review.
00:18:35.800It's currently having hearings in the in the Superior Court. It was sent back down to Superior Court by the federal court to kind of take evidence and make certain factual findings.
00:18:47.100And so once it goes back up to Superior to a district court, then it will work its way again through the federal appellate process.
00:18:53.780So these things, they don't happen quickly. And they're also what the defense lawyers have in mind right now in Tyler Robinson's case is they're making their choices about how to proceed.
00:19:06.980They know the process because it's their state. They know. Andrew Burkhart, we are coming up on a hard break. Let me put a pin in that, come back with you.
00:19:14.200This is fascinating stuff, a preview and an understanding of how the case against Tyler Robinson will unfold. Human Events Daily, right back.
00:19:22.280Today, you know, they talk about influences. These are influences. And they're friends of mine. Jack Prasovic. Where's Jack? Jack. He's done a great job.
00:19:34.060All right, folks, Jack Pacific back live, Human Events Daily, Real America's Voice, and we're on with Andrea Burkhart here, and we're talking about Tyler Robinson.
00:19:48.740So, Andrea, you mentioned before, and you've done such an incredible job on your sub stack of uploading the documents that have been unsealed as they come out again and again.
00:19:59.080You were the very first to break the preliminary ballistics report, which, of course, has been, you know, has been all over media since you did that.
00:20:08.340And I just kind of wanted to go through some of that with you, because to your point, we have summaries.
00:20:13.720We have a good idea of what the the evidence is going to be.
00:20:17.940We're getting more of that now as certain things are being unsealed.
00:20:21.400For example, we got this letter, this handwritten letter.
00:20:25.460It's a photo of a letter that was that was released.
00:20:29.000I believe it was in one of the unsealed search warrants recently that we had had a reference to in the probable cause document.
00:20:35.840But now we actually have the full letter.
00:20:38.140So do you anticipate that more of this evidence is going to be made public as we get closer to the hearing?
00:20:43.100I do. And that's fairly typical for a criminal case that unfolds in this manner, where you have a really short period of time between a suspect being identified and the suspect being arrested.
00:20:55.460And that's because a lot of the investigation in those types of cases doesn't really take place until after the charge has been filed.
00:21:03.240So you have what's public is kind of the initial bare bones of what the prosecution had to get them to that probable cause step.
00:21:13.960But it's often very far from the end of the story when it comes to the full picture of guilt or innocence of that particular defendant.
00:21:23.000So it's very, very common to, as the case goes on and more and more information is obtained, that that information starts being brought up through court processes, litigation, and just otherwise makes its way into the public record.
00:21:39.380right for example because i keep hearing people say oh well there's there's no video of this
00:21:45.740there's no video of that where's this video where's that video and yet we do see references
00:21:50.680through these documents and i believe it came up in the in the previous hearing um the most recent
00:21:55.980hearing that uh that there were other videos of tyler robinson and so the presumption isn't
00:22:02.220necessarily at this point that all of the video has been released in fact it's that it will be
00:22:07.300released at the hearing. Yeah. And frankly, even at the hearing, it's likely to just be a portion
00:22:14.320of what they have. We know from the conversations about discovery that they have somewhere in the
00:22:20.800ballpark of 24 terabytes of video evidence just from UVU's surveillance cameras alone. They have
00:22:30.180footage from neighboring ring cameras. It's very common in cases like this as well to do what they
00:22:36.740call a video canvas. And so they would identify like routes that Tyler Robinson would have taken
00:22:44.920either because it's a logical route or because they have obtained his location information from
00:22:50.520his cell phone or from his vehicle and navigation system or something like that. And then go and
00:22:56.280obtain video evidence from those sources as well. So we can anticipate there is a huge volume of
00:23:03.620of video evidence that it's in the possession of law enforcement, but simply hasn't been made
00:23:08.760public because we haven't gotten to that point in this court process yet.
00:23:14.380And so what, what, what, what, what do you say then to folks? And I saw you kind of going back
00:23:19.620and forth with a few people who have had these questions to say, well, oh, well, the video
00:23:23.620hasn't been released yet. Therefore there isn't any video, but ultimately this is the way the
00:23:29.040system works is kind of, you know, for better or worse, but that's sort of is the answer, right?
00:23:33.620It absolutely is. I mean, we hold trials in the courtroom, not in the public square. The process needs to be fair to the defendant. And part of that includes having a jury that hasn't already made up their minds because they've already had everything that the parties have vetted in the media.
00:23:56.320There's obviously a lot that can go on, like we just talked about, between what parties have or
00:24:02.900what they purport to have versus what ultimately gets presented to a jury. Some things may ultimately
00:24:09.140not be admissible for one reason or another, so it wouldn't be appropriate for the jury to be
00:24:14.260making a decision based on that type of information. But if it's all out in the public,
00:24:18.300you can't unring a bell. You can't take that out of your mind once you've been exposed to it.
00:24:23.280So this is just a fundamental aspect of due process in criminal cases that we preserve these types of issues for the courtroom.
00:24:32.560And that's reflected in the ethical rules that apply to attorneys when it comes to making statements about cases or sharing information about cases.
00:24:41.080It's also reflected in this particular case in the gag order that the judge has entered on the attorneys and on the law enforcement investigators precisely for this purpose, to prevent them from sharing information that isn't already being made public through the court process itself.
00:24:58.460And so we talked a little bit, you said the DNA evidence, obviously that's going to be something that's challenged in a number of ways.
00:25:05.840They're going to try to chip away at it.
00:25:07.700But there's more than just DNA evidence here, too.
00:25:10.760I mean, there there's things like fingerprints, which is a much more much more traditional form of identification.
00:25:18.700And ultimately, and I just keep coming back to this, it's going to be that role of the parents, the family members and his significant other who apparently are going to be testifying in this upcoming hearing.
00:25:31.280I mean, that to me isn't something that that you see a lot in these types of cases.
00:25:35.500You definitely don't. And it's extremely powerfully persuasive evidence, just because people can look at their own experiences, their own kind of common sense, and what would I do in this type of situation?
00:25:50.820And I think most people can relate to having a child. You would probably believe almost anything to avoid reaching the conclusion that your child was capable of committing a crime like this.
00:26:06.980And so to be in a position where the parents apparently are so deeply persuaded, where the significant other is so deeply persuaded that they would present that information to law enforcement, that they would assist him in involuntarily surrendering for criminal prosecution.
00:26:24.400You're right. This is not the type of thing that you see in everyday cases.
00:26:29.440And it is likely to be, I think, particularly persuasive.
00:26:33.660no i i just i keep coming back to it and and when people bring up you know you'll you know this thing
00:26:40.700or that thing and then and sure there's there's going to be a lot of that as you meant as you say
00:26:45.060the chipping around the edges that there are these huge factors that you really can't get around and
00:26:50.240it's gonna be very tough to try to convince a jury otherwise when you have someone's own mother and
00:26:57.020father saying what they're going to say and and we'll see of course certainly the the hearing is
00:27:02.060yet to come. One more segment with Andrea Burkhart right after this break. Jack Posobiec from Events
00:27:08.280Daily. And Jack, where is Jack? Where is Jack? Where is he? Jack, I want to see you.
00:27:19.360Great job, Jack. Thank you. What a job you do. You know, we have an incredible thing. We're
00:27:24.540always talking about the fake news and the bad, but we have guys, and these are the guys who
00:27:29.280be getting policies. So we're back live human events daily. Folks, the government has been
00:27:38.100medicating our water for over 80 years with fluoride. And by the way, this isn't because
00:27:42.860he asked for it or because he voted for it because, well, they decided you need it. It's not a decision
00:27:47.420I want someone else making for my family, which is why I filter every drop of water in my home
00:27:51.720with Cove Pure. Over 209 million Americans are on fluorided water right now. Here's what the
00:27:57.400science actually shows. In September 2024, a federal judge ruled that adding fluoride to
00:28:02.780water poses, and I'm quoting the court directly, an unreasonable health risk to neurological health.
00:28:08.660Not a fringe study, a federal court ordering the EPA to act. Then in January 2025, a study published
00:28:14.620by JAMA Pediatrics, one of the most respected medical journals in the world, confirmed the
00:28:19.280link between fluoride exposure and children's IQ scores. The higher the exposure, the lower the
00:28:24.420IQ. Sure, some states are moving on this. Utah, Florida, they banned it. But that process takes
00:28:29.680years. Your kids, your family, they're drinking this water today. You need something that works
00:28:33.560now. That's exactly what Cove Pure is. It's clear wave reverse osmosis technology. It's
00:28:39.460certified to remove up to 99.9% of contaminants, fluoride, PFAS, lead, pharmaceuticals, heavy
00:28:44.760metals, anything that isn't water gets filtered out. Don't wait for the government to catch up.
00:29:01.580We call it Super Water, and we've been filling up a lot of bottles
00:29:06.180for Little League Baseball with Super Water thanks to our Cove Pure.
00:29:11.020My kids have been doing great at baseball, too.
00:29:13.000We're on with Andrew Burkhart, our final segment here.
00:29:15.900Andrew, I want to ask you, so we have this upcoming,
00:29:17.800mean, it's a WebEx hearing, so it's not the full court hearing, but Judge Graff is expected to make
00:29:24.780a couple of rulings here on May 8th, one regarding cameras in the courtroom and then another
00:29:31.780regarding a potential delay of the preliminary hearing. I'll let you take it in whatever order
00:29:37.840you prefer, but what do you think we should expect out of this upcoming set of rulings?
00:29:42.960so first off the timing of the preliminary hearing uh this is an issue that's going to be
00:29:50.440of critical importance to the parties that are appearing before that court of course if the
00:29:54.780the preliminary hearing is going to go forward as it's currently scheduled which is i believe in the
00:29:59.060third week of may uh they need to know that right away they have witnesses that they would need to
00:30:03.580get under subpoena they they need to make travel arrangements uh do do all of those types of
00:30:08.140preparations. So I expect a prompt and rapid ruling from the court on that particular issue.
00:30:15.520I am not expecting, just based on his questions and the arguments that were presented at the last
00:30:24.720hearing where these issues were argued, I'm not expecting him to continue the preliminary hearing.
00:30:30.380He made a comment to the parties to the effect of keep your foot on the accelerator, which tends
00:30:37.000to suggest a need to continue moving forward in the expectation of a rapid hearing. The more,
00:30:45.800I think, intriguing and bigger picture question is the one about the cameras in the courtroom.
00:30:51.200This has, of course, been a issue that the defense has litigated quite extensively and just a variety
00:30:59.340of different contexts and arguments that have been raised. They don't want this case receiving
00:31:05.540the type of publicity that it has. And in one instance, even decided to name drop our show,
00:31:12.960Human Events, because we have been pushing so hard, you know, so ardently and wrote this open
00:31:17.820letter where we were pushing for cameras in the courtroom. And I think we kind of got the ball
00:31:22.800rolling on a lot of this and it really didn't seem to like that. So they named, name checked
00:31:28.220us in court a couple of hearings ago. Yeah, they did. And they have been presenting just a vast
00:31:35.500volume of information about the kinds of commentary that is going on. They focus primarily
00:31:42.760on the mainstream, but they have also talked about podcasters and they've referenced some
00:31:50.660conspiracy theories and things like that. So by and large, what the defense really doesn't seem
00:31:57.760to like is frankly just the interest in the case, the commentary about it, the fact that
00:32:03.220People are discussing it and have opinions about it. And so they made what I think would be a particularly strong case for, you know, that public commentary can be damaging to Tyler Robinson's right to a fair trial.
00:32:20.060But the problem, of course, is that the First Amendment right that we all enjoy to be able to not just see what is happening in our courtrooms, which is itself protected by the First Amendment, but of course, to talk about it and to discuss it and to say what we think about it and whether we think it's right or wrong or things need to be changed.
00:32:38.720So there's no real viable way to stop that from happening.
00:32:43.460And I think the problem the defense faces with this particular argument is that what
00:32:48.240they're trying to ban is just the raw feed of the courtroom proceeding that's happening,
00:32:53.980our ability to be able to see what's going on in these court hearings as if we were sitting
00:35:49.120And it all, again, goes back to that First Amendment. The First Amendment right to petition the government for grievances, for redress of grievances, is what underlies many, many court decisions coming out of the U.S. Supreme Court, as well as the various circuit courts of appeal that hold that that right is what protects our ability to sit in a criminal court and watch what is going on.
00:36:13.860Because the criminal court process, it's such an important part of our government, and it often gets overlooked in favor of Congress or governors or things like that.
00:36:28.060But the criminal justice system, it's actions that are done in our name.
00:36:33.400They affect us most directly in terms of the deprivations of liberty, of property, and so forth.
00:36:39.960And they implicate us because they bring us in as jurors to decide what is justice in a particular case.
00:36:48.660So just to sum up, it's extremely important that that we have the ability to continue to monitor that and to be heard about whether the system is working the way it's supposed to.
00:36:59.960Couldn't agree. Couldn't agree more. My wife commented to me once. We were watching a trial a couple of years ago, and she was born in the Soviet Union before she came to the United States. And she said, I can't believe they let you do all this. I can't believe that you have a system like this because she's been in a place where they don't have a system like this.
00:37:20.340Andrew Burkhart, incredible wealth of knowledge. So honored to have you on. Where can people go to follow you and get smarter on this and so many other things?
00:37:27.840So you can find me, as you mentioned, on Substack.
00:39:04.880And I couldn't help but hear you talk in the last segment
00:39:07.780about how much your wife appreciates America.
00:39:10.880Like, they let you do that stuff here.
00:39:12.080Like, I can't believe you guys have this kind of freedom.
00:39:15.040And the crazy thing is, so many people are in other countries.
00:39:18.020You know that she is very, you know, Tanya, and you've met my kids, too.
00:39:20.920And you know that she's very, very genuine when she says that.
00:39:24.380Right. And so many people from other countries are so genuine in their appreciation for the freedoms that we have in America because they know what it's like when you don't have them.
00:39:34.720And young kids today are being raised to be embarrassed or to be ashamed and not proud of and not appreciate America, which is insane to me.
00:39:43.880And so this is an opportunity that we have to fight back against the extreme leftist narrative that's teaching kids to hate America and teach them to love America and to know why they love America again.
00:39:58.080So this is cool. So Built by the Brave, it's Brave Books and this is your, you know, continue your partnership with them.
00:40:04.900But it's it's a new series in terms of a new continuity where there's new characters.
00:40:09.120It's set, you know, not in the fictional fantasy Freedom Island universe, but it's set right here in the U.S. of A.
00:40:15.600And I believe it's kind of a time travel series, a little sci-fi action.
00:40:19.180Yeah, that's exactly right. Kids are going to love it. It's so cool.
00:40:22.540And actually, Dr. Ben Carson, Riley Gaines and I have teamed up.
00:40:27.240We're sort of like the dynamic trio who have each put out a book and we've got signed copies of them.
00:40:32.840Mine is called Built by the Brave, and it's about a little kid named Eli who thinks history
00:40:37.140is boring until somebody, his name is Liberty Man, on the Monument to the Forefathers, which
00:40:43.880I've talked about so much and traveled around teaching about, you've seen it, he comes to
00:40:48.400life and he takes little Eli in a time travel capsule to some of the most daring adventures
00:40:54.940in American history, to the stormy voyage on the Mayflower with the pilgrims, to the
00:41:01.040battle at Lexington Concord. And he learns that bravery is not the absence of fear. It's the
00:41:07.720conquering of it. And that America was not built by perfect people, just courageous ones. And Dr.
00:41:14.540Carson's talking about America built on faith. And Riley Gaines is teaching kids one, two, three,
00:41:19.220we are free. So it's a super cool series. It's called the America Wins Bundle. And this is how
00:41:25.540we take back the narrative. Inside the home, reading to your kids where the real battle is
00:41:31.380fought. And that's so amazing because, you know, we're always looking, especially for me, you know,
00:41:39.120and we've done the library events and you got to be really careful. You got to be so careful because
00:41:44.340you take your kids out and you say, oh, just, it's not like it used to be when I was a kid.
00:41:49.180And my mom would just take me to the library and say, hey, have at it and go for it because now
00:41:54.020you're perusing the shelves and it's you know it's anti-racist baby and lgbt this and everything
00:42:00.420and they put them in the kids section on purpose that's why it's so important to get there ahead
00:42:07.380of the enemy to say i hate don't get taught about hating your country actually get taught the real
00:42:14.180history of how great america is how much our forefathers fought to create and to your point
00:42:19.700The system that we've been talking about, they're trying to tear it down.
00:42:58.180Not so much freedom to do that, when in reality, the things that we ought to be ashamed of
00:43:04.480and the things that we ought to be proud of are being reversed for our kids.
00:43:09.140And so if we want to straighten them out, we've got to do that, not only through the books that they read, but the music they listen to, the TV shows and the movies that they watch and the education that we give them.
00:43:20.720So everybody has a part to play. And my role right now is to put these three books into parents' and grandparents' hands.
00:43:27.320It's called the America Wins Bundle. You can get it at Brave Books or just go to Kirk250.com
00:43:34.300and you can see all three get a signed copy with little tokens, memorabilia of the accomplishments
00:43:41.380of Americans, all these cool little things like a Saturn V rocket and a Wright Brothers airplane,
00:43:47.920along with an American flag and these books. And this is a way you can push back and capture a
00:43:54.320sense of pride in the hearts of these little young americans in your life and it's so amazing
00:44:00.740it really is and that's that's one of the i'm glad you mentioned the the space program actually
00:44:05.560president trump is uh you know he's meeting the artemis crew right now and it's one thing i i love
00:44:10.360that we're now as a country we're reaching for the stars again we're reaching up we're trying
00:44:16.640to progress for not you know like not progressive but actual human progress that this is a country
00:44:23.900And we are, as a people, a group that's just done amazing, incredible feats.
00:45:00.380They don't want to focus on the achievements.
00:45:02.240They don't want to focus on the things that, yes, we have overcome, but we've overcome them together because we can do this with the unique blessing that we have as this country.
00:45:11.980And I think if you believe that, you can show people another path forward.
00:45:17.380I used to, I used to, when I would talk about, you know, after, after we lost Charlie, I
00:45:22.780would point out that there's, there's sort of like the Charlie Kirk version of America.
00:45:26.020And then there's the, the Zora Mandami version of America.
00:45:28.760And it's interesting because they're similar in age.
00:45:31.600And, and that one was all about loving your country and building it up.
00:45:36.180And the other one is all about just hating the country and wanting to tear it down and
00:45:41.500giving yourself, you know, money from other people's pockets, which is exactly what Mandami