THOUGHTCRIME Ep. 42 — Lawfare in Arizona？ Was the A-Bomb Evil？
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 6 minutes
Words per Minute
196.42973
Summary
This week, Jack and Andrew are in the most interesting place in the world: Budapest, Hungary. Do you feel safe walking the streets of Budapest at night? Is it a safe city to live in? And is it a crime-free city?
Transcript
00:00:05.120
DNSA specifically targets the communications of everyone.
00:00:25.840
He has healed himself thanks to the wellness company.
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We have producer Andrew remote and Jack is in the most interesting place.
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I am in Budapest, Hungary right now, believe it or not.
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We've been doing them for about three years now.
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It's actually where Orban comes out and gives us all our marching orders for the year
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and tells us this is how we're going to fight George Soros on every continent
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Obviously, in the United States, we have a lot of work to do.
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Do you feel safe walking the streets of Budapest at night?
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I mean, I'm saying like American cities aren't safe.
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Tanya and I were out last night with some friends.
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But in terms of crime, in terms of the violence that you see,
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This whole like, you know, comment from London Mayor,
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oh, terrorism is part and parcel of living in a big city.
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And you can decide to have clean cities and high trust societies
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And it turns out that people actually really enjoy countries like this.
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Charlie, you'd appreciate the thing that mainly about Budapest
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It's the fact that there are playgrounds everywhere in this city.
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And then you just see giant families walking around everywhere,
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Every time we turn around, there's another one.
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You have a lot of thoughts on this particular topic.
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And they're probably all like domestic disputes.
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My hometown of Sioux Falls once had 19 murders in a year.
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Our good friend, Tyler Boyer, our thought crime co-host.
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So, and if he were trying to go to Budapest, I think he'd be stopped at the airport.
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We encourage all of you to go watch that episode.
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But what's going on is we've already had several of these criminal cases in other states where they have targeted people connected with Trump's presidential campaign in 2020 and also people who served as alternative electoral college slates in 2020.
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They've done it to some but not all of the electors in Georgia as part of the Fulton County case.
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So yesterday, Attorney General Mays, who was elected by, what, 280 votes officially?
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That includes Mark Meadows, Rudy Giuliani, Boris Epstein, a few other people.
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And then also the 11 people who were Trump's electors in the 2020 election.
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Some of these charges are fraudulent schemes and artifices, forgery, tampering with a public record,
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and presentment of false instrument for filing, among other joyous possible crimes that are alleged.
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And all of this is because they acted as alternative electors in 2020.
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And as we explained this morning and as we explained on Twitter yesterday, it's just everything about this is truly just cataclysmically insane and deranged and evil.
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In Arizona, in December of 2020, they had certified that Joe Biden was the winner of the state.
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But Donald Trump's campaign was pursuing various lawsuits.
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But what was widely believed within the Trump camp, but also by many Democrats, was the Electoral College convenes on this one date in December.
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And they're like, well, they're going to convene and they have to cast their votes then.
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And it was widely believed that due to the Electoral Count Act and the Constitution, how they interact, that you had to have electoral votes cast on that date or there was no remedy.
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So they could have later determined, oh, actually, Trump won the state and he should have gotten the electoral votes.
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And they would say, well, you didn't have an Electoral College slate convened to cast the ballots on the 19th.
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At most, they could reject the Biden ones, but you couldn't cast them for Trump.
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And so the thought was, well, we need to have people convene to cast these electoral votes so that if it later is decided in favor of Trump, we'll be able to do this.
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On election night, Nixon wins the state of Hawaii.
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So the Democrats, they meet in December and they say they sign a sheet of paper.
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I can find a picture of the actual thing they signed.
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In fact, I literally think the Arizona electors copied the wording from them.
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Where they say, we, the duly elected and, you know, electors of the state of Hawaii are
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casting our three electoral votes for John F. Kennedy.
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At the time they did this, they were not the certified electors.
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They were not the duly approved electors of the state.
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The recount in Hawaii continued and it actually turned out they were, I don't know if we'll
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say they were objectively right, but it worked for them.
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They concluded, actually, Kennedy won the state by about 115 votes.
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And so they retracted the certification, submitted a new certification, and a judge said, all right,
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And the reason you can swap this out is because there is a democratic elector that was there
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And then they send it to Congress and Nixon, the vice president says, all right, we're counting
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That is what all the Republican alternate electors were looking towards when they did this.
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And this is, as we pointed out, in November 2020, the day after the election, remember
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They hadn't had all the ballots hadn't been found yet.
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And you have Van Jones and you have Lawrence Lessig, a Harvard law professor.
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They come out and they write an article saying, we need to make sure all the ballots are counted
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and they're going to try to slow count this because Trump's ahead.
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So if it's still in dispute, when we get to that December day, both of them should convene
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and they should submit electoral college certifications or not, not certifications, their certificates
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We'll just let it go until the latest possible date.
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This is what a professor at Harvard law says to do.
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And now four years later, because they look at the polls and Donald Trump is winning in
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the state of Arizona and winning in the state of Nevada and winning in the state of Georgia
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and winning in many polls in all those Rust Belt states, they're thinking, oh crap, we need
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We need to throw more charges at all of his people.
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And oh, turns out all the stuff in Hawaii, oh, that was fraud.
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All that stuff Lawrence Lessig, the Harvard law professor, had to do, it's a crime.
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You do this in like crappy African countries where they're just winging it the whole time
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and be like, oh, it turns out, you know, the opposition leader was a criminal the
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Democrat attorney Robert G. Dodge instructs the Democrat electors from Hawaii on how to
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We got to tweet that out with the picture of the Arizona electors, like one by one with
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So, Jack, you've been monitoring this on social media.
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It's a it's a welfare state built on tourism and government money.
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But, Jack, you've been monitoring this from abroad.
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Blake did a really good job of breaking this down.
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We I mean, they keep on kind of outdoing themselves.
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This is worse than any of the other electoral ones they've done in other states.
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And look, I gave Tyler a shout out from the stage this morning here in Budapest.
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And and I said, everybody thinks that it's all fun and games and everybody thinks it's
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just a bunch of rhetoric until they start knocking on your door or knocking on your friends
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And the question is, when are you going to put up and fight?
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When are you going to stop, you know, tone policing people and saying, oh, that's a mean
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Meanwhile, suddenly you got people that are getting indicted for writing their name on
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But as I was talking to more people about it here, I keep in mind, I'm in Eastern Europe.
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So I'm I'm in the Eastern Bloc, the former Eastern Bloc.
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And people came coming up to me afterwards saying, Jack, this is exactly what used to happen
00:12:09.240
They would find some little piece of paper that you signed.
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They would find some paperwork that their judge had declared was, you know, not correct
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And all of a sudden, because your name on it, you were a criminal.
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And, you know, it goes without saying, we say it all the time here on thought crime.
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It's extremely obvious in this case that what they did was they decided that they were going
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to find the 12 people who were the most effective in Arizona politics or Tyler, who's so effective
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at the ballot initiative level when it comes to these chase the votes and chase the ballots
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nationwide, which Turning Point Action is doing.
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And that's why they've decided to pursue something like this, especially on such a cockamamie case
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that's being brought by this agee who, as everyone said, has barely won her own election,
00:13:01.700
which she herself, by the way, played a role in making sure that there were certain votes
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that were not certified in her own election, a huge role where she was preventing votes from being
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And so I would simply say that it shows you the stakes, right?
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Everyone can see when they're going after people who are our own friends, where they're going
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after somebody who, you know, I was kind of, I think I flippantly said on the last podcast
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or maybe two weeks ago, the last thought crime that, oh, it looks like none of us are in the
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Like for once, none of us didn't drive a news cycle.
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And now all of a sudden, you know, this happens to Tyler the next week.
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And it's, it's horrifying, but it's also clarifying to know that like, you know, guys,
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if we lose, this is what's going to happen to all of us.
00:14:01.380
And so anybody out there who's listening, just keep in mind that once, you know, they
00:14:07.700
They will come for you on whatever pretext they can get by again.
00:14:12.700
And as Blake has said, they built the infrastructure for this.
00:14:17.880
We were talking about this in the pre-show, but they spent years building the institutions,
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I mean, with the conservatives that we have on the bench and people say, you know, Trump
00:14:33.720
And obviously that's the federal level, it's the state level.
00:14:35.460
But I just don't see this level of fervor when I talk, when I look at the conservative,
00:14:45.460
That would the same way you see with the Democrats, with the liberals, you know, our guys are more
00:14:49.460
likely to, you know, kind of stick their thumb up or like Amy Coney Barrett.
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You know, she's basically like a pro-life liberal at this point.
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And in terms of the way that she's been ruling on so many different things.
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And the question is like, what is it going to take for us to achieve parity there?
00:15:02.620
So I was talking to a former attorney general yesterday that I won't let me name of a major
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I called him and I said, so when are we going to start indicting them?
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I mean, it's the position we say on this program, because I sent him this and he said, well,
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He said, well, I'd rather lose with honor than win messily.
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I called another guy that was in a very high level law enforcement and he said the exact
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You know me, Blake, when I get fired up, I just start texting and calling everybody.
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Andrew knows that, too, because I just I can't stand mass injustice.
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It's actually one of my favorite things about Charlie.
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It's you have to be a person of agency and action.
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Andrew, this is something that you you and I deal with a lot because these people think
00:16:05.100
so highly of themselves and the law and the administration, administering of it.
00:16:18.220
Andrew, do you think that's a proper way to look at it?
00:16:23.160
I mean, we talk about mutually assured destruction a lot, and I think that there's some there's
00:16:28.660
a reason that we we do that because they have to feel the pain.
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They have to understand that they've unleashed Pandora's box.
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And if you're not willing to press the red button, then they're just going to continue operating
00:16:41.740
And, you know, this is where we get the boomer hate mail in.
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Like if we had this conversation on a college campus with a lot of wingers, you know, these
00:16:52.720
young guys that come out and watch you table, Charlie, they'd be like they would totally
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We are living in an America that is no longer fair.
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That's no longer decent from an institutional level.
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And they would understand, like, yeah, you got to you got to hit back.
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This is not who we are as a country or should be.
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But once you get to a certain age range and I would say probably like 60 and older, they're
00:17:20.980
not prepared to take that to take that leap because it seems dirty.
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And I think Vivek has actually talked about this, is that the conservative mindset is
00:17:34.680
about we're just wired differently than progressives.
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We don't want to we're not necessarily wired to build and restore and build from scratch.
00:17:51.420
But right now we're in a time in our country where the institutions that we've long admired
00:17:55.780
and loved and appreciated that have kept us free and safe, they're corrupted from
00:18:01.140
And so you have to take radical, drastic measures.
00:18:08.360
There's a there's a fair amount of delusion that exists, though, where they say it's not
00:18:14.740
But I will say when we say messy, I do think you want to be careful what I think you have
00:18:24.100
They are careful about laundering bad things they want to do through institutions that
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Even worse than that, through institutions we honor.
00:18:36.180
And so what you do is you don't just throw off some indictment and just roll with it.
00:18:42.740
You make sure you get a lot of law professors to write briefs saying that, you know, if we
00:18:47.640
interpret the law correctly, you can totally do this thing.
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And you make sure that all the journalists are like writing articles about how this is
00:18:59.640
And then you make sure that your indictment is really detailed.
00:19:02.680
And you try to pick things that are most vulnerable.
00:19:07.820
You also pick cases where you can get away with it more.
00:19:10.000
The stuff they did to Alex Jones was really outrageous.
00:19:13.180
But what they did is they picked Alex Jones because they're like, well, he'll be a less
00:19:19.380
And he'll, frankly, he's more likely to do things that will blow up in his face.
00:19:23.820
Do you know why Alex Jones lost his defamation case?
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The judge said, I'm just holding you to lose by default, which happens if you're in court
00:19:39.820
And yet now we have this precedent that you can do all this bad crap to people on the right
00:19:43.640
using defamation law because of this case that we lost through a bad setup.
00:19:47.980
But so what I will say is, and then I'll let Andrew go, is don't just say, we don't want
00:19:53.500
to have, you should indict the left, like throw a thing off this Friday so you can go
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on Fox News and talk about how you're such a great hero for conservatism.
00:20:00.800
What I think you want to do is you have to view this as a, you kind of need to invest in your
00:20:10.340
You might have to say state legislature, expand the size of your AG's office so they can have
00:20:14.380
more lawyers who do prospective investigations, who send subpoenas so we can get, like SPLC is
00:20:23.320
So expand the size of your AG's office and think, well, there's a lot of suspicious stuff
00:20:28.180
Didn't they have a sex scandal that was going to get investigated and then it just never
00:20:35.440
So why don't we start subpoenaing everything the SPLC has ever done and all their communications
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Maybe we could expand our RICO laws and say, oh, you're doing all this stuff to enable people
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who are doing shady stuff at our border that helps illegals come here.
00:20:49.500
Yeah, we're deciding that that's actually a deliberate abetment of criminal behavior at
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You have to think hard about it and then execute on it.
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And if you do it carefully, it's way stronger than if you just do a stunt.
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It shouldn't be a stunt, but it needs to be a strategy.
00:21:10.060
I mean, I don't think when I say indict the left, there is a built-in assumption and it's
00:21:17.720
But the built-in assumption is that there is vast amounts of criminality that is left
00:21:23.200
unprosecuted, uninvestigated from left-wing actors, right?
00:21:28.800
And the amount of collusion between this White House and different prosecutors around the
00:21:32.780
country is something I would love to get involved with.
00:21:36.420
I mean, Charlie, you had that op-ed in The Federalist that went mega viral and it basically
00:21:43.140
presented five or six different options where you could start.
00:21:47.080
One of the things that we struggle with, to your point, Blake, is, and that op-ed, by the
00:21:53.360
way, was an effort to do exactly what you're talking about.
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It was saying, hey, we have to start thinking about this.
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Get this idea into the jet stream on the right.
00:22:04.420
But then here is the problem with what you just said.
00:22:09.660
We have to then get it institutionally supported, right?
00:22:13.440
So you start – then you start building out into the different wings of your party apparatus,
00:22:21.600
We don't have that type of institutional support.
00:22:24.540
And one of our main AG's office is hamstrung, namely Texas, because he needs so much stuff
00:22:33.660
And the local PAs have so much more power in Texas, and that's our largest Republican
00:22:40.620
So what – put meat on the bones because I think you think deeply about these things.
00:22:49.540
How would you see it gaining momentum and support the right way, given the limitations of right-wing
00:22:57.700
You have to want it, but no, I mean, it has to first be – the AG's office is now
00:23:09.960
Dana Nessel in Michigan, state-based attorney general.
00:23:13.580
So you make a list of 10 major Democrat organizations the same way that they isolated the NRA, and
00:23:25.260
Yeah, the NRA one especially, there is – the thing is, New York is a big state, has a lot
00:23:32.880
I think they have over 1,000 attorneys in it, some insane number like that.
00:23:35.980
So it's as large as a major corporate law firm, and they have a lot of lawyers they can
00:23:40.460
borrow because New York's got a million of them.
00:23:42.640
And what they did is they created a unit inside the New York AG's office that was essentially
00:23:51.080
And Mayor Bloomberg, he literally has funded news outlets whose purpose is to write anti-gun
00:23:57.840
stories so that the media can have these anti-gun stories that you can then cite in legal briefings
00:24:07.000
This is not – the stuff they've done against the NRA that we talk about now is because
00:24:10.480
of cases they filed in 2020, based on investigations they started in 2015, a decade-long operation.
00:24:19.000
And I think that's the sort of commitment to a specific cause that the right has to learn
00:24:25.960
You have to – it's kind of the old thing that civilization is planting a tree you'll
00:24:32.220
It's political effectiveness is beginning the crusade that you won't be able to take credit
00:24:40.240
Jack, do you want to care to say that in Missouri?
00:24:44.300
No, I could say I actually comment on that because it's very something similar to what
00:24:50.760
So he was out of power for a couple of years when he wasn't prime minister.
00:24:54.800
And during that time, what he did was – and people know the backstory, of course, Orban
00:25:01.320
basically ran George Soros out of Hungary and had all of the Soros organizations were here
00:25:09.580
And his whole rise to power in Hungary was based around him just railing against George
00:25:16.240
Soros from taking over the country and getting rid of him.
00:25:19.720
But when he was out of the prime ministership for a period before his third term, I believe,
00:25:26.640
if I have that right, what he did is he would go around and he started building the conservative
00:25:35.580
And so he just built these organizations like what Blake is talking about here and he would
00:25:39.760
go to donors and say, hey, we need an organization that's going to do this.
00:25:43.680
And they're going to be focused on like family issues.
00:25:46.420
And this is the department – this is the organization that's on crime.
00:25:51.520
This is our – just whatever it was, whatever the issue was, there was going to be an organization
00:25:55.860
for it so that when he came back into the prime ministership, all of those organizations
00:26:00.780
or like the top people from those organizations were able to just go one over.
00:26:05.520
And suddenly now they're staffing the government's administration.
00:26:12.060
And this is what – and you're starting to see this in nascent stages.
00:26:19.960
But we just don't have enough of it yet in the U.S. to compete with what the left has.
00:26:27.720
Now, fortunately, we have like truth on our side and things like that that are very helpful
00:26:33.500
So in Poland, the PIS, the Law and Justice Party, just got out of power in their prime
00:26:40.020
And the problem was they didn't build any of those organizations when they were in power.
00:26:56.080
And the left just went in and took over everything on the entire airwaves.
00:26:59.760
And they're just in an absolute crisis point right now because it's like, what do we do
00:27:04.900
since we don't have any of those organizations?
00:27:07.440
And so this is why it's kind of revolutionary in a sense – counter-revolutionary, I guess,
00:27:13.600
if you look at it this way – to have organizations like Turning Point.
00:27:16.840
And, oh, by the way, Turning Point action, what just happened to their head?
00:27:21.300
They're trying to slow down our political vehicle.
00:27:30.960
And out of all the different people he could talk about, Mark Meadows, Rudy Giuliani, Jenna
00:27:34.960
Ellis, he isolates Tyler Boyer on the indictment.
00:27:42.120
Can you tell me – I want to talk about Wellness Company.
00:27:47.040
No, and because he didn't have to – I mean, again, I get along with Vaughn.
00:27:53.240
He's always treated us very factually and fairly.
00:27:59.240
He's like, oh, guys, no, no, no, you don't understand.
00:28:01.380
This is a way to, like, stop the political momentum.
00:28:13.420
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00:29:04.500
U.S. scientists, as you well know, worked with Chinese scientists to make an infectious
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Scientists claim it could be 100 times more deadly than COVID.
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Well, make sure that you guys have the things that you need to protect yourself and your
00:29:28.040
Right, and let's just use Tyler Boyer as an example.
00:29:31.100
Tyler Boyer is not going to be a household name to most folks, but he is the RNC committee
00:29:37.520
So he is the one that at every RNC meeting, winter meeting, summer meeting, he's the one
00:29:43.060
that has a vote for Arizona that picks the chair of the party, for example.
00:29:46.420
He is the person who is not only one of these fake electors indicted, but also RNC committee
00:29:53.520
men, but he's also the chief operating officer of Turning Point USA, which is the Charlie
00:29:59.040
Kirk organization, the Trump-aligned organization that has garnered millions of dollars and has
00:30:04.560
effectively taken over the Arizona Republican Party in recent years.
00:30:09.240
Tyler Boyer, Charlie Kirk, they're close with the likes of Carrie Lake, Abe Hamaday, who
00:30:14.380
was the opponent to Chris Mays in the attorney general's race in 2022 and was an election
00:30:28.680
Well, but I just, again, I just want to say one thing.
00:30:33.040
It's easy for kind of me to go do the show and be like, oh, it's all about Turning Point.
00:30:38.220
And then I watched MSNBC last night, and I'm like, okay, it's kind of-
00:30:43.840
If you say Turning Point's important, you know, you're talking in your book, but if they're-
00:30:47.520
When they say Turning Point's important, yeah, okay, all right.
00:30:50.380
I mean, it's like, I didn't, I was literally, as the indictment dropped, you know, supporting
00:30:55.100
Tyler, called up, Tyler's like, we got your back, whole thing, you know, we're taking
00:31:00.600
And I turn on MSNBC, boom, Vaughan is talking there, I was like, okay.
00:31:05.280
All right, speaking of atom bombs, where we just went through an atom bomb in Arizona of
00:31:09.920
an indictment, Tucker Carlson has really started an incredible debate on the right.
00:31:16.740
Do we have Tucker's interview with Joe, to kind of-
00:31:22.300
Okay, just, this is Tucker Carlson on the Joe Rogan program.
00:31:27.640
I thought there were some topics that Tucker might have, you know, that are taken out of
00:31:33.220
I personally thought the interview was great, and before I get into 77, there's a neighbor
00:31:40.520
He said, Charlie, I've listened to the Rogan-Tucker interview three times.
00:31:44.760
And I was like, really, Trump wasn't even really mentioned in this.
00:31:49.000
So I just want everyone to know that Tucker's impact on this interview, at least anecdotally
00:31:52.820
on the micro, has really been impactful, especially when he's talking about the populist stuff.
00:31:58.020
Well, I love, by the way, that people on my side, I'll just say, I'll just admit it, on
00:32:04.920
the right, you know, have spent the last 80 years defending, dropping nuclear weapons
00:32:15.300
If you can't, well, if we hadn't done that, then this, that, the other thing, that was
00:32:20.100
Like, no, it's wrong to drop nuclear weapons on people.
00:32:22.800
And if you find yourself arguing that it's a good thing to drop nuclear weapons on people,
00:32:33.200
I have always found a moral problem with dropping the atom bombs, plural, on Japan.
00:32:38.260
I've always been argued from authority from people.
00:32:41.660
It would have killed a lot of millions of Americans.
00:32:43.260
I just had a moral problem with indiscriminate mass killing.
00:32:55.140
And I was like, OK, he's probably going to be an atom bomb defender.
00:32:59.540
And that actually comforts me because I've always had this opinion.
00:33:02.440
I just failed to believe that we in America have to resort to, I don't want to say genocide,
00:33:12.700
Just to set the stage, because this is starting a big debate.
00:33:17.840
He had a tweet that 6 million people viewed where he says, in response to what Tucker did.
00:33:25.720
People who deny the moon landing or suggest America is evil for its use of atomic weapons
00:33:34.040
But people who suggest America is bad for using A-bombs actually hate this country.
00:33:41.020
I don't think he meant what he wrote in a sense.
00:33:43.180
I think he meant that some people that say these things hate the country.
00:33:51.340
I think the atom bomb is evil and I love America.
00:33:52.880
There are plenty of people who say the A-bomb is bad because they think America is bad.
00:34:01.520
But I do think it's very common to have the opposite, which is America is a good country
00:34:09.040
So therefore, that was a good thing because America is a good country.
00:34:17.060
But the question itself is very interesting because people will argue, as they say, that
00:34:22.600
if we didn't use it, more Americans would have died.
00:34:28.860
And I think what is the interesting pill to swallow is even if that was true, I think
00:34:37.780
And what it is, it's as Tucker says, what was the A-bomb?
00:34:41.140
We're taking this insanely powerful weapon and we're just deploying it against a city,
00:34:47.540
a city that is by nature overwhelmingly civilians, you know, just old people, women, children,
00:34:54.820
non-combatants of all sort, and just deploying it against a city.
00:35:00.380
You can say under a utilitarian calculus that, you know, that's okay.
00:35:05.000
But that sort of calculus is fundamentally a, like, it's a modernist view and it's kind
00:35:13.700
Every group of people who have done atrocities in history have said that it is justified
00:35:17.600
because in the long run, the greater good for the greater number of people justifies
00:35:24.980
And what I would say is when you look at periods of our history, which were, I would say, more
00:35:29.240
informed by Christian principle, you would not do this.
00:35:32.860
And consider General Sherman, March to the Sea, famous act of total war.
00:35:38.780
General Sherman's guidelines say, he says, okay, here's what you do.
00:35:42.620
You take enough food that a person can live on to survive and you give it to those people.
00:35:57.400
Well, I don't know how perfect it was in practice.
00:36:01.400
I once looked at the census for Georgia in 1860 and 1870, and I looked at all the counties
00:36:08.440
that Sherman walked through and they all had higher populations in 1870.
00:36:12.680
So he definitely didn't depopulate them, I will say.
00:36:16.420
And this, but you see this, you know, in the American revolution, there are not, there are
00:36:20.620
a few atrocities, but there are just not mass civilian killings.
00:36:24.100
The British do not obliterate Boston and kill everyone in it, even when they're occupying the
00:36:29.120
city and in the civil war, there are atrocities occasionally, but we do not obliterate Richmond.
00:36:35.720
We do not just send cavalrymen riding through the South and just kill everyone they see.
00:36:41.560
And one of the developments you see of the 20th century is total war, which is anyone who's
00:36:46.760
in the opposing country is fair game to be killed for any reason because they're part of
00:36:53.080
And the powers that embrace this are Nazi Germany, are the Soviet Union.
00:36:58.780
It is, and then the people who most sympathize with that are the people in America who sympathize
00:37:06.080
And it is fundamentally against Christian principle to say, I think it's St. Paul says, you know,
00:37:11.380
woe to those who say, let us do evil, that good may result from this.
00:37:16.360
And so you, you just, like Tucker says, you just don't do that.
00:37:20.420
And so I just, I want to get other people in on this really quick, but Blake, as quickly
00:37:23.860
as you can, what do you say to the argument that people are emailing us in and will also
00:37:28.140
email us in Japan would have never stopped fighting unless they were faced with a world
00:37:35.740
We would have had to put in millions of American troops, hundreds of thousands would have died
00:37:40.360
and no one's defending the atom bomb as being a great thing, but it was like a necessary
00:37:45.320
tragedy to end what would have been even more bloody for all people involved.
00:37:50.520
At that point, you can get into these details on it and that gets into additional moral questions.
00:37:55.780
For example, Japan was putting out feelers where they say, we want to surrender, but we
00:38:00.240
just want a guarantee that like we won't hang the emperor because he's sacred.
00:38:04.620
And we were saying, no, it has to be unconditional.
00:38:08.960
And then in the end, we kept the emperor anyway.
00:38:11.140
So we had the war go on a longer length of time.
00:38:14.700
So they were teasing out a surrender before the bomb.
00:38:17.660
Like there was, there were attempts at negotiation and we were saying unconditional only.
00:38:21.920
That was a major thing we insisted for both Germany and Japan.
00:38:24.840
And there were reasons to do this, but it is noteworthy that the biggest sticking point
00:38:29.560
is something we didn't actually insist upon in the end.
00:38:33.460
I think you could also just point out there are, you know, steps between use the atom bomb,
00:38:38.780
not at all, and use it on a city with 300,000 people in it.
00:38:42.880
For example, what if we just said, hey, Japan, go look at Tokyo Bay tomorrow.
00:38:47.620
And then we drop the atom bomb in Tokyo, Tokyo Bay.
00:39:05.620
Well, I'll ask Blake a question before I chime in.
00:39:10.640
I've heard this argument more recently that the reason for the A-bombs was sort of meant
00:39:18.360
as a, and I don't know how historical this is, but there may have been some writing about
00:39:22.000
it at the time, that it was sort of meant as a message, not necessarily to Japan, but actually
00:39:30.040
So people have to keep in mind, the Soviet Union has just occupied Japanese-controlled
00:39:35.220
Manchuria on the Chinese mainland at this point and was threatening an invasion of the Japanese
00:39:42.200
So obviously the Japanese home islands are never invaded.
00:39:45.100
The U.S. had done the island hopping throughout the South Pacific with the Huia U.S. Navy.
00:39:49.200
And so there's this theory, and I don't even know how historical it is, but there's a theory
00:39:57.540
that because of the Cold War, people could realize that sort of like World War II was
00:40:01.980
ending and the new competition was going to be between the U.S. and the Soviets, so that
00:40:10.740
I think that's an example of where you get like liberal arguments against the bomb, because
00:40:18.780
I don't believe there's strong evidence this is what motivated it.
00:40:22.260
This is after the fact where a lot of people who sympathize with the Soviet Union and don't
00:40:25.940
like America will say, America did this bad thing just because they hated the Soviets and
00:40:32.860
And we're also not indicting the intentions here.
00:40:36.220
If you look at the reasons they did it, like what Truman himself said, is he said, I'm
00:40:43.300
We developed a weapon to win that war, and it would be insane for me not to use that weapon.
00:40:47.840
And Truman's a very straightforward guy and everything you can read about him.
00:41:01.600
So why would I not use this other weapon that could help us end the war?
00:41:09.560
So here is what I wanted to weigh in on, and it's kind of what you just mentioned there.
00:41:15.880
This was not – so a lot of people think that the A-bomb, because it is the first and only
00:41:21.440
time, like the two times, that the A-bomb or any type of nuclear weapon was used in warfare.
00:41:28.180
But this also wasn't the only time that cities were indiscriminately bombed through the use
00:41:34.580
of strategic or carpet bombing in World War II, certainly not by the Allies who conducted
00:41:43.000
But even, of course, the Germans were bombing the heck out of London, too.
00:41:46.220
So indiscriminate bombing was something that had already gone on to quite an extent up to
00:41:52.080
And that is not to get into the morality of that, but I am pointing out that this isn't
00:42:00.760
I mean, what Jack just said factors into my thinking, I think, a lot.
00:42:05.880
I think in general, I think it's a really bad moral conundrum to get stuck in where you're
00:42:12.140
defending the use of nuclear weapons in an armed conflict on civilians.
00:42:17.160
It was a quarter of a million people upwards, mostly civilians, died in Japan.
00:42:23.140
And that's incredible, if you think about it, a quarter of a million people.
00:42:27.600
Um, and so I think that's terrible, but I've always thought of it as like the only reason
00:42:33.920
it happened is because it was the first time, you know, I, when I think about it historically,
00:42:43.460
It was as a kid, I remember thinking because, you know, they just got the weapon, right?
00:42:48.460
It was the, it had only been around for a very short amount of time and they used it once
00:42:53.980
and we realized the horror and the tragedy of it won't be used again.
00:42:58.320
So I sort of give them a little bit of pass because of the moment in history it happened.
00:43:03.760
But you, to Jack's point, I mean, Dresden, there was, uh, 25,000 civilians were killed
00:43:10.660
So if you just think about the fact that this was going on and it was going both ways.
00:43:15.480
And I think if you put yourself in, in that moment of time and you, you realize just how
00:43:21.040
brutal the, the, the enemy was, I'm sure there was a, an emotion, you know, humans are emotional,
00:43:28.080
So there's a place where you can say rationally killing civilians is bad.
00:43:31.760
Totally agree a hundred percent, but you're coming at the end of a long and bloody conflict
00:43:36.240
where, uh, Axis powers have tried to take over the world and you're wanting to send a really
00:43:48.200
We have hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers, millions on the allied side, and you get to
00:43:59.160
Um, so in the moment I have, I have some historically, I have some grace on that moment, but I think the
00:44:05.480
lesson should be, you know, let's not do this again.
00:44:09.580
This is actually a morally problematic thing to do.
00:44:16.440
I mean, I think that's kind of where I net out on it.
00:44:18.460
I have some grace on the men and women that made that decision, mostly men.
00:44:23.840
And I need to talk about noble gold investments.
00:44:25.340
I want to talk about how Tucker connected all the dots though, that because he didn't just
00:44:31.400
He connected the atom bomb as the, like the, the, almost the beginning of the new Testament
00:44:40.100
That was his argument that it made us seem that we are gods that that I think that's
00:44:45.180
being lost in the conversation more of, do you hate the country or not?
00:44:47.900
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Do you, what do you think of Tucker's thought here?
00:45:38.680
We said that created in the greatest generation and then boomers, a, uh, hubris, a pride.
00:45:47.420
Once we dropped the bomb, we felt as if we were like God.
00:45:51.340
Is that a good summary of Tucker's argument, Blake?
00:45:53.440
He, he said that repeatedly, Jack, you heard that as well.
00:46:04.120
And Blake and I have done, uh, podcasts about sort of the sixties and how the sixties came
00:46:10.140
about, and you're right, actually, there is a huge amount and Tucker's right.
00:46:14.320
I should say there's a huge amount of hubris that comes about because of them.
00:46:18.400
But I would also say that, uh, keep in mind that it's also the space race going on at this
00:46:24.840
You're also talking about in the fifties and then even more so into the sixties, you have
00:46:28.800
the height of the cold war, uh, because once the Rosenbergs, uh, steal the bomb through,
00:46:34.220
um, through, uh, the theft of the Manhattan project, they're then, uh, duly executed for
00:46:39.180
doing so, giving it to the Soviet union that, uh, suddenly one, because this goes away very
00:46:45.520
So this idea, if there was a level of hubris because of it, it goes away quickly because
00:46:51.280
And then, so there becomes this like paranoia as well about who's got the bomb, who's going
00:46:58.540
And this is where you get like the, you know, the under the table, uh, you know, missile drills
00:47:12.380
Um, but there's also a lot of paranoia as well.
00:47:14.260
And that, that I think bleeds into a lot of the cold war would kind of be my response
00:47:20.540
And, you know, really the one interesting piece of it, and I'll just say this from having,
00:47:24.560
you know, lived for an eight in Asia for so many years is that what's interesting is that
00:47:29.020
when I'm in Japan and, you know, speaking as American, when I'm there, the only time I
00:47:34.140
ever really hear this come up, anything about the atomic bomb, I'm sure they have, uh, memorials
00:47:38.940
to it and you can go and it's more about just the horror of living through it, but you don't
00:47:43.340
really face any animosity as an American number one.
00:47:47.080
I mean, if you go to Japan, you're just not going to see anyone having an issue with you
00:47:50.880
being an American, even though, yes, we are the country that, that bombed, uh, that bombed
00:47:55.500
But then number two, the only place you will ever hear it from are like the extreme, like
00:48:00.040
ultra nationalists, like bring back the emperor kind of, you know, get the United States
00:48:07.500
And those guys who are like a very small sliver of Japanese society.
00:48:11.240
And so it's, what's interesting to me is that we'll, we'll tie ourselves in knots over this.
00:48:16.300
Whereas the Japanese really do kind of by and large, and, you know, not to speak for the
00:48:21.140
Japanese, but in my, uh, in my experience there, it seems they really do just view it
00:48:26.440
as an act as, as, as, excuse me, as Andrew was just saying, who's filling in for, uh, our
00:48:31.660
dear friend Tyler, uh, just an act of war that was done through the course of the war
00:48:36.540
and it happened and it was a long time ago and that's it.
00:48:39.720
I just, I'll, I'll close this topic with how Blake said it.
00:48:42.580
I refuse to believe that there were no other creative options that we could have employed.
00:48:48.920
We were in the driver's seat before we, the West, we America just start bombing civilians.
00:48:55.360
I think, I think it's, I don't think it's a good moment in American history.
00:49:01.980
Well, no, I, I, I think there is, um, almost a metaphysical element to this, not to sound
00:49:07.340
too in the clouds or, or fringe about it, but I, I have to believe that when you unleash
00:49:13.740
a force, uh, a, a, a destructive force like that on to the planet, that there are unintended
00:49:22.300
consequences that we cannot even begin to fathom.
00:49:26.360
Uh, you know, whether that, I mean, you just don't know where those kinds of,
00:49:30.360
things will work out in art and architecture and, in, in your country and the spirit of
00:49:42.700
He thinks that it was like, he thought it was the end of American ingenuity.
00:49:46.300
What I want, I just want to end with a few quotes.
00:49:48.040
Cause I think a lot of people aren't aware of this, that in the first days after it was
00:49:52.260
dropped, it was overwhelmingly on the right and with conservatives who said, this is a
00:49:57.500
morally questionable thing, this, or, or it's just wrong.
00:50:00.160
And Truman was a Democrat and Truman was a Democrat, but don't obsess over the parties
00:50:10.880
Bishop, canonized, Bishop Fulton Sheen said that the atom bomb, I'm going to read this
00:50:18.180
Fulton Sheen said that the atomic bombing was quote, our national sin.
00:50:22.320
And he argued that the counterculture came from it.
00:50:24.740
Father James Gillis was a Catholic priest as well.
00:50:28.580
He called it quote, the most powerful blow ever delivered against Christian civilization
00:50:37.580
Uh, no, this was, uh, father, uh, James Gillis, another Catholic priest, uh, at the time
00:50:41.020
who was like a conservative, uh, George Schuyler was a, uh, contributor to national review
00:50:49.000
And he said, uh, let me see, not satisfied with being able to kill people by the thousand.
00:50:54.980
We have achieved the supreme triumph of being able to slaughter whole cities at a time.
00:50:59.460
Is there anything from, uh, from human events magazine?
00:51:05.720
I'm reading this article by a guy named Andrew Cusack.
00:51:07.880
Just, I want to shout him out because he, uh, helped change my mind on this.
00:51:11.020
But, uh, there's another guy, there were military voices, uh, Admiral William Leahy said,
00:51:15.920
uh, it was, we have adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the dark age.
00:51:24.540
Wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.
00:51:29.420
I think I forget who, who it was that you quoted.
00:51:34.040
Uh, but I completely, you said, somebody said it led to the counter revolution, the, the,
00:51:42.260
I mean, I, I, I don't have a direct line between a and B there.
00:51:46.000
I, uh, and he probably has had it all worked out how it, how that happened, but that's
00:51:53.000
It's like, you know, we've talked about it on the show before, Charlie, I know you and
00:51:58.020
It's like, you know, uh, Osama bin Laden set to destroy, set out to destroy the American
00:52:08.940
But like, but at the same time, like how, how successful in 50 years are we going to
00:52:13.940
look back and say how, how successful Osama bin Laden was at, at getting us to destroy
00:52:18.840
ourselves and pour our wealth and treasure, uh, into blood and sand in the, in the middle
00:52:24.000
East and create all this domestic, you know, infighting chaos.
00:52:30.640
It's like, okay, we won that battle, but what were the unintended consequences?
00:52:35.320
What, what, how did we stay in the next generation, uh, with this, with this moment in history
00:52:41.760
that's so cataclysmic now, I, like I said, I have grace on the men that made this decision
00:52:45.980
because of the moment they were in and because of the evil they thought they were fighting.
00:52:57.820
If I can do it, just, uh, just not, not to do my own horn, but just do, to say where it
00:53:01.760
So I did pull up, so human events magazine, uh, of which I'm currently the senior editor,
00:53:09.080
And, uh, we have this quote here just weeks after Japan surrender, an article published
00:53:13.840
in conservative magazine, human events, intended that America's atomic destruction of Hiroshima
00:53:20.260
might be morally more shameful and more degrading than Japan's indefensible and infamous act
00:53:30.280
And they were saying that, I want to be clear, they're saying this at the time.
00:53:33.020
These are the people who were fighting the war, who had family members and friends fighting
00:53:38.100
So this is not just judging it 50 years after the fact when it's easy.
00:53:45.240
So let's continue on this Tucker, uh, through line here.
00:53:47.700
So, so Blake, you, your particular can comment on this, but there was a lot of blowback to
00:53:57.740
I think, I don't know if that's right in my micro world.
00:54:01.620
I can think of a couple dozen examples of people who loved it, but Twitter didn't love
00:54:11.880
Well, so it wasn't, it definitely wasn't just the atomic bomb thing.
00:54:19.020
They, he said the theory of evolution on your computer.
00:54:23.960
No, there was, no, there was kiddie porn on your website, on your computer from the
00:54:33.960
He said that if you say the wrong thing, the Intel agencies put that on your,
00:54:37.400
Which happened to Cheryl Atkinson, which actually happened to Cheryl Atkinson, the journalist.
00:54:44.380
And she's got all the documents and it's been suppressed.
00:54:49.520
And she's like a normal, regular, like, wasn't she a CBS reporter before?
00:54:59.060
She's not the most conservative buyer brand anything.
00:55:06.680
They say, let's kind of, I want Blake to take the fifth on this right now because he's
00:55:15.720
Jack, do you think it was smart for Tucker, for the movement to go into that kind of a
00:55:23.640
I think absolutely because 30 to 40 million people have probably listened or have watched
00:55:29.440
Your thoughts, Jack, on the Tucker Rogan insane viral conversation.
00:55:35.500
Well, so, so there's a couple of thoughts, right?
00:55:42.340
I can understand where people, some people are coming from in good faith if they're criticizing
00:55:46.960
it and saying, saying like, people are used to seeing Tucker Carlson slay dragon.
00:55:54.820
They want him going after their most hated, virulent politicians and leftists and leftist
00:56:02.460
ideas and saying the things that shouldn't be said and talking about, ooh, the great replacement
00:56:08.360
or, you know, ooh, racial crime stats or something like that.
00:56:12.780
And that's, that's kind of what they're looking for.
00:56:14.580
Whereas Tucker himself, his interests don't necessarily align with that all the time.
00:56:20.520
But there are times where he wants to explore different things.
00:56:23.760
And I think people need to understand that Tucker's done a ton for the movement and Tucker's
00:56:28.680
got more achievements than most people in the movement combined.
00:56:33.420
And so if he wants to take some time to, you know, explore different areas, he's more than
00:56:39.380
And furthermore, he isn't like duty bound to discuss certain things or be a certain, you
00:56:52.760
But at the same time, I guess what I could say is that there are also people who are
00:56:58.320
sort of commenting in bad faith, because I do think that with Tucker, with Tucker leaving
00:57:03.700
his position at Fox, it created a situation where, you know, he had been sort of the undisputed
00:57:10.260
top dog of like conservative slash alternate media.
00:57:15.100
And now it almost seems like there's a vacuum and you see other groups and I'm not going
00:57:21.840
to, you know, call out anyone specifically, but you can certainly see other groups viewing
00:57:26.240
the ability to sort of attack Tucker now as a way of trying to usurp that position, which
00:57:35.480
So I would, if there's anything bad for the movement, I'd say it's what's bad for the movement
00:57:38.920
is this like petty sniping, which just comes across as jealousy.
00:57:44.180
But, but Blake, what, what is wrong with, I mean, Rogan traditionally doesn't have political
00:57:54.140
He has, he's had James Lindsay, Christopher Ruffo, Riley Gaines in the last, like this
00:58:02.440
He said Alex Jones, but I would say this is his most, he's had Ben Shapiro and Matt Walsh.
00:58:06.660
It was the one he had on and it caused them to like demand that, um, Spotify, it was
00:58:17.660
So it was, it was, cause Malone is so talented and he just doesn't BS and he just looked Joe
00:58:22.900
in the eye and he said, the vaccines are a depopulation agent, Joe.
00:58:25.900
And it was just, that was during, I'm not saying I disagree or agree at that, Blake.
00:58:30.300
I'm just saying he said it and Spotify lost it.
00:58:35.880
So, uh, but why wouldn't, what is, what, what, what was your, what is your criticism
00:58:42.840
Well, I think when I just, when I talk to people and some of them are sort of disappointed
00:58:49.880
by Tucker post Fox is I think they, it's always, it's not that Tucker does anything new post
00:58:58.540
Fox, but he talks, I think proportionally more about stuff that just, it feels almost off
00:59:06.100
Like if, what are your big issues in the 2024 election?
00:59:15.960
And those are all perfectly good things to talk about.
00:59:19.260
I think people have the sense that Tucker's biggest talent was he could zero in on what
00:59:25.000
He did that in the interview though, to be fair though.
00:59:27.080
There was a, there was a, when he got to the Ukraine foreign aid stuff, but you would say
00:59:33.960
I think, or at least I think it's, it's a matter of proportion when he would talk about
00:59:37.960
aliens on Fox, it would be in the E block and it's like, Oh, you do fun stuff late in
00:59:43.560
And one of the things is, Oh yeah, it's aliens.
00:59:47.520
It was very much like a funny self-aware thing.
00:59:49.680
There would be a funny aerial phenomenon where the sky would like have blue lights in it because
01:00:00.680
And then, but now it's, you know, now it, it seems like a bigger focus.
01:00:05.440
Um, when proportionally it's like, we have, it feels like we're in a big crisis right
01:00:13.300
now, not just with Ukraine, but with the border and with all this like legal overreach from
01:00:21.420
And it's sort of in the past when you had a weekly show, Tucker would be there and he
01:00:26.400
would come in and he'd be like, he'd be the guy taking point on all the reasons that
01:00:30.340
this Arizona indictment of Tyler is super sinister.
01:00:33.560
He would say all the things we said on our show and he would be one of the first to say
01:00:37.440
it and now he'll probably get to it, but he probably won't be one of the first to get
01:00:41.480
And he might only do one episode on it and then nothing on it for weeks at a time.
01:00:47.660
Andrew, you're, you're the PR messaging genius.
01:00:53.220
I think it's more of a structural issue of not having a daily show because the news really
01:01:00.280
It's like, we know the lead, I would say 80% of the time, because there's a breaking
01:01:07.080
And so when you're doing a nightly show, he has to hit that, that story that everybody
01:01:13.000
But right now he's not bound to a, a, a, a publishing schedule.
01:01:16.920
Basically, he kind of just releases content when it's ready.
01:01:22.360
Second thing, Charlie, I listened to the majority of that interview.
01:01:25.380
I didn't listen to the whole, whole Tucker Rogan piece, but to your point, there is large chunks
01:01:31.900
of it that are, are right on the, on the money, uh, where he's, he's dialing in, he's bringing
01:01:37.360
that moral clarity on the truly important stuff.
01:01:40.660
But what the internet does is it clips it and it clips different pieces of it.
01:01:44.940
I mean, your account was maybe potentially part of this, right?
01:01:48.480
You, the, the building seven, I think your, your tweet did like three or 4 million impressions
01:01:53.500
on Twitter because it was interesting, but that doesn't mean that that, that was the,
01:01:57.160
the predominant, uh, topic that was discussed in that three hour interview.
01:02:01.540
It was, it was just an interesting little clip, but then the internet does what it does.
01:02:05.580
And then it, and it makes it out like that was the, the vast majority of the discussion.
01:02:10.820
So I think it's a, it's a structural issue, but, um, you know, I, I, I, I think one other
01:02:17.920
thing, the Israel topic when he had the, uh, the, what was it?
01:02:25.100
The, I think he was a Lutheran actually, but it was the, the Christian guy from, um, it
01:02:34.220
And then there was also the, um, the Russian grocery store thing.
01:02:39.120
So there, there's been a few little incidents that have been leading up to this and people
01:02:44.800
have started ankle biting at Tucker and I think it's just starting to gather momentum.
01:02:49.540
Um, and, and this was just sort of like, you see all of these, these different weird ways
01:02:59.740
So his mind goes in all these curious directions and yeah, it's sort of, it's creating this,
01:03:04.020
this atmosphere of a lot of noise and they, they do miss the nightly hitting the main story,
01:03:10.680
Um, but to Jack's point, Tucker's Tucker, um, he's, he's won the right to do this.
01:03:17.660
And, uh, to the extent that other people are going to criticize him, it's, it's bound to
01:03:21.720
happen, but it's, um, it's a lot of like clout chasing in my opinion, but I, it's, it's a,
01:03:29.040
Here's what I probably actually think happened is that they were, cause they spent some time
01:03:34.040
He was down in Austin and they did like a comedy show.
01:03:36.440
And then, you know, this was sort of, it was like a weekend, like a long weekend in
01:03:43.820
And I, uh, I think I've ever met Rogan actually.
01:03:47.640
Um, but I think what probably happened cause I've been around stuff like this a lot is that
01:03:51.380
they were probably just having a lot of off screen conversations about those topics and
01:03:59.180
I don't think there's any, like, well, if you've spent any time, yeah, if you've spent
01:04:05.600
any time with Tucker and, and I haven't probably spent as much as Blake or you Jack, but I've
01:04:10.300
spent some that it's just the, well, these crazy conversations come up and you talk about
01:04:17.640
random stuff and it's really, really fascinating.
01:04:19.980
And Tucker is incredibly charming and, and extremely fascinating.
01:04:23.740
And it just does come up cause he's a really curious guy.
01:04:26.340
The second thing I will say, and Jack, you and Charlie know this firsthand is you become
01:04:35.940
He's been built up to be this, this thing, this, he represents the movement and he's a,
01:04:41.600
he's the intellectual vanguard of the populist conservative movement and all of these things.
01:04:46.540
And then all of a sudden there's, uh, unbeknownst to him, there's now rules applied to him where
01:04:50.900
he's not able to sort of be a human and, and indulge in, in random conversations.
01:04:55.660
This happens to you and Charlie, you, you come on the show and you talk, you talk about
01:05:02.000
And all of a sudden it's like getting clipped by, you know, the Biden campaign is like Trump
01:05:07.100
surrogate, uh, uh, you know, Jack, Trump surrogate, Charlie Kirk.
01:05:13.640
Like, yeah, we support him, but we also have our own life and our own show and our own things
01:05:19.200
Um, anyway, so it, it, it's partly like, like people forget, dude, the Tucker, even after
01:05:24.660
he left his show, I mean, just played this massively outsized role in the presidential
01:05:35.300
And yeah, that Iowa forum where he just, he just ended Mike Pence's career, his entire
01:05:39.680
career right on stage, uh, with his Iraq war questioning just destroyed it.
01:05:44.200
It was, there's no coming back and Mike Pence found that out, uh, in short order later.
01:05:54.040
Um, but of course it's the world we live in, right?
01:05:56.120
Because we live in a constant state of dopamine rush of, it doesn't matter what you did in
01:06:08.040
It's like, it's like the Ramones were together for 25 years and they kept making the same record,
01:06:13.900
And that's fine because if they wanted to do that and be the Ramones, that's fine too.
01:06:17.660
But you know, other bands go in different directions at different times.
01:06:21.580
And if the music is good, then why shouldn't they be allowed to do that?
01:06:25.520
All right, everybody, uh, until next week, we'll keep committing thought crimes.