Human Events Daily with Jack Posobiec - THOUGHTCRIME Ep. 42 — Lawfare in Arizona？ Was the A-Bomb Evil？

00:00:00.140 From the age of big brother.

00:00:02.500 If they want to get you, they'll get you.

00:00:05.120 DNSA specifically targets the communications of everyone.

00:00:09.040 They're collecting your communications.

00:00:19.300 Okay, everybody, happy Thought Crime Thursday.

00:00:22.920 You know who I am.

00:00:24.020 Blake is back with us in person.

00:00:25.840 He has healed himself thanks to the wellness company.

00:00:27.880 We have producer Andrew remote and Jack is in the most interesting place.

00:00:33.200 Jack, are you in Hungary?

00:00:35.380 That is true.

00:00:36.500 I am in Budapest, Hungary right now, believe it or not.

00:00:40.260 I'm told that there's an event happening.

00:00:41.920 What are you doing in Hungary?

00:00:44.900 It's the annual CPAC Hungary.

00:00:47.780 We've been doing them for about three years now.

00:00:50.640 Orban comes. 0.93

00:00:51.200 It's actually where Orban comes out and gives us all our marching orders for the year

00:00:55.160 and tells us this is how we're going to fight George Soros on every continent

00:00:59.100 so that he won't be able to get in anywhere.

00:01:01.280 Obviously, in the United States, we have a lot of work to do.

00:01:03.940 Do you feel safe walking the streets of Budapest at night?

00:01:07.060 I mean, is it a relatively safe city?

00:01:09.720 Is that a joke?

00:01:10.780 I mean, I'm saying like American cities aren't safe.

00:01:14.300 Are you kidding me?

00:01:16.640 Tanya and I were out last night with some friends.

00:01:21.700 And I mean, you can walk across the city.

00:01:24.280 I've done it so many times here in Budapest.

00:01:26.380 My fourth or fifth time here.

00:01:28.340 And I mean, it's completely safe.

00:01:32.000 You will have no issue.

00:01:33.300 I mean, it's a city, right?

00:01:34.620 I mean, there's cars and stuff.

00:01:35.940 But in terms of crime, in terms of the violence that you see,

00:01:38.300 no, it just doesn't exist here.

00:01:40.820 It is not part of this world in any way.

00:01:43.280 This whole like, you know, comment from London Mayor,

00:01:48.340 oh, terrorism is part and parcel of living in a big city.

00:01:51.100 No, it's not.

00:01:52.000 Actually, it's not true.

00:01:52.920 It's a choice.

00:01:53.860 It is a choice that you can choose away from.

00:01:56.400 And you can decide to have clean cities and high trust societies

00:02:00.900 and have law and order.

00:02:02.500 And it's very simple.

00:02:03.680 And it turns out that people actually really enjoy countries like this.

00:02:07.480 And people are actually happy.

00:02:09.060 And families are, by the way,

00:02:10.300 Charlie, you'd appreciate the thing that mainly about Budapest

00:02:13.060 is not so much the safety.

00:02:14.180 It's the fact that there are playgrounds everywhere in this city.

00:02:18.160 Huge initiative by the government.

00:02:20.180 So you see playgrounds everywhere.

00:02:22.140 I'm talking like literally every street,

00:02:25.100 every block has got a playground on it.

00:02:27.100 And then you just see giant families walking around everywhere,

00:02:30.280 like four kids, five kids, six kids.

00:02:32.380 Every time we turn around, there's another one.

00:02:35.180 So let's get into it.

00:02:37.440 This is the big Arizona news.

00:02:40.120 Blake, what is going on here?

00:02:41.400 You have a lot of thoughts on this particular topic.

00:02:43.840 I did a whole hour on it.

00:02:45.360 Oh, yeah.

00:02:45.880 I'm going to come and glue it really quick.

00:02:47.640 Yes.

00:02:47.940 Because we mentioned the crime thing.

00:02:50.360 Budapest has 1.7 million people.

00:02:53.360 Number of murders it had in 2020.

00:02:55.300 That's the most recent year I can see.

00:02:57.080 13.

00:02:57.980 Are you kidding me?

00:02:58.660 And they're probably all like domestic disputes.

00:03:00.360 Yeah, exactly.

00:03:01.600 And then 13 murders.

00:03:04.480 Unbelievable.

00:03:04.980 My hometown of Sioux Falls once had 19 murders in a year.

00:03:08.180 Are you serious?

00:03:08.620 Yeah.

00:03:09.360 It's that dangerous.

00:03:10.000 2020 was really bad.

00:03:11.380 Wow.

00:03:12.080 A lot of domestic disputes.

00:03:13.600 Indeed.

00:03:14.260 Indeed.

00:03:14.560 Anyway, first topic, of course.

00:03:16.040 Yes.

00:03:16.640 Our good friend, Tyler Boyer, our thought crime co-host.

00:03:19.620 Yeah, who is not here right now.

00:03:20.900 Who is not here right now.

00:03:21.620 Talking to lawyers.

00:03:22.600 Wait, guys, how isn't Tyler here?

00:03:24.960 The man is coming after our man, Tyler.

00:03:28.000 That's right.

00:03:28.700 Is he coming later?

00:03:30.520 I don't think he's coming later.

00:03:32.320 He has lots of lawyer meetings.

00:03:34.380 So, and if he were trying to go to Budapest, I think he'd be stopped at the airport.

00:03:38.320 So, Blake, what's going on here?

00:03:40.660 This is now national news.

00:03:43.000 Walk us, you know, break it down for us.

00:03:44.700 All right.

00:03:44.860 As you said, we lied with it this morning.

00:03:46.960 Talked about it for a whole hour.

00:03:47.980 We encourage all of you to go watch that episode.

00:03:49.860 But what's going on is we've already had several of these criminal cases in other states where they have targeted people connected with Trump's presidential campaign in 2020 and also people who served as alternative electoral college slates in 2020.

00:04:06.860 So they've done this in Nevada.

00:04:08.200 They've done it in Michigan.

00:04:09.760 They've done it to some but not all of the electors in Georgia as part of the Fulton County case.

00:04:13.940 Now they're doing it here in Arizona.

00:04:15.920 So yesterday, Attorney General Mays, who was elected by, what, 280 votes officially?

00:04:22.900 Yeah.

00:04:23.140 Yeah.

00:04:23.580 Elected.

00:04:24.200 She has a big mandate.

00:04:25.560 So she's gone mad with power now. 0.99

00:04:27.760 And she brought charges against 18 people.

00:04:30.440 Seven of them were members of Trump's team.

00:04:32.940 That includes Mark Meadows, Rudy Giuliani, Boris Epstein, a few other people.

00:04:38.040 And then also the 11 people who were Trump's electors in the 2020 election.

00:04:43.160 That includes our friend Tyler.

00:04:44.900 And the claim is really outrageous.

00:04:48.340 There's a set of charges.

00:04:49.900 I've got the indictment in front of me.

00:04:51.800 Some of these charges are fraudulent schemes and artifices, forgery, tampering with a public record,

00:05:01.460 and presentment of false instrument for filing, among other joyous possible crimes that are alleged.

00:05:09.640 And all of this is because they acted as alternative electors in 2020.

00:05:14.360 And as we explained this morning and as we explained on Twitter yesterday, it's just everything about this is truly just cataclysmically insane and deranged and evil.

00:05:26.700 I'm just going to be blunt about this.

00:05:28.300 Because the claim of forgery, here's the deal.

00:05:31.000 In Arizona, in December of 2020, they had certified that Joe Biden was the winner of the state.

00:05:38.580 But Donald Trump's campaign was pursuing various lawsuits.

00:05:41.640 They were hanging legal challenges.

00:05:43.100 Yeah, they were challenging this.

00:05:44.600 They were making a case.

00:05:45.900 We have arguments that we can make.

00:05:47.400 Not everything is exhausted.

00:05:49.120 But what was widely believed within the Trump camp, but also by many Democrats, was the Electoral College convenes on this one date in December.

00:06:00.440 I believe it was the 16th or 19th.

00:06:02.300 Yeah, I think it was the 19th.

00:06:04.220 And they're like, well, they're going to convene and they have to cast their votes then.

00:06:07.920 And it was widely believed that due to the Electoral Count Act and the Constitution, how they interact, that you had to have electoral votes cast on that date or there was no remedy.

00:06:19.100 So they could have later determined, oh, actually, Trump won the state and he should have gotten the electoral votes.

00:06:25.060 And they would say, well, you didn't have an Electoral College slate convened to cast the ballots on the 19th.

00:06:31.560 Congress can't accept them.

00:06:33.520 At most, they could reject the Biden ones, but you couldn't cast them for Trump.

00:06:36.720 And so the thought was, well, we need to have people convene to cast these electoral votes so that if it later is decided in favor of Trump, we'll be able to do this.

00:06:46.460 That was transparently what this was for.

00:06:49.280 This is what they said it was for.

00:06:50.840 They all did it publicly.

00:06:52.880 They said this is what they were doing it for.

00:06:55.440 And there is precedent for this.

00:06:58.960 1960, Nixon versus Kennedy.

00:07:02.140 On election night, Nixon wins the state of Hawaii.

00:07:05.120 They certify it.

00:07:06.720 For Nixon.

00:07:08.520 But they're disputing it.

00:07:10.020 It's very close.

00:07:10.620 He wins it by a hundred and some votes.

00:07:12.560 They dispute it.

00:07:13.260 They say, actually, we think Kennedy won.

00:07:15.220 So the Democrats, they meet in December and they say they sign a sheet of paper.

00:07:20.100 Hawaiian electors.

00:07:21.000 The Hawaiian electors.

00:07:21.680 You know what would be funny?

00:07:22.420 Let's go get it.

00:07:22.860 Let's see if we can find a picture of them.

00:07:24.360 Yeah.

00:07:24.820 You know, we should.

00:07:25.700 I don't know if we have the electors.

00:07:26.680 I can find a picture of the actual thing they signed.

00:07:29.140 Yeah.

00:07:29.300 And it's almost the exact same wording.

00:07:30.900 In fact, I literally think the Arizona electors copied the wording from them.

00:07:34.980 Absolutely.

00:07:35.380 Where they say, we, the duly elected and, you know, electors of the state of Hawaii are

00:07:40.980 casting our three electoral votes for John F. Kennedy.

00:07:45.180 At the time they did this, they were not the certified electors.

00:07:48.420 They were not the duly approved electors of the state.

00:07:50.500 They merely claimed to be.

00:07:53.940 The recount in Hawaii continued and it actually turned out they were, I don't know if we'll

00:07:59.160 say they were objectively right, but it worked for them.

00:08:01.600 They concluded, actually, Kennedy won the state by about 115 votes.

00:08:05.640 One of the closest state results ever.

00:08:07.660 And so they retracted the certification, submitted a new certification, and a judge said, all right,

00:08:14.340 you can swap it out.

00:08:15.280 And the reason you can swap this out is because there is a democratic elector that was there

00:08:19.860 to have it put in.

00:08:21.080 And then they send it to Congress and Nixon, the vice president says, all right, we're counting

00:08:26.760 the Democrat ones.

00:08:27.900 Of his own election.

00:08:28.720 Not much, of his own.

00:08:29.720 Same with Pence, like same sort of thing.

00:08:31.700 And that's how it was.

00:08:33.340 That was the precedent they had to go on.

00:08:35.060 That is what all the Republican alternate electors were looking towards when they did this.

00:08:39.780 And this is, as we pointed out, in November 2020, the day after the election, remember

00:08:46.140 the day after Trump was still ahead.

00:08:47.840 They hadn't had all the ballots hadn't been found yet.

00:08:50.780 And you have Van Jones and you have Lawrence Lessig, a Harvard law professor.

00:08:55.840 They come out and they write an article saying, we need to make sure all the ballots are counted

00:08:59.860 and they're going to try to slow count this because Trump's ahead.

00:09:02.260 And so we need to make it.

00:09:03.460 So if it's still in dispute, when we get to that December day, both of them should convene

00:09:08.500 and they should submit electoral college certifications or not, not certifications, their certificates

00:09:13.740 of voting.

00:09:15.300 And then that way we'll avoid that.

00:09:17.360 We'll just let it go until the latest possible date.

00:09:19.860 This is what a professor at Harvard law says to do.

00:09:24.180 And now four years later, because they look at the polls and Donald Trump is winning in

00:09:29.100 the state of Arizona and winning in the state of Nevada and winning in the state of Georgia

00:09:32.700 and winning in many polls in all those Rust Belt states, they're thinking, oh crap, we need

00:09:37.780 to get this guy in prison.

00:09:39.380 We need to throw more charges at all of his people. 0.97

00:09:42.000 Yes.

00:09:42.160 And oh, turns out all the stuff in Hawaii, oh, that was fraud.

00:09:45.200 That was illegal.

00:09:46.080 All that stuff Lawrence Lessig, the Harvard law professor, had to do, it's a crime.

00:09:49.660 This is outrageous.

00:09:50.700 This is unhinged.

00:09:51.520 This is the crap that you do.

00:09:53.260 I don't even want to say you do it in Russia.

00:09:55.200 You do this in like crappy African countries where they're just winging it the whole time 1.00

00:09:59.660 and be like, oh, it turns out, you know, the opposition leader was a criminal the

00:10:02.340 whole time.

00:10:03.080 I hate these people.

00:10:04.060 Oh, we do have picture of these.

00:10:05.700 Okay, here it is.

00:10:06.180 Democrat attorney Robert G. Dodge instructs the Democrat electors from Hawaii on how to

00:10:11.400 cast their electoral ballots in the 1960s.

00:10:13.640 Look, right there.

00:10:14.640 There's the Hawaiian electors.

00:10:16.740 Wow.

00:10:18.140 We got to tweet that out.

00:10:19.780 Andrew, we got to tweet that out.

00:10:21.320 We got to get something.

00:10:22.680 We got to tweet that out with the picture of the Arizona electors, like one by one with

00:10:26.940 a whole thing on that.

00:10:28.600 So, Jack, you've been monitoring this on social media.

00:10:33.760 Say that again, Jack.

00:10:35.100 I said, what is that?

00:10:36.760 Like the queen of Hawaii or something?

00:10:39.600 It might be.

00:10:40.660 I mean, they got some.

00:10:41.920 Well, the real thing here.

00:10:43.200 One of the electors was named Ernest.

00:10:45.120 Ooh, you, you, you.

00:10:48.000 Ernest.

00:10:48.520 Ooh.

00:10:48.860 Hey, man, those Hawaiian names.

00:10:50.460 I love Hawaii.

00:10:51.400 It's a great place.

00:10:53.320 Unfortunately, it's become super, super lip.

00:10:55.660 Like insanely.

00:10:56.560 It's a it's a welfare state built on tourism and government money.

00:10:59.220 But, Jack, you've been monitoring this from abroad.

00:11:03.240 Blake did a really good job of breaking this down.

00:11:05.840 This is completely outrageous.

00:11:08.540 It is.

00:11:09.440 It is a new level.

00:11:10.780 We I mean, they keep on kind of outdoing themselves.

00:11:13.480 This is worse than any of the other electoral ones they've done in other states.

00:11:17.560 So it is, actually.

00:11:21.220 And look, I gave Tyler a shout out from the stage this morning here in Budapest.

00:11:28.360 And and I said, everybody thinks that it's all fun and games and everybody thinks it's

00:11:34.320 just a bunch of rhetoric until they start knocking on your door or knocking on your friends

00:11:38.260 doors.

00:11:38.760 And the question is, when are you going to put up and fight?

00:11:41.560 When are you going to stop, you know, tone policing people and saying, oh, that's a mean

00:11:45.640 tweet, that's a mean book title.

00:11:47.980 Meanwhile, suddenly you got people that are getting indicted for writing their name on

00:11:52.500 a piece of paper.

00:11:53.180 And suddenly that makes them a criminal.

00:11:55.220 It's it's nuts.

00:11:56.400 But as I was talking to more people about it here, I keep in mind, I'm in Eastern Europe.

00:12:00.720 So I'm I'm in the Eastern Bloc, the former Eastern Bloc.

00:12:03.980 And people came coming up to me afterwards saying, Jack, this is exactly what used to happen

00:12:08.280 around here.

00:12:09.240 They would find some little piece of paper that you signed.

00:12:12.780 They would find some paperwork that their judge had declared was, you know, not correct

00:12:18.360 or something.

00:12:19.260 And all of a sudden, because your name on it, you were a criminal.

00:12:22.760 And, you know, it goes without saying, we say it all the time here on thought crime.

00:12:27.480 We say it in our own programs.

00:12:29.100 But it's very obvious.

00:12:31.360 It's extremely obvious in this case that what they did was they decided that they were going

00:12:36.500 to find the 12 people who were the most effective in Arizona politics or Tyler, who's so effective

00:12:42.400 at the ballot initiative level when it comes to these chase the votes and chase the ballots

00:12:47.820 nationwide, which Turning Point Action is doing.

00:12:50.540 And that's why they've decided to pursue something like this, especially on such a cockamamie case

00:12:56.520 that's being brought by this agee who, as everyone said, has barely won her own election, 1.00

00:13:01.700 which she herself, by the way, played a role in making sure that there were certain votes 0.83

00:13:07.420 that were not certified in her own election, a huge role where she was preventing votes from being 1.00

00:13:12.560 counted and things being certified, et cetera.

00:13:14.480 And so I would simply say that it shows you the stakes, right?

00:13:21.600 Everyone can see Trump on trial right now.

00:13:24.140 Everyone can see when they're going after people who are our own friends, where they're going

00:13:29.200 after somebody who, you know, I was kind of, I think I flippantly said on the last podcast

00:13:34.160 or maybe two weeks ago, the last thought crime that, oh, it looks like none of us are in the

00:13:38.860 news lately.

00:13:39.460 Like for once, none of us didn't drive a news cycle.

00:13:41.720 And now all of a sudden, you know, this happens to Tyler the next week.

00:13:45.380 And it's, it's horrifying, but it's also clarifying to know that like, you know, guys,

00:13:50.980 if we lose, this is what's going to happen to all of us.

00:13:53.160 It's going to happen.

00:13:53.780 It's going to happen to Blake.

00:13:54.780 It's going to happen to Andrew.

00:13:56.380 It's going to happen to Charlie.

00:13:57.240 It's going to happen to me.

00:13:58.200 It's going to happen to our families.

00:13:59.780 It's going to happen to your businesses.

00:14:01.380 And so anybody out there who's listening, just keep in mind that once, you know, they

00:14:06.100 will come for you.

00:14:07.700 They will come for you on whatever pretext they can get by again.

00:14:12.700 And as Blake has said, they built the infrastructure for this.

00:14:16.300 They built the judges.

00:14:17.880 We were talking about this in the pre-show, but they spent years building the institutions,

00:14:22.420 building the legal bench for this.

00:14:24.060 And Charlie, I throw it back to you on this.

00:14:25.600 I mean, with the conservatives that we have on the bench and people say, you know, Trump

00:14:31.560 got so many judges elected.

00:14:33.720 And obviously that's the federal level, it's the state level.

00:14:35.460 But I just don't see this level of fervor when I talk, when I look at the conservative,

00:14:42.060 you know, legal appointees.

00:14:44.280 It's just not there.

00:14:45.460 That would the same way you see with the Democrats, with the liberals, you know, our guys are more

00:14:49.460 likely to, you know, kind of stick their thumb up or like Amy Coney Barrett. 0.84

00:14:52.580 You know, she's basically like a pro-life liberal at this point.

00:14:55.280 And in terms of the way that she's been ruling on so many different things.

00:14:58.520 And the question is like, what is it going to take for us to achieve parity there?

00:15:02.620 So I was talking to a former attorney general yesterday that I won't let me name of a major

00:15:08.980 state and I was really fired up.

00:15:11.320 I called him and I said, so when are we going to start indicting them?

00:15:15.420 I mean, it's the position we say on this program, because I sent him this and he said, well,

00:15:19.460 we don't do that.

00:15:21.220 I said, OK, well, we're going to lose.

00:15:23.720 And you know what he said?

00:15:24.420 He said, well, I'd rather lose with honor than win messily.

00:15:26.740 I said, OK, I said that.

00:15:31.760 Thank you for being for being so clear.

00:15:33.800 I called another guy that was in a very high level law enforcement and he said the exact

00:15:38.280 same thing.

00:15:39.280 Three.

00:15:39.560 You know me, Blake, when I get fired up, I just start texting and calling everybody.

00:15:42.620 It's kind of a problem.

00:15:44.200 Andrew knows that, too, because I just I can't stand mass injustice.

00:15:47.880 I can't stand seeing our beautiful country.

00:15:49.940 It's actually one of my favorite things about Charlie.

00:15:52.020 Oh, thank you.

00:15:52.980 Yes.

00:15:53.800 Yeah.

00:15:54.240 Andrew enjoys it.

00:15:55.260 Yeah.

00:15:55.460 It's you have to be a person of agency and action.

00:16:00.040 Andrew, this is something that you you and I deal with a lot because these people think

00:16:05.100 so highly of themselves and the law and the administration, administering of it.

00:16:10.600 And I I want to just be clear.

00:16:12.440 There's only two ways this will go.

00:16:14.580 We win messily or we lose honorably.

00:16:18.220 Andrew, do you think that's a proper way to look at it?

00:16:22.720 Yeah.

00:16:23.160 I mean, we talk about mutually assured destruction a lot, and I think that there's some there's

00:16:28.660 a reason that we we do that because they have to feel the pain.

00:16:31.700 They have to understand that they've unleashed Pandora's box.

00:16:34.800 And if you're not willing to press the red button, then they're just going to continue operating

00:16:40.220 with impunity.

00:16:41.740 And, you know, this is where we get the boomer hate mail in.

00:16:45.800 But a lot of this is generational.

00:16:47.560 Like if we had this conversation on a college campus with a lot of wingers, you know, these 1.00

00:16:52.720 young guys that come out and watch you table, Charlie, they'd be like they would totally

00:16:56.200 get it.

00:16:57.020 They would totally get that they are living.

00:16:58.720 We are living in an America that is no longer fair.

00:17:02.140 That's no longer decent from an institutional level.

00:17:05.420 And they would understand, like, yeah, you got to you got to hit back.

00:17:08.220 It does.

00:17:08.540 I don't like it.

00:17:09.480 It's not good.

00:17:10.920 This is not who we are as a country or should be.

00:17:13.800 But we have to hit back.

00:17:15.220 And yeah.

00:17:16.020 But once you get to a certain age range and I would say probably like 60 and older, they're

00:17:20.980 not prepared to take that to take that leap because it seems dirty.

00:17:25.980 You have to get your hands dirty.

00:17:27.080 You have to actually go against our nature.

00:17:30.340 And I think Vivek has actually talked about this, is that the conservative mindset is

00:17:34.680 about we're just wired differently than progressives.

00:17:38.360 We want to we want to keep things beautiful.

00:17:41.820 We don't want to we're not necessarily wired to build and restore and build from scratch.

00:17:48.800 Right.

00:17:49.240 The conservative, you want to conserve it.

00:17:51.420 But right now we're in a time in our country where the institutions that we've long admired

00:17:55.780 and loved and appreciated that have kept us free and safe, they're corrupted from

00:18:00.140 the inside out.

00:18:01.140 And so you have to take radical, drastic measures.

00:18:04.360 And that means indict the left.

00:18:06.280 Well, and I just want to be clear.

00:18:07.380 I want Blake's thought on this.

00:18:08.360 There's a there's a fair amount of delusion that exists, though, where they say it's not

00:18:12.080 that bad.

00:18:13.140 It's really bad.

00:18:14.740 But I will say when we say messy, I do think you want to be careful what I think you have

00:18:20.120 to give the left credit for.

00:18:21.740 I know this will make people mad.

00:18:23.300 You have to give them credit.

00:18:24.100 They are careful about laundering bad things they want to do through institutions that

00:18:30.340 grant legitimacy.

00:18:31.900 Even worse than that, through institutions we honor.

00:18:35.100 Yes, that we honor.

00:18:36.180 And so what you do is you don't just throw off some indictment and just roll with it.

00:18:42.740 You make sure you get a lot of law professors to write briefs saying that, you know, if we

00:18:47.640 interpret the law correctly, you can totally do this thing.

00:18:50.320 And you make sure that all the journalists are like writing articles about how this is

00:18:54.560 a totally reasonable thing to do.

00:18:56.020 You build up the momentum that justifies this.

00:18:59.640 And then you make sure that your indictment is really detailed.

00:19:02.680 And you try to pick things that are most vulnerable.

00:19:05.440 All right.

00:19:05.620 Pick an example that's not Trump.

00:19:07.820 You also pick cases where you can get away with it more.

00:19:10.000 The stuff they did to Alex Jones was really outrageous.

00:19:12.760 Yes.

00:19:13.180 But what they did is they picked Alex Jones because they're like, well, he'll be a less

00:19:17.000 sympathetic defendant.

00:19:18.040 And they assassinated him first in the media.

00:19:19.380 And he'll, frankly, he's more likely to do things that will blow up in his face.

00:19:23.820 Do you know why Alex Jones lost his defamation case?

00:19:27.920 He lost by default.

00:19:29.820 He didn't even go to a jury.

00:19:31.220 He lost because he broke the rules so much.

00:19:33.580 The judge said, I'm just holding you to lose by default, which happens if you're in court

00:19:37.940 and you act really recklessly. 0.59

00:19:39.820 And yet now we have this precedent that you can do all this bad crap to people on the right

00:19:43.640 using defamation law because of this case that we lost through a bad setup.

00:19:47.980 But so what I will say is, and then I'll let Andrew go, is don't just say, we don't want

00:19:53.500 to have, you should indict the left, like throw a thing off this Friday so you can go

00:19:57.300 on Fox News and talk about how you're such a great hero for conservatism.

00:20:00.800 What I think you want to do is you have to view this as a, you kind of need to invest in your

00:20:08.020 own arms race.

00:20:09.220 Find red states.

00:20:10.340 You might have to say state legislature, expand the size of your AG's office so they can have

00:20:14.380 more lawyers who do prospective investigations, who send subpoenas so we can get, like SPLC is

00:20:20.720 headquartered in Alabama, Montgomery, Alabama.

00:20:23.320 So expand the size of your AG's office and think, well, there's a lot of suspicious stuff

00:20:27.300 about the SPLC.

00:20:28.180 Didn't they have a sex scandal that was going to get investigated and then it just never

00:20:31.580 was?

00:20:32.020 They just lied about it?

00:20:32.920 Democrats used to call them out.

00:20:34.180 Yes, Democrats would call them out.

00:20:35.440 So why don't we start subpoenaing everything the SPLC has ever done and all their communications

00:20:39.500 and who knows?

00:20:40.340 Maybe we'll find something.

00:20:41.560 Maybe we could expand our RICO laws and say, oh, you're doing all this stuff to enable people 0.95

00:20:46.300 who are doing shady stuff at our border that helps illegals come here.

00:20:49.500 Yeah, we're deciding that that's actually a deliberate abetment of criminal behavior at

00:20:54.060 the border.

00:20:54.480 And we're going to indict you for that.

00:20:56.580 You have to think hard about it and then execute on it.

00:21:00.860 And if you do it carefully, it's way stronger than if you just do a stunt.

00:21:04.720 I agree.

00:21:05.280 It shouldn't be a stunt, but it needs to be a strategy.

00:21:07.820 Andrew, your thoughts?

00:21:09.020 Well, that's exactly.

00:21:10.060 I mean, I don't think when I say indict the left, there is a built-in assumption and it's

00:21:14.440 worth articulating what you just said, Blake.

00:21:16.620 I mean, I agree with everything.

00:21:17.720 But the built-in assumption is that there is vast amounts of criminality that is left

00:21:23.200 unprosecuted, uninvestigated from left-wing actors, right?

00:21:28.800 And the amount of collusion between this White House and different prosecutors around the

00:21:32.780 country is something I would love to get involved with.

00:21:36.420 I mean, Charlie, you had that op-ed in The Federalist that went mega viral and it basically

00:21:43.140 presented five or six different options where you could start.

00:21:47.080 One of the things that we struggle with, to your point, Blake, is, and that op-ed, by the

00:21:53.360 way, was an effort to do exactly what you're talking about.

00:21:56.140 It was saying, hey, we have to start thinking about this.

00:21:58.980 It was like a trial balloon.

00:22:00.400 Get this idea into the jet stream on the right.

00:22:04.420 But then here is the problem with what you just said.

00:22:07.840 And I agree with everything you just said.

00:22:09.660 We have to then get it institutionally supported, right?

00:22:13.440 So you start – then you start building out into the different wings of your party apparatus,

00:22:19.080 the different groups that might be around.

00:22:21.600 We don't have that type of institutional support.

00:22:24.540 And one of our main AG's office is hamstrung, namely Texas, because he needs so much stuff

00:22:30.500 to be referred to him or handed to him.

00:22:33.660 And the local PAs have so much more power in Texas, and that's our largest Republican

00:22:38.280 attorney general office, right?

00:22:40.620 So what – put meat on the bones because I think you think deeply about these things.

00:22:47.760 Take a real-life example.

00:22:49.540 How would you see it gaining momentum and support the right way, given the limitations of right-wing

00:22:54.960 institutions in America right now?

00:22:57.060 Federalist society?

00:22:57.700 You have to want it, but no, I mean, it has to first be – the AG's office is now

00:23:02.280 the new battleground.

00:23:03.120 Letitia James, AG.

00:23:05.020 Chris James, AG.

00:23:07.140 Chris James.

00:23:07.900 Chris Mays.

00:23:09.960 Dana Nessel in Michigan, state-based attorney general.

00:23:13.580 So you make a list of 10 major Democrat organizations the same way that they isolated the NRA, and

00:23:20.120 then you start investigating.

00:23:21.940 Investigating requires nothing.

00:23:23.240 You just send subpoenas.

00:23:24.100 They do this all the time, right?

00:23:25.260 Yeah, the NRA one especially, there is – the thing is, New York is a big state, has a lot

00:23:30.780 of money.

00:23:31.340 They can have a huge AG's office.

00:23:32.880 I think they have over 1,000 attorneys in it, some insane number like that.

00:23:35.980 So it's as large as a major corporate law firm, and they have a lot of lawyers they can

00:23:40.460 borrow because New York's got a million of them.

00:23:42.640 And what they did is they created a unit inside the New York AG's office that was essentially

00:23:47.440 we need to kill the NRA.

00:23:49.400 And they even interfaced this with the left.

00:23:51.080 And Mayor Bloomberg, he literally has funded news outlets whose purpose is to write anti-gun

00:23:57.840 stories so that the media can have these anti-gun stories that you can then cite in legal briefings

00:24:03.200 and all of this.

00:24:03.640 It's a whole operation.

00:24:05.300 And they had this for years.

00:24:07.000 This is not – the stuff they've done against the NRA that we talk about now is because

00:24:10.480 of cases they filed in 2020, based on investigations they started in 2015, a decade-long operation.

00:24:19.000 And I think that's the sort of commitment to a specific cause that the right has to learn

00:24:24.760 to copy from.

00:24:25.960 You have to – it's kind of the old thing that civilization is planting a tree you'll

00:24:30.560 never sit in the shade of.

00:24:32.220 It's political effectiveness is beginning the crusade that you won't be able to take credit

00:24:37.060 for on the news later.

00:24:38.280 I like that.

00:24:40.240 Jack, do you want to care to say that in Missouri?

00:24:42.600 Sorry.

00:24:42.900 Go ahead, Jack.

00:24:44.300 No, I could say I actually comment on that because it's very something similar to what

00:24:48.320 Orban has done here in Hungary.

00:24:50.760 So he was out of power for a couple of years when he wasn't prime minister.

00:24:54.800 And during that time, what he did was – and people know the backstory, of course, Orban

00:25:01.320 basically ran George Soros out of Hungary and had all of the Soros organizations were here

00:25:06.820 in Hungary before they were anywhere else.

00:25:09.580 And his whole rise to power in Hungary was based around him just railing against George

00:25:16.240 Soros from taking over the country and getting rid of him. 0.99

00:25:19.720 But when he was out of the prime ministership for a period before his third term, I believe,

00:25:26.640 if I have that right, what he did is he would go around and he started building the conservative

00:25:32.360 ecosystem all around the country.

00:25:35.580 And so he just built these organizations like what Blake is talking about here and he would

00:25:39.760 go to donors and say, hey, we need an organization that's going to do this.

00:25:43.680 And they're going to be focused on like family issues.

00:25:46.420 And this is the department – this is the organization that's on crime.

00:25:49.980 This is our media network.

00:25:51.520 This is our – just whatever it was, whatever the issue was, there was going to be an organization

00:25:55.860 for it so that when he came back into the prime ministership, all of those organizations

00:26:00.780 or like the top people from those organizations were able to just go one over.

00:26:05.520 And suddenly now they're staffing the government's administration.

00:26:09.040 Now – and it's been incredibly effective.

00:26:12.060 And this is what – and you're starting to see this in nascent stages.

00:26:15.000 Obviously, you know, Turning Point and others.

00:26:17.560 Claremont Institute are examples of this.

00:26:19.960 But we just don't have enough of it yet in the U.S. to compete with what the left has.

00:26:26.580 And we're starting to build it.

00:26:27.720 Now, fortunately, we have like truth on our side and things like that that are very helpful

00:26:30.740 for us.

00:26:31.620 But just to give another example in Europe.

00:26:33.500 So in Poland, the PIS, the Law and Justice Party, just got out of power in their prime

00:26:39.020 ministership.

00:26:40.020 And the problem was they didn't build any of those organizations when they were in power.

00:26:45.440 So now they're out of power.

00:26:46.920 They have like nothing.

00:26:48.220 They have no infrastructure.

00:26:49.840 They lost all their TV networks.

00:26:51.580 They lost all their online presence.

00:26:53.400 They are like zeroed out completely.

00:26:56.080 And the left just went in and took over everything on the entire airwaves.

00:26:59.760 And they're just in an absolute crisis point right now because it's like, what do we do

00:27:04.900 since we don't have any of those organizations?

00:27:07.440 And so this is why it's kind of revolutionary in a sense – counter-revolutionary, I guess,

00:27:13.600 if you look at it this way – to have organizations like Turning Point.

00:27:16.840 And, oh, by the way, Turning Point action, what just happened to their head?

00:27:19.780 Oh, right.

00:27:20.180 He just got indicted.

00:27:21.300 They're trying to slow down our political vehicle.

00:27:23.580 That's part of this.

00:27:24.240 Oh, terrifying.

00:27:25.080 And by the way, I'm not just speculating it.

00:27:26.820 Literally, Vaughn Hillard goes on MSNBC.

00:27:30.960 And out of all the different people he could talk about, Mark Meadows, Rudy Giuliani, Jenna

00:27:34.960 Ellis, he isolates Tyler Boyer on the indictment.

00:27:38.200 Yep.

00:27:38.420 And then mentions Charlie Kirk turning point.

00:27:40.080 We have that clip.

00:27:41.000 No, it's really important.

00:27:42.120 Can you tell me – I want to talk about Wellness Company.

00:27:43.740 I want to play that clip really quick.

00:27:44.960 It's super powerful.

00:27:45.840 At 134.

00:27:47.040 No, and because he didn't have to – I mean, again, I get along with Vaughn.

00:27:49.900 I think Andrew, you do too.

00:27:50.920 He's like the Mr. Arizona of NBC News.

00:27:53.240 He's always treated us very factually and fairly.

00:27:55.900 But I guarantee you he knew what he was doing.

00:27:58.100 He was a super left-wing audience.

00:27:59.240 He's like, oh, guys, no, no, no, you don't understand.

00:28:01.380 This is a way to, like, stop the political momentum.

00:28:03.680 You don't understand.

00:28:04.720 You don't understand.

00:28:05.460 Here we go.

00:28:06.220 All right.

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00:28:22.880 No, it doesn't.

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00:28:24.300 I'm sorry.

00:28:25.280 That's misinfo.

00:28:26.340 Sorry.

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00:29:25.680 Okay, let's play cut 134.

00:29:28.040 Right, and let's just use Tyler Boyer as an example.

00:29:31.100 Tyler Boyer is not going to be a household name to most folks, but he is the RNC committee

00:29:36.160 man from Arizona.

00:29:37.520 So he is the one that at every RNC meeting, winter meeting, summer meeting, he's the one

00:29:43.060 that has a vote for Arizona that picks the chair of the party, for example.

00:29:46.420 He is the person who is not only one of these fake electors indicted, but also RNC committee

00:29:53.520 men, but he's also the chief operating officer of Turning Point USA, which is the Charlie

00:29:59.040 Kirk organization, the Trump-aligned organization that has garnered millions of dollars and has

00:30:04.560 effectively taken over the Arizona Republican Party in recent years.

00:30:09.240 Tyler Boyer, Charlie Kirk, they're close with the likes of Carrie Lake, Abe Hamaday, who

00:30:14.380 was the opponent to Chris Mays in the attorney general's race in 2022 and was an election

00:30:19.860 denier.

00:30:20.380 Okay, so that was, we just have been covering-

00:30:25.520 They're afraid of us, man.

00:30:26.380 Oh, they're afraid of us, 100%.

00:30:27.760 The likes.

00:30:28.680 Well, but I just, again, I just want to say one thing.

00:30:33.040 It's easy for kind of me to go do the show and be like, oh, it's all about Turning Point.

00:30:38.220 And then I watched MSNBC last night, and I'm like, okay, it's kind of-

00:30:41.280 It's all about Turning Point.

00:30:41.980 It's kind of about Turning Point.

00:30:43.180 Like, he didn't have to-

00:30:43.840 If you say Turning Point's important, you know, you're talking in your book, but if they're-

00:30:47.520 When they say Turning Point's important, yeah, okay, all right.

00:30:50.380 I mean, it's like, I didn't, I was literally, as the indictment dropped, you know, supporting

00:30:55.100 Tyler, called up, Tyler's like, we got your back, whole thing, you know, we're taking

00:30:58.880 your legal fees, all the whole thing.

00:31:00.600 And I turn on MSNBC, boom, Vaughan is talking there, I was like, okay.

00:31:05.280 All right, speaking of atom bombs, where we just went through an atom bomb in Arizona of

00:31:09.920 an indictment, Tucker Carlson has really started an incredible debate on the right.

00:31:16.740 Do we have Tucker's interview with Joe, to kind of-

00:31:19.300 Yeah, we do.

00:31:20.000 Jog us along here?

00:31:20.920 It's clip 77.

00:31:22.300 Okay, just, this is Tucker Carlson on the Joe Rogan program.

00:31:25.380 I liked this interview a lot.

00:31:27.640 I thought there were some topics that Tucker might have, you know, that are taken out of

00:31:32.260 context when you talk about.

00:31:33.220 I personally thought the interview was great, and before I get into 77, there's a neighbor

00:31:37.060 of mine who is not yet right wing.

00:31:39.600 He stopped me.

00:31:40.520 He said, Charlie, I've listened to the Rogan-Tucker interview three times.

00:31:43.620 He's like, I'm voting for Trump.

00:31:44.760 And I was like, really, Trump wasn't even really mentioned in this.

00:31:47.320 And he's like, no, no, no, my eyes are open.

00:31:49.000 So I just want everyone to know that Tucker's impact on this interview, at least anecdotally

00:31:52.820 on the micro, has really been impactful, especially when he's talking about the populist stuff.

00:31:57.060 Let's play cut 77.

00:31:58.020 Well, I love, by the way, that people on my side, I'll just say, I'll just admit it, on

00:32:04.920 the right, you know, have spent the last 80 years defending, dropping nuclear weapons

00:32:09.960 on civilians.

00:32:11.140 Like, are you joking?

00:32:12.480 Right.

00:32:12.740 That's just, like, prima facie evil.

00:32:15.200 Yeah.

00:32:15.300 If you can't, well, if we hadn't done that, then this, that, the other thing, that was

00:32:18.980 actually a great savings.

00:32:20.100 Like, no, it's wrong to drop nuclear weapons on people.

00:32:22.800 And if you find yourself arguing that it's a good thing to drop nuclear weapons on people,

00:32:26.440 then you are evil.

00:32:27.560 Like, it's not a tough one, right?

00:32:29.520 Is that a hard call for you?

00:32:30.500 It's not a hard call for me.

00:32:31.800 So let me start this off.

00:32:33.200 I have always found a moral problem with dropping the atom bombs, plural, on Japan. 0.83

00:32:38.260 I've always been argued from authority from people.

00:32:40.880 Charlie, you don't understand.

00:32:41.660 It would have killed a lot of millions of Americans. 0.87

00:32:43.260 I just had a moral problem with indiscriminate mass killing.

00:32:47.600 And I'm glad this discussion is happening.

00:32:49.800 I can't defend it as well as most people.

00:32:52.120 So I was actually shocked.

00:32:53.660 Blake picked this topic.

00:32:55.140 And I was like, OK, he's probably going to be an atom bomb defender. 0.72

00:32:58.400 But you're anti.

00:32:59.540 And that actually comforts me because I've always had this opinion.

00:33:02.440 I just failed to believe that we in America have to resort to, I don't want to say genocide,

00:33:08.080 but, like, just.

00:33:09.860 It's an interesting thing.

00:33:11.640 And I do want to get into it.

00:33:12.700 Just to set the stage, because this is starting a big debate.

00:33:15.860 Jeremy Boring at The Daily Wire.

00:33:17.480 Yes.

00:33:17.840 He had a tweet that 6 million people viewed where he says, in response to what Tucker did.

00:33:22.760 That you hate America, essentially, right?

00:33:24.360 People, he talked about other stuff.

00:33:25.720 People who deny the moon landing or suggest America is evil for its use of atomic weapons

00:33:31.100 against imperial Japan.

00:33:33.180 Says some other stuff.

00:33:34.040 But people who suggest America is bad for using A-bombs actually hate this country.

00:33:38.460 So let me just defend Jeremy.

00:33:40.100 I like Jeremy a lot.

00:33:41.020 I don't think he meant what he wrote in a sense.

00:33:43.180 I think he meant that some people that say these things hate the country.

00:33:46.560 Oh, for sure.

00:33:47.040 For sure.

00:33:47.240 I think that's what he meant by the tweet.

00:33:48.460 There are tons of people.

00:33:49.340 But that's not what the tweet said.

00:33:50.200 I will say.

00:33:51.340 I think the atom bomb is evil and I love America.

00:33:52.880 There are plenty of people who say the A-bomb is bad because they think America is bad.

00:33:56.640 So anything America did is bad.

00:33:57.420 So I think that's what Jeremy meant.

00:33:58.920 But that's not what he wrote.

00:33:59.880 That's fair.

00:34:00.480 That's very fair.

00:34:01.520 But I do think it's very common to have the opposite, which is America is a good country

00:34:06.900 and America did the A-bombs. 0.86

00:34:09.040 So therefore, that was a good thing because America is a good country.

00:34:11.920 And World War II was a good war. 1.00

00:34:13.140 Obviously, we should have been fighting Japan. 1.00

00:34:14.700 They bombed us.

00:34:15.360 They were a reprehensible country.

00:34:17.060 But the question itself is very interesting because people will argue, as they say, that

00:34:22.600 if we didn't use it, more Americans would have died.

00:34:25.040 The war would have gone on longer.

00:34:26.680 We would have had to invade Japan. 0.88

00:34:28.860 And I think what is the interesting pill to swallow is even if that was true, I think

00:34:36.300 it's still wrong to do it.

00:34:37.780 And what it is, it's as Tucker says, what was the A-bomb?

00:34:41.140 We're taking this insanely powerful weapon and we're just deploying it against a city,

00:34:47.540 a city that is by nature overwhelmingly civilians, you know, just old people, women, children,

00:34:54.820 non-combatants of all sort, and just deploying it against a city.

00:34:58.420 And you can make that argument.

00:35:00.380 You can say under a utilitarian calculus that, you know, that's okay.

00:35:05.000 But that sort of calculus is fundamentally a, like, it's a modernist view and it's kind

00:35:12.120 of a left-wing view.

00:35:13.700 Every group of people who have done atrocities in history have said that it is justified

00:35:17.600 because in the long run, the greater good for the greater number of people justifies

00:35:21.780 us doing this outrageous thing.

00:35:24.980 And what I would say is when you look at periods of our history, which were, I would say, more

00:35:29.240 informed by Christian principle, you would not do this.

00:35:32.860 And consider General Sherman, March to the Sea, famous act of total war.

00:35:38.780 General Sherman's guidelines say, he says, okay, here's what you do.

00:35:42.620 You take enough food that a person can live on to survive and you give it to those people.

00:35:47.580 You take all the extra and you destroy it.

00:35:50.460 You burn warehouses and big buildings.

00:35:53.140 You rip up railroads.

00:35:54.040 Don't burn down anyone's homes.

00:35:56.060 So he's like, don't.

00:35:56.480 Is that what he did?

00:35:57.120 Yeah.

00:35:57.400 Well, I don't know how perfect it was in practice.

00:35:59.720 I did once, I'm not making this up.

00:36:01.400 I once looked at the census for Georgia in 1860 and 1870, and I looked at all the counties

00:36:08.440 that Sherman walked through and they all had higher populations in 1870.

00:36:12.680 So he definitely didn't depopulate them, I will say.

00:36:16.420 And this, but you see this, you know, in the American revolution, there are not, there are

00:36:20.620 a few atrocities, but there are just not mass civilian killings.

00:36:24.100 The British do not obliterate Boston and kill everyone in it, even when they're occupying the 0.77

00:36:29.120 city and in the civil war, there are atrocities occasionally, but we do not obliterate Richmond.

00:36:35.720 We do not just send cavalrymen riding through the South and just kill everyone they see.

00:36:41.560 And one of the developments you see of the 20th century is total war, which is anyone who's

00:36:46.760 in the opposing country is fair game to be killed for any reason because they're part of 1.00

00:36:52.200 the opposing country.

00:36:53.080 And the powers that embrace this are Nazi Germany, are the Soviet Union. 0.57

00:36:58.780 It is, and then the people who most sympathize with that are the people in America who sympathize

00:37:04.080 with those ideologies.

00:37:06.080 And it is fundamentally against Christian principle to say, I think it's St. Paul says, you know,

00:37:11.380 woe to those who say, let us do evil, that good may result from this.

00:37:14.680 Also in Isaiah too.

00:37:16.060 Yeah.

00:37:16.360 And so you, you just, like Tucker says, you just don't do that.

00:37:20.420 And so I just, I want to get other people in on this really quick, but Blake, as quickly

00:37:23.860 as you can, what do you say to the argument that people are emailing us in and will also

00:37:28.140 email us in Japan would have never stopped fighting unless they were faced with a world

00:37:31.980 ending situation.

00:37:33.060 They don't surrender.

00:37:34.280 They had incredible resolve.

00:37:35.740 We would have had to put in millions of American troops, hundreds of thousands would have died

00:37:40.360 and no one's defending the atom bomb as being a great thing, but it was like a necessary

00:37:45.320 tragedy to end what would have been even more bloody for all people involved.

00:37:50.520 At that point, you can get into these details on it and that gets into additional moral questions.

00:37:55.780 For example, Japan was putting out feelers where they say, we want to surrender, but we

00:38:00.240 just want a guarantee that like we won't hang the emperor because he's sacred.

00:38:04.620 And we were saying, no, it has to be unconditional.

00:38:07.480 And that was the big break point.

00:38:08.960 And then in the end, we kept the emperor anyway.

00:38:11.140 So we had the war go on a longer length of time.

00:38:13.960 I never knew that.

00:38:14.700 So they were teasing out a surrender before the bomb.

00:38:17.320 Yes.

00:38:17.660 Like there was, there were attempts at negotiation and we were saying unconditional only.

00:38:21.920 That was a major thing we insisted for both Germany and Japan.

00:38:24.840 And there were reasons to do this, but it is noteworthy that the biggest sticking point

00:38:29.560 is something we didn't actually insist upon in the end.

00:38:33.460 I think you could also just point out there are, you know, steps between use the atom bomb,

00:38:38.780 not at all, and use it on a city with 300,000 people in it.

00:38:42.880 For example, what if we just said, hey, Japan, go look at Tokyo Bay tomorrow.

00:38:47.620 And then we drop the atom bomb in Tokyo, Tokyo Bay. 0.52

00:38:50.960 I've always thought that.

00:38:51.540 Why don't we bomb an island in sight? 0.81

00:38:53.060 Yeah.

00:38:53.160 Or truck.

00:38:53.960 Truck is a Japanese fortress. 0.63

00:38:55.540 And we could say, here's a camera.

00:38:56.840 Here's your fortress on truck.

00:38:58.340 Boom.

00:38:58.900 Blow it up.

00:38:59.380 That was a purely military installation.

00:39:01.320 Yeah.

00:39:01.420 But then I guess their argument is, yeah.

00:39:03.460 Jack, do you want to chime in on this?

00:39:05.620 Well, I'll ask Blake a question before I chime in.

00:39:07.780 But Blake, what credence do you give?

00:39:10.640 I've heard this argument more recently that the reason for the A-bombs was sort of meant

00:39:18.360 as a, and I don't know how historical this is, but there may have been some writing about

00:39:22.000 it at the time, that it was sort of meant as a message, not necessarily to Japan, but actually

00:39:28.220 a message to the Soviets.

00:39:30.040 So people have to keep in mind, the Soviet Union has just occupied Japanese-controlled

00:39:35.220 Manchuria on the Chinese mainland at this point and was threatening an invasion of the Japanese

00:39:40.800 home islands.

00:39:42.200 So obviously the Japanese home islands are never invaded.

00:39:45.100 The U.S. had done the island hopping throughout the South Pacific with the Huia U.S. Navy. 0.61

00:39:49.200 And so there's this theory, and I don't even know how historical it is, but there's a theory

00:39:57.540 that because of the Cold War, people could realize that sort of like World War II was

00:40:01.980 ending and the new competition was going to be between the U.S. and the Soviets, so that

00:40:07.320 this becomes then a message to the Soviets.

00:40:10.740 I think that's an example of where you get like liberal arguments against the bomb, because

00:40:16.280 it's sort of an after-the-fact thing.

00:40:18.040 I've looked at it.

00:40:18.780 I don't believe there's strong evidence this is what motivated it.

00:40:22.260 This is after the fact where a lot of people who sympathize with the Soviet Union and don't

00:40:25.940 like America will say, America did this bad thing just because they hated the Soviets and

00:40:30.660 had to send a message to the Soviets.

00:40:32.860 And we're also not indicting the intentions here.

00:40:35.240 I think we wanted to win the war.

00:40:36.220 If you look at the reasons they did it, like what Truman himself said, is he said, I'm

00:40:42.000 the commander in a war.

00:40:43.300 We developed a weapon to win that war, and it would be insane for me not to use that weapon.

00:40:47.840 And Truman's a very straightforward guy and everything you can read about him.

00:40:52.500 Plain-speaking Missouri guy.

00:40:53.940 I think he's basically telling the truth.

00:40:56.300 We made a weapon.

00:40:57.460 We're already bombing Japanese cities. 1.00

00:40:59.500 That's a whole additional issue.

00:41:01.600 So why would I not use this other weapon that could help us end the war? 0.88

00:41:04.660 Well, there was a third, too.

00:41:05.600 There was a third.

00:41:06.580 It would have been a delay after that.

00:41:09.560 So here is what I wanted to weigh in on, and it's kind of what you just mentioned there.

00:41:15.880 This was not – so a lot of people think that the A-bomb, because it is the first and only

00:41:21.440 time, like the two times, that the A-bomb or any type of nuclear weapon was used in warfare.

00:41:26.700 True.

00:41:27.700 True.

00:41:28.180 But this also wasn't the only time that cities were indiscriminately bombed through the use

00:41:34.580 of strategic or carpet bombing in World War II, certainly not by the Allies who conducted

00:41:40.200 carpet bombing all over Europe.

00:41:43.000 But even, of course, the Germans were bombing the heck out of London, too. 0.81

00:41:46.220 So indiscriminate bombing was something that had already gone on to quite an extent up to

00:41:51.680 this point.

00:41:52.080 And that is not to get into the morality of that, but I am pointing out that this isn't

00:41:55.840 the first time that it was done.

00:41:58.200 Andrew, where do you fall on this?

00:42:00.500 Yeah.

00:42:00.760 I mean, what Jack just said factors into my thinking, I think, a lot.

00:42:05.880 I think in general, I think it's a really bad moral conundrum to get stuck in where you're

00:42:12.140 defending the use of nuclear weapons in an armed conflict on civilians.

00:42:16.180 I mean, think about it.

00:42:17.160 It was a quarter of a million people upwards, mostly civilians, died in Japan.

00:42:23.140 And that's incredible, if you think about it, a quarter of a million people.

00:42:27.600 Um, and so I think that's terrible, but I've always thought of it as like the only reason

00:42:33.920 it happened is because it was the first time, you know, I, when I think about it historically,

00:42:38.400 it's like, oh, it's only been used once.

00:42:40.360 Well, it's sort of, it won't happen again.

00:42:43.460 It was as a kid, I remember thinking because, you know, they just got the weapon, right?

00:42:48.460 It was the, it had only been around for a very short amount of time and they used it once

00:42:53.980 and we realized the horror and the tragedy of it won't be used again.

00:42:58.320 So I sort of give them a little bit of pass because of the moment in history it happened.

00:43:03.760 But you, to Jack's point, I mean, Dresden, there was, uh, 25,000 civilians were killed

00:43:08.860 in the Dresden bombings, right?

00:43:10.660 So if you just think about the fact that this was going on and it was going both ways.

00:43:15.480 And I think if you put yourself in, in that moment of time and you, you realize just how

00:43:21.040 brutal the, the, the enemy was, I'm sure there was a, an emotion, you know, humans are emotional,

00:43:27.740 right?

00:43:28.080 So there's a place where you can say rationally killing civilians is bad.

00:43:31.760 Totally agree a hundred percent, but you're coming at the end of a long and bloody conflict

00:43:36.240 where, uh, Axis powers have tried to take over the world and you're wanting to send a really 0.96

00:43:42.700 big signal.

00:43:43.740 Don't try this again.

00:43:44.740 We are more powerful than you.

00:43:45.880 We will destroy you.

00:43:46.840 And you've been doing this to us.

00:43:48.200 We have hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers, millions on the allied side, and you get to

00:43:54.480 the end of that and your emotions are frayed.

00:43:56.440 Your emotional calculus is different.

00:43:59.160 Um, so in the moment I have, I have some historically, I have some grace on that moment, but I think the

00:44:05.480 lesson should be, you know, let's not do this again.

00:44:09.580 This is actually a morally problematic thing to do.

00:44:14.600 And let's not, let's not get there again.

00:44:16.440 I mean, I think that's kind of where I net out on it.

00:44:18.460 I have some grace on the men and women that made that decision, mostly men.

00:44:21.780 Well, hold on.

00:44:22.320 I want to ask a question though, really quick.

00:44:23.840 And I need to talk about noble gold investments.

00:44:25.340 I want to talk about how Tucker connected all the dots though, that because he didn't just

00:44:30.380 bring it up flippantly.

00:44:31.400 He connected the atom bomb as the, like the, the, almost the beginning of the new Testament 0.67

00:44:38.240 of the American story.

00:44:40.100 That was his argument that it made us seem that we are gods that that I think that's

00:44:45.180 being lost in the conversation more of, do you hate the country or not?

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00:45:34.840 So Jack, I want to ask the question here.

00:45:36.500 Do you, what do you think of Tucker's thought here?

00:45:38.680 We said that created in the greatest generation and then boomers, a, uh, hubris, a pride. 0.99

00:45:47.420 Once we dropped the bomb, we felt as if we were like God.

00:45:51.340 Is that a good summary of Tucker's argument, Blake?

00:45:53.440 He, he said that repeatedly, Jack, you heard that as well.

00:45:56.360 Jack Posobiec, your thoughts.

00:45:58.600 Yeah.

00:45:59.080 So it's a strong argument.

00:46:00.500 Um, I don't, I don't know.

00:46:02.780 I've never really thought of it that way.

00:46:04.120 And Blake and I have done, uh, podcasts about sort of the sixties and how the sixties came

00:46:10.140 about, and you're right, actually, there is a huge amount and Tucker's right.

00:46:14.320 I should say there's a huge amount of hubris that comes about because of them.

00:46:18.400 But I would also say that, uh, keep in mind that it's also the space race going on at this

00:46:24.640 time.

00:46:24.840 You're also talking about in the fifties and then even more so into the sixties, you have

00:46:28.800 the height of the cold war, uh, because once the Rosenbergs, uh, steal the bomb through, 0.96

00:46:34.220 um, through, uh, the theft of the Manhattan project, they're then, uh, duly executed for

00:46:39.180 doing so, giving it to the Soviet union that, uh, suddenly one, because this goes away very 0.70

00:46:44.300 quickly is what I'm saying.

00:46:45.520 So this idea, if there was a level of hubris because of it, it goes away quickly because

00:46:49.780 the Soviets get the bomb. 0.56

00:46:51.280 And then, so there becomes this like paranoia as well about who's got the bomb, who's going

00:46:55.680 to get the bomb next.

00:46:56.860 And then when is the bomb going to come?

00:46:58.540 And this is where you get like the, you know, the under the table, uh, you know, missile drills

00:47:02.340 and schools and things like that.

00:47:03.720 So it's, it's an interesting argument.

00:47:07.680 I don't know how much I agree with it.

00:47:09.400 Certainly there's a lot of hubris there.

00:47:10.860 There's no question about that.

00:47:12.380 Um, but there's also a lot of paranoia as well.

00:47:14.260 And that, that I think bleeds into a lot of the cold war would kind of be my response

00:47:19.780 to all of it.

00:47:20.540 And, you know, really the one interesting piece of it, and I'll just say this from having,

00:47:24.560 you know, lived for an eight in Asia for so many years is that what's interesting is that

00:47:29.020 when I'm in Japan and, you know, speaking as American, when I'm there, the only time I

00:47:34.140 ever really hear this come up, anything about the atomic bomb, I'm sure they have, uh, memorials

00:47:38.940 to it and you can go and it's more about just the horror of living through it, but you don't

00:47:43.340 really face any animosity as an American number one.

00:47:47.080 I mean, if you go to Japan, you're just not going to see anyone having an issue with you

00:47:50.880 being an American, even though, yes, we are the country that, that bombed, uh, that bombed

00:47:55.020 Japan.

00:47:55.500 But then number two, the only place you will ever hear it from are like the extreme, like

00:48:00.040 ultra nationalists, like bring back the emperor kind of, you know, get the United States

00:48:06.200 bases out of Japan.

00:48:07.500 And those guys who are like a very small sliver of Japanese society.

00:48:11.240 And so it's, what's interesting to me is that we'll, we'll tie ourselves in knots over this.

00:48:16.300 Whereas the Japanese really do kind of by and large, and, you know, not to speak for the 1.00

00:48:21.140 Japanese, but in my, uh, in my experience there, it seems they really do just view it

00:48:26.440 as an act as, as, as, excuse me, as Andrew was just saying, who's filling in for, uh, our

00:48:31.660 dear friend Tyler, uh, just an act of war that was done through the course of the war

00:48:36.540 and it happened and it was a long time ago and that's it.

00:48:39.620 Yeah.

00:48:39.720 I just, I'll, I'll close this topic with how Blake said it.

00:48:42.580 I refuse to believe that there were no other creative options that we could have employed.

00:48:47.500 We were in the driver's seat.

00:48:48.920 We were in the driver's seat before we, the West, we America just start bombing civilians. 0.87

00:48:55.360 I think, I think it's, I don't think it's a good moment in American history.

00:48:59.160 I think it's a stain on our history.

00:49:00.380 I do, Andrew, final thoughts.

00:49:01.980 Well, no, I, I, I think there is, um, almost a metaphysical element to this, not to sound

00:49:07.340 too in the clouds or, or fringe about it, but I, I have to believe that when you unleash

00:49:13.740 a force, uh, a, a, a destructive force like that on to the planet, that there are unintended

00:49:22.300 consequences that we cannot even begin to fathom.

00:49:26.360 Uh, you know, whether that, I mean, you just don't know where those kinds of, 0.85

00:49:30.360 things will work out in art and architecture and, in, in your country and the spirit of

00:49:35.700 your people.

00:49:36.320 That's what Tucker says.

00:49:37.520 He says all the art died after the atom bomb.

00:49:40.200 That's probably a bit strong.

00:49:41.560 I know, but that's his argument.

00:49:42.700 He thinks that it was like, he thought it was the end of American ingenuity.

00:49:46.300 What I want, I just want to end with a few quotes.

00:49:48.040 Cause I think a lot of people aren't aware of this, that in the first days after it was

00:49:52.260 dropped, it was overwhelmingly on the right and with conservatives who said, this is a

00:49:57.500 morally questionable thing, this, or, or it's just wrong.

00:50:00.160 And Truman was a Democrat and Truman was a Democrat, but don't obsess over the parties

00:50:03.280 like Fulton Sheen.

00:50:04.320 Have you heard of Fulton Sheen?

00:50:05.040 He's the Cardinal is my favorite.

00:50:06.120 Yeah.

00:50:06.420 He should be, you know what he said?

00:50:08.060 He should be, uh, sanctified.

00:50:10.100 Is that, is that the right word?

00:50:10.880 Bishop, canonized, Bishop Fulton Sheen said that the atom bomb, I'm going to read this

00:50:17.100 as a quote.

00:50:18.180 Fulton Sheen said that the atomic bombing was quote, our national sin.

00:50:22.320 And he argued that the counterculture came from it.

00:50:24.740 Father James Gillis was a Catholic priest as well.

00:50:27.360 He edited Catholic world. 0.80

00:50:28.580 He called it quote, the most powerful blow ever delivered against Christian civilization 0.97

00:50:35.160 and the moral law.

00:50:36.980 Fulton Sheen said that?

00:50:37.580 Uh, no, this was, uh, father, uh, James Gillis, another Catholic priest, uh, at the time

00:50:41.020 who was like a conservative, uh, George Schuyler was a, uh, contributor to national review

00:50:47.740 in its early days.

00:50:49.000 And he said, uh, let me see, not satisfied with being able to kill people by the thousand.

00:50:54.980 We have achieved the supreme triumph of being able to slaughter whole cities at a time.

00:50:59.460 Is there anything from, uh, from human events magazine?

00:51:03.600 Uh, I, I don't see it at the time.

00:51:05.720 I'm reading this article by a guy named Andrew Cusack.

00:51:07.880 Just, I want to shout him out because he, uh, helped change my mind on this.

00:51:11.020 But, uh, there's another guy, there were military voices, uh, Admiral William Leahy said,

00:51:15.920 uh, it was, we have adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the dark age. 0.99

00:51:21.080 I was not taught to make war in that fashion.

00:51:24.540 Wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.

00:51:27.960 So I just wanted to throw that out there.

00:51:29.420 I think I forget who, who it was that you quoted.

00:51:32.100 I'd never heard that before, Blake.

00:51:34.040 Uh, but I completely, you said, somebody said it led to the counter revolution, the, the,

00:51:39.380 the cultural revolution.

00:51:40.500 That was Sheen Fulton.

00:51:41.340 Sheen said that.

00:51:42.100 Yeah.

00:51:42.260 I mean, I, I, I don't have a direct line between a and B there.

00:51:46.000 I, uh, and he probably has had it all worked out how it, how that happened, but that's

00:51:51.360 exactly what I'm talking about.

00:51:53.000 It's like, you know, we've talked about it on the show before, Charlie, I know you and

00:51:57.240 I have talked about it.

00:51:58.020 It's like, you know, uh, Osama bin Laden set to destroy, set out to destroy the American 0.92

00:52:04.240 empire.

00:52:04.740 Right.

00:52:05.520 Uh, and he maybe didn't live to see it.

00:52:08.500 Right.

00:52:08.940 But like, but at the same time, like how, how successful in 50 years are we going to

00:52:13.940 look back and say how, how successful Osama bin Laden was at, at getting us to destroy 1.00

00:52:18.840 ourselves and pour our wealth and treasure, uh, into blood and sand in the, in the middle

00:52:24.000 East and create all this domestic, you know, infighting chaos.

00:52:28.240 Right.

00:52:28.560 You go back to the atomic bomb, same concept.

00:52:30.640 It's like, okay, we won that battle, but what were the unintended consequences?

00:52:35.320 What, what, how did we stay in the next generation, uh, with this, with this moment in history

00:52:41.760 that's so cataclysmic now, I, like I said, I have grace on the men that made this decision

00:52:45.980 because of the moment they were in and because of the evil they thought they were fighting.

00:52:49.780 But what, what have we done?

00:52:52.980 What did we unleash?

00:52:54.520 That's right.

00:52:55.220 I pulled that.

00:52:56.300 Yeah, Jack, go ahead.

00:52:57.820 If I can do it, just, uh, just not, not to do my own horn, but just do, to say where it

00:53:01.620 is.

00:53:01.760 So I did pull up, so human events magazine, uh, of which I'm currently the senior editor,

00:53:06.000 as people know, existed at this time.

00:53:09.080 And, uh, we have this quote here just weeks after Japan surrender, an article published

00:53:13.840 in conservative magazine, human events, intended that America's atomic destruction of Hiroshima

00:53:20.260 might be morally more shameful and more degrading than Japan's indefensible and infamous act 0.99

00:53:26.620 of aggression at Pearl Harbor.

00:53:27.660 Wow.

00:53:30.280 And they were saying that, I want to be clear, they're saying this at the time.

00:53:33.020 These are the people who were fighting the war, who had family members and friends fighting

00:53:37.640 the war.

00:53:38.100 So this is not just judging it 50 years after the fact when it's easy.

00:53:44.260 Um, all right guys.

00:53:45.240 So let's continue on this Tucker, uh, through line here.

00:53:47.700 So, so Blake, you, your particular can comment on this, but there was a lot of blowback to

00:53:53.220 this episode on social media.

00:53:55.040 Is that right?

00:53:56.020 Well, just cause I, I'll be honest.

00:53:57.740 I think, I don't know if that's right in my micro world.

00:54:01.620 I can think of a couple dozen examples of people who loved it, but Twitter didn't love

00:54:06.100 it.

00:54:06.480 Is that right?

00:54:07.440 But Twitter is not real life.

00:54:08.700 Twitter is definitely not real life.

00:54:10.420 We have to keep reminding ourselves that.

00:54:11.740 Yeah.

00:54:11.880 Well, so it wasn't, it definitely wasn't just the atomic bomb thing.

00:54:14.540 There was a lot of topics.

00:54:15.740 Uh, they discussed aliens, radiation, seven.

00:54:19.020 They, he said the theory of evolution on your computer.

00:54:21.480 I missed that one.

00:54:23.960 No, there was, no, there was kiddie porn on your website, on your computer from the

00:54:27.560 Intel agencies.

00:54:28.960 Like that was the thing he kept saying.

00:54:30.300 Did he say that?

00:54:30.840 Like they would frame it.

00:54:33.040 Yeah.

00:54:33.620 Whoa.

00:54:33.960 He said that if you say the wrong thing, the Intel agencies put that on your,

00:54:36.940 Whoa.

00:54:37.400 Which happened to Cheryl Atkinson, which actually happened to Cheryl Atkinson, the journalist. 0.96

00:54:41.740 They did that to her. 1.00

00:54:43.820 They did.

00:54:44.380 And she's got all the documents and it's been suppressed.

00:54:49.200 Wow.

00:54:49.520 And she's like a normal, regular, like, wasn't she a CBS reporter before?

00:54:55.360 Yeah, she was.

00:54:55.920 She was.

00:54:56.440 Yeah.

00:54:56.760 Yeah.

00:54:56.940 She was CBS.

00:54:58.220 We got her on the show.

00:54:59.060 She's not the most conservative buyer brand anything.

00:55:02.320 No.

00:55:03.340 So, so, so, but anyone can chime in here.

00:55:05.720 I loved the interview.

00:55:06.680 They say, let's kind of, I want Blake to take the fifth on this right now because he's

00:55:11.340 too biased on this particular topic.

00:55:14.240 I liked it.

00:55:15.720 Jack, do you think it was smart for Tucker, for the movement to go into that kind of a

00:55:21.000 format?

00:55:21.860 I was neutral.

00:55:23.640 I think absolutely because 30 to 40 million people have probably listened or have watched

00:55:28.700 clips of this.

00:55:29.440 Your thoughts, Jack, on the Tucker Rogan insane viral conversation.

00:55:35.500 Well, so, so there's a couple of thoughts, right?

00:55:38.140 And, and I can get, I'll say it this way.

00:55:42.340 I can understand where people, some people are coming from in good faith if they're criticizing

00:55:46.960 it and saying, saying like, people are used to seeing Tucker Carlson slay dragon.

00:55:52.360 They want to see him slaying dragon.

00:55:54.820 They want him going after their most hated, virulent politicians and leftists and leftist

00:56:02.460 ideas and saying the things that shouldn't be said and talking about, ooh, the great replacement

00:56:08.360 or, you know, ooh, racial crime stats or something like that.

00:56:12.780 And that's, that's kind of what they're looking for.

00:56:14.580 Whereas Tucker himself, his interests don't necessarily align with that all the time.

00:56:19.440 I'm not saying they don't ever.

00:56:20.520 But there are times where he wants to explore different things.

00:56:23.760 And I think people need to understand that Tucker's done a ton for the movement and Tucker's

00:56:28.680 got more achievements than most people in the movement combined.

00:56:33.420 And so if he wants to take some time to, you know, explore different areas, he's more than

00:56:38.220 earned the right to do that.

00:56:39.380 And furthermore, he isn't like duty bound to discuss certain things or be a certain, you

00:56:45.260 know, puppet for anyone.

00:56:46.800 I mean, he's, he's independent now.

00:56:47.940 Certainly he doesn't have to do any of that.

00:56:49.300 He doesn't owe anyone anything in terms of it.

00:56:52.760 But at the same time, I guess what I could say is that there are also people who are

00:56:58.320 sort of commenting in bad faith, because I do think that with Tucker, with Tucker leaving

00:57:03.700 his position at Fox, it created a situation where, you know, he had been sort of the undisputed

00:57:10.260 top dog of like conservative slash alternate media.

00:57:15.100 And now it almost seems like there's a vacuum and you see other groups and I'm not going

00:57:21.840 to, you know, call out anyone specifically, but you can certainly see other groups viewing

00:57:26.240 the ability to sort of attack Tucker now as a way of trying to usurp that position, which

00:57:32.900 I think is stupid and very nearsighted.

00:57:35.480 So I would, if there's anything bad for the movement, I'd say it's what's bad for the movement

00:57:38.920 is this like petty sniping, which just comes across as jealousy.

00:57:42.920 Yeah, it's ankle biting.

00:57:44.180 But, but Blake, what, what is wrong with, I mean, Rogan traditionally doesn't have political

00:57:49.500 guests.

00:57:49.900 He will like one out of every 30, right?

00:57:52.900 Comedians, all that.

00:57:54.140 He has, he's had James Lindsay, Christopher Ruffo, Riley Gaines in the last, like this

00:57:58.380 year.

00:57:58.620 Those are his three conservatives.

00:58:00.340 He's had Bernie Sanders on the program.

00:58:02.440 He said Alex Jones, but I would say this is his most, he's had Ben Shapiro and Matt Walsh.

00:58:06.660 It was the one he had on and it caused them to like demand that, um, Spotify, it was

00:58:12.400 either Jones, was it Peterson?

00:58:14.060 No, it was, no, it was Dr. Robert Malone.

00:58:15.740 Oh, that's what, yeah.

00:58:16.480 It was the COVID stuff.

00:58:17.380 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:17.660 So it was, it was, cause Malone is so talented and he just doesn't BS and he just looked Joe

00:58:22.900 in the eye and he said, the vaccines are a depopulation agent, Joe.

00:58:25.900 And it was just, that was during, I'm not saying I disagree or agree at that, Blake.

00:58:30.300 I'm just saying he said it and Spotify lost it.

00:58:32.220 Mass formation psychosis.

00:58:34.140 Yeah, that's it.

00:58:34.600 That's his thing.

00:58:35.340 That's his thing.

00:58:35.880 So, uh, but why wouldn't, what is, what, what, what was your, what is your criticism

00:58:41.320 of this interview?

00:58:42.220 If there was one?

00:58:42.840 Well, I think when I just, when I talk to people and some of them are sort of disappointed

00:58:49.880 by Tucker post Fox is I think they, it's always, it's not that Tucker does anything new post

00:58:58.540 Fox, but he talks, I think proportionally more about stuff that just, it feels almost off

00:59:05.660 topic.

00:59:06.100 Like if, what are your big issues in the 2024 election?

00:59:09.320 Is it, yeah.

00:59:10.240 Like, is it aliens?

00:59:11.420 Is it nine 11?

00:59:13.280 Is it whether evolution is true?

00:59:15.960 And those are all perfectly good things to talk about.

00:59:19.260 I think people have the sense that Tucker's biggest talent was he could zero in on what

00:59:23.540 really mattered politically.

00:59:25.000 He did that in the interview though, to be fair though.

00:59:27.080 There was a, there was a, when he got to the Ukraine foreign aid stuff, but you would say

00:59:31.280 that he veered off of course?

00:59:33.000 A little bit.

00:59:33.960 I think, or at least I think it's, it's a matter of proportion when he would talk about

00:59:37.960 aliens on Fox, it would be in the E block and it's like, Oh, you do fun stuff late in

00:59:42.660 your primetime show.

00:59:43.560 And one of the things is, Oh yeah, it's aliens.

00:59:45.580 And there would be funny Tucker's.

00:59:47.520 It was very much like a funny self-aware thing.

00:59:49.680 There would be a funny aerial phenomenon where the sky would like have blue lights in it because

00:59:54.300 of weird lightning thing.

00:59:55.440 It's like to people, is it UFOs?

00:59:57.420 Yeah.

00:59:58.320 Maybe it could be.

00:59:59.120 Have a nice weekend.

00:59:59.700 Yeah.

00:59:59.960 Have a nice weekend.

01:00:00.680 And then, but now it's, you know, now it, it seems like a bigger focus.

01:00:05.440 Um, when proportionally it's like, we have, it feels like we're in a big crisis right

01:00:13.300 now, not just with Ukraine, but with the border and with all this like legal overreach from

01:00:17.860 the Biden administration.

01:00:19.160 And it's like a new thing every day.

01:00:21.420 And it's sort of in the past when you had a weekly show, Tucker would be there and he

01:00:26.400 would come in and he'd be like, he'd be the guy taking point on all the reasons that

01:00:30.340 this Arizona indictment of Tyler is super sinister.

01:00:33.560 He would say all the things we said on our show and he would be one of the first to say

01:00:37.440 it and now he'll probably get to it, but he probably won't be one of the first to get

01:00:41.020 to it.

01:00:41.480 And he might only do one episode on it and then nothing on it for weeks at a time.

01:00:46.220 So Andrew, let's have you close out.

01:00:47.660 Andrew, you're, you're the PR messaging genius.

01:00:50.100 What do you think?

01:00:51.120 No, I agree.

01:00:52.040 I agree with what Blake just said.

01:00:53.220 I think it's more of a structural issue of not having a daily show because the news really

01:00:57.620 drives a daily show.

01:00:58.920 We know that on the Charlie Kirk show.

01:01:00.280 It's like, we know the lead, I would say 80% of the time, because there's a breaking

01:01:05.600 lead story.

01:01:06.660 Right.

01:01:07.080 And so when you're doing a nightly show, he has to hit that, that story that everybody

01:01:11.600 wants to hear his opinion on.

01:01:13.000 But right now he's not bound to a, a, a, a publishing schedule.

01:01:16.920 Basically, he kind of just releases content when it's ready.

01:01:20.580 Um, and so that's one thing.

01:01:22.360 Second thing, Charlie, I listened to the majority of that interview.

01:01:25.380 I didn't listen to the whole, whole Tucker Rogan piece, but to your point, there is large chunks

01:01:31.900 of it that are, are right on the, on the money, uh, where he's, he's dialing in, he's bringing

01:01:37.360 that moral clarity on the truly important stuff.

01:01:40.660 But what the internet does is it clips it and it clips different pieces of it.

01:01:44.940 I mean, your account was maybe potentially part of this, right?

01:01:48.480 You, the, the building seven, I think your, your tweet did like three or 4 million impressions

01:01:53.500 on Twitter because it was interesting, but that doesn't mean that that, that was the,

01:01:57.160 the predominant, uh, topic that was discussed in that three hour interview.

01:02:01.540 It was, it was just an interesting little clip, but then the internet does what it does.

01:02:05.580 And then it, and it makes it out like that was the, the vast majority of the discussion.

01:02:10.820 So I think it's a, it's a structural issue, but, um, you know, I, I, I, I think one other

01:02:17.920 thing, the Israel topic when he had the, uh, the, what was it?

01:02:25.100 The, I think he was a Lutheran actually, but it was the, the Christian guy from, um, it

01:02:31.800 was a Bethlehem.

01:02:32.940 I think it was that.

01:02:34.220 And then there was also the, um, the Russian grocery store thing.

01:02:39.120 So there, there's been a few little incidents that have been leading up to this and people

01:02:44.800 have started ankle biting at Tucker and I think it's just starting to gather momentum.

01:02:49.540 Um, and, and this was just sort of like, you see all of these, these different weird ways

01:02:56.980 that, you know, Tucker's a very curious guy.

01:02:59.740 So his mind goes in all these curious directions and yeah, it's sort of, it's creating this,

01:03:04.020 this atmosphere of a lot of noise and they, they do miss the nightly hitting the main story,

01:03:08.860 the main and the most important thing.

01:03:10.680 Um, but to Jack's point, Tucker's Tucker, um, he's, he's won the right to do this.

01:03:17.660 And, uh, to the extent that other people are going to criticize him, it's, it's bound to

01:03:21.720 happen, but it's, um, it's a lot of like clout chasing in my opinion, but I, it's, it's a,

01:03:27.480 it's a structural issue.

01:03:29.040 Here's what I probably actually think happened is that they were, cause they spent some time

01:03:33.600 together.

01:03:34.040 He was down in Austin and they did like a comedy show.

01:03:36.440 And then, you know, this was sort of, it was like a weekend, like a long weekend in

01:03:40.120 Austin or something.

01:03:40.980 So it's just my impression.

01:03:43.820 And I, uh, I think I've ever met Rogan actually.

01:03:47.640 Um, but I think what probably happened cause I've been around stuff like this a lot is that

01:03:51.380 they were probably just having a lot of off screen conversations about those topics and

01:03:56.700 that just bled over into the show.

01:03:59.180 I don't think there's any, like, well, if you've spent any time, yeah, if you've spent

01:04:05.600 any time with Tucker and, and I haven't probably spent as much as Blake or you Jack, but I've

01:04:10.300 spent some that it's just the, well, these crazy conversations come up and you talk about

01:04:17.640 random stuff and it's really, really fascinating.

01:04:19.980 And Tucker is incredibly charming and, and extremely fascinating.

01:04:23.740 And it just does come up cause he's a really curious guy.

01:04:26.340 The second thing I will say, and Jack, you and Charlie know this firsthand is you become

01:04:31.120 a victim of your own success.

01:04:32.960 So Tucker has been massively successful.

01:04:35.940 He's been built up to be this, this thing, this, he represents the movement and he's a,

01:04:41.600 he's the intellectual vanguard of the populist conservative movement and all of these things.

01:04:46.540 And then all of a sudden there's, uh, unbeknownst to him, there's now rules applied to him where

01:04:50.900 he's not able to sort of be a human and, and indulge in, in random conversations.

01:04:55.660 This happens to you and Charlie, you, you come on the show and you talk, you talk about

01:04:59.780 stuff that you just find interesting.

01:05:02.000 And all of a sudden it's like getting clipped by, you know, the Biden campaign is like Trump

01:05:07.100 surrogate, uh, uh, you know, Jack, Trump surrogate, Charlie Kirk.

01:05:11.760 And it's like, no, we're not Trump surrogate.

01:05:13.640 Like, yeah, we support him, but we also have our own life and our own show and our own things

01:05:17.960 that we do.

01:05:19.200 Um, anyway, so it, it, it's partly like, like people forget, dude, the Tucker, even after

01:05:24.660 he left his show, I mean, just played this massively outsized role in the presidential

01:05:30.000 primary, like a couple of months ago.

01:05:33.040 It wasn't that long ago.

01:05:34.420 Yeah.

01:05:35.000 Right.

01:05:35.300 And yeah, that Iowa forum where he just, he just ended Mike Pence's career, his entire

01:05:39.680 career right on stage, uh, with his Iraq war questioning just destroyed it.

01:05:44.200 It was, there's no coming back and Mike Pence found that out, uh, in short order later.

01:05:48.100 So guys, it's like, I, I, I don't know.

01:05:51.280 I, I think it's, I think it's all very silly.

01:05:54.040 Um, but of course it's the world we live in, right?

01:05:56.120 Because we live in a constant state of dopamine rush of, it doesn't matter what you did in

01:06:00.560 the past.

01:06:00.980 It doesn't matter what your resume is.

01:06:02.380 What are you doing right now?

01:06:03.540 And I don't like this stuff right now.

01:06:05.820 I expect a certain thing from Tucker.

01:06:08.040 It's like, it's like the Ramones were together for 25 years and they kept making the same record,

01:06:12.740 you know, for 25 years.

01:06:13.900 And that's fine because if they wanted to do that and be the Ramones, that's fine too.

01:06:17.660 But you know, other bands go in different directions at different times.

01:06:21.580 And if the music is good, then why shouldn't they be allowed to do that?

01:06:25.520 All right, everybody, uh, until next week, we'll keep committing thought crimes.

01:06:29.400 Jack, stay safe and hungry.

01:06:30.980 I don't think that'll be a problem.

01:06:32.240 Thanks so much, guys.

01:06:33.000 Talk to you soon.

01:06:33.480 Thought crime is death.

01:06:43.900 Yeah.

01:06:44.340 Thanks.

01:06:45.600 Good.

01:06:46.500 Good.

01:06:48.540 Day.

01:06:48.800 Dance.

01:06:49.980 Thank you.

01:06:50.300 Hmm.

Human Events Daily with Jack Posobiec - April 27, 2024

THOUGHTCRIME Ep. 42 — Lawfare in Arizona？ Was the A-Bomb Evil？

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