Imagine No Income tax - The Value of Freedom with Guest Dennis Kalma
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Summary
Dennis Kalma, co-writer of The Value of Freedom, joins me to talk about the new document from the Alberta Prosperity Project that lays out the economic benefits of Alberta becoming independent from Canada. We talk about how the document was written, who the author is, and what it means to be an independent Albertan.
Transcript
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Hi, it's John. And just before I get to the interview with Dennis Kalma, who is the co-writer
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of The Value of Freedom, a great interview, by the way, that will tell you how you and your
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family will benefit from Alberta independence. Some great news has happened since I did the
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interview with Dennis. The petition campaign has started. It's so exciting. There's a new
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website you can go to as well. I want to bring this to your attention. It's called stayfreealberta.com.
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All the information you're going to need when it comes to the independence movement here
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in Alberta. If you're interested in signing a petition, more information here at stayfreealberta.com.
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They're also looking for canvassers. If you'd like to volunteer some of your time, be sure
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to do that as well. And if you'd like to donate to the movement, be sure to do that. It's going
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to take some money to get this over the line to get independence here in Alberta. And you
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can make a donation at stayfreealberta.com. Keep in mind that the people who are involved,
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the people involved with the Alberta Prosperity Project are not collecting a salary. The most
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they get are hotel rooms and some gas money so they can travel around the province and
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spread the word about independence. So donate if you can. Every little bit counts. Now to
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my interview with Dennis Kalma, co-writer of The Value of Freedom.
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Hi, it's John and welcome to the channel. It is Saturday, January the 3rd. Great to have you along
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today here, of course, with the big blue mug of coffee. I move it over in front of my face. It
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always disappears when I use Zoom. And today I've got a special guest with us. As you can see,
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my guest today is Dennis Kalma, who is the co-writer of The Value of Freedom. Here's the
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document right here. This is available at the Alberta Prosperity Project website. Link in the
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description so you can check this out. All the numbers are in here. If you've got any questions
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regarding what independence in Alberta will mean from a standpoint of economics, it's right in here.
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Dennis, great to have you here. I only met you recently. Thank you so much for talking to me today.
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I appreciate it. I'm more than happy to join in and give whatever information I can.
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You know what? I was looking through this again today. I've looked at it many times. I think I
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might have picked this up. I think maybe back on, I'm trying to think, back in the summertime sometime,
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I grabbed this. And if you go through this, there's information in here about the environment,
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Indigenous people, immigration, work permits, education, policing, border, postal services,
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so many things. I mean, it touches on everything. I want to try to stick with the numbers here,
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what it means to people when it comes to their pocketbook. But I think we may stray into some
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of those categories while we're talking here today. What did you base this document on? I mean,
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where did you get the numbers regarding how much Alberta contributes to Ottawa, how much money we're
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paying in equalization and all those things? So, I mean, this is where AI is your friend for doing
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research, not generating numbers. The guts of it is most of the data is from places like StatsCan
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and the CRA who publish, for example, StatsCan publishes annual reports on economics and CRA does
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as well. The issue always is, and this is where the AI does help, is the numbers conflict.
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They're accounted for differently. They're split out in different timelines and so forth. So,
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the challenge was pulling it together into some sort of common base and to get a structure that
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we could work with. And that was the key element. Now, the reason why the error bars, the bands are
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broad as they are, is to reflect some of that uncertainty with the various sources of information.
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I know you say we, and I think you're talking about Jeff Rath because he helped you write this
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as well, right? Okay. So, from what I saw, I remember when this document came out and I saw it,
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I thought, oh my goodness, there's going to be all kinds of pushback on the document. But
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from what I saw, there wasn't, there were a few people who commented on it. So, I'm thinking
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for the most part, people think those numbers are pretty correct. Have you received any feedback on
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that? Actually, there's been no material feedback on any of it. And the numbers actually are getting
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more and more supported. You hear, for example, Danielle Smith speak about another pipeline's worth
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20 billion a year kind of numbers. And that just reinforces the calculations. And so far to this
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point, we haven't found anyone say, oh, there's a bust. You know, we're getting to the point now.
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You know, January 2nd, just yesterday was the day we're expecting to hear about the signature
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campaigns. We're moving forward and we're going to start hearing more questions about what it means
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for independence here as people start to realize this is actually going to happen this year. How much is
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Alberta contributing to Canada annually? I hear conflicting numbers there. I'm talking about
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federal tax contributions. Yeah. Well, I mean, if you take the total amount we give to the feds,
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now this includes personal income tax, corporate income tax, you know, excise taxes, duties, all that
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kind of stuff. It's on the order of around 70 billion per year. That's the amount that goes in. And in
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addition to that, of course, you have the provincial taxation that occurs. And the total of those two
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numbers is about 140 to 145 billion a year. So we would basically, if we vote for independence
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and we go through the process of negotiating that, we would be able to keep $70 billion in the
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province. Is that a correct assessment? Well, we made some pretty simplistic assumptions. We said,
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we're not going to get any real improvement in efficiency by getting rid of the feds, as it were.
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We said, look, the province will operate as it does, still doing education, still doing health care,
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all that kind of good stuff. And so we'll leave their budget essentially untouched.
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Then we said, we have to add in the services that the federal government gives to us. They do
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military, they do indigenous, they do all those kinds of things. It's about eight or nine items
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in total. We said, okay, we have to replace that. That's on the order of 24, 25 billion a year. So
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we got to take that off the total. When you do that simple math, you get down to saying, well,
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where we're going to be left over with the money we give to Canada now is between 23 and 45 billion a
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year. So, you know, you say, at least we have, we'll have 23 billion more tax dollars that actually
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is available for the government to do something with.
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Now, the question I get on occasion, um, and what people say, and some people for the forever
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Canadian campaign are saying is that if Alberta leaves and this idea and talk about independence
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is putting a chilling effect on investment. Now you're talking about the amount of money we'll
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have left over, um, if Alberta leaves, what are your thoughts on that? And how would you counter a
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question like that, Dennis? Well, since this has already collected tax revenue and it's coming off
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your paycheck now, so to speak, literally it means on day one, we can give that excess money back at
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least 23 billion a year, essentially not collective. We, we just leave it in your pocket, reduce the tax
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rate. And that's where the key element comes in on day one, corporate income tax, personal income tax
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will go down at least around 25% per year. So that's just the low case. And we sort of took that
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very simplistically. So I think, well, I'm an investor, I'm a, uh, big businessman, small
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businessman. And you tell me, oh, independent Alberta. Now my tax bill goes down by at least
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a quarter day one. Why would I leave? And why wouldn't people want to come here? You'd be beating
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them off with a stick, wouldn't you? I mean, that's why part of the reason why we wrote the immigration
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policy is because we said, look, we're going to have the reverse problem. Yeah. There's some
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instability while the negotiations occur, but practically speaking, when people say, Hey,
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lower tax regime, looks like smaller regulatory regime. How do we get into here to make some
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money? And that's where we really need a good immigration policy. Would you, so you're saying,
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so you're saying that income tax could drop by on a minimum of 25% for Albertans if we vote yes
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in independence? Well, remember that big, that band we said, we have leftover between 23 and $40
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billion per year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We did a very simplistic thing. We said, all right,
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we're just going to pretend corporate and personal taxes are all mushed together. It represents a tax
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load to use a citizen bear. Either you're paying a corporation who pays tax or it's off your own
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income. I said, okay, at the absolute worst case, we could just get rid of provincial income and
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corporate taxes, take it right off the bill. Right. You know, I'm just, I'm go ahead. I'm sorry.
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Go ahead. And that's the low end. The high end is we take all the federal taxes off.
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Which could be up to what percentage do you figure?
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Around 45, 45 to 50%. Let's just say it's on the low end at 25%. If you're watching this right now,
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let me ask you a question. If your income was increased by 25% tomorrow, how would that change
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your life? I mean, that's huge. That's a huge amount of money, isn't it?
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Yeah. It is an amazing amount of money. And so you think about, all right, you're paying 15 grand
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a year in taxes now, let's say, pretend. I think that's for an income of around, family income around
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100K. Also, you got 5, 7,500 bucks more in your pocket, or worst case, somewhere in the order of
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4,000 bucks more in your pocket. That's a chunk of change. That's 350 bucks a month, just on tax savings.
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What would this mean for Alberta? I mean, if we get independence, when we're able to stop giving the
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money we're giving to Ottawa right now, and develop our resources like we wish we could right now, where
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would Alberta stand when it comes to economies around the world? So right now, our GDP per person
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is around the same as Austria and Germany, rough numbers, 50,000 bucks per person. And that's high,
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isn't it? We actually contribute a disproportionate amount per capita to Canada, because we have a small
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population, but give a lot of money, don't we? Exactly. Yeah, that's pretty high. We're a pretty
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wealthy province, soon to be nation. If you start adding in two or three pipelines to what we
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speculated in the future looking section of the document, we'll also have an extra 40 to 60 billion
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per year coming into the province. And probably our GDP would start approaching place per capita,
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would approach the top end, the Dubais and Qataris of the world. So I mean, also you have a very
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wealthy country. And in that scenario, you can say, well, we do a bunch of good stuff. We can get rid
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of personal income taxes entirely. We can get rid of property taxes entirely. We can reduce corporate
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tax to a flat 10%. All those kinds of things are well within financial range.
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So let me ask you about this. It's another one that comes up quite often. There are people concerned
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about that. We're talking money here, of course, but of course, programs as well. Canada Pension Plan,
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old age security. Have you accounted for that in the document as well?
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Totally. We did have a couple of glitches, but yeah. So the whole CPP conversation hinges on the
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fact that there is in the CPP Act, there's ways for provinces to exit. There's a formula for doing
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that. The Lightworks report went through, did that calculation, said we got to get around 360 billion
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back. Roughly a third of the total CPP cash base. So we said that's pretty aggressive. Might not get
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that for a number of reasons, but let's pretend we get half. So 165 billion, some of that.
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And this is all up for negotiations after a vote on independence, correct?
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Totally. And Dr. Modry and I said, we want to be on that negotiating team because we're both
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retired people. So just go down there. Well, you know, I've actually sat in on some Zoom meetings
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and some conference calls on an Alberta pension plan. I know people are losing it. Some people
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in Alberta are concerned about an Alberta pension plan, but I couldn't see any reason why not to have
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one right now. And I'm hoping that the province moves ahead with that in the future, regardless of
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what happens with independence. But certainly it has been accounted for if we move forward with this.
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Exactly. Quebec has it. They're doing just fine. Why couldn't we? But if we're independent and we
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take that 160 odd billion, you get roughly a 10% return on investment. That's what CPP has been
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doing for a number of years. People still contribute to it. So you add a few more billion and you do have
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to pay out the existing pensioners in Alberta. Out of that sum, you end up at about 23 billion per
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year. And we have a pension obligation today of 5 billion. So we have a essentially a good chunk of
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money left over because the Alberta portion is actually overfunded.
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Seems like there's a lot of pluses here, Dennis.
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There is a lot of pluses. And that's where people start saying, yeah, but you didn't include OAS
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explicitly. You didn't include a guaranteed income supplement and so forth. Well, in that remaining
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15, 17 billion per year, just out of the pension plan, there's no reason why you couldn't cover
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an OAS, cover all the GIS type stuff, make them richer on payout, reduce contributions, make them tax
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free and no clawbacks. So also you say to our pensioners, wait a minute here, you don't pay tax
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on it. It doesn't get clawed back. Actually, your income's gone up.
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Right, right. Now, I was wondering, this is something I haven't heard anybody address right
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now is what, what percentage of the federal debt would we be on the hook for? I'm certainly
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we're going to have to pay some of that back. Am I right?
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Well, that's an interesting conversation because the guts of it is everyone assumes it's per capita.
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You just say we represent 14% of the nation. We take 14% of debt, something like 50 billion bucks.
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I would argue that point pretty strenuously because I would say we've over contributed to,
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to Canada. Much of the debt that was incurred was for things that have nothing to do with Alberta.
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Why would we take that share of debt that went to funding some project in the Maritimes? Let's take
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a smaller proportion and being most conservative. That's part of the reason why we only took half the
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CPP. We said, okay, that other half, that other 160 billion that we're not getting from CPP,
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that's covering the national debt. That's covering getting back Canadian forces-based pen hold,
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federal buildings, that kind of stuff. That covers that lot. We have no debt other than the
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provincial debt we have today. Okay. And another question that kind of concerns me,
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my wife asked me about this. She said, what if I've got investments in Canada? I'm assuming this
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would have an effect on the Canadian dollar. Would people be at risk of losing parts of their
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investment if we vote for independence? Personally, and I think that's shared amongst
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everyone working on this, is we will see the Canadian dollar drop like a stone.
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I would not be surprised to see it going down to under 50 cents US.
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Okay. What does that mean? What does that mean for the average person watching right now?
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Well, if they're not careful, and this is where people have to plan ahead.
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I've been telling people at all the meetings I presented at, if you have the opportunity to take
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investments, get them into US dollar domination. US companies, US ETFs, whatever you're doing,
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and move it there because face of the US will remain quite stable relative to our currency.
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So that's something that certainly has to be talked about quite a bit. I think it should be
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on top of the mind for people as we move forward to a vote possibly in the fall of this year. What
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currency are we going to use? Yeah. So that's written up in a simplistic form. The guts of it is
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we see a US dollar for transition. So that would be just because the Canadian dollar is going to
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drop like a stone. We're probably not on the best terms of Canada. We'll use US dollars. But long term,
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like within two years or so, we would set up a Alberta dollar, call it what you will.
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And it would be a non fiat currency. Fiat currency is when you hold up a 20 buck bill,
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it's worth nothing. It's a piece of paper. Yeah. But it represents that you and I agree
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that this is 20 bucks and it buys a certain amount of stuff.
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Has this been done before this kind of thing? We used to be backed by gold.
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Oh, of course. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. In the 30s, you know, way back until Nixon,
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you could exchange, you know, so many dollars for gold. So we're just going to go back to that kind
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of structure, probably with the combination of precious metals, gold, silver, and so forth,
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probably against our oil reserves and say, look, we've got umpteen trillion barrels of oil, billion
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barrels of oil and probably some modern elements like Bitcoin or cryptocurrency. And then we cannot
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release more currency unless the value of those assets goes up. Okay. Because I, you know, I think
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people are going to get concerned. Honestly, Dennis, I don't understand Bitcoin all that much.
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I try to, I don't understand it. That's just going to baffle people's brains. And certainly,
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if you're talking, the thing that concerns me as well, we're talking about the American dollar,
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people all of a sudden, they go 51st state, you know, and I know that's not what this is about,
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right? No, no. And it's a transitional thing. And one of the other things we've talked about a lot
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is we would have to give currency supports to the people of Alberta for a time while we're in US dollars.
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So for example, your CPP is paid in Canadian dollars. It's now worth less. You have less
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buying pocket power than you had before. So we'd probably do things like set up a fixed exchange
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rate, maybe what it is today and say, whatever Canadian dollars you bring across the border,
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we will convert that into the Alberta currency at a fixed rate. Okay. So you don't lose anything.
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Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So the other thing, I think it's in here, something that drives me crazy
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as a conservative. What about budgeting? Are we, are we looking at in this document,
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when you're talking about money, when you're talking about economy, are we going to run a,
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have a balanced budget in this province? Is that something that we can do? Obviously,
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we're going to have, it looks like we're going to have surpluses for the first time, really.
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We're running a deficit, I think of about $6 billion in Alberta this year. We wouldn't be
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running that if we didn't give so much to Ottawa, would we have a balanced budget?
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Absolutely. Yeah. And so I'm also heavily involved with writing a new constitution.
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Yeah. And it's a constitutional question. And I think right now we have strong agreement
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that we would limit the government spending according to the GDP of the previous year.
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So essentially pick a number out of the air, 20% of last year's country GDP
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is your budget government live within it. Okay.
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So that's the structure you put in place, but also keep in mind when you've got multiple new
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pipelines coming in, you're not giving money to Ottawa, you're starting to attract business because
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of your low tax regime, we'll have lots of cash. There's no reason for the government of Alberta to
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run a deficit. To the, to the people who are saying, how are things going to be different? You're
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still going to be stuck between Saskatchewan and BC. You can't get your products to a tidewater.
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Even if you do leave the country, what do you say to those people?
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So there's a thing called the UN law of the sea. And there's many other, there's 35, I think,
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landlocked countries in the world, including places like Austria. And the UN law of the sea
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basically says that a nation cannot impair a landlocked country from getting their goods
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to deep water. They have to offer non-punitive tariffs, access to port facilities, all that kind
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of good stuff. So that would be one thing is Canada was a signatory to that. Alberta would be a signatory
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to that. And it, I think it actually would be easier to get pipelines through BC under those rules
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and under the rules of constitution. The second thing, if people say, yeah, but you got no leverage,
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they'll blockade the border. Well, do you know what? CP and CN rail lines run through Alberta,
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as does the Trans-Canada Highway. No one wants to play that game, but if it got down to that,
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you know, it'd be a leverage game and it cuts two ways.
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I was born in the, in the little town of Tabor, Alberta to Dutch parents. So I carry two passports,
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Ah, so perhaps we could have two passports if we have an independent country. Is that correct?
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Absolutely no reason why not. Like I retain my, my Canadian passport now, even though I got a Dutch
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one. And, uh, even when we separate, there's no reason to give up your Canadian citizenship unless
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you want to. And we'd offer obviously an Alberta passport. I don't think it would be exclusive.
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Um, why, I mean, if there were, if somebody said to you, can you give me the number one reason why you
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want an independent Alberta? What is your answer for that?
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Probably I could get into a lot of detail. The guts of it is I no longer believe the
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It's too big, too widespread, two different cultures, five different cultures is my, my premise.
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And what works in Ontario doesn't work in Alberta. And I'm tired of it.
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I, you know, I, I, I go back to what they were saying back in the nineties, back before the, uh,
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the referendum, uh, in Quebec and the words distinct society were used a lot. And, um, being
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from Ontario myself and moving out here, Alberta is a distinct society, Dennis. It is. It just,
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and this is what people don't understand. I, I see people cursing us from the east, calling us a bunch
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of hicks wearing hats and stupid boots. And I think you don't understand what the west is about
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and what we, how we feel out here. We're different out here.
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Indeed. And, and I spent my life working internationally. I've worked in Europe, Asia,
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the United States, lots of places worked across Canada, including Quebec and Ontario.
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And I've always thought I don't have much in common with folks in Quebec.
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Uh, you know, we think differently. We approach problems differently, similarly for Ontario.
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And, and that's fine. They're, they're good people, nothing wrong with them, but it's like saying,
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well, do you have similarities between yourself and someone from Argentina? Short answer is I don't.
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Yeah. Uh, you know, I go back to what Corey Morgan said to me, said, John, you know, your, your aunt Edna
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will still be in Toronto and you're still have friends out on the east coast. We'll just have a different
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relationship. And speaking about Corey, and we'll wrap it up here, but we're going to be with Corey
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Morgan on January the 10th at the Queensland community center, seven o'clock, uh, come on out
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and visit. We're going to be there with Eva Chipiuk as well. You may have seen her. She works with Jeff
00:23:16.020
Rath. I'm going to be there sort of as a moderator, MC of this event. Uh, we're going to be touching on a
00:23:21.220
number of, of those subjects. We touched a little bit on about them here, treaties and being landlocked and
00:23:28.020
things like that. And certainly you're going to be able to talk about this document as well.
00:23:31.380
If people have questions, right? Yes, for sure. And we'll stick around
00:23:34.980
efforts to answer questions one-on-one too, for those people who might be a little shy.
00:23:38.660
Yeah. It's going to be a little different because we're going to kind of have a panel
00:23:41.300
discussion as well. So it'll be very, uh, informative for you. If you've got some
00:23:45.460
really pointed questions, you'll be able to get the answers from Corey, Corey, Eva, Dennis,
00:23:50.580
I'll be there as well. I'd like to thank, uh, Max at Freedom Calendar, uh, go over to his
00:23:55.700
YouTube channel. He does live streaming as well. Uh, he's going to be live streaming the event as
00:23:59.780
well. So if you can't make it out again, it's the Queensland community center, seven o'clock
00:24:03.620
on January 10th, it's going to be a great night. I'm really excited about it. Dennis,
00:24:07.460
it was nice meeting. I've only met you within the last couple of weeks. Have you back again,
00:24:11.380
uh, because, uh, you're just a wealth of knowledge on this, on this topic and being one of the coauthors
00:24:16.740
along with Jeff of this, um, this says so much people should pick this up for sure.
00:24:21.460
I certainly encourage them to read it and thank you for having me on and look forward to further
00:24:26.660
discussions. Dennis Kalma, and we appreciate for, uh, him being on the channel today. And
00:24:32.500
oh, by the way, if you want to ask him any questions, he is on X at Dennis Kalma, D-E-N-N-I-S-K-A-L-M-A.
00:24:40.820
I'll put a link in the description below. Thanks for watching. If you liked this video,
00:24:45.060
give it a thumbs up, subscribe to the channel, ring the bell for notifications. I will see you