Juno News - A Tale of Two Pandemics

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.700 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.580 Coming up, the threat of a third lockdown before we're out of the second lockdown

00:00:16.220 is an election on the horizon and an interview with potential B.C. Liberal leadership candidate Aaron Gunn.

00:00:24.280 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome to another edition of Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:35.380 This is The Andrew Lawton Show on Thursday, March 11th, 2021.

00:00:40.660 Great to have you aboard the program.

00:00:42.860 I am going to be talking later in the show in depth with Aaron Gunn,

00:00:47.000 who is an advocate and activist for taxpayers and civil liberties and all these other great things

00:00:52.180 that you may have heard of. He is entertaining a run for the leadership of the B.C. Liberals.

00:00:57.360 And we'll talk with Aaron about why that's not actually a bad thing.

00:01:00.600 No, I'm not just selling out and interviewing some liberal.

00:01:02.840 The B.C. Liberal is a bit of a different animal.

00:01:05.340 But again, we'll talk about that more later on in the show.

00:01:07.980 I want to talk about the direction things are headed in the pandemic on freedom.

00:01:13.940 And that is something that has been a recurring theme.

00:01:17.400 We've talked in the past about the moving goalposts from the so-called public health advisors.

00:01:22.040 But this story in the Globe and Mail, I think, is giving us a fairly solid roadmap

00:01:28.000 at what may be on the way, at what may be coming down the pipeline.

00:01:32.220 It's based on Ontario, but we know that all of the province's responses tend to be

00:01:36.900 interdependent for the most part when it comes to these sort of things.

00:01:41.100 The headline, we now have two pandemics, variant cases soar in Ontario.

00:01:46.240 The story is based on a brief from Ontario's COVID-19 science table.

00:01:51.480 These are the people who have been behind the modelling that's been wrong

00:01:54.160 pretty much every single time.

00:01:56.680 Peter Juney, who's the director of the science table,

00:01:59.340 an epidemiology professor at the University of Toronto,

00:02:02.700 says there's the traditional pandemic which is under control

00:02:05.880 and the new pandemic which is not under control.

00:02:09.100 So you may have thought we were still in the midst of the first pandemic.

00:02:12.240 We are, and now we have the parallel pandemic.

00:02:14.860 So when one pandemic isn't enough, you add a second pandemic into the mix.

00:02:18.680 But by this time next year, who knows?

00:02:20.420 We may be on pandemic 3.0, 4.0, 5.0.

00:02:23.540 But we're all serving our pandemics concurrently.

00:02:26.560 None of these consecutive sentences like they have in the US.

00:02:29.580 We are doing concurrent pandemics right now.

00:02:33.080 And this means we are going to be seeing more and more lockdowns.

00:02:37.260 Dr. Juney warned, the article says,

00:02:39.380 another lockdown will likely be needed and may have to be stricter than earlier ones.

00:02:45.120 He says,

00:02:46.080 even at their strictest, Ontario's lockdown measures never drove the reproductive number

00:02:51.340 of variant cases below one.

00:02:53.740 That's the problem, he said.

00:02:55.160 It's much more likely that we'll need to have another lockdown

00:02:58.000 and it's much more likely that the lockdown needs to be more efficient than before.

00:03:03.200 Now you may ask what efficient means in the context of a lockdown.

00:03:06.960 Further lockdowns may need to be beefed up with curfews and travel restrictions

00:03:11.740 to make them less what he calls leaky.

00:03:15.500 Now leaky basically means in medical terms,

00:03:18.700 you being able to have some sort of reprieve from literally being on house arrest

00:03:22.720 for how long did the Ontario lockdown last?

00:03:25.220 This time, lockdown 2.0, about two and a half months

00:03:27.880 if you were in parts of the greater Toronto area.

00:03:30.880 So what's happening now is before we're even out of the second lockdown,

00:03:35.140 we're just kind of getting to that point where we might be able to see some hope on the horizon

00:03:39.780 and bam, they're saying,

00:03:41.220 no, no, no, there's a new pandemic now.

00:03:42.880 It's not the old one and that means we need new lockdowns, new restrictions

00:03:46.640 and all of the things that the government stopped short of doing like curfews,

00:03:50.740 well, they're going to have to be there.

00:03:53.260 And I should say this isn't coming from Doug Ford.

00:03:55.800 This isn't coming from the chief medical officer in Ontario.

00:03:58.800 This is coming from the head of the science table,

00:04:01.060 which under normal circumstances you'd say,

00:04:03.000 okay, well, there are some people that are going to be a little bit more alarmist

00:04:05.960 and others that aren't.

00:04:07.080 Well, the government has been pretty deferential to this table.

00:04:11.740 The government has been pretty deferential to the guidelines that are being put forward.

00:04:15.760 So there are either two things happening here.

00:04:17.900 On one hand, this is a test balloon.

00:04:20.040 See how people react and make sure that the person we can blame for this

00:04:24.140 is a guy on the science table and not someone like Doug Ford or Christine Elliott in Ontario.

00:04:29.060 Or they're just trying to put this out now so that when the government does,

00:04:33.520 you know, 90% of this really strict lockdown,

00:04:36.380 it looks like they were being more reasonable because,

00:04:38.800 oh, well, you know, at least they didn't do a curfew.

00:04:40.880 At least they didn't go all the way.

00:04:43.280 That was, I think, the strategy behind what happened in December

00:04:46.940 when all of these media reports were talking about the Ontario government

00:04:50.120 entertaining a curfew.

00:04:51.760 And then all of a sudden the lockdown comes on.

00:04:54.240 There's no curfew.

00:04:55.300 And I'm like, wait, are we supposed to be grateful?

00:04:57.360 Are you supposed to get a gold star?

00:04:59.520 Are we supposed to be relieved that we aren't literally being kept in our houses

00:05:03.480 after a certain point by order of state?

00:05:05.940 No, you don't get brownie points for respecting fundamental freedoms.

00:05:10.360 That is what you're supposed to do.

00:05:12.200 That is the baseline.

00:05:14.280 And at this point, it's looking like we are headed towards a repeat of last year

00:05:19.020 where things are crappy in the winter months.

00:05:21.860 We get a bit of a normalcy return in the summer.

00:05:25.020 And then once the fall comes, we start ramping right up again

00:05:28.460 until we're, boom, in a full-blown lockdown

00:05:30.880 that in this case they say is going to be stricter than the prior ones.

00:05:35.320 And it may not even take that long.

00:05:36.820 I mean, the first cycle was one year.

00:05:38.620 We are now at the one-year anniversary of the World Health Organization

00:05:42.280 declaring this a pandemic, which means in just a few days

00:05:46.140 we'll be at the one-year anniversary of our two weeks to flatten the curve.

00:05:49.640 And we will be entering the 13 months of the 14 days to flatten the curve.

00:05:54.900 So what's happening now is those goalposts continue to move

00:06:00.320 based on numbers that have never quite panned out.

00:06:04.880 And this is not COVID trutherism.

00:06:07.080 This is not saying the pandemic's not real.

00:06:09.140 It's not saying there's not a health risk.

00:06:10.940 It means that when numbers have been put forward to justify actions,

00:06:14.400 not only have we steered clear of the worst-case scenario,

00:06:17.240 in many cases we've steered clear of the best-case scenario.

00:06:20.740 We've come out better than the best-case scenario.

00:06:24.840 And this is something that we should be proud of.

00:06:26.940 We should be happy about this.

00:06:28.940 But instead there's this sort of Damocles hanging over our heads

00:06:32.280 where governments are going to keep threatening more and more lockdowns

00:06:35.820 because they've moved their priorities.

00:06:38.240 They've moved their goals.

00:06:40.020 Just to put this in context,

00:06:41.720 Ontario's long-term care virus mortality has dropped 96%.

00:06:46.760 Now, this is based on a report from the actual science table,

00:06:50.400 a brief that came out of the latest data from long-term care homes.

00:06:54.060 And they found that 96% drop.

00:06:58.440 So if the goal was, as it should have been,

00:07:01.180 target the most vulnerable,

00:07:02.800 a combination of vaccinations and other efforts

00:07:05.480 at long-term care homes have actually been working.

00:07:09.240 So it's a little bit odd to me

00:07:11.620 that on one hand we've been told the vaccine is the goal.

00:07:14.640 And once we get everyone vaccinated,

00:07:16.460 then we're going to be able to go back and live our lives normally.

00:07:19.760 And that's fine.

00:07:21.220 Well, if the vaccine schedule is what it is

00:07:23.440 and we'll be able to get everyone who wants to be vaccinated,

00:07:26.060 vaccinated by September,

00:07:27.400 notwithstanding different schedules

00:07:29.500 and different lines that we get from the federal government

00:07:32.320 about which doses are coming when and all that.

00:07:34.820 But if the plan is that by the fall,

00:07:36.600 we want to have most of the country vaccinated,

00:07:38.900 why is there a need for another lockdown?

00:07:43.680 See, what the government is using as a cudgel here is the variant.

00:07:47.480 And this is what they're saying in Ontario,

00:07:49.040 that, well, you know what?

00:07:50.020 The traditional pandemic strain,

00:07:52.020 the traditional COVID strain has been on the decline.

00:07:55.240 It's plummeted, but the variants have skyrocketed.

00:07:57.580 They're saying, I think, 40% of the Ontario cases

00:08:00.520 are one of the so-called variants of concern,

00:08:03.420 which are the viruses that originated in Brazil,

00:08:06.160 South Africa, and the United Kingdom.

00:08:07.780 You're allowed to say those.

00:08:09.200 You're not allowed to say the Wuhan variant,

00:08:10.900 but you're allowed to say these other three places.

00:08:12.840 So take from that what you will.

00:08:14.840 But what they're saying is that, okay,

00:08:16.240 those are the new things and they're more infectious.

00:08:18.200 They're more deadly.

00:08:18.980 We have all these other problems that come from that.

00:08:22.020 But it also seems like the vaccine

00:08:24.060 is still protecting people against that.

00:08:26.760 If long-term care fatalities are going down significantly

00:08:31.260 and that's where the vaccine priorities were,

00:08:33.780 then what's the problem?

00:08:35.460 What are they not telling us?

00:08:37.780 And this, by the way, is not a grand conspiracy here.

00:08:40.580 I think that there's been a lot of ineptitude.

00:08:43.160 I think early on in the process,

00:08:44.860 you had to err on the side of caution,

00:08:47.080 simply not knowing what you were dealing with.

00:08:50.800 But what the government is trying to do,

00:08:53.000 what public health advisors are trying to do

00:08:55.020 is use the variant as justification

00:08:57.440 to go right back to square one and say,

00:08:59.620 okay, everything we've learned,

00:09:01.480 we're starting from zero.

00:09:02.460 We no longer know what we're dealing with.

00:09:05.260 With the exception of South Africa,

00:09:07.320 where there was some concern that the AstraZeneca virus

00:09:09.900 specifically wasn't protecting against the strain,

00:09:12.840 and it wasn't definitive.

00:09:14.080 They're saying they needed more study.

00:09:15.540 There hasn't actually been any reasonable grounds

00:09:18.300 to say that the vaccine plan,

00:09:20.200 if that's their plan, isn't helping.

00:09:22.180 It isn't going against these other variants.

00:09:25.140 And if these variants are becoming dominant in Ontario,

00:09:28.080 and Ontario's ramping up its vaccines,

00:09:30.120 then what's the problem?

00:09:31.740 And I know there are a lot of people who watch this

00:09:34.060 that are not fans of the vaccine.

00:09:35.600 Listen, I am the first person to jump up

00:09:37.760 and say mandatory vaccines are wrong.

00:09:39.920 For people that want it, let them have it.

00:09:42.060 That's what choice is.

00:09:44.260 But I'm just talking about the government's own rhetoric on this.

00:09:47.480 They say that the vaccine is the goal.

00:09:50.260 Remember, that's why two weeks to flatten the curve

00:09:52.400 became just a couple of weeks longer,

00:09:53.980 and then so on and so forth until when there's a vaccine,

00:09:57.580 and then when everyone can get vaccinated.

00:09:59.500 So we're nearing that point.

00:10:00.900 We're nearing that point where everyone

00:10:02.040 who wants to be vaccinated is going to be,

00:10:04.240 and the government's still talking about

00:10:05.820 plunging us into another lockdown,

00:10:07.540 which just doesn't align with the goals.

00:10:11.040 And this is why there are a lot of people who are saying

00:10:13.380 that they think some of the measures

00:10:15.080 that governments have imposed

00:10:17.060 are here to stay even after a vaccine.

00:10:20.340 I wouldn't be surprised if masks on airplanes

00:10:23.120 become the new normal.

00:10:24.680 I wouldn't be surprised if masks in venues

00:10:27.460 of mass congregation become the new normal.

00:10:31.000 And all of a sudden, what we will see

00:10:32.720 is actually a competition among jurisdictions

00:10:35.440 for who can be the most free.

00:10:38.820 And I think it's actually going to be interesting

00:10:40.800 to watch this,

00:10:41.800 because if countries like Canada decide

00:10:44.320 that if you want to go to a big rock concert in,

00:10:46.400 I don't know, like 2027,

00:10:47.600 you have to be masked up,

00:10:49.180 even though COVID will have been long gone by then,

00:10:51.460 we hope.

00:10:52.020 Well, all of a sudden,

00:10:53.020 everyone's going to want to go

00:10:54.000 to the big concerts in Florida,

00:10:56.140 or what's that?

00:10:57.100 There's a big outdoor venue near me in Michigan,

00:10:59.920 the DTE Center, I think,

00:11:01.260 and other spots like that as well.

00:11:02.900 People are going to want to go elsewhere.

00:11:04.760 And this is, I think, something that is so key.

00:11:07.060 If the goalposts keep moving,

00:11:10.560 eventually no one wants to play the game.

00:11:13.360 And that's where a lot of Canadians are.

00:11:15.660 And the government's biggest fear right now

00:11:18.000 is not COVID, it's not the variant,

00:11:19.940 it's not vaccine shortages.

00:11:21.520 Their biggest fear is the delegitimization of themselves.

00:11:26.500 That's their big concern right now,

00:11:28.360 is the pandemic fatigue that is sweeping people

00:11:31.140 in Canada and across the country,

00:11:32.760 but I'll say Canada in particular,

00:11:34.720 which has just seemed to do

00:11:35.880 a particularly bad job

00:11:37.560 at keeping up with even less developed,

00:11:40.920 less wealthy countries

00:11:41.960 when it comes to getting back to normal

00:11:43.900 and getting back into the swing of things.

00:11:46.160 And at a certain point,

00:11:47.620 people have to start seeing through

00:11:49.440 the making it up as they go along trend,

00:11:52.060 which again, may have been good

00:11:53.180 for the first few months.

00:11:54.560 Maybe even you can stretch it out

00:11:56.180 to four or five months,

00:11:57.480 but a year in,

00:11:58.620 the making it up as you go along thing

00:12:00.480 loses the legitimacy it had then

00:12:03.180 because you've had a year.

00:12:05.040 You've had a pretty long runway right now.

00:12:07.720 One example of this inaction

00:12:09.200 was this exchange in,

00:12:11.680 it wasn't in question period,

00:12:12.780 it was in committee,

00:12:13.480 an exchange between Michelle Remble,

00:12:15.040 who we actually played a clip from on the show

00:12:17.080 earlier in the week,

00:12:18.300 and Health Minister,

00:12:19.660 Politburo Patty Hajdu.

00:12:21.020 Take a look.

00:12:21.840 My question is material

00:12:22.860 and I would like a yes or no answer.

00:12:24.980 So out of respect to that victim,

00:12:26.720 a yes or no answer is needed.

00:12:28.660 Thank you.

00:12:29.100 The data,

00:12:31.300 the data.

00:12:31.860 Go ahead.

00:12:33.060 The Minister will answer the question

00:12:34.860 in the fashion she chooses

00:12:36.220 to answer the question.

00:12:37.800 Whether or not the member

00:12:39.640 is satisfied with the answer

00:12:41.060 is an entirely different matter.

00:12:43.680 She will have the same amount of time

00:12:45.380 to answer the question

00:12:46.540 as was to ask the question.

00:12:49.340 So with that, Minister,

00:12:50.840 you have about 10 seconds.

00:12:52.040 Thanks.

00:12:52.520 I will just say this.

00:12:53.520 The data is incomplete internationally.

00:12:55.820 We are, as a world,

00:12:57.120 trying to figure out

00:12:57.940 what the best approach is

00:12:59.140 to prevent the importation of COVID-19,

00:13:01.500 the combination of quarantine and testing,

00:13:03.860 and we are under,

00:13:04.660 it is understudied.

00:13:05.620 Thank you.

00:13:06.920 So is that an admission

00:13:08.320 that this was a political decision

00:13:09.820 to discourage March break travel

00:13:11.860 as opposed to a data-driven decision

00:13:13.420 that shows that the quarantine hotel program

00:13:15.460 would do better at spreading the variants

00:13:17.840 than at-home quarantine?

00:13:18.860 No, I think it's inappropriate

00:13:23.340 for the member to put words in my mouth.

00:13:25.260 What I said is exactly what I just said,

00:13:27.520 which is that we take our obligation

00:13:29.220 very seriously to ensure

00:13:31.320 that we are doing everything in our power

00:13:33.540 to prevent the importation of COVID-19

00:13:35.800 and, in particular, the variants of concern.

00:13:39.320 So where's the data?

00:13:40.720 As I answered previously,

00:13:42.700 the data is incomplete

00:13:44.220 in terms of what combination of measures are.

00:13:46.980 Now, that was from the Public Safety

00:13:49.160 and National Security Committee,

00:13:51.600 which Patty Hajdu was testifying before,

00:13:54.520 but the questions were very simple.

00:13:56.140 Do you have any data?

00:13:57.180 Do you know what's happening?

00:13:58.660 And Patty Hajdu's response is,

00:14:00.480 well, you know, it's still,

00:14:01.520 it's incomplete and we don't know.

00:14:03.240 And in fairness to,

00:14:04.800 I can't believe I'm about to say this,

00:14:06.280 but in fairness to Minister Hajdu,

00:14:08.100 you can't have full data on a program

00:14:10.480 that was just launched not that long ago.

00:14:13.260 So I don't expect her to have complete data.

00:14:15.160 But what was interesting

00:14:16.780 is how she didn't seem to have any data whatsoever.

00:14:20.100 She didn't seem to have any knowledge.

00:14:21.840 The government didn't test this project.

00:14:23.900 The government didn't really do anything,

00:14:25.880 anything to suggest that it knew

00:14:27.740 that this was going to be a positive force.

00:14:32.180 And I talked about this on Tuesday.

00:14:34.740 And what's happened here

00:14:36.120 is the government has tried to make travel effectively banned.

00:14:39.620 They can't ban it,

00:14:40.540 but they've tried to make it so convoluted

00:14:42.340 and so expensive that no one travels.

00:14:44.060 In doing so,

00:14:45.360 they make it so that the only people

00:14:47.040 that can afford to do vacations

00:14:48.560 and take the three-day quarantine

00:14:50.360 and then the two-week home quarantine

00:14:52.060 and so on are the uber wealthy.

00:14:54.980 But the reality is

00:14:56.320 there's a lot of essential international travel.

00:14:58.680 Even today in the era of Zoom,

00:15:00.200 there are a lot of things you can't do for Zoom,

00:15:02.060 like being with a dying relative,

00:15:03.740 like going to a funeral overseas,

00:15:05.620 even going away

00:15:06.660 because you need a break for your mental health

00:15:08.720 or whatever the case may be.

00:15:09.960 And we have compassionate exemptions

00:15:13.180 for people coming into the country

00:15:14.760 to get out of hotel quarantine,

00:15:16.460 but nothing for people going out of it.

00:15:20.160 And everyone likes to conjure up this image in their mind

00:15:23.120 of what an international traveler is.

00:15:25.200 And I think the government would like us to believe

00:15:27.160 that it's all just, you know,

00:15:28.440 19-year-old spring breakers,

00:15:30.040 and that's what international travel is right now.

00:15:33.140 But there are a lot of people,

00:15:34.580 if you look around at airports,

00:15:35.840 that look like they're going for school,

00:15:37.480 for work,

00:15:38.340 for they could be going for compassionate reasons,

00:15:40.840 visit family,

00:15:41.800 maybe they're going to a funeral,

00:15:43.120 all of these circumstances,

00:15:44.580 which are completely legitimate.

00:15:47.020 And if anyone were to ever ask,

00:15:48.700 what's the purpose of your trip?

00:15:50.080 I think the answer is none of your damn business.

00:15:52.180 That's, I think you get to decide

00:15:53.880 whether something's essential or not like that.

00:15:56.540 But there are a lot of reasons

00:15:57.960 that people are traveling,

00:15:58.980 and these are not just people of means.

00:16:01.600 So what the government is doing

00:16:02.800 is penalizing people

00:16:03.980 who for whatever reason

00:16:04.900 want to or need to leave the country

00:16:06.520 and come back.

00:16:07.760 And there is a legal challenge

00:16:09.420 going on about this.

00:16:10.580 The Canadian Constitution Foundation

00:16:12.400 is filing a constitutional challenge

00:16:15.300 of the hotel quarantine program.

00:16:18.460 And the basis of this is very simple.

00:16:20.740 They say this is a violation

00:16:21.960 of Canadians' right to enter Canada.

00:16:25.300 It's a violation of their right to liberty.

00:16:27.780 And it's a violation of their right

00:16:29.680 to be free from arbitrary detention,

00:16:32.240 as well as free from cruel

00:16:33.820 and unusual punishment.

00:16:34.960 And if you look at some of the conditions

00:16:36.200 of these hotels,

00:16:37.460 you can see how cruel

00:16:39.020 and unusual punishment

00:16:39.980 actually applies

00:16:40.840 to some of these airport hotels.

00:16:42.600 And I'm looking right now,

00:16:43.460 I got my own passport out.

00:16:44.880 I dug my own passport out

00:16:46.200 because I had seen people share this.

00:16:47.760 And to be honest,

00:16:48.320 I'm not sure if I had ever read

00:16:49.640 the message that's on the opening page.

00:16:52.480 I don't think there's anything here

00:16:53.380 you can't see on it.

00:16:54.220 But it says,

00:16:54.660 the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Canada

00:16:57.400 requests in the name

00:16:59.260 of Her Majesty the Queen

00:17:00.740 all those whom it may concern

00:17:02.700 to allow the bearer

00:17:04.080 to pass freely

00:17:05.340 without delay or hindrance

00:17:07.320 and to afford the bearer

00:17:08.880 such assistance and protection

00:17:10.600 as may be necessary.

00:17:13.300 Pass freely without delay.

00:17:16.160 That's the point.

00:17:17.680 And like all constitutional freedoms

00:17:19.700 like this,

00:17:20.640 the government is choosing

00:17:21.580 to ignore it

00:17:22.560 under the auspices

00:17:23.480 of public health advice

00:17:25.120 that isn't really rooted yet

00:17:26.900 in any sort of science.

00:17:28.660 I say yet because

00:17:29.400 if they were to come out

00:17:30.520 and say,

00:17:30.880 well, actually,

00:17:31.420 here's the science, great.

00:17:32.900 And that's part of what the CCF

00:17:34.700 is trying to do

00:17:35.380 in its legal challenge.

00:17:36.380 They're actually trying

00:17:37.040 to get the government

00:17:37.780 to pony up its data.

00:17:40.360 And you may remember

00:17:41.080 this is also part

00:17:42.360 of the James Coates case

00:17:43.880 in Edmonton

00:17:44.900 where the Justice Center

00:17:45.940 for Constitutional Freedoms

00:17:47.280 is trying to get the government

00:17:48.440 to say,

00:17:49.000 you say that churches

00:17:49.800 can't operate

00:17:50.600 at the capacity limits

00:17:52.340 they want, great.

00:17:53.360 Show us the numbers.

00:17:54.740 It's on you.

00:17:55.460 You're the one

00:17:55.900 that's putting this limit in.

00:17:57.300 You're the one

00:17:57.900 that's limiting charter rights,

00:17:59.340 constitutional rights.

00:18:00.620 You, therefore,

00:18:01.500 have to be the ones

00:18:02.440 to provide the evidence

00:18:03.640 that that is a reasonable limitation,

00:18:06.320 a reasonable limit

00:18:07.460 of one's freedoms.

00:18:09.860 And it's going to be

00:18:10.800 very difficult

00:18:11.460 for governments

00:18:12.060 to provide that

00:18:13.460 if they,

00:18:14.480 as it's looking like,

00:18:15.880 genuinely do not have it.

00:18:18.120 If they genuinely

00:18:18.880 don't have

00:18:19.520 the data on which

00:18:20.740 they are resting

00:18:21.860 their entire apparatus.

00:18:25.280 And I will say

00:18:26.040 the CCF case,

00:18:27.040 what's interesting about it

00:18:28.040 is they are representing

00:18:29.440 five people

00:18:30.960 who need to travel imminently

00:18:32.580 or who have

00:18:33.580 recently returned

00:18:34.680 from doing so.

00:18:35.780 One of them

00:18:36.520 was a guy

00:18:37.240 with a cross-border marriage

00:18:38.380 who needs to help his wife

00:18:39.560 who's disabled

00:18:40.420 prepare for surgery.

00:18:42.380 There are other reasons,

00:18:43.340 as I've said,

00:18:43.880 that aren't just

00:18:44.380 spring breakers

00:18:45.400 or, you know,

00:18:46.020 wealthy elite family vacations

00:18:47.500 where people are needing

00:18:48.860 to go abroad.

00:18:50.620 And doing so

00:18:51.460 and subjecting them

00:18:52.340 to this three-day

00:18:53.620 hotel imprisonment,

00:18:55.240 which I think actually

00:18:56.220 the prisons are giving you

00:18:57.060 better food,

00:18:57.760 so that's one thing

00:18:58.560 to keep in mind.

00:18:59.220 But doing this,

00:18:59.980 if it's not providing

00:19:01.260 a benefit

00:19:01.760 in any public health sense,

00:19:03.840 where's the justification

00:19:04.900 for it?

00:19:06.720 And remember,

00:19:07.680 we already have for air,

00:19:09.020 this only is for air travelers,

00:19:10.360 travelers.

00:19:11.060 This isn't for land travelers.

00:19:12.780 So for air travelers,

00:19:13.720 we already have the requirement

00:19:16.000 of a PCR test

00:19:17.860 before you come in.

00:19:19.480 We already have the requirement

00:19:21.080 that you quarantine

00:19:21.900 for 14 days at home.

00:19:24.780 We're not adding

00:19:26.200 any extra layer of security.

00:19:28.180 We're adding an extra filter layer.

00:19:30.160 We're adding an extra layer

00:19:31.520 of theatrics,

00:19:32.280 but we're not actually adding

00:19:33.220 an extra layer of security

00:19:34.520 when we do this.

00:19:36.000 It came about

00:19:36.600 because government

00:19:37.240 needed a scapegoat.

00:19:38.500 They needed to say

00:19:39.220 they were doing something.

00:19:40.120 They needed to keep

00:19:40.700 the fear alive.

00:19:41.760 So boom,

00:19:42.320 international travel,

00:19:43.300 they became the scapegoats.

00:19:46.100 Canadians are starting

00:19:47.020 to see through it

00:19:47.820 and I think Canadians

00:19:48.600 are starting to see

00:19:49.560 that the numbers

00:19:50.760 just don't align

00:19:51.580 with the level of fear

00:19:52.560 we're told to sustain.

00:19:54.400 We've got to take a break

00:19:55.420 when we come back

00:19:56.080 more of The Andrew Lawton Show

00:19:57.360 here on True North.

00:19:59.980 You're tuned in

00:20:01.120 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:20:03.720 Welcome back

00:20:04.520 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:20:05.860 I try not to do

00:20:06.760 too much content

00:20:07.740 that falls into

00:20:08.800 just the general horse race

00:20:10.360 because I find that stuff

00:20:11.380 gets very boring.

00:20:12.640 Oh, is there going

00:20:13.380 to be an election?

00:20:14.000 Is there not?

00:20:14.640 And the answer is

00:20:15.960 that I have no idea.

00:20:17.220 And everyone times

00:20:17.780 when asked me

00:20:18.320 if I think

00:20:18.900 there's going to be

00:20:19.300 an election.

00:20:19.780 I have to say something

00:20:20.620 in a way that makes

00:20:21.600 it sound like I'm smart.

00:20:22.660 But really,

00:20:23.160 we all are just

00:20:24.500 flying blind on this.

00:20:26.040 What we do know

00:20:26.780 is that the government

00:20:27.520 is not particularly eager

00:20:29.200 to put forward a budget.

00:20:30.660 The reason for that

00:20:31.620 may be that

00:20:32.380 they don't want people

00:20:33.080 to see how broke they are.

00:20:34.600 Or perhaps the liberals

00:20:36.000 are just not

00:20:37.080 particularly confident

00:20:38.100 that they could get

00:20:38.980 their budget passed.

00:20:39.900 Maybe that's why

00:20:40.520 they don't want

00:20:41.380 to give an easy out

00:20:42.300 to have anyone

00:20:43.280 trigger the downfall

00:20:44.420 of the government.

00:20:45.460 I don't think

00:20:46.540 that the government

00:20:47.120 wants there to be

00:20:48.020 an election

00:20:48.540 when Canadians

00:20:49.780 are wondering,

00:20:50.800 hey, why can't

00:20:51.300 we get vaccinated?

00:20:52.260 When Canadian politicians

00:20:53.460 are talking about

00:20:54.380 a third lockdown,

00:20:56.520 ideally, you'd think

00:20:57.420 Justin Trudeau

00:20:58.060 would want to be campaigning

00:20:59.440 when he can do

00:21:00.360 the George Bush

00:21:01.140 mission accomplished banner

00:21:02.640 behind him

00:21:03.260 and say, yes,

00:21:04.180 we defeated the pandemic.

00:21:05.680 We defeated COVID

00:21:06.480 and now you've got

00:21:07.500 to reelect me.

00:21:08.300 That I think

00:21:08.840 would be what he wants.

00:21:09.920 Now, if he wants

00:21:10.820 to do that,

00:21:11.300 he has to actually do it

00:21:12.540 and right now

00:21:13.320 we're nowhere near

00:21:14.060 on track to do that.

00:21:15.480 But there still is

00:21:16.300 a big problem

00:21:16.960 for the conservatives

00:21:17.740 because a lot of people

00:21:18.640 on the right say,

00:21:19.840 you know what,

00:21:20.200 my singular goal is

00:21:21.400 I want to get rid

00:21:21.980 of Justin Trudeau

00:21:22.780 so we need an election.

00:21:24.800 But if you're going

00:21:25.520 to do that,

00:21:26.120 you better make sure

00:21:26.980 you can win.

00:21:27.740 That was what Sun Tzu

00:21:29.020 said in The Art of War.

00:21:31.040 If you're going

00:21:31.520 to go to war,

00:21:32.240 you better make sure

00:21:33.080 you have a plan

00:21:34.080 for victory.

00:21:35.360 And right now,

00:21:36.040 I don't think

00:21:36.620 the conservatives have that.

00:21:37.880 Now, they've got

00:21:39.160 this weekend coming up

00:21:40.380 their virtual convention

00:21:42.140 and like any virtual convention,

00:21:43.680 generally speaking,

00:21:44.680 I don't particularly

00:21:45.960 care about it.

00:21:47.040 This one I might

00:21:47.840 tune into a little bit

00:21:48.880 but basically,

00:21:50.080 the conservatives

00:21:50.600 are trying to have

00:21:51.920 their first opportunity

00:21:52.900 to rally together

00:21:53.920 since Aaron O'Toole

00:21:55.340 was crowned the leader

00:21:56.840 back in August.

00:21:59.280 And Aaron O'Toole

00:21:59.980 says that it's going

00:22:00.860 to be a turning point

00:22:02.000 for the party.

00:22:03.020 There was a piece

00:22:03.760 in the National Post,

00:22:04.780 though,

00:22:04.980 that seems to suggest

00:22:06.020 there is a bit

00:22:06.740 of discontent

00:22:08.040 coming from the ranks

00:22:09.360 of the conservative caucus

00:22:10.420 basically wanting to know,

00:22:12.280 hey, where the heck are we?

00:22:13.260 Feeling a bit stagnant.

00:22:14.600 And you always have

00:22:15.320 to be careful

00:22:15.860 about these stories

00:22:16.720 which rely on unnamed sources

00:22:18.900 and you never quite know

00:22:20.140 how strong the connections

00:22:21.420 are between the reporter

00:22:23.060 and the so-called caucus members.

00:22:25.680 We, I mean,

00:22:26.200 don't want to accuse them

00:22:27.180 of making it up,

00:22:28.140 of course.

00:22:28.600 But the problem

00:22:29.780 with these sorts of things

00:22:30.780 is that they feed

00:22:31.880 into the media narrative,

00:22:32.960 which is that the conservatives

00:22:34.820 are just nowhere

00:22:35.900 to be found on this.

00:22:38.340 And I would say that's true.

00:22:39.600 I mean,

00:22:39.880 the goal of the opposition

00:22:41.060 is to oppose.

00:22:42.300 That's their job.

00:22:43.320 And whenever they say

00:22:44.280 that Trudeau is

00:22:45.180 screwing this up

00:22:46.240 and screwing that up

00:22:47.120 but not wanting an election,

00:22:49.600 you always have to wonder,

00:22:50.720 well, hang on.

00:22:51.200 If you say this is so terrible,

00:22:52.480 why are you not

00:22:53.180 pushing for an election?

00:22:54.360 Why are you not pushing

00:22:55.080 for a changing of the guard?

00:22:57.180 And the reason is

00:22:58.200 because in Canadian politics,

00:22:59.820 generally speaking,

00:23:00.740 there's a belief

00:23:02.220 that I think has some merit

00:23:03.560 that if you push the election,

00:23:05.540 you get punished for it.

00:23:06.980 If you're,

00:23:07.620 if the election

00:23:08.100 is your responsibility,

00:23:09.040 you're the one

00:23:09.800 that the voters

00:23:10.300 will retaliate against

00:23:11.740 in a little bit of a way.

00:23:12.740 I mean,

00:23:12.880 it doesn't mean

00:23:13.300 you automatically lose,

00:23:14.440 but maybe it costs you

00:23:15.680 a couple of points,

00:23:16.460 especially the theory goes

00:23:18.320 in the midst of a pandemic

00:23:19.560 when everyone's saying

00:23:20.560 that, well,

00:23:21.320 you know what,

00:23:21.860 we,

00:23:22.120 no one wants to go

00:23:22.720 to the polls in a pandemic.

00:23:24.840 Well, the problem with that

00:23:25.800 is that,

00:23:26.200 well,

00:23:26.520 there are a few problems.

00:23:27.420 Number one,

00:23:28.000 we've seen provinces in Canada

00:23:29.340 go to the polls

00:23:29.960 without issue,

00:23:30.680 except for Newfoundland,

00:23:31.580 which just screwed things up so bad.

00:23:33.380 The U.S. went to the polls.

00:23:34.800 Other countries have gone to the polls.

00:23:36.700 You know,

00:23:37.120 if this were just going on

00:23:38.140 for one year,

00:23:38.860 you may be able

00:23:39.520 to suspend democracy,

00:23:40.760 but if we are going to be heading

00:23:42.500 into a three-year

00:23:43.640 multi-pandemic,

00:23:44.680 multi-lockdown ordeal,

00:23:46.580 you can't just indefinitely

00:23:47.960 hold off elections

00:23:49.080 because,

00:23:49.780 but there's a pandemic!

00:23:51.220 Well, great,

00:23:51.860 apparently there's always

00:23:52.620 going to be a pandemic,

00:23:53.600 or two or three

00:23:54.540 or four or five,

00:23:55.480 like we were talking about

00:23:56.620 at the beginning.

00:23:57.480 So don't let that be an excuse

00:23:59.180 for not going to the polls.

00:24:00.740 I'd say when there's a time of crisis

00:24:02.480 and you need good government,

00:24:03.820 that's when it is especially important

00:24:05.820 to have an election.

00:24:07.200 Now,

00:24:07.520 I'm not pushing for it.

00:24:08.680 What I'm doing

00:24:09.220 is I'm dispelling the excuses

00:24:10.720 that people tend to use.

00:24:13.140 But I think the reason

00:24:14.260 the Conservatives

00:24:14.940 are not pushing for an election

00:24:16.760 is because I don't know

00:24:18.140 if the Conservatives

00:24:18.940 think they have a message

00:24:20.240 that is ready to be sold yet.

00:24:23.020 I don't think they have a platform.

00:24:24.580 I don't think anyone knows

00:24:25.820 Aaron O'Toole.

00:24:27.000 Aaron O'Toole has repeatedly

00:24:28.340 introduced himself

00:24:29.460 to the voters,

00:24:30.900 but in doing so,

00:24:32.060 maybe people aren't

00:24:33.160 paying attention,

00:24:33.860 maybe he hasn't captured

00:24:34.900 what it is

00:24:35.460 that they need to see

00:24:36.580 about him yet.

00:24:38.480 And the NDP

00:24:39.820 are just completely broke.

00:24:41.620 They don't want an election

00:24:42.420 for their own selfish reasons

00:24:43.660 because they don't think

00:24:44.420 they're going to do

00:24:45.000 particularly better.

00:24:46.380 The Bloc Québécois

00:24:47.260 is kind of interesting.

00:24:48.500 I mean,

00:24:48.840 they're in a pretty good spot

00:24:49.940 right now.

00:24:50.460 They may not want to take

00:24:51.520 the risk of their seat count

00:24:52.620 going down.

00:24:53.260 But it's important to note

00:24:54.660 that whether or not

00:24:55.480 there's going to be an election

00:24:56.560 has nothing to do

00:24:57.600 with whether or not

00:24:58.200 there should be an election.

00:24:59.420 It has nothing to do

00:25:00.240 with anything like that.

00:25:01.860 It has to do with

00:25:02.860 whether one single party

00:25:05.340 decides that it wants

00:25:07.080 to get behind the Liberals.

00:25:08.260 If one single party

00:25:09.260 between the NDP,

00:25:10.220 the Conservatives,

00:25:12.040 and the Bloc Québécois

00:25:13.120 backs Trudeau,

00:25:14.280 he's in power

00:25:15.080 and could go the distance.

00:25:16.260 Could be there four years.

00:25:17.380 Who knows?

00:25:18.420 That's what it comes down to.

00:25:19.740 So ask the questions

00:25:20.920 of your MPs, sure.

00:25:21.960 But it is important

00:25:23.940 to see through

00:25:24.740 the opposition

00:25:25.540 from those three parties

00:25:27.560 when they're not prepared

00:25:28.840 to go as far as to say,

00:25:30.380 all right,

00:25:30.800 I'm voting against confidence

00:25:32.520 in this government.

00:25:34.240 When we come back,

00:25:35.140 we'll talk to Aaron Gunn

00:25:36.020 here on The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:25:37.640 Stay with me.

00:25:41.000 You're tuned in

00:25:42.160 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:25:43.680 We are back.

00:25:48.100 I know being in Ontario,

00:25:49.360 I sometimes drift towards

00:25:50.840 Ontario politics

00:25:51.940 when I feel it has

00:25:52.920 a national focus.

00:25:53.980 So I do hope you forgive me

00:25:55.020 for that.

00:25:55.680 But we're making up

00:25:56.420 for it today.

00:25:57.440 As many of you know,

00:25:58.500 I was in British Columbia

00:25:59.760 last week doing filming

00:26:01.680 and production on Assaulted,

00:26:03.520 Justin Trudeau's war

00:26:04.520 on gun owners.

00:26:06.000 And while I was in BC,

00:26:06.980 I had a down afternoon.

00:26:08.940 Not sad,

00:26:09.660 but I mean,

00:26:09.960 I didn't have anything scheduled.

00:26:10.960 So I decided to catch up

00:26:13.060 with an old friend of mine,

00:26:14.220 Aaron Gunn,

00:26:15.240 who has done tremendous work

00:26:17.100 around BC

00:26:17.800 and I would say

00:26:18.380 around the country,

00:26:19.520 advocating first

00:26:20.500 for taxpayer interests.

00:26:21.840 And he's since broadened that

00:26:23.060 to a lot of other solid

00:26:24.540 small C conservative ideas.

00:26:26.620 And he is looking

00:26:27.620 to take the leap

00:26:28.500 from independent media

00:26:29.640 to politics,

00:26:31.380 musing a run

00:26:32.600 for the leadership

00:26:33.500 of the BC Liberal Party.

00:26:35.580 Now,

00:26:35.780 as far as BC politics goes,

00:26:37.400 the BC Liberals

00:26:38.340 tend to be

00:26:39.320 the more electable

00:26:41.400 conservative-ish party.

00:26:43.760 But the ish is doing

00:26:45.080 a lot of heavy lifting there,

00:26:46.320 as we'll talk about

00:26:46.960 with Aaron.

00:26:47.380 There's a lot of overlap

00:26:48.220 between the BC Liberals

00:26:49.440 and the Federal Conservatives,

00:26:51.220 but there's also

00:26:52.140 some overlap

00:26:52.760 between the BC Liberals

00:26:54.000 and the Federal Liberals.

00:26:55.680 So the question comes down to

00:26:57.080 can this be

00:26:57.800 a conservative party

00:26:58.780 and is that enough

00:26:59.900 to get a conservative government

00:27:01.540 in British Columbia?

00:27:03.420 Lots to chew on.

00:27:04.340 Here's my interview

00:27:05.040 with potential BC Liberal

00:27:06.820 leadership candidate,

00:27:08.160 Aaron Gunn.

00:27:09.320 Aaron Gunn,

00:27:09.980 he's been a friend

00:27:10.580 of True North.

00:27:11.100 Good to talk to you.

00:27:12.040 It's great to be here.

00:27:13.100 So let's start

00:27:14.200 right out of the gate.

00:27:14.900 Are you running

00:27:15.400 for the leadership

00:27:16.140 of the BC Liberals?

00:27:17.420 I am seriously considering it.

00:27:19.180 I'm doing my due diligence.

00:27:20.620 The rules just came out

00:27:21.860 pretty recently

00:27:22.700 and it's something

00:27:23.920 that we're considering.

00:27:24.780 I've been inundated

00:27:26.760 with messages

00:27:27.880 both on Facebook

00:27:29.460 and emails

00:27:30.060 and texts

00:27:30.640 from friends and supporters

00:27:32.120 encouraging me

00:27:32.880 to do something

00:27:33.960 with the sad state

00:27:34.880 of affairs of BC politics

00:27:36.320 and it's something

00:27:37.180 I'm taking really seriously.

00:27:39.080 Why would you want to?

00:27:40.660 I mean,

00:27:41.060 this is, I think,

00:27:41.780 a big question

00:27:42.480 that you've yourself

00:27:44.280 been on the forefront

00:27:45.020 of criticizing the state

00:27:46.640 of BC politics,

00:27:48.360 of politics in general

00:27:49.560 and of the BC Liberal Party.

00:27:50.900 You've got a great thing

00:27:52.120 going for you right now

00:27:53.020 talking about the issues.

00:27:54.200 Why decide to jump into this?

00:27:56.980 Well, that's a great question.

00:27:59.520 Already, I've seen

00:28:00.420 in just the last couple weeks

00:28:01.620 since my name

00:28:02.420 started being rumored,

00:28:03.360 there's the, you know,

00:28:05.040 the attacks

00:28:05.580 over social media,

00:28:06.800 the character assassinations,

00:28:09.420 Press Progress

00:28:10.020 did a big piece on me.

00:28:11.420 So that is a great question

00:28:12.740 and I ask myself

00:28:14.580 that sometimes.

00:28:15.720 But on the other hand,

00:28:16.700 in the last

00:28:17.600 provincial election,

00:28:19.060 I was sitting back

00:28:20.160 and watching it.

00:28:20.820 I'm a resident

00:28:21.380 of British Columbia.

00:28:22.180 I was born here.

00:28:23.220 I was raised here

00:28:24.140 and it was just

00:28:25.080 frankly pathetic.

00:28:26.160 There were two choices,

00:28:27.480 the NDP

00:28:27.920 and the NDP light.

00:28:30.120 And the NDP light,

00:28:31.520 of course,

00:28:31.800 being the BC Liberal Party.

00:28:33.680 There was no vision

00:28:34.860 articulated for the province.

00:28:36.940 Voters were not given

00:28:37.820 a choice,

00:28:38.640 a real choice.

00:28:39.880 And it's something

00:28:40.480 that I think

00:28:41.440 needs to change.

00:28:42.460 I know that

00:28:43.380 for people that aren't in BC,

00:28:44.940 they might be

00:28:45.340 a little bit confused.

00:28:46.300 Andrew,

00:28:46.680 you're supposed to be

00:28:47.200 on the right.

00:28:47.640 Why are you talking

00:28:48.120 to a guy who wants to run

00:28:49.100 for the leadership

00:28:50.000 of the BC Liberals?

00:28:51.040 You actually acknowledge that.

00:28:52.980 You had posted

00:28:53.440 something on Facebook

00:28:54.300 when there was

00:28:55.180 a movement afoot

00:28:56.020 to try to draft you

00:28:56.920 into politics

00:28:57.540 in which you said

00:28:58.220 that you think

00:28:59.020 the name of the party

00:28:59.880 is actually holding it back

00:29:01.600 from what you'd want

00:29:02.380 to see it as.

00:29:03.520 Yeah,

00:29:03.720 the name of the party

00:29:04.320 needs to go.

00:29:04.920 It's a really weird history,

00:29:06.280 but there's basically

00:29:08.060 a two-party system

00:29:09.040 here in British Columbia

00:29:10.220 other than the Green Party.

00:29:11.740 You have the NDP

00:29:12.440 and then you basically

00:29:13.220 have the anti-NDP party.

00:29:15.320 That's a centre-right coalition.

00:29:17.200 Now,

00:29:17.380 why they called it

00:29:18.080 the BC Liberals

00:29:18.900 is a long story,

00:29:20.260 but what is true

00:29:21.340 is that there's no reason

00:29:22.340 for the BC Liberal name

00:29:23.760 to exist now.

00:29:24.880 For example,

00:29:25.620 if we wanted to enter

00:29:26.440 a doubles tennis tournament

00:29:27.960 and we're like,

00:29:29.200 well,

00:29:29.280 let's come up

00:29:29.740 with a name for our team,

00:29:30.980 we wouldn't say,

00:29:31.820 okay,

00:29:32.040 well,

00:29:32.180 let's call it Team Andrew.

00:29:33.340 Like,

00:29:33.460 I wouldn't be a very,

00:29:34.420 wouldn't make a lot of sense

00:29:35.500 or Team Aaron.

00:29:36.700 So,

00:29:36.960 I think that

00:29:37.640 it needs a new name,

00:29:39.300 one that can be inclusive

00:29:40.080 of everybody

00:29:40.700 that's in the coalition.

00:29:42.040 The majority of members

00:29:43.380 and voters of the party

00:29:44.660 are federal conservatives.

00:29:45.900 So,

00:29:46.800 that's kind of the,

00:29:48.700 one of the tasks

00:29:49.440 I look forward

00:29:50.100 to potentially taking on.

00:29:52.420 That's actually

00:29:52.900 an important point

00:29:53.680 you raised though,

00:29:54.500 because I've never been

00:29:55.960 completely confident

00:29:57.180 that it is the case,

00:29:58.100 but you think that

00:29:58.880 the federal conservative DNA

00:30:01.260 is really the majority

00:30:02.820 of the BC Liberal DNA.

00:30:05.920 Well,

00:30:06.660 I would say

00:30:07.640 the majority of voters

00:30:09.140 for the BC,

00:30:09.900 of the BC Liberal Party

00:30:10.940 are federal conservatives.

00:30:12.280 They've done kind of

00:30:12.880 those studies

00:30:13.960 and I would say

00:30:15.000 the membership as well.

00:30:16.800 Now,

00:30:17.000 one of the problems

00:30:17.640 is the party apparatus

00:30:18.860 and the insiders

00:30:19.820 behind the party.

00:30:22.000 I don't know

00:30:22.560 if it matters

00:30:23.040 if they're technically

00:30:24.120 federal conservatives

00:30:24.980 or federal liberals.

00:30:25.780 I don't even know

00:30:26.260 if they know

00:30:26.680 any more themselves,

00:30:27.760 but one thing

00:30:28.540 is that

00:30:29.000 they're consumed

00:30:29.820 with power

00:30:31.380 and kind of,

00:30:33.280 you know,

00:30:33.500 having their team win

00:30:34.660 as opposed to

00:30:35.700 actually coming up

00:30:36.800 with and implementing

00:30:38.040 public policy

00:30:39.260 that works

00:30:40.040 for British Columbians

00:30:40.940 and works for taxpayers.

00:30:42.680 That's,

00:30:43.360 I think,

00:30:43.500 very key here

00:30:44.420 because we saw

00:30:45.480 in Alberta

00:30:46.000 this happen

00:30:46.680 where you had

00:30:47.320 a party

00:30:48.180 in the PC Party

00:30:49.240 of Alberta

00:30:49.720 that went unchallenged

00:30:50.840 for years and years

00:30:51.740 and by the end

00:30:52.460 of its run

00:30:53.100 there was very little

00:30:54.560 that was recognizably

00:30:55.640 conservative about it

00:30:56.600 because it became

00:30:57.240 a party about power

00:30:58.440 and the BC Liberals

00:30:59.900 have had that mantle

00:31:00.820 for quite a while

00:31:01.700 up until just

00:31:02.480 a couple of years ago.

00:31:03.820 So there is,

00:31:04.360 I think,

00:31:04.520 an opportunity

00:31:05.080 that that presents

00:31:05.920 for a reset.

00:31:07.500 Yeah,

00:31:07.680 that's right.

00:31:08.220 I think,

00:31:09.060 you know,

00:31:09.560 just like you mentioned

00:31:10.540 with Alberta,

00:31:11.340 this seems to happen,

00:31:12.220 you know,

00:31:12.940 every couple of decades

00:31:13.880 where parties get tired,

00:31:16.100 the establishment gets,

00:31:18.420 I don't want to,

00:31:19.420 corrupt might be a little bit

00:31:20.400 too strong of a word,

00:31:21.500 but there's a certain malaise

00:31:23.060 that hangs over it

00:31:24.720 when it comes to public policy

00:31:25.820 and new ideas

00:31:26.520 and that needs to change.

00:31:27.940 It needs to be reinvigorated,

00:31:29.560 it needs to be rebranded,

00:31:31.460 and it needs to be re-energized.

00:31:32.820 So that's something

00:31:33.440 that myself

00:31:34.440 or at the very least

00:31:36.000 an outsider

00:31:36.800 should be coming

00:31:38.160 into the party

00:31:38.760 to provide.

00:31:39.820 When we hear about

00:31:42.000 that term outsider,

00:31:43.500 I think it's become

00:31:44.360 a bit romanticized

00:31:45.700 in a way,

00:31:46.140 this notion

00:31:46.680 of just someone swooping in

00:31:48.060 who doesn't have experience

00:31:49.540 in elected office,

00:31:50.920 and I don't want to downplay

00:31:52.140 what you have done

00:31:52.820 because you've certainly

00:31:53.500 covered politics

00:31:54.300 and you've worked

00:31:55.520 in the political system

00:31:56.760 more broadly,

00:31:57.380 but you're not an MLA,

00:31:58.740 you're not a member

00:31:59.740 of parliament,

00:32:00.420 you are coming at this

00:32:01.500 without having

00:32:02.280 that conventional track

00:32:03.580 towards seeking

00:32:05.000 the leadership

00:32:05.520 and ultimately

00:32:06.340 the premiership.

00:32:07.560 Why should people

00:32:09.000 overlook that?

00:32:09.740 Why should people

00:32:10.340 overlook what they

00:32:11.400 would view as a lack

00:32:12.220 of experience

00:32:12.740 and say,

00:32:13.640 yeah,

00:32:13.820 this guy could run

00:32:14.420 the province?

00:32:15.660 Well,

00:32:16.080 I think it's about

00:32:17.620 experience is important,

00:32:19.140 but even more importantly

00:32:20.660 is having the right

00:32:21.540 kind of experience.

00:32:22.600 So you look at

00:32:23.160 a lot of the people

00:32:24.220 in the BC Liberal Party

00:32:25.380 right now

00:32:25.880 are people that are

00:32:26.660 rumored to also be running.

00:32:28.300 A lot of these people

00:32:29.240 were involved in bringing

00:32:30.200 in the first carbon tax

00:32:31.720 in North America.

00:32:32.740 I don't think that's

00:32:33.500 the kind of experience

00:32:34.520 that we need.

00:32:35.480 A lot of them

00:32:36.000 were involved with

00:32:36.860 the money laundering

00:32:38.360 and the housing bubble

00:32:39.300 that had affordability

00:32:40.640 go completely out the window

00:32:41.820 for British Columbians.

00:32:43.060 There's the ICBC

00:32:43.960 insurance monopoly

00:32:44.820 that was running

00:32:45.340 to the ground.

00:32:46.220 So it's important

00:32:46.760 to have experience.

00:32:47.980 Obviously,

00:32:48.380 I've been talking about

00:32:50.200 and communicating issues

00:32:51.200 that are important

00:32:51.920 for British Columbians

00:32:52.800 and Canadians

00:32:53.480 since I left university

00:32:55.420 going to the

00:32:55.900 Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

00:32:57.840 But I think

00:32:58.860 even more importantly

00:32:59.900 is having the right

00:33:00.500 kind of experience

00:33:01.460 and not having

00:33:03.120 that baggage

00:33:03.860 because I guess

00:33:04.840 that's the other

00:33:05.600 side of that coin.

00:33:07.140 Yeah, it is

00:33:07.800 and I think

00:33:08.760 you're bang on there

00:33:09.780 and I would also say

00:33:10.580 just for people

00:33:11.460 outside BC

00:33:12.420 there tends to be

00:33:13.300 this caricature

00:33:14.460 of British Columbia

00:33:15.380 where I think

00:33:16.120 we define it

00:33:16.940 those of us

00:33:17.760 who aren't from BC

00:33:18.480 as what downtown

00:33:19.720 Vancouverites think

00:33:20.800 and you've heard

00:33:21.760 this all before

00:33:22.520 the left coast

00:33:23.260 and the image

00:33:24.280 of the BC hippie

00:33:25.080 but in BC

00:33:25.980 there is

00:33:26.560 first off

00:33:27.260 a lot more

00:33:27.680 of a diverse province

00:33:28.700 than I think

00:33:29.240 a lot of people

00:33:29.780 outside realize

00:33:30.760 but a lot of people

00:33:32.160 that are similarly frustrated

00:33:33.760 at all those things

00:33:34.500 you just mentioned

00:33:35.140 the carbon tax

00:33:35.900 the housing situations

00:33:36.980 even if they don't identify

00:33:38.480 as conservative politically

00:33:40.000 would probably align

00:33:41.740 with someone

00:33:42.200 that's bringing

00:33:42.680 a small C

00:33:43.600 conservative vision

00:33:44.440 to the province's politics.

00:33:46.140 Yeah, it's not about

00:33:47.080 conservative or liberal.

00:33:48.680 I get asked this question

00:33:49.500 a lot.

00:33:49.880 It's about common sense.

00:33:51.400 It's about public policy

00:33:52.440 that works for people.

00:33:54.160 It's about

00:33:54.800 you know

00:33:55.740 realism in public policy.

00:33:58.420 So

00:33:58.620 and you're exactly right

00:34:00.120 about the Vancouver

00:34:00.940 disconnect from

00:34:01.980 downtown Vancouver

00:34:02.740 either with the suburbs

00:34:04.400 around Vancouver

00:34:05.140 whether that's Surrey

00:34:05.960 whether that's Langley

00:34:06.760 the interior

00:34:07.540 Kelowna, Kamloops

00:34:08.860 the north

00:34:09.320 and Prince George

00:34:09.980 where most of the mineral

00:34:11.720 and oil

00:34:12.500 and natural gas wealth

00:34:13.460 comes from

00:34:14.020 or on Vancouver Island

00:34:15.300 where people feel

00:34:17.040 completely ignored.

00:34:18.420 So I do think

00:34:19.480 that what you say

00:34:20.960 is exactly correct

00:34:21.780 and there's that disconnect

00:34:22.820 in downtown Vancouver

00:34:24.880 with the rest of the province

00:34:26.280 which I'm sure

00:34:26.920 is similar to Toronto

00:34:28.760 and much of that province

00:34:30.260 in Montreal

00:34:31.040 and much of Quebec

00:34:32.200 etc.

00:34:33.040 Yes and I don't know

00:34:34.140 if every province

00:34:35.000 has that.

00:34:35.720 Certainly in Ontario

00:34:36.580 you see that dynamic

00:34:37.980 where people feel

00:34:39.540 that the decisions

00:34:40.620 are made by

00:34:41.540 a few square kilometers

00:34:42.560 in the Toronto area

00:34:43.580 and that's where

00:34:44.620 the population is

00:34:45.540 and I'm assuming

00:34:46.260 BC is very much

00:34:47.460 like that as well.

00:34:48.340 So how do you break

00:34:49.380 through that

00:34:49.880 with a vision that

00:34:51.060 and I'm looking beyond

00:34:52.140 the leadership right now

00:34:53.040 assume you were the leader

00:34:53.940 of the Liberals

00:34:54.560 you're running province wide

00:34:56.600 how do you break beyond

00:34:57.640 that regional imbalance

00:34:59.160 and put a vision forward

00:35:00.580 that is not going

00:35:01.600 to scare people away

00:35:02.660 but at the same time

00:35:04.040 is going to be solid

00:35:04.780 to these principles

00:35:05.500 that you've espoused

00:35:06.320 for years?

00:35:07.700 Well I think

00:35:08.280 a couple things

00:35:10.060 I think one thing

00:35:11.360 is in the cities

00:35:12.440 and we talk about Vancouver

00:35:13.420 people that are living

00:35:14.360 outside the downtown core

00:35:15.680 are equally frustrated

00:35:17.220 with the decisions

00:35:18.020 coming from those downtowns

00:35:20.580 people that are living

00:35:21.220 in the rural areas.

00:35:22.500 So in Vancouver

00:35:23.080 for example

00:35:23.600 you have these tent cities

00:35:24.800 that have been

00:35:25.560 completely out of control

00:35:26.660 you have city councils

00:35:27.680 in Victoria

00:35:28.780 that have tore down

00:35:29.620 statues of Sir John A. Macdonald

00:35:31.120 for example

00:35:31.780 that have instituted

00:35:34.500 insane policies

00:35:36.900 towards harm reduction

00:35:38.720 quote unquote

00:35:39.400 harm reduction

00:35:40.040 that have failed

00:35:40.920 spectacularly

00:35:41.880 they pretty much

00:35:42.560 have taxpayer funded

00:35:44.220 heroin injection sites

00:35:45.680 so these kind of policies

00:35:47.700 I think have failed

00:35:48.460 and people inside the cities

00:35:49.980 and outside

00:35:50.680 are equally frustrated

00:35:51.940 so that's I think

00:35:53.380 how you connect with them

00:35:54.300 and you try to provide

00:35:55.940 a pan-British Columbian vision

00:35:57.720 that everybody

00:35:58.980 can get behind

00:35:59.740 What is your vision

00:36:01.320 for the party?

00:36:04.300 Well first of all

00:36:05.740 is to change the name

00:36:06.720 I think that has to happen

00:36:08.240 because you need

00:36:09.240 a new name

00:36:10.220 you need a new leader

00:36:11.680 but you need a new name

00:36:12.440 to really turn

00:36:13.160 turn the page

00:36:14.560 on this

00:36:15.100 you know

00:36:15.720 the history of the party

00:36:16.880 and to tell conservatives

00:36:18.340 who

00:36:18.940 some of whom

00:36:19.840 stayed home last election

00:36:21.060 and broke off

00:36:22.140 and voted for the

00:36:22.660 B.C. Conservative Party

00:36:23.720 that they are welcome

00:36:24.760 back into the tent

00:36:25.760 so that's number one

00:36:26.980 number two

00:36:27.820 you have to get

00:36:28.440 cost of living under control

00:36:29.660 you have to realize

00:36:30.500 that's you know

00:36:31.300 a number one priority

00:36:32.200 for many British Columbians

00:36:33.380 and their families

00:36:33.960 that don't necessarily

00:36:35.040 have all the time

00:36:36.060 to chat about

00:36:36.960 all the nuances

00:36:37.620 of politics

00:36:38.540 but you know

00:36:39.040 they're trying to

00:36:39.500 feed their families

00:36:40.200 and afford their

00:36:41.280 mortgage payments

00:36:41.920 and that means

00:36:43.120 the housing bubble

00:36:44.760 and the housing crisis

00:36:45.780 that means repealing

00:36:46.820 the carbon tax

00:36:47.680 that means reining in

00:36:49.020 the ICBC auto insurance

00:36:50.800 monopoly

00:36:51.320 etc etc

00:36:52.860 I think you've got to

00:36:53.600 stand up to city councils

00:36:54.640 that have gone

00:36:55.620 completely out of control

00:36:56.980 I think you need to get

00:36:58.380 the pipelines built

00:36:59.380 to power this economy

00:37:00.400 whether it's TMX

00:37:01.360 or Coastal GasLink

00:37:02.300 or putting

00:37:02.780 Northern Gateway

00:37:03.980 back on the table

00:37:04.960 I think you need to

00:37:06.140 support forestry

00:37:07.220 resources

00:37:08.060 you have to protect

00:37:09.340 our constitutional rights

00:37:10.380 and you have to

00:37:10.900 rein in

00:37:11.580 as well

00:37:13.340 some of these

00:37:14.200 universities

00:37:14.920 like the University

00:37:16.080 of British Columbia

00:37:16.640 that does not respect

00:37:17.720 free speech

00:37:18.440 and freedom of assembly

00:37:19.580 in this province

00:37:20.320 I think as a taxpayer

00:37:21.360 funded institution

00:37:22.220 that's completely

00:37:23.320 unacceptable

00:37:23.960 the resource issue

00:37:25.880 is huge

00:37:26.800 because whenever we have

00:37:27.840 these discussions

00:37:28.440 in Canada

00:37:30.040 even when

00:37:31.260 the liberals

00:37:31.860 are on board

00:37:32.520 the federal liberals

00:37:33.380 in Canada

00:37:34.300 are on board

00:37:34.980 BC is the sticking point

00:37:36.800 and I refuse to believe

00:37:38.660 that the average

00:37:39.540 British Columbian

00:37:40.500 is against the jobs

00:37:42.380 the reduction

00:37:43.760 in dependence

00:37:44.320 on foreign oil

00:37:45.120 that are all

00:37:46.040 inherently

00:37:46.580 byproducts

00:37:47.940 of the attacks

00:37:49.220 on Canada's

00:37:50.120 oil sector

00:37:50.700 why has there

00:37:52.140 not been a voice

00:37:52.940 in BC politics

00:37:53.820 that has been able

00:37:54.640 to be pro-energy

00:37:56.160 really in a

00:37:57.360 bold way

00:37:58.720 well you're 100%

00:38:00.780 right in that

00:38:01.580 if you look

00:38:01.980 at every poll

00:38:02.740 the majority

00:38:03.720 of British Columbians

00:38:04.460 support the

00:38:05.660 Trans Mountain

00:38:06.140 pipeline expansion

00:38:07.380 a huge majority

00:38:08.960 of British Columbians

00:38:09.940 support the

00:38:10.600 Coastal Gas Link

00:38:11.460 natural gas pipeline

00:38:12.560 by the way

00:38:13.340 all 20 elected

00:38:14.240 First Nation bands

00:38:15.100 along the pipeline route

00:38:16.160 also support

00:38:16.940 that project

00:38:17.680 I think what

00:38:19.500 you're missing

00:38:20.040 is you're missing

00:38:21.140 a politician

00:38:22.020 with backbone

00:38:23.180 who isn't afraid

00:38:24.200 to champion

00:38:24.860 Canadian oil

00:38:25.720 and natural gas

00:38:26.700 and say

00:38:27.020 you know what

00:38:27.520 this actually makes

00:38:28.440 the world a better place

00:38:29.440 as long as we need

00:38:30.760 oil in the world

00:38:31.800 as much of that oil

00:38:32.720 as possible

00:38:33.180 should be coming

00:38:33.620 from Canada

00:38:34.200 when it comes

00:38:35.000 to natural gas

00:38:35.800 that's good

00:38:37.160 for the environment

00:38:37.920 in every way

00:38:38.840 imaginable

00:38:39.380 because you're

00:38:39.700 sending it off

00:38:40.300 to China

00:38:40.680 to help displace

00:38:41.560 coal

00:38:42.440 so I think

00:38:44.000 you need a champion

00:38:44.820 who isn't afraid

00:38:46.000 to stand up

00:38:47.420 for his principles

00:38:48.060 isn't going to

00:38:48.780 back down

00:38:49.340 because they're

00:38:49.880 scared of

00:38:50.440 a bad headline

00:38:51.600 with the CBC

00:38:52.380 and really sticks

00:38:54.100 to his guns

00:38:54.660 so that's what

00:38:55.180 I think has been

00:38:55.780 missing

00:38:56.160 is a champion

00:38:58.180 for those issues

00:38:59.320 and as you mentioned

00:39:00.180 energy

00:39:00.580 what are the factors

00:39:02.460 weighing on your mind

00:39:03.620 as you decide

00:39:04.280 whether to go

00:39:04.820 through with this

00:39:05.520 well

00:39:07.700 right now

00:39:08.720 as I mentioned

00:39:09.540 we're doing

00:39:10.780 our due diligence

00:39:11.700 looking at the rules

00:39:12.920 looking at election

00:39:14.000 BC rules

00:39:14.840 and for me

00:39:16.300 a lot of it's timing

00:39:17.240 as you mentioned

00:39:18.320 I've got

00:39:19.040 just started

00:39:19.860 a new show

00:39:20.580 Politics Explained

00:39:21.800 have my online

00:39:23.120 branding

00:39:23.880 and have been

00:39:24.640 expanding really rapidly

00:39:26.000 and this isn't

00:39:27.860 my first choice

00:39:29.180 of time to get

00:39:30.940 involved into politics

00:39:31.820 I've chatted

00:39:33.280 openly

00:39:33.900 with individuals

00:39:35.320 like yourself

00:39:35.880 other people

00:39:36.400 in the movement

00:39:36.840 as you know

00:39:37.260 I'm a movement guy

00:39:38.440 about how one day

00:39:40.920 you know

00:39:41.200 down the road

00:39:41.820 I might get involved

00:39:42.540 into politics

00:39:43.200 but why

00:39:44.320 I might be getting

00:39:45.040 involved now

00:39:45.560 is just the genuine

00:39:46.340 frustration

00:39:47.000 with lack of choices

00:39:48.060 there's just

00:39:48.700 there's no choices

00:39:49.840 articulating these values

00:39:51.380 articulating an actual

00:39:53.200 vision for this province

00:39:54.300 and if somebody

00:39:55.380 stepped up to the plate

00:39:56.280 that I thought

00:39:56.840 you know

00:39:57.160 checked all those boxes

00:39:58.260 I'd be more than happy

00:39:59.280 to support them

00:40:00.040 from the sidelines

00:40:00.880 and continue doing my thing

00:40:02.460 so it's a long runway

00:40:03.800 the vote's not till

00:40:05.460 February 2022

00:40:06.800 and so one of the reasons

00:40:09.100 why is I'm waiting

00:40:09.780 to see if somebody

00:40:10.500 actually gets in

00:40:11.440 and starts articulating

00:40:12.440 you know

00:40:13.740 those things

00:40:14.420 in which I believe

00:40:15.320 and which I think

00:40:16.060 you know

00:40:16.460 a large number

00:40:17.200 of British Columbians

00:40:17.860 believe as well

00:40:18.560 when you look at

00:40:19.340 the landscape

00:40:19.820 of BC politics

00:40:20.820 is the issue

00:40:21.680 that the people

00:40:22.240 that you've just

00:40:22.840 described don't exist

00:40:23.940 or is it that

00:40:24.700 they exist

00:40:25.640 but are just not

00:40:26.540 wanting to seek

00:40:27.440 a leadership role

00:40:28.340 at this point

00:40:28.860 or don't think

00:40:29.540 it's viable

00:40:29.980 for them to do so

00:40:30.880 well

00:40:32.000 I think there's

00:40:32.900 a lot of apathy

00:40:33.600 in British Columbia

00:40:34.360 I think

00:40:35.580 the British Columbia

00:40:37.700 Liberal Party

00:40:38.520 has just

00:40:39.080 as I mentioned earlier

00:40:40.020 there's kind of a malaise

00:40:40.960 has been

00:40:41.360 has been set

00:40:42.100 on top of them

00:40:43.240 there's been no

00:40:44.380 kind of new ideas

00:40:45.600 and then I think

00:40:46.760 also

00:40:47.280 you know

00:40:48.000 who would want

00:40:48.680 to get involved

00:40:49.200 in politics

00:40:49.920 now if you

00:40:50.580 yeah it goes back

00:40:51.840 to the first question

00:40:52.580 of why on earth

00:40:53.320 do you want this

00:40:53.960 if you had a successful

00:40:54.860 career in the private sector

00:40:56.000 why would you possibly

00:40:57.500 want to get involved

00:40:58.660 in politics

00:40:59.180 and take the

00:41:00.220 the torrent of abuse

00:41:02.680 that you're inevitably

00:41:03.480 going to receive

00:41:04.740 so I think that's

00:41:06.500 you know

00:41:07.460 I think that

00:41:08.100 deters a lot

00:41:08.820 of people

00:41:09.260 for whatever reason

00:41:10.520 my brain

00:41:11.980 has been

00:41:12.500 been wired

00:41:13.440 in such a way

00:41:14.120 where you know

00:41:15.120 that's something

00:41:15.760 that I can deal

00:41:16.820 with

00:41:17.140 or my skin

00:41:18.620 is thick enough

00:41:19.420 but for me

00:41:20.700 honestly

00:41:21.000 it's not really

00:41:21.740 it's not really

00:41:22.700 that I want

00:41:23.820 to do it

00:41:24.280 or it seems

00:41:24.680 like a great

00:41:25.140 opportunity

00:41:25.620 it's that I'm

00:41:26.460 tired of sitting

00:41:27.180 on the sidelines

00:41:28.140 I remember

00:41:29.280 sitting there

00:41:29.760 during the last

00:41:30.220 provincial election

00:41:30.900 watching the debate

00:41:31.920 and just being like

00:41:33.040 is this the best

00:41:34.060 we can do

00:41:34.640 I really think

00:41:35.540 you know

00:41:35.720 British Columbia

00:41:36.220 third biggest

00:41:37.380 province

00:41:37.840 in confederation

00:41:38.900 plays a very

00:41:40.460 important role

00:41:41.280 in these

00:41:41.920 you know

00:41:42.140 constitutional debates

00:41:43.040 regarding infrastructure

00:41:43.880 like pipelines

00:41:44.640 and I really think

00:41:45.900 it needs better leadership

00:41:47.060 and this is not

00:41:48.700 a publicity stunt

00:41:49.520 if you do this

00:41:50.180 you're a serious

00:41:50.900 candidate

00:41:51.380 100%

00:41:52.800 I'm only going

00:41:53.660 into this to win

00:41:54.440 if I go into it

00:41:56.400 and make the final call

00:41:57.300 we've already got

00:41:58.860 you know

00:41:59.340 a team together

00:42:00.140 that's discussing

00:42:01.280 the possibilities

00:42:02.280 and you know

00:42:04.100 like I said

00:42:04.500 we have to do

00:42:04.940 our due diligence

00:42:05.600 but there's no

00:42:06.880 publicity stunt

00:42:07.620 trust me

00:42:08.040 we did the

00:42:08.580 we did the

00:42:09.700 cost benefit analysis

00:42:11.220 and this would be

00:42:12.540 much too of

00:42:13.660 there's much too

00:42:14.540 too much incoming

00:42:16.020 that I would receive

00:42:17.280 specifically

00:42:17.840 as you've seen

00:42:18.480 with the

00:42:18.980 press progress report

00:42:19.960 where I would be

00:42:20.660 doing this for

00:42:21.300 mere publicity

00:42:22.460 I try not to

00:42:23.980 put too much faith

00:42:25.360 in anything

00:42:25.840 press progress writes

00:42:26.980 but in that story

00:42:27.780 they talk about

00:42:28.640 a few of the

00:42:29.980 so-called expert brigade

00:42:31.140 that you know

00:42:32.280 tends to think

00:42:32.980 that the rules

00:42:33.600 might be stacked

00:42:34.440 against you

00:42:34.960 and you might

00:42:35.320 not even be

00:42:35.920 allowed to run

00:42:36.940 is that a serious

00:42:37.760 risk or is that

00:42:38.560 just press progress

00:42:39.400 being press progress

00:42:40.760 well look

00:42:42.620 there's lots of

00:42:43.280 rumors flying around

00:42:44.200 there are people

00:42:45.100 within the party

00:42:45.880 that don't want

00:42:46.680 me to run

00:42:47.180 because you know

00:42:48.440 they found

00:42:49.080 their candidate

00:42:49.740 they want

00:42:50.420 and they don't

00:42:50.880 want to have

00:42:51.300 an actual exchange

00:42:52.240 of ideas

00:42:52.680 they don't want

00:42:53.300 to have an

00:42:53.780 actual debate

00:42:54.560 about policy

00:42:55.560 they don't want

00:42:56.140 the carbon tax

00:42:56.860 to come up

00:42:57.420 again

00:42:57.700 they think that's

00:42:58.520 you know

00:42:58.760 you know

00:42:59.300 a settled issue

00:43:00.200 to have someone

00:43:01.360 like you

00:43:01.960 on a debate stage

00:43:03.160 in a party leadership

00:43:04.080 forcing candidates

00:43:05.800 to defend

00:43:06.380 the indefensible

00:43:07.100 if they are

00:43:07.640 pro-carbon tax

00:43:08.460 or don't want

00:43:08.800 to have the discussion

00:43:09.460 is dangerous

00:43:10.240 for them

00:43:10.840 exactly

00:43:11.860 and I really

00:43:13.500 not only do I think

00:43:14.860 that that's not true

00:43:16.400 I actually think

00:43:17.020 that's harmful

00:43:17.680 to the party

00:43:18.260 I think the party

00:43:19.040 needs to have

00:43:20.080 a robust discussion

00:43:21.060 it needs to have

00:43:22.220 a robust debate

00:43:23.140 and look

00:43:23.660 I'm not looking

00:43:24.560 to go personal

00:43:25.380 after everybody

00:43:26.120 but when it comes

00:43:26.780 to policy

00:43:27.300 we should be able

00:43:27.920 to have frank

00:43:28.380 conversations

00:43:29.060 and I was just

00:43:29.960 meeting with someone

00:43:30.580 the other day

00:43:31.240 who said

00:43:31.880 no we need this

00:43:32.500 to be like

00:43:33.300 they referenced

00:43:34.840 an old NDP

00:43:35.580 leadership race

00:43:36.340 where it's like

00:43:36.720 a family affair

00:43:37.500 and everyone's

00:43:38.040 just kind of

00:43:38.400 patting each other

00:43:38.900 on the back

00:43:39.300 and that's not

00:43:40.140 what I think

00:43:40.620 you need to do

00:43:41.240 after you suffer

00:43:42.120 a humiliating

00:43:43.580 election defeat

00:43:44.440 I think you really

00:43:45.120 need to take a look

00:43:45.780 in the mirror

00:43:46.220 and hash it out

00:43:47.340 about a path

00:43:48.040 for this party

00:43:50.040 and that's what

00:43:51.180 I think is needed

00:43:51.740 and some people

00:43:52.680 don't like that fact

00:43:53.780 because they're

00:43:54.280 probably cozy

00:43:55.100 with their little

00:43:55.980 enclaves of power

00:43:57.380 that they've carved

00:43:58.080 out for themselves

00:43:58.800 in the existing party

00:43:59.840 and that's fine

00:44:00.960 I understand that

00:44:01.600 I represent change

00:44:02.640 and change is a threat

00:44:03.640 to some people

00:44:04.780 and the problem

00:44:05.500 if you are approaching

00:44:06.740 this from a grassroots

00:44:07.760 perspective

00:44:08.320 which you are

00:44:09.160 is that the people

00:44:10.260 that set out the rules

00:44:11.220 for these things

00:44:11.840 are not representative

00:44:12.880 always of the grassroots

00:44:13.820 they're a committee

00:44:14.520 of party faithful

00:44:15.460 and this is not

00:44:16.480 a swipe at this

00:44:18.180 particular committee

00:44:18.940 it's just in general

00:44:19.740 this is how these

00:44:20.760 things work

00:44:21.300 so I would be

00:44:22.640 very leery of anyone

00:44:24.120 who ever said

00:44:24.780 that it's not

00:44:25.280 the party members

00:44:26.060 who get to decide

00:44:26.960 whether you deserve

00:44:28.180 to be standing

00:44:28.860 in this race

00:44:29.600 I agree 100%

00:44:31.180 and look

00:44:31.700 I don't know

00:44:32.760 the members

00:44:33.300 on that committee

00:44:34.080 I try to follow

00:44:36.480 practice in life

00:44:39.080 where I assume

00:44:39.640 the best

00:44:40.120 until provided

00:44:41.120 with evidence

00:44:41.640 that

00:44:41.820 well you're not

00:44:42.340 going to fly

00:44:42.700 in politics

00:44:43.180 if that's your attitude

00:44:44.060 but carry on

00:44:45.080 until provided

00:44:46.460 with evidence

00:44:47.020 of the contrary

00:44:48.120 and right now

00:44:49.200 it's just rumors

00:44:49.760 and speculation

00:44:50.360 I know that

00:44:51.380 they're trying

00:44:51.900 to

00:44:52.320 I think

00:44:52.780 the other campaigns

00:44:53.640 are trying

00:44:54.100 to push

00:44:55.740 that narrative

00:44:56.260 forward

00:44:56.740 because it makes

00:44:57.540 me seem

00:44:57.980 like some kind

00:44:58.540 of extreme

00:44:58.980 candidate

00:44:59.400 or something

00:44:59.840 like that

00:45:00.400 which I don't

00:45:01.100 think is

00:45:01.580 obviously not

00:45:03.020 true at all

00:45:03.640 so yeah

00:45:05.140 I mean

00:45:05.480 and look

00:45:05.860 here's the other

00:45:06.260 thing

00:45:06.460 this is why

00:45:06.940 I really don't

00:45:07.540 think it's

00:45:07.940 going to happen

00:45:08.540 if you say

00:45:10.040 that I can't

00:45:10.960 be part of

00:45:11.380 this party

00:45:11.780 if you say

00:45:12.620 someone like me

00:45:13.700 cannot be part

00:45:14.940 of this leadership

00:45:15.420 race

00:45:15.840 you're saying

00:45:16.660 hundreds of

00:45:17.280 thousands of

00:45:17.720 British Columbians

00:45:18.460 who support me

00:45:19.620 or support the

00:45:20.660 policies that I

00:45:21.340 espouse have no

00:45:22.240 place in this

00:45:22.740 party and if

00:45:23.800 you're doing that

00:45:24.460 you're signing

00:45:24.920 your own death

00:45:25.400 warrant as far

00:45:26.460 as I'm concerned

00:45:27.100 so I don't

00:45:29.480 think that they

00:45:30.600 would be that

00:45:31.200 dumb to do

00:45:32.180 that but I

00:45:34.020 mean you never

00:45:34.720 know but as

00:45:35.320 far as I'm

00:45:36.020 concerned I

00:45:37.000 haven't heard

00:45:37.400 anything you

00:45:38.600 know directly

00:45:39.120 from them or

00:45:39.860 anything like

00:45:40.340 that so I'm

00:45:42.240 looking at the

00:45:42.620 glass half full

00:45:43.600 for now but

00:45:44.760 again there's

00:45:46.720 this party they

00:45:47.540 say it's a

00:45:48.000 coalition party

00:45:48.680 and they want

00:45:49.080 to have

00:45:49.500 rejuvenation

00:45:51.620 well let's

00:45:52.520 you know put

00:45:53.080 your money

00:45:53.400 where their

00:45:54.160 mouth is

00:45:54.600 hopefully

00:45:55.000 I guess that

00:45:55.640 would be the

00:45:56.000 last thing I

00:45:56.580 want to ask

00:45:57.180 you about then

00:45:57.700 Aaron because

00:45:58.180 it is a

00:45:58.740 coalition party

00:45:59.600 and in these

00:46:00.160 sorts of

00:46:01.340 arrangements there's

00:46:02.320 a risk that

00:46:03.360 one just

00:46:04.380 consumes the

00:46:05.200 other rather

00:46:06.040 than the two

00:46:06.580 coexisting

00:46:07.220 in your view

00:46:08.440 is the BC

00:46:09.100 Liberals future

00:46:10.300 going to be

00:46:10.980 about the

00:46:11.400 battle between

00:46:12.040 the right flank

00:46:12.820 and the left

00:46:13.260 flank or do you

00:46:13.780 think there is a

00:46:14.520 unified vision

00:46:15.920 that you or

00:46:16.660 in general

00:46:17.260 someone could put

00:46:18.040 forward

00:46:18.460 that keeps

00:46:19.100 both sides

00:46:19.680 happy

00:46:20.060 so right now

00:46:21.600 that unified

00:46:22.080 vision doesn't

00:46:23.200 exist so right

00:46:24.260 now the party's

00:46:25.540 foundation is built

00:46:27.140 on a concept of

00:46:28.180 just a coalition

00:46:28.980 between federal

00:46:30.080 liberals and federal

00:46:30.840 conservatives to keep

00:46:31.720 out the NDP I

00:46:33.000 think that is

00:46:34.180 that is a

00:46:35.880 tired there's not

00:46:37.080 a fall there's not

00:46:37.780 a philosophical

00:46:38.380 basis there's no

00:46:39.340 philosophical core

00:46:40.520 and I think that's

00:46:41.580 you know that's an

00:46:42.240 alliance that was

00:46:42.800 made in the late

00:46:43.360 or in the 1990s

00:46:44.660 that no longer has

00:46:45.720 any relevance

00:46:46.260 look let's be

00:46:46.840 honest

00:46:47.200 Justin Trudeau's

00:46:48.980 federal liberal

00:46:49.620 government is to

00:46:50.760 the left of the

00:46:51.780 provincial NDP on

00:46:52.980 a number of

00:46:53.420 issues so that

00:46:54.460 makes like deficit

00:46:55.740 financing for

00:46:56.460 example so that

00:46:57.660 makes this

00:46:58.300 alliance really

00:46:59.340 quite awkward

00:46:59.980 what I think you

00:47:01.360 need to do is on

00:47:02.580 the center right of

00:47:03.500 the political

00:47:03.840 spectrum create a

00:47:05.880 new party or

00:47:06.760 reform this existing

00:47:07.800 party with its own

00:47:09.080 independent vision

00:47:10.040 that yes is a home

00:47:11.560 for federal

00:47:11.960 conservatives that

00:47:13.080 yes is a home for

00:47:14.020 many federal

00:47:14.520 liberals but it

00:47:15.420 can also get you

00:47:16.160 know people that

00:47:16.720 might have not

00:47:17.140 traditionally voted

00:47:17.840 before maybe people

00:47:18.820 that had voted

00:47:19.600 NDP before or

00:47:21.120 voted green before

00:47:22.000 similar to the old

00:47:22.920 social credit party

00:47:23.920 which dominated BC

00:47:25.180 politics for decades

00:47:26.520 Aaron Gunn

00:47:27.740 independent journalist

00:47:28.700 potential contender

00:47:29.780 for the BC

00:47:30.540 liberal leadership

00:47:31.240 thanks very much

00:47:32.120 for sitting down

00:47:32.700 thank you for

00:47:33.360 having me Andrew

00:47:33.920 my thanks to Aaron

00:47:36.080 Gunn for coming on

00:47:37.180 the show today and

00:47:38.340 to all of you who

00:47:39.500 tuned into the

00:47:40.240 program we'll be back

00:47:41.140 next week with more

00:47:42.120 of Canada's most

00:47:43.060 irreverent talk

00:47:43.820 show thank you

00:47:44.720 god bless and

00:47:45.520 good day Canada

00:47:46.240 thanks for listening

00:47:47.280 to the Andrew

00:47:47.880 Lawton show

00:47:48.480 support the program

00:47:49.540 by donating to

00:47:50.340 true north at

00:47:51.040 www.tnc.news

Juno News - March 11, 2021

A Tale of Two Pandemics

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