00:03:32.440One of the things that we know, and I was actually sitting in the Court of Appeal for Ontario for every day of Ontario's challenge of the carbon tax.
00:03:40.960And one of the things that the lawyers and the judges said very candidly was that we are not here to legislate over climate science.
00:03:49.480We are not here to talk about the policy implications, whether this is reducing emissions.
00:03:54.320We're here to talk squarely about the question of does the federal government have the jurisdiction to do this when it is not spelled out in the Constitution that they can.
00:04:06.980And some of the arguments that were brought forward by interveners like the David Suzuki Foundation and other groups were that the government should be able to do whatever it wants because this is an emergency.
00:04:17.540So they were actually kind of advocating for a War Measures Act style of approach to climate change in that, well, it's an emergency.
00:04:25.540So the federal government can suspend the Constitution and do what it wants.
00:04:28.880And I'm glad the court didn't actually go that far.
00:04:31.900And to be fair, the government didn't make that argument.
00:04:34.540But by proxy, some of these other radical environmental groups were.
00:04:38.840But I do want to talk about this because the question of what are we going to do about it now shifts from the legal realm to the political realm.
00:04:47.880Canadians are not destined to have a carbon tax now if there is political will to get rid of it.
00:04:53.620Aaron O'Toole, for his part, the leader of the Conservatives, has said that he will scrap the Trudeau carbon tax.
00:04:59.180Last week, we spoke about Aaron O'Toole's speech at the Conservative Convention in which he said climate change is real, the debate is over, and then also took aim at deniers and said that we are not going to allow the Conservative Party to be branded as the party of deniers.
00:05:14.060The problem is that Justin Trudeau has kind of positioned this as being the best, if not the only remedy to climate change.
00:05:22.400So if Aaron O'Toole comes out during the election and says, no more carbon tax, Trudeau, no matter what, is going to say, see, they don't have a plan.
00:05:30.940See, they don't believe in climate change.
00:05:32.640And we go back to square one with the Conservatives becoming, in the Liberals' eyes, the party of deniers, but without the benefit of actually having been standing firm and not going to the infighting,
00:05:43.680which Aaron O'Toole did by unleashing on the Conservative base at the convention last week.
00:05:48.540But the reason I think this is important is because Justin Trudeau did win an election when he was pushing for this carbon tax.
00:05:56.640He won an election when he was defending the carbon tax.
00:06:00.380And politically, a lot of people could say Canadians have made their peace with it.
00:06:08.540And is that the case because they believe in it or because no one's put forward another option?
00:06:13.460I want to talk about some of these implications with Aaron Woodrick, who is the Federal Director for the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and joins me on the line now.
00:06:53.680You know, we've always suggested that's a distinction without a difference.
00:06:57.360You can call these things fees or levies or taxes or regulatory charges.
00:07:00.960The point is it's money that you don't have to spend on what you want.
00:07:03.800And that was relevant for our arguments because, of course, people will be familiar with the principle of no taxation without representation.
00:07:12.740And the fact that the federal carbon tax is imposed by cabinet rather than parliament made that determination of whether or not this was a tax pretty important.
00:07:29.420And one of the dissents in the decision actually addressed that, I think, very well, which was that all of a sudden we don't even have a parliamentary oversight to this because this legislation, which was passed in parliament, has really been supplemented by things that are just put at the direct cabinet level.
00:07:46.540And I think that's particularly important given in the last year we've already seen increases in the carbon tax.
00:07:51.660Yeah, you know, it's remarkable to see three dissents in a decision.
00:07:55.800Of course, there were six in the majority, but three separate dissents was unusual.
00:07:59.100And Justice Cote really focused on the process argument.
00:08:02.480She was essentially I she agreed that the federal government could legislate and sort of govern and impose things related to greenhouse gas emissions.
00:08:11.300But she had a problem with exactly the thing that we had raised, which was it wasn't parliament deciding this.
00:08:18.000I know that one of the arguments put forward, certainly in the Ontario case, it may have been put forward in the other ones.
00:08:25.220I don't know, was that if the government is able to claim this as an issue of national concern, which did in which the court has found it would, in some respects, open the floodgates to other things that contribute to these sort of emissions.
00:08:38.140And I distinctly remember one of the examples, and it may have actually been one of the Ontario judges that put this forward, was something like if the government wanted to ban wood stoves, would not that now be permissible?
00:08:49.200And I know CBC has a story saying that legal experts are saying this won't open the floodgates, but you're a lawyer as well.
00:08:56.860Do you think that this has now set a standard that would make it very easy for the government to go after anything else that is connected to emissions?
00:09:04.380Well, you don't even have to go down to a regular lawyer like me, Andrew, you can go with two of the dissenting justices at the Supreme Court, you know, Justice Russell Brown and Justice Rowe, both made essentially this argument, which is that it's a really slippery slope and that the door has been thrown wide open.
00:09:19.080I think that's actually, interestingly, it might actually someday overshadow this case in terms of importance.
00:09:26.520Right now, it's about the carbon tax, it's a polarizing issue, but the balance of power between the federal government and the provincial government, I mean, Canada is a fine balance.
00:09:36.660It only works if you have that sort of that calibration right.
00:09:40.540And those justices have warned that, you know, this could open the door to tipping the scales in Ottawa's favour.
00:09:45.800So let me ask you, Aaron, when we're talking about the political implications of this, it's important to note the court didn't say this is working, it didn't say this is good policy, it didn't say that everyone should embrace the carbon tax, it just ruled on the constitutionality.
00:10:00.780But on the political argument, Canadians have elected and re-elected Justin Trudeau knowing that this was something he wanted to do.
00:10:07.380Are you finding that there is in general in Canada an appetite for this?
00:10:11.360Well, let's remember when Justin Trudeau was asked before the last election and his minister were asked if they would increase the carbon tax, they said they wouldn't, they said they had no plans to.
00:10:20.800And then after the election, they decided to do it.
00:10:23.500So, you know, some people will like that and some people won't, but it's certainly not brave or honest to do things that way.
00:10:29.500So I think it's really misleading to claim that people love it.
00:10:32.820Look, Andrew, I think most people, if you ask them, they say, should we do something about climate change?
00:10:37.100Almost everyone says yes. Why not? It sounds like a great thing.
00:10:40.700I think when you start to present people with the facts about how much it will cost them and their families personally, you start to see some pretty steep drop off in terms of support.
00:10:49.880And that's where I think people have it wrong about carbon taxes.
00:10:53.420I think a lot of people think they're great in theory.
00:10:55.640I think when they see how much it's going to cost them, just to give one example, at the pump, when they fill up their car with gas,
00:11:01.000a lot of them are going to start having second thoughts about their willingness to go ahead with it.
00:11:05.580Well, and one of the arguments as well that I would put forward is that we were not seeing the scenario that the Liberal government pretended it was going after,
00:11:15.200which was provinces that were just doing nothing.
00:11:17.420All provinces had some plan that they were working on in this effect.
00:11:21.440And also provinces were seeing declines in emissions.
00:11:24.300So the idea that this was only something that the federal government could do, and if left to their own devices, provinces wouldn't, just is fundamentally not true.
00:11:32.660Well, yes. And, you know, advocates for carbon tax twist themselves into pretzels.
00:11:36.520They rely on, oh, it's a Nobel Prize winning idea.
00:11:38.820Well, the economists that won the Nobel Prize for it didn't propose a carbon tax that was layered on top of this web of other regulations and rules.
00:11:46.500That's not how it was supposed to work.
00:11:48.060You also look at provinces like New Brunswick and PEI, which essentially introduced offsetting gas tax cuts and do not meet the federal standard.
00:11:56.460And yet the Truro government allowed them to implement those policies instead of the federal regime.
00:12:02.060So there's contradictions and inconsistencies all over the place.
00:12:05.460And it's going to be really interesting to see going forward how the four provinces that fought this tax are going to, you know, handle it going forward.
00:12:14.520Yeah. And I imagine, I know your counterpart, Franco Terrazzano, has been on the show talking about Western alienation and some of the economic situations that are facing Albertans.
00:12:25.520But I can't imagine that the West will take too kindly to not just the Supreme Court telling them, you know, that what their court determined has now been overturned.
00:12:34.220But also that, again, a made in Alberta version of this or a province that has a made in wherever version of this is not good enough unless the federal government deems it to be so.
00:12:44.520And the part that I find more concerning is that someone like Doug Ford in Ontario, say, or Jason Kenney in Alberta or any other government could meet the standards that the federal government has set out.
00:12:56.000And then a year later, those standards could change, correct?
00:12:58.620Well, yes, I mean, it's it's a it's a rising standard and look, the whole reason that the feds and that and that's the whole reason they've imposed a backstop.
00:13:08.280So they say rather than a, you know, one size fits all for the country is they recognize that different provinces are affected in different ways by these by by the requirements.
00:13:17.820And so they want to give them some flexibility.
00:13:19.860And yet, you know, it brings to mind the old saying Henry Ford said you can have any color Ford car you want as long as it's black.
00:13:26.420And that seems to be Justin Trudeau's government's approach to the carbon tax.
00:13:30.240You can have any regime you want as long as it's the one that that we say is OK.
00:13:33.840Yeah, I mean, who am I to tell the Supreme Court majority they got it wrong?
00:13:37.560But I did when I was reading through the majority decision, find that to be a little bit odd.
00:13:41.800They were it seemed like overstating the autonomy that provinces have as the defense against the federal government regulating this.
00:13:49.180But again, if the federal government is still forcing them to do that, autonomy within those narrow parameters isn't really that much autonomy.
00:13:57.040Yeah, you know, the test is supposed to be in the Supreme Court laid out this test.
00:14:00.880And what confused me with the majority is they I don't know how they managed to twist things around to see the Greenhouse Gas Emission Act meet it.
00:14:08.680What it's supposed to say is where there's an area of national concern, if provinces together can do not have the ability or the and the willingness to do it, then the feds can step in.
00:14:20.020In this case, it's obvious that the provinces could do it working together.
00:14:23.920And yet the court somehow found that regardless, well, just because they could and they're not doing it the way Ottawa wants to, that gives Ottawa a hammer to bring down on them and force them to do it the way that Ottawa wants.
00:14:35.140So now that this is in the political realm, what do you think Canadians need to know about this?
00:14:39.380Because you're right earlier when you pointed out that a lot of people would say, yes, I want to do something about this issue.
00:14:59.900And it happened for exactly the reason we weren't about, which is the feds give it back for now.
00:15:04.300But at some point, especially now with all the debt we're racking up during the pandemic, there's going to be a big pot of money sitting there.
00:15:10.580And they're going to start asking themselves, do we really want to give that away when we literally already have it in our hands?
00:15:15.220That's exactly what happened in British Columbia with theirs.
00:15:17.680The other is emissions aren't going down in B.C.
00:15:32.720Yes, they're going up more slowly, but that's not going to get us to the net zero that everyone keeps talking about.
00:15:38.620So in that way, it moves further and further to that argument you raised at the beginning that this is a tax because government's collecting revenue when it goes up.
00:15:46.920Yes, look, and I don't deny there's a rebate.
00:15:49.140People say, oh, why don't you mention the rebate?
00:15:50.760Yeah, it's better that they give some of the money back.
00:26:16.120I'm talking about the Canadians that are supposed to be getting results.
00:26:20.100We had a complete behind-closed-doors trial of the two Michaels.
00:26:25.980Which, in many cases, may have been China flexing its muscle because the U.S. was about to start meeting in Alaska with officials from Beijing.
00:26:34.360It may be for any number of reasons, or it may be because China is not a good-faith actor.
00:26:39.800And we shouldn't expect them to become this overnight.
00:26:44.900And to be clear, Mark Garneau did say, well, you know, I've dealt with bullies before, and you've got to stand up, and you've got to show them.
00:26:51.340But Mark Garneau was also the guy who said this.
00:26:54.240Mr. Speaker, I abstain on behalf of the government of Canada.
00:27:01.120Yes, when it actually came to condemning China's abuse and genocide against Uyghur Muslims, he was the guy that had to stand there when all of his officials, his colleagues in cabinet, were gone and say, I abstain.
00:27:12.940So how do you square that with, oh, yes, we're standing up to bullies.
00:27:17.020Yeah, we're going to stand up to them.
00:27:18.820And he was talking about Canada putting some sanctions on Chinese officials.
00:27:22.420But the sanctions game is a lot more theatrical than anything else, which is why I don't think any Canadian politician who's sanctioned by China should really care all that much.
00:27:30.920And that's been thus far the extent of Canada's reaction to this.
00:27:35.300A stern warning, a bit of a finger wagging, and then some sanctions, but ultimately nothing.
00:27:43.840I think I titled a previous show that because that seems to be the Canadian government's response when faced with China's brutality.
00:27:51.240We are, what, a year and three months into the circumstances that were unleashed when China allowed for COVID-19 to first become a thing.
00:28:02.400And in that time, we've seen more and more examples of China's unwillingness to engage with the world in a way that is genuine.
00:28:10.660It only engages in the world when it thinks it can benefit from it.
00:28:13.480Remember, I spoke about this a couple of months back when Chairman Xi was speaking at the Davos Forum and extolling the virtues of the liberal international order and working within the rule of law and international organizations like the UN.
00:28:27.100And China, of course, was thumping its chest and joining the Paris Agreement and all of this stuff.
00:28:31.500But China's only interested in doing this when it benefits its reputation.
00:28:35.600And unfortunately, there seem to be far too many Canadians that are prepared to go along with China's very positive and very glowing self-branding without actually taking aim at the real circumstances that China is responsible for.
00:28:50.460If you need evidence that China is not wanting to be the nice guy in the international scene, just talk to the families of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor.
00:28:59.640And by the way, as much as Mark Garneau wants to talk about putting sanctions forward and taking the tough line, it's important to note that this is only happening while the EU and the US and the UK are doing it.
00:29:11.740Canada did not do anything on its own.
00:29:14.320Canada just went along with the PAC when the PAC was doing it.
00:29:18.140And this is incredibly important because Canada is directly affected by this more than the EU is, more than the UK is.
00:29:24.840And these countries, not that the EU is a country, but you know what I mean,
00:29:28.020these jurisdictions are doing more and doing it better than Canada is.
00:29:33.320Why has Canada, I mean, the US is doing more to get the two Michaels out than Canada is.
00:29:38.600Because the US actually understands, even under the Biden administration, that China is not a friend.
00:29:44.440That doesn't mean you want them as a sworn enemy.
00:29:46.400It doesn't mean you want to be battling it out in the South China Sea or in any other jurisdiction in the world.
00:29:50.960No, no one wants a world war here, but you can't accept that they are on your side.
00:29:57.240And the plain ice approach from Canada simply hasn't worked.
00:30:01.040And at a certain point, you have to accept that it's not working.
00:30:03.880And yeah, if you're getting on the sanctioned list, you're doing something right.
00:30:07.020My question to Justin Trudeau is why are you not on the sanctions list?