Juno News - Activists say Trudeau should be spending more on climate change

00:00:00.000 Transcription by CastingWords

00:00:30.000 Thank you.

00:01:00.000 welcome to canada's most irreverent talk show this is the andrew lawton show brought to you by true

00:01:19.640 north hello and welcome to you all this is another edition of canada's most irreverent

00:01:29.740 talk show here on true north it is tuesday april 9th 2024 we are doing things a little

00:01:36.480 bit differently we're doing the uh old like a weird corner of a hotel room uh set that we have

00:01:42.360 had to do on a few occasions uh the rest of the week we will be in a an on location studio which

00:01:48.600 is not based on like propping a laptop up on an ironing board, which sounds crazy, but I've often

00:01:54.520 said in hotel rooms, ironing boards are the unsung hero of Zoom calls because it's like the only

00:01:59.380 adjustable height surface you can find in here. So if you just find that the thing collapses in

00:02:04.820 the middle of the show, that's probably why, but it seems to be working. I am in Ottawa right now

00:02:09.540 where we are just on the eve of the Canada Strong and Free Network annual conference from which

00:02:14.700 True North will be broadcasting live the rest of the week.

00:02:18.060 Things get started there tomorrow afternoon and carry on until the weekend.

00:02:22.840 We've got some great interviews planned, including with the former Prime Minister of Australia, Tony Abbott.

00:02:28.200 And who else do we have?

00:02:29.140 Some of our old friends, the cast of characters you see on the show, like Chris Sims and Aaron Woodrick, will be dropping by in person.

00:02:36.180 We'll also hopefully find some current, former, and perhaps future politicians.

00:02:40.120 and then we'll just basically grab anyone who looks interesting who happens to be walking by

00:02:44.900 the studio. I say studio, by our booth. If they seem interesting, we'll grab them on. So if you

00:02:50.800 are uninteresting and you walk back and forth like seven or eight times and we don't pull you in,

00:02:54.560 I'm sorry, you just didn't make the cut. But do keep an eye out for that coverage from True North

00:02:59.420 over the next few days. One thing I will also bring up here is that I know many of you were

00:03:04.540 observing the great eclipse yesterday. Like I said, I'm in Ottawa, so we weren't in the

00:03:08.900 path of totality, but I was still like panicking not to look up just accidentally. I felt, so I

00:03:14.780 was really tired yesterday. I didn't get a lot of sleep two nights ago. By the end of the day

00:03:18.140 yesterday, I was, my eyes were hurting because they had just been open for far too long. And I

00:03:23.900 had that moment of panic of like, wait, did I look at the eclipse? Is this why I was getting all

00:03:28.200 paranoid? Do I have the long eclipse? Someone who does not have long eclipse is our good friend,

00:03:34.020 Dr. Nilly Kaplan-Mirth. She is, I'm in her city, so I have to pay tribute to her. Nilly Kaplan-Mirth

00:03:40.100 is an Ottawa school trustee, and she had her Eclipse goggles ready to go yesterday.

00:03:49.960 Ah, yeah, she was, as she says in the post, they're trying to troll the anti-science, 0.87

00:03:56.400 what is it, the anti-sci, I can't read that word, she's trying to, the nitwits,

00:04:00.540 The anti-science nitwits because she has the progress pride flag, the eclipse glasses, and the N95 mask while she is outside. 0.76

00:04:08.940 Now, the joke is on her because I suspect she'll be wearing those eclipse glasses basically for the next 10 years anytime she is stepping outside. 0.98

00:04:17.840 So that's something that we should definitely keep an eye out, no pun intended, for there.

00:04:22.980 Let me just bring up first and foremost here why I think we are missing the boat on a lot of what government's doing.

00:04:29.380 So the big climate change file is one that, according to some activists, the federal government is not spending enough money on.

00:04:38.280 Yeah, this was a story that True North has kept an eye on.

00:04:43.260 I saw it in the Toronto Star.

00:04:44.340 Now, their framing of this is a little bit different than what perhaps your and my framing would be.

00:04:49.460 But there's a research company that focuses on sustainable finance, the sustainable economy.

00:04:55.140 It's called Corporate Knights.

00:04:56.280 I hadn't heard of it before they came out with this report saying that the Liberal government has spent, well, I think it was about $39 billion on climate change stuff in the last nine years.

00:05:09.360 $39 billion fighting against climate change.

00:05:11.600 And you may think, oh, wow, that sounds like a lot of money.

00:05:14.140 I'm glad they're calling the government out on that.

00:05:16.560 Oh, no, no, no.

00:05:17.480 They're saying that is just a drop in the bucket.

00:05:20.500 The government should have been spending more, and the government has only spent about 70% of what it said it was going to spend.

00:05:27.560 So their issue is that the federal government has spent not enough, that they've only spent this money on climate change, and they're actually short by about $14 billion.

00:05:39.000 So they need to throw more money at the weather, more money on this file, so that they will be able to do what exactly?

00:05:46.360 Change the weather?

00:05:47.600 Is that kind of the goal they're after here?

00:05:49.760 So we will perhaps see what on earth they are attempting to do in due course.

00:05:55.620 But again, I have no doubt that the government will continue to spend the money

00:05:58.520 because this is the activist set to whom the government is very much beholden,

00:06:03.380 more than taxpayers.

00:06:05.140 And in the budget that's coming up,

00:06:07.480 Chrystia Freeland and Justin Trudeau have not committed to there being no new taxes.

00:06:11.980 They say there won't be new taxes for the middle class,

00:06:14.880 but they aren't saying there won't be new taxes in general.

00:06:18.320 And I think this is something that we always need to keep an eye on because definitions matter.

00:06:22.840 What they define as middle class and what they define as being wealthy and subject to increased taxation may differ from what ordinary Canadians who are forced to deal with the rising cost of living have to say about these questions.

00:06:36.500 So that's definitely something that we should be watching here on the upcoming budget.

00:06:41.460 And I would also point out that the government is still not dealing with the very imminent and immediate relief.

00:06:48.320 The people are seeking from it when it comes to the carbon tax. And again, I mean, I know this has been like the broken record subject. We've had carbon tax stories on the show most days, most weeks for the last several months because there was obviously a big lead up to this.

00:07:03.080 the conservatives decided to make this their hill to die on there was that glimmer of hope when

00:07:07.160 everyone took to the streets on april 1st across the country and in alberta as my colleague rachel

00:07:12.460 emmanuel has been reporting they are still protesting about a week and a half on this

00:07:16.940 increase to the carbon tax they're out there all over the province and it's been going on for

00:07:21.560 several well for over a week now but all of that is to say the government has been unflinching on

00:07:28.360 this. They have decided to make the carbon tax their hill to stand on. It was a weird one for

00:07:33.600 the Liberal government to have some little bit of round of principles on, but they've decided to

00:07:38.480 stick firm on this and continue defending that carbon tax. Now, what's been interesting to see

00:07:45.140 is the erosion of federalism here. Now, provincial premiers are supposed to have, in theory, a co-equal

00:07:53.520 political relationship with the federal government. It's not that the federal government

00:07:57.280 is overseeing provinces. It's that the federal government has its area of jurisdiction. The

00:08:02.780 provincial governments have their area of jurisdiction. And the prime minister is really

00:08:06.980 supposed to be the first among equals in a lot of ways, where they will have first minister's

00:08:11.920 meetings. First minister's meetings means that the premiers and the prime minister... So I should

00:08:17.440 actually point out here, in French, premier and prime minister are the same. It's premier ministre.

00:08:23.340 So Premier and Prime Minister are actually the same role.

00:08:26.760 You could call Justin Trudeau the Premier of Canada.

00:08:29.420 You could call Doug Ford the Prime Minister of Ontario.

00:08:32.100 We don't, but those terms actually used to be more interchangeable, certainly more than

00:08:36.380 they are today.

00:08:37.040 In Quebec, Quebec's the only province that calls both the Premier Ministre.

00:08:42.280 But the reason I bring that up is that Justin Trudeau believes the provinces are there to

00:08:46.520 do his bidding.

00:08:47.440 When he wants to impose a carbon tax, he looks to the provinces and says, you guys have to

00:08:52.640 fall in line on this. And I think that's incredibly dangerous because right now you

00:08:57.700 have six premiers that are saying, we want a first ministers meeting. We want all the first

00:09:02.760 ministers of this country to come together, all 14, 10 provinces, three territories, one federal

00:09:07.460 government. We want them all to come together and have it out over this carbon tax. Let's have an

00:09:12.240 emergency meeting. And Justin Trudeau's answer to this is, well, you know, we kind of, we already

00:09:19.640 did this didn't we we we did when did we do it oh uh yeah 2016. so eight years ago you had a meeting

00:09:27.160 discussed the carbon tax and by the way changes of government have been mounting since then

00:09:32.520 alberta has gone through two premiers since then every province has had one in some cases two

00:09:37.720 elections since then and we're supposed to just be happy that oh well yeah we already talked about

00:09:42.120 that it's a fait accompli it's done yeah it's done no point in discussing it further well

00:09:47.240 that's not cutting it for many of the provincial governments in this country and you know the

00:09:53.160 reason that this has been such an interesting tactic from the conservatives is because the

00:09:58.360 liberals are still with the ndp trying to have the discussion about anything other than what ordinary

00:10:03.640 canadians are having it about so you may have seen over the weekend true north ran a story about this

00:10:08.440 alex jones who is the the head of info wars decided to have some kind words to say about

00:10:14.840 Pierre Polyev. Now, it was kind of reported by some people as an endorsement. It really wasn't

00:10:19.500 a formal endorsement. It was a vote of confidence. It was an endorsement in the broad sense, but not

00:10:24.840 like a, I hereby declare, I throw my support behind this guy. But he had put out a tweet when

00:10:30.440 he said, yeah, I've been following this guy for a while. He's the real deal. And oh man,

00:10:34.560 the liberal machine just like went apoplectic on this, including outgoing new Democrat MP,

00:10:40.100 Charlie Angus. This government promised to ban the AR-15. That's the weapon that was used to murder

00:10:47.120 26-year-old children at Sandy Hook. And yet on Thursday, the Conservative leader was tweeting

00:10:53.240 that the government wasn't going after the AR-15, but hunting rifles. So little wonder he gets

00:10:58.080 endorsed by Alex Jones, who's notorious for taunting families of children murdered by the

00:11:03.860 AR-15. So will the minister confirm, is the government going after hunting rifles or the

00:11:08.700 AR-15, or is this the Conservative leader being the quote, real deal of disinformation for the

00:11:13.520 likes of Alex Jones? The Honourable Minister of Public Service, our public safety.

00:11:21.700 Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for his question and salute his long service

00:11:26.740 in this House on behalf of the people of Mayor of Ontario. Mr. Speaker, I share...

00:11:33.400 I've never had that much applause, Mr. Speaker, in the House before.

00:11:40.240 Mr. Speaker, I share our colleagues' concern about the Conservative policy with respect to gun control.

00:11:46.500 We have said from the beginning, law-abiding hunters and sportspersons are not the subject of these regulations.

00:11:53.580 Mr. Speaker, what we're doing is taking away guns that were designed to kill people on the battlefield,

00:11:59.660 field. And we're also prepared to compensate the people that bought those guns lawfully.

00:12:04.280 It's something the Conservative Party will undo and we're committed to keeping Canadians safe.

00:12:09.720 It's something the Conservative Party will undo. The Conservatives all should have said

00:12:13.240 here, here when he said that. He was just setting them up for it. It's a weird thing because the

00:12:19.200 Liberals love talking about this issue. The NDP and them are great partners on this. They can talk

00:12:23.400 about, ooh, assault rifles, ooh, assault guns. One of my colleagues points out the usage of the

00:12:28.960 words sports persons. You can't say sportsman anymore. It's sports persons, sports people kind

00:12:34.360 and all of that. But the reality is it's hilarious when Dominic LeBlanc, the public safety minister

00:12:40.120 there says this is not going after people who are law abiding gun owners. And then,

00:12:45.140 oh, we're compensating people who bought these guns lawfully.

00:12:49.360 Wait, so you're admitting that people who bought these guns lawfully are being targeted by the

00:12:55.660 so-called gun buyback because it's only the people that bought them lawfully that have to turn those

00:12:59.620 guns into the government so it's a weird inconsistency and just to contrast it with

00:13:05.340 yesterday's show when i spoke to the new cfo the new chief firearms officer of saskatchewan as well

00:13:11.160 as the firearms commissioner that is murray cowan and robert freeberg respectively and they were

00:13:17.100 talking about how their province has decided to put the law-abiding gun owners that community in

00:13:21.500 Saskatchewan front and center with their approach. You contrast that with the federal government where

00:13:25.780 everything is about the way to antagonize lawful gun owners and also gun businesses. And this has

00:13:32.080 been something I've been harping on for quite some time. You may have seen, I did a documentary

00:13:36.000 a couple of years back called Assaulted, Justin Trudeau's War on Gun Owners. And in that one

00:13:41.680 episode was devoted to gun businesses, people that set up shop, they did everything right,

00:13:47.220 They play by the rules and they were saddled with, in some cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars in inventory, which still, after four years, they have been unable to do anything with because of this gun reclassification and the inability for the government to put its so-called buyback into force.

00:14:05.600 Now, one of the techniques that the government was going to do was working with firearms industry members, working with firearms stores, and find a way to get these businesses to be able to offload their inventory legally.

00:14:20.300 Now, this was something that they'd worked out a deal with the Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association, and actually the CSAAA got a fair bit of pushback from some members of the gun community for agreeing to be a part of this.

00:14:32.260 And I want to get to that in this interview here, but the president of the Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association, Wes Winkle, has said it's clear the government is in over its head here.

00:14:42.160 They bit off more than it could chew. Take your cliche, put it there. It fits.

00:14:46.300 The government just is floundering and doesn't know what to do to make up for this ambitious goal it set out now, again, almost four years ago to the day.

00:14:55.360 Wes Winkle joins us again. Good to talk to you again, Wes. Thanks for coming on today.

00:15:02.260 oh i'm not hearing you there i think you might be muted oh it's this okay i hear you now you hear

00:15:09.080 me now okay so let me just start off with some of the criticism that you've got because i know

00:15:14.700 there have been a number of gun activists that i believe operating good faith that

00:15:18.540 when your organization agreed to work with the government on this thought that it was akin to

00:15:23.660 selling out absolutely yeah we uh were aware that we were going to receive some pushback on it

00:15:29.980 we're in a real catch-22 we we have businesses that have these firearms registered to their

00:15:34.380 inventory uh these these firearms are not saleable they are very expensive to insure

00:15:41.340 they've been stuck for a long time as unsaleable inventory and we have a lot of members that are

00:15:46.860 trying to find a way to get their capital out of them and reinvest it in other parts of our

00:15:51.260 industry and to try to keep their businesses going uh we of course as an association and

00:15:57.020 you know as business owners want nothing more for this law to be reversed and just to be allowed to

00:16:01.260 sell our inventory again but there's a reality that businesses have to deal with and right now

00:16:05.260 that reality is we can't do that so we've always as an industry group have asked the federal

00:16:11.100 government to consult us on any laws or policy or any change to policy and in this case when they

00:16:16.940 reached out and asked us to consult it's very difficult to ask to be consulted and then to

00:16:21.100 turn around and thumb your nose when you're asked so we had a vote as a board of directors and and

00:16:25.900 had a unanimous agreement that we would enter into discussions and try to negotiate the best

00:16:32.380 deal we could inside of a terrible situation and that's kind of where we're at we have no interest

00:16:38.860 or any part of wanting to assist the government in buying back individuals guns or to get in the way

00:16:44.380 of a gun confiscation program with with people that own these firearms at home and want to keep

00:16:48.780 them we have nothing to do with that this is just strictly to deal with the dealer's inventory and

00:16:53.500 for those that don't realize this is all registered in ledgers it's something that everyone knows what

00:16:58.780 we have and it's when the amnesty expires they have to be dealt with and these businesses already

00:17:05.100 we've seen so many go out of business we're just trying to help some of these businesses that are

00:17:08.540 floundering with this inventory and i know there was reporting of the the value of this agreement

00:17:14.460 that was not money that your organization was receiving from the government correct

00:17:18.300 Correct. We, again, didn't want our businesses to have to pay for doing any of the federal government's legwork. We're liaisoning with the businesses to try to assist them in this venture. But at the same time, we didn't want them to have to pay for it through the association's donations or money.

00:17:37.020 So we only agreed to do it if the government would recompensate us for all of our expenses in this project.

00:17:43.740 So that's where the total contract value was posted of what could possibly the expenses get up to.

00:17:51.080 But we're only getting reimbursed for our expenditures.

00:17:55.520 So to bring it outside of your organization specifically and talk about the effect on businesses, how are the business owners on this?

00:18:04.880 Because I know some are fire breathing activists that are saying, you know, they're kind of like the cold dead hands types that just want to fight this tooth and nail.

00:18:11.400 Whereas others, I suspect, are like you just described.

00:18:14.260 They're like, listen, I just want to run my business as it stands right now.

00:18:17.680 I can't do anything with this inventory, so I want to offload it.

00:18:20.200 Is there a bit of a split there?

00:18:22.200 Well, there is definitely a little bit of a split there.

00:18:24.980 There's a faction of businesses and we knew that they existed.

00:18:29.240 And, you know, it's one of those things where it's a divisive subject for us because we have to go with what the majority of businesses in our feedback wanted.

00:18:38.960 And, you know, there are some that are that cold, dead hands mantra.

00:18:42.780 And I understand it.

00:18:44.100 And to be honest, I commend them on their conviction on it.

00:18:47.920 But at the same point, we have businesses that have extremely large volumes of this inventory,

00:18:53.660 whether they be distributors that had hundreds of thousands of dollars or manufacturers that

00:18:58.980 hundreds of thousands of dollars, these inventory that just don't have the ability to say,

00:19:04.060 I can't participate in this. They, they need a way to get out of this. Like I said,

00:19:09.720 we've had businesses that have reported that just to ensure this inventory has cost them $20,000 a

00:19:14.800 year. So obviously we have that large disclaimer where we have that problem. So yeah, we've,

00:19:22.220 we've definitely um tried to get uh uh the best deal we can for those businesses involved

00:19:29.660 and yeah there's some that uh we're unhappy and they want us to never have a conversation with

00:19:33.900 the federal government and we understand that we're very frustrated with the amount of attack

00:19:39.420 we've received from this current federal government but at the same time uh it's hard to become uh

00:19:45.900 an industry representative or a lobby group if you refuse to talk to the people in charge

00:19:49.660 So when I did my documentary about this a couple of years ago, there was one store owner I spoke to was in Peterborough or just outside.

00:19:58.220 And I can't remember the name of the business, but the gentleman I spoke to was Jeff Toomes.

00:20:03.580 And one of the things that he had shared, which I thought was incredibly concerning, was that the initial order and counsel came out in May of 2020.

00:20:13.060 He immediately pivots and says, OK, we're going to buy a bunch of this other gun that's kind of similar that people will like.

00:20:18.600 And then two weeks later, that one's also prohibited. So he attempts to get around the one issue that the government has created. And in the end, he's doubled his problems here. Has the government expressed any contrition for just how arbitrary this is, and how dangerous it is for business owners that actually don't know how to navigate around this when even things they do to try to adapt and mitigate end up screwing them even further?

00:20:43.720 and they have not i mean this is part of the real problem with the legislation that minister

00:20:49.840 blair brought forward back in the day is that uh through the order of council and the subsequent

00:20:54.820 legislation you're banning a style of firearms so there's no mechanical definition for what is

00:21:00.380 prohibited and therefore it's an arbitrary decision by a panel of people and it's very

00:21:06.440 difficult for us to know as an industry what is and what is not going to be prohibited when you

00:21:11.480 start saying stuff like of modern design and stuff like that like what does that mean and nobody

00:21:17.500 really knows and we have some we have some very interesting discussion topics inside here of

00:21:26.440 whether a firearm will be allowed or not and then there's times where we get notification that it's

00:21:31.320 classified as non-restricted which means we can sell it and then it changes again down the road

00:21:36.200 when there's more volume of this gun getting imported so it's a very difficult business

00:21:40.660 environment and then what happens of course is our manufacturers that spend uh hundreds of

00:21:45.860 thousands of dollars to pivot and to try to produce something for the canadian market that's

00:21:49.820 viable and legal and then it gets prohibited as well they give up on trying to design guns for

00:21:54.740 the canadian market and again that makes it very hard for our retailers to find product that we

00:22:00.260 can sell legally to hunters and to target shooters that want to participate in the sports so uh yeah

00:22:07.200 it's been extremely difficult. Canada has been a very frustrating thing for our manufacturers and

00:22:13.880 a lot of them have just given up and turned their back on us as a country because they don't know

00:22:18.440 how to participate in our market anymore. One thing that I wanted to ask about that

00:22:23.180 as well and people that aren't gun owners may not realize this but a gun is not just a gun. I mean

00:22:27.900 a gun can oftentimes be a base unit that people add a whole bunch of stuff to and modify. I mean

00:22:33.640 For example, the much maligned AR-15, one of the reasons that gun is so appealing, that style of gun, it's not one model, is because it's modular and people will buy different parts for it.

00:22:44.320 And when we talk about this in the context of the buyback, one of the points you raised, and I read this in a piece by Brian Passifium in the National Post, was that the government didn't even seem to realize that complexity with this and just how many thousands and thousands of parts there are that also may or may not fall under this buyback.

00:23:01.800 And it's not even quite clear if they do.

00:23:03.640 well for sure and and again you know with the bureaucrats involved in the system how could they

00:23:09.900 have known there they weren't experts in this field and you know when the government did the

00:23:13.900 knee-jerk reaction to bring this order and council forward and minister blair there was no consultation

00:23:18.540 beforehand because it was a knee-jerk reaction and a very fast order and council brought forward

00:23:24.240 so without consultation and understanding the topic that they're bringing legislation in on

00:23:28.900 yeah, I actually feel for the bureaucrats in the system that are trying to navigate it afterwards 0.91

00:23:35.620 because they get thrown a terrible file and say, clean this up. And it really isn't that easy to

00:23:43.320 clean up. And now we're, as an industry and as a level of bureaucrats, everyone's trying to clean

00:23:50.600 up the mess that Minister Blair made. So, I mean, we can't talk about this without addressing the

00:23:56.280 political elephant in the room, which is that there could be an election theoretically at any

00:23:59.600 point. They're scheduled to be an election by October of 2025. From your knowledge of this

00:24:06.360 process, will this gun buyback even be in place and buying back? Again, I hate that term, but

00:24:12.760 will that even be happening by October 2025? I would anticipate with the steps that have

00:24:20.860 been put forward that there will be firearms purchased from businesses by that point in time.

00:24:25.540 I believe that will happen.

00:24:28.200 The one from the individuals, the guns that are in people's houses,

00:24:32.540 I believe that that is a way more convoluted process.

00:24:36.960 They're so spread out in a country as rural as Canada.

00:24:40.440 I don't believe that process gets going by that point in time.

00:24:43.680 I think that's why you've seen the amnesty get pushed out past the election.

00:24:47.320 You know, I think, you know, when you've seen the amnesty date announced,

00:24:50.360 it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this will probably be an election issue.

00:24:54.380 You know, I think you'll have the the liberals saying, hey, you know, if you vote blue that, you know, this big, bad firearm would be back out in society.

00:25:04.580 And, you know, I'm sure that's what the plan is and, you know, vice versa for the other side.

00:25:09.420 But, you know, the reality is, is that these firearms have been stayed in people's cabinets from the day that they were prohibited.

00:25:14.880 They have never left there.

00:25:16.680 There's been, of course, no crimes committed with them.

00:25:19.980 So it's it's it is all political posturing.

00:25:22.820 That's all it is.

00:25:23.480 we know that as an industry we've been a pawn in the politics game for a long time and it's

00:25:27.980 it's frustrating for those of us in business trying to keep people employed and trying to

00:25:32.260 make a living Wes Winkle president of the Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association thanks

00:25:37.740 so much for coming on today Wes good to talk to you thank you for the time we appreciate it all

00:25:41.860 right thank you and I would just encourage to give the shameless plug again you can check out my

00:25:46.400 documentary on this assaulted Justin Trudeau's war on gun owners it is a couple years old now

00:25:51.460 but still just as fresh, although some of the problems are even more acute. There have been

00:25:55.900 no resolutions, just more problems in that. And as mentioned, one of the episodes dealt specifically

00:26:00.680 with businesses. We also did an episode on competitive sport shooters, which was quite

00:26:04.580 interesting. We did four parts. What were the other parts? One, I think, which is focused on crime

00:26:08.780 and a lot of the law enforcement angle. And maybe I need to watch it again because I've now forgotten

00:26:12.740 what it was about. So we had a fourth part that was about, oh, it was about, actually, no, that

00:26:17.820 was the same as the other one i don't know we'll figure it out but it was it was a fun series i'm

00:26:21.700 glad to do it and i've had a few people reach out and say it might be worth doing a sequel to that

00:26:26.640 so uh we will perhaps try and put something together see what see what else there is to

00:26:31.300 cover on that but i wanted to shift gears from one hot button issue to another we have seen over

00:26:37.640 the weekend the six month anniversary of hamas's horrific attacks on israel and the subsequent

00:26:44.660 traumatizing of the Jewish people across the world, including in Canada. Now, just to put a

00:26:50.880 fine point on this, I saw yesterday, just in my travels in Ottawa, a member of parliament who is

00:26:56.320 from the Jewish community, who has, not in cabinet, not the prime minister, obviously,

00:27:01.280 who had a police escort, which is something that in this country, we have not seen on just regular

00:27:08.100 old members of parliament, certainly in my lifetime. And the distinction is, and this has

00:27:13.700 been reported on, several members of the Jewish community who are members of parliament have

00:27:17.680 police details because it is otherwise not safe to be walking around this country as a Jew. And

00:27:24.800 that is a terrifying reality. Jewish businesses have been vandalized. And yes, there have been

00:27:29.580 attacks in this country on Muslims as well. Horrific attacks. One in my own city where a 0.99

00:27:34.780 terrible, terrible, vile, evil piece of human filth decided to target a Muslim family for no 1.00

00:27:41.980 other reason than he wanted to kill Muslims. He's now behind bars, which people would say is 1.00

00:27:47.020 actually getting off easy. And there's a part of me that's inclined to agree with that, as much as

00:27:51.960 my position on the death penalty is a little bit more complicated. And then you had that horrific

00:27:57.760 attack on a Quebec mosque some years back as well. So this is not to say that one group has a

00:28:04.860 monopoly on being targeted and persecuted, but it is to say that these sorts of attacks have very

00:28:11.020 political implications and how they are reported. And this was put front and center by a very

00:28:16.520 thoughtful and detailed analysis that was published by the Aristotle Foundation. It was written by

00:28:22.180 Raheem Muhammad, who is a columnist with the National Post. He's got a PhD. He's a very well

00:28:27.460 educated guy. Also very entertaining on Twitter. You should definitely give Raheem a follow there

00:28:32.020 if you're not already. But he joins me on the line now. Raheem, good to talk to you. Thanks for

00:28:36.360 coming on today. Andrew, great to see you. I saw you were involved in Jamil's swearing in the other

00:28:40.580 Jamil Javani, a mutual friend, very cool.

00:28:44.160 Yes, I haven't actually mentioned it to the audience.

00:28:46.780 I had the privilege yesterday.

00:28:47.940 That's why I came up to Ottawa a bit earlier,

00:28:49.480 being the emcee for Jamil's swearing-in yesterday.

00:28:53.160 I've known Jamil, and we worked in a number of capacities

00:28:55.720 before he was a political candidate.

00:28:57.220 So it was a great honour to be involved in that.

00:29:00.020 And I was actually quite pleased that when I was emceeing him,

00:29:03.180 Justin Trudeau didn't just intervene and have the swearing-in cancelled.

00:29:06.200 So Jamil still gets to be a member of Parliament.

00:29:08.760 But Rahim, you have taken a very controversial research question here, and I was hoping you could explain it in your own words first, what you set out to look at and then, of course, what you found.

00:29:21.080 Sure. So backing up a little bit, Canada, which is historically, I think it's fair to say, had a Christian heritage.

00:29:27.320 It's becoming an increasingly pluralistic country religiously.

00:29:30.700 According to the last census that was taken in 2021, we're at the point where about 50% of Canadians are Christian and the other 50% either identify with no religion or another religion.

00:29:42.420 So I think as Canada becomes more religiously pluralistic, it's all the more important that you have strong norms and maintain strong norms of interfaith relations and interfaith civility.

00:29:56.300 So one way that's been expressed in the past, so as you mentioned, Andrew, in your own hometown of London, Ontario, you had that terrible truck attack against that Pakistani Muslim family during the Quebec City Mosque attack.

00:30:09.880 It's been a custom and I think an important one for religious groups from across the spectrum,

00:30:16.500 you know, be they Jewish, Hindu, Christian, whatever, to put out a press release after

00:30:21.240 something like that happens that will say, you know, we stand with the Muslim community.

00:30:27.160 You know, we stand against religious hatred and religious violence in all forms.

00:30:31.740 So we saw that, thankfully, after the Quebec City mosque shooting. 1.00

00:30:35.660 And we saw that after the London, Ontario truck attack.

00:30:38.920 October the 7th has been a different story.

00:30:41.660 And I think it's fair to say the circumstances are somewhat different with October the 7th.

00:30:46.140 It is an attack that took place on foreign soil.

00:30:48.940 And fair enough, but a number of Canadians were killed on October the 7th.

00:30:52.600 And a few of these were Canadians that were actively working with Palestinian groups as

00:30:57.500 part of the peace process in Gaza.

00:30:59.900 Others were young Canadians in their 20s that were there for the music festival in

00:31:04.800 southern israel um so the fact that we haven't seen much in the way of condemnation or much in

00:31:10.900 the way of regret uh from the muslim community muslim organized muslim groups in canada um

00:31:16.900 surrounding if not the attack the loss of canadian life and uh you know the the many more canadians

00:31:22.660 uh who lost members of their extended families on october the 7th um i don't think that bodes well

00:31:28.300 for uh for religious pluralism and where interfaith relations are in canada at present

00:31:33.700 And just to put a fine point on this, you're contrasting that with the fact that overwhelmingly Jewish groups, and you list who was in your sample here, were condemning those Quebec City and London, Ontario incidents almost unanimously.

00:31:47.740 Sure. So even an organization like CJA, the Canadian Association of Jewish Affairs, which I would say is fairly Zionist, if you want to use that word, pro-Israel, right after Quebec City, they put out a statement right after the London, Ontario truck attack.

00:32:03.880 within 24 hours, they put out a statement condemning each attack and condemning violence

00:32:10.200 against Muslim Canadians. So they're able to separate violence on Muslim Canadians from the

00:32:16.360 situation in the Middle East. And unfortunately, again, the detail is somewhat different. In

00:32:21.520 October the 7th, it's nevertheless been somewhat underwhelming that very few organized Muslim

00:32:27.080 groups have put out statements, either one condemning Hamas or at the very least expressing

00:32:35.780 their condolences to those who lost family members during the October the 7th attack.

00:32:42.200 So, sorry, go ahead.

00:32:43.760 No, so I agree with your core conclusion because I think there is a double standard here.

00:32:48.220 I have a slight issue with the methodology in the sense that not only was October 7th

00:32:55.560 foreign soil and i think your your caveat the canadians were involved is valid but there's

00:33:00.360 also a much greater political context to is to hamas israel violence than i i would say there is

00:33:08.600 in an attack by a lone wolf in london ontario or by one in quebec city and and maybe maybe i'm i'm

00:33:15.880 you know i i'm just curious your thought about that because you must have considered it that

00:33:20.760 that it's there are political stakes that are different when you're commenting on anything to

00:33:24.760 do with israel that aren't there with a terrorist attack in canada so what i'd point to is the scale

00:33:31.800 of october the 7th 1100 um so i believe about 3 000 american civilians were killed on september

00:33:39.640 the 11th um so you're talking about uh scales you know in the thousands and um you talk about

00:33:44.920 something like september 11th 2001 you know intellectually i understand the geopolitical

00:33:50.360 dynamics uh that would lead to an attack on a major american target uh i think that's totally

00:33:56.920 different from the 3 000 innocent civilians uh that lost their lives on september the 11th and

00:34:03.240 i would say the same about um about october the 7th you know i understand the geopolitical uh

00:34:09.400 dynamics at play i understand the complexities of the israel hamas conflict um that doesn't mean

00:34:15.480 that um you know anything will justify the targeting civilians um and any that that doesn't

00:34:20.920 in any way diminish the pain of people here in canada who've lost family members and friends

00:34:26.680 on october the 7th and i think at the very least uh that grief and that suffering uh should be

00:34:32.680 acknowledged um as part of interfaith relations as far as part of portality uh between uh religious

00:34:40.520 communities here in canada no i think that's an incredibly well made and it's a well taken point

00:34:46.360 as well and just looking outside of the event specific observations here i remember when m103

00:34:51.880 came up which was the anti-islamophobia motion that was a debate i think it was about you know

00:34:56.200 five or six years ago one of the things that was interesting there was a lot of jewish groups

00:35:00.440 really stood shoulder to shoulder with muslim groups that are saying yes we need to combat 1.00

00:35:05.160 islamophobia and then when the discussion shifted to anti-semitism a lot of that reciprocity was

00:35:10.200 not there and certainly in the last six months hasn't been yeah i mean that's that's a little

00:35:14.840 before my time to be honest i was in the united states so i remember tangentially uh that was

00:35:19.560 going on but i didn't pay too close attention to that that whole debate fair enough and i guess i

00:35:26.280 would ask what you'd think would happen if you expanded this outside of these uh you know

00:35:31.320 casualty events events with casualties and looked even at smaller scale incidences like vandalism

00:35:37.480 against mosques and synagogues. Because without having looked at it from a data perspective,

00:35:42.200 it does seem like there's a great political imbalance in which ones attract the attention

00:35:47.160 of national media, which ones attract the attention of the tweet from Justin Trudeau,

00:35:51.480 for example. So is it True North that's been tracking church arson and vandalism?

00:35:58.200 Yeah, my colleague Cosman Georgia has as well. And I think we're up to well over 100 now.

00:36:01.960 Yeah. And I've heard maybe a handful of stories about that.

00:36:06.840 I remember I think it might have been Jerry Butts tweeting something to the effect of, I understand what would make someone want to burn down a church.

00:36:14.260 But at the same time, you know, so yeah, I mean, I have noticed and I think it's sort of it plays into this sort of EDI framework in which we see Jewish communities and Christian communities as somewhat privileged.

00:36:30.600 And, you know, by virtue of that privilege, essentially asking for acts of intimidation, acts of antagonism, acts of hatred.

00:36:39.180 I do agree with you that there's been a substantial imbalance and that church arson story has been incredibly underreported.

00:36:47.320 One of the few times I've actually actually remember a church arson get a substantial amount of attention in the media was when it was a Coptic Christian church of that of mostly Egyptian Christian parishioners.

00:36:59.660 And what you did have that sort of minoritized follower or that minoritized parishioner.

00:37:06.460 So I will say I agree with you 100 percent that I think the reportings of, you know, when you see these actions targeting mosques or synagogues or churches, it has been inconsistent.

00:37:18.680 Not that any of those of those things are OK.

00:37:21.880 to bring it back to your analysis from the aristotle foundation i know you're looking at

00:37:27.000 the data not necessarily the the motivations behind it but but just you know taking your

00:37:31.720 political mind which i think is certainly a a superb one uh anyone who's read your column

00:37:36.680 could say do you think the motivation here is just a a deep ideological view that these

00:37:42.440 organizations hold or do you think it's a part of their own coalition and not wanting to alienate

00:37:49.000 constituencies they have that make up part of their supporters for whom this will be an issue.

00:37:53.880 Yeah. And I mean, one thing I will say is you've seen a lot of migration to Canada

00:37:58.360 over the past 20 or so years from the Middle East. Barbara Kay has a great article about this,

00:38:04.920 about how this relates to Quebec and Quebec wanting to stay French. And due to colonial

00:38:10.760 dynamics, a number of pockets of the Middle East and North Africa have sizable communities that

00:38:18.520 are francophone um so i think you are looking at leaderships uh within muslim organizations

00:38:25.320 um you have different i think values among the first wave of muslim immigrants uh my parents uh

00:38:31.240 came over from uganda we're smiling muslim we'd be part of it um and some of the newer arrivals

00:38:35.960 um from let's say 1995 to present um and i do think part of the story um are these associations

00:38:42.120 which you know rely on donations rely on uh maintaining and cultivating active membership

00:38:46.840 bases, attempting to keep those bases together when you have potentially a plurality of viewpoints

00:38:54.780 toward, you know, do we embrace a more Western pluralistic view of values or more of a hardline

00:39:02.520 approach? Yeah, years ago, I was in Israel, and I was doing a, it wasn't a formal interview,

00:39:08.820 but I was doing a roundtable, and there was a Palestinian radio host, and I was a radio host

00:39:12.860 in canada at the time so i was interested in in his analysis and he had at the time it was 2015

00:39:18.360 there had been this spate of knives of knife attacks against against israelis and you know

00:39:24.480 he had said oh yeah he did a caller show a call-in show on his radio program in which he asked is it

00:39:30.760 okay to stab jews in the streets and which is like a strange question that you would never ask 0.55

00:39:34.620 a canadian radio we have that is it okay to punch a white supremacist remember that yeah yeah and 0.99

00:39:38.920 And he was like 17. Yeah. And he was proud to tell me he's like, oh, but most said no. I'm like, Mo, like, so there is a constituency that would call into radio and say, yeah, yeah, you know, stabbing an Israeli is fine. And that, and that has stayed with me. Because when you talk about this, it's like, even a small contingent of these, of any community can have tremendous influence on, on these things. 0.86

00:40:00.580 So when it comes to, like, not condemning a horrific attack that killed 1,200 Israelis and non-Israelis, as you've pointed out, I think that's incredibly noteworthy.

00:40:10.160 Well, we have a news report up about it at True North, but you can read the report for yourself over at the Aristotle Foundation.

00:40:16.020 The author, Rahim Mohamed.

00:40:17.780 Great talking to you, sir.

00:40:18.680 We'll see you soon.

00:40:19.880 I'll see you tomorrow in Ottawa, I hope.

00:40:21.120 I'm going to be there.

00:40:21.540 All right.

00:40:21.800 I hope so.

00:40:22.460 Thank you.

00:40:23.860 We'll have to pull you to our little booth and do an in-person chat then.

00:40:26.840 Wonderful.

00:40:27.260 Looking forward to it.

00:40:28.020 All right.

00:40:28.340 Thanks very much, Rahim Mohamed.

00:40:29.720 Well, that's it for us for today. I will be live tomorrow, same time, a different place on the Andrew Lawton Show.

00:40:36.200 But stay tuned. We'll talk to you then. Thank you. God bless and good day to you all.

00:40:40.900 Thanks for listening to the Andrew Lawton Show. Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

00:40:59.720 We'll be right back.

00:41:29.720 We'll be right back.

Juno News - April 09, 2024

Activists say Trudeau should be spending more on climate change

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