Juno News - December 19, 2025After Charlie Kirk, can we still talk？
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Summary
It's been three months since the death of Charlie Kirk, and it was crazy at the time, the reaction from the left. And we're going to talk about that today. I invited author, philosopher, and former professor Patrick Keeney to join me on the show, after his C2C Journal article about Charlie, and we talk about the Canadian context, and things that have changed or maybe not changed, got worse, got better since then.
Transcript
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It's been three months since the death of Charlie Kirk, and it was crazy at the time,
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the reaction from the left. And we're going to talk about that today. I invited author,
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philosopher, and former professor Patrick Keeney to join me on the show following his C2C journal
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article about Charlie. And we're going to talk about the Canadian context. We're going to talk
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about things that have changed or maybe not changed, got worse, got better ever since then.
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So, follow the link in the description and come watch the show.
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Thank you everyone for joining me. I'm Melanie Bennett for True North, and I'm joined by
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Patrick Keeney, philosopher, author, and former professor. And thank you so much for joining
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me again on the show. Well, my pleasure. Thank you for the privilege of talking to you, Melanie.
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And as people can probably see, it's Christmas, it's December. I've decided to put on my ugly
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Christmas jumper for the season. And I think for me, December is a time to reflect on the year,
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reflect on some significant events. And one of the most significant events for me was the death of
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Charlie Kirk. I think there are some, sometimes there are events that change the zeitgeist, that really
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change the course of history. And I guess down the line, we'll know exactly how much Charlie's death
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affected the course of history. But it does seem like it has had a real effect in at least the short term.
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He died, or he was killed in early September, I think it was September 10th. So it's been, it's been about
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three months. And at the time afterwards, there was a huge reaction from just about anybody who is interested
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in politics in any way, and certainly online discourse. And I want to reflect on where we're at now with
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that. Now, Patrick, in your article, you actually wrote an article for the CTC, which, which is why I reached out to you,
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actually, and in there, you, you, you quoted my favorite Alexander Schulz and Solzhenitsyn quote, which
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is the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. So I think we're going to
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start there. Now, Charlie often defended the true, the good and the beautiful. That's something that he
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because I was listening to him a lot, actually, before we spoke today, and it reminded me that he kept
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talking about the true, the good and the beautiful. And now, after his death, there were many, I guess,
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people who consider themselves progressive liberals, or liberals, socialists, people on the left, who
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would say that Charlie's values were evil, although they wouldn't use that phrase, they might call it
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hate. And they might say that there are infinite ways of understanding what's true, good and beautiful.
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And Charlie's having this one understanding of that was, was evil, we'll call it evil. And then
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conservatives will say that the reaction to this, this so-called liberal reaction to his values was,
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was evil. And so you're a philosopher. And so how, how do we understand philosophy, philosophically?
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Well, which one is correct here? Like, how do we know what, where is the evil?
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Well, evil is a loaded term. And I think, as you just mentioned, the accusations leveled that Charlie
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Kirk were more along the lines that he was hateful, or he was misogynistic, or that whole litany of
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complaints that we so often hear from the left. And like you, I, in preparation for this conversation,
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I looked at some of the videos, they're ubiquitous, as you know, you can find his videos everywhere.
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And what struck me, most forcibly, I suppose, is that Charlie Kirk was unerringly civil to even people
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who called him horrific things to his face. And of course, his banner famously proclaimed when he went
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to these events on university campuses, proved me wrong. And from what I can see, he had a civility
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about him and was only too happy to take on people who disagreed with him, which, as you know, was until
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very recently, what we in the university were supposed to do. We were supposed to listen respectfully to
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those who disagreed with us and engage them in conversation. I make reference in the C2C article
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that you mentioned, to the British philosopher Michael Oakeshott, who defined education as a
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conversation. And I always took that metaphor fairly seriously. It's a conversation that started
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thousands of years ago, if you will, and continues on for each generation. And to my way of thinking,
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Charlie Kirk embodied so many of those qualities that we want in our conversation lists, if you will.
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That is, he listened respectfully. He disagreed with many people. But he always maintained his calm,
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his equanimity, and responded to them unerringly with courtesy. Even people who, as I mentioned,
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were saying quite horrific things about him. So I think what happened, to some degree, is that there
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was this caricature of Charlie Kirk that started circulating, that he was a hate-filled, evil man,
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and that his death, as we all know, was celebrated in certain quarters, which I find horrific. Again,
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I'm of that generation in a university seminar where people who say the most outrageous things ought to
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be entertained, and ought entertained with civility. I had a professor, and I can remember as a graduate
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student hearing what, to my mind, were fairly silly things. They were innocuous, but they didn't really
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belong, in my estimation, in a PhD seminar. But this man would unerringly respond to these students with
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courtesy and respect, and give them reasons why, perhaps, they might want to rethink their position,
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or provide evidence. And that way of proceeding, again, I don't profess to be an expert on everything
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Charlie Kirk said, but that seemed to be emblematic of how he chose to conduct himself on university campuses.
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So I'm glad that you brought that up, because since Charlie's death, we have had a little bit of an
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attempt by Frances Wooderson, who's been in universities in Manitoba, and who's been recently in British Columbia.
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And although she's adapting a different exercise, street epistemology exercise from a different,
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from a philosopher, a Peter Bogosian, where you set up these mats, in case people watching don't
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know what it is, you set up these mats from highly disagree to highly agree, and then you ask questions,
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and people might, you know, change positions. It's a method of discourse, right? And Frances Wooderson took this
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method at two Canadian universities on the 215 mass graves, or the indigenous mass graves residential
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school question. And it was absolutely pandemonium. In Manitoba, there, her team was spat at, they were
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punched. Frances herself was completely surrounded by people. And so she didn't even get into, like,
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this is on the public ground of the university. It's not even in the university itself. Right, right.
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And so we're nowhere near what you're describing should be good discourse.
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I agree. And my career was long enough to catch, if you want, the beginning of the end of that
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civility that I thought should be representative of civil discourse. I mean, there's many things that
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have happened to the university. And it's hard to pick out just one or two episodes. But there seems to
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be, we seem to be captive by an ideological, totalizing kind of utopianism almost, that says that
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if you disagree with this view or that view, it's not that you're wrong, or that your evidence could be
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better, or your reasoning is amiss. It's that you're an evil person, that you disagree with me,
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and therefore I have the right to demonize you, to traduce you, to slander you, and call you horrific
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names. And that's, I don't know if we want to give a date to it, but that seems to be something that has
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gotten credence in the last, I don't know, 10 or 15 years or so. And it's antithetical to at least
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my understanding of what university education should be about. And I saw an interview, by the way,
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with Dr. Whittowson with a CBC journalist, which was absolutely cringeworthy. And this young woman
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just simply refused to let Dr. Whittowson speak. I mean, it was just one of those embarrassingly
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awful interviews where you just want to bury your head and say, oh, I don't really believe what I'm
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watching here. But, you know, Dr. Whittowson, as you well know, is a very adept academic, and she
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handles herself well in those situations. But again, the question arises, I guess, at least for
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me, what has happened that we are now at a place where our universities seem incapable of entertaining
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ideas that some people find offensive? And I mean, I find a lot of ideas offensive. I'm sure you do as
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well, Melanie. That's just the nature of the world we live in. And I think it was George Orwell, yeah,
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and it was George Orwell who said, freedom means nothing, unless it means the ability to tell people
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what they don't want to hear. And you hear lots of things that you don't want to hear, as do I.
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And that's just, if you will, both the price we pay for living in a democracy and
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the joy of living in a democracy. And, you know, we change our minds about things, at least I hope we do.
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I know I've changed my mind about lots of things over the years, and I suspect any, you know, open-minded
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In America, before Charlie died, there did seem to be some kind of momentum in America to have more
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discourse. Charlie's, he had very large audiences on college campuses, university campuses. And I was
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hopeful, even though I never really considered myself to be conservative, I was hopeful with that
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approach that was a very classical liberal approach to discourse, that that might feed into Canada. And
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it felt for a while, there was a hope that that could feed into Canada, right? But we are nowhere
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near that here in this country. And what happens on campus bleeds into society, you know, if we take
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into account a lot of this, this Palestine-Israel discourse that is very, very vitriolic towards
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Israel, right? Like it's, a lot of that is coming from the university as well. And so, three months after
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Charlie's death, and are you concerned that we're kind of losing the ability to, to engage in discourse
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Um, yeah, I guess it depends on the day you asked me that question. I mean, some days I'm more hopeful than
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others. I mean, one does see signs, uh, and cracks in the facade of this, uh, self-righteousness, I would say
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something like that. Um, uh, I, I think, you know, just speaking as a citizen, my goodness, it gets tiring
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listening to these diatribes. Uh, it really does, uh, become, uh, an exercise in, in patience to, to just get through
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the day and the tsunami of, of information. But yeah, I, I, I see there is some hope that we are,
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you know, approaching, uh, a new, uh, settlement, if you will, uh, about ideas and allowing ideas, uh, you
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know, the freedom to flourish. And, and, you know, one of the things that has happened again in the last
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decade or so is something which I find, uh, very troubling. And that is, uh, when I was growing up,
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we could disagree with one another politically and you could be X and I could be Y and that's fine.
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And then, you know, we just carry on our friendship or our relationship. But now it seems to me that we
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are so divided into camps that if I, if I like A and you like B, that means that we cannot be friends.
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And this kind of ideological self-righteousness has, has permeated all of our institutions and
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indeed not even our institutions, our friendships, right? Our relationships. I mean, I can't,
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I'll just interrupt quickly. It's more than just disagreement. It's more than just saying we
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can't be friends because there's a lot of rhetoric, uh, certainly in the UK. I don't hear it so much
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in Canada, although I started hearing this idea of a civil war, right? Because people are just
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completely incapable. If we go back to the idea of Palestine protests, although we're not seeing
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the same, or at least there is some violence. I'm not saying there isn't, but it's not to the degree
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of America and it's certainly not to the degree of the UK, but nonetheless with Palestine protests,
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I'll bring it that back there for a moment. Um, you do see, um, some violence happening. Like for
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example, rebel news is Alexa Lavois is often at these Palestine protests in the, in the rebel news, uh,
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crew will get physically attacked. And it's not just rebel news. It's also mainstream media who are
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getting attacked for merely being present. And so it's more than just, uh, it's more than just not
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being able to be friends. It's, it does feel like there's, there's violence, uh, on bubbling under
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the surface that's just waiting to emerge. And how do we, how do we bring that back into civility?
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Oh, that's a big question. And, uh, you know, I take your point. I think there is this incipient
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violence. And, uh, I mean, one thinks of, uh, you know, Robespierre and where he, you know, redefines
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our virtue as violence. I mean, violence is nothing but justice. Therefore it is virtuous. And
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again, I guess, I think a lot of individuals have, um, embraced politics in place of a religion.
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And so you find a politically charged understanding, uh, that has all the elements of a religion
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I guess, I guess without the redemption, without the grace. So if you are filled with this self
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righteousness and, uh, you know, the truth, uh, then, uh, yes, again, I guess that permits
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everything, doesn't it? You know, that, that you can, uh, do away with, uh, you know, those who stand
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in the way of this, this new utopia, you know, whether it's, uh, you know, the Jacobins and in
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revolutionary France, or, you know, uh, Joseph Stalin, or, you know, I spent a little time in
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Asia. I saw Paul Pot and what he did in Cambodia. It's just horrific. But again, none of these
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individuals think that they're ever doing anything evil. They're always doing it in the name of
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some greater good. And so if you give, uh, the individual or the, uh, this idea that their actions
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are justified by purifying the race or whatever it happens to be, then, well, anything is possible.
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And, and, uh, you know, the 20th century bears witness to that, you know, uh, just these horrific
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ideas done in the name of, um, some utopian ideal or another. And yeah, so yeah, it's, it's, um, yeah,
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I look at some of the protests in this country and, uh, it's hard not to disabuse myself of, you know,
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that same kind of rhetoric, uh, feeding those same kinds of, uh, human emotions, uh, that have proven so
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absolutely horrific and disastrous to the 20th centuries, the 20th century wars and conflicts.
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Yeah. I, I feel like I'm blackpilling this conversation because I often feel,
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pardon me. I, I, I do often feel that Canada's under a lot more stress, uh, than maybe some
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people might realize. And it doesn't mean it's all over for us. It doesn't mean everything's
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going to fall apart. I don't feel that there's this civil war threat, like, uh, like people keep,
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well, people talk a lot about in the UK, for example. Uh, but there's certainly a lot to be
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concerned about. And one of those, pardon me, one of those things is the ability to have discourse,
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the ability to speak freely, the ability to engage with people that you may or may, uh, may disagree
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with, uh, but I don't want to end on a negative note. I want to try to think about where, where are
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the, uh, slivers of hope. And I don't know, maybe you could tell me one, I'll tell you what I think
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might be a sliver of hope, even though, um, I, I'm still wondering whether or not I'm even
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conservative, but I think one thing that could be good for Canada is to move towards a bit more
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conservatism in our approach because it's gone far too crazy in the other direction. It's like unbound in
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the other direction. And it seems poll after poll seems to show that Canadian in Canada,
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specifically young people seem to be leaning more conservative with time. And that's very
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different to Australia, to the UK, right? Where they're going much more in the left direction.
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So for me, that, that is an indication that Canada could be turning around at some point.
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Maybe we haven't reached that sort of peak woke that people keep talking about,
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but maybe that might be on the horizon. And I don't know about you, Patrick, is there something
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that you see, uh, in Canada that might, uh, that makes you feel that, yeah, we're going
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to turn this ship around? Oh yeah. You know, I see evidence every day. I mean, I, I mean,
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this, these kinds of conversations we're having right now, I, I think, uh, it proves,
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it proves something. Uh, uh, Frances Whitteson's street epistemology. I mean, that, that's really helpful
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things. Even if she can't get to actually doing it, you still, you still see that as hopeful.
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The brave soul, you know, she truly is. And, uh, so I, I see that as hopeful. Um, you know,
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I'm a member of a, uh, uh, society for academic freedom and scholarship, and that's a, you know,
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a very small, but I think important group of people. So yeah, I do see optimistic signs on the horizons.
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And, you know, uh, I, I think, uh, optimism is much preferred to, to, to whatever the opposite of that is.
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And so, no, you, you see these things everywhere. And I, you know, uh, just in talking to people,
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I think, uh, we change our mind in light of better evidence. And there's a lot of evidence accruing,
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it seems to me that, uh, some of the ideas we were so quick to, um, jettison, um, for example,
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the erosion of the humanities in our, uh, institutions of higher learning in our universities.
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I think that was a terrible idea. I mean, just the, the corrosiveness, uh, uh, that,
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that has been, you know, uh, faced a liberal arts faculties, uh, I guess you would expect me to say
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such a thing, but I, I really do believe that we need to have, um, professors who are, um, you know,
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well-rounded, well-educated, and, and well-read. And, and we need citizens more, more than professors.
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We need citizens who are capable of reasoning, of judgment, the kinds of things that liberal arts
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typically taught. And, and so I think there is going to be a, a realignment at some place.
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Yeah. At some time and, and sooner rather than later, it strikes me.
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Well, I would love to share your optimism on that point. Um, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna think about that
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because I'm concerned that the, the, the academy is not pulling back on its, uh, diversion down
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leftward spiral, but we, we never know things. Uh, certainly there's a lot, certainly there's more
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discourse in the, uh, in, in the public sphere about these sorts of issues and, and it's no longer
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that controversial to speak about woke and, and so on and so forth. So there's, there's definitely
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a glimmer of hope in that direction. Right. And, you know, and we always talk about how things fall
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off the cliff, you know, uh, gradually and then suddenly, you know, it's Hemingway's line about
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bankruptcy, but it works the other way as well. You know, all of a sudden we find, my goodness me,
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uh, there's, you know, a thousand lights blooming and, and people are starting to pick up books and read,
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and, uh, they're turning off Netflix, those kinds of things, you know, and perhaps they're subtle and,
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and perhaps, uh, you know, they're, they're not earth shattering, but, uh, they are signs. And I,
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I do see those hopeful signs, um, uh, in abundance around me.
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Oh, well, you got me thinking and I, I appreciate you taking the time to, uh, to talk to me today.
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And I think it's good for people to reflect. I mean, if you're interested in Charlie Coe,
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just reflect maybe for yourself, what does it mean for you? And are you seeing, uh, positive,
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negative changes, uh, uh, uh, since, since his, uh, unfortunate assassination? Uh, but yeah,
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I appreciate you, uh, coming onto the show and talking to me today, Patrick.
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Well, thanks for the opportunity, Melanie and Merry Christmas, by the way.
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The line dividing good and evil runs through the heart of every human being,
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Alexander Solzhenitsyn. I meant that that is one of my favorite quotes, because these days it's
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really hard to know, well, how do we know what's good from evil? How do you understand whether or
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not it's your own echo chamber that is doing the talking, whether it's your deeply held beliefs
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that is driving you to believe that the other side is evil. So I'm really glad I had an opportunity
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to maybe try to unpack this a little bit with Patrick Keeney today. Uh, but I'd love to know,
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uh, what you think, how do we know, how do we know if we're right? How do we know if we're wrong?
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Now, I obviously believe that there is some concerning evil on the progressive left, but
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how do we assess these things without becoming postmodernists ourselves? So thank you so much
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for watching. Uh, please consider liking and subscribing all the usuals, and I'd love to hear