00:00:00.300Another publicly funded Ontario school board forces parents to read political statements, in this case a land acknowledgement at the start of every meeting, and then ban them from even discussing it at all.
00:00:11.120That's the heart of a judicial review launched by Dr. Jeff Horstman, a lecturer at the University of Waterloo, and he's also the father of kids at the Waterloo Region District School Board.
00:00:22.160Jeff's legal challenge argues that compelling parents to recite land acknowledgements violates their charter rights, and for him that's especially in the realm of freedom of conscience and expression.
00:00:33.760Today we'll look at how this case could shape the limits of compelled speech, ideological enforcement, and democratic accountability in school governance, possibly even across Canada.
00:00:45.200I'm Melanie Bennett. This is Disrupted.
00:00:51.480Today I'm joined with Jeff Horstman. Thank you so much for joining me today.
00:01:03.520Okay, so let me give a little bit of background context.
00:01:07.100Jeff, I invited you because you recently submitted a legal challenge to the Waterloo Region District School Board on the basis of their requirement for mandatory land acknowledgement.
00:01:19.660I'll just give a little bit of background detail as to why I'm interested in this case.
00:01:24.580In the late spring, early summer, I was covering the story of Catherine Cronos, which many people might be aware of.
00:01:31.060She objected to a land acknowledgement.
00:01:58.260The Parent Involvement Committee, individuals on the Parent Involvement Committee, including yourself, were also challenging the idea of land acknowledgements.
00:02:07.500And I had the pleasure, shall we say, of attending the last meeting.
00:02:13.160And in there, something I found very curious, because in Catherine's case, it was the principal who involved himself in whether or not the school council should be allowed to do land acknowledgements.
00:02:25.080But in your case, in Waterloo, in the Parent Involvement Committee, it was the Director of Education who specifically said,
00:02:32.160we are not going to note this in the minutes, we're not going to talk about this, we're just going to do it, and that's that.
00:02:38.560And in the meeting I attended, what I heard was pretty incredible, and I wrote about this, that the committee decided that they were going to note it in the minutes.
00:02:48.200In fact, you know, this acknowledgement, we'll put it in there, or this objection to the land acknowledgement, we're going to put that in the minutes.
00:02:53.780But we're not going to write that the Director mentioned anything.
00:02:56.960We're just going to ignore that bit, and I heard this disagreement between everyone.
00:03:03.080What I wasn't expecting is the very next day after I published this article, you, sir, came out with a legal challenge with the JCCF.
00:03:16.580Why don't you start by just giving us an overview of your legal challenge with JCCF?
00:03:23.320Sure, this legal challenge is a judicial review, and it stems from the fact that at my parent council or school council, the board has said that we are required to have land acknowledgements at this council.
00:03:43.280They've said, furthermore, that it cannot be discussed, right?
00:03:49.740There is no opportunity for me to discuss or challenge this or have any substantive engagement on the issue at all.
00:04:00.420It's really to align with the board's commitment to truth and reconciliation.
00:04:04.180So that's really, essentially, the board just told me no.
00:04:08.320Now, this is a process I had engaged in for quite some time.
00:04:11.500Since early 2025, I started trying to discuss with the school council chair, the principal, and, of course, now a board-level equity advisor or something.
00:04:28.720That was the person who said it can't be discussed.
00:04:31.640Okay, so I'm going to quote from the legal challenge.
00:04:34.700It says that this is in communication from the school board.
00:04:39.680And I don't think we know who this was at this point, but anyway.
00:04:42.140So it says, conversations are actions that question the validity of equity-focused initiatives, including those designed to support historically and currently marginalized groups, risk undermining the dignity of members of our community.
00:04:56.300Right, so we don't want to question any of our equity-focused initiatives, is what they're saying.
00:05:02.340The WRDSB commitment to equity and human rights means that certain topics, certain topics, particularly those that diminish or delegitimize the experience of equity-deserving groups, must be approached with care and alignment with Ontario's human rights code.
00:05:17.300So they are saying, we're not going to discuss this.
00:05:21.740Like, if you want to talk about indigenous issues, we're just not going to talk about this.
00:05:28.360And this came up very early in my discussions with the chair in early 2025, that discussions about land acknowledgements could be a violation of the Human Rights Code.
00:05:43.120And so at that point, I think one of the points I brought up to the chair is, I think it would be appropriate for parents to know ahead of time what topics are potential violations of the law.
00:05:55.360I don't think it's fair that we have these invisible tripwires that we wouldn't know about.
00:06:00.580I think there should be some place where they're listed.
00:06:03.740Right, and of course they can't do that.
00:06:06.680Well, that would basically be saying that, they're saying it, okay, so we'll use different language.
00:06:19.720But the idea is that you should be able to discuss and question elements about a law because that's the process of democracy, right?
00:06:27.940So we should be able to question policies because perhaps those policies are wrong or maybe there's some issues with it.
00:06:33.440But what they're saying here is they're not saying that it's a question you can't even discuss the policy or the law, right?
00:06:42.680So that's kind of what they're saying, which is very, very interesting that this particular school board is so upfront and honest about that that's what they're doing.
00:06:53.680But part of this legal challenge, the thing that I actually found the most interesting and I think could have broader implications, not just for land acknowledgments, whether you agree with land acknowledgments or not,
00:07:04.820this is on the basis of your freedom of conscience.
00:07:09.780And that's interesting because a lot of times when we're talking about school boards and people objecting to some of these, I guess, we'll just call them walk policies.
00:07:18.600They tend to be on the basis of religion, like freedom of religion.
00:07:22.280But we forget that we also have freedom of conscience within the charter.
00:07:27.980Well, it's really because for me, it was just a clear matter of conscience.
00:07:36.320I have very strong beliefs, first of all, that we should be able to discuss things.
00:07:42.300The acknowledgments themselves are somewhat secondary, but I do object to the acknowledgments on the basis that this is singling out a particular ethno-sectarian group for special consideration.
00:07:55.980I don't think this is helpful to be spending time talking about a certain group in a very sacred way, right?
00:08:03.940I think these are very religious statements, particularly the way they're done.
00:09:06.900So really, back to the conscience, it really is just the fact that I'm sort of being forced to sit through this and make it appear as though I consent.
00:09:17.060Yeah, but if also people are being told that they're not allowed to even discuss certain topics that come under the umbrella of equity-deserving groups or equity initiatives.
00:09:27.020If council members or community members are told this, they might not even express that they agree with other people who disagree, shall we say?
00:11:44.700And then the meeting that I attended back in late November, all of a sudden, oh, we don't want to put down that the director said anything.
00:11:52.820We want to definitely get away from that.
00:11:55.420And it seems to me that the change in attitude between those two meetings might be a reflection on some of the conversations
00:12:02.000that you were having behind the scenes with the school board and the JCCF.
00:14:57.140Because I don't know who advises the board on these acknowledgements.
00:15:04.080One thing that's interesting, at the meeting, a board meeting recently, I think in September,
00:15:11.300the Waterloo Region District School Board, the chair opened the meeting in a way that I'd never seen before.
00:15:18.060It was very extended, very sacred-sounding, talking about Indigenous sovereignty and Turtle Island.
00:15:28.660And then last night I attended a town hall, not a town hall, but it was the board was promoting it that way.
00:15:35.520And it was discussing the strategic plan that they've got, and front and centre, it talked about Indigenous sovereignty.
00:15:43.060So, maybe this is something that activists have infused, you know, the consultants, and perhaps that's one explanation is that they think this may have some legal advantage to some of these settlements.
00:15:57.240I don't know. I hadn't thought of that before.
00:15:59.260Yeah, that's probably a bit of an unfair question, because obviously this has nothing to do with your particular legal challenge, right?
00:16:04.500I was curious to talk about one other thing, and that's why this is important that it's happening at school councils, or parent councils, and parent involvement committees.
00:16:16.220Now, my understanding is that these particular groups, whether it's parent involvement committee or parent council, which are similar but not quite the same thing,
00:16:24.120that they are governed by parents, and although they are there to advise the board, they should not be governed by the board.
00:16:31.740This is why it matters that, say, the principal in Hamilton got involved, and the director of education in Waterloo got involved,
00:16:38.280because they shouldn't be getting involved in parent-led governance, but they did in these particular cases.
00:16:45.840Would you like to maybe talk a little bit about how it's important for parents to understand that they're the ones in charge of these particular groups, right?
00:16:55.920When we hear right now about how the Minister of Education is creating these parent organizations, I can't remember what they are off the top of my head,
00:17:02.940but within the board, there's these groups, and they're supposed to help parents, and so on and so forth, and that's great.
00:17:08.300But also, parent council is supposed to be for parents.
00:17:11.400It's supposed to be led by parents, governed by parents, and the communication between parents and the board.
00:17:15.680Yeah, and the parent involvement council, this PIC, is a little different than the school councils.
00:17:22.680I think the school councils have a little more independence, whereas PIC is a board group of parent volunteers to kind of help with parent involvement.
00:17:31.940But this, my case, involves the school councils, and these councils are arm's length, and in the statute, it's quite clear that one of the roles is to hold the board accountable,
00:17:44.420and the schools accountable to parents, right, so that we can help improve student outcomes and well-being, right?
00:17:52.780So I've always viewed my role on these councils as an accountability role, that it's very important that this is, I don't know how else,
00:18:03.700you try to bring, you want to make change in the school and the direction of education, you have concerns,
00:18:08.160you can bring them to council and try to discuss them.
00:18:11.320In practice, I've never seen the councils functioning that way.
00:18:15.000I've been on three different councils, and they always appear to be quite driven by the principal, quite controlled, and in line with board priorities.
00:18:29.060The chair often seems to be very friendly with the principal, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's almost a deferential relationship.
00:18:40.000I feel that the chair is kind of listening to what the principal says.
00:18:44.800There's not a lot of, I've never been able to have really what I consider to be important educational topics discussed at council.
00:18:53.620It'll be the time is taken up, you know, after an extensive land acknowledgement, there's going to be, you know, a presentation about our advising group,
00:19:02.160or, you know, the students will talk about what they're doing.
00:19:04.820It's all feel-good type of stuff, you know, long presentations about a particular programming at the school, you know, fine,
00:19:12.720but it's never been a place where, here's my concern about how we now don't have grade 11 English.
00:19:20.000It's more, again, being politically infused.
00:19:22.220We've never been able to have discussions about CRRP or any sort of these critical race theory issues.
00:19:29.840But technically, that should be the place where you should have a voice as a parent to discuss concerns.
00:19:35.360You would think, but I think a lot of, even the parents seem to be quite deferential.
00:19:42.360I feel that there's, and maybe this is a broader cultural problem in our country,
00:19:46.840is that we very much look to government for answers, and we're very like, oh, is that okay if I do this?
00:19:53.480It's, people don't, I don't think they've read the Education Act or understand what their rights are, what their role is.
00:19:58.980They seem to just show up, and the principal sets the agenda and kind of runs things with the chair,
00:20:04.700and they just kind of ask, oh, can I do this?
00:20:08.080So, I think that's a more serious systemic cultural problem.
00:20:13.520Yeah, so you're a parent who's definitely been at the forefront with some other parents as well in different school boards,
00:20:18.680but there's certainly some parents who are less afraid of, or who are more willing to push what the established zeitgeist is in the education system.
00:20:28.020But would you have any advice for parents who might be concerned about some of these things going on in schools and what they can do?
00:20:34.840Yeah, I would say you have, you can talk about it, and in fact, you should insist upon it.
00:20:40.580And I think, you know, it's a good idea to talk to your teacher and your principal.
00:20:44.540Usually, principals are very good about having a discussion.
00:20:47.200You know, I had a nice, long conversation with my principal, and I think that's important.
00:20:50.900But I think the most important thing is to connect to parents, to other parents.
00:20:55.320And you're not going to do that through official channels with the board.
00:20:59.000I've tried that, and they're very good at keeping you isolated.
00:21:01.580They really don't want you talking and getting together and organizing.
00:21:29.900It doesn't make sense, but no one else is talking about it.
00:21:32.780Well, I haven't really thought about it.
00:21:34.020Well, I will say that in your area, there has been some success, specifically with land acknowledgments.
00:21:39.380I believe one of the members of Empower, Cristina Bayros Fernandez, at her school council was able to remove the land acknowledgement from parent council.
00:21:49.540So, I mean, these things can be successful.
00:22:34.380You know, it's deeply important to them.
00:22:36.300But also, if you don't have those discussions, if you don't talk about it, you can't come to an arrangement where everybody feels that they're happy with what's happening.
00:23:18.660Well, thank you so much for having me, Melanie.
00:23:20.220That's it for today's episode of Disrupted.
00:23:22.160This story is definitely a reminder that parents can speak up, even when school boards or the media try to shame or silence or discredit you or tell you that you're not allowed to talk about things.
00:23:35.240Talking about tough topics takes courage, I know, and it can be difficult.
00:23:39.840But that's how we hold public institutions accountable.