In this episode, Conservative MP Preston Manning joins us to talk about his vision for the future of the Conservative Party of Canada and what it means to be a true Conservative. He also talks about the role of the Manning Centre and why he believes it's important to see the Conservative movement as a separate entity from the Conservative party.
00:00:00.000If you've been following our coverage of the Manning Conference, the name you'll no doubt be familiar with is that of the founder of the Manning Centre and also a tremendously influential figure in Canadian politics, Preston Manning, who joins me now. Preston, thank you for having us here and thank you for being with me today.
00:00:19.400Thank you. So let's talk about one of the big themes that's come up throughout your remarks and that of a lot of the speakers at the conference this year and that has been about looking at the Conservative movement as almost a separate entity from the Conservative Party and I think that's so tremendously valuable and one of the things that I've really admired about you and the Manning Centre for several years, but for people that aren't as familiar with the concept, that view Conservatism as synonymous with the Conservative Party of Canada, how important is that?
00:00:48.880And how do you really define what you've tried to approach for the movement?
00:00:52.140Well, I think it is important and I use a sort of a triangle model to try to explain it. I say that at the tip of the triangle is the Conservative political parties. They're the retail end of Conservatism that goes out and fights elections. In fact, increasingly, the modern political party, that's virtually all it does. It fights elections and it gets ready for the next election.
00:01:12.040But beneath that top of the pyramid, there's a whole bunch of other institutions, the think tanks that develop intellectual capital, the advocacy groups that promote it, the communicators, the mentors and trainers that train people to provide training for political action, the donors, the philanthropists, the people that – there's that huge amount underneath that develop the intellectual capital, the human capital, the financial capital that the parties need to succeed.
00:01:42.020So they're connected. And our Manning Centre is more involved in trying to develop the – or coordinate, to be a better word – coordinate the activities, the movement as distinct for the parties so that at the end of the day, the parties can be more successful.
00:01:55.380How much of a challenge is it to make sure that Conservative values with a small c remain at the centre of what Conservative parties across the country are standing up for?
00:02:05.380Well, I think it's a challenge that has to be constantly addressed. Conservatives, more than, say, Liberals or Social Democrats, tend to be in silos. The Conservative provincial parties don't do much together.
00:02:21.380There's a distant relationship with the Federal party. The Conservative think tanks don't do a lot collectively. There's a fear of losing donors if you do too much collectively.
00:02:29.380And so one of our big functions and our bigger function going forward is just networking. Try to rub these components of the movement together better.
00:02:39.380And I think the more you do that, the more you get a consistent message and a consistent adherence to principles.
00:02:45.380When people are in silos, it's easy to get, you know, kind of distracted one way or the other.
00:02:51.380Going back to, let's say, Pierre Trudeau, the Trudeau of the Seniors era, and you have the trajectory of Canadian politics since then, the creation of the Reform Party, the evolution to the Alliance, uniting to become the Conservative Party of Canada.
00:03:06.380Do you see the movement now as in a better place than it was 30, 40, 50 years ago?
00:03:12.380Oh, I think so. I think there are far more Conservative think tanks. There are far more advocacy vehicles.
00:03:18.380With the advent of the social media, there is more communications capacity. I see that vastly expanding.
00:03:26.380Now, of course, while it's expanded on the Conservative side, the movements behind Liberalism and Social Democratic positions has expanded too.
00:03:35.380So, but I see a great change from those days.
00:03:39.380But at the same time, we also have to look at some of these institutional changes.
00:03:43.380And I think that when it comes to bringing the Conservative representative party at the federal level to become more Conservative, you were necessary for that, as we saw.
00:03:53.380Now we have a dynamic in Canadian politics that some have tried to compare to that, Maxime Bernier splitting off to found the People's Party of Canada.
00:04:02.380And are the circumstances of this split of the right, or attempted split of the right, different than when you did it?
00:04:09.380Well, no, I think they're part of a pattern, but a different pattern than the one you're referring to.
00:04:14.380What Maxime has done has been done at least four times before, always in Quebec.
00:04:19.380In the years during the Second World War, there was a bloc populaire that was created in Quebec.
00:04:25.380A Liberal MP disagreed with what his party was doing on conscription, went and formed a new party, campaigned in the election, won three or four seats.
00:04:33.380It didn't change anything much, but it made that a bigger issue.
00:04:36.380In the Social Credit days, there was the Rally Monde Creditiste.
00:04:40.380Real Coet lost the leadership bid for the Social Credit party, went and started a new party in Quebec.
00:04:47.380The Rally Monde Creditiste got a few seats, actually took votes from the Liberals, in fact denied the Liberals.
00:04:54.380That's why Pearson never got a majority.
00:04:56.380And then, of course, you had Lucien Bouchard broke with Brian Mulroney, a guy from Quebec, disagreed with where they were going.
00:05:02.380It created a party that created a huge disruption.
00:05:06.380And now I see what Maxime's doing is in that tradition.
00:05:10.380And it can have an effect. It can clarify a particular issue.
00:05:14.380Three out of the four of these were basically unsuccessful attempts.
00:05:17.380They didn't have much of an impact other than a blip on the radar screen.
00:05:21.380So I would say what's being done there is sort of fundamentally different than what reformed it.
00:05:28.380So you don't see this as the beginning of a Reform 2.0 by any stretch?
00:05:32.380No, I see it more as in that pattern of Quebec politicians who disagree with a result of a national thing and go and form a new party as a result.
00:05:41.380Well, that actually brings up an important question in that Quebec has always been a weak spot for Conservatives.
00:05:46.380I know Stephen Harper had some marginal success there in one of his elections, but even then it got wiped away as quickly as it was there.
00:05:54.380Do you think that's going to be a permanent reality or do you think it's possible to have a national federal Conservative Party that can have success in Quebec?
00:06:02.380Well, I think one of the dangers for Quebec, if I was thinking as a Quebecer, not as someone from the West, is that in the future in the 21st century, it will be possible to form a national government without winning a single seat in Quebec.
00:06:19.380And I worry about that. And some people may say, well, you're probably glad as that because you're from, but no, the reason I'm not glad is that I remember when the West was exactly in that position.
00:06:31.380You could form a national government without getting a single seat west of the Manitoba-Ontario border. And it's not a good position to be in. It's a weak position to be in.
00:06:40.380And I think what that reality means for Quebecers is it'll be more important in the future for Quebec to have allies outside Quebec to compensate for that position.
00:06:51.380And I would say that the place you'll find those allies is in the West, because both of us want a more decentralized, better nation.
00:06:58.380And we remember what it was like when you couldn't influence the national government.
00:07:03.100Yeah. And one area where I think there is a possible coalition between Quebec voters and national conservative voters is on immigration issues.
00:07:11.580Now, I mean, the things you see in Quebec in the immigration discourse, no non-Quebec politician can get away with saying it in some respects.
00:07:18.700But I think that we've now brought, I think in this election cycle, immigration is going to be front and center.
00:07:24.040I know it's been a topic of discussion this weekend in which I've played a role on the panel.
00:07:28.800But do you think that is going to be a winning coalition?
00:07:31.800Well, I think that could be an issue on which people could get together.
00:07:35.840I think one of the assets that Andrew Scheer brings, and I don't know how one would communicate this in a campaign,
00:07:44.920because it's an asset that comes about because of what he is not, not because of what he is.
00:07:52.960Andrew's the only leader I know of, and even historically, that was speaker for a considerable period of time before he became leader.
00:08:01.100Usually the speaker is some older guy that they couldn't put in the cabinet.
00:08:03.940The person that has no real partisan ambitions often.
00:08:06.600Well, they couldn't put in the cabinet, so they could be speaker.
00:08:08.960But he was a young guy, and he was speaker.
00:08:11.140And, of course, the speaker has to be more ecumenical.
00:08:14.900The speaker has to work with everybody else.
00:08:16.900And I think Andrew is not a polarizer.
00:12:34.740You've got social and fiscal conservatives that don't get along.
00:12:37.580You have libertarians and others as well.
00:12:40.320And I'm guessing, to end on, a good point would be,
00:12:45.400are you optimistic that conservatism itself will be able to hold in Canada or in the West more broadly as a big tent?
00:12:53.720Yes, I think if it gets leadership, it requires that it attaches a high priority to that coordination of the different components of the movement.
00:13:05.260I think it also depends on whether conservatives are willing to engage in constructive discourse.
00:13:09.960You're always going to have these differences, and it's legitimate.
00:13:13.500And they're not new differences either.
00:13:16.040It's just the manner in which the discourse is conducted, though, if I insult you and punch you on my way out of the room here, that's not conducive.
00:13:23.280If we have a disagreement, and we're honest, I respect you, but I disagree with you, and you respect me, and I disagree, then I think you can hold the things together.
00:13:32.860And then somebody told me the definition of a Canadian optimist, and I'm an optimist, is someone who thinks things could be worse.