Juno News - Andrew Lawton and Preston Manning discuss state of conservative movement

00:00:00.000 If you've been following our coverage of the Manning Conference, the name you'll no doubt be familiar with is that of the founder of the Manning Centre and also a tremendously influential figure in Canadian politics, Preston Manning, who joins me now. Preston, thank you for having us here and thank you for being with me today.

00:00:19.400 Thank you. So let's talk about one of the big themes that's come up throughout your remarks and that of a lot of the speakers at the conference this year and that has been about looking at the Conservative movement as almost a separate entity from the Conservative Party and I think that's so tremendously valuable and one of the things that I've really admired about you and the Manning Centre for several years, but for people that aren't as familiar with the concept, that view Conservatism as synonymous with the Conservative Party of Canada, how important is that?

00:00:48.880 And how do you really define what you've tried to approach for the movement?

00:00:52.140 Well, I think it is important and I use a sort of a triangle model to try to explain it. I say that at the tip of the triangle is the Conservative political parties. They're the retail end of Conservatism that goes out and fights elections. In fact, increasingly, the modern political party, that's virtually all it does. It fights elections and it gets ready for the next election.

00:01:12.040 But beneath that top of the pyramid, there's a whole bunch of other institutions, the think tanks that develop intellectual capital, the advocacy groups that promote it, the communicators, the mentors and trainers that train people to provide training for political action, the donors, the philanthropists, the people that – there's that huge amount underneath that develop the intellectual capital, the human capital, the financial capital that the parties need to succeed.

00:01:42.020 So they're connected. And our Manning Centre is more involved in trying to develop the – or coordinate, to be a better word – coordinate the activities, the movement as distinct for the parties so that at the end of the day, the parties can be more successful.

00:01:55.380 How much of a challenge is it to make sure that Conservative values with a small c remain at the centre of what Conservative parties across the country are standing up for?

00:02:05.380 Well, I think it's a challenge that has to be constantly addressed. Conservatives, more than, say, Liberals or Social Democrats, tend to be in silos. The Conservative provincial parties don't do much together.

00:02:21.380 There's a distant relationship with the Federal party. The Conservative think tanks don't do a lot collectively. There's a fear of losing donors if you do too much collectively.

00:02:29.380 And so one of our big functions and our bigger function going forward is just networking. Try to rub these components of the movement together better.

00:02:39.380 And I think the more you do that, the more you get a consistent message and a consistent adherence to principles.

00:02:45.380 When people are in silos, it's easy to get, you know, kind of distracted one way or the other.

00:02:51.380 Going back to, let's say, Pierre Trudeau, the Trudeau of the Seniors era, and you have the trajectory of Canadian politics since then, the creation of the Reform Party, the evolution to the Alliance, uniting to become the Conservative Party of Canada.

00:03:06.380 Do you see the movement now as in a better place than it was 30, 40, 50 years ago?

00:03:12.380 Oh, I think so. I think there are far more Conservative think tanks. There are far more advocacy vehicles.

00:03:18.380 With the advent of the social media, there is more communications capacity. I see that vastly expanding.

00:03:26.380 Now, of course, while it's expanded on the Conservative side, the movements behind Liberalism and Social Democratic positions has expanded too.

00:03:35.380 So, but I see a great change from those days.

00:03:39.380 But at the same time, we also have to look at some of these institutional changes.

00:03:43.380 And I think that when it comes to bringing the Conservative representative party at the federal level to become more Conservative, you were necessary for that, as we saw.

00:03:53.380 Now we have a dynamic in Canadian politics that some have tried to compare to that, Maxime Bernier splitting off to found the People's Party of Canada.

00:04:02.380 And are the circumstances of this split of the right, or attempted split of the right, different than when you did it?

00:04:08.380 And if so, how?

00:04:09.380 Well, no, I think they're part of a pattern, but a different pattern than the one you're referring to.

00:04:14.380 What Maxime has done has been done at least four times before, always in Quebec.

00:04:19.380 In the years during the Second World War, there was a bloc populaire that was created in Quebec.

00:04:25.380 A Liberal MP disagreed with what his party was doing on conscription, went and formed a new party, campaigned in the election, won three or four seats.

00:04:33.380 It didn't change anything much, but it made that a bigger issue.

00:04:36.380 In the Social Credit days, there was the Rally Monde Creditiste.

00:04:40.380 Real Coet lost the leadership bid for the Social Credit party, went and started a new party in Quebec.

00:04:47.380 The Rally Monde Creditiste got a few seats, actually took votes from the Liberals, in fact denied the Liberals.

00:04:54.380 That's why Pearson never got a majority.

00:04:56.380 And then, of course, you had Lucien Bouchard broke with Brian Mulroney, a guy from Quebec, disagreed with where they were going.

00:05:02.380 It created a party that created a huge disruption.

00:05:06.380 And now I see what Maxime's doing is in that tradition.

00:05:10.380 And it can have an effect. It can clarify a particular issue.

00:05:14.380 Three out of the four of these were basically unsuccessful attempts.

00:05:17.380 They didn't have much of an impact other than a blip on the radar screen.

00:05:21.380 So I would say what's being done there is sort of fundamentally different than what reformed it.

00:05:28.380 So you don't see this as the beginning of a Reform 2.0 by any stretch?

00:05:31.380 No, by any stretch.

00:05:32.380 No, I see it more as in that pattern of Quebec politicians who disagree with a result of a national thing and go and form a new party as a result.

00:05:41.380 Well, that actually brings up an important question in that Quebec has always been a weak spot for Conservatives.

00:05:46.380 I know Stephen Harper had some marginal success there in one of his elections, but even then it got wiped away as quickly as it was there.

00:05:54.380 Do you think that's going to be a permanent reality or do you think it's possible to have a national federal Conservative Party that can have success in Quebec?

00:06:02.380 Well, I think one of the dangers for Quebec, if I was thinking as a Quebecer, not as someone from the West, is that in the future in the 21st century, it will be possible to form a national government without winning a single seat in Quebec.

00:06:19.380 And I worry about that. And some people may say, well, you're probably glad as that because you're from, but no, the reason I'm not glad is that I remember when the West was exactly in that position.

00:06:31.380 You could form a national government without getting a single seat west of the Manitoba-Ontario border. And it's not a good position to be in. It's a weak position to be in.

00:06:40.380 And I think what that reality means for Quebecers is it'll be more important in the future for Quebec to have allies outside Quebec to compensate for that position.

00:06:51.380 And I would say that the place you'll find those allies is in the West, because both of us want a more decentralized, better nation.

00:06:58.380 And we remember what it was like when you couldn't influence the national government.

00:07:03.100 Yeah. And one area where I think there is a possible coalition between Quebec voters and national conservative voters is on immigration issues.

00:07:11.580 Now, I mean, the things you see in Quebec in the immigration discourse, no non-Quebec politician can get away with saying it in some respects.

00:07:18.700 But I think that we've now brought, I think in this election cycle, immigration is going to be front and center.

00:07:24.040 I know it's been a topic of discussion this weekend in which I've played a role on the panel.

00:07:28.800 But do you think that is going to be a winning coalition?

00:07:31.800 Well, I think that could be an issue on which people could get together.

00:07:35.840 I think one of the assets that Andrew Scheer brings, and I don't know how one would communicate this in a campaign,

00:07:44.920 because it's an asset that comes about because of what he is not, not because of what he is.

00:07:52.960 Andrew's the only leader I know of, and even historically, that was speaker for a considerable period of time before he became leader.

00:08:01.100 Usually the speaker is some older guy that they couldn't put in the cabinet.

00:08:03.940 The person that has no real partisan ambitions often.

00:08:06.600 Well, they couldn't put in the cabinet, so they could be speaker.

00:08:08.960 But he was a young guy, and he was speaker.

00:08:11.140 And, of course, the speaker has to be more ecumenical.

00:08:14.900 The speaker has to work with everybody else.

00:08:16.900 And I think Andrew is not a polarizer.

00:08:20.540 No.

00:08:20.860 He is not a polarizer.

00:08:22.320 And more and more people are getting worried.

00:08:24.000 A lot of the discussions today is politics, getting everybody gets in their separate camp.

00:08:28.960 And people worry about, if you're really worried about polarization,

00:08:32.840 Andrew brings that quality of not being a polarizer.

00:08:36.720 He's actually a consensus builder.

00:08:38.080 And I think that could be a very strong point in his favor when coming to this as a federal election campaign.

00:08:46.040 What is the point, if such a thing even exists, where you'll be able to say,

00:08:50.200 I've done my work, I'm finished, I'm out, I'm retired?

00:08:52.860 And it's not about you personally, but even the Manning Center itself.

00:08:56.040 Or do you think there's always going to be some battle for the conservative movement to embrace?

00:08:59.600 Well, yeah, there's the battle end of it.

00:09:02.060 But I think this integrating and networking and communicating is just an ongoing,

00:09:07.360 if conservatism is sort of a living organism, this networking and communicating,

00:09:12.440 that has to go on forever and forever and forever.

00:09:14.820 And the left learned that very soon and very quickly before conservatives did, I'd say.

00:09:19.000 Oh, yes.

00:09:19.420 And if you have a collectivist mentality, for example, it makes it...

00:09:22.600 How do you hurt individualists, right?

00:09:24.300 That's the conservative dilemma.

00:09:25.520 Well, you know, it's the NDP in this last provincial election in Ontario.

00:09:28.440 There were labor organizers from Halifax to Vancouver spending time in the Ontario election.

00:09:34.200 Conservatives don't do that.

00:09:35.660 So whether it's done under the Manning Center Foundation or not is not the real question.

00:09:40.280 The conservatism needs this network and this constant network and communication to be more effective.

00:09:44.920 And somebody has to do it.

00:09:45.860 We're doing it now.

00:09:46.740 So where do you see, as far as the state of conservatism goes,

00:09:51.860 what's something that you didn't really have to deal with back in the 80s

00:09:56.880 that wasn't really a fight for conservatives but now is, that you think people need to embrace?

00:10:00.380 Well, I think, well, two things.

00:10:01.840 One is this whole use of the social media and how it relates to politics.

00:10:05.380 It was just coming in at the time I was involved.

00:10:08.040 Now it's a huge thing.

00:10:09.780 But the other huge thing, and I think this is on the international sphere,

00:10:13.480 I think the big ideological contest of the 21st century is going to be citizen-directed democracy

00:10:21.240 versus state-directed governance as practiced and promoted by the Communist Party and government of China

00:10:28.480 and market-driven capitalism versus state-directed capitalism as practiced by the Communist Party and government of China.

00:10:37.680 I think that's the huge ideological battle of the future.

00:10:41.220 And conservatives ought to be and are, not just conservatives, on the side of citizen-directed democracy,

00:10:48.980 but it'll be conservatives that will champion market-driven capitalism as opposed to state capitalism.

00:10:55.140 And I think that's a huge challenge for the next generation.

00:10:58.380 When you say citizen-driven, are you describing populism or something distinct from populism?

00:11:03.120 Well, I would include populism.

00:11:04.720 No, but I'm talking about something different than that.

00:11:07.220 The Communist version is that the state ultimately is the best one to guard the governance system,

00:11:16.300 that the authority and the legitimacy of the political system comes from on high,

00:11:22.120 in their case from a dictatorship.

00:11:24.420 The Western view is not confined to Canada.

00:11:28.220 But ultimately, it comes from the bottom.

00:11:33.500 I like, I've been a fan of Jefferson's, and one of the things he wrote towards the end of his life,

00:11:42.300 and in a way, if there ever was an elite, legitimate member of an elite, it was Jefferson.

00:11:48.060 But he said, I can think of no safer depository for the ultimate powers of society than in the people themselves.

00:11:55.960 And then anticipating the objection, but the people, they don't know anything. 1.00

00:11:59.100 They're ignorant. 0.99

00:11:59.760 They'll go chasing after somebody. 0.99

00:12:01.720 He said, and if you think them not fit to exercise self-government with a wholesome discretion,

00:12:06.700 the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion.

00:12:10.540 That's a pretty good definition of the democratic challenge,

00:12:14.980 and I think it's one that's a constant challenge in every generation.

00:12:19.460 In the United States, we saw a fairly significant schism form, I think, in the American right because of Donald Trump,

00:12:27.040 and a lot of divides, not just on him personally, but on policy.

00:12:31.200 You've got very protectionist conservatives.

00:12:33.360 You've got free trade conservatives.

00:12:34.740 You've got social and fiscal conservatives that don't get along.

00:12:37.580 You have libertarians and others as well.

00:12:40.320 And I'm guessing, to end on, a good point would be,

00:12:45.400 are you optimistic that conservatism itself will be able to hold in Canada or in the West more broadly as a big tent?

00:12:53.720 Yes, I think if it gets leadership, it requires that it attaches a high priority to that coordination of the different components of the movement.

00:13:05.260 I think it also depends on whether conservatives are willing to engage in constructive discourse.

00:13:09.960 You're always going to have these differences, and it's legitimate.

00:13:13.500 And they're not new differences either.

00:13:14.920 No, and it's legitimate to have them.

00:13:16.040 It's just the manner in which the discourse is conducted, though, if I insult you and punch you on my way out of the room here, that's not conducive.

00:13:23.280 If we have a disagreement, and we're honest, I respect you, but I disagree with you, and you respect me, and I disagree, then I think you can hold the things together.

00:13:32.860 And then somebody told me the definition of a Canadian optimist, and I'm an optimist, is someone who thinks things could be worse.

00:13:39.640 There we go.

00:13:41.540 Well, we'll keep the cameras rolling just in case you do throw a punch, but I think that's a great way of doing things.

00:13:47.100 Preston Manning, I've been a big fan of the work you've done and your legacy at the conference and also in Canadian politics.

00:13:52.900 So thank you very much for your time.

00:13:54.060 Okay, well, thank you.

00:13:54.500 Thank you.

00:13:54.940 Preston Manning.

00:13:55.100 Thank you.

00:13:55.180 Thank you.

00:13:56.100 Thank you.

00:13:57.100 Thank you.

00:13:58.100 Thank you.

00:13:59.100 Thank you.

00:14:01.100 Thank you.

00:14:03.100 Thank you.

00:14:05.100 Thank you.

00:14:07.100 Thank you.

Juno News - March 25, 2019

Andrew Lawton and Preston Manning discuss state of conservative movement

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