Juno News - April 18, 2020


Andrew Scheer on Trudeau, China and the WHO

Topics
relief measures and accountability China's data reliability
Mentioned
Andrew Scheer Andrew Lawton Show Justin Trudeau Robert Mugabe Patty Haydew Theresa Tam Goodwill Haiji
Rules For Thee, Not For Me Reopening the economy is not a partisan issue

Episode Stats


Length

16 minutes

Words per minute

185.47

Word count

3,043

Sentence count

174

Harmful content

Toxicity

2

sentences flagged

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Andrew Scheer, leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, joins me on the phone from Ottawa to talk about the opioid crisis and the government's response to it. He also talks about the need for more parliamentary oversight and accountability.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:06.520 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:00:08.900 Certainly, we've been doing our part to hold the government to account throughout this crisis and beyond the crisis as well.
00:00:14.740 But the person who has the official task at hand of doing that is Andrew Scheer, the leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, leader of the Conservative Party of Canada.
00:00:23.680 He joins me on the line now from Ottawa.
00:00:26.040 Mr. Scheer, good to talk to you again.
00:00:27.340 Thanks for coming on the show.
00:00:28.360 My pleasure.
00:00:29.080 Thanks for the invitation.
00:00:30.000 So let's talk first off about what your role is here, because I think there's a lot of, I'll say, concern from people that whenever you criticize the government,
00:00:39.960 you're violating what the government has established and what you've established as being that Team Canada spirit.
00:00:47.340 Well, of course, in a crisis like this, when Canadians want to see their institutions work and they want to see collaboration and people put aside differences,
00:00:56.760 of course, of course, the nature of the opposition has changed as well.
00:01:00.520 We're keeping our focus on the health crisis, on the pandemic, the economic fallout from that.
00:01:06.400 But that doesn't mean that it's not healthy to be challenged or to be corrected.
00:01:10.560 We've had a number of examples where the Liberals have announced a program, major shortcomings and gaps.
00:01:17.240 We've called for action.
00:01:18.560 We've raised our voice, represented people who are falling through those cracks, and we've seen the government amend their approach.
00:01:25.360 So it's still essential.
00:01:27.780 It's not just healthy.
00:01:28.700 It's essential in a democracy to have the government being challenged and held to account to make sure that they get it right.
00:01:34.440 Let's talk about how they're not doing that, in your view, because one of the big problems I've been seeing and talking,
00:01:41.820 especially to small business owners, is that all of these relief measures that have come out,
00:01:46.000 whether it's the emergency response benefit, the wage subsidy, the emergency business account,
00:01:51.020 for starters, the graduation of this.
00:01:54.200 It's not all been about here's a program, apply for it.
00:01:57.600 Every step of the way, it seems like the programs needed to be rejigged and revamped.
00:02:01.560 But even still, with every one of these changes, there are huge swaths of Canadians,
00:02:07.380 sole proprietors in particular, that seem to be excluded from these programs.
00:02:11.000 And I know that you're in a bit of a tricky situation in that you're in an opposition role,
00:02:15.980 so you can ask the government to change it, and you can vote against stuff theoretically when Parliament is sitting.
00:02:21.840 But what's your read on this?
00:02:23.620 I mean, do you think that there are too many Canadians that are in between these programs?
00:02:28.720 For sure.
00:02:29.480 And one of our frustrations is that the government makes an announcement.
00:02:35.780 We start pointing out gaps.
00:02:37.780 They say, well, we'll look at that.
00:02:39.260 And then a week or two later, they make the changes.
00:02:41.560 What we'd like them to do is to show us their legislation, show us their programs.
00:02:45.820 While it's still in the design phase, we, and I'm not just talking about conservative MPs,
00:02:51.400 every single MP is hearing from small business owners, contractors, owner-operators,
00:02:57.620 and they're getting that feedback in real time, saying, you know, my company's not eligible for that, or I'm not eligible for that.
00:03:04.180 While these programs are still being designed, members of Parliament are the best focus group there is when it comes to this type of thing,
00:03:10.700 because we're in our communities, we're hearing from people directly.
00:03:13.760 So we'd like to see them bring us in on the front end.
00:03:15.980 We believe that would provide more clarity.
00:03:18.320 And one of the toughest things right now is when you talk to people and they say, I haven't paid my rent this month.
00:03:23.220 We're halfway through.
00:03:24.820 I don't know what my landlord is going to do to me.
00:03:27.000 I don't know what I'm going to be eligible for.
00:03:29.340 I don't have any cash flow because I haven't had a customer in over 30 days.
00:03:33.020 The government tells me not to worry that more is coming, but my credit card's getting maxed out.
00:03:37.820 And I just, you know, like, it's a real, there's a real sense of urgency here.
00:03:41.180 And that's what we're going to continue to push for is getting it right the first time as much as possible.
00:03:46.000 One of the big things right now, of course, you and the Conservatives pushing for more parliamentary oversight,
00:03:51.800 having more sessions like the couple of emergency sessions we've had thus far
00:03:55.840 with a more pared down, bare bones caucus arrangement from all parties.
00:04:00.800 The concern that I have with this is that given it is taking so long to get it right
00:04:05.600 and multiple drafts, multiple revisions, does pushing for these sessions not prolong the gaps here
00:04:12.200 and ultimately make it more difficult for Canadians in need of these supports to access them?
00:04:17.840 Well, I actually believe it can have the opposite effect.
00:04:20.600 When you have regular question periods, when you have ministers in the chamber,
00:04:25.000 you're allowing for members of Parliament to get up on a Monday and say,
00:04:28.960 hey, I've got a letter here from a constituent who says that they're ineligible.
00:04:33.280 We need to do something about this.
00:04:35.240 They'll hear that in public.
00:04:37.020 They'll see the other MPs saying the same thing.
00:04:40.260 And throughout the week, they can come back with the fixes.
00:04:42.840 What's happening now is that there's very little ability to communicate directly with the ministers.
00:04:48.620 You know, we've had in the past month or so, we've had a few conference calls.
00:04:54.140 We've had a few appearances at committee here in the House.
00:04:58.500 So regular accountability sessions, I actually believe, will speed up the development process of these programs
00:05:04.860 and get them right the first time because the members of Parliament will be doing a lot of the work for the government.
00:05:09.960 We'll be identifying the gaps for them saying, hey, these are the types of people that need assistance here.
00:05:15.000 And that can help, on the front end, design these programs in a better way.
00:05:19.360 A couple of weeks ago, Health Minister Patti Haidu said her words,
00:05:23.500 no indication, unquote, that the numbers from China about the death toll and infection rate of COVID-19 there couldn't be trusted.
00:05:32.000 This morning, of course, we have acknowledgement from Wuhan that their numbers were wrong.
00:05:36.500 They've revised them and increased them by 50%.
00:05:39.220 So quite a significant correction here.
00:05:41.440 And still, when asked, Justin Trudeau would not address the lack of, really, reliability of China's numbers.
00:05:50.320 And that was at his Friday press conference.
00:05:52.220 Now, I know you have been very skeptical of China on this and on many things, and I think it's necessary in Canada. 1.00
00:05:58.360 But what do you make of it that the government, even when China admits its numbers were wrong,
00:06:03.080 still won't accept that China's data are anything less than trustworthy?
00:06:06.920 It is outrageous.
00:06:10.120 And I think the former ambassadors from Canada to China put it best when they said this is an embarrassing posture.
00:06:17.560 It's an embarrassing position for Canada to be more apologetic for the Chinese regime than the Chinese regime itself is.
00:06:25.020 But, you know, this is all part of Justin Trudeau's view.
00:06:30.220 You know, he admires the basic dictatorship of China.
00:06:32.660 He went to China seeking a free trade deal when our free trade with the U.S. was being threatened.
00:06:39.760 He, you know, he refuses to respond to the fact that there are two Canadians being held illegally.
00:06:45.600 China's put blocks on our exports of canola.
00:06:49.060 This government has yet to respond in any way.
00:06:51.000 I don't trust anything coming out of a communist government.
00:06:55.160 I don't trust anything that comes out of a government like the regime in China on anything.
00:07:01.720 Now we're making life and death decisions about how we're going to respond to the pandemic here.
00:07:06.460 And the source information is coming from China.
00:07:08.700 So I think it's time to ensure that our decisions are based on a more broad sources, sources of information much more broadly than just the WHO.
00:07:20.420 At this time, there are Canadian experts who have called for different action earlier.
00:07:25.220 The Canadian military intelligence report that warned us that this virus was going to be big.
00:07:30.000 So it's continuing, it's just very confusing, it's not confusing, it's outrageous, it's unacceptable for the government to continue to vouch for China.
00:07:39.680 Minister Haiji was asked specifically about the quality of the data.
00:07:43.920 She vouched for the government of China. 0.93
00:07:45.760 It's ridiculous.
00:07:46.240 Well, and that's ultimately been, I think, the stopgap here that a lot of people have said as well, the World Health Organization numbers, not China's numbers.
00:07:54.500 Well, when the World Health Organization is populating its data from the numbers received from China without question, we have to look at their reliability problem.
00:08:02.960 And I guess the question that I would put to you, Mr. Scheer, is if you were prime minister now, what would you do to re-evaluate that relationship, not just with China, but with the WHO?
00:08:12.920 Because there's been a lot of deference to them as an international body that right now I don't think squares up with where most people would say their credibility is.
00:08:22.520 Exactly.
00:08:23.140 And remember, this is the same agency that a few years ago hired Robert Mugabe to be the Goodwill Ambassador.
00:08:28.300 So these organizations, especially the ones that come through the United Nations, when we look at the types of countries that have so much influence at the United Nations and the institutions that are affiliated with it, they don't share our values.
00:08:43.440 They don't share our democratic principles.
00:08:45.780 We have to view things that come out of that with a great deal of skepticism. 0.94
00:08:49.640 And as you say, in the World Health Organization, data is populated by data from China, garbage in, garbage out. 1.00
00:08:56.140 You know, we have to have a healthier dose of skepticism when we're looking at that.
00:09:02.000 That's why when we have our domestic agencies, our military intelligence warning us, we have to give greater weight.
00:09:09.560 We have to take that more seriously when it's coming from our experts here that we can trust, that we know don't have a political agenda when they're providing raw data to officials.
00:09:19.360 And what I would like to see is this government ensure that Canadian officials at the WHO answer further actions.
00:09:26.280 Remember, it was a Canadian official in a press conference who pretended that he didn't hear a question about Taiwan, but whether or not Taiwan would be included in the WHO's efforts.
00:09:36.480 It's just absolutely bizarre to watch.
00:09:39.460 It was like something out of an old, you know, movie from the Soviet Union, pretending not to hear the question, pretending that there was difficulty on the connection, then moving on to the next question.
00:09:49.160 Why would a Canadian official act like that?
00:09:52.000 Are Canadian officials trying to protect the government of China?
00:09:55.720 Why not stand up for Taiwan and its need to have participation in the global fight against this pandemic?
00:10:02.760 So a lot of serious questions, and our government needs to be held accountable for their dependence on the WHO and their refusal to hold China accountable. 0.67
00:10:11.660 I think a lot of that brings us to skepticism that I think is growing with Dr. Theresa Tam as well.
00:10:16.760 And I think it's important to note that she's not a politician or at least not supposed to be a politician, but she does have a seat at the WHO.
00:10:24.140 She's been very linked to the WHO through a number of committees and other projects.
00:10:28.620 She's also the most vocal member of the Canadian government, apart from Justin Trudeau, I'd say, and Chrystia Freeland on matters of Canada's response to the coronavirus.
00:10:39.120 Do you think there is a conflict of interest there that this woman is beholden to the WHO as well as to Canada?
00:10:45.820 Well, we certainly want to get answers as to why there is so much contradictory information.
00:10:50.600 Early on, the recommendation from our own agencies here was not to impose travel restrictions.
00:10:59.240 Early on, the instructions from Dr. Tam was that not to wear masks.
00:11:04.160 So there certainly have been contradictory messages.
00:11:07.120 We need to look at how China has influence on many different types of institutions.
00:11:11.040 Obviously, the WHO is front and center right now.
00:11:13.380 Now, in addition to that, you know, there's been a lot of alarms raised about influencing universities.
00:11:21.680 There's been intelligence reports about how the government of China influences other types of civil society.
00:11:28.320 There's been warnings from countries like Australia about how they perceive the threat of influence from the government of China.
00:11:35.080 I think anytime you have Canadian officials that are wearing two hats or involved in two or three different organizations, we have to be very sure that there are accountability measures put in place.
00:11:44.900 I don't believe that we should let the government off the hook and let them pin all the blame on Dr. Tam here.
00:11:50.440 There needs to be common sense filters applied to things.
00:11:53.020 We had a shocking news story this week that the government, after the 2015 election, the Liberal government, dumped millions of pieces of personal equipment from the pandemic stockpile.
00:12:05.780 The previous Conservative government had built up this stockpile, regularly rotated, making sure that it was all up to date and none of it was expired.
00:12:13.520 This government cut by tens of millions of dollars, the budget for that, dumped material without replacing it.
00:12:19.920 So this is the same government that can find $50 million to give to MasterCard, $12 million to Loblaws.
00:12:26.140 But when it comes to making sure that we have enough masks and gowns and gloves in case of a pandemic, from the very department that is responsible for planning a pandemic, it's ridiculous and outrageous.
00:12:36.460 So I don't want this government to be able to scapegoat anybody.
00:12:39.900 They're the ones that didn't apply the common sense test to many of these decisions.
00:12:44.340 They need to be held accountable.
00:12:45.360 I just want to make sure I understand the point you made earlier in that response, though, Mr. Scheer.
00:12:49.820 Are you saying that the Canadian government or elements of the Canadian government are, in your view, under the influence of the Chinese government, of the Chinese regime?
00:12:57.740 What I'm saying is that there have been warnings from our security partners about how the government of China tries to influence civil society in Canada, try to influence the conversations about it.
00:13:09.900 Everything from news outlets in terms of some of the publications that have connections to mainland China.
00:13:24.720 So those are the types of things that we say, look, we have to take a look at our relationship with China.
00:13:29.580 This is a regime that has continually showed that it does not share our values.
00:13:34.660 It abuses human rights at home.
00:13:37.280 It has acknowledged that it has engaged in hacking exercises of other governments.
00:13:42.440 It is not being upfront and open and transparent in the middle of a health crisis.
00:13:46.660 Oh, and let's not forget, if we're holding two Canadians hostage.
00:13:50.500 So, you know, we've got Canadians literally being held illegally in China.
00:13:55.420 We've got all this body of evidence that they are not, you know, a trusted ally, not a trusted partner in so many of these things.
00:14:07.220 They're an important trading partner.
00:14:08.600 We need to have, we need to recognize that we can benefit from trade with them.
00:14:14.080 But I think it's time that we have a rethink of how much confidence and dependency this government seems to place in that regime.
00:14:21.840 One final question I have for you here.
00:14:24.380 Obviously, this has been a very different year than a lot of people, including the Conservative Party of Canada, thought it was going to be the leadership race put on hold here.
00:14:33.120 Does anything like that really change the decision that you had made to step down?
00:14:38.060 Or do you think that when the leadership race is restarted, if it is, there's going to be an entirely new scenario that might make you reevaluate your role in the Conservatives?
00:14:47.940 Well, you know, when I made the decision to step down, it really was because I could see the months ahead and the toll that the last three years had taken on my family.
00:14:59.240 And I knew I couldn't do both.
00:15:00.780 I couldn't be a good dad and a good leader of the opposition that was, you know, that would have been required to do all the things I had been doing for the past few years.
00:15:09.920 When I ran for the leadership the first time, I think many people did expect that it would probably take two elections back in 2015.
00:15:17.020 If you had to told Conservatives that we'd hold the Liberals to a minority in the next election, you know, that would have been seen very positively.
00:15:24.140 Obviously, expectations were raised and the party, while we did very well in many areas, fell short of our goal, which was to form the government.
00:15:33.340 I am very much at peace with the decision I've made.
00:15:36.560 I'm working very hard leading this caucus, making sure that we stay united and focused and ready to hand over the keys to the next leader in a position that will make sure that we can win the next election.
00:15:45.820 But I'm also really enjoying being able to spend time with my family and going to their—well, I'm not going to so many other activities right now, but before the health crisis hit, it was great to be the one to take them to school events and things like that.
00:16:01.500 So I'm very much looking forward to handing the reins over to the next leader.
00:16:05.940 Yeah, the silver lining of all of this is even more time with the family than you had imagined.
00:16:09.560 So I appreciate very much that response and your time today, Andrew Scheer, Leader of the Conservatives.
00:16:14.460 Thank you.
00:16:14.900 Thank you very much, Andrew.
00:16:17.040 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:16:19.220 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.