Juno News - Andrew Tate is a villain, not a victim

00:00:00.000 welcome to Canada's most irreverent talk show this is the Andrew Lawton show brought to you by true

00:00:08.400 north hello and welcome to you all Canada's most irreverent talk show here on this Wednesday

00:00:19.320 November 29th great to have you aboard the program this afternoon a fair bit to get to

00:00:25.320 we're going to do a bit of an around the world covering a few different topics I won't even

00:00:29.220 pretend there is a common theme weaving them all together except insofar as the common theme is me

00:00:34.960 because I'll be the one talking about them all but we'll do it with a couple of guests my two

00:00:39.000 actually a couple of people that I would say are our old friends of mine will be on the show today

00:00:42.940 Paige McPherson from the Fraser Institute who's been on the program in the past will be here in

00:00:48.660 just a little bit of time as we talk about independent schooling and why more and more

00:00:55.200 parents are turning away from the public schools even when they aren't in that economic category

00:00:59.640 you'd assume can afford to do that and we'll also be later on chatting about a guy named Andrew Tate

00:01:05.640 now if you don't know who Andrew Tate is I'd say you're very fortunate if you do know I think this

00:01:10.020 will be a very interesting discussion that I'm going to have with Jonathan Van Maren who is the

00:01:15.300 author of a number of books but also a great investigative piece he wrote for a European

00:01:19.860 publication about Andrew Tate that I think is worthy of a little bit of a close look can you

00:01:26.340 have a little bit of a close look it's worthy of a close look anyway but we'll get to all that I want

00:01:30.660 to start off with well I'll start with a specific headline and then I'm going to kind of broaden it

00:01:35.040 out into the bigger picture here of why this is so relevant there was a story this week that jumped

00:01:40.080 out at me where the special interlocutor on residential schools in Canada a woman by the name of 0.99

00:01:46.080 Kimberly Murray has said she is still waiting that's a direct quote from the global news report

00:01:51.940 still waiting for a bill criminalizing what she calls residential school denialism now how exactly

00:02:00.360 she defines residential school denialism I don't know but if it's anything like the law that is

00:02:07.460 currently on the books regarding the holocaust this criminalizes anyone who downplays or denies

00:02:13.920 the holocaust it makes it a criminal offense to do so except I think in like a private one-on-one 0.90

00:02:20.260 conversation that's the carvo you don't quote me on that but it basically would prevent the public

00:02:25.120 denial or downplaying of the holocaust now if you like me think that the holocaust happened and was 0.77

00:02:30.340 horrific and killed six million Jewish lives and was one of the most atrocious displays of anti-semitism

00:02:36.120 in the world you'd say well yes holocaust denial is terrible and I would agree but terrible does not

00:02:42.300 and should not in my view automatically equate to criminal now in the case of residential school

00:02:49.680 so-called denialism we have an added complication which is that there is no universally accepted

00:02:57.880 understanding of exactly what happened and how it happened we don't actually have among I mean even if

00:03:06.240 you look among historians and I studied Canadian history in university if you look among historians

00:03:11.220 there is no universality in what the residential school narrative is now I'd say generally speaking

00:03:16.780 people can agree that residential schools were on balance bad which is why they no longer exist

00:03:22.340 and yes we can find a whole bunch of stories of people saying well I went to a residential school and

00:03:26.860 had a fine experience and I went and had a great experience and then you have others who say you know

00:03:31.140 this ruined my family at the time it's ruined my ancestors lives and I'm not going to sit here and

00:03:36.840 say that we should disregard either of those perspectives and I think it's actually tremendously

00:03:42.240 shameful how many people want to disregard one narrative because they feel it goes against the

00:03:47.820 narrative they would prefer to believe as in all cases throughout history we see that there is good

00:03:53.700 and bad in people there's good and bad in humanity and residential schools are no exception to this now

00:03:59.440 at the same time we have heard some very damning allegations that were linked to these announcements

00:04:09.580 of so-called unmarked graves many of which were not how they were reported so if you were to get up and

00:04:17.480 say well actually I want to see the results of your studies that said there were x number of bodies

00:04:25.880 outside this school if you were to say that is that denialism is that downplaying if you were to say

00:04:32.940 well yes there was a former grave there but there's no evidence that anything untoward happened to

00:04:38.400 students this was just a community gravesite is that downplaying is that denialism I don't know

00:04:43.760 a lot of the work that True North has done mainly by my colleague Candace Malcolm has challenged the

00:04:51.140 mainstream media narrative about residential schools now I think this is very important

00:04:57.900 journalistic work and I'm glad that Candace Malcolm was doing that work this is stuff that when she was 0.98

00:05:03.320 saying it was treated as heretical but you fast forward a couple of years and a lot more people are

00:05:08.680 saying these things and things like it would that be criminalized if this activist had her way 1.00

00:05:16.580 I think it would be now the liberal government has said and it has a new justice minister now that it did

00:05:23.660 before which was David Lametti now it's a referani the justice minister in Canada has said the federal

00:05:29.220 government the Justin Trudeau government is considering that's their word they are considering the measures

00:05:35.060 advocated and recommended by Kimberly Murray which means officially the federal government has not ruled out the

00:05:40.800 idea that it will outlaw the denial of residential schools residential school denialism now this is I

00:05:49.500 think quite disgraceful for a number of reasons number one I believe in free speech and I believe

00:05:55.500 that free speech is important it's not just because free speech is an inherent good but because I do not

00:06:00.000 trust the government to decide where and how to draw a boundary the other side of this is that we're

00:06:10.020 talking about a live issue here for the government I mean look you can find a few people that are

00:06:15.660 going to get up on the holocaust and say well you know actually maybe it wasn't six million and

00:06:20.400 the United States holocaust memorial museum has this page which is interesting in which they talk about

00:06:25.640 holocaust denial and distortionism and they include those two because they realize that a lot of people

00:06:31.380 will make arguments about the holocaust saying yeah it happened but but there were fewer victims and

00:06:36.480 but it happened differently and oh they died of malnutrition and most of these are coming from

00:06:41.540 a place of wanting to downplay or really wanting to deny the holocaust now even so there needs to be 0.93

00:06:48.380 room in scholarship and academia for people to challenge even controversially narratives and when

00:06:55.240 I say room I'm talking about legal room I think we have the right to denounce people as kooks we have the 0.64

00:06:59.940 right to denounce people as anti-semites if we think they are the case and on the residential schools it's the

00:07:05.000 same thing with the exception of the fact that there is a lot murkier of there's a lot more murky of a

00:07:11.800 narrative on what happened especially and I'd say in large part due to media reporting on this and the

00:07:18.140 media malfeasance that we've seen so I absolutely and vehemently reject the idea of criminalizing

00:07:24.700 worldviews that are controversial or offensive to people or are heterodox which is to say they

00:07:30.640 stand apart from the conventional orthodoxy of an era but I absolutely do not trust the government

00:07:37.380 to do this and I look the holocaust denial ban is one that was advocated by a couple of conservatives

00:07:43.080 even and I thought that was quite shameful because imagine if we see a criminalization of islamophobia

00:07:47.960 and we see a criminalization of this and a criminalization of that and all of a sudden

00:07:52.080 the criminal code is being used as a tool to censor and silence criticism that belongs in the public

00:08:01.180 square that should have a right to exist and look I tell this story all the time I meant I made this

00:08:07.580 comment years ago before this criminal ban on holocaust NL came up in which I was talking about

00:08:12.560 free speech and I made just the standard uncontroversial to me libertarian position that you know people

00:08:17.940 should be legally allowed to debate the holocaust and I caveated that by saying they shouldn't and 0.93

00:08:22.880 we should denounce people to deny the holocaust and all of that and then of course what is that

00:08:26.700 like leftist rag press progress do they run a headline that oh Andrew Lawton thinks the holocaust is

00:08:31.440 debatable which is not what I said except insofar as if we're talking about the literal meaning of the

00:08:37.120 word subject to debate without being arrested so absolutely free speech is my hill to die on and I think

00:08:44.600 it should be for other people you know I heard John Carpe who's been on this show a number of times from

00:08:49.080 the JCCF say recently and I think he was quoting someone else but I can't remember who he was quoting

00:08:53.800 so I get to quote John Carpe on this that if you were to strip away every right and freedom that you

00:09:00.080 have in this country except for one freedom of speech or freedom of expression you could use that

00:09:06.080 freedom of expression to win back your other rights and in that sense he was saying that freedom of

00:09:11.360 expression was and is the most important fundamental freedom in Canada because that's the freedom that

00:09:17.080 you can use to argue and advocate and unlock the other freedoms now I thought that was a very good

00:09:23.300 way of putting it now obviously we have a hierarchy here I mean in some I don't want to get to I don't

00:09:28.280 want to start geeking out too much on political theory so I'll put that aside except you know when I go

00:09:32.800 back to not trusting the government that's a very important aspect of this because right now we have the

00:09:38.760 liberal government doing monumental changes on internet regulation and one of the things they've

00:09:44.460 tried to do well they have succeeded in doing is bringing online content into the orbit regulatory like 0.54

00:09:50.800 the regulatory orbit of the CRTC they've also done this stupid online news act where now to share your

00:09:58.660 links on Facebook and Google if you're a news site and have other people share them you've got to get 0.92

00:10:03.860 money from those companies so the news companies just say well screw that we're just going to ban

00:10:07.800 news links all together that's been Facebook's position but the government has also promised

00:10:12.260 another bill which you've heard me talking about now they've said this is coming imminently and this

00:10:18.080 is a bill that would regulate what the government calls online hate now how do they define online

00:10:24.200 hate well the first draft of the bill that was tabled a couple of years back said speech that is

00:10:28.840 likely to foment detestation or vilification but this would have been accompanied by requirements that

00:10:37.460 this content not be communicated online so very likely we would see takedown orders that social

00:10:45.120 media companies had to start censoring and zapping content because the federal government claims it is

00:10:49.940 illegal now why that is so important is because imagine if you take all of these other things they want

00:10:56.840 to talk about like residential school denialism if you share an article that Facebook or well let's

00:11:03.860 assume Facebook allows news you share an article that Facebook or Google or Twitter or you do a video

00:11:09.160 and YouTube has it and they think those companies think that might be residential school denialism

00:11:14.640 well all of a sudden we have a federal government that's created this regulatory framework

00:11:19.800 in which that can be zapped if they don't take it offline they can be fined huge money

00:11:26.320 and you as the person who shared that can be prosecuted in some way by a human rights commission

00:11:33.460 or I mean maybe even the criminal courts if we're talking about a society in which residential school

00:11:39.500 denialism is deemed to be a criminal offense so all of these things are incredibly dangerous and

00:11:46.640 incredibly important and it's why I continue to harp so much on the idea of freedom of speech

00:11:51.560 like we had up until a decade ago in Canada section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act which

00:11:57.780 was a provision that allowed for the prosecution of people who blogged basically it was the you know

00:12:03.020 infamously referred to as the blogger ban because it went after people like Kathy Shadle who did that

00:12:09.280 like online hate thing online but like it wasn't even hate it was just what a bunch of human rights

00:12:16.320 commissars decided they would say was hateful the recharged version of this the introduced version

00:12:23.440 that the liberals have promised does a lot more and is a lot more tuned in to the digital era that

00:12:30.760 we have now and I know that we are going to see mass censorship provisions unless there is

00:12:38.240 a serious change in governmental priorities which I think at this point could only come about through

00:12:43.980 a change in government altogether so I mean look at the core here are the two takeaways from this

00:12:50.200 number one free speech is important it's my hill to die on I think it should be yours and the situation

00:12:55.020 is not good for people that like value and respect free speech right now the second one and this is

00:13:00.420 like just the standard libertarian ethos I think do not trust the government they'll always do you dirty

00:13:05.160 so with that you know a lot of parents I will say are not exactly trusting the government right now

00:13:10.560 as well especially when it comes to education now we've seen in recent months mass protests of parents

00:13:16.900 and families against gender ideology in schools we've seen parental rights bills that have come

00:13:22.000 in the New Brunswick case in particular but also in Saskatchewan and we've seen more and more parents

00:13:28.320 fundamentally deciding they do not want their children to be in public schools this was the

00:13:35.220 subject of a new report from my friend Paige McPherson from the Fraser Institute she is the

00:13:39.700 associate director of educational policy there Paige good to talk to you thanks for coming on today

00:13:44.300 thank you so much Andrew so so what did your study show

00:13:47.740 so what we found when we look at the numbers in Nova Scotia in particular and and really this is it's not

00:13:54.880 unique to Nova Scotia it really is more of a national trend we see a greater proportion of students

00:14:02.920 going to independent schools in Nova Scotia and why that is noteworthy is that there really is no

00:14:10.480 what they call school choice or what we would refer to as school choice here in Nova Scotia which

00:14:15.880 basically means that there's not tax dollars parents tax dollars don't follow their children to the school of

00:14:23.620 their choice the way that they do in half of the provinces in Canada so every province outside of

00:14:28.720 Ontario and Atlantic Canada has that kind of a policy in place in Nova Scotia we don't have that

00:14:34.900 so what that means is that it's it's a more significant financial sacrifice for families to send their

00:14:40.900 children to an independent school instead of attending their local government public school

00:14:44.920 and yet we see increasing enrollment to these schools here in Nova Scotia now when you say independent

00:14:50.520 school I know it's a broad category but are we talking predominantly about religious private

00:14:55.620 schools are we talking about schools that just have a different approach to education or just

00:14:59.920 the sort of conventional uniformed private school like an upper Canada college that people have in

00:15:05.540 their minds or like well what's the breakdown in Nova Scotia it really incorporates all of those types of

00:15:11.460 schools so we did a paper looking at the the breakdown of the different types of independent

00:15:16.620 schools across Canada and it really is a diverse landscape of independent schools that exist across

00:15:21.960 Canada I think that as you say the kind of stereotypical image that pops into people's heads

00:15:27.020 is that kind of uniformed prep school but that really is not the majority it's actually quite the minority

00:15:33.060 of the independent schools in other words private schools in Canada and and so here in Nova Scotia same as in every

00:15:40.620 province it includes some religious private schools or cultural private schools so families who are seeking that option

00:15:45.720 um for a cultural or religious focus it includes um alternative education schools so that might be a

00:15:51.720 Waldorf school a Montessori school um a progressive art school could include anything like that a stem school 0.93

00:15:58.720 um and it also includes those that those elite prep schools although that is not the majority um of of what the

00:16:05.720 independent school landscape looks like really right across the country I I know I mean you were on a panel we did on on this topic more broadly a couple of months back on on this program and one of the things that I think that's a lot of the

00:16:13.720 the socio-economic class if you will of parents that make this choice is not what a lot of people assume it's not only the wealthy that are doing this which when you bring up the point you raised earlier about how the money doesn't follow the schools we're talking about parents making a big sacrifice here which means it must really mean something to them to do it

00:16:31.720 absolutely so yeah there's there's lots of families who are just you know not buying a second vehicle not going on vacation not um doing any number of things um so that they can make those sacrifices for their children to send them to an independent school it's the same for families at home school which often involves you know one family member sacrificing an income one parent staying home at least for most of the time with the child or children and so it is a financial sacrifice for these families and and what our data shows is that we have to

00:17:01.700 those i don't have nova scotia specific numbers but i was just looking at the numbers on this in british columbia as an example um and if you take out so in british columbia as an example those elite private schools that we were talking about are about five percent just over five percent of the independent schools in the province so a very small minority of those schools when you take those out of the picture um the income gap between families that send their kids to government public schools and families that send

00:17:31.700 1.9 so a very very small gap between those government public school families and independent school families when you throw those elite private schools back into the mix the gap is 14 so it's still not a dramatic gap um but if you take those out which i think gives a more fair kind of look at the picture only 1.9 so we're we're not looking at the sort of stereotypical picture that sometimes pops into people's heads about independent schools in canada what we really see is that it's a lot of families

00:18:01.680 families that for one reason or another are seeking an alternative form of education for their kids it could be something related to the philosophy or the educational approach of the school as we just talked about but it could also be something like my kid has experienced bullying in their classroom at their local government public school

00:18:17.680 there's too much violence in my local government public school whatever it might be there's there's a number of reasons that that families are seeking these alternative options um and it certainly it doesn't really fit that that typical stereotype and there's there's often the the argument that comes up

00:18:34.160 from critics of of programs like school choice programs that i they talked about off the top you know where some of parents tax dollars follows their child to the school of their choice enabling more lower and middle class

00:18:47.360 families families to send their kids to the school that better fits them to send their kids to an independent school or home school or in alberta's case a charter school um and part of that criticism um that that people will will say is that well you're taking money away from government public schools but the reality is that these policies actually save taxpayer dollars at the end of the day but they also the reality is also and certainly here in nova

00:19:10.080 scotia where we're looking at an increasing number of families sending their kids to independent schools we're already funneling more and more money into government public schools year after year after year actually nova scotia saw the second largest increase in funding to um to government public schools um over the time period in our latest study um it which was uh i believe 2012 to to the most recent year 2022

00:19:36.080 um so that we we are seeing this this really large growth in spending in government public schools um so so one of those criticisms is well we could take that money and we could improve things in government public schools they're already getting money throwing more money at the problem um which is already happening is obviously not solving the problem so there is a lot that we could do to improve our government public schools for sure but these programs that enable lower and middle-class children to attend independent schools for those families as we mentioned that are making sacrifice

00:20:06.060 sacrifices are really not the appropriate target here just to broaden this out for a moment paige is the the rise in nova i mean i obviously i know this study looks at nova scotia but from data you've seen elsewhere is nova scotia unique example or is this really a more national trend uh with the exception of perhaps alberta which i i know does offer parents a fair bit more choice

00:20:25.060 so in terms of enrollment patterns no this is not at all unique to nova scotia every single province in the country recorded growth in the enrollment uh uh to independent schools as a share of the student population and uh and the other thing is homeschooling that's also going up right across the country um so our study looked at uh 2001 to 2019-20 um and so it's it's a broad kind of look there and we see that again in every

00:20:55.040 single province there is a greater share of students that are now attending independent schools growth in that enrollment and a greater share of students that are homeschooling growth in that enrollment as well homeschooling is a very small proportion of kids overall in canada um that are that are making that choice for their family but it is also growing so really the i guess the takeaway here is that more and more families despite in half the country it being very financially difficult because in ontario in nova

00:21:23.040 scotia and across atlantic canada there's absolutely no financial support for those families they're paying their tax dollars to government public schools and none of those tax dollars are following following their child to the school that they're actually choosing for them and yet they are still making that choice they're still making the financial sacrifice involved um and and so basically a greater share of families are just seeking alternative education for their kids but it's not only good news for those families because research shows

00:21:53.040 that's the best choice policies in place which enable more children to find the schools that are the best fit for them actually improves results right across the board so one of the takeaways for nova scotia for example

00:22:05.040 or a province like ontario might be that enabling even more families to make these choices would be a good idea because not only does research show in an increase in uh student achievement in in student tests but it also shows reduced absences reduced suspensions

00:22:23.040 just better results across the board not only in the those independent schools that families are choosing but actually in the government public schools as well because a rising tide lifts all boats right the competition is good

00:22:34.480 and really that's what is born out in the research so if if provinces like nova scotia like ontario are looking

00:22:41.360 to increase the diversity in their education systems these kinds of school choice policies where the money follows

00:22:46.880 the student are a really great place to start well and just i mean one glaring thing that comes up from a policy

00:22:52.480 perspective is that you'd think in theory public schools would be improving as students leave because the uh they're still

00:22:59.360 getting the same amount of money but having to serve a fewer amount of students but that's not happening so the issue is

00:23:03.680 not a funding one which is i think what we often hear from a lot of advocates well we need to better fund public

00:23:08.480 schools yeah i also just want to be clear about something it's not that they're doing um you know the

00:23:14.000 the sort of the old refrain that oh we have to do more with less they're actually getting just more overall

00:23:19.440 and it's it's that accounts for enrollment growth and that accounts for inflation so per student inflation

00:23:25.680 adjusted spending in government public schools is up across the board um the only two provinces

00:23:32.000 where that is is not the case where per student so overall spending increase but per student inflation

00:23:37.680 adjusted spending in saskatchewan and alberta has decreased in every other province and certainly

00:23:44.160 nationally when you look at the average has increased so so even if there are students that

00:23:49.520 are leaving going to other options we're still pouring more money into the government public school

00:23:54.080 system on a per student basis there's still more money going in so more money really isn't solving the

00:24:00.320 problem if there's not been a year where okay we're seeing large decreases and this that can account

00:24:05.040 for the flaws that we're seeing in the government public school system um i think there's there's

00:24:10.320 other issues that we should be looking at you know whether it's that we've moved away from the kind of

00:24:14.960 content-rich curricula in our public schools where we give kids that solid foundation of fact-based

00:24:20.640 learning that makes it easier for them to then have critical thinking and comprehension skills later

00:24:25.440 we've moved away from phonics in our reading programs for example a lot of the policies have

00:24:30.080 made it more difficult for teachers to actually have leadership and empowerment over their classrooms

00:24:36.080 and so we do see this increase in in bullying and classroom violence um and uh and it's it's there's

00:24:42.240 there's big challenges for sure that that we're facing in our government public school systems

00:24:46.960 more money is not solving the problem so perhaps we should be looking at you know the bigger issues here

00:24:52.800 that are at play well you can read uh page's latest on this at the fraser institute website

00:24:58.240 more nova scotia families choosing independent schools despite lack of government support page

00:25:03.440 mcpherson always a pleasure thanks for coming on today thank you so much andrew all right well

00:25:08.960 moving along here well hang on i i want to just do a little bit of an indulgence before we go let's uh

00:25:14.160 let's put this photo up that i i sent you earlier sean yeah that's uh me on the right there and on the

00:25:20.640 the left well i guess just center right sitting next to me my old friend uh jonathan manmarin you've

00:25:25.520 heard him and seen him on the show before fantastic author and pro-life activist and i often credit

00:25:31.600 him for being the inspiration behind my book the freedom convoy in the sense that he gave me the kick

00:25:36.800 in the pants to write the book myself because i kept complaining that i wanted to read it we were

00:25:40.960 actually on friday evening at a book event in norwich that i had the great privilege of speaking to

00:25:47.120 that's uh in a small town in southwestern ontario and i just did kind of on the spur of the moment

00:25:53.040 said well jonathan why don't you just sit down and interview me and do like an actual fireside chat

00:25:58.000 oftentimes the term gets misused but as you can see we were uh genuinely in front of a fire there well

00:26:03.840 as it happens jonathan co-authored a fantastic piece in the european conservative that i think is

00:26:09.520 a must read for pretty much anyone and everyone who's ever been paying attention to this andrew

00:26:15.040 tate business now i want to say on this show i've shied away from it not because i i'm afraid of

00:26:22.080 tackling this issue head-on but i've shied away from it oftentimes because i believe people like

00:26:26.400 andrew tate don't deserve any sympathy and i think people on the right oftentimes

00:26:30.880 uh very instinctively like to respond to people being canceled or attacked in the media with the

00:26:36.400 presumption that there must be something virtuous about those people because so often cancel culture is

00:26:42.000 unjust and unfair but andrew tate is the exception to the rule i think he deserves to be condemned

00:26:48.000 he deserves to be criticized this is a man who by his own definition if you accept his own words to

00:26:53.680 say nothing of those of anyone around him he is a manipulator and a pimp he is someone who has made his

00:26:59.840 fortune from human trafficking and i don't view him as being this bulwark against cancel culture or in

00:27:06.800 favor of any values that i as someone on the right wish to hold well uh jonathan van maron what wrote

00:27:12.240 in the european conservative a piece that went deep inside andrew tate's operation and affirms why i

00:27:18.960 believe my position was the correct one the piece is called inside andrew tate's war room and jonathan

00:27:25.520 van maron joins me now jonathan good to talk to you thanks again for your help on friday night at that event

00:27:30.720 oh it was awesome great to be with you again so i mean just for people that haven't paid attention to

00:27:35.760 this in some ways this is just an online story the only people that i've ever heard say anything

00:27:42.000 favorable but andrew tate are people that have said it on twitter where we tend to see this reflection

00:27:46.800 of the world that isn't necessarily consistent with the one outside of it but clearly he is real he's a

00:27:52.080 real person he's made real money he has real fans and i would say he has real victims so why did he

00:27:59.200 attract your attention in the first place yeah well like like you and a lot of other people i didn't

00:28:05.120 hear about him first online and it was one of these influencers that popped up and at first i just kind

00:28:09.920 of ignored him because he seemed to be one of these guys who was really fixating on this sort of

00:28:15.600 manosphere critique of feminism but also a lot of workout tips and stuff like that not particularly

00:28:21.440 interesting but um as you know i do a lot of presentations on the dangers of pornography at high

00:28:26.880 schools and his name started coming up among young guys at christian schools all the time and that's

00:28:32.960 what kind of prompted me to start looking into him a little bit more and i realized that he may just

00:28:37.680 be an online phenomenon but as you know online phenomenon have real world impact and this guy had

00:28:44.320 billions of views on tiktok alone he has legions of young male followers and he was essentially using

00:28:52.000 these very clever social media clout tactics to accrue enormous numbers of impressionable young men

00:28:58.880 with sort of an influencer prosperity gospel version of toxic masculinity and then leveraging those fans

00:29:06.240 into paying into his online courses uh things like the war room uh the the phd course or pimp and hose

00:29:13.120 degree and hustler university and these are just one of the many ways andrew tate has made an obscene

00:29:19.520 amount of money for years there have been these people that have kind of made a fortune and a name on this

00:29:25.840 pickup culture stuff i mean you had tucker max back in the day roosh uh whatever his last name was

00:29:32.320 this is i i'd say far more insidious than that because we're not even talking about you know here's how

00:29:37.120 you you know put on some confidence and trick a girl into bed i mean what he's telling people is how you

00:29:43.200 manipulate and use young girls vulnerable girls and women oftentimes to make money in the porn business 0.85

00:29:50.320 and you know very explicit is what he's doing and talking about doing there and he takes great pride

00:29:56.240 and joy into it and i mean you and i disagree on a number of things in the sense that i'm a libertarian

00:30:00.800 and you are not so this but this is me not me making a a legal or moral judgment about any individual

00:30:07.360 people that for whatever reason may choose to go into this he is not an example of that nor are the

00:30:12.720 people that he tries to bring into this world yeah let's unpack that a little bit because i think most

00:30:17.840 any listener who's aware of andrew tate will know that he's been charged by the romanian authorities

00:30:22.960 on counts of sexual assaults and human trafficking uh he's consistently attempted to downplay the

00:30:28.880 charges he's insisted to interviewers like uh tucker carlson and candace owens uh that he's merely being

00:30:35.200 uh accused of trying to help uh women make money on tiktok that he never took any of the money for

00:30:40.560 himself and so it's really hard i think for people who aren't doing any research into this guy to

00:30:46.400 figure out what the truth about him actually is because the public image he projects is of this

00:30:52.080 hyper masculine incredibly wealthy role model for young men and that all he's trying to do is telling

00:30:58.480 guys to get out of bed to work out to get jacked and to make a lot of money in what he calls the real

00:31:04.800 world uh that you know women are only going to want to sleep with somebody who looks like him makes 0.85

00:31:09.120 money like him drives cars like him he's kind of presenting himself as sort of like uh jordan peterson

00:31:15.680 but with muscles and a couple of uh a couple of uh kickboxing championships under his belt and now

00:31:21.920 most recently he's announced that he's converted to islam and he makes a pretty big show of talking

00:31:26.720 about his muslim values the that's the sort of the public andrew tate but the private andrew tate is

00:31:32.400 where things get a lot more interesting because you have to ask yourself how did he make his tens of

00:31:37.440 millions of dollars what is he advising the people who are members of his exclusive war room to do

00:31:43.680 and that's where things get really interesting because he has now admitted that he made a lot

00:31:49.040 of his money um with his brother tristan tate who lives with him in their compound in bucharest romania

00:31:54.880 running what's called cam girls or only fans accounts where essentially they partnered in

00:31:59.760 their in their in their terms i would say they just partnered with girls and then everybody got rich 0.84

00:32:04.000 because they put girls on camera subscribers pay to see these girls do various sexual things on camera 1.00

00:32:08.800 or take their clothes off on camera and this was a mutually beneficial uh relationship and what

00:32:14.000 they're being accused of by romanian authorities is utilizing what law enforcement refers to as the

00:32:18.960 lover boy method to essentially manipulate young naive girls um into romantic relationships with them

00:32:27.520 where they have romantic expectations they think they're in a dating relationship uh these girls 1.00

00:32:32.080 often think that they're on the way to marriage and family and then use the emotional connection that

00:32:37.120 they establish with these girls to manipulate them into what's colloquially referred to as sex work 1.00

00:32:42.480 in short to get them on camera making money uh for the tates and so he's admitted to doing that

00:32:48.240 and in his interviews he lies he says he did that seven to ten years ago um there's uh there's

00:32:53.280 rock solid evidence including his own video testimony that he was doing this just a couple of years ago

00:32:58.160 he was still doing this during the pandemic and the reality is that the tates built their fortune

00:33:03.520 in the pornography industry and interestingly also uh in andrew's case running casinos and so he he

00:33:10.560 always talks about how his entire role in life is to break men out of the slave mind and the reality

00:33:16.080 is the only reason he got rich to begin with is by pushing products that enslave men which is gambling

00:33:22.880 and pornography and it's it's quite rich to watch him condemn pornography now when the reality is that he

00:33:28.880 built his entire empire on pornography and as both the recently released indictment by the romanian

00:33:34.800 authorities it got released last week indicates as well as the investigation i did with my uh with my

00:33:40.640 fellow investigator uh stefan moans indicated um what he's actually been doing is employing psychological

00:33:47.280 warfare against naive women and younger girls in order to get them into the porn business uh before we get

00:33:53.680 into the war room there's just a fundamental flaw in his side of this argument because the whole point

00:34:00.560 whatever people think of it of only fans is that any woman around the world can just open her computer 0.95

00:34:07.280 and do all those acts that you just mentioned on there and make a lot of money what does he bring to

00:34:12.560 that table what what does he contribute to this if not trying to bring a girl or woman in who otherwise

00:34:18.960 wouldn't have done is well that's exactly right so if you listen to him in his interviews with with

00:34:25.040 tucker carlson and candace owens and one of the reasons honestly um that my friend stefan and i were

00:34:30.960 very motivated to kind of try and find a lot of information about what was actually going on is because

00:34:36.800 tucker carlson and candace owens are two very significant commentators on the right and when they decided to

00:34:42.080 platform uh andrew tate and essentially sympathetically display his case uh to a conservative audience i

00:34:50.240 thought it was really important to present a conservative audience with an alternative view

00:34:54.240 of what this guy was up to and yeah in his interviews he essentially claimed like look i'm

00:34:58.400 being criminalized his words for being nice to girls and for trying to help them make money um when

00:35:06.240 the reality is as you point out um you know what's andrew tate necessary for for a girl to go on only cams

00:35:11.600 our only fans pardon me right she can just start up an account uh she can start um engaging in

00:35:16.640 pornographic behavior and she can make money the reality is that even inside the war room chat logs 1.00

00:35:22.400 uh both andrew tate and the men who participate in the war room they all emphasize that the strategy here

00:35:29.520 is to get girls onto social media to act as what they call thirst traps and to go on to only fans but 1.00

00:35:35.760 to hold the purse strings and to ensure that all of the money is going directly to tate which is

00:35:41.440 why he refers uh to the pimp and hose degree um the way that he does because he took there are pimps

00:35:47.840 what do the pimps do pimps get all of the money they financially benefit um from essentially trafficking

00:35:53.520 girls in public and the war room that we keep referring to here this is his i guess what self-help

00:36:00.400 training program whatever you want to call it men pay eight thousand dollars a year to be a part of this 0.98

00:36:05.520 and you know a lot of this you could just say you know well what are these pathetic saps up to but 0.89

00:36:10.800 i i don't actually view it as that benign when you look at how these men are being told to treat women 0.93

00:36:16.080 i mean some of the so-called rules that you've reported on that men are told to employ with women

00:36:21.600 is that uh no male friends should be allowed you should always be in a position to dominate sex is a 0.96

00:36:27.520 weapon and not the goal and i mean look in some cases you may find some pathetic guy on his couch that

00:36:32.960 looks at this and does nothing with it but you could also see this wave of andrew tates that

00:36:37.920 take this and start to put this into effect well let me read you in the context of what you just said

00:36:43.440 how andrew tate describes his war room now to all the journalists who are asking him questions

00:36:48.240 he describes it as a network of men that promotes self-discipline motivation and confidence building

00:36:53.760 while giving members access to thousands of professionals from around the world who encourage

00:36:58.240 personal responsibility and accountability emphasizing the importance of taking ownership

00:37:03.040 of your choices and actions and this of course is completely primed to let conservatives know that

00:37:09.120 he's one of them to let those who are suspicious of mainstream narratives those who are suspicious of

00:37:14.640 what he calls the matrix or the matrix or the deep state he's trying to signal to people essentially

00:37:19.600 even like you and i that he is one of us and that when the romanian authorities decided to go

00:37:24.560 after him and charge him with sexual assault and human trafficking that in fact they were merely

00:37:29.680 persecuting him for holding traditional views and that's just some feminist witch hunt that that type 1.00

00:37:35.200 of attitude yeah exactly in fact he said to guys like piers morgan like look any of us can be accused

00:37:40.400 of this at any time and end up in precisely the same situation that i am and the way that we did our

00:37:46.560 investigation is actually uh we got from a source um thousands of pages of private chat logs from the war room

00:37:53.840 that show what andrew tate is actually teaching now these documents the document cache that we have

00:37:59.440 access to and that we went through to build our investigation um that was published at the european

00:38:04.560 conservative were verified by the bbc um as well as uh rolling stone magazine they went through these uh

00:38:12.160 some of these documents and they came to different conclusions on other issues we were mainly focused on

00:38:17.600 what is andrew tate doing with the war room and what is he teaching the men and what we broke down

00:38:23.680 with the rules etc that we detailed was essentially what he's doing is trying to teach the men to

00:38:29.120 well pimp hoes as as phd actually says um that's how he refers to women he refers to women as um 1.00

00:38:35.680 people who are merely programmed and the goal of a member of the war room is to deprogram them and then 0.86

00:38:41.360 reprogram them to be doing sex work and we open our investigation with a with a pretty i think you'd 1.00

00:38:46.960 agree chilling story of his conversation with a young woman named jasmina valentina who he met and

00:38:53.440 and she completely falls for him and then she says to him um i'm religious i believe in god i don't

00:38:59.280 believe in posting you know lingerie pictures i don't believe in doing only fans um i have some moral

00:39:04.960 boundaries um but if you're loyal to me then i'm completely loyal back to you i would make a great

00:39:10.160 wife and she's clearly hoping this relationship goes in that direction and so what he does for

00:39:15.680 the men of the war room is he actually screenshots his whatsapp conversations with jasmina and then

00:39:21.520 posts them on the war room with his commentary of what he's doing so he can walk them step by step

00:39:28.000 through the way he psychologically manipulates her and you have all these comments coming in

00:39:33.440 saying oh you should try this next or that was a really clever move and he says look no women 1.00

00:39:38.560 believe in god if she says she believes in god all you've got to do is deprogram her and then

00:39:43.360 reprogram her and you see step by step him psychologically manipulating her to isolate

00:39:49.360 her from her friends and her family and then once she's isolated essentially say don't ever leave the

00:39:54.480 house that i've put you in um otherwise you're clearly not invested in this relationship and she's 1.00

00:39:59.360 in the house conveniently uh with the woman who does a lot of the only fans business for him who was 0.73

00:40:05.120 incidentally arrested with the tates and also charged uh with human trafficking later and in

00:40:10.720 the indictment that was released too when her name shows up she's very frequently talks about beating 0.98

00:40:15.120 the girls to keep them in line and things like that and to give you one specific example this girl

00:40:20.480 thinks that she's in this relationship with tate and he tells her um that he has heard from somebody

00:40:26.400 in her hometown that she used to work in a sex club and then he tells the men of the war room i just

00:40:30.880 made that up i made that up to scare her and then to isolate her and so you read through the messages

00:40:36.080 and she's freaking out and saying i never did that and he said well you're obviously never going back

00:40:39.920 to your hometown again i only want you going out with me to prove that i can trust you and so she

00:40:44.240 agrees and he reports back to the men look now she'll never go back to her hometown again she'll

00:40:49.440 never go back to her family and friends i don't want her seeing friends when she should be working 0.97

00:40:53.280 on cam for me and we we begin the investigation basically going step by step through his initial

00:40:59.280 conversations with her all the way down to her him breaking her down and getting her to agree to

00:41:04.640 do only fans and it's a it's really chilling and disturbing stuff so to put this in the context of

00:41:11.920 i mean you you've sort of breezed by it here but we saw candace owens and tucker carlson do

00:41:17.840 two what i would say are rather atrocious interviews with andrew tate i mean i i've never

00:41:22.640 really been a fan of candace owen i i've liked a lot of work tucker carlson has done this interview

00:41:28.000 he had no pushback i mean when i mentioned a couple of months back some criticisms of andrew

00:41:33.120 tate on twitter people were saying well just watch his interview with tucker carlson i said that's the

00:41:36.880 the problem is that there was no pushback there was no challenging him even with his own stated

00:41:41.760 opinions on on things and his own stated approach to things why has the right in your view and i know

00:41:47.680 this goes beyond your investigation but why have so many on the right been so quick to embrace him is

00:41:52.720 it just that contrarian impulse i alluded to before where we're so used to being cancelled and

00:41:57.200 marginalized that when we see someone being cancelled we just assume it's it's unjust or

00:42:01.200 do you think there's something else here i think it's multiple things i certainly do think it's the

00:42:05.840 contrarian position because i think that a lot of figures on the right now essentially react to

00:42:10.640 things with a hermeneutic of suspicion which is the mainstream narrative is always wrong and we must

00:42:16.160 adopt uncritically the opposite narrative the i would differentiate between the two interviews the

00:42:21.760 the reason the tucker interview was so appalling to me was because he goes to visit two guys who

00:42:28.400 have just been charged with sex trafficking and in the first the interview is over two hours long

00:42:32.720 in the first 40 minutes he basically asks him a few softball questions about the case and then

00:42:39.920 takes tate's view completely without pushback um tate says oh you know i'm getting persecuted for

00:42:46.160 being nice to girls and for helping them make money on tiktok and at no point does tucker even you know

00:42:51.680 look down refer to the actual indictment say well actually this is what the indictment says what do

00:42:56.080 you have to say to that he was not asked to respond to any of the actual allegations which

00:43:01.280 any journalist who's interviewing somebody charged of crimes would likely ask them to respond to what

00:43:07.360 they're actually when you have no limitation of time i mean you flew all the way over there you

00:43:11.680 could surely take the five minutes to ask that very basic question yes yeah it was just bizarre

00:43:16.880 and then tucker basically says yeah i i believe you and they move on and spend two hours chortling

00:43:21.920 a while tucker asks him various questions about different you know american political scenarios

00:43:27.840 on throat throat which um tate shows phenomenal ignorance about almost every topic that he's asked

00:43:34.240 about because they're just not his wheelhouse so um he talks about pornography which is ironic that um

00:43:39.920 you know tucker's asking a a pornographer uh for his views on pornography but even in his attempt

00:43:45.280 to condemn some forms of pornography tate gets the science and the sociology wrong he gets everything

00:43:50.240 about transgenderism wrong but it was basically just a bro fest candace owens came in and the difficulty

00:43:55.520 with candace owens is that her style is a is a toxic fusion of hubris and ignorance where she seems to

00:44:02.320 think she knows a lot about a lot of subjects but again walked in with no research done whatsoever she

00:44:06.640 asked him a couple of questions um so she presumably done a little bit of research beforehand but again

00:44:12.960 very simple disprovable claims like why am i getting persecuted for things that i did 10 years ago we all

00:44:18.640 regret things we did a long time ago tate says about his work in the porn business when there's videos all

00:44:24.400 over the place of recent interviews he did talking about um his cam girl business only a couple of years

00:44:30.160 ago i'm talking 2020 2021 and 2022 you didn't have to get private chat logs from the war room like our

00:44:37.680 investigation did to know that he was lying every step of the way in his interview with candace and

00:44:43.920 tucker tucker for sure has an entire research team nobody with an operation that big doesn't have

00:44:49.680 researchers who couldn't have handed him the answers to questions without him having to dive into the

00:44:54.320 internet himself um candace owens clearly wanted to believe him um her defense of her uh of her 0.75

00:45:00.720 interview with him online was like frankly pathetic because she screwed it up uh she didn't do a good

00:45:06.800 job she didn't do research ahead of time easily available information uh she did not utilize and the 0.70

00:45:12.480 whole thing struck me as odd considering the fact that she uh went scorched earth on stephen crowder when

00:45:18.000 those videos of of him being uh an awful person to his wife were released so she went after him and

00:45:23.280 called him an abuser and all kinds of names and then somebody who admitted to beating a woman in

00:45:28.880 his interview with her and admitting to having done pornography but just lying about how long ago

00:45:33.440 it was etc basically got a free pass from her um it's really really hard to figure out unless you take

00:45:41.680 the incredibly cynical approach of just saying she was clout chasing which is probably the simplest answer

00:45:47.680 yeah well to put a trite little bow on this the enemy of your enemy is not in fact always

00:45:52.720 your friend the piece at the european conservative is a very important one to read and again don't

00:45:57.280 get sucked into this belief that just because uh people you don't like don't like someone that they

00:46:02.480 are worthy of your admiration or support inside andrew tate's war room at europeanconservative.com

00:46:08.400 jonathan van maron always a pleasure sir thanks for coming on thanks so much andrew that does it for

00:46:14.480 us for today we'll be back tomorrow with a very special edition of the andrew lawton show a full

00:46:20.720 sit down with my colleague candace malcolm back from maternity leave with lots of great plans

00:46:25.360 you'll hear a little bit about that tomorrow but in the meantime thank you god bless and a good day to

00:46:29.920 you all thanks for listening to the andrew lawton show support the program by donating to true north

00:46:35.200 at www.tnc.news

Juno News - November 29, 2023

Andrew Tate is a villain, not a victim

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript