00:00:00.000welcome to Canada's most irreverent talk show this is the Andrew Lawton show brought to you by true
00:00:08.400north hello and welcome to you all Canada's most irreverent talk show here on this Wednesday
00:00:19.320November 29th great to have you aboard the program this afternoon a fair bit to get to
00:00:25.320we're going to do a bit of an around the world covering a few different topics I won't even
00:00:29.220pretend there is a common theme weaving them all together except insofar as the common theme is me
00:00:34.960because I'll be the one talking about them all but we'll do it with a couple of guests my two
00:00:39.000actually a couple of people that I would say are our old friends of mine will be on the show today
00:00:42.940Paige McPherson from the Fraser Institute who's been on the program in the past will be here in
00:00:48.660just a little bit of time as we talk about independent schooling and why more and more
00:00:55.200parents are turning away from the public schools even when they aren't in that economic category
00:00:59.640you'd assume can afford to do that and we'll also be later on chatting about a guy named Andrew Tate
00:01:05.640now if you don't know who Andrew Tate is I'd say you're very fortunate if you do know I think this
00:01:10.020will be a very interesting discussion that I'm going to have with Jonathan Van Maren who is the
00:01:15.300author of a number of books but also a great investigative piece he wrote for a European
00:01:19.860publication about Andrew Tate that I think is worthy of a little bit of a close look can you
00:01:26.340have a little bit of a close look it's worthy of a close look anyway but we'll get to all that I want
00:01:30.660to start off with well I'll start with a specific headline and then I'm going to kind of broaden it
00:01:35.040out into the bigger picture here of why this is so relevant there was a story this week that jumped
00:01:40.080out at me where the special interlocutor on residential schools in Canada a woman by the name of
00:01:46.080Kimberly Murray has said she is still waiting that's a direct quote from the global news report
00:01:51.940still waiting for a bill criminalizing what she calls residential school denialism now how exactly
00:02:00.360she defines residential school denialism I don't know but if it's anything like the law that is
00:02:07.460currently on the books regarding the holocaust this criminalizes anyone who downplays or denies
00:02:13.920the holocaust it makes it a criminal offense to do so except I think in like a private one-on-one
00:02:20.260conversation that's the carvo you don't quote me on that but it basically would prevent the public
00:02:25.120denial or downplaying of the holocaust now if you like me think that the holocaust happened and was
00:02:30.340horrific and killed six million Jewish lives and was one of the most atrocious displays of anti-semitism
00:02:36.120in the world you'd say well yes holocaust denial is terrible and I would agree but terrible does not
00:02:42.300and should not in my view automatically equate to criminal now in the case of residential school
00:02:49.680so-called denialism we have an added complication which is that there is no universally accepted
00:02:57.880understanding of exactly what happened and how it happened we don't actually have among I mean even if
00:03:06.240you look among historians and I studied Canadian history in university if you look among historians
00:03:11.220there is no universality in what the residential school narrative is now I'd say generally speaking
00:03:16.780people can agree that residential schools were on balance bad which is why they no longer exist
00:03:22.340and yes we can find a whole bunch of stories of people saying well I went to a residential school and
00:03:26.860had a fine experience and I went and had a great experience and then you have others who say you know
00:03:31.140this ruined my family at the time it's ruined my ancestors lives and I'm not going to sit here and
00:03:36.840say that we should disregard either of those perspectives and I think it's actually tremendously
00:03:42.240shameful how many people want to disregard one narrative because they feel it goes against the
00:03:47.820narrative they would prefer to believe as in all cases throughout history we see that there is good
00:03:53.700and bad in people there's good and bad in humanity and residential schools are no exception to this now
00:03:59.440at the same time we have heard some very damning allegations that were linked to these announcements
00:04:09.580of so-called unmarked graves many of which were not how they were reported so if you were to get up and
00:04:17.480say well actually I want to see the results of your studies that said there were x number of bodies
00:04:25.880outside this school if you were to say that is that denialism is that downplaying if you were to say
00:04:32.940well yes there was a former grave there but there's no evidence that anything untoward happened to
00:04:38.400students this was just a community gravesite is that downplaying is that denialism I don't know
00:04:43.760a lot of the work that True North has done mainly by my colleague Candace Malcolm has challenged the
00:04:51.140mainstream media narrative about residential schools now I think this is very important
00:04:57.900journalistic work and I'm glad that Candace Malcolm was doing that work this is stuff that when she was
00:05:03.320saying it was treated as heretical but you fast forward a couple of years and a lot more people are
00:05:08.680saying these things and things like it would that be criminalized if this activist had her way
00:05:16.580I think it would be now the liberal government has said and it has a new justice minister now that it did
00:05:23.660before which was David Lametti now it's a referani the justice minister in Canada has said the federal
00:05:29.220government the Justin Trudeau government is considering that's their word they are considering the measures
00:05:35.060advocated and recommended by Kimberly Murray which means officially the federal government has not ruled out the
00:05:40.800idea that it will outlaw the denial of residential schools residential school denialism now this is I
00:05:49.500think quite disgraceful for a number of reasons number one I believe in free speech and I believe
00:05:55.500that free speech is important it's not just because free speech is an inherent good but because I do not
00:06:00.000trust the government to decide where and how to draw a boundary the other side of this is that we're
00:06:10.020talking about a live issue here for the government I mean look you can find a few people that are
00:06:15.660going to get up on the holocaust and say well you know actually maybe it wasn't six million and
00:06:20.400the United States holocaust memorial museum has this page which is interesting in which they talk about
00:06:25.640holocaust denial and distortionism and they include those two because they realize that a lot of people
00:06:31.380will make arguments about the holocaust saying yeah it happened but but there were fewer victims and
00:06:36.480but it happened differently and oh they died of malnutrition and most of these are coming from
00:06:41.540a place of wanting to downplay or really wanting to deny the holocaust now even so there needs to be
00:06:48.380room in scholarship and academia for people to challenge even controversially narratives and when
00:06:55.240I say room I'm talking about legal room I think we have the right to denounce people as kooks we have the
00:06:59.940right to denounce people as anti-semites if we think they are the case and on the residential schools it's the
00:07:05.000same thing with the exception of the fact that there is a lot murkier of there's a lot more murky of a
00:07:11.800narrative on what happened especially and I'd say in large part due to media reporting on this and the
00:07:18.140media malfeasance that we've seen so I absolutely and vehemently reject the idea of criminalizing
00:07:24.700worldviews that are controversial or offensive to people or are heterodox which is to say they
00:07:30.640stand apart from the conventional orthodoxy of an era but I absolutely do not trust the government
00:07:37.380to do this and I look the holocaust denial ban is one that was advocated by a couple of conservatives
00:07:43.080even and I thought that was quite shameful because imagine if we see a criminalization of islamophobia
00:07:47.960and we see a criminalization of this and a criminalization of that and all of a sudden
00:07:52.080the criminal code is being used as a tool to censor and silence criticism that belongs in the public
00:08:01.180square that should have a right to exist and look I tell this story all the time I meant I made this
00:08:07.580comment years ago before this criminal ban on holocaust NL came up in which I was talking about
00:08:12.560free speech and I made just the standard uncontroversial to me libertarian position that you know people
00:08:17.940should be legally allowed to debate the holocaust and I caveated that by saying they shouldn't and
00:08:22.880we should denounce people to deny the holocaust and all of that and then of course what is that
00:08:26.700like leftist rag press progress do they run a headline that oh Andrew Lawton thinks the holocaust is
00:08:31.440debatable which is not what I said except insofar as if we're talking about the literal meaning of the
00:08:37.120word subject to debate without being arrested so absolutely free speech is my hill to die on and I think
00:08:44.600it should be for other people you know I heard John Carpe who's been on this show a number of times from
00:08:49.080the JCCF say recently and I think he was quoting someone else but I can't remember who he was quoting
00:08:53.800so I get to quote John Carpe on this that if you were to strip away every right and freedom that you
00:09:00.080have in this country except for one freedom of speech or freedom of expression you could use that
00:09:06.080freedom of expression to win back your other rights and in that sense he was saying that freedom of
00:09:11.360expression was and is the most important fundamental freedom in Canada because that's the freedom that
00:09:17.080you can use to argue and advocate and unlock the other freedoms now I thought that was a very good
00:09:23.300way of putting it now obviously we have a hierarchy here I mean in some I don't want to get to I don't
00:09:28.280want to start geeking out too much on political theory so I'll put that aside except you know when I go
00:09:32.800back to not trusting the government that's a very important aspect of this because right now we have the
00:09:38.760liberal government doing monumental changes on internet regulation and one of the things they've
00:09:44.460tried to do well they have succeeded in doing is bringing online content into the orbit regulatory like
00:09:50.800the regulatory orbit of the CRTC they've also done this stupid online news act where now to share your
00:09:58.660links on Facebook and Google if you're a news site and have other people share them you've got to get
00:10:03.860money from those companies so the news companies just say well screw that we're just going to ban
00:10:07.800news links all together that's been Facebook's position but the government has also promised
00:10:12.260another bill which you've heard me talking about now they've said this is coming imminently and this
00:10:18.080is a bill that would regulate what the government calls online hate now how do they define online
00:10:24.200hate well the first draft of the bill that was tabled a couple of years back said speech that is
00:10:28.840likely to foment detestation or vilification but this would have been accompanied by requirements that
00:10:37.460this content not be communicated online so very likely we would see takedown orders that social
00:10:45.120media companies had to start censoring and zapping content because the federal government claims it is
00:10:49.940illegal now why that is so important is because imagine if you take all of these other things they want
00:10:56.840to talk about like residential school denialism if you share an article that Facebook or well let's
00:11:03.860assume Facebook allows news you share an article that Facebook or Google or Twitter or you do a video
00:11:09.160and YouTube has it and they think those companies think that might be residential school denialism
00:11:14.640well all of a sudden we have a federal government that's created this regulatory framework
00:11:19.800in which that can be zapped if they don't take it offline they can be fined huge money
00:11:26.320and you as the person who shared that can be prosecuted in some way by a human rights commission
00:11:33.460or I mean maybe even the criminal courts if we're talking about a society in which residential school
00:11:39.500denialism is deemed to be a criminal offense so all of these things are incredibly dangerous and
00:11:46.640incredibly important and it's why I continue to harp so much on the idea of freedom of speech
00:11:51.560like we had up until a decade ago in Canada section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act which
00:11:57.780was a provision that allowed for the prosecution of people who blogged basically it was the you know
00:12:03.020infamously referred to as the blogger ban because it went after people like Kathy Shadle who did that
00:12:09.280like online hate thing online but like it wasn't even hate it was just what a bunch of human rights
00:12:16.320commissars decided they would say was hateful the recharged version of this the introduced version
00:12:23.440that the liberals have promised does a lot more and is a lot more tuned in to the digital era that
00:12:30.760we have now and I know that we are going to see mass censorship provisions unless there is
00:12:38.240a serious change in governmental priorities which I think at this point could only come about through
00:12:43.980a change in government altogether so I mean look at the core here are the two takeaways from this
00:12:50.200number one free speech is important it's my hill to die on I think it should be yours and the situation
00:12:55.020is not good for people that like value and respect free speech right now the second one and this is
00:13:00.420like just the standard libertarian ethos I think do not trust the government they'll always do you dirty
00:13:05.160so with that you know a lot of parents I will say are not exactly trusting the government right now
00:13:10.560as well especially when it comes to education now we've seen in recent months mass protests of parents
00:13:16.900and families against gender ideology in schools we've seen parental rights bills that have come
00:13:22.000in the New Brunswick case in particular but also in Saskatchewan and we've seen more and more parents
00:13:28.320fundamentally deciding they do not want their children to be in public schools this was the
00:13:35.220subject of a new report from my friend Paige McPherson from the Fraser Institute she is the
00:13:39.700associate director of educational policy there Paige good to talk to you thanks for coming on today
00:13:44.300thank you so much Andrew so so what did your study show
00:13:47.740so what we found when we look at the numbers in Nova Scotia in particular and and really this is it's not
00:13:54.880unique to Nova Scotia it really is more of a national trend we see a greater proportion of students
00:14:02.920going to independent schools in Nova Scotia and why that is noteworthy is that there really is no
00:14:10.480what they call school choice or what we would refer to as school choice here in Nova Scotia which
00:14:15.880basically means that there's not tax dollars parents tax dollars don't follow their children to the school of
00:14:23.620their choice the way that they do in half of the provinces in Canada so every province outside of
00:14:28.720Ontario and Atlantic Canada has that kind of a policy in place in Nova Scotia we don't have that
00:14:34.900so what that means is that it's it's a more significant financial sacrifice for families to send their
00:14:40.900children to an independent school instead of attending their local government public school
00:14:44.920and yet we see increasing enrollment to these schools here in Nova Scotia now when you say independent
00:14:50.520school I know it's a broad category but are we talking predominantly about religious private
00:14:55.620schools are we talking about schools that just have a different approach to education or just
00:14:59.920the sort of conventional uniformed private school like an upper Canada college that people have in
00:15:05.540their minds or like well what's the breakdown in Nova Scotia it really incorporates all of those types of
00:15:11.460schools so we did a paper looking at the the breakdown of the different types of independent
00:15:16.620schools across Canada and it really is a diverse landscape of independent schools that exist across
00:15:21.960Canada I think that as you say the kind of stereotypical image that pops into people's heads
00:15:27.020is that kind of uniformed prep school but that really is not the majority it's actually quite the minority
00:15:33.060of the independent schools in other words private schools in Canada and and so here in Nova Scotia same as in every
00:15:40.620province it includes some religious private schools or cultural private schools so families who are seeking that option
00:15:45.720um for a cultural or religious focus it includes um alternative education schools so that might be a
00:15:51.720Waldorf school a Montessori school um a progressive art school could include anything like that a stem school
00:15:58.720um and it also includes those that those elite prep schools although that is not the majority um of of what the
00:16:05.720independent school landscape looks like really right across the country I I know I mean you were on a panel we did on on this topic more broadly a couple of months back on on this program and one of the things that I think that's a lot of the
00:16:13.720the socio-economic class if you will of parents that make this choice is not what a lot of people assume it's not only the wealthy that are doing this which when you bring up the point you raised earlier about how the money doesn't follow the schools we're talking about parents making a big sacrifice here which means it must really mean something to them to do it
00:16:31.720absolutely so yeah there's there's lots of families who are just you know not buying a second vehicle not going on vacation not um doing any number of things um so that they can make those sacrifices for their children to send them to an independent school it's the same for families at home school which often involves you know one family member sacrificing an income one parent staying home at least for most of the time with the child or children and so it is a financial sacrifice for these families and and what our data shows is that we have to
00:17:01.700those i don't have nova scotia specific numbers but i was just looking at the numbers on this in british columbia as an example um and if you take out so in british columbia as an example those elite private schools that we were talking about are about five percent just over five percent of the independent schools in the province so a very small minority of those schools when you take those out of the picture um the income gap between families that send their kids to government public schools and families that send
00:17:31.7001.9 so a very very small gap between those government public school families and independent school families when you throw those elite private schools back into the mix the gap is 14 so it's still not a dramatic gap um but if you take those out which i think gives a more fair kind of look at the picture only 1.9 so we're we're not looking at the sort of stereotypical picture that sometimes pops into people's heads about independent schools in canada what we really see is that it's a lot of families
00:18:01.680families that for one reason or another are seeking an alternative form of education for their kids it could be something related to the philosophy or the educational approach of the school as we just talked about but it could also be something like my kid has experienced bullying in their classroom at their local government public school
00:18:17.680there's too much violence in my local government public school whatever it might be there's there's a number of reasons that that families are seeking these alternative options um and it certainly it doesn't really fit that that typical stereotype and there's there's often the the argument that comes up
00:18:34.160from critics of of programs like school choice programs that i they talked about off the top you know where some of parents tax dollars follows their child to the school of their choice enabling more lower and middle class
00:18:47.360families families to send their kids to the school that better fits them to send their kids to an independent school or home school or in alberta's case a charter school um and part of that criticism um that that people will will say is that well you're taking money away from government public schools but the reality is that these policies actually save taxpayer dollars at the end of the day but they also the reality is also and certainly here in nova
00:19:10.080scotia where we're looking at an increasing number of families sending their kids to independent schools we're already funneling more and more money into government public schools year after year after year actually nova scotia saw the second largest increase in funding to um to government public schools um over the time period in our latest study um it which was uh i believe 2012 to to the most recent year 2022
00:19:36.080um so that we we are seeing this this really large growth in spending in government public schools um so so one of those criticisms is well we could take that money and we could improve things in government public schools they're already getting money throwing more money at the problem um which is already happening is obviously not solving the problem so there is a lot that we could do to improve our government public schools for sure but these programs that enable lower and middle-class children to attend independent schools for those families as we mentioned that are making sacrifice
00:20:06.060sacrifices are really not the appropriate target here just to broaden this out for a moment paige is the the rise in nova i mean i obviously i know this study looks at nova scotia but from data you've seen elsewhere is nova scotia unique example or is this really a more national trend uh with the exception of perhaps alberta which i i know does offer parents a fair bit more choice
00:20:25.060so in terms of enrollment patterns no this is not at all unique to nova scotia every single province in the country recorded growth in the enrollment uh uh to independent schools as a share of the student population and uh and the other thing is homeschooling that's also going up right across the country um so our study looked at uh 2001 to 2019-20 um and so it's it's a broad kind of look there and we see that again in every
00:20:55.040single province there is a greater share of students that are now attending independent schools growth in that enrollment and a greater share of students that are homeschooling growth in that enrollment as well homeschooling is a very small proportion of kids overall in canada um that are that are making that choice for their family but it is also growing so really the i guess the takeaway here is that more and more families despite in half the country it being very financially difficult because in ontario in nova
00:21:23.040scotia and across atlantic canada there's absolutely no financial support for those families they're paying their tax dollars to government public schools and none of those tax dollars are following following their child to the school that they're actually choosing for them and yet they are still making that choice they're still making the financial sacrifice involved um and and so basically a greater share of families are just seeking alternative education for their kids but it's not only good news for those families because research shows
00:21:53.040that's the best choice policies in place which enable more children to find the schools that are the best fit for them actually improves results right across the board so one of the takeaways for nova scotia for example
00:22:05.040or a province like ontario might be that enabling even more families to make these choices would be a good idea because not only does research show in an increase in uh student achievement in in student tests but it also shows reduced absences reduced suspensions
00:22:23.040just better results across the board not only in the those independent schools that families are choosing but actually in the government public schools as well because a rising tide lifts all boats right the competition is good
00:22:34.480and really that's what is born out in the research so if if provinces like nova scotia like ontario are looking
00:22:41.360to increase the diversity in their education systems these kinds of school choice policies where the money follows
00:22:46.880the student are a really great place to start well and just i mean one glaring thing that comes up from a policy
00:22:52.480perspective is that you'd think in theory public schools would be improving as students leave because the uh they're still
00:22:59.360getting the same amount of money but having to serve a fewer amount of students but that's not happening so the issue is
00:23:03.680not a funding one which is i think what we often hear from a lot of advocates well we need to better fund public
00:23:08.480schools yeah i also just want to be clear about something it's not that they're doing um you know the
00:23:14.000the sort of the old refrain that oh we have to do more with less they're actually getting just more overall
00:23:19.440and it's it's that accounts for enrollment growth and that accounts for inflation so per student inflation
00:23:25.680adjusted spending in government public schools is up across the board um the only two provinces
00:23:32.000where that is is not the case where per student so overall spending increase but per student inflation
00:23:37.680adjusted spending in saskatchewan and alberta has decreased in every other province and certainly
00:23:44.160nationally when you look at the average has increased so so even if there are students that
00:23:49.520are leaving going to other options we're still pouring more money into the government public school
00:23:54.080system on a per student basis there's still more money going in so more money really isn't solving the
00:24:00.320problem if there's not been a year where okay we're seeing large decreases and this that can account
00:24:05.040for the flaws that we're seeing in the government public school system um i think there's there's
00:24:10.320other issues that we should be looking at you know whether it's that we've moved away from the kind of
00:24:14.960content-rich curricula in our public schools where we give kids that solid foundation of fact-based
00:24:20.640learning that makes it easier for them to then have critical thinking and comprehension skills later
00:24:25.440we've moved away from phonics in our reading programs for example a lot of the policies have
00:24:30.080made it more difficult for teachers to actually have leadership and empowerment over their classrooms
00:24:36.080and so we do see this increase in in bullying and classroom violence um and uh and it's it's there's
00:24:42.240there's big challenges for sure that that we're facing in our government public school systems
00:24:46.960more money is not solving the problem so perhaps we should be looking at you know the bigger issues here
00:24:52.800that are at play well you can read uh page's latest on this at the fraser institute website
00:24:58.240more nova scotia families choosing independent schools despite lack of government support page
00:25:03.440mcpherson always a pleasure thanks for coming on today thank you so much andrew all right well
00:25:08.960moving along here well hang on i i want to just do a little bit of an indulgence before we go let's uh
00:25:14.160let's put this photo up that i i sent you earlier sean yeah that's uh me on the right there and on the
00:25:20.640the left well i guess just center right sitting next to me my old friend uh jonathan manmarin you've
00:25:25.520heard him and seen him on the show before fantastic author and pro-life activist and i often credit
00:25:31.600him for being the inspiration behind my book the freedom convoy in the sense that he gave me the kick
00:25:36.800in the pants to write the book myself because i kept complaining that i wanted to read it we were
00:25:40.960actually on friday evening at a book event in norwich that i had the great privilege of speaking to
00:25:47.120that's uh in a small town in southwestern ontario and i just did kind of on the spur of the moment
00:25:53.040said well jonathan why don't you just sit down and interview me and do like an actual fireside chat
00:25:58.000oftentimes the term gets misused but as you can see we were uh genuinely in front of a fire there well
00:26:03.840as it happens jonathan co-authored a fantastic piece in the european conservative that i think is
00:26:09.520a must read for pretty much anyone and everyone who's ever been paying attention to this andrew
00:26:15.040tate business now i want to say on this show i've shied away from it not because i i'm afraid of
00:26:22.080tackling this issue head-on but i've shied away from it oftentimes because i believe people like
00:26:26.400andrew tate don't deserve any sympathy and i think people on the right oftentimes
00:26:30.880uh very instinctively like to respond to people being canceled or attacked in the media with the
00:26:36.400presumption that there must be something virtuous about those people because so often cancel culture is
00:26:42.000unjust and unfair but andrew tate is the exception to the rule i think he deserves to be condemned
00:26:48.000he deserves to be criticized this is a man who by his own definition if you accept his own words to
00:26:53.680say nothing of those of anyone around him he is a manipulator and a pimp he is someone who has made his
00:26:59.840fortune from human trafficking and i don't view him as being this bulwark against cancel culture or in
00:27:06.800favor of any values that i as someone on the right wish to hold well uh jonathan van maron what wrote
00:27:12.240in the european conservative a piece that went deep inside andrew tate's operation and affirms why i
00:27:18.960believe my position was the correct one the piece is called inside andrew tate's war room and jonathan
00:27:25.520van maron joins me now jonathan good to talk to you thanks again for your help on friday night at that event
00:27:30.720oh it was awesome great to be with you again so i mean just for people that haven't paid attention to
00:27:35.760this in some ways this is just an online story the only people that i've ever heard say anything
00:27:42.000favorable but andrew tate are people that have said it on twitter where we tend to see this reflection
00:27:46.800of the world that isn't necessarily consistent with the one outside of it but clearly he is real he's a
00:27:52.080real person he's made real money he has real fans and i would say he has real victims so why did he
00:27:59.200attract your attention in the first place yeah well like like you and a lot of other people i didn't
00:28:05.120hear about him first online and it was one of these influencers that popped up and at first i just kind
00:28:09.920of ignored him because he seemed to be one of these guys who was really fixating on this sort of
00:28:15.600manosphere critique of feminism but also a lot of workout tips and stuff like that not particularly
00:28:21.440interesting but um as you know i do a lot of presentations on the dangers of pornography at high
00:28:26.880schools and his name started coming up among young guys at christian schools all the time and that's
00:28:32.960what kind of prompted me to start looking into him a little bit more and i realized that he may just
00:28:37.680be an online phenomenon but as you know online phenomenon have real world impact and this guy had
00:28:44.320billions of views on tiktok alone he has legions of young male followers and he was essentially using
00:28:52.000these very clever social media clout tactics to accrue enormous numbers of impressionable young men
00:28:58.880with sort of an influencer prosperity gospel version of toxic masculinity and then leveraging those fans
00:29:06.240into paying into his online courses uh things like the war room uh the the phd course or pimp and hose
00:29:13.120degree and hustler university and these are just one of the many ways andrew tate has made an obscene
00:29:19.520amount of money for years there have been these people that have kind of made a fortune and a name on this
00:29:25.840pickup culture stuff i mean you had tucker max back in the day roosh uh whatever his last name was
00:29:32.320this is i i'd say far more insidious than that because we're not even talking about you know here's how
00:29:37.120you you know put on some confidence and trick a girl into bed i mean what he's telling people is how you
00:29:43.200manipulate and use young girls vulnerable girls and women oftentimes to make money in the porn business
00:29:50.320and you know very explicit is what he's doing and talking about doing there and he takes great pride
00:29:56.240and joy into it and i mean you and i disagree on a number of things in the sense that i'm a libertarian
00:30:00.800and you are not so this but this is me not me making a a legal or moral judgment about any individual
00:30:07.360people that for whatever reason may choose to go into this he is not an example of that nor are the
00:30:12.720people that he tries to bring into this world yeah let's unpack that a little bit because i think most
00:30:17.840any listener who's aware of andrew tate will know that he's been charged by the romanian authorities
00:30:22.960on counts of sexual assaults and human trafficking uh he's consistently attempted to downplay the
00:30:28.880charges he's insisted to interviewers like uh tucker carlson and candace owens uh that he's merely being
00:30:35.200uh accused of trying to help uh women make money on tiktok that he never took any of the money for
00:30:40.560himself and so it's really hard i think for people who aren't doing any research into this guy to
00:30:46.400figure out what the truth about him actually is because the public image he projects is of this
00:30:52.080hyper masculine incredibly wealthy role model for young men and that all he's trying to do is telling
00:30:58.480guys to get out of bed to work out to get jacked and to make a lot of money in what he calls the real
00:31:04.800world uh that you know women are only going to want to sleep with somebody who looks like him makes
00:31:09.120money like him drives cars like him he's kind of presenting himself as sort of like uh jordan peterson
00:31:15.680but with muscles and a couple of uh a couple of uh kickboxing championships under his belt and now
00:31:21.920most recently he's announced that he's converted to islam and he makes a pretty big show of talking
00:31:26.720about his muslim values the that's the sort of the public andrew tate but the private andrew tate is
00:31:32.400where things get a lot more interesting because you have to ask yourself how did he make his tens of
00:31:37.440millions of dollars what is he advising the people who are members of his exclusive war room to do
00:31:43.680and that's where things get really interesting because he has now admitted that he made a lot
00:31:49.040of his money um with his brother tristan tate who lives with him in their compound in bucharest romania
00:31:54.880running what's called cam girls or only fans accounts where essentially they partnered in
00:31:59.760their in their in their terms i would say they just partnered with girls and then everybody got rich
00:32:04.000because they put girls on camera subscribers pay to see these girls do various sexual things on camera
00:32:08.800or take their clothes off on camera and this was a mutually beneficial uh relationship and what
00:32:14.000they're being accused of by romanian authorities is utilizing what law enforcement refers to as the
00:32:18.960lover boy method to essentially manipulate young naive girls um into romantic relationships with them
00:32:27.520where they have romantic expectations they think they're in a dating relationship uh these girls
00:32:32.080often think that they're on the way to marriage and family and then use the emotional connection that
00:32:37.120they establish with these girls to manipulate them into what's colloquially referred to as sex work
00:32:42.480in short to get them on camera making money uh for the tates and so he's admitted to doing that
00:32:48.240and in his interviews he lies he says he did that seven to ten years ago um there's uh there's
00:32:53.280rock solid evidence including his own video testimony that he was doing this just a couple of years ago
00:32:58.160he was still doing this during the pandemic and the reality is that the tates built their fortune
00:33:03.520in the pornography industry and interestingly also uh in andrew's case running casinos and so he he
00:33:10.560always talks about how his entire role in life is to break men out of the slave mind and the reality
00:33:16.080is the only reason he got rich to begin with is by pushing products that enslave men which is gambling
00:33:22.880and pornography and it's it's quite rich to watch him condemn pornography now when the reality is that he
00:33:28.880built his entire empire on pornography and as both the recently released indictment by the romanian
00:33:34.800authorities it got released last week indicates as well as the investigation i did with my uh with my
00:33:40.640fellow investigator uh stefan moans indicated um what he's actually been doing is employing psychological
00:33:47.280warfare against naive women and younger girls in order to get them into the porn business uh before we get
00:33:53.680into the war room there's just a fundamental flaw in his side of this argument because the whole point
00:34:00.560whatever people think of it of only fans is that any woman around the world can just open her computer
00:34:07.280and do all those acts that you just mentioned on there and make a lot of money what does he bring to
00:34:12.560that table what what does he contribute to this if not trying to bring a girl or woman in who otherwise
00:34:18.960wouldn't have done is well that's exactly right so if you listen to him in his interviews with with
00:34:25.040tucker carlson and candace owens and one of the reasons honestly um that my friend stefan and i were
00:34:30.960very motivated to kind of try and find a lot of information about what was actually going on is because
00:34:36.800tucker carlson and candace owens are two very significant commentators on the right and when they decided to
00:34:42.080platform uh andrew tate and essentially sympathetically display his case uh to a conservative audience i
00:34:50.240thought it was really important to present a conservative audience with an alternative view
00:34:54.240of what this guy was up to and yeah in his interviews he essentially claimed like look i'm
00:34:58.400being criminalized his words for being nice to girls and for trying to help them make money um when
00:35:06.240the reality is as you point out um you know what's andrew tate necessary for for a girl to go on only cams
00:35:11.600our only fans pardon me right she can just start up an account uh she can start um engaging in
00:35:16.640pornographic behavior and she can make money the reality is that even inside the war room chat logs
00:35:22.400uh both andrew tate and the men who participate in the war room they all emphasize that the strategy here
00:35:29.520is to get girls onto social media to act as what they call thirst traps and to go on to only fans but
00:35:35.760to hold the purse strings and to ensure that all of the money is going directly to tate which is
00:35:41.440why he refers uh to the pimp and hose degree um the way that he does because he took there are pimps
00:35:47.840what do the pimps do pimps get all of the money they financially benefit um from essentially trafficking
00:35:53.520girls in public and the war room that we keep referring to here this is his i guess what self-help
00:36:00.400training program whatever you want to call it men pay eight thousand dollars a year to be a part of this
00:36:05.520and you know a lot of this you could just say you know well what are these pathetic saps up to but
00:36:10.800i i don't actually view it as that benign when you look at how these men are being told to treat women
00:36:16.080i mean some of the so-called rules that you've reported on that men are told to employ with women
00:36:21.600is that uh no male friends should be allowed you should always be in a position to dominate sex is a
00:36:27.520weapon and not the goal and i mean look in some cases you may find some pathetic guy on his couch that
00:36:32.960looks at this and does nothing with it but you could also see this wave of andrew tates that
00:36:37.920take this and start to put this into effect well let me read you in the context of what you just said
00:36:43.440how andrew tate describes his war room now to all the journalists who are asking him questions
00:36:48.240he describes it as a network of men that promotes self-discipline motivation and confidence building
00:36:53.760while giving members access to thousands of professionals from around the world who encourage
00:36:58.240personal responsibility and accountability emphasizing the importance of taking ownership
00:37:03.040of your choices and actions and this of course is completely primed to let conservatives know that
00:37:09.120he's one of them to let those who are suspicious of mainstream narratives those who are suspicious of
00:37:14.640what he calls the matrix or the matrix or the deep state he's trying to signal to people essentially
00:37:19.600even like you and i that he is one of us and that when the romanian authorities decided to go
00:37:24.560after him and charge him with sexual assault and human trafficking that in fact they were merely
00:37:29.680persecuting him for holding traditional views and that's just some feminist witch hunt that that type
00:37:35.200of attitude yeah exactly in fact he said to guys like piers morgan like look any of us can be accused
00:37:40.400of this at any time and end up in precisely the same situation that i am and the way that we did our
00:37:46.560investigation is actually uh we got from a source um thousands of pages of private chat logs from the war room
00:37:53.840that show what andrew tate is actually teaching now these documents the document cache that we have
00:37:59.440access to and that we went through to build our investigation um that was published at the european
00:38:04.560conservative were verified by the bbc um as well as uh rolling stone magazine they went through these uh
00:38:12.160some of these documents and they came to different conclusions on other issues we were mainly focused on
00:38:17.600what is andrew tate doing with the war room and what is he teaching the men and what we broke down
00:38:23.680with the rules etc that we detailed was essentially what he's doing is trying to teach the men to
00:38:29.120well pimp hoes as as phd actually says um that's how he refers to women he refers to women as um
00:38:35.680people who are merely programmed and the goal of a member of the war room is to deprogram them and then
00:38:41.360reprogram them to be doing sex work and we open our investigation with a with a pretty i think you'd
00:38:46.960agree chilling story of his conversation with a young woman named jasmina valentina who he met and
00:38:53.440and she completely falls for him and then she says to him um i'm religious i believe in god i don't
00:38:59.280believe in posting you know lingerie pictures i don't believe in doing only fans um i have some moral
00:39:04.960boundaries um but if you're loyal to me then i'm completely loyal back to you i would make a great
00:39:10.160wife and she's clearly hoping this relationship goes in that direction and so what he does for
00:39:15.680the men of the war room is he actually screenshots his whatsapp conversations with jasmina and then
00:39:21.520posts them on the war room with his commentary of what he's doing so he can walk them step by step
00:39:28.000through the way he psychologically manipulates her and you have all these comments coming in
00:39:33.440saying oh you should try this next or that was a really clever move and he says look no women
00:39:38.560believe in god if she says she believes in god all you've got to do is deprogram her and then
00:39:43.360reprogram her and you see step by step him psychologically manipulating her to isolate
00:39:49.360her from her friends and her family and then once she's isolated essentially say don't ever leave the
00:39:54.480house that i've put you in um otherwise you're clearly not invested in this relationship and she's
00:39:59.360in the house conveniently uh with the woman who does a lot of the only fans business for him who was
00:40:05.120incidentally arrested with the tates and also charged uh with human trafficking later and in
00:40:10.720the indictment that was released too when her name shows up she's very frequently talks about beating
00:40:15.120the girls to keep them in line and things like that and to give you one specific example this girl
00:40:20.480thinks that she's in this relationship with tate and he tells her um that he has heard from somebody
00:40:26.400in her hometown that she used to work in a sex club and then he tells the men of the war room i just
00:40:30.880made that up i made that up to scare her and then to isolate her and so you read through the messages
00:40:36.080and she's freaking out and saying i never did that and he said well you're obviously never going back
00:40:39.920to your hometown again i only want you going out with me to prove that i can trust you and so she
00:40:44.240agrees and he reports back to the men look now she'll never go back to her hometown again she'll
00:40:49.440never go back to her family and friends i don't want her seeing friends when she should be working
00:40:53.280on cam for me and we we begin the investigation basically going step by step through his initial
00:40:59.280conversations with her all the way down to her him breaking her down and getting her to agree to
00:41:04.640do only fans and it's a it's really chilling and disturbing stuff so to put this in the context of
00:41:11.920i mean you you've sort of breezed by it here but we saw candace owens and tucker carlson do
00:41:17.840two what i would say are rather atrocious interviews with andrew tate i mean i i've never
00:41:22.640really been a fan of candace owen i i've liked a lot of work tucker carlson has done this interview
00:41:28.000he had no pushback i mean when i mentioned a couple of months back some criticisms of andrew
00:41:33.120tate on twitter people were saying well just watch his interview with tucker carlson i said that's the
00:41:36.880the problem is that there was no pushback there was no challenging him even with his own stated
00:41:41.760opinions on on things and his own stated approach to things why has the right in your view and i know
00:41:47.680this goes beyond your investigation but why have so many on the right been so quick to embrace him is
00:41:52.720it just that contrarian impulse i alluded to before where we're so used to being cancelled and
00:41:57.200marginalized that when we see someone being cancelled we just assume it's it's unjust or
00:42:01.200do you think there's something else here i think it's multiple things i certainly do think it's the
00:42:05.840contrarian position because i think that a lot of figures on the right now essentially react to
00:42:10.640things with a hermeneutic of suspicion which is the mainstream narrative is always wrong and we must
00:42:16.160adopt uncritically the opposite narrative the i would differentiate between the two interviews the
00:42:21.760the reason the tucker interview was so appalling to me was because he goes to visit two guys who
00:42:28.400have just been charged with sex trafficking and in the first the interview is over two hours long
00:42:32.720in the first 40 minutes he basically asks him a few softball questions about the case and then
00:42:39.920takes tate's view completely without pushback um tate says oh you know i'm getting persecuted for
00:42:46.160being nice to girls and for helping them make money on tiktok and at no point does tucker even you know
00:42:51.680look down refer to the actual indictment say well actually this is what the indictment says what do
00:42:56.080you have to say to that he was not asked to respond to any of the actual allegations which
00:43:01.280any journalist who's interviewing somebody charged of crimes would likely ask them to respond to what
00:43:07.360they're actually when you have no limitation of time i mean you flew all the way over there you
00:43:11.680could surely take the five minutes to ask that very basic question yes yeah it was just bizarre
00:43:16.880and then tucker basically says yeah i i believe you and they move on and spend two hours chortling
00:43:21.920a while tucker asks him various questions about different you know american political scenarios
00:43:27.840on throat throat which um tate shows phenomenal ignorance about almost every topic that he's asked
00:43:34.240about because they're just not his wheelhouse so um he talks about pornography which is ironic that um
00:43:39.920you know tucker's asking a a pornographer uh for his views on pornography but even in his attempt
00:43:45.280to condemn some forms of pornography tate gets the science and the sociology wrong he gets everything
00:43:50.240about transgenderism wrong but it was basically just a bro fest candace owens came in and the difficulty
00:43:55.520with candace owens is that her style is a is a toxic fusion of hubris and ignorance where she seems to
00:44:02.320think she knows a lot about a lot of subjects but again walked in with no research done whatsoever she
00:44:06.640asked him a couple of questions um so she presumably done a little bit of research beforehand but again
00:44:12.960very simple disprovable claims like why am i getting persecuted for things that i did 10 years ago we all
00:44:18.640regret things we did a long time ago tate says about his work in the porn business when there's videos all
00:44:24.400over the place of recent interviews he did talking about um his cam girl business only a couple of years
00:44:30.160ago i'm talking 2020 2021 and 2022 you didn't have to get private chat logs from the war room like our
00:44:37.680investigation did to know that he was lying every step of the way in his interview with candace and
00:44:43.920tucker tucker for sure has an entire research team nobody with an operation that big doesn't have
00:44:49.680researchers who couldn't have handed him the answers to questions without him having to dive into the
00:44:54.320internet himself um candace owens clearly wanted to believe him um her defense of her uh of her
00:45:00.720interview with him online was like frankly pathetic because she screwed it up uh she didn't do a good
00:45:06.800job she didn't do research ahead of time easily available information uh she did not utilize and the
00:45:12.480whole thing struck me as odd considering the fact that she uh went scorched earth on stephen crowder when
00:45:18.000those videos of of him being uh an awful person to his wife were released so she went after him and
00:45:23.280called him an abuser and all kinds of names and then somebody who admitted to beating a woman in
00:45:28.880his interview with her and admitting to having done pornography but just lying about how long ago
00:45:33.440it was etc basically got a free pass from her um it's really really hard to figure out unless you take
00:45:41.680the incredibly cynical approach of just saying she was clout chasing which is probably the simplest answer
00:45:47.680yeah well to put a trite little bow on this the enemy of your enemy is not in fact always
00:45:52.720your friend the piece at the european conservative is a very important one to read and again don't
00:45:57.280get sucked into this belief that just because uh people you don't like don't like someone that they
00:46:02.480are worthy of your admiration or support inside andrew tate's war room at europeanconservative.com
00:46:08.400jonathan van maron always a pleasure sir thanks for coming on thanks so much andrew that does it for
00:46:14.480us for today we'll be back tomorrow with a very special edition of the andrew lawton show a full
00:46:20.720sit down with my colleague candace malcolm back from maternity leave with lots of great plans
00:46:25.360you'll hear a little bit about that tomorrow but in the meantime thank you god bless and a good day to
00:46:29.920you all thanks for listening to the andrew lawton show support the program by donating to true north