On today's show, Andrew Lawton talks about the latest in fake news stories, including a report that police found cocaine on a plane carrying Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. And he talks about a story about Nazi veteran Yaroslav Hunka's recognition in the House of Commons.
00:01:00.000welcome to canada's most irreverent talk show this is the andrew lawton show brought to you by true
00:01:20.440north hello and welcome to you all this is another edition of canada's most irreverent talk show here
00:01:31.360on true north i'm so sorry we were almost starting a few minutes late you see i was a bit delayed
00:01:36.940uh you wouldn't believe it a bunch of these uh police and dogs just got on my plane on the way
00:01:42.500here and they accused me of all sorts of horrific things they uh suggested i might have had cocaine
00:01:47.500on board. But no, nothing like that happened. In fact, I've never heard of anything like that
00:01:52.640happening anywhere in the news as of late. I am kidding. Of course, the people in the live,
00:01:58.780I wasn't even going to mention this story, but people in the live chat apparently are demanding
00:02:02.360like Trudeau detained in India because of cocaine stories. And I am a firm believer in giving the
00:02:08.080people what they want. Let me just say there is zero evidence so far to support this claim that
00:02:15.060was made on Indian TV by some former Indian diplomat that Justin Trudeau's plane didn't
00:02:20.720have mechanical failures. It was that police from India boarded and found cocaine or something like
00:02:26.660that. I saw this thing like swirling around on Twitter a few days ago and didn't really pay
00:02:32.640much heed to it. I looked into it and couldn't find anything to substantiate it. And then the
00:02:36.880Toronto Sun picked it up, not saying authoritatively that it happened, but just saying that India had
00:02:42.560accused it of happening or some people in india and i i have heard from one reporter that was on
00:02:48.660the trip who i i know and trust that no one boarded the plane at all and you know journalists
00:02:54.380were on the plane so i feel like it would probably have gotten out even with how sycophantish some of
00:02:59.820them are if like drug sniffing dogs had gotten aboard and and whatnot but it's a fun story
00:03:05.780alas it appears to be at this point fiction so don't get too too excited just you don't here's
00:03:11.280the thing about Justin Trudeau. He wins when the fake news stories circulate because he gives
00:03:16.360enough real news stories to justify criticizing him. You don't need the fake news stories. But
00:03:21.480when there are these faker stories that go around, it allows them to kind of hide behind it and say,
00:03:26.420oh, well, it's all just fake news and misinformation and all that. And that is not what we try to do
00:03:32.140on this show. In fact, we try to do the opposite. And I'll say I never like doing this too much,
00:03:37.560but I've been working on a story about Chrystia Freeland that I'm going to have coming out
00:03:42.600afterwards. I'm just waiting to, you know, get a couple of my ducks in a row. And at a certain
00:03:46.920point, like this government has done enough that we don't need to manufacture stuff. So that is my
00:03:53.220little PSA here. Sorry to be a buzzkill. I know you probably were so excited. I was going in one
00:03:57.400particular direction at the beginning, but I am going to be talking a little bit more on this
00:04:02.280program about the recognition of that Nazi veteran Yaroslav Hunka in the House of Commons
00:04:08.900on Friday, a chapter that has, as we say in the media business, legs. This is a story that keeps
00:04:15.900on going. It keeps on delivering. And it's one that the government has not been able to just
00:04:21.180shake. They have tried to shake it. They've tried to basically claim that this was all just Anthony
00:04:26.380wrote us doing the speaker of the house and now as of yesterday he is outgoing his role is going
00:04:32.700to be filled by someone else on tomorrow's or in tomorrow's sitting in the house of commons but
00:04:38.300i'll play a little bit from his resignation announcement for you
00:04:43.420is above any of us therefore i must step down as your speaker
00:04:48.860I reiterate my profound regret for my error in recognizing an individual in the House
00:04:56.360during the Joint Address to Parliament of President Zelensky.
00:05:00.660That public recognition has caused pain to individuals and communities,
00:05:05.740including the Jewish community in Canada and around the world,
00:05:08.820in addition to survivors of Nazi atrocities in Poland, among other nations.
00:05:13.680i accept full responsibility for my actions my resignation is effective at the end of the
00:05:22.280sitting day tomorrow wednesday september 27th to allow preparations for the election of a new
00:05:28.340speaker until that time the deputy speakers will chair the house proceedings thank you merci
00:05:36.700we saw the deputy speaker who's actually a conservative chris d'antremont take over
00:05:44.000yesterday during question period which is usually presided over not by one of the deputy speakers but
00:05:49.480by the speaker of the house himself so he is outgoing and look he clearly made a grievous
00:05:55.780error in judgment and as he was reading i don't we don't have the clip today and i don't need to
00:06:00.460play it again but as he was reading that recognition of Yaroslav Hunka it looked at a
00:06:06.340certain point like he was kind of just taking that moment of okay he fought against the Russians
00:06:12.780maybe there's something there but then he kept going he called him a Ukrainian hero and a Canadian
00:06:18.480hero and he paused for members of that chamber to stand up and give Mr. Hunka that standing ovation
00:06:26.380which is very undeserved, and virtually every MP, if not every MP who was part of it, has said so
00:06:32.960in the days since. This happened five days ago. Originally, it was from a couple of these corners
00:06:40.120of the internet that are often disregarded that we're talking about this. Of course, because
00:06:45.140Jewish people were in the throes of Shabbat at first, and then preparations for Yom Kippur,
00:06:50.260They probably didn't tweak to it as early as they would have.
00:06:54.740And what was interesting is that all of this effectively came down to people in independent media that noticed this and eventually sought for some accounting on this.
00:07:06.200And the government has ever since tried to devote 100% of the blame on Anthony Rota.
00:07:12.160They've tried to make him a black box of shame here so that nothing penetrates into their side of the aisle.
00:07:20.260The Conservatives, as I mentioned yesterday, have been the ones trying to throw Anthony
00:07:47.260This week, it looks like he's going to come to you, Speaker, and ask you to leave
00:07:51.540and to take the garbage out with you on the way out.
00:07:53.840Is that really what this government wants to show to Canadians?
00:07:58.720The Honourable Government House Leader.
00:08:02.060Mr. Speaker, again, that Honourable colleague would have seen your statement yesterday,
00:08:07.780heard your apology in the House today, where the Speaker confirmed that this was his decision
00:08:14.320and his decision alone to invite this individual from his riding
00:08:18.860to acknowledge him in the gallery, we were all caught off guard by this.
00:08:25.000We all stood and applauded because we were led to believe
00:08:29.460that this was an individual who he was not.
00:08:32.600And that is something that hurts all of us and embarrasses all of us.
00:08:37.100But there was no prior knowledge from the government.
00:08:39.400we were caught off guard how could we have known now karina gould as we learned was one of the few
00:08:49.060mps to actually have a photograph taken up close and personal with yarislav hunka she was uh standing
00:08:56.180oh my i didn't even tell sean i was using that he just like plucked that out in like one second's
00:09:01.060notice good job sean uh there she is with her hand clasping mr hunka's hand smiling with anthony
00:09:07.780Rhoda smiling with, I believe, Yaroslav's son, who we're told initiated this exchange with Anthony
00:09:14.540Rhoda that got that man invited in the first place. So Karina Gould has actually had more
00:09:19.540interaction with this guy than anyone else in the House of Commons so far as we know. So for her to
00:09:25.220say, I mean, what were they talking about? Like, seriously, did she just walk by in the hall, pose
00:09:30.760for the photo and leave without speaking to him? Did she stop and ask him about his service? Did
00:09:35.260Did she say, oh, wow, you know, he, sir, when, how, how did he fight against the Russians?
00:09:39.580When, when did he fight against the Russians?
00:09:41.260Anything prior to 1945 should have made even the biggest failure in the high school history class realize, well, hey, okay, but, but the Russians in, in World War II, they were on, like, and I'm not saying Karina Gould was a failure in history.
00:09:59.580She is a very smart and intelligent woman, which is why it's all the more shameful that she, like others, is saying, well, how could we have known?
00:10:12.080People have pointed to conservatives and said, well, you know, they were up there cheering, too.
00:10:17.400Absolutely. Because at that point, you know, I don't blame individual members of parliament, individual MPs for clapping when they're being introduced to this guy.
00:10:27.340he didn't say during World War II in his remarks that I can recall. So I can understand them just
00:10:32.800saying, oh, well, he's up there. He's a veteran. We're being told he's a Ukrainian veteran who
00:10:36.580fought off the Russians. Okay, great. He must be a good guy. And it's in that moment where I don't
00:10:42.320necessarily blame people for clapping, but it's beyond that. Anyone who was speaking at any point
00:10:50.800with this guy or with his family or with Anthony Roda that should have been part of a pregnant
00:10:55.820pause on what this guy was. I was, for this story I have coming out at two o'clock Eastern today,
00:11:01.640I was speaking with a Ukrainian professor who's a very pro-Ukraine guy, and he said this is
00:11:07.420shameful. He said, Ukrainians, no Ukrainian in their right mind, he told me, would support
00:11:13.120honoring someone in this. He said, yes, there's a complicated history, and yes, Ukrainians have
00:11:17.620had to undergo a historical reckoning to that effect, but it's because of that that no one
00:11:22.860would celebrate someone in this way in the right mind. Now, I should say I had one person tell me
00:11:29.420that they were suspecting it was so, so clear and so obvious and so brazen that this must have been
00:11:35.580a setup. Now, I don't know who they're blaming for the setup. Was it Pierre Polyev? There's been
00:11:39.820some of the true anons on Twitter making that claim. Was it Russia that, you know, got this guy
00:11:45.800to call up Anthony Roda and got Anthony Roda to issue the invitation? Who knows? Maybe there was
00:11:50.380some four-dimensional chess, or maybe it was just this shameful and regrettable aberration in Canada.
00:11:56.640But the thing is, when we were talking about India, which was the big story for all of five
00:12:01.860minutes, we said, or I said on this show, that Justin Trudeau has surrendered the benefit of
00:12:08.060the doubt. And I keep coming back to this because it's so important. His record on governing in
00:12:12.920Canada, his record on foreign policy is such that no one can look at him and say, well, I'm sure he
00:12:18.220meant well anymore because there has been blunder after blunder after blunder. And why that's so
00:12:24.520important here is because when something comes up of this nature on this scale, no Canadian is buying
00:12:30.320into the idea that the most micromanaging, centralized, powerful PMO was not involved in
00:12:38.720many stages of the vetting process of who was up in the House of Commons in the coveted speakers
00:12:45.020gallery. That's what's happening here. No one believes what Trudeau is saying. Now, I'm not
00:12:49.980saying Justin Trudeau personally had knowledge of or orchestrated this guy's invitation or
00:12:54.840recognition, but I do think it's very implausible that no one outside of Anthony Roda and a couple
00:13:01.040of the staffers that he may have in his office was aware of this given the nature of it. And if not,
00:13:06.420the most charitable interpretation, the most charitable response to all of this
00:13:11.300is just how profoundly dumb people in that office are.
00:13:15.700Like, that's how bad things are with this government,
00:13:18.120that they have to be like, okay, okay,
00:13:50.240Let's talk about that for a moment. I mean, virtue signaling has been, I'd say, the most consistent
00:13:54.500thing resembling ideology that this government has been bound by. And you're saying this is
00:14:00.380really the consequence of that on full display here yet again.
00:14:04.640Everything they seem to do is virtual signaling. The government's incapable of apologizing to make
00:14:09.280mistakes as you said um the pmo's office had to know what was going on with this i mean that's
00:14:14.320as you said it's a very tightly controlled group so he doesn't get the benefit of your comments so
00:14:19.280true andrew i mean there's been scandal after scandal after scandal the country's becoming an
00:14:23.620international embarrassment and trudeau just doesn't get it and he doesn't care and i don't
00:14:27.900think he andrew isn't capable of apologizing i don't think it's in his blood yeah and i was
00:14:33.600wondering if you could extrapolate on that or elaborate on that rather a little bit more
00:14:37.720Because that's, I'd say, been one of the very recurring themes in this government is that the level of shamelessness when they have been caught in one of the myriad scandals going back to, you know, vacationing with the Aga Khan, which seems just quaint by today's standards of scandal and even SNC-Lavalin and getting caught in blackface.
00:14:55.000Like somehow it becomes a learning opportunity and a growth opportunity for everyone but Trudeau.
00:15:02.640I mean, the quality of people like Philippot and Raybalt and Morneau and all the people that have to leave that party because of mistakes that Trudeau make, he's incapable of taking blame.
00:15:13.740I mean, the thing that strikes me with Trudeau is he's too cute by half.
00:15:17.200He thinks he's the smartest person in the room.
00:15:20.140And I would say a lot of times he's far from that to be charitable.
00:15:23.460And every scandal that's gone on, it's always been it's a learning issue for Canadians, like the same thing with Rota having to retire a Speaker of the House.
00:15:30.760It has nothing to do with Canadians, other than we're being embarrassed and shamed.
00:15:34.160It's all to do with Trudeau making a mistake of a massive scale.
00:15:38.340As you said, it's on the heels of the debacle in India.
00:15:41.580Everything he does is through such a narrow prism of things that he thinks are important to the country.
00:15:47.620This isn't the way a country should be run.
00:15:49.580He should care what Canadians feel as far as our values, and he could care less.
00:15:53.420Well, at one point, and I'm going far afield here, so feel free to rein me back in if you need to, Peter.
00:15:58.380But this is a government that has often not focused too much effort on the idea of promoting any sort of nationalism or nationality for Canadians.
00:16:06.900The idea of citizenship, which used to be a very core concept in Canada, certainly under conservative governments, is no longer regarded as such by this government.
00:16:16.340And it's odd how that sort of creeps up in weird ways.
00:16:19.500So this Nazi veteran was being introduced as a Canadian hero.
00:16:24.180Well, we have statues being torn down of what I would call bona fide Canadian heroes all across this country.
00:16:48.480We deserve the solid resources of the world.
00:16:50.060and all Trudeau cares about in his narrow prism is gender equality and climate change and those
00:16:55.840two issues while they're important are not the top issues for most Canadians are trying to get by
00:16:59.800and they're getting screwed by carbon taxes and things that make no sense and they're driving up
00:17:04.600food prices but he's incapable Andrew of doing anything about it because he believes in his
00:17:10.560views nobody in the party's strong enough to stand up to the guy and say look at you're on the wrong
00:17:14.360track they're all afraid of getting re-elected and that's a symbol of politician that days are
00:17:18.820past. I mean, eight to 10 years in politics, people are tired of seeing your face. They're
00:17:23.000tired of Trudeau, clearly. Well, you say that about, you know, gender equality and climate
00:17:28.400change, and it's actually disgraceful how correct you are. Like if Hitler had committed to gender
00:17:33.780parity in the SS leadership, Justin Trudeau would say, well, you know, you got to hand it to him.
00:17:38.120You know, it's actually not that big of a joke if you think about it, given how the government
00:17:43.260talks about china which is you know one of the big villains in the global geopolitics today but
00:17:50.060they say oh well you know they're partners in climate at least yeah but they're not china's
00:17:54.740not doing it but if we want to solve like we're 1.5 of the world's greenhouse gases if we want
00:17:59.380to solve that problem we'd ship natural gas to china we're never going to go to zero and it's
00:18:03.720a mug's game to think we're going to do that and until china and india get on board we we can't
00:18:08.200get there and if we want our country to thrive oil and gas has to thrive too because it creates a lot
00:18:12.760of high paying jobs, pays a lot of taxes. And this 2030 nonsense as far as being net zero is
00:18:18.100absolute nonsense. Anybody with a brain knows that's not possible. Yes, we should do our piece
00:18:23.560to try and reduce our emissions. And we are probably the cleanest developer of natural
00:18:28.000resources in the world. Why don't we start doing what's right as far as climate change instead of
00:18:32.500gerrymandering just nonsensical agreements and deadlines that just don't make any sense and will
00:18:36.500not work. One of your predecessors at the National Citizens Coalition is a man that some people may
00:18:42.680know, by the name of Stephen Harper, who did a great deal of work in the NCC role and then
00:18:48.280eventually in government in Canada. And, you know, there were obviously negative news stories about
00:18:53.300Stephen Harper. No government is immune from scandal. No governments were ever able to get
00:18:59.300through without some criticism. I mean, Stephen Harper had the Mike Duffy scandal as being a
00:19:03.660notable one, which I thought was blown way out of proportion. But that's a story for another day.
00:19:08.920The thing about it, though, is that there seems to be a relentlessness in the Trudeau government, who's been in power now for two years fewer than Stephen Harper was.
00:19:20.720And the number of big scandals that have rocked this government has vastly expanded that of Stephen Harper's time.
00:19:28.480But, of course, with the media's approach to that, there's a bit of a double standard.
00:19:32.420It's true. I was talking with Stephen Harper in the summer. I said, where do you think we are on the international stage?
00:19:38.560He said, he said, the worst thing is our allies don't respect us anymore.
00:20:54.000So I can say first and foremost that it's got legs there.
00:20:57.420But do you think this is the type of thing that actually matters to real Canadians beyond the Jewish community?
00:21:03.760Yeah, I think it does, because people are offended by one of their most holiest of holidays.
00:21:08.040This thing pops up and just an incredible embarrassment to their community and what happened to their people in World War II and other times.
00:21:15.260And I do think it does, because if I was a liberal MP right now, Andrew, that won my riding by 5% last time, I'd be looking for a new job.
00:21:23.120The media tried to vilify Paulio for the longest time, and he's got some growing to do too,
00:21:28.160but I like the way he's headed. He's talking about common sense issues that people care about.
00:21:32.880And I do think that people are saying, he's been around for eight years, I can't really
00:21:37.520count on what he's going to do going forward. But I do know his past means he's not going to
00:21:41.040do much proper for Canada going forward. So I'm prepared to look at the alternatives. And I think
00:21:46.160Paulio is doing a good job of that with his platform and what he's saying.
00:21:49.520yeah and i i would actually extend expand on that a little bit because one of the big challenges
00:21:56.540we're seeing here in in this country is that the government very much talks down to canadians
00:22:02.300and it goes back to that pattern i was talking about with scandals whenever the government is
00:22:06.520immersed in them is that it's a learning opportunity for everyone else they kind of
00:22:10.320believe they occupy this moral high ground well it's astounding i mean you saw these
00:22:15.780rabbis in the past week with the muslim groups being supported by mennonites and marching to say
00:22:20.340we want to protect our children and save our children and that group was vilified as a far
00:22:24.720right-wing group i wouldn't think that's the case whatsoever and it's just everything he does
00:22:28.640you're right if he doesn't agree with you is sort of turned back in their face and vilified but
00:22:33.260he is incapable as a leader of listening to what people's points of view are that don't agree with
00:22:37.980him and it's very clear that's the case now and there's nobody in the party that's capable it
00:22:42.220seems to sing Justin this needs to stop it just goes on and on and on and Canada deserves better
00:22:48.580well we know for a fact there were I don't know if you saw this there were some tweets
00:22:53.320uh last night of outside the uh parliamentary precinct where the liberals had some emergency
00:22:59.060a cabinet or caucus meeting at like 9 30 p.m at night so you don't normally have meetings at 9 30
00:23:05.920p.m at night that are not really announced with any notice unless you are in crisis and I mean
00:23:11.440And at a certain point, I'm looking at all the liberal MPs that are in that situation you just described, that maybe they're not true believers, maybe they're softer liberals, or maybe they're in very tight ridings that are looking at these poll numbers, showing the conservatives at well over 40 percent, saying, OK, we can't just keep lecturing people in the way we have for the last eight years.
00:23:30.500We've got to offer something new. And, you know, to be honest, I'm actually amazed it's taken so long for the liberal caucus to grow a little bit of a spine and start asking some questions of its leadership right now.
00:23:41.440Yeah, well, we've got tens of thousands of members across the country,
00:23:44.400and you hear all the time as far as when are we getting back to normal basic values?
00:23:48.620But what strikes me, Andrew, as an issue is when John Kretchen was prime minister,
00:23:53.260like we're a fiscally conservative organization that believes in free speech
00:23:56.240and a strong military and responsible spending.
00:23:59.380Well, Kretchen had guys like Manly and Martin and McKenna that were capable people.
00:24:02.840So even a conservative person like me would say they're doing a decent job
00:24:06.760because at the end of the day as a Canadian, you want the country to succeed
00:24:09.380whether the guy in power is who you support or not there's just no sense there's anybody around
00:24:14.860them that can do what's right uh on issues or values or international relationships and
00:24:19.780i don't know where it ends for for trudeau but it's not going to end up well that's for sure
00:24:23.900because elections two years away i'm shocked that singh is still propping him up but um
00:24:29.040as it goes on and on and on gets further i don't see how true it can get out of this
00:24:33.060it's just it's just who he is yeah i mean dragnit singh found his spine when he was standing up to
00:24:39.360give that ovation on Friday, but he hasn't found a spine at any other point in the last two years
00:24:43.300of Canadian politics. Peter Coleman is with us from the National Citizens Coalition. Good to
00:24:48.900talk to you, Peter. Thanks for coming on today. Thank you, Andrew. Take care of yourself. All
00:24:52.500right. Thank you, sir. Yourself as well. We've had a few questions in the comments. One of them
00:24:58.060in particular I found interesting, and I've seen this asked a lot in various forms. Roger says
00:25:03.360deportation from Canada of every Nazi and their family member should be considered
00:25:07.720as a corrective action of this disgraceful event
00:25:11.260enabled by the current leading minister's actions.
00:28:46.980because it was blocked by the government
00:28:48.460or there was some other procedural reason
00:28:50.800why. I haven't been able to get a satisfactory answer. I emailed Michael Barrett. He never
00:28:55.120responded to me, so I don't know. Maybe I'm on the naughty list, or maybe it's just a busy week in
00:28:59.620Ottawa. I'm kidding. Don't worry. But nevertheless, we will follow the story, and I suspect we'll have
00:29:05.740a bit more on this tomorrow, so I would encourage you to stay tuned on that. I wanted to turn to
00:29:12.020local politics. I mean, all politics that matters is local in some form, but we have seen increasingly
00:29:17.780in Canada, and we can go back to the Freedom Convoy and many years beyond that, a very strained
00:29:23.760relationship between governments and freedom of speech, freedom of expression, the right for you
00:29:29.340not only to have a political opinion, but to express it and even to protest. Protest is one
00:29:35.740of the most important aspects of freedom of expression because freedom of expression is a
00:29:41.520vehicle by which we can seek change in society. We can seek change from government and we can
00:29:46.760seek change from other groups that are doing things we believe are protestable. But some people
00:29:51.820don't like that. And as we've reported at True North, in the city of Calgary, there is a bylaw
00:29:58.600that is now facing a legal challenge. It's a bylaw that establishes a so-called buffer zone
00:30:03.740between protesters and some events. Let's be real, it's not in the bylaw, but this came about as a
00:30:10.820direct response to protests of drag story times and it's a bylaw that restricts your ability to
00:30:18.160protest any event that effectively the government the municipal government deems to be protected
00:30:24.380it's not allowing you to protest with if they believe you are engaging in quote hateful
00:30:30.600messaging we fast forward to another story out of waterloo ontario where there's a proposal
00:30:36.860not yet a bylaw, but a proposal to ban communication that makes people, quote,
00:30:43.140feel harassed, unquote. That's literally from the text of the report, quote, that makes them feel
00:30:49.840harassed. There's a great story up at True North from my colleague, Cosmin Georgia, that I would
00:30:54.780encourage you to take a look at. But to go back to the Calgary bylaw, it's being challenged by
00:30:59.540the Canadian Constitution Foundation. Joanna Barron joins me now, the executive director over there,
00:31:05.520And also one of the co-authors of a great new book about the COVID era policy, which I will certainly have her and her co-author, Christine Van Gein, on to talk about.
00:31:14.960But all that aside, it's good to talk to you, Joanna. Thanks for coming on.
00:31:20.060So let's talk about the reality, I mean, the subtext of this bylaw here, because they're not just going after protest in general.
00:31:26.760You know from the context and the wording, they're going after a very particular type of protest, and they're really targeting it to a very particular type of viewpoint, I would say.
00:31:37.560Well, yes, although it's not as narrow as you would think.
00:31:40.900You're certainly correct that this came out as a response to protests around Drag Queen Story Hour.
00:31:46.580However, the text of the bylaw says bans protests on issues relating to gender, national identity, a whole category that could apply to many things.
00:31:57.880So my colleague Christine pointed out that if you wanted to have a protest about against female genital mutilation, since that is understood to be a cultural and religious practice, that would be caught under the bylaw.
00:32:11.020And so it's actually a sort of wide swath of categories. Even, you know, protesting against climate change would be caught by the bylaw. And so it's a whole category of things. But as you say, the important part to remember is that this is sort of demarcating different types of protests that Calgary City Council are saying are permissible and not permissible, whereas the Supreme Court of Canada has been very clear that the guarantee of freedom of expression is content neutral.
00:32:40.600The state doesn't get to say what I can demonstrate and protest about.
00:32:45.700Well, and on that note, I would also point out here that political speech is the most protected, basically.
00:32:53.660It's, you know, free speech isn't just your right to say, I prefer milk to cream in my coffee or something like that.
00:32:58.780And that's where, you know, the things that need the most protection are the things that are the most prone to being censored or to be reined in.
00:33:08.940Absolutely. And moreover, where there's, as you mentioned, there's buffer zones that are identified in this bylaw, which tend to be, you know, areas of 500 meters close to recreation centers and libraries.
00:33:21.840And first of all, it's hard if you know downtown Calgary, there isn't many areas where you wouldn't find a library or rec center somewhere within 500 meters.
00:33:29.760And like those are the places where civil society tends to gather. So it's a terribly draconian bylaw.
00:33:37.460I would also note that it carries a penalty of up to $10,000 or a term of imprisonment.
00:33:43.700So actually, one of the arguments at the Canadian Constitution Foundation that we're making is that this is, in substance, a criminal law, which city councils is a matter of federal jurisdiction.
00:33:55.080So city councils actually outside of their jurisdiction, not to mention acting unconstitutionally on freedom of expression grounds.
00:34:03.760One of the challenges that comes up here is that when there is, as broadly as it's put, as you shared, Joanna, this bylaw in place, it effectively leaves everything up to discretion, which means it's up to bylaw enforcement to decide on a case-by-case basis whether they want to.
00:34:21.660and it's very East Germany in the sense that they have a law that basically lets them go after
00:34:28.220anyone and everyone and we're just to expect that, well, they'll pick and choose and they'll
00:34:32.400really only go after the people who deserve it. Who is it that gets the authority to decide
00:34:36.880when to apply this? Yeah, completely. The discretion will be left to the police and it
00:34:43.320will be them that decides whether to go ahead and lay charges and we can assume that certain
00:34:49.140politically correct demonstrations that Calgary City Council perhaps agrees with, because this is
00:34:55.440a very clear signal. And we do know from the debates at City Council that indeed they brought
00:35:00.460this about in response to concerns of protests about drag queen story hour. Whereas just to be
00:35:05.940clear, this is not about us taking a position for or against drag queen story hour. I would also add
00:35:11.500that if you were to protest drag queen story hour, and you wanted to run a counter protest in favor
00:35:17.440of drag queen story hour guess what that's also relating to gender and sexuality so that also
00:35:24.020would be prohibited by the bylaw now whether you would be charged we don't know i'll say i know
00:35:30.560you have a big audience but i'll say that within the team of the ccf we talked about maybe if we
00:35:35.400go out to calgary and do our own protest against for example female genital mutilation let's see
00:35:40.760if we get arrested. But we elected not to, and we elected to just seek public interest
00:35:47.520standing to challenge this bylaw. Well, let me ask you about that legal challenge. I mean,
00:35:54.400do you need to wait for someone to be, in your view, unfairly prosecuted or charged under this?
00:36:01.000Or can you affect, it's not a legal term, but can you challenge it on spec? Say, you know,
00:36:05.520irrespective of how and when this is used, it's bad on its face and needs to go.
00:36:09.460So we can say as a public interest charity, and we are a legal charity that has a long track record of fighting for the enforcement of constitutional rights in court, that no, that harm has existed, has happened since this became law.
00:36:23.900And so we're challenging it on the basis of you should be able to look at this law facially, see that it is not content neutral, that it singles out different types of peaceful, constitutionally protected expression, as well as the guarantee for freedom of assembly.
00:36:39.960And you should be able to determine that that is contrary to the Constitution.
00:36:44.400So you can, you know, seek public interest, standing in challenge.
00:36:47.800I wouldn't quite say on spec because there is an important chilling effect, right, that whether or not somebody is actually charged, isn't it disturbing that somebody would have to think, well, I'm not sure if, you know, this, I want to protest Israel or Palestine, either one, for example, but I'm not sure if the Calgary police are going to arrest me.
00:37:10.280we would say at the CCF, you've already done the damage. You've already chilled what is legitimate
00:37:15.460political protected expression. That's actually quite an important point. And I mean, I remember
00:37:22.300when the COVID stuff was going along, I mean, I've never been too much of a rabble. I guess I've
00:37:26.880roused a bit of a rabble in my day. But when there was talk of Ontario potentially doing a curfew,
00:37:32.220I was like, I'm going to be out on the streets at 9pm every night. Like I'm in bed at like 9.30.
00:37:37.360So, like, I would have been doing it purely to be a disturber of the fecal matter.
00:37:41.740But some people would have done the opposite.
00:37:43.900As you've said, say, oh, well, I don't want a ticket, especially when in COVID, as I know
00:37:47.940you'll be writing about in your upcoming book, some of the fines were so steep.
00:37:51.360A lot of people that, you know, just might have been tempted to do something would say,
00:37:55.120you know, I don't want to risk the penalty.
00:37:57.100And I can see that exact thing happening here.
00:37:59.360Someone who says, well, you know, I'm all for protesting, but I don't want to break
00:38:05.580It just like, you know, people said to us that they didn't want to donate to the CCF after the Freedom Convoy, because even though they were pretty sure it was okay, who wants to risk having their bank accounts frozen? And we talk a lot more about that in Pandemic Panic, which is available for pre-order on Amazon now.
00:38:22.120Well, definitely we'll have you and Christine back on that. Let me just ask you about the process here as best as you've been able to unearth it, because I know the federal government in particular, they'll run every bit of legislation by the Department of Justice and supposedly charter proof it or offer recommendations on how to immunize it to some extent against a charter challenge.
00:38:42.740municipalities aren't as well resourced but do we think there was any legal input at all on this
00:38:49.240that we've been able to see where a lawyer gave them the case for why this was justifiable so we
00:38:54.500know for example in terms of process this was rammed through in a single session an extended
00:38:59.940debate on the merits of the bill which we know certain councillors did raise concerns about the
00:39:04.660constitutionality perhaps ones with a legal background but this was pushed through in a
00:39:09.240single session without any extended debate. So we are inclined to think that they did not give
00:39:15.780this extensive legal consideration. And they were quite surprised when we challenged it right out
00:39:22.240the gate. Have you had a chance to review, I know it's not made it into a bylaw yet, but what they've
00:39:28.360proposed in Waterloo, which strikes me as very similar and just the epitome of subjective here,
00:39:34.160things that make you feel harassed. Like I feel harassed sometimes by an ad that I might not like,
00:39:39.900but I don't believe it should be taken down with any force of law.
00:39:43.140Yeah. So the report, the Waterloo report defines being harassed as feeling tormented, troubled,
00:39:48.880worried, plagued, or badgered. And we are actually talking about this this morning on our podcast,
00:39:53.660not reserving judgment. I mean, who doesn't feel badgered on a daily basis? I live in downtown
00:39:58.180Toronto. It's kind of part of the game. That doesn't...
00:40:00.780I feel badgered by charity fundraisers sometimes that you run into in downtown Toronto, but they
00:40:05.240have a right to be there. Well, exactly. So I would say this bylaw is quite bad, but it's actually
00:40:11.360not as bad. Calgary actually has an identical version on street harassment, very similar
00:40:17.740language, but it actually applies everywhere in Calgary, from the sidewalks to the restaurants.
00:40:23.280So it's actually even worse. And we've focused on the protest bylaw, but we certainly are studying
00:40:29.080this. And just to be clear, in a recent case, early 2022 case, the Supreme Court of Canada
00:40:35.200has said that there is no right not to be offended. This is the Mike Ward case where there
00:40:40.200was the Quebec comedian making these edgy jokes. Supreme Court said, you know, you may find this
00:40:45.140distasteful, but in a free society, you have no right not to be offended. That is not a thing.
00:40:51.520And so governments should certainly not be in the business of enacting laws that punish people who
00:40:56.860merely offend others. And my colleague was talking about this morning, how this street harassment
00:41:02.960bill played out in Calgary is kind of funny. There was an argument at a public pool over
00:41:08.380trans people being able to use change rooms of the sex they identify with. And so some individuals
00:41:14.340were protesting against this policy. And then there were counter protesters protesting the
00:41:19.660protests. And so they all ended up offending each other and harassing each other. And both sides
00:41:25.080ended up with street harassment fines, which begs the question, why should the police have been
00:41:30.400involved in this at all? Mutually, yeah, mutually assured destruction there is the way it tends to
00:41:35.780come out here. I'll just make a point here and get you to weigh in as we close, Joanna, because
00:41:40.980oftentimes whenever you talk about free speech or freedom of expression, whether you mean it in a
00:41:45.160legal sense or just the moral sense, you'll get the very predictable response, which is, well,
00:41:49.700that's different than hate speech. And free speech is not the same as hate speech. And, you know,
00:41:54.000obviously there is a criminal prohibition on hate speech in Canada, but what people forget is that
00:41:58.840that still applies without this bylaw. Like if speech is crossing that boundary where it is
00:42:04.700meeting that very high bar to be criminalized, the law already applies. Police already have the
00:42:09.660ability to deal with that. So necessarily a bylaw like this is trying to lower that threshold and
00:42:15.520cover more speech. Yeah. Well, hate speech is already problematic enough because it's such a
00:42:22.240subjective definition, but it is speech that reaches a certain threshold of encouraging
00:42:27.540really hate and perhaps violence against certain groups. But that's already a very problematic
00:42:33.660standard. And so, yes, if you're going to water it down further and say, well, what if you made
00:42:38.280me feel badgered? What if you made me feel harassed? You're just like bringing in more and more
00:42:44.200barriers to free expression, which I totally agree with what you said at the outset. This is how
00:42:49.560free expression is how we work things out in a free society. If we can't work things out through
00:42:54.720conversation, we have to work things out through fists. And that doesn't seem like a particularly
00:43:00.300acceptable solution. Now, is it October 31st? Your book comes out, right? Yes. All right. Nice way to
00:43:07.540scare yourself on Halloween by reading about the dismal state of civil liberties in Canada. It is
00:43:11.820called Pandemic Panic. It is written by Joanna Barron and Christine Van Gein. And I believe I
00:43:17.260am cited in it, if I'm not mistaken. So you were mentioned many times. Well, that's rarely good,
00:43:22.840but I appreciate it very much. And I did have a chance to review an advanced copy and it's a
00:43:27.740wonderful read. So people should definitely check that out. Joanna, thank you so much for coming on.
00:43:32.380Thanks, Andrew. All right. Thank you. That was Joanna Barron from the Canadian Constitution
00:43:37.060Foundation. We will end things there. My thanks to you all for tuning in. We will be back in 23
00:43:43.640three hours and 15 minutes here on Canada's most irreverent talk show on true
00:43:48.080North, the Andrew Lawton show. Thank you. God bless. And good day to you all.
00:43:52.480Thanks for listening to the Andrew Lawton show.
00:43:54.880Support the program by donating to true North at www.tnc.news.