Juno News - February 10, 2021


Attempts to deport former Nazi pit bureaucracy against justice

Mentioned
Andrew Lawton Show Shimon Koffler-Fogel Helmut Oberlander Waterloo
Variable Variants PURGED： A panel discussion on Big Tech censorship

Episode Stats


Length

12 minutes

Words per minute

153.38

Word count

1,951

Sentence count

93

Harmful content

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Something as serious as being involved with the Nazis, being involved in a Nazi killing unit, you d think would warrant swift action from a government. But in Canada, it has been anything but. The Canadian legal system has been working for about 25 years now to deport Helmut Oberlander, now 96, who in his younger years, in the time of the Holocaust and World War II, was a Nazi translator in a killing squad. He made a life for himself in Canada as a developer in the Waterloo area.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.560 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:00:07.320 Something as serious as being involved with the Nazis, 0.94
00:00:11.360 being involved with a Nazi killing unit,
00:00:14.040 you'd think would warrant swift action from a government.
00:00:17.300 But in Canada, it has been anything but.
00:00:19.780 The Canadian legal system has been working for about 25 years now
00:00:23.560 to deport Helmut Oberlander, now 96,
00:00:26.720 who in his younger years, in the time of the Holocaust and World War II,
00:00:31.760 was a translator in a Nazi killing squad.
00:00:34.460 He made a life for himself in Canada as a developer in the Waterloo area.
00:00:38.760 He did not disclose his involvement with the Nazis when he came here,
00:00:42.620 which is really the crux of the government's thrust to try to get him out of Canada.
00:00:47.900 But this has become mired in multiple layers of bureaucracy.
00:00:51.680 And as I said, 25 years after the process was initiated, he's still here.
00:00:55.720 This week, yet another delay as the can was kicked a bit further down the road
00:01:00.620 for a hearing that was supposed to happen.
00:01:03.460 But really underscoring this beyond all the legal arguments
00:01:06.340 is a fundamental question about whether there is a statute of limitations
00:01:10.480 on the forms of crimes in which the Nazis were complicit
00:01:14.520 and those involved with them.
00:01:16.180 Joining me on the line is Shimon Koffler-Fogel,
00:01:18.440 who's the president and CEO of the Center for Israel and Jewish Affairs.
00:01:22.520 Shimon, thank you so much for your time today.
00:01:24.220 Andrew, it's great to be with you again.
00:01:27.460 One of the biggest defenses we've seen of Helmut Oberlander from people is that,
00:01:32.560 well, you know, so much time has passed and he wasn't personally involved
00:01:36.120 and he's made a life for himself.
00:01:38.260 And as he gets older and older, he just starts to look like this frail man
00:01:42.320 and people don't want to throw the book at him, so to speak.
00:01:45.320 Why is it so important, in your view, to continue to prosecute
00:01:48.820 and advocate for justice on these matters?
00:01:51.560 Well, Andrew, as you pointed out, this didn't begin in 2021.
00:01:56.880 This began 26 years ago when he was less frail and less old.
00:02:01.700 And I think the real core is based in your introduction about the question of statute of limitations.
00:02:12.120 Is there a time after which accountability and responsibility for crimes of the proportion
00:02:20.020 that the Nazis committed expire?
00:02:23.760 And our view would be, for multiple reasons, no.
00:02:28.200 Number one, there's a need for justice.
00:02:31.400 There's a need for accountability.
00:02:33.380 And Oberlander, however he might want to portray his involvement with the Nazis,
00:02:38.580 was actively involved in units that actually went from location to location,
00:02:46.420 rounding up Jews, Roma, and other undesirables, and brutally massacred all of them.
00:02:53.460 So there has to be accountability for that.
00:02:55.860 But it goes beyond that, because Oberlander also represents a challenge
00:03:00.820 to our whole refugee and immigration policy.
00:03:04.480 We have a set of criteria and laws that govern how people come into Canada,
00:03:11.640 which, after all, is a refugee intake country.
00:03:14.840 If those are going to be breached, it undermines the credibility of the whole system.
00:03:20.020 And it's under enough strain that we should be able to say with some confidence
00:03:24.260 that the laws are applied evenly, consistently, and across the board.
00:03:29.680 But I would suggest, Andrew, that there's a more compelling reason
00:03:33.860 than either of the ones that I've presented so far.
00:03:37.100 We now live in a time when populism and nationalism
00:03:42.340 has regained a certain entrenchment within society,
00:03:48.120 well beyond Canada, but it certainly includes Canada.
00:03:50.860 And we have a compelling responsibility to remind citizens,
00:03:58.460 especially those who grew up and were born long after the Holocaust,
00:04:03.700 of what potential there is for evil
00:04:07.160 and for the kind of destruction that's associated with the Nazi regime.
00:04:12.180 And if we give a pass to people like Oberlander,
00:04:16.100 we're essentially diminishing and whitewashing the seriousness of what took place,
00:04:23.220 and we can't then apply the lesson of never again.
00:04:27.040 We are so desperate to build a better society, a more inclusive society.
00:04:31.860 But if we allow in that inclusion those who really were the poster children
00:04:38.920 for the exact opposite, then we're really undermining our own efforts.
00:04:43.360 When you say poster children, I feel there's an important dialogue here
00:04:47.420 because, again, one of the defenses that I would appreciate your analysis of
00:04:51.920 or your response to is when people use those terms, just a translator.
00:04:56.360 Well, he wasn't personally the one killing.
00:04:59.280 That distinction, in your view, is relatively irrelevant
00:05:02.840 given the scope of evil the Nazis committed, correct? 0.52
00:05:06.720 Absolutely, Andrew.
00:05:07.680 I think that everybody has the opportunity to do what's right
00:05:12.860 or to acquiesce to what's wrong.
00:05:16.160 A 17-year-old conscript is an adult,
00:05:21.260 is somebody who's able to distinguish between what's morally acceptable
00:05:25.680 and what is reprehensible.
00:05:28.060 If we had had people willing to stand up
00:05:31.340 and push back against the dictate of the Nazis,
00:05:34.300 then we would have had a very different outcome to World War II.
00:05:38.220 So I think that you can't skirt accountability and responsibility
00:05:42.140 for the personal decisions that you make.
00:05:45.300 And it's not as if he was a translator for a weekend
00:05:48.180 when they were in a particular venue.
00:05:51.480 He was with the group.
00:05:52.980 He was attached to it.
00:05:54.060 He continued to operate with them and for them
00:05:57.940 and, in essence, was an enabler of the kind of murder and atrocity
00:06:02.780 that those groups associated.
00:06:05.420 Yeah, and one of the things I should probably point out,
00:06:09.560 I had the great privilege of accompanying a delegation from your organization,
00:06:13.440 the Center for Israel and Jewish Affairs to Israel,
00:06:16.260 back in 2015,
00:06:17.980 and visit Yad Vashem, which is the Holocaust Museum,
00:06:20.980 and speak with a number of the people
00:06:22.480 who have devoted their lives to studying
00:06:24.600 and preserving this horrific chapter in history.
00:06:28.040 And one of the things that came up,
00:06:30.420 and I've seen, especially in talking to younger Jewish people,
00:06:33.960 is how the more time that passes between the Holocaust and now,
00:06:38.940 the more abstract it becomes.
00:06:40.920 And the fewer living survivors of it,
00:06:43.900 people who have survived the Holocaust but have succumbed to old age,
00:06:47.460 the harder it is to have that living memory.
00:06:49.900 And in a lot of cases, Holocaust indifference is a big problem.
00:06:53.300 And you raised an important point there when you said about never again.
00:06:56.820 People need to remember that, yes,
00:06:58.280 this is not something that just has fizzled out to history.
00:07:02.780 I think you're so right, Andrew.
00:07:05.580 Look, when we try to undertake Holocaust education,
00:07:09.980 for example, in the public school system here in Canada,
00:07:12.820 we struggle to find ways to make it relatable to kids today
00:07:18.380 who have no terms of reference,
00:07:20.460 who don't really have any clue as to what the Holocaust was,
00:07:26.720 how it came about, and how it could have been prevented.
00:07:30.620 And as we struggle as a society,
00:07:32.940 and we've had a pretty intense year,
00:07:35.040 in addition to COVID,
00:07:36.480 there was so much attention,
00:07:39.260 and rightly so,
00:07:40.520 to issues of racism and discrimination.
00:07:42.920 Some of it really built into the very fabric of our society.
00:07:48.000 We have no possibility of addressing those in a constructive way
00:07:52.300 if we don't have an appreciation for what things could have been
00:07:56.480 and what things were.
00:07:58.120 So when we look at the Uyghur in China, 1.00
00:08:00.760 or we look at what's happening in Burma,
00:08:02.760 or we look even to places like Eastern Europe and the Ukraine,
00:08:07.060 we have to connect the dots between what was and what could be.
00:08:13.740 And if we are dismissive of the past,
00:08:16.360 if we simply whitewash people like Oberlander,
00:08:19.840 then really we're condemning ourselves to repeating those terrible events
00:08:24.700 and experiences of the past.
00:08:26.540 One thing that I would point out here,
00:08:30.460 to go back to the Oberlander case,
00:08:32.200 is that the government has tried,
00:08:35.140 and I don't know if there are other tools
00:08:37.140 that the government could have employed
00:08:38.460 that would have expedited this.
00:08:39.680 A lot of the issues have been in the courts
00:08:41.860 and in some of the legal mechanisms there,
00:08:43.980 and this has spanned liberal and conservative governments
00:08:46.560 because of how long it's gone on.
00:08:48.920 You know, if this country is not ultimately successful
00:08:52.780 in deporting Helmut Oberlander,
00:08:55.280 it really does show, I think,
00:08:58.280 a profound lack of commitment in some way.
00:09:02.200 I don't know the right word,
00:09:03.480 but a lack of ability to see this through
00:09:05.480 and understand the severity of it.
00:09:06.960 I mean, if this had happened, for example,
00:09:08.900 with someone whose role were less ambiguous
00:09:12.320 or perceived as less ambiguous,
00:09:14.880 I can't imagine that they would have allowed this to go on for 26 years.
00:09:19.160 So it does strike me as very odd
00:09:21.600 that this has not been successful,
00:09:23.120 and this may well be.
00:09:24.480 And in fact, it probably will be the last such case ever in Canada
00:09:28.080 and one of the last in the world.
00:09:30.200 It's important to get it right.
00:09:32.280 So I think that's absolutely spot on, Andrew.
00:09:35.900 I think one of the questions that has been triggered
00:09:39.120 or prompted by this experience over 26 years,
00:09:42.200 and you're quite right,
00:09:43.400 successive Canadian governments have endeavoured.
00:09:46.700 I think there were four definitive decisions taken
00:09:50.200 to strip him of his Canadian citizenship
00:09:52.880 and deport him to Germany where he would stand trial.
00:09:55.920 It prompts the question,
00:10:00.200 how is our independent judiciary managing things
00:10:04.740 in a way that simply makes sense?
00:10:07.380 If the judiciary can be abused
00:10:10.240 in the way that Oberlander's legal team has done it for 26 years,
00:10:15.300 it begs the question,
00:10:16.920 are we doing something wrong
00:10:18.380 in terms of how we're organising the legal process?
00:10:23.180 Ensuring justice for the target of a particular prosecution
00:10:28.460 has to be balanced by ensuring justice
00:10:31.240 for the victims of the alleged crime.
00:10:35.920 And I think that in this case,
00:10:37.740 it is clear that the 15,000 or 20,000 survivors
00:10:44.040 living here in Canada now,
00:10:46.400 observing what's happening with Oberlander,
00:10:48.400 are certainly bitterly asking themselves,
00:10:51.740 where is the justice for me and the family that I lost?
00:10:56.560 Yeah, and one point I would raise here
00:10:59.200 is that it seems like for the Oberlander legal team,
00:11:02.560 the delay is the win.
00:11:04.280 I mean, the guy's 96, let's be real.
00:11:06.340 The delay is the win.
00:11:07.720 They don't need a court to declare them the victors.
00:11:10.140 They just need to drag it out until such a point
00:11:12.500 that he's reached his natural end.
00:11:14.840 I think that's exactly right.
00:11:20.320 They're not looking for vindication.
00:11:23.440 They're looking just to allow him to remain in place
00:11:26.900 and be comfortable for the rest of his days
00:11:29.700 and thereby to dodge having to be accountable
00:11:34.700 for what he's done.
00:11:36.280 We have to remember the Canadian peace
00:11:39.180 is only a portion of this process.
00:11:41.660 It's not as if he would be deported
00:11:44.060 simply because he misled immigration officials
00:11:48.220 when he applied for Canadian citizenship.
00:11:51.180 There's a court waiting to try him for war crimes.
00:11:55.260 And for him not to be deported from Canada
00:11:59.300 would mean that he never has to account
00:12:01.880 for his decisions, for his actions,
00:12:05.200 and his participation in the Nazi killing mission.
00:12:10.020 That's actually a tremendously valuable point.
00:12:13.320 In a lot of cases, we view this as a deportation case,
00:12:15.860 which is how it is legally,
00:12:17.040 but it has a lot of the hallmarks
00:12:18.940 of an extradition case as well,
00:12:20.580 which I think that change in words
00:12:22.380 has a very significant change in the perception of it.
00:12:25.940 Shimon Koffler-Fogel,
00:12:27.000 President and CEO of the Center for Israel and Jewish Affairs,
00:12:29.980 thank you for your commitment
00:12:31.140 to justice and accountability on this, Shimon.
00:12:33.940 Andrew, it's always great to be with you.
00:12:35.580 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:12:37.680 Support the program by donating to True North
00:12:40.000 at www.tnc.news.