Juno News - B.C. still enforcing vaccine mandate for healthcare workers

00:00:00.000 you're tuned in to the andrew lawton show

00:00:05.920 i want to talk about british columbia here because this every time i talk about

00:00:12.640 the post-pandemic era or i talk about restrictions and mandates in the past tense i always get a few

00:00:19.240 emails very kind thoughtful emails from people in british columbia saying well you know hate to

00:00:24.980 break it to you but it hasn't really ended here and this is true british columbia for a lot of the

00:00:30.080 pandemic was one of the best provinces for not locking down for keeping businesses open

00:00:35.240 but not perfect they still had the vaccine passport and it has also been the most stubborn when it's

00:00:41.280 come to the vaccine mandates especially as they pertain to health care workers so as we see now

00:00:48.180 bc is still holding to its vaccine mandate for health care workers but they've said that no

00:00:54.100 longer do you need to provide the proof to of your vaccination status to your regulatory colleges

00:01:00.760 in fact there's actually been a bit of a disconnect in how some people were reading this report

00:01:05.580 originally and how it is now and ultimately i want to get to the bottom of this and talk about

00:01:11.120 some of the legal challenges that are afoot against the british columbia government over this

00:01:16.220 joining me on the line now is charlene le beau who is a lawyer with the justice center for

00:01:21.560 constitutional freedoms and i should also just say by way of disclosure i actually sit on the board

00:01:26.940 of the jccf though that had no bearing in setting up this interview and i always put that disclosure

00:01:33.800 just so everyone is aware of where i'm coming from in my support for the organization uh but but i'll

00:01:39.740 ask you charlene what is the situation in bc now first and foremost because i think there was a bit

00:01:44.300 of confusion this week about whether the government was dropping the mandate or just amending how it's

00:01:49.800 unfolding right thanks for having me andrew yes the mandate is still in place for the bc health

00:01:56.900 care workers so any health care worker who is employed by a bc health authority is still required

00:02:04.760 to show proof of having taken two doses of an approved covet 19 vaccine in order to be able to work

00:02:11.560 so this new order that dr bonnie henry issued on july the 14th just this past friday essentially cancels

00:02:20.200 an order that she made on june 10th 2022 about a year ago that required regulated health care workers 1.00

00:02:26.920 to provide proof of vaccination to their colleges um so really the that order impacted the um those in private

00:02:37.560 practice not those that were employed by a bc health authority um so that's very significant so canceling

00:02:45.660 that order means that those regulated health care workers um in private practice do not have to show

00:02:56.440 um or do not have to provide provide proof of vaccination to their colleges so it doesn't impact our lawsuit so i'm

00:03:04.040 one of the lawyers on um a lawsuit in which we're representing 11 uh bc health care workers who were

00:03:11.720 fired for not having taken the vaccine um so that that lawsuit is continuing and we have trial dates set for

00:03:19.400 november of this year now just to how do they define vaccinated are they is it a two-dose definition or a

00:03:26.920 booster definition it's a two-dose definition there was some confusion in april of 2023 so april 6 um dr

00:03:36.120 bonnie henry issued two new orders and we call them the hospital and community care order and the

00:03:41.400 residential care order and there was some confusion because people thought that she was changing it to

00:03:48.760 to require or changing the definition of fully vaccinated to um mean three doses but in fact that

00:03:56.760 that's not not accurate um those april 6 2023 orders they um still only require two doses um of the

00:04:07.880 vaccine the the order talks a lot about the booster and encourages people to get the booster and talks

00:04:15.080 about how how you know how good the booster is um but it doesn't require it and uh those orders also um

00:04:26.280 essentially captured two new groups of of workers not even healthcare workers but those workers that

00:04:32.040 enter um health facilities such as uh construction workers and occasional workers who do not have

00:04:39.640 contact with patients so it before the april 6 orders were granted uh those two groups of workers did not

00:04:48.280 if they did not show proof of vaccination they had to physically distance and wear masks so that was an

00:04:54.120 exemption in those orders it wasn't called an exemption but it it was that they were allowed to enter

00:05:00.840 facilities without showing proof of vaccination and now that's those that's taken out of the orders so

00:05:08.120 now those two groups of workers are included the just to talk about the doses for a moment here right

00:05:14.600 this is so absurd because even if you take the government's own messaging around vaccine efficacy at face

00:05:20.760 value which i i think is fraught with challenges but a health care worker who got their first dose in

00:05:26.680 december of 2020 and maybe their second dose in say february of 2021 has gone two and a half years without

00:05:36.440 ever receiving any dose whatsoever of vaccine which means the effectiveness of that vaccine again to use

00:05:44.520 the government's own narrative is zero neck is literally nothing so the idea that that is a

00:05:51.000 requirement to work in health care is absurd when if you got vaccinated in january of 2021 or 20 22 even

00:06:01.640 you are less protected than an unvaccinated person who got covet a month ago is yes and that is one of our 0.91

00:06:08.680 our arguments for sure so so what has the government done if anything in its submissions or uh in public

00:06:16.600 comments to push back against this to basically defend the science of its mandate well they they're

00:06:23.320 still repeating the the same mantra which is that um it the the vaccine is is is safe and effective and

00:06:33.480 you know essentially they're silent on i mean i guess they say they say two things they do acknowledge

00:06:40.680 that um the vaccine efficacy wears off over time or wanes quickly really but at the same time they say

00:06:49.240 that um it reduces symptoms and that having two doses is certainly better than being unvaccinated

00:06:59.000 but yes you should get a booster as well so those are the types of things that they say i i saw i can't

00:07:05.560 remember the exact number but i know that the bc nurses union just a couple of months ago was talking

00:07:10.680 about the nursing shortages in bc and and the problem was the ratio of healthcare workers to patients was

00:07:17.800 uh concerning and and ultimately leading to a lack of of adequate patient care so here we have a

00:07:24.120 government that is uh preventing people from working in its healthcare system well the people in that

00:07:30.120 system who are vaccinated who've gone through the uh protocols are saying hey we need more staff

00:07:36.520 oh yes absolutely and i mean you'll hear adrian dix say you know talk about how they're bringing in

00:07:43.640 workers from overseas and they have a plan to increase the healthcare workers by you know certain numbers but

00:07:52.520 yeah i mean the fact is that there is a serious healthcare shortage and they talk about how they're

00:08:00.040 going to fix it but it's still you know a real problem what is the the basis of the argument here

00:08:06.840 because i know there's always been a bit of a question about uh the best avenue to challenge some

00:08:12.520 of these mandates whether it's on constitutional grounds or through other means so are what's the

00:08:17.800 if you can as much as you can divulge anyway what's the strategy that you're taking with your challenges

00:08:22.760 yes well part of the the challenge is based on constitutional grounds that it's a violation of

00:08:28.360 constitutional rights um so yeah so that's one basis but you know we're also looking at and

00:08:33.560 challenging the science so the efficacy of the vaccine and um also uh adverse reactions and things

00:08:44.200 like that so we're looking at the science and we're definitely incorporating that into our argument

00:08:48.120 one of the big things that and this has come up when we've talked about vaccine mandates and other

00:08:54.680 sectors as well whether it's the federal public service vaccine or uh the error airline employee

00:09:00.120 vaccine and whatever the case is that you know there are a few different categories of people here there

00:09:04.920 are those who say you know what i'm not going along with this and therefore they lose their job or they

00:09:09.800 get laid off or fired they're victims of this i i would also say the people that that get vaccinated

00:09:16.200 against their will to keep their job are victims of of this as well and and i don't know how you

00:09:22.600 quantify that number but there's a large group here of people that were literally coerced into this and

00:09:27.560 are still being coerced into this because uh this is the only way they get to do what for many of them

00:09:32.920 has been a lifelong a lifelong calling working in healthcare yes so yes it very it does look like

00:09:41.640 coercion absolutely but the government's answer to that is it's a choice it's still a choice you're

00:09:48.200 not it's actually not a mandate is what they're saying it's a choice so i mean it it really looks like

00:09:54.600 a coercion um but technically it's still a choice and and and the thing is is that um the right to work

00:10:07.320 is not a protected under the constitution how were how have the i mean i'm i'm assuming i know the answer

00:10:15.800 to this but i'm curious to hear your uh the way you describe it here how has the how have the hospitals

00:10:22.040 how has the healthcare system been on exemptions because i know that technically you know people

00:10:27.080 can uh claim a religious exemption or a medical exemption to these things under human rights laws

00:10:31.880 but i i know that these have been uh next to impossible for for people to get reliably in other

00:10:37.240 provinces when they've had these mandates in place well so the orders um actually do not allow for any

00:10:44.600 exemption other than a medical exemption so so naughty they don't even allow the religious uh 0.93

00:10:49.640 conscientious exemption wow no no that's right and the medical exemption really is just the the criteria

00:10:57.160 is it's just such a narrow um exemption that essentially nobody qualifies you know so um

00:11:06.280 the exemptions require that you either have to have taken one dose i mean there's there's a whole list

00:11:12.600 but essentially you have to have taken a dose and been um you know had a severe allergic reaction almost

00:11:20.600 died you know gotten really ill from the first dose and and the exemptions really are not true exemptions

00:11:28.280 they're really just deferrals so very few people have qualified just to drill into that point so someone

00:11:35.560 could have a very good relationship with their family doctor and the family doctor could be

00:11:40.360 uh very pro vaccine and say you know in your case i think you might have an issue with this vaccine

00:11:46.600 because of x and that person might actually have to go through that issue before that medical advice

00:11:53.720 qualifies them for an exemption well yes and first they have to go to an allergist to get that opinion

00:11:59.560 and the thing is also is many medical professionals were very reluctant to pro to get involved in you know to

00:12:07.800 provide those kinds of letters requesting exemptions so it's very difficult yeah very difficult for

00:12:14.360 people to um to obtain that exemption i i don't have much time for the bc human rights tribunal but i

00:12:22.600 know that it is a body that does have a fair bit of power on these things so how has it not uh become

00:12:29.160 involved in this when you have uh exemptions that as i understand should be protected under human rights

00:12:34.520 law at least that aren't being respected by the mandate yeah i don't know of any um cases at present

00:12:43.160 that are being handled yeah interesting and again i i mean the the challenge with that body is that

00:12:49.880 i i feel it more often works against individual choice than for it but uh from what you had just

00:12:54.920 said which i i didn't know that the bc mandates uh for health care workers don't even allow for

00:13:00.440 the human rights exemptions that other provinces at least claim to i i found that quite shocking so

00:13:06.440 just looking forward here i mean we've seen in some of the covet cases that have come up in different

00:13:11.640 provinces a fair bit of deference from courts to governments and i'm wondering if you're if you're

00:13:18.840 expecting in bc to have a similar challenge of foot or if maybe the courts in british colombia have been

00:13:24.040 somewhat better on this in your view i don't think so no the courts have been pretty consistent across

00:13:30.120 canada in deferring to the government and the government science so just a little bit more about

00:13:37.320 our case um many of our petitioners were administrative workers or who worked remotely anyway not even due to

00:13:46.520 the pandemic and so uh one of our arguments is that the the orders are overbroad because they are

00:13:55.640 impacting you know so these these workers were fired for not taking the vaccine and yet they worked in

00:14:01.880 administrative positions and or so so they weren't at a risk of infecting a patient which is basically

00:14:08.120 the argument the government used to justify these things that's right explain to me if you can and i i mean

00:14:15.000 i know it's difficult to explain the the inexplicable but uh how the government has been to back up here

00:14:23.080 what it seems like is that the government is trying to filter out a type of person that it doesn't want

00:14:28.680 working for it more than it's trying to prevent against any risk and i'm wondering if i i'm being

00:14:34.120 perhaps too cynical there or that would align with with your perspective on this having now studied this

00:14:40.120 file so extensively yeah i would agree with that yeah they want a certain type of worker

00:14:44.680 yeah so in this particular case you have a mandate that really serves to just say you know you're

00:14:51.560 you're either on this side of the debate or you're on this side of the debate exactly yeah

00:14:57.640 well i appreciate very much you chatting about this i know we'll cover this uh up in november when

00:15:03.080 the trial comes uh joining me now is lawyer for the jccf charlene laboe charlene thank you so much for

00:15:09.640 coming on today and thank you for having me thanks for listening to the andrew lawton show

00:15:14.440 support the program by donating to true north at www.tnc.news

Juno News - July 24, 2023

B.C. still enforcing vaccine mandate for healthcare workers

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