Juno News - Breaching Democracy

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.700 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.720 Coming up, the importance of condemning political violence and political hypocrisy.

00:00:17.540 Also, recalling politicians that screw up.

00:00:22.340 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:25.960 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:31.820 This is The Andrew Lawton Show on True North.

00:00:34.660 Thank you so much for tuning in.

00:00:36.760 And what we try to ensure is a beacon of liberty.

00:00:40.760 And that includes the right to speak freely.

00:00:43.500 That includes the right to protest.

00:00:45.240 That includes the right to own firearms.

00:00:47.140 The right to live your life.

00:00:48.500 The right to spend your money the way you want to.

00:00:50.780 These are all things we stand up for.

00:00:52.720 Nowhere in the list of liberties that free citizens enjoy is the destruction of property.

00:01:00.720 The destruction of other people's rights to life or liberty.

00:01:04.840 And this is what we have to push back against in governments all the time.

00:01:09.160 When governments decide they do not want to recognize other people's rights to freedom.

00:01:14.060 Rights to enjoy the fruits of their own labor. 0.54

00:01:16.280 Rights to assembly.

00:01:17.120 It's what we've been condemning throughout the entirety of the COVID-19 lockdowns.

00:01:22.480 And the snitch culture that people in Canada and in Western societies all around the world have embraced.

00:01:28.820 But the reason I talk about this now is because these rights do not cover what happened this week at the United States Capitol.

00:01:38.140 The right to protest is not the right to destroy.

00:01:42.160 It's not the right to riot.

00:01:43.960 It's not the right to storm a house of government or any other building for that matter.

00:01:49.900 And this is the very thing that I said months ago when Black Lives Matter and Antifa rioters were doing the same thing to businesses that were owned by everyday people.

00:01:59.980 When businesses had to board up and actually spray paint on their sides that they were minority owned in hopes that they might be spared from the rioters.

00:02:09.380 And when the left and the media were saying that oh well these were just mostly peaceful.

00:02:14.580 Remember this?

00:02:15.540 I want to be clear in how I characterize this.

00:02:18.400 This is mostly a protest.

00:02:20.940 It is not generally speaking unruly.

00:02:25.200 But fires have been started.

00:02:26.340 I was the one among many others and many of you tuning in saying that that was a load of nonsense.

00:02:32.400 I would be a tremendous hypocrite to not direct that same ire to what happened on the Capitol.

00:02:38.920 Now before I get into this I know that there are a lot of people that are of two minds on this.

00:02:44.180 On one hand I get people on the right that I see on Twitter that are cheering this on and saying well how else are you going to respond to a rigged system and a fraudulent election and all of that.

00:02:52.960 And then I get other people that are saying well no this isn't actually the right this is all undercover Antifa operatives meant to look the right look bad.

00:03:00.480 These two are irreconcilable.

00:03:02.240 Either you're cheering them on or you think what they're doing is terrible and meant to give people on the right a bad name.

00:03:07.560 I don't think either is true.

00:03:10.280 I think what happened is wrong.

00:03:11.920 I think you may have some undercover Antifa agitators or belligerents in there.

00:03:15.980 But I think that there's a lot of anger from people and I understand that anger and I'm going to talk about on this show and a lot of that allowed people to be consumed by it and to jump in and storm in when they saw an opportunity and when they looked around and saw that everyone else was doing it.

00:03:31.720 Four people are dead because of what happened at the U.S. Capitol.

00:03:36.460 Four people are dead.

00:03:37.560 One of them was shot in the neck.

00:03:39.480 I'm not going to show the video footage but if you are someone who wants to see it for yourself you can find it very easily online.

00:03:45.860 It's chilling.

00:03:46.960 A woman shot in the neck or it might have been the chest but either way someone who died as part of this group.

00:03:54.000 Now I do not think that what happened there should have happened.

00:03:57.800 I don't think that anyone should have been in the building.

00:03:59.880 I don't think police should have fired.

00:04:01.380 I don't think that any of this episode makes anyone look good or deals with any of the underlying issues that a lot of the protesters were claiming to understand and claiming to speak for.

00:04:13.720 Now I want to make a very significant point here that has been lost in the media.

00:04:18.160 There is a difference between the protesters outside and the rioters inside.

00:04:23.380 And when I'm talking about people who are in the wrong here I'm talking about the ones who stormed the gates, the ones who broke the window, the ones who crossed over the threshold, the ones who walked into the doors of this house of government with the intent to disrupt, with the intent to destroy, with the intent to do who knows what else.

00:04:41.140 I'm not talking about the people who were exercising their First Amendment's right to stand outside and protest.

00:04:47.840 The people who by and large occupied the majority, the majority of the protesters present in Washington, D.C.

00:04:55.460 The people who we saw on news footage before sundown were leaving, were walking the other way.

00:05:01.000 That is fine.

00:05:02.060 That is protest.

00:05:02.980 Same as people who are Black Lives Matter protesters who took a knee, who yelled about whatever they wanted to yell about, who held their signs. 0.60

00:05:10.600 That's First Amendment.

00:05:12.400 Your right to free speech ends when your actions all of a sudden aim to destroy or harm or take away someone else's right.

00:05:21.740 Whether it's blocking traffic, whether it is vandalizing, looting, burning, whatever the case may be.

00:05:29.800 So yes, people who wanted to stand outside on Capitol Hill and protest, have at it.

00:05:35.340 That is what America is about.

00:05:37.380 That is what freedom is all about.

00:05:38.740 The people who went inside, you are terrorists.

00:05:42.320 You are terrorists.

00:05:43.400 If you destroy, if you raid a government building for political reasons, that is an act of terrorism.

00:05:52.240 It is.

00:05:52.920 There is no other way to describe it.

00:05:56.380 And you know what?

00:05:57.260 I have a lot of friends who are members of Parliament who were sitting in the House of Commons in 2014

00:06:02.700 when a gunman with his own political ideology, an Islamic terrorist, stormed Parliament Hill.

00:06:08.220 And I know how they feel.

00:06:09.360 Some of them actually took therapy because they needed to deal with the trauma of what happened,

00:06:15.120 not knowing what they were in the midst of, not knowing if they were being targeted,

00:06:19.140 not knowing if they would make it out alive.

00:06:22.440 Now imagine the feeling of the people inside, Democrats, Republicans, staffers, janitors, cafeteria workers,

00:06:28.980 people who have no skin in the game in many cases,

00:06:32.060 and on other sides, people that may even agree with your point.

00:06:35.340 When they find out that hundreds of people, perhaps thousands,

00:06:40.260 we have no idea how many people actually went in, are storming.

00:06:43.760 Some of them armed, illegally I might add.

00:06:47.160 Is this helping anyone?

00:06:49.980 Is this helping your cause?

00:06:52.180 Even if you take aside the illegality and the immorality,

00:06:56.740 does it help your case?

00:06:58.840 Just look at this through practical reasons alone.

00:07:03.540 The damage that what happened yesterday did to the political right is monumental.

00:07:10.060 As Will Chamberlain pointed out on Twitter,

00:07:12.520 worse than what happened at Charlottesville.

00:07:16.440 So people on the right need to condemn this,

00:07:19.400 just as we expect and demand that people on the left condemn violence from their own

00:07:25.580 and rioting from their own.

00:07:28.840 So I have no time for the hypocrites on either side of this.

00:07:32.860 I have no time for the lefties who were apologists for Black Lives Matter riots

00:07:36.760 and the ones calling it mostly peaceful,

00:07:39.140 who on this think it's an act of war,

00:07:41.220 just as I have no time for the law and order conservatives

00:07:43.700 who wanted to throw the book at the BLM rioters,

00:07:47.180 while on this saying,

00:07:48.260 well, you know, can you understand their anger?

00:07:50.680 And look, if that is what you're doing,

00:07:52.800 if you're trying to parse and look at what is essentially the same action,

00:07:56.360 but trying to make it justifiable in one context and not in the other,

00:08:00.380 you are looking at this in a hypocritical way.

00:08:02.520 And I'm sorry, but you've got to reevaluate that position.

00:08:05.620 The anger is real.

00:08:06.700 The frustration is real.

00:08:08.080 The division is real.

00:08:09.380 And all of that needs to be addressed.

00:08:11.760 All of that needs to be addressed.

00:08:13.060 But you do not solve that by storming the Capitol,

00:08:17.740 by storming anyone else's building.

00:08:20.380 Even if it is, as many people have termed it, the people's building,

00:08:23.760 that does not give you a hall pass in a literal or figurative sense

00:08:28.080 when you have to break a window to get in.

00:08:31.460 And here's the thing.

00:08:32.540 I am someone who, like so many Canadians,

00:08:34.620 especially Canadians who lean politically right,

00:08:36.960 has grown up with my face pressed up against the window

00:08:39.800 of the United States of America,

00:08:41.300 the land of liberty, the beacon of freedom.

00:08:44.280 This is what I have raised.

00:08:45.300 And I've been raised, by the way, like so many of you,

00:08:48.740 looking at that country and seeing something to aspire to.

00:08:52.720 And if you are a patriot,

00:08:54.020 if you are someone who loves your country,

00:08:55.640 whether it's Canada or the United States,

00:08:57.480 it means that you love your country

00:08:59.340 and also trust that your country can overcome its division

00:09:03.160 and trust that your country has a system that can overcome strife.

00:09:08.280 So even if you look at the American election of 2020,

00:09:11.300 and think that the election was rigged

00:09:12.720 and think that the votes shouldn't have been certified,

00:09:15.880 you have to, if you, again, believe in your country,

00:09:20.580 you have to respect that there is a judicial process,

00:09:23.800 a legislative process, and yes, an executive process.

00:09:27.300 Now, if you think that all of those processes failed,

00:09:29.780 and believe me when I say I understand that,

00:09:31.800 I've been following this since election day in the United States,

00:09:34.600 you also have to accept that the armed rebellion,

00:09:39.420 if that's what you want to call it,

00:09:40.640 the attempted insurrection,

00:09:42.180 or at the very least, the protest that got out of hand,

00:09:44.520 is not changing any of that.

00:09:47.800 What's happened?

00:09:49.280 Hours later, Congress resumes,

00:09:52.680 the Electoral College votes are certified,

00:09:55.700 the same outcome happened,

00:09:57.480 but with four people unnecessarily dead.

00:10:00.220 Was there a net gain from this?

00:10:05.440 Is anyone better off?

00:10:07.320 Was a point made?

00:10:09.400 No.

00:10:10.660 Absolutely not.

00:10:13.040 And if anything, it's a lot harder.

00:10:15.580 Look at what happened with Kelly Loeffler,

00:10:17.280 the Georgia senator,

00:10:18.260 who actually withdrew her objection

00:10:21.480 to the Electoral College results

00:10:23.280 because of what happened.

00:10:24.720 So if you believe that this was at all justifiable,

00:10:27.340 it actually set your movement back.

00:10:30.660 It set your movement back.

00:10:33.480 Now, a lot of people are going to wonder,

00:10:35.160 oh, well, why is he spending so much time

00:10:36.580 criticizing the right?

00:10:37.580 I'm not.

00:10:38.400 I'm criticizing a small subset of the right

00:10:40.540 that's so concerned about owning the libs 1.00

00:10:42.520 that they don't actually realize

00:10:43.840 there is an importance in intellectual consistency

00:10:46.760 and honesty.

00:10:49.240 And if you do believe that this was justifiable

00:10:51.640 because of your belief about the American election,

00:10:54.780 well, what happens when another group

00:10:56.040 believes that its storming of the Capitol building

00:10:58.860 is justifiable because of a belief they hold?

00:11:01.600 What if BLM, who genuinely believes 0.91

00:11:03.660 that the system is systemically racist

00:11:05.440 and that the system is responsible

00:11:06.940 for slaughtering blacks, 0.90

00:11:08.480 decides that it's going to take up

00:11:09.980 an armed rebellion

00:11:11.020 and storm the gates of the Capitol?

00:11:13.940 What happens if another group

00:11:15.460 feeling it is the victim of a gross injustice

00:11:18.060 decides it's going to storm the Capitol

00:11:19.980 because, well, the system has failed,

00:11:21.780 this is our only response?

00:11:23.240 That is how decisions are made

00:11:27.140 in banana republics.

00:11:29.580 And for all the people saying,

00:11:30.760 well, they're not rioters,

00:11:31.800 they're not terrorists,

00:11:32.580 they're revolutionaries,

00:11:33.660 and people pointing to the fact

00:11:35.000 that it was a rebellion

00:11:36.040 that gave the United States

00:11:38.220 the existence of the United States,

00:11:41.600 first off, there are monumental differences

00:11:43.660 between then and now

00:11:44.620 that we don't have time to get into,

00:11:46.040 but secondly, it's not working.

00:11:49.540 It's not working.

00:11:50.500 It's not accomplishing anything.

00:11:53.100 It is not achieving the desired result.

00:11:55.920 It is making everyone involved look bad.

00:11:59.320 And yes, people that genuinely stand up

00:12:01.700 for freedom and stand up for the rule of law

00:12:03.560 and stand up for free speech

00:12:04.660 have, I believe, a moral obligation to condemn it,

00:12:07.880 just as we all expected the left to do the same.

00:12:12.380 And the left didn't,

00:12:14.380 which is why we need to be able to say

00:12:16.200 that we are better than them

00:12:17.940 when it comes to this.

00:12:19.300 Though we condemn the people

00:12:20.580 that do wrong on our side in our name,

00:12:23.340 the left doesn't.

00:12:25.500 That's the whole point of this.

00:12:26.940 And you lose the moral high ground

00:12:28.840 to make those determinations

00:12:30.120 and make those distinctions

00:12:31.200 when you start turning a blind eye

00:12:32.940 to people on your side.

00:12:34.040 Now, if we find out

00:12:35.320 that this is all one big Antifa plot,

00:12:37.300 great.

00:12:38.380 But condemn the evidence,

00:12:40.040 and not great, by the way.

00:12:41.080 It would be terrible

00:12:41.760 because the fact that anyone did this,

00:12:44.240 the fact that anyone did this,

00:12:45.940 is wrong.

00:12:49.120 So when I look at

00:12:50.840 what has happened

00:12:52.820 in the last, what,

00:12:54.260 16, 24 hours,

00:12:56.020 however long ago

00:12:57.080 it was that this first started,

00:12:59.620 the protest was fine.

00:13:03.460 I may not agree,

00:13:04.720 I may disagree,

00:13:05.660 I may agree,

00:13:06.240 it doesn't matter.

00:13:06.960 The protest itself was fine.

00:13:09.180 The second that protest

00:13:10.640 takes a step

00:13:11.720 over that line,

00:13:14.680 and that's a figurative

00:13:15.560 and a literal line,

00:13:16.540 and people are starting

00:13:17.220 to scale walls,

00:13:18.620 it is no longer

00:13:19.820 about protest.

00:13:21.960 It is about the very thing

00:13:23.340 that people on the right

00:13:24.220 have been condemning

00:13:25.040 for months and for years.

00:13:27.240 Black Lives Matter riots,

00:13:29.380 rail blockades

00:13:30.400 in a Canadian context,

00:13:32.300 and many other chapters

00:13:33.780 that have a very similar form

00:13:35.500 over the last several years.

00:13:37.340 Politically speaking,

00:13:41.140 I get why people

00:13:41.940 don't want Joe Biden

00:13:42.900 to be president,

00:13:43.620 and I get why people

00:13:44.380 think Joe Biden

00:13:45.040 didn't actually win

00:13:45.800 the election.

00:13:47.300 But if you believe

00:13:48.560 in the country

00:13:49.400 that you are trying

00:13:50.360 to uphold,

00:13:51.340 and this is, by the way,

00:13:52.320 not just about Americans.

00:13:53.960 A lot of people,

00:13:55.160 a lot of freedom-loving people

00:13:56.420 around the world

00:13:57.060 are invested

00:13:57.740 in what happens

00:13:58.800 in the United States.

00:13:59.780 If you believe

00:14:01.060 in this country

00:14:02.680 and these ideals

00:14:03.800 that you think

00:14:04.480 are under attack

00:14:05.240 from Joe Biden,

00:14:06.080 you have to believe

00:14:07.840 that your country

00:14:08.760 is bigger than Joe Biden.

00:14:11.040 You have to believe

00:14:11.820 that the United States

00:14:12.620 is big enough

00:14:13.800 and strong enough

00:14:14.940 to combat these things

00:14:18.440 without an attempted insurrection.

00:14:23.040 Now, I don't know

00:14:24.720 what the mentality was

00:14:27.100 behind most of the people

00:14:28.460 that were involved yesterday.

00:14:29.720 I do genuinely believe

00:14:31.480 that we're talking

00:14:32.540 about a slim minority overall

00:14:35.360 that thought

00:14:36.920 there was a violent justification

00:14:39.180 for what they wanted to do.

00:14:41.040 It's a slim minority,

00:14:42.060 but enough.

00:14:42.680 Enough of them.

00:14:44.120 So I think that,

00:14:45.460 again, you had some instigators.

00:14:46.860 You had a lot of people

00:14:47.640 that were just going along

00:14:48.740 for the ride.

00:14:49.860 You had a lot of people

00:14:50.640 that were consumed

00:14:51.260 by mob mentality,

00:14:52.540 which is why

00:14:53.360 when they got in,

00:14:54.820 we didn't actually see

00:14:56.120 a huge amount of destruction.

00:14:57.720 And I'm not for a second

00:14:58.600 justifying it.

00:14:59.700 I'm pointing out

00:15:00.380 an oddity of it.

00:15:01.540 That on some people,

00:15:02.360 you had, in some cases,

00:15:03.840 you had people

00:15:04.240 that were flipping over stuff.

00:15:05.500 But in other cases,

00:15:06.220 the bulk of the damage

00:15:07.660 was I'm taking a selfie

00:15:08.920 in Nancy Pelosi's office

00:15:10.360 or I'm taking an envelope

00:15:11.820 from Nancy Pelosi's desk.

00:15:14.220 I mean, I mentioned

00:15:15.000 in passing to a friend yesterday

00:15:16.740 and I'm glad

00:15:17.180 this didn't happen.

00:15:18.220 But if people really

00:15:18.960 wanted to do damage,

00:15:19.820 a lot of these computers

00:15:20.820 were left completely abandoned,

00:15:22.800 still logged in

00:15:23.500 when everyone started evacuating.

00:15:24.980 Why was no one

00:15:25.600 downloading anything?

00:15:26.820 Why was no one

00:15:27.520 looking into situations

00:15:29.120 in that way?

00:15:29.840 So this was not

00:15:32.280 a planned

00:15:33.080 and organized rebellion.

00:15:35.040 So anyone who says

00:15:35.820 it's like a revolution

00:15:36.720 in the making,

00:15:37.520 I mean, it lacks

00:15:38.160 the cohesion

00:15:39.380 and organization

00:15:40.080 that revolutions

00:15:41.100 typically have,

00:15:41.960 certainly successful ones.

00:15:45.020 So this is going

00:15:46.220 to be a situation

00:15:47.200 that gets worse

00:15:47.840 before it gets better.

00:15:49.120 Donald Trump

00:15:49.820 is going to not

00:15:51.100 be the president

00:15:52.000 as of January 20th.

00:15:54.240 If you think

00:15:55.080 he was the lawfully

00:15:55.880 elected president,

00:15:56.840 okay.

00:15:57.520 But legally,

00:15:58.400 in the literal sense,

00:15:59.300 he will not be

00:16:00.080 the one sitting

00:16:00.740 in the White House.

00:16:01.580 That will be Joe Biden.

00:16:03.600 How people decide

00:16:04.920 they're going to get over

00:16:06.040 what's happened

00:16:07.240 in America

00:16:07.880 in the last four years,

00:16:08.880 I have no idea.

00:16:10.540 And this is not just

00:16:11.700 an attack unilaterally

00:16:13.100 on people on the right

00:16:14.120 because people on the left

00:16:15.120 have been not recognizing

00:16:16.540 the result

00:16:17.100 of the 2016 election

00:16:18.440 since 2016.

00:16:20.820 And they have been

00:16:21.480 declaring themselves

00:16:22.320 the resistance

00:16:22.980 and saying that Trump

00:16:23.820 was not their president

00:16:24.880 and boycotting

00:16:25.980 the inauguration.

00:16:26.940 So the division

00:16:27.600 and polarization

00:16:28.320 that we can mount,

00:16:30.300 that we can see mounting

00:16:31.360 is not exclusively

00:16:33.040 the purview

00:16:33.840 of the political right.

00:16:36.480 And anyone trying

00:16:37.460 to say that Trump

00:16:38.200 created this

00:16:39.220 is missing the mark

00:16:40.560 entirely.

00:16:41.440 Trump is a product

00:16:42.360 of this,

00:16:42.980 perhaps,

00:16:43.880 because Trump

00:16:44.520 was elected

00:16:45.140 because of anger

00:16:46.460 that existed

00:16:47.520 from Americans

00:16:48.280 who felt like

00:16:48.920 they had been ignored

00:16:49.640 by everyone else

00:16:50.780 who had been in office,

00:16:52.200 Republican and Democrat,

00:16:53.380 for generations.

00:16:54.360 So Donald Trump

00:16:57.300 did not cause this.

00:16:58.920 I would argue

00:16:59.700 his video yesterday

00:17:00.720 didn't make things better.

00:17:02.100 He told people

00:17:02.640 to go home

00:17:03.300 but also was

00:17:04.700 not condemning it.

00:17:07.800 And the fact,

00:17:08.760 though,

00:17:08.920 that we had people

00:17:09.720 in the Trump administration

00:17:10.600 who were making

00:17:11.400 these moral stands

00:17:12.460 by resigning,

00:17:13.720 it, you know,

00:17:14.380 what tends to be

00:17:14.940 a bit more hollow

00:17:15.680 a sign

00:17:16.640 when you resign

00:17:17.700 from a job

00:17:18.280 that you're going

00:17:18.640 to be out of

00:17:19.060 in two weeks anyway.

00:17:19.940 So a lot of those

00:17:21.380 I kind of question

00:17:22.340 what the motivations

00:17:23.180 truly were.

00:17:24.220 But the whole point

00:17:24.940 is that the country

00:17:25.820 and all people

00:17:27.000 on left and right

00:17:27.740 need to heal

00:17:28.800 moving forward.

00:17:29.660 If that sounds like

00:17:30.500 hippy-dippy lefty language,

00:17:32.100 I'm sorry.

00:17:33.340 But what's happening now,

00:17:35.040 what's happening this week

00:17:35.960 is not sustainable.

00:17:38.440 And we are seeing

00:17:39.660 the death of disagreement,

00:17:41.300 the death of division,

00:17:42.340 the death of discourse,

00:17:43.460 and the death

00:17:44.300 of being able

00:17:45.300 to look across the aisle

00:17:46.920 in a way that always

00:17:48.380 used to be

00:17:48.820 the hallmark

00:17:49.380 of democratic societies

00:17:50.660 but now

00:17:51.640 is vilified.

00:17:54.600 No one wants

00:17:55.100 to sit down

00:17:55.660 and break bread

00:17:56.220 with their neighbor.

00:17:56.860 No one wants

00:17:57.420 to discuss

00:17:58.520 their differences

00:17:59.080 with someone.

00:17:59.880 We want to see

00:18:00.620 someone as our

00:18:01.540 20% enemy

00:18:02.540 instead of our

00:18:03.720 80% friend.

00:18:04.840 Whereas I would rather

00:18:05.560 see someone as my

00:18:06.300 10% friend

00:18:07.160 instead of my

00:18:08.300 90% enemy.

00:18:10.240 I don't have

00:18:11.100 the answer to this.

00:18:12.660 But I know

00:18:13.260 that violence

00:18:13.960 isn't it.

00:18:15.820 And yes,

00:18:16.500 you may see

00:18:17.040 violence against a building

00:18:18.220 as not being violence

00:18:19.200 but it is.

00:18:20.240 When you're storming

00:18:21.080 the gates,

00:18:21.540 when you're forcing

00:18:22.080 people to hide

00:18:22.740 under desks,

00:18:23.480 it is violence.

00:18:25.200 And if you think

00:18:25.760 that what happened

00:18:26.280 yesterday in Washington

00:18:27.140 was justifiable,

00:18:28.820 check yourself,

00:18:29.660 please.

00:18:30.440 Back in a moment

00:18:31.220 with more of

00:18:31.820 The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:18:32.740 Stay tuned.

00:18:34.460 You're tuned in

00:18:35.620 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:18:39.660 Welcome back

00:18:40.520 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:18:41.900 I want to bring

00:18:42.540 attention back

00:18:43.300 to things back home

00:18:44.580 here for the next

00:18:45.620 few moments anyway.

00:18:47.000 Certainly political

00:18:47.740 anger and political

00:18:48.880 frustration very real

00:18:50.220 even in a domestic

00:18:51.960 context.

00:18:53.080 We talked a lot

00:18:53.880 the last couple

00:18:54.540 of shows about

00:18:55.620 politicians who have

00:18:56.800 been telling us

00:18:57.380 to hashtag stay

00:18:58.520 home but themselves 0.76

00:19:00.000 were hanging out

00:19:01.160 in St. Barts

00:19:02.120 or Hawaii

00:19:02.960 where I think

00:19:04.000 pretty much everyone

00:19:05.200 in Alberta's

00:19:05.920 government was in

00:19:06.640 Hawaii in the last

00:19:07.500 month with the

00:19:08.020 exception of one

00:19:08.780 or two people.

00:19:10.000 And yeah,

00:19:10.360 we've had some

00:19:10.880 people resign from

00:19:11.920 cabinet and leadership

00:19:13.120 positions but beyond

00:19:14.600 that what real

00:19:15.800 recourse is there?

00:19:17.700 Well,

00:19:18.040 an op-ed in the

00:19:18.820 Edmonton Sun by

00:19:19.740 Franco Terrazano from

00:19:21.020 the Canadian Taxpayers

00:19:22.100 Federation says

00:19:22.940 these vacations show

00:19:24.300 why Albertans need

00:19:25.680 recall legislation.

00:19:27.480 Franco Terrazano

00:19:28.480 joins me on the

00:19:29.700 line now.

00:19:30.640 Good to talk to you

00:19:31.260 again.

00:19:31.460 Thanks for coming

00:19:31.920 on today.

00:19:33.120 Hey,

00:19:33.300 it's my pleasure.

00:19:33.900 Thanks for having

00:19:34.300 me on.

00:19:34.800 So for those of us

00:19:36.000 not familiar with

00:19:37.160 the concept,

00:19:38.060 what is recall

00:19:38.900 legislation?

00:19:40.380 Well,

00:19:40.860 recall legislation

00:19:41.560 is a very

00:19:42.560 important accountability

00:19:43.560 tool and it

00:19:44.700 allows voters to

00:19:46.300 collect petitions

00:19:47.100 and if we collect

00:19:47.880 enough petition,

00:19:48.740 it allows us to

00:19:49.500 force a by-election

00:19:50.380 so that we can

00:19:51.220 hold a misbehaving

00:19:52.820 politician accountable.

00:19:54.180 And what's so

00:19:54.600 important about this

00:19:55.320 is that right now

00:19:56.080 we can only hold

00:19:57.180 politicians accountable

00:19:58.180 once every four years

00:19:59.340 during an election.

00:20:00.540 But recall legislation

00:20:01.840 would give us the

00:20:02.960 ability that we

00:20:03.780 deserve to hold

00:20:05.220 politicians accountable

00:20:06.420 all year round.

00:20:08.280 That's, I think,

00:20:09.080 an important point

00:20:09.940 but you did allude to

00:20:10.940 it there.

00:20:11.280 You have elections.

00:20:12.780 The point of

00:20:13.320 politicians being

00:20:14.160 elected for terms

00:20:15.100 is that voters can

00:20:16.300 go and turf them

00:20:17.420 if they don't like

00:20:18.320 the job they're doing.

00:20:19.420 Why do you need

00:20:20.220 a stopgap?

00:20:21.100 Why do you need

00:20:21.480 something between

00:20:22.120 elections?

00:20:23.560 Well, I mean,

00:20:23.960 of course elections

00:20:24.720 are an important

00:20:25.500 accountability tool

00:20:26.660 but the problem is

00:20:27.880 is that they're only

00:20:28.360 once every four years.

00:20:29.640 Now, imagine if a boss

00:20:31.060 was only able to

00:20:32.220 hold their employees

00:20:33.080 accountable every four years.

00:20:34.640 I mean, certainly

00:20:35.200 you would see employees

00:20:36.240 have misbehaved,

00:20:38.560 maybe not show up

00:20:39.280 for work or do things

00:20:40.840 of that nature, right?

00:20:41.920 And so the same thing

00:20:42.660 applies here

00:20:43.260 because let's remember

00:20:44.140 it's the people

00:20:45.420 who are the boss

00:20:46.160 of politicians,

00:20:47.060 not the other way around.

00:20:48.280 Politicians aren't our boss.

00:20:49.640 We're their boss.

00:20:50.860 And as such,

00:20:51.660 we deserve the right

00:20:52.400 to hold them accountable

00:20:53.240 not once every four years,

00:20:54.820 not just during an election,

00:20:56.280 but all year round

00:20:57.380 and every year

00:20:58.160 during that mandate.

00:20:59.480 One concern that I have,

00:21:01.200 I mean, we know full well

00:21:02.240 the polarity

00:21:03.160 and polarization of politics,

00:21:05.060 not just in the U.S.

00:21:06.080 as we've seen

00:21:06.620 with the events of this week.

00:21:08.600 But even in Canada,

00:21:09.440 we know that there's

00:21:10.280 a lot of right

00:21:10.900 versus left divide

00:21:12.020 all the time.

00:21:13.300 Is there a risk

00:21:14.140 that recall

00:21:15.120 could be a bit weaponized

00:21:17.060 in a way where,

00:21:18.180 you know what,

00:21:18.740 let's say you're an NDP voter,

00:21:20.220 you vote NDP,

00:21:21.360 you don't like

00:21:21.920 that a conservative wins,

00:21:23.340 regardless of how well they do,

00:21:25.040 you want to just go right

00:21:25.900 to that recall process

00:21:27.000 because you don't like

00:21:27.820 that they won

00:21:28.280 in the first place.

00:21:29.640 Well, you know what,

00:21:30.180 you bring up

00:21:30.580 a really good point,

00:21:31.480 but I actually see

00:21:32.380 recall legislation

00:21:33.280 as doing the opposite.

00:21:34.420 I see it as a very productive way

00:21:36.540 to channel frustrations

00:21:38.280 into the democratic process,

00:21:40.000 right?

00:21:40.440 Because right now,

00:21:41.260 if we're frustrated,

00:21:42.340 we have to wait four years

00:21:43.780 to hold the politicians accountable.

00:21:46.000 I mean,

00:21:46.260 what choice do we really have?

00:21:48.400 But with recall legislation,

00:21:49.600 we can take our frustrations,

00:21:51.180 we can take our anger,

00:21:52.480 and we can put it

00:21:53.140 into the democratic process.

00:21:54.660 And that's why I see

00:21:55.600 another reason

00:21:56.520 why recall legislation

00:21:57.600 is so important.

00:21:59.060 And let's talk about

00:21:59.960 the travel scandal

00:22:01.840 that we're facing right now.

00:22:03.180 Right now,

00:22:04.200 we have to wait

00:22:04.940 for backroom political brokering

00:22:06.880 for a solution.

00:22:08.640 But you know who should

00:22:09.920 really have the final say?

00:22:11.420 It should be us,

00:22:12.240 the voters,

00:22:12.940 the people.

00:22:14.640 Yeah, that's actually

00:22:15.580 an interesting point

00:22:16.540 because at first,

00:22:17.740 in the Alberta context,

00:22:19.120 there was going to be

00:22:19.980 no punishment for it.

00:22:21.080 There was going to be

00:22:21.600 no penalty.

00:22:22.400 Jason Kenney,

00:22:23.040 as we talked about

00:22:23.680 on this show previously,

00:22:25.020 said that he didn't

00:22:26.220 lay out the expectations.

00:22:27.820 And it was only because

00:22:28.740 of backlash a few days later

00:22:30.460 that that tended to reverse.

00:22:31.760 So yes,

00:22:32.580 you could argue

00:22:33.140 there was a bit of

00:22:33.860 responsiveness to public anger,

00:22:35.560 but only if the prerogative

00:22:37.660 of the Premier's office

00:22:38.700 was to recognize that.

00:22:40.300 So you're right

00:22:41.220 that there otherwise

00:22:41.940 wouldn't have been a mechanism

00:22:42.880 if the Premier's office

00:22:44.180 had stuck with its initial

00:22:45.380 response to this.

00:22:46.620 You know,

00:22:47.180 that is correct

00:22:47.800 because originally

00:22:48.580 Premier Jason Kenney

00:22:49.600 said he didn't think

00:22:50.400 he could sanction

00:22:51.080 these politicians.

00:22:52.120 And of course,

00:22:53.080 at the Canadian Taxpayers

00:22:54.000 Federation,

00:22:54.360 we said,

00:22:54.900 well,

00:22:55.000 if you don't think

00:22:55.580 you can sanction

00:22:56.200 your politicians,

00:22:56.960 I'm sure voters

00:22:58.080 are up to the job.

00:22:59.360 And let's remember here,

00:23:01.080 you know,

00:23:01.300 we did see a cabinet minister

00:23:02.820 step down

00:23:03.560 and we did see politicians

00:23:04.820 lose their committee roles.

00:23:07.040 But at the end of the day,

00:23:08.520 the final say should be

00:23:10.080 with Albertans

00:23:10.980 or with voters,

00:23:11.940 whether or not

00:23:12.620 they remain

00:23:13.340 as members

00:23:14.160 of the legislature.

00:23:15.680 So we should have

00:23:16.580 the ability

00:23:17.040 to hold them accountable.

00:23:18.580 And that means

00:23:19.020 we should have

00:23:19.580 the ability

00:23:20.000 to fire them

00:23:21.020 when they misbehave.

00:23:22.600 Do you think

00:23:23.280 it is just about

00:23:24.100 having the ability

00:23:24.920 to recall politicians

00:23:26.200 or also would you

00:23:27.200 extend that

00:23:27.840 to recalling legislation,

00:23:29.800 which is another format

00:23:30.880 of recall

00:23:31.640 that we've seen

00:23:32.260 where instead of

00:23:33.160 getting people

00:23:33.720 out of office,

00:23:34.300 you just go after

00:23:35.080 specific laws

00:23:36.000 or bills

00:23:36.420 they've put into place?

00:23:37.840 I'm glad you brought

00:23:38.620 that up.

00:23:39.080 So we actually have

00:23:40.540 that in Canada

00:23:41.340 in one province

00:23:42.360 and that's BC.

00:23:43.300 In BC,

00:23:43.900 we have recall legislation,

00:23:45.340 but we also have

00:23:46.420 what you brought up there,

00:23:47.600 which is called

00:23:48.100 Citizens Initiative.

00:23:49.440 And that lets us

00:23:50.240 to repeal bad legislation

00:23:52.380 or bring forward legislation.

00:23:54.280 Now, that's very important,

00:23:55.260 right?

00:23:55.700 Because recall,

00:23:56.720 if people are the boss

00:23:58.140 over politicians,

00:23:58.900 we should be able

00:23:59.680 to fire them

00:24:00.220 when they misbehave.

00:24:01.380 But with Citizens Initiative,

00:24:02.820 if legislation,

00:24:03.920 if law belongs

00:24:04.680 to the people,

00:24:05.640 then we should be able

00:24:06.480 to repeal bad legislation

00:24:07.860 when it goes

00:24:08.420 against our wishes.

00:24:09.600 Now, let me provide you

00:24:10.780 with a pretty concrete example

00:24:12.600 of where that would have

00:24:13.740 applied in Alberta.

00:24:15.040 You know,

00:24:15.260 we have the NDP previously.

00:24:16.900 They came to office.

00:24:18.060 They didn't run

00:24:18.840 on a carbon tax.

00:24:19.900 And what did they do?

00:24:21.000 They hammered struggling families

00:24:22.480 and struggling businesses

00:24:23.480 with a carbon tax,

00:24:24.780 increased the cost of living

00:24:26.040 at the worst possible time.

00:24:27.600 Well, it's pretty obvious

00:24:28.740 that Albertans

00:24:29.340 did not want a carbon tax.

00:24:30.900 So if we had

00:24:31.620 Citizens Initiative,

00:24:32.640 we would have been able

00:24:33.500 to repeal that bad legislation

00:24:35.180 and give our economy

00:24:36.980 a little bit of a break.

00:24:38.520 Now, we know

00:24:39.280 that the British Columbia

00:24:40.320 recall is actually

00:24:41.820 pretty rare.

00:24:43.000 I mean,

00:24:43.220 I think there's only been

00:24:43.840 one instance

00:24:44.440 where it's been used.

00:24:45.640 So why do you think

00:24:46.420 there is a need

00:24:47.340 or an appetite for this

00:24:48.380 when the province

00:24:49.000 that has it

00:24:49.700 hasn't really seen

00:24:50.980 it used all that much?

00:24:52.400 Well, I'm glad

00:24:52.720 you brought that up.

00:24:53.280 And I'm going to say

00:24:53.860 two things on that.

00:24:55.160 So first,

00:24:56.020 you know,

00:24:56.280 BC's legislation

00:24:57.640 has been in place

00:24:58.280 since 1995,

00:24:59.560 only one successful

00:25:00.720 recall campaign.

00:25:02.320 But the reason for that

00:25:03.380 is the high threshold.

00:25:05.380 You know,

00:25:05.540 you need 40%

00:25:06.480 of the votes

00:25:07.060 to even trigger

00:25:08.700 a by-election.

00:25:09.740 And that's one

00:25:10.280 of the reasons

00:25:10.840 the Canadian Taxpayers

00:25:11.780 Federation,

00:25:12.320 we're recommending

00:25:13.220 that Premier Kenney

00:25:14.360 do a threshold

00:25:15.300 of 25%

00:25:16.360 of the vote.

00:25:16.960 So less onerous

00:25:18.340 for BC

00:25:19.360 or then BC.

00:25:21.120 Now,

00:25:21.300 here's another

00:25:21.760 important part

00:25:22.560 about recall legislation.

00:25:24.000 Not only is it

00:25:24.680 important to actually

00:25:25.720 force a by-election,

00:25:27.820 but recall legislation

00:25:28.860 in and of itself

00:25:29.660 could actually prevent

00:25:30.760 a politician

00:25:31.700 from misbehaving

00:25:32.580 in the first place.

00:25:33.800 You know,

00:25:34.040 I don't think

00:25:34.520 it takes a PhD

00:25:35.380 in psychology

00:25:36.100 to understand

00:25:36.920 that a politician

00:25:37.660 will probably

00:25:38.400 behave better

00:25:39.640 if they have to

00:25:40.760 face the voters

00:25:41.500 tomorrow

00:25:42.020 rather than

00:25:42.860 in four years.

00:25:44.320 Yeah,

00:25:44.800 when I used

00:25:45.280 to work in politics,

00:25:46.160 there was the old

00:25:46.920 adage that you get

00:25:47.800 all the unpopular

00:25:48.500 stuff out of the way

00:25:49.340 in year one

00:25:50.020 because you know

00:25:50.600 that everyone

00:25:50.940 will have forgotten

00:25:51.580 about it by year four.

00:25:52.780 But if there is

00:25:53.780 that sort of

00:25:54.400 sword of Damocles

00:25:55.340 hanging over their

00:25:56.160 head with recall,

00:25:57.160 they have to have

00:25:58.000 that year four

00:25:58.620 mentality every day,

00:25:59.740 not just with laws,

00:26:00.600 but even with just

00:26:01.260 personal behaviors

00:26:02.540 and decisions

00:26:03.160 like with the

00:26:03.700 vacation scandals.

00:26:05.100 Yeah,

00:26:05.240 or personal expenses,

00:26:06.580 right?

00:26:06.920 Maybe a politician

00:26:07.680 will think twice

00:26:08.580 before dipping their

00:26:09.480 fingers into the

00:26:10.200 taxpayer cookie jar.

00:26:11.500 And here's another

00:26:12.520 thing in Alberta.

00:26:13.360 We also had it

00:26:14.240 in 2020.

00:26:15.600 We had a huge

00:26:16.640 expense scandal

00:26:17.460 from one of our

00:26:18.120 counselors,

00:26:18.800 Councillor Meg Leoka,

00:26:20.120 who went to Quebec,

00:26:21.660 spent a ton of money

00:26:22.980 more than his

00:26:23.800 colleagues on even

00:26:24.900 things like steak

00:26:25.680 and martinis.

00:26:26.500 Well,

00:26:26.880 you know,

00:26:27.060 if we had that

00:26:27.840 recall legislation

00:26:29.020 extended to the

00:26:30.060 local level,

00:26:30.980 he probably would

00:26:31.780 have thought twice

00:26:32.420 before he did that.

00:26:33.860 You have obviously

00:26:35.320 an Alberta context

00:26:36.340 to your op-ed

00:26:37.500 and most of the

00:26:38.260 discussion we've had

00:26:39.040 now.

00:26:39.380 You are the Alberta

00:26:40.180 director of the

00:26:41.080 CTF,

00:26:41.860 but is there

00:26:42.400 any reason this

00:26:43.180 couldn't be

00:26:43.620 implemented in

00:26:44.500 other provinces

00:26:45.120 or even at the

00:26:46.000 federal level?

00:26:47.160 Well,

00:26:47.280 I think we should

00:26:47.920 see it in other

00:26:48.500 provinces and at

00:26:49.380 the federal level.

00:26:50.100 It's not just a

00:26:50.680 Western Canadian

00:26:51.400 thing.

00:26:52.100 I mean,

00:26:52.340 if I'm not

00:26:52.880 mistaken,

00:26:53.440 this whole holiday

00:26:54.140 scandal broke

00:26:55.040 out because of

00:26:55.960 an Ontario minister,

00:26:57.560 right?

00:26:58.060 Yeah,

00:26:58.260 that's our proud

00:26:59.260 export to the

00:27:00.080 rest of the

00:27:00.460 country,

00:27:00.860 the vacation

00:27:01.340 scandal.

00:27:02.400 So,

00:27:02.760 yeah,

00:27:03.060 so there you go.

00:27:04.020 Clearly,

00:27:04.400 it would have been

00:27:05.000 helpful for the

00:27:06.080 good people of

00:27:06.900 Ontario.

00:27:07.860 And remember,

00:27:08.480 it's not just

00:27:09.040 about whether or

00:27:09.720 not the politician

00:27:10.620 holds on to their

00:27:11.800 cabinet position or

00:27:13.120 not.

00:27:13.400 It should be up to

00:27:14.460 the voters whether

00:27:15.340 or not they remain

00:27:16.100 as politicians.

00:27:17.700 Now,

00:27:18.280 I would say that on

00:27:19.100 this,

00:27:19.420 there's probably reason

00:27:20.560 to be a little bit

00:27:21.480 hopeful.

00:27:21.980 Jason Kenney did

00:27:22.720 promise this

00:27:23.340 initially,

00:27:24.260 and it sounds like

00:27:25.520 there's at least

00:27:26.040 some movement on

00:27:27.060 it.

00:27:27.240 Yeah,

00:27:28.100 well,

00:27:28.360 so when Premier

00:27:29.200 Kenney,

00:27:29.580 when he was

00:27:29.940 campaigning for

00:27:30.640 votes back before

00:27:31.440 the 2019 provincial

00:27:32.580 election in Alberta,

00:27:33.720 he promised the

00:27:34.840 very important tool

00:27:35.760 of recall.

00:27:37.080 Last year,

00:27:38.020 in the 2020

00:27:38.760 February throne

00:27:40.060 speech from our

00:27:40.840 government,

00:27:41.440 they also doubled

00:27:42.400 down on that

00:27:43.300 promise of recall

00:27:44.400 legislation.

00:27:45.140 But,

00:27:45.440 you know,

00:27:45.800 we're still

00:27:46.900 waiting for it.

00:27:48.260 We did have a

00:27:49.060 private member's

00:27:49.780 bill bring recall

00:27:50.640 to the floor,

00:27:51.260 but that died.

00:27:52.620 But just recently,

00:27:53.700 actually,

00:27:54.040 we're hearing Premier

00:27:54.840 Kenney now say

00:27:55.740 that he's going to

00:27:56.260 bring it forward

00:27:56.860 during this winter

00:27:58.240 session,

00:27:58.880 so we're going to

00:27:59.380 be watching for it.

00:28:00.140 But this is

00:28:00.520 something that we

00:28:01.080 need.

00:28:01.720 It's something that

00:28:02.240 would have come in

00:28:02.880 handy to deal with

00:28:04.080 this holiday scandal,

00:28:05.840 and it's something

00:28:06.440 that we're definitely

00:28:06.920 going to have to

00:28:07.520 keep holding his

00:28:08.160 feet to the fire on.

00:28:09.700 Yeah,

00:28:10.160 and I think

00:28:10.540 certainly other

00:28:11.220 provinces in the

00:28:12.060 country should be

00:28:12.780 paying attention to

00:28:13.580 this.

00:28:13.900 I mean,

00:28:14.160 I know with the

00:28:14.680 Reform Party

00:28:15.320 roots in Alberta,

00:28:16.360 there is a lot

00:28:17.300 more of a direct

00:28:18.120 democracy origin

00:28:19.560 there,

00:28:20.120 but as you've

00:28:21.000 mentioned,

00:28:21.540 I mean,

00:28:21.820 political accountability

00:28:22.620 is not limited to

00:28:24.040 the West at all.

00:28:25.560 Well,

00:28:25.980 it shouldn't be

00:28:26.560 limited to the West,

00:28:27.640 and it really is.

00:28:28.880 If the politicians,

00:28:30.000 if they think that

00:28:30.680 they're behaving the

00:28:31.640 way that their

00:28:32.060 constituents want

00:28:33.440 them to behave,

00:28:34.120 then they really

00:28:34.580 should have no

00:28:35.160 issue with this,

00:28:35.940 right?

00:28:36.500 What we saw in BC

00:28:37.500 is we saw a pretty

00:28:38.620 big scandal force

00:28:40.960 the issue.

00:28:41.900 These types of

00:28:43.540 things don't tend to

00:28:44.380 happen over day to

00:28:45.340 day,

00:28:45.880 right?

00:28:46.520 Recall legislation

00:28:47.560 tends to be invoked

00:28:48.800 when there is a

00:28:49.760 scandal,

00:28:50.100 when you get a

00:28:50.880 politician who's

00:28:51.680 dipping their hands

00:28:52.500 into the taxpayer

00:28:53.300 cookie jar.

00:28:54.260 So if politicians

00:28:55.040 aren't doing that,

00:28:55.960 then they shouldn't

00:28:56.420 have anything to

00:28:57.080 worry about.

00:28:58.000 Yeah,

00:28:58.460 it's the epitome of

00:28:59.400 one of those pieces

00:29:00.400 of legislation you

00:29:01.360 want to have but

00:29:02.140 never want to have

00:29:02.900 to use.

00:29:03.560 So we'll certainly

00:29:04.500 keep an eye out for

00:29:05.340 it.

00:29:05.520 Franco Terrazano,

00:29:06.480 Alberta Director for

00:29:07.540 the Canadian

00:29:08.100 Taxpayers Federation,

00:29:09.700 and that op-ed you

00:29:11.000 can find at the

00:29:11.920 Edmonton Sun.

00:29:13.040 Sun-soaked vacations

00:29:14.280 show why Albertans

00:29:15.420 need recall legislation.

00:29:17.000 Franco,

00:29:17.360 thanks again for

00:29:17.940 coming on today.

00:29:19.040 Hey, man,

00:29:19.400 thanks for having me,

00:29:19.940 Dylan.

00:29:20.520 And that does it

00:29:21.460 for us.

00:29:22.100 We will be back

00:29:22.780 next week with more

00:29:23.780 of Canada's most

00:29:24.640 irreverent talk show.

00:29:25.800 This is the Andrew

00:29:26.420 Lawton Show on

00:29:27.220 True North.

00:29:27.980 Thanks for listening

00:29:28.680 to the Andrew

00:29:29.280 Lawton Show.

00:29:30.120 Support the program

00:29:30.940 by donating to

00:29:31.740 True North at

00:29:32.440 www.tnc.news.

Juno News - January 07, 2021

Breaching Democracy

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