Juno News - Canada just banned clinical therapy for children thinking of transitioning

00:00:00.000 Parliament unanimously passed Bill C-4, the supposed ban on conversion therapy,

00:00:05.680 but this clunky bill with broad definitions not only hampers free speech, it could also

00:00:11.000 dangerously enable a radical ideology that tells children that gender does not exist.

00:00:15.840 I'm Candice Malcolm and this is The Candice Malcolm Show.

00:00:22.680 Hi everyone, thank you so much for tuning into the podcast. Now as you know from listening to

00:00:27.100 the show and tuning into True North, I wasn't very happy to see all of Parliament come together

00:00:31.820 to ban this bill. First of all, the role of the opposition is to oppose. So if the Liberals

00:00:36.740 introduce a bill, the Conservatives are there to point out the reasons why the bill is flawed and

00:00:41.260 try to push back. In fact, the previous two times that this bill was introduced, the Conservatives

00:00:46.400 came up with a handful of reasons why they didn't support this bill, the definitions were too broad,

00:00:51.420 it could needlessly criminalize conversations between children and their parents. And yet,

00:00:56.580 when the bill was reintroduced, the Conservatives threw away all of their complaints and issues

00:01:01.120 with the bill, and they all unanimously supported this bill. We saw a silly image in the House of

00:01:06.660 Commons of all the MPs jumping up and down, cheering, congratulating themselves, glad-handing,

00:01:12.900 hugging each other, and dancing. They were so happy that they passed this bill, which was really never

00:01:18.680 explained to the Canadian public the way that the media talked about it. It seemed like, you know,

00:01:23.260 this was such an obvious situation that we had to ban this bill. But my guest on the show today,

00:01:29.220 like me, has some issues and some concerns with this bill, and we wanted to go into it

00:01:34.220 in a bit more depth. So I'm very pleased today to be joined by Dr. Deborah So. Deborah So is a sex

00:01:40.420 neurologist, author, journalist, political commentator, and the host of the Deborah So podcast.

00:01:45.840 She writes about the science of human sexuality, cultural politics, and academic censorship.

00:01:50.820 She's appeared on the Megyn Kelly show, Real Time with Bill Maher, the Joe Rogan Experience,

00:01:55.980 and the Ben Shapiro show, some of the biggest podcasts and shows in the world. In her recent

00:02:00.540 book, The End of Gender, Dr. So challenges the notion that gender is a social construct and a

00:02:06.160 spectrum. And she challenges the idea that there is no difference between how male and female brains 0.97

00:02:10.900 operate. So Dr. Deborah So, thank you so much for joining the podcast today.

00:02:15.700 Hi, Candice. Thank you for having me.

00:02:17.260 So, so when this bill passed in Parliament, you told True North that it would have a chilling

00:02:24.580 message, it sends a chilling message. I'm wondering if you could elaborate a little bit and explain to

00:02:29.620 us why you also opposed this bill.

00:02:32.960 Sure. So I think at best, it is a well intentioned move, but it is anti scientific in that it does not

00:02:40.220 differentiate between sexual orientation and gender identity. It treats the two as though they are the

00:02:45.200 same thing, even though they are different. So conversion therapy for sexual orientation,

00:02:50.040 I do not support because it does not work. Sexual orientation is biological, it's immutable, 0.96

00:02:56.920 it cannot be changed. So someone who's gay or bisexual cannot be made to be straight. Gender identity is 0.63

00:03:02.880 different from sexual orientation in that it can change over the lifespan, particularly in young

00:03:08.560 children. So it's not appropriate to criminalize therapeutic interventions that are not affirmation

00:03:16.200 or any questioning on the part of a clinician to try and understand someone's feeling of gender

00:03:21.300 dysphoria. So gender dysphoria is when someone feels more like the opposite sex than their birth sex. If 0.52

00:03:26.840 someone says that they want to transition, it's important for a clinician to be able to understand

00:03:31.080 really why. And I don't do clinical work anymore. But my colleagues who are still in the field,

00:03:36.920 are definitely terrified. And they really feel like they're not able to do their jobs properly.

00:03:42.120 They're not able to interrogate their patients. Obviously, you would do it in a way that is very

00:03:46.040 sensitive and appropriate to your patient. But the fact that that's completely been taken off the table

00:03:53.480 is very worrisome. And so as a result, I do think there's going to be an increase of

00:03:58.280 detransitioners in the future. So these are people who transition, realize that it doesn't make them

00:04:02.600 feel better. And then they go back to living as their birth sex. Sometimes they have permanent 1.00

00:04:07.000 side effects of the interventions that they've undergone. And that's another part of the conversation

00:04:11.000 that no one seems to want to really talk about as well. Well, so it's funny that you say that you

00:04:16.040 think that this bill was well intentioned. And I think that most people when they hear the term

00:04:20.120 conversion therapy, their minds go to I remember there was one movie from the 1990s,

00:04:25.960 called But I'm a Cheerleader. And it was this sort of really funny, satirical comedy about this

00:04:32.840 woman who this high school girl who her parents thought she was gay. So they sent her to one of 1.00

00:04:38.040 these conversion therapy camps. And, and, you know, being around all these other gay kids, 0.74

00:04:42.840 she realized that she actually really was gay. And so it had the opposite impact. But that's sort of

00:04:47.560 what we think about when we think of conversion therapy. But according to the conservative,

00:04:52.760 the earlier opposition they had to this bill, it's not just conversion therapy, that's sort of a

00:04:57.720 catchall. But really, what it does ban is, is like you said, conversations, therapy, you know,

00:05:03.720 some of the work, the clinical work that would be done prior to going through such a life altering

00:05:10.360 situation. And I know you said that gender identity changes over a lifetime, but sexual orientation does

00:05:17.480 not. But even if you were, you know, say you were gay or bisexual, you could still go to therapy,

00:05:23.720 you could still perhaps want to seek a therapist or talk to someone at your church or talk to your

00:05:28.360 parents about your sexual orientation. Did you see anything in this bill that would ban those kinds

00:05:36.760 of conversations that would prevent people from being able to get therapeutic help from a trained

00:05:41.240 professional that they would need to? And then and then with regards to gender identity, like what

00:05:48.280 would the real impact be? What would people who are like, would clinical specialists, would they have

00:05:55.160 to shut down their clinics? Or is does this bill close down some of these these offices where there are

00:06:01.880 trained psychologists or clinical therapists? How would that impact? What would that impact look like?

00:06:09.400 Right. So with say conversion therapy for sexual orientation, also known as reparative therapy,

00:06:16.040 some of those treatments in the past were definitely very gruesome and really unethical.

00:06:21.800 It when I think about the difference between say children and adults, I could understand a little bit

00:06:27.320 more. I mean, I'm just generally not a fan of people banning things. But I do, I understand the

00:06:32.680 approach of wanting to prevent harm against children. So to ban conversion therapy for sexual orientation,

00:06:39.960 that treats children, I'm a little bit more understanding of because kids can't, I mean,

00:06:45.080 if they're, if their parents are overriding decisions, they may or may not be making the best

00:06:48.680 decision for the child. For adults, it still makes me uncomfortable, really, if someone wants to seek

00:06:53.800 therapy to change their sexual orientation. Although from my understanding is some of these conversations

00:06:59.000 are not necessarily about change, it's more about how to live with these feelings and not act on them. To

00:07:03.800 which I would still say, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with being gay or bisexual

00:07:08.280 myself. I'm straight, but I grew up in the gay community. So I really think acceptances would

00:07:13.320 be a better approach. But with this bill, even adults are not able to seek appropriate treatment

00:07:21.000 with regard to gender identity. So if they're questioning their gender, if they're, you know,

00:07:25.880 people feel like the opposite sex, or they identify more of the opposite sex for a whole number of

00:07:31.960 reasons. And we see especially in young adults, adolescents who are born female, many of them,

00:07:37.880 their desire to transition and live as male, this comes out of the blue very suddenly, for many of them,

00:07:43.720 is driven by many things that don't actually have anything to do with their gender or their sex. So sex

00:07:49.640 refers to biology, gender refers to how you feel about your biological sex. And so it's important

00:07:55.080 to be able to get at why someone feels unhappy about being female. So many cases, these individuals

00:08:02.280 have, say, a history of sexual trauma, some of them are on the autism spectrum, some of them are lesbian.

00:08:07.720 So those are important conversations to have. And so now with these, any sort of probing from a clinician

00:08:16.600 that's been criminalized, so they'll face up to five years in prison, potentially,

00:08:21.320 is really going to me, I mean, who's who's willing to take that risk? I mean, of people I know in the

00:08:27.000 field, only a very small handful of colleagues are willing to take that risk. And that's because

00:08:32.120 they're close to retirement. And so they really, they really don't have much to lose, or they don't

00:08:36.680 really care at this point. But for newer clinicians, especially in less experienced clinicians,

00:08:42.200 they're, they're definitely way too scared. So I mean, there was one very prominent case of my

00:08:46.760 colleague, Dr. Ken Zucker, who had his clinic shuttered here in Toronto. This was about six

00:08:53.240 years ago. So that was that really set another, I think, precedent for many people in the field to

00:08:58.200 look at someone like him, he's a world expert in gender dysphoria in children. And, and so people are

00:09:05.560 saying, Well, if he's not safe, what a chance do I have to be protected?

00:09:10.040 Wow. So so what do you think, Deborah, what do you think the impact will be in terms of so so so

00:09:16.840 say there's a child who feels gender dysphoria, identifies with the other gender, and decides,

00:09:24.840 you know, that they can't that well, because of this new law, because of this new bill, they can't

00:09:29.880 access the therapy that they may need, they go ahead and transition, you mentioned that that

00:09:37.240 because of this, with more people transitioning, that more people will detransition because the

00:09:42.360 the feeling may be may change over the over the lifetime, or they realize, like you said earlier,

00:09:46.840 that changing your gender doesn't actually fix the problem, because they didn't they didn't talk it

00:09:51.160 through. Can you talk a little bit about this idea of of detransitioning and what that looks like?

00:09:57.800 Right. So for those individuals, I mean, I think it's especially sad because for I do support

00:10:04.840 transitioning adults, I always want to emphasize that. I think especially if a clinician is able

00:10:10.120 to do their job and ask the right questions and make a proper diagnosis, and determine whether

00:10:15.720 transition is actually right for someone, I do think it can help people feel better about their

00:10:19.560 gender dysphoria. But what we're seeing in this case with especially the the young women,

00:10:24.200 they're not being challenged, in many cases, they are affirmed outright, no one is asking them about

00:10:29.560 what else is going on in their lives. And so whatever it is that is actually driving their

00:10:34.120 desire to live as male, or in some cases, non binary, which is a third gender, which from a

00:10:40.360 scientific perspective, does not exist, there are two genders, two sexes, and I go into all the science 0.57

00:10:45.400 behind this in my book, The End of Gender. So whatever it is that someone is dealing with,

00:10:51.000 that's still going to be there after they've transitioned, if that's not what's really driving

00:10:54.680 their gender dysphoria. So they're either going to deal with it now with a good therapist in an 0.83

00:11:00.280 ideal world, or they're going to wait six months, a year, whenever they're done transitioning and

00:11:05.320 realize that they still have these other issues that they have to deal with. And then they're going

00:11:09.800 to detransition and deal with those issues later down the line. And so that's what you see happening

00:11:13.960 with detransitioners, they will say, I have anxiety, I have unresolved feelings about me, 1.00

00:11:20.840 I think one common theme is for young women not really liking being sexualized, you know,

00:11:25.240 they go through puberty, their bodies change, and they don't appreciate suddenly they have men, 0.85

00:11:30.280 the age of their father or older, staring at them in public, and it makes them uncomfortable,

00:11:34.920 understandably, and no one is saying to them, you know, that's a really unfortunate part, and some

00:11:39.480 sometimes of being a woman, but you know, as you get older, things will change. Sometimes you grow

00:11:45.880 comfortable with with the attention that you're getting in some cases. And so instead, people are

00:11:51.000 saying to these young women, no problem, you know, if you want to have a double mastectomy, take hormones, 0.92

00:11:57.640 some cases surgeries they have they remove their uterus and their ovaries, so they're not able to have a

00:12:03.720 family if they change their mind later, it's really devastating. And the other thing that really upsets me

00:12:08.200 is to see that these people are completely ignored for the most part by the mainstream.

00:12:12.200 They're told that they don't exist or they don't matter because people are afraid that

00:12:16.760 talking about detransition and the fact that they exist is going to be used to halt transition across

00:12:22.440 the board for everyone. Or some people will say the only reason they detransitioned is because of

00:12:27.000 social pressure and that it's, you know, socially unacceptable to be transgender. But if you actually

00:12:31.800 talk to them and listen to their stories, you really hear another side to this narrative that's

00:12:38.120 being promoted. It just sounds like it's so politicized. And it seems to me the solution

00:12:44.760 is more conversations and more talking. And yet, here we have a bill that every parliamentarian agreed

00:12:50.120 on, including the Senate, they just fast tracked it to say less, less conversation, which just seems

00:12:56.760 to be the antithesis of a free society like Canada. Debra, I had a question about what we're seeing

00:13:03.160 in other parts of the world. So it seems that Canada is sort of taking the opposite approach,

00:13:07.480 and other countries have taken a step back when it comes to concerns about transitioning. Finland

00:13:13.640 last year encouraged psychotherapy before transition treatment. Australia and New Zealand

00:13:19.880 recently made psychotherapy mandatory or essential. And clinics in Sweden stopped prescribing puberty

00:13:26.200 blocking drugs and cross-sex hormones to patients under the age of 18. So why do you think

00:13:31.960 Canada is going the opposite direction from these other Western liberal democracies?

00:13:37.400 I'm not sure. You know, I'm very proud to be Canadian. I love my country. And I don't know

00:13:42.280 why this is happening. It's really disappointing, because I do think the rest of the world is

00:13:47.480 is waking up to this much sooner than we are. And my hope is just that, I mean, I don't know,

00:13:53.240 at this point, the bill has just passed. I don't know what more it's going to take. But I do,

00:13:57.160 I don't think most people are actually on board with this. I think most people just feel afraid

00:14:02.920 to speak up about it. They don't want to be called hateful or bigoted or to be called transphobic.

00:14:09.320 And especially to see pretty much everyone across the board publicly who speaks on this saying or in

00:14:15.800 the mainstream, at least saying that this is a good thing for these kids. I think many people also maybe

00:14:20.600 genuinely believe that maybe they think that the science is in support of this, which it is not.

00:14:27.720 But yeah, I'm a bit at a loss for words, because it is, it's not a good direction that we're headed in.

00:14:34.040 Let's pick up on that. You just said that the science is not on board on this. I know in your

00:14:38.200 book, you talk about some of the myths with regards to gender and gender identity. One of the myths that

00:14:42.760 you talk about is the idea that gender is fluid and that you can you can change your gender,

00:14:47.800 you can go back and forth a little bit. Can you can you talk a little bit about about that and

00:14:53.400 talk about the science behind it? Sure. So for children with gender dysphoria,

00:14:58.200 the vast majority of them, once they hit puberty, they will de-cyst. So they will no longer feel

00:15:04.040 dysphoric and they're more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood and not be transgender. But this 0.64

00:15:10.760 larger idea about gender fluidity, I think it comes from this idea that most people feel a mix of

00:15:17.640 masculine and feminine. I don't think there are many of us who feel 100% masculine or 100% feminine

00:15:23.240 all of the time. And what I really think the movement is about is these individuals are looking

00:15:29.400 to dismantle norms and deconstruct things. And you see this in all areas of identity with regard to

00:15:35.400 even race, I would say, or I mean, just everything. This is a larger trend we see in academia really being

00:15:40.920 pushed out now into the rest of the world and it's affecting everybody. Doesn't matter where you work

00:15:46.200 or even if you're trying to mind your own business, it's going to impede on your life in some way.

00:15:51.000 So the gender fluidity thing, I think it's also people just really want to be special to some

00:15:55.640 extent and show that they're somehow different from other people. But gender definitely is binary.

00:16:01.080 There are two of them. It's not that complicated.

00:16:04.360 So this is okay. So there's two genders. It's not that complicated. How come then we see

00:16:11.480 so many people claiming that there's what dozens or even hundreds of gender that there's infinite

00:16:16.360 numbers of gender? Where do they get that from? And can you just go through the science a little more

00:16:20.920 as to how do we know that there's only two genders? Sure. So biological sex is determined by gametes. 1.00

00:16:28.200 So these are mature reproductive cells. So you have eggs and you have sperm. So sex is binary.

00:16:33.800 It is also not socially constructed, which if it were, that would make absolutely no sense. But

00:16:38.520 some people do claim that it is not. And then with gender, gender refers to, as I mentioned,

00:16:44.360 so sex is biological. Gender refers to how we feel in relation to our biological sex. So for 99% of us,

00:16:52.360 our biological sex and our gender identity are in alignment. For that 1% of people who are either

00:16:58.680 transgender or intersex, some intersex people identify as transgender. So intersex people have 0.96

00:17:05.000 a combination of both male and female anatomy, but they too prefer to live within the binary because

00:17:10.600 some activists say, oh, intersex people prove that biological sex is a spectrum or gender is a spectrum.

00:17:17.000 Most intersex people actually prefer to live as male or female. They don't want to be considered 1.00

00:17:21.160 something in between. And it's actually the activists who are, in many cases, not intersex themselves,

00:17:27.800 who are going at making these proclamations. I would say the same thing about the trans community.

00:17:33.160 Everyday transgender people are really lovely. And many of them reach out to me to thank me for the

00:17:37.160 things I say, which is really a relief for me. So what you have is non-transgender allies, many of whom 0.99

00:17:43.480 will identify as one of these exotic genders, you know, that you mentioned there are billions or however

00:17:47.560 many now. And I really think it's just about them trying to get intersectional points and to seem

00:17:53.720 relevant. Because if you are just a, I don't know, I don't want to, I don't want to point to specific

00:17:59.720 identity markers, but it makes someone seem like they have more validity to what they're saying.

00:18:05.560 If they are this, a gender that is, a gender that is not male or female, but I'm trying to think

00:18:12.520 if there's anything else in the silence I can tell you about that.

00:18:14.840 Well, I don't want to be cruel or anything, but when I look through the list, some of them are

00:18:19.400 weird. Like, I don't understand how someone's gender could be gender bender. That's, that's one 1.00

00:18:23.480 of the listed ones that's recognized in the U.S. I don't, gender bender. I don't, I don't understand 1.00

00:18:28.040 how that's a, how that's a gender. But I think, like you said, these people just want to be unique

00:18:32.920 and different. And, and it's just like, you know, you can dye your hair and you can do something to

00:18:37.080 make yourself seem more legitimate while you can also claim to have a very unique gender. And that might 1.00

00:18:43.080 give you some, some points in the intersectional, intersectional community that were just a final

00:18:47.640 question. So, you know, we're talking about bill C4. I know it used to be called bill C6, but this

00:18:51.880 bill to ban conversion therapy. If you, if you were presenting at committee or you had an opportunity

00:18:58.040 to talk to MPs who drafted this bill or who voted on this bill, what would you advise that they change

00:19:04.360 about it so that it, it still enables, you know, proper and important conversations between

00:19:13.480 children that may be feeling gender dysphoric and their clinicians, or, you know, what, what, what,

00:19:19.320 what could be changed about this bill to make it something that you would feel comfortable being

00:19:23.160 passed into law? I think that's a really good question. I think gender theory and gender ideology

00:19:29.560 have to be removed entirely. But I, I guess in terms of what's specified within it, I would say

00:19:37.720 definitely clinicians should not be criminalized for, for how they choose to approach therapy.

00:19:46.200 I guess it's difficult to really know because there are some clinicians who could potentially

00:19:50.920 be coming from the perspective of being discriminatory, say towards transgender people and having that

00:19:56.920 be their motivation for asking particular questions or disincentivizing someone from transition.

00:20:05.400 But in that case, I think it should be really up to the patient and parents to make a determination.

00:20:13.640 I don't, I feel in some ways, like, I, I, I understand it's difficult for parents,

00:20:20.520 but I think they should try to really be as involved in the process as well. Like I don't,

00:20:25.640 I, I, I'm torn here because overall I would just say, you know, let the clinicians do what they,

00:20:32.280 let them do their job. And if there are problems there, then treat that on a case-by-case basis.

00:20:37.160 But this is really not, I mean, my sense with this bill is it's really about trying to appease

00:20:42.840 certain groups. I think, I think there's more of a fear of the backlash from certain groups.

00:20:47.640 And when you take this really broad approach, especially when it comes to policy, it's not

00:20:52.520 going to fit particular cases. I don't think in this case, it will necessarily even help most

00:20:58.360 people who are struggling with this.

00:21:00.280 It's such a shame and it's too bad. I, I would go even further and say that it's mostly just about

00:21:06.440 virtue signaling and finding the latest sort of fad out there to, to champion. That seems to be

00:21:11.800 what the Trudeau government is all about. Well, Dr. DeBrisseau, thank you so much for,

00:21:17.000 for joining the program. Thank you for shedding light on this complicated, but very important

00:21:22.280 issues. It's great to have you on the program and Merry Christmas to you and your family as well.

00:21:26.120 Merry Christmas. Thanks for having me back.

00:21:28.440 All right. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm Candace Malcolm, and this is The Candace Malcolm Show.

00:21:34.440 I'm travelling and I'm also brothers.

00:21:35.560 I'm just looking forward to seeing what's going on. I'm going to do now there in my

00:21:40.200 relationship between the efektor Yio Gurdjian and Ahh and the tryin probably

00:21:57.480 in these in this detail today.

Juno News - December 15, 2021

Canada just banned clinical therapy for children thinking of transitioning

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