00:00:38.540This story is really an interesting one here.
00:00:41.480In Saskatchewan, there is one of just a couple of these clinics in Canada where you can actually get paid in a gift card of, I think, like $40 or $50 to donate plasma.
00:00:53.360And it's a private clinic, it's for-profit, Saskatchewan people have had this opportunity for the last few years,
00:01:00.360and now the NDP in Saskatchewan is saying that they want to shut this down.
00:01:04.480And they're going to put forward a bill to that effect.
00:01:07.620And what's so interesting about this case is that their objection is that this company is paying people from Saskatchewan for their blood,
00:01:15.460and then selling it to people outside the country.
00:01:18.700And I find that so odd, because one of the reasons there is such a plasma issue in Canada is because there aren't enough people in Canada donating plasma.
00:01:28.180So we've created this commodity market because of how governments have restricted compensation.
00:01:34.400And I know there's a health issue here, but I think there's also a free market issue.
00:01:38.420And I wanted to bring you in for that reason predominantly here.
00:01:42.080What do you take from this policy that the NDP is floating?
00:01:45.040The kind of scary or ridiculous aspect of this is that Canadian Blood Services has actually declined to take plasma from these Canadian private clinics.
00:01:57.660They produce plasma at about 25% of the cost when you compare these private clinics to the strictly voluntary donor system done through Canadian Blood Services.
00:02:09.740And so if people have objections in terms of where the plasma ends up, their criticism should not go to the clinic, and it certainly shouldn't go to the donors.
00:02:20.400It should go to Canadian Blood Services.
00:02:23.300Yeah, and that's why the moral quandary here is really ridiculous.
00:02:27.660I mean, it's not even like our governments, and it's province by province, but it's not even like these provinces have drawn a line in the sand and said, you know, money for plasma is wrong, full stop, we won't take it.
00:02:37.720It's worse than that because the shortage of plasma in Canada means that we're only getting anywhere from 17% to 20% of our plasma domestically, and then 80% is coming from the U.S., from private for-profit clinics who are paying plasma donors.
00:02:53.880So if you, I mean, forgetting the export side of this, if you are to cut off the supply of plasma that is sourced in Canada with paid donors, all you're doing is paying more people outside of Canada.
00:03:06.040And it's this very circular and nonsensical argument, and I'm wondering where you think that comes from.
00:03:11.540Is it ideology? Is it general government incompetence?
00:03:15.680I mean, where do you think that this is coming from?
00:03:19.560So I think it comes mostly from an ideology that people shouldn't be allowed to do this, that it's somehow exploiting the people who donate their plasma.
00:03:32.600And, I mean, obviously there's a giant hypocrisy in banning it domestically but importing it from other sources who pay their donors.
00:03:43.420I haven't heard anyone on the other side, whether that be Blood Watch or any of these other advocacy groups, actually answer that question or justify it.
00:03:53.940None of them are advocating that we do exportation of plasma, and I think the reason for that is because they know it would be disastrous, and ultimately patients would pay the price.
00:04:03.300In terms of being exploited, I think the real issue here is that it's, for the most part, unfounded.
00:04:13.280When we look at donors, whether they're paid or not, they're always informed about the risks.
00:04:20.380They have to meet specific health requirements to qualify in order to be able to donate plasma.
00:04:24.920So in this process, it's pretty secure, and it's disingenuous to call those donors exploited when they're informed, healthy, and consenting adults.
00:04:41.240And so I think it really does come down to ideology, but the problem is that if you want to call them ideologues, they're not committed enough to their own viewpoint to actually take their policy position that one step further.
00:04:57.900Yeah, I think that is in and of itself the most important point here, is that we're talking about something where, I mean, I don't like blind ideology anyway, but it's not even like their ideology is consistent.
00:05:10.340And I'm glad you touched on that point, because when we look at the facts of this, I mean, forget about the perspectives of, you know, free market ideologues or anti-free market ideologues.
00:05:21.020Health Canada has said repeatedly that there's no issue, there's no quality issue.
00:05:25.820So all of the arguments really come down to that exploitation component.
00:05:29.780And the one thing that I always find to be flawed about that is that if you are concerned about the exploitation or the commoditization of, you know, the human body, taking away an income stream, however small, is never going to be a solution to that problem.
00:05:45.400And here's the thing, and you can see this on Twitter, when people who donate respond, ask them if they feel like they're being exploited.
00:05:56.780And the response is overwhelmingly no.
00:06:00.460They very much state what you just did, which is don't take away this income stream from me.
00:06:09.780And it allowed for me not only to be compensated for it, but to help the patients who desperately rely on plasma.
00:06:17.140And so there's that all – it's not just a cash-for-play type scenario.
00:06:22.760These people feel genuinely good about what they're doing.
00:06:26.600And the thing about blood plasma is it is a much more intrusive process when you compare it to traditionally donating blood.
00:06:35.120And so having some sort of compensation model allows or helps push people over the edge in terms of wanting to actually donate and take the hour, hour and a half to go through the process.
00:06:46.320And so it's – the idea that these people are exploited is not something that they identify in themselves.
00:06:55.720And then we have a situation where people on the sidelines are advocated on behalf of others who don't want to be advocated on behalf of.
00:07:04.100And that's incredibly problematic when we talk from a public policy perspective because you have people like Blood Watch, et cetera, or other public sector unions who are heavily opposed to paid plasma who are advocating on behalf of the exploited but the said exploited don't see themselves that way and actually disagree.
00:07:26.980And so that's where a group like the Consumer Choice Center comes into play where we say, hold on a second, there are actually people who not only benefit from this on the medical side but benefit from this on the donor side.
00:07:41.580Do you think there's ever going to be a discussion or should there ever be discussion on this that's bigger than plasma?
00:07:47.100I mean, when you talk about organ donations and stuff like that, or do you feel like Canada is already too resistant to even this smaller one so there's never going to be a bigger dialogue there?
00:07:57.640What you've identified there is actually a bit of a misconception specifically for blood plasma in terms of Canadian perception.
00:08:04.600The most recent polling on that issue in particular, I think the number was north of 70% of Canadians were okay with people getting compensated for donating plasma.
00:08:15.820I think when it's framed in the context of you own your own body and this is a choice of consenting adults, Canadians are much more apt to hear the argument and be persuaded by it.
00:08:28.360Generally speaking, generally speaking in the Canadian context, we respect bodily autonomy or we say that we do.
00:08:35.820For other things that could be donated and compensated, I definitely think there's a conversation to be had there.
00:08:46.400Whether or not Canadians get to that point, I'm not sure, but there are certainly some brilliant minds who make a great case.
00:08:53.540One person who comes to mind is Peter Jaworski, who looks at it from obviously a philosophical point of view, which is some of what I've described, but there's also a data-driven argument there where you actually provide more for those who need it, whether that be kidney donations or what have you.
00:09:14.920And so generally speaking, I'm a proponent of if you're allowed to do it for free, you should be allowed to be compensated for it.
00:09:24.380Obviously, that doesn't mean you can do things that are illegal for money, but I think generally speaking, if you can do something for free and we've established that it's safe for you to do something for free, then you should be able to be compensated for it from another consenting adult.
00:09:40.500And so I certainly think there's room to have conversation on other subjects outside of plasma.
00:09:47.320And when you talk about that public opinion component, I'm actually grateful that it's being brought into the political realm in Saskatchewan.
00:09:54.460If it's going to happen, I'd rather it be in a way where people can weigh in directly than through these administrative bodies and health agencies and non-profits that really have no transparency making the call.
00:10:06.000And I know there was a discussion nationally a couple of years back when Senator Pamela Wallin pushed something forward, but I would hardly say the Senate is a publicly accountable body for entirely different reasons.
00:10:16.800So if there is going to be some pushback, it's going to be on a case like this.
00:10:20.900So great commentary and perspective on this.