Juno News - January 12, 2023


Canada’s obsession with euthanasia has gone too far

Mentioned
Nicole Scheidel Andrew Lawton Show Ellen Wiebe Bill C-63 Stephanie Green Ellen Weave
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Episode Stats


Length

18 minutes

Words per minute

168.37

Word count

3,052

Sentence count

165

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Toxicity

3

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In March, a law that the government passed just under two years ago will go into effect which will mean that people who have only a mental illness will be eligible for state-facilitated assisted suicide. So the government will kill you if you are dealing with a serious mental illness, as evidenced by the fact that you want someone to kill you.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:00:08.120 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:00:10.900 Just to bring you up to speed, if you haven't been following this in the last few months,
00:00:15.720 in March, a law that the government passed just under two years ago will go into effect,
00:00:21.680 which will mean that people who have only a mental illness will be eligible for state-facilitated assisted suicide. 0.92
00:00:29.480 So the government will kill you if you are dealing with a serious mental illness, 0.99
00:00:34.620 as evidenced by the fact that you want someone to kill you. 0.96
00:00:38.240 This is something that I've talked about as being near and dear to my heart as a survivor of suicide,
00:00:43.980 someone who's been through mental illness.
00:00:46.500 And as this has been discussed, we've seen more and more horror stories of people that have called up
00:00:52.740 the Veterans Affairs Support Hotline because they need some form of assistance
00:00:56.260 and are instead told to consider ending their lives.
00:00:59.980 People that need a mechanical chairlift that want a mechanical chairlift
00:01:03.980 and think maybe the government can give them some assistance in getting it
00:01:07.600 and are instead told perhaps you need medical assistance in dying,
00:01:12.460 to use the government's euphemism, and so on.
00:01:15.720 This is becoming a bit of a problem in Canada, which has a larger rate of these state-facilitated deaths
00:01:24.080 than similar jurisdictions with similar laws,
00:01:27.620 which means perhaps there is a culture of death in Canada that the Liberal government has allowed to take hold
00:01:34.040 and that certainly a large number of Canadian doctors are allowing to take hold,
00:01:39.100 but not all of them.
00:01:40.180 And I'm very glad that there is some pushback here, including, I'd say,
00:01:44.400 a growing movement of people that are not even ideologically against assisted dying,
00:01:49.900 but don't like how the government has opened the floodgates in the way it has.
00:01:54.960 Nicole Scheidel is the Executive Director of Canadian Physicians for Life and joins me now.
00:02:00.900 Nicole, it's good to talk to you.
00:02:02.500 Thanks for coming on today.
00:02:03.960 Thank you for having me, Andrew.
00:02:05.080 So obviously there's been such tremendous attention in the last few weeks,
00:02:10.600 in the last couple of months in particular here,
00:02:12.920 but I know your group and a lot of other physicians have really been sounding the alarm about this for quite some time.
00:02:18.860 So why has it taken so long for there to actually be, in your view, some more public attention to this?
00:02:26.760 Honestly, I think it's the media that has now been paying attention to the stories that are out there and reporting them,
00:02:32.420 and that has come to the attention of the government in a way that was not happening before.
00:02:38.260 They were not really listening to the disabled community.
00:02:42.460 There was lots of groups, disability groups, who were talking very loudly about Bill C-7 as it went through and their concerns.
00:02:49.980 And I think part of it was because of the lockdown over COVID and the virtual parliament.
00:02:55.820 It was very hard to get the attention of the parliamentarians.
00:02:58.900 But now that the House is back in session, people are back in Ottawa,
00:03:04.800 the media is maybe not so focused on COVID and looking at some of the other issues that are happening.
00:03:11.020 And these kinds of stories are now starting to come to the surface.
00:03:15.240 And I think that's what's causing the government to have some pause in what they're doing.
00:03:19.500 I know when assisted dying laws first came in in Canada to allow it,
00:03:25.800 there was this concern that a lot of people raised, myself among them,
00:03:30.020 that there was going to be that slippery slope.
00:03:31.760 And we were told, no, no, it's not going to be like that.
00:03:34.140 It's going to be very rare.
00:03:35.280 It's going to be very tightly controlled.
00:03:37.480 And we're seeing now that the slippery slope was very real.
00:03:40.900 And I think it's actually gone even a lot further than some of the more cynical critics of this had argued.
00:03:46.920 When you have people that are going through this process because their issue is not even medical,
00:03:51.540 but it's related to affordable housing, for example.
00:03:55.220 Yes, no, certainly.
00:03:56.120 And I think it's happened with such a speed in Canada that it's pretty hard to argue that there wasn't a slippery slope.
00:04:05.340 I think one of the other things that we're seeing is just the impact of proposed changes in the law.
00:04:09.940 So we have psychiatrists who are now telling us that they have patients who are refusing treatment
00:04:15.540 because they know that euthanasia will be open to them as suffering from just simply a mental condition as a sole issue for euthanasia.
00:04:26.380 And so now they're refusing treatment because that's what they're aiming towards.
00:04:31.600 Explain to me, if you can, where some of the doctors that are more activist in nature are on this,
00:04:38.360 because it seems like, on one hand, you've got a lot of doctors that are uncomfortable with this,
00:04:44.780 that aren't necessarily pro-life or particularly political on this.
00:04:48.420 But you also have a subset that really seem to believe, from my assessment anyway,
00:04:53.540 that assisted suicide is a right, and who is anyone else to tell you you shouldn't be able to avail yourself of it?
00:04:59.880 Well, and I think there are some physicians who are very enthusiastic about euthanasia-assisted suicide as the best way to die.
00:05:08.980 And so they are seeing that as the solution to many of societal ills,
00:05:14.520 that the best way to relieve suffering is to get rid of the sufferer.
00:05:18.620 Yeah, and there was this piece in the Daily Mail, since you bring that up,
00:05:24.020 one doctor says it's the most rewarding work we've ever done.
00:05:28.220 This is a physician, well, two physicians in the article, Ellen Wiebe and Stephanie Green,
00:05:33.560 of Dying with Dignity Canada, who say they have euthanized more than 700 people between them.
00:05:39.340 So to them, it's almost like this tally, the more people they've been able to do this to,
00:05:44.040 the more people they've been able to help.
00:05:45.940 Well, I think that's certainly how they square it with their conscience, that that is what they're doing.
00:05:52.940 The question is, how careful have they been in really assessing people?
00:05:59.220 You saw in that story, there was a story of one of Ellen Wiebe's patients,
00:06:03.580 who she assessed virtually, had the man fly out to her place of work in BC,
00:06:10.660 and she euthanized him out there.
00:06:12.360 And so I would think it's pretty challenging for a physician to do a proper assessment
00:06:19.080 on something that is as serious as this in a virtual manner.
00:06:24.640 I guess the question that I would ask then is, where is it going from here?
00:06:29.920 Because if we're already, you know, barreling down the slippery slope,
00:06:33.240 as we were talking about earlier, what's the next frontier?
00:06:36.340 Because I think we've seen that it's very easy to get into a point where you're playing catch-up here.
00:06:41.220 And in the case of the mental health exemption, we're looking at that deadline,
00:06:45.100 which unless they do go forward with the changes, is going to be in March.
00:06:49.160 What's the next thing that people need to be worried about or watch out for?
00:06:52.520 Well, I think it's pretty clear that the two other issues that are on the table are advanced directives.
00:06:58.440 So individuals, particularly aimed towards those with dementia, can pre-choose their death date,
00:07:05.240 and then it's pretty hard for them to step away from it.
00:07:08.700 And then also euthanizing infants and children.
00:07:12.240 I think that's the other area that's going to expand.
00:07:14.780 And we've already seen the College of Quebec, for example, the College of Physicians of Quebec,
00:07:20.720 speaking about euthanizing infants.
00:07:24.020 We have seen the sick kids has put out a policy for how they would treat assisted dying with minors
00:07:34.060 and how they would choose that and how they would work through that.
00:07:37.320 So I think that is something that is already being considered within the medical community
00:07:42.920 or within particular parts of the medical community.
00:07:46.500 Now, this goes beyond conscience rights, does it not?
00:07:49.620 I mean, physicians are not being forced to do this, as I understand, correct?
00:07:53.680 So in Ontario, they are being forced to refer.
00:07:58.440 So that's a question of conscience rights there.
00:08:04.800 I think nurses as well are being forced to participate when they don't want to. 1.00
00:08:10.240 I think it's becoming pretty, it's, the problem is, is that because the focus is so much on
00:08:17.260 if a patient says they want it, you must facilitate it, there's no opportunity to go into the why.
00:08:24.060 And most individuals who say, oh, I want to die, what they really want is they want their situation to change.
00:08:30.720 And so if a physician can't speak to them and find out what's at the root of this and see if they can fix it,
00:08:35.980 then there's no opportunity for the system or even the doctors involved or the nurses to have a conversation
00:08:42.440 with the patient in a way that tries to resolve their issues rather than just putting them on the euthanasia train
00:08:49.760 and reaching out to the MAID team and having euthanasia provided pretty quickly. 0.95
00:08:55.080 I know when medicinal marijuana was becoming a bit more of a thing and we didn't have legalized cannabis in Canada,
00:09:02.620 there was this little whisper campaign that was sort of going on where people that wanted a prescription knew where to go.
00:09:09.520 And there were certain doctors that were a little bit more liberal with writing these prescriptions than others
00:09:14.400 and in many cases more liberal than the legislation.
00:09:17.480 And the sense that I've gotten anecdotally is that the same thing has been true in assisted dying,
00:09:23.120 is that you have the regulations and the standards that are supposed to be there,
00:09:27.240 but there are certain places that people go that might be a bit more lax with it.
00:09:31.520 And even between provinces, I mean, I've understood and I've known personally people that have been eligible in British Columbia
00:09:38.160 that never would have been eligible in another province.
00:09:41.380 Yeah, no, it's certainly, I mean, even though it is a federal system or a framework,
00:09:48.000 there are different or varying interpretations of it in different areas of the country,
00:09:53.240 but certainly it comes down to what one doctor believes is acceptable.
00:10:00.120 And you'll even see in the reports of Ellen Weave, and she has said, like,
00:10:06.940 if I believe that it's right, then I will do it.
00:10:10.020 And so I think what you're seeing is doctor shopping happening.
00:10:14.860 And even in the training that they do in CAM app, so the Canadian Association of Maid Professionals,
00:10:24.480 that they have talked about, if you get a no, you can keep looking.
00:10:28.500 So there's no kind of suggestion that if doctors say that you are not eligible,
00:10:35.520 that that is the end of the story.
00:10:37.060 You can keep doctor shopping, you can keep looking for a doctor who's going to agree with your assessment.
00:10:43.800 We wouldn't accept that in medicine with someone that wanted a prescription for opioids, would we?
00:10:49.900 No.
00:10:50.940 I mean, I think that's pretty clear.
00:10:52.580 Even with other procedures, if a doctor determines that you're not eligible or it's not appropriate treatment,
00:11:01.380 generally, that's where it stops.
00:11:03.560 I mean, you can ask for a second opinion in some cases, but you don't get third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth opinions.
00:11:10.960 It's baffling to me that so many people have been basically cowed into silence on some of these things.
00:11:19.360 And again, we talked about this at the beginning.
00:11:21.580 There's a little bit of a turning point here in that more people are paying attention to this now than were before.
00:11:27.660 Let me ask about the middle ground, if you will, because obviously your group represents doctors who are tremendously passionate about life issues,
00:11:36.680 and I'm so grateful we have them.
00:11:39.220 And I think, though, there are other doctors that would probably not identify as pro-life.
00:11:43.720 They wouldn't identify as conservative, but they are very uncomfortable with where this is going.
00:11:48.860 And I'm curious how large or small a group that is, in your view.
00:11:53.120 I would think that it's the majority of doctors who are concerned that it's gone too far.
00:12:00.860 I think also, honestly, many physicians were not paying attention to this.
00:12:05.460 Many Canadians were not paying attention to this.
00:12:08.000 Bill C-7 kind of slipped under the radar during COVID,
00:12:10.880 and all of a sudden doctors are finding that their patients can request euthanasia even if they have something, a treatable symptom.
00:12:21.660 I mean, you saw that whole story that blew up around the young man who had diabetes
00:12:26.720 and was then, he was able to get an assisted death date,
00:12:33.880 and his mother found out and took it to the media and made a big to-do about it.
00:12:40.880 And then the doctor pulled out, right?
00:12:43.140 And since then, if you listen to other stories and followed him,
00:12:46.820 since then he went on a date, got a girlfriend, his life changed.
00:12:51.440 He didn't want to die anymore.
00:12:53.420 And so you really start to question whether people who are in these situations,
00:12:57.780 what we really need to do is change their circumstances,
00:13:00.580 and then assisted death is not on the table for them.
00:13:04.720 So just as a matter of logistics here, I know that we have this deadline that's supposed to kick in in March.
00:13:12.400 The government has talked about postponing it.
00:13:14.760 Where are things now?
00:13:16.580 Well, so March 17th is the sunset clause.
00:13:19.480 So the law already exists.
00:13:20.940 It just means it will go into effect March 17th.
00:13:23.720 They would have to bring forward legislation.
00:13:26.600 The House does not sit now until the end of January.
00:13:29.100 So I'd be surprised if they could bring forward legislation fast enough
00:13:35.040 and move it through the process before the sunset clause happens.
00:13:40.340 I'm happy to be surprised.
00:13:42.660 But, you know, they have to, I think it would have to move through the House and the Senate
00:13:47.040 with unanimous consent.
00:13:49.080 And that aspect of the law was put into place by the Senate.
00:13:54.200 They wanted to allow euthanasia for individuals whose sole condition was mental illness.
00:14:01.760 So I'd be surprised if there was any change to the law.
00:14:06.700 Yeah.
00:14:07.340 And again, the whole basis of this was just trust us to figure it out,
00:14:11.900 which I didn't particularly trust them two years ago when they made that comment.
00:14:16.720 And I really don't now that we're heading towards it.
00:14:20.040 And I think that the challenge here is that there are so many situations where,
00:14:24.960 and this is what comes up whenever abortion is raised as an issue, for example,
00:14:28.940 as most people listening to this show will probably know,
00:14:31.720 and many Canadians don't likely know,
00:14:33.680 is that Canada has no law on abortion.
00:14:35.820 And abortion is legal in Canada up until seconds before delivery.
00:14:40.320 And whenever this issue is raised, people say,
00:14:42.700 well, you know, we just trust doctors to make the right call.
00:14:45.620 We trust doctors to not be irresponsible with this.
00:14:48.680 But the problem is that, as we've talked about,
00:14:51.120 there's a wild variation in what doctors in this country view as being acceptable.
00:14:56.920 Certainly.
00:14:57.700 And there's also, I would say, particularly with euthanasia, there's no oversight.
00:15:03.140 So there's no group or body that goes through and makes sure things were done properly.
00:15:09.060 And so it's very problematic because the euthanasia providers are saying,
00:15:13.480 well, there's never been any, nothing has ever gone wrong, right?
00:15:18.460 There's been no reported cases of anything that's ever gone amiss.
00:15:23.420 And that's just not true, first of all.
00:15:26.180 And secondly, you don't have the reporting mechanisms to ensure that that's the case.
00:15:32.940 And so I think it's naive to suggest that the body that's providing euthanasia
00:15:40.280 should be the one that's doing the oversight and the reporting on it.
00:15:43.960 But that's how it's been set up in Canada.
00:15:46.300 And the government is certainly funding the group that does euthanasia.
00:15:51.240 They just gave them another $3 million plus.
00:15:54.920 So I think it's a concern when the government's putting a lot of resources
00:15:58.980 into providing assisted suicide, but not a similar amount of resources into palliative care
00:16:05.560 or into social supports or into other things that help people live well.
00:16:12.060 Yeah.
00:16:13.060 This is an important topic.
00:16:15.300 We'll continue to follow it.
00:16:16.900 Nicole Scheidel is the Executive Director of Canadian Physicians for Life.
00:16:21.340 Just on a, well, I don't want to say an unrelated note,
00:16:24.620 but on a slightly sidestepping note here, this is not a religious issue.
00:16:30.480 And I know when a lot of people hear life and pro-life,
00:16:33.020 they associate it with religious arguments.
00:16:34.620 And certainly there are a lot of religious people in the pro-life movement,
00:16:38.320 but Canadian Physicians for Life is secular.
00:16:40.720 And there are a lot of people that have a very scientific approach to these problems.
00:16:45.060 Do they not?
00:16:46.000 Yeah, that's absolutely correct.
00:16:47.180 So our members are focused on practicing medicine in the Hippocratic tradition.
00:16:55.180 So doing no harm.
00:16:56.800 And I would say one of the most compelling arguments that I've heard against euthanasia
00:17:01.920 was given by one of the doctors at our conference.
00:17:04.520 And he said, if you can show me how euthanasia helps my patients,
00:17:08.080 I'd be happy to provide it.
00:17:11.020 But because it doesn't make their lives better, it doesn't heal them.
00:17:14.560 It doesn't, it's not part of the healing profession.
00:17:19.280 I'm really not prepared to do it at this point.
00:17:23.140 Yeah, very important.
00:17:24.420 And I appreciate you sharing that.
00:17:26.100 Nicole, thank you so much for your work on this.
00:17:27.740 We'll have to touch base in the future.
00:17:29.620 But like I said, I would love to find some optimism in this,
00:17:32.900 but it's hard to in the current circumstances.
00:17:35.580 Well, I think that sometimes when it becomes so bad,
00:17:39.480 it wakes people up and then they have to say, like, we need to change.
00:17:43.220 And if you compare us to California, which is similar in size,
00:17:47.080 we've had 10,000 deaths.
00:17:49.300 They've had like 400.
00:17:51.000 And so you have to ask, what's the difference?
00:17:53.180 What's what's going on here?
00:17:55.400 Terrible stuff.
00:17:56.460 Nicole, thank you very much.
00:17:57.540 Happy New Year to you.
00:17:58.620 You too.
00:17:59.080 Bye.
00:17:59.780 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:18:02.100 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.