Juno News - Canadian conservatives descend on Ottawa ｜ CSFN Day 1

00:00:00.000 show brought to you by true north hello and welcome to you all this is another live edition

00:00:10.060 of canada's most irreverent talk show the andrew lawton show here on true north just after one o'clock

00:00:14.700 eastern from my favorite city in k what sorry no i'm in ottawa never mind uh not not usually my

00:00:20.800 favorite city it's a city i have a weird uh love hate more hate hate relationship with but you have

00:00:25.960 important people here and important events, and we are at one of the most important, certainly on

00:00:30.780 the Conservative calendar in this country, the Canada Strong and Free Network's annual conference

00:00:35.820 taking place at the Westin Ottawa for the next few days. It's a place where I think close to

00:00:41.060 a thousand Canadian Conservatives are set to descend. We have some foreign speakers like

00:00:45.780 former Australian and British Prime Ministers Tony Abbott and Boris Johnson. We also have the

00:00:50.980 Conservative leader Pierre Polyev. I think there's one guest that hasn't yet been announced that I

00:00:55.180 is sure to make some waves as well so all of this is to say it's going to be a great week we're going

00:00:59.980 to be doing the show live every day at the usual time and also doing some other interviews with

00:01:04.380 some of the phenomenal figures who are walking the halls we have some lined up and in some cases

00:01:08.780 we're literally just going to lasso them as they walk by because we're broadcasting from the exhibit

00:01:13.980 hall here quite a nice upgrade from the uh you know crappy hotel room set i had going on yesterday

00:01:18.860 we decided to pull out all the stops here and what better way to kick things off than to speak with

00:01:24.220 with Adam Bullock, who's the president of the Canada Strong and Free Network.

00:01:28.020 Adam, good to talk to you.

00:01:29.120 Thanks for having us here, and thanks for coming on the show.

00:01:31.120 Thanks for having me. Good to be here.

00:01:32.340 So this is your first of these conferences as president.

00:01:36.120 It's a bit of a baptism by fire for you,

00:01:38.320 but tell me about the theme, Leading with Conviction.

00:01:40.880 Where does that come from, and what does it really mean?

00:01:43.780 Look, there's no doubt that there's a lot of momentum

00:01:45.580 in the conservative movement right now.

00:01:46.880 You see it at Pierre's rallies.

00:01:48.340 You see it out west in Alberta with Premier Smith.

00:01:50.380 You see it in New Brunswick with Premier Higgs.

00:01:52.200 you see it with all of our friends here that are setting up booths and getting ready for the

00:01:56.500 discussions and the conference we're about to have I think the biggest thing I want folks to

00:02:01.880 think about with this conference is we are positioned for a big win across the country

00:02:07.680 I think how do we take advantage of it how do we actually get things done I think you know the next

00:02:12.860 couple years look less like 2006 or less like 1984 in this country and more like 1995 as it was in

00:02:20.140 Ontario where there was a huge mandate to get some things changed and a lot of

00:02:24.880 buy-in I think from the people of Canada to go in a very different and honestly a

00:02:28.640 more conservative direction and so that's what I want people to think about I

00:02:31.360 want them to think about what are the conservative things we want to

00:02:34.640 accomplish as a country not just with government across civil society in the

00:02:39.100 courts in the boardrooms and church groups what are the things we want to

00:02:42.260 accomplish and how do we really harvest or harness this momentum there's always

00:02:46.520 been a bit of a challenge when you talk about politics in Canada and that you

00:02:49.540 have the ideologies underlying the political parties that have the same word as the parties

00:02:54.440 themselves. And, you know, you have this big C, small C conservative divide, this big L, small L

00:02:58.780 liberal. And I'm curious how you approach that issue, because obviously there are a lot of

00:03:02.580 partisan conservatives here. You've got provincial premiers like Danielle Smith and Blaine Higgs,

00:03:06.860 who I'll be speaking to on stage in the next couple of days. You've got conservative leader

00:03:11.000 Pierre Polyev speaking, but it's not a capital C partisan conservative event. So where do you

00:03:15.560 think the movement aspect fits into what you're doing here I think there's a

00:03:19.340 number of core principles we all share across the conservative movement that

00:03:23.420 people I don't say pick and choose from but they may lean into certain things

00:03:26.360 than others right so if you're more economically minded or you're more

00:03:29.880 libertarian you may have more affinity for a taxpayers group or from some of

00:03:33.080 the things that are for our friends at the MLI are doing you may be a foreign 1.00

00:03:36.500 affairs hawk and you may be more interested in what Prime Minister's

00:03:40.460 Abbott or Prime Minister Cameron or excuse me Prime Minister Johnson will

00:03:44.240 have to say or some of our other guests that are talking a lot about foreign

00:03:48.140 policy particularly on Friday so I think there's something for everyone here at

00:03:51.800 this conference and I want everybody to lean into the things that they believe

00:03:55.100 in and that they find conviction in right and so it's a big movement it's a

00:03:59.360 broad movement we're covering all kinds of issues but I think the things that

00:04:03.080 unite us certainly is that need for change and everybody sees something that

00:04:07.940 they want to see done in this country that are united around those core

00:04:10.940 principles and as i said it's personal liberty uh it's freedom it's certainly limited in smaller

00:04:16.300 government and i think it's moral clarity in our foreign affairs now more than ever there's been

00:04:20.420 over the last few years in particular i think a profound shift in canadian politics but especially

00:04:24.580 in the conservative movement and you look at some of the key changes here like the you know the

00:04:28.700 ousting of jason kenny in alberta and then danielle smith coming in uh the ousting of erin o'toole

00:04:33.280 and at the canadian level and pierr polyev coming and i'm wondering you know obviously again i go

00:04:38.560 back to this is your first kick at this particular can in this role but how does that weigh into the

00:04:43.600 discussions that you have the fact that there has been a major I don't want to say a turnover but

00:04:47.520 certainly an expansion of the conservative movement to people that are not traditional

00:04:52.360 lifelong partisans let alone conservative partisans I think there are these moments that

00:04:57.520 happen every 10 or 15 years maybe it's once in a generation I'm not sure but there are these

00:05:02.100 moments that there is a sea change and there is a shift and I think you saw it in the 1990s

00:05:07.320 uh across the country whether even in places like the united states or in or in great britain or

00:05:12.200 our cousins in australia and so i think those changes in sentiment and in feeling and particularly

00:05:18.040 for conservatives those are driven hard times really or a loss or lack of up

00:05:29.880 world or in an activist role or in partisans um that's what really activates and brings them in

00:05:34.280 and there's generational change right i think about rallies that i went to andrew 20 years ago

00:05:40.360 or events like this 20 years ago it was very different than now i was usually the youngest

00:05:44.920 person in the room i'm 38 years old i'm going to be one of the oldest people at this conference

00:05:48.440 now i'm an old man now and i'm struggling with that it sneaks up on you fast that tell me about

00:05:53.160 it tell me about it but i think you can see and you see it at all the rallies you see on tv and

00:05:57.640 you see it in the states and you see it everywhere else so i think it's just part of a natural cycle

00:06:02.040 and part of that generational change what is the the aspect that you would love people like tony

00:06:06.840 abbott and boris johnson to bring to the table i mean both very very different political leaders

00:06:11.000 in their respective countries and and oftentimes in the past i mean the big foreign speakers at

00:06:15.320 this conference have typically been american because i think there's a lot of influence if

00:06:18.680 you're a canadian conservative from from the american realm so what is it you'd love for

00:06:22.120 these guys to bring to the table i think for prime minister abbott in particular if you look at his

00:06:27.560 campaign for prime minister a decade ago he was not the most popular leader

00:06:31.400 coming into it but he was seen as a very conservative and a movement-based figure

00:06:35.300 very pro-life very limited government and he had this mantra when he was

00:06:39.680 getting elected and it was this stop the boats because they had a huge immigration

00:06:43.940 issue at the time it was axe the tax that might sound familiar and these were

00:06:49.880 two positions that were not popular or not seen to be popular widely with the

00:06:53.000 electorate but that is how he came to be in power and that's how he won his

00:06:56.360 election and so I think talking about the ability to push back against the

00:07:01.220 narrative that was out there in Australia at the time to have

00:07:04.480 conviction in his beliefs that what he was seeing and how he was responding to

00:07:07.700 it in a conservative way was the right thing to do and he had to lead and

00:07:11.380 convince Australians to vote for him and I think for Prime Minister Johnson

00:07:15.180 it's the same no question his work on Brexit is why and his championing of

00:07:20.120 that cause is why it got done and he saw to it when he eventually then became

00:07:23.860 leader and Prime Minister and delivered Brexit and I think for him as well

00:07:27.520 conviction in his beliefs on things like Israel and Ukraine is another one where

00:07:31.720 we're seeing the movement has very different views about what to do about

00:07:34.240 Ukraine as you know and I think mr. Johnson has been anything if not

00:07:39.440 consistent in his view that the West should support Ukraine in any way it can

00:07:42.740 that there is evil in the world we must confront it and it's never nice and it's

00:07:46.180 always ugly but it's the right thing to do and it harkens back I think to a

00:07:50.260 heritage in the conservative movement going back to the Reagan era and Margaret

00:07:53.820 Thatcher and Brian Mulroney and having that moral clarity in foreign policy. So Ukraine brings up a

00:07:59.340 useful launching point for something I wanted to ask you in general, which was about how you deal

00:08:03.240 with these schisms. I mean, we've seen internal conflict in the conservative movement on things

00:08:09.080 that like foreign policy. And I think you see that especially now about, you know, interventionist

00:08:13.520 versus realist views on foreign policy, things like supply management. I mean, anyone who was

00:08:17.200 around in the 2017 conservative leadership would have thought, again, it's an important issue,

00:08:21.640 You would have thought that was probably the most pressing issue because of how much oxygen it was taking.

00:08:25.400 Certainly in COVID, we saw a fair split in parts of the right on how to handle that.

00:08:29.720 So how do you grapple, if at all, with those issues at a forum like this,

00:08:33.220 where on one hand you don't want this to be about infighting,

00:08:35.840 but you also don't want to shy away from these things,

00:08:38.280 which are very real and very relevant questions for the right to take up?

00:08:42.400 I think the conference is exactly how you do it.

00:08:44.320 I think having these debates and having these discussions and hearing from experts in the movement are how you do it.

00:08:50.020 And I think a lot of it is because I think folks have spent some time looking at these issues or reading into them but it's different when you actually get together in a room with a thousand conservatives and hash it out and hear from world leaders and hear from experts about the issues at hand and maybe it'll change some minds maybe it'll harden some stances I don't know but if there's any form to do it it's here at CSFN in Ottawa and the other conferences and events that we do.

00:09:12.220 I think it's a healthy tension.

00:09:13.760 I think, look, we're a very democratic movement, very grassroots-oriented,

00:09:19.560 and we want to hear those voices and we want to have those debates.

00:09:22.280 And the movement will find consensus.

00:09:23.640 It always does.

00:09:24.400 But it doesn't happen overnight.

00:09:25.540 It takes time.

00:09:26.700 And maybe there'll be a consensus on Ukraine one way or the other,

00:09:29.400 or on carbon taxes, or on any issue you want to pick in the next five years.

00:09:33.260 But it takes time.

00:09:34.700 Your predecessor in your role as president, Jamil Javani,

00:09:37.800 was just sworn in two days ago as a member of parliament.

00:09:40.360 So I don't know if that's prescient for your ambitions, but I will ask you what stamp you're bringing to the organization.

00:09:46.500 What is the shade of Adam Bullock that we see in the program this year?

00:09:51.040 A lot of people have been calling me Bay Street Bullock because of my background in lobbying and corporate affairs.

00:09:56.520 Oh, you're one of those.

00:09:57.380 And I know that that has caused some angst in the movement and some folks have said some things.

00:10:04.060 But when I came into this gig, I said I really wanted a conference that I would want to go to.

00:10:08.820 and I wanted to keep it as interesting and as exciting

00:10:12.160 and I wanted to have a lot of momentum and a lot of fun

00:10:15.320 and that's the approach I took with the program.

00:10:18.540 I wanted it to be bold, I wanted it to be broad and different

00:10:20.720 and I wanted to elevate it too.

00:10:23.920 I see all kinds of, because of this gig I have,

00:10:25.880 I see all kinds of conferences that the Americans do,

00:10:27.800 our friends in the UK and I want ours to be as successful

00:10:30.840 and I want frankly our cousins from around the world

00:10:32.900 and the Conservative Movement to come to Ottawa next year

00:10:35.100 and to be part of this as we go to theirs.

00:10:37.600 All right.

00:10:38.120 Well, we look forward to it.

00:10:39.160 Adam Bullock, the president of the Canada Strong and Free Network.

00:10:41.920 And you've allowed me on the stage a couple of times.

00:10:44.040 So I don't know if your Bay Street friends might disavow you now.

00:10:46.800 We're going to have you twice this year.

00:10:47.980 It's going to be awesome.

00:10:48.560 Yes, I know.

00:10:48.900 I get to be moderating the discussion with Premier Blaine Higgs from New Brunswick

00:10:53.860 and also with Premier Daniel Smith from Alberta.

00:10:56.160 No one better to do it.

00:10:57.000 The next two days.

00:10:57.780 So I look forward to that, Adam.

00:10:58.800 Thank you so much for coming on.

00:11:00.080 Thanks for having me, Andrew.

00:11:00.720 This is great.

00:11:01.200 All right.

00:11:01.580 Thank you so much.

00:11:02.480 And we are going to shift gears and have a discussion in just a few moments with someone who has been at the forefront of a lot of these very debates and discussions that have taken place in Canadian politics.

00:11:13.280 We've had him on the show on a number of occasions.

00:11:15.600 Aaron Woodrick heads the domestic policy program with the Macdonald-Laurier Institute.

00:11:20.360 And one of the big, bold questions that I think a lot of people have always wanted to find a conservative position on that is saleable, that is relevant, has been that of immigration.

00:11:30.200 And we had a great chat with Aaron about this on the show a couple of weeks back.

00:11:33.540 I think Candace Malcolm did as well on her show. 1.00

00:11:36.520 But there's one of many issues in the domestic policy realm.

00:11:39.820 Aaron, good to have you on in person.

00:11:41.160 Thanks for being with us today.

00:11:42.520 Pleasure to be here.

00:11:43.440 So just from you as a domestic policy guy, also someone who's been broadly involved in the right of centre world in Canada for quite some time,

00:11:52.320 what do you want to see a forum like this used for?

00:11:55.420 What are the issues you think need to be front and centre?

00:11:57.700 Well, I mean, like, first and foremost, now, I'm with a policy.

00:12:00.000 I'm very much concerned about policy.

00:12:01.300 The horse race stuff, the slogans, the campaign, that's all.

00:12:08.760 You know, what comes next?

00:12:10.160 So, you know, out of your.

00:12:12.040 Self's government.

00:12:14.440 Or sorry, you know, don't count your chicken.

00:12:16.540 But, you know, I think winning in.

00:12:19.660 When the when the wins that you're back, that's the easy part, the hard part.

00:12:22.480 And right now, you know, Mr.

00:12:24.160 Pauly of the wins at his back.

00:12:25.400 I think he's identified all the issues that Canadians are concerned about.

00:12:30.740 The question is getting into the details of those solutions.

00:12:34.080 So whether it's things like housing, whether immigration, what is a climate policy tax?

00:12:39.380 These are questions.

00:12:40.200 CBC, it's easy to say, cut a billion dollars out.

00:12:43.960 What does that look like?

00:12:44.900 The questions as a think tank, we put our minds to and, you know, we put ideas out there for any that this current government's that interesting.

00:12:52.300 some of those solutions,

00:12:54.900 but we're hoping that maybe a future government will be.

00:12:59.920 For good reason, people have viewed them

00:13:02.040 as really mutually exclusive.

00:13:05.200 I've talked on the show in the past.

00:13:06.680 I have a book coming out about Pierre-Paul Yavid.

00:13:08.120 And one of the things that I think has made him

00:13:09.980 such an interesting political figure

00:13:11.360 is that he seems to have a grasp of both.

00:13:13.120 He understands the snappy slogans,

00:13:15.100 but he also understands the policy underlying it.

00:13:18.360 For you as a policy person,

00:13:20.080 you must understand that communicating things that are dealt with in white papers and really

00:13:25.920 technical materials is very difficult to people, but it also matters. It's not the slogan that's

00:13:30.820 going to cause their taxes to go up or down. It's the policy itself. So how do you bridge that

00:13:35.300 divide? How do you actually make policy saleable and relevant to people that have a hard enough

00:13:40.680 time just dealing with like their life, let alone, you know, reading the 300 page white paper on

00:13:46.720 immigration sure i mean if it was easy everyone would do it right and uh the reality that something

00:13:52.400 that we try and the role we play as a think tank is we try and bridge that gap between sort of

00:13:56.240 expertise sometimes it's seen as ivory tower and academic and then uh you know on the other end

00:14:01.200 where you have empty slogans and there's no meat behind them i think there's a way to bridge that

00:14:05.200 gap i think a lot of that comes down to your communication skill it comes down to identifying

00:14:09.680 really simple principles that people just sort of intuitively understand you'll know this being in

00:14:14.000 media as well. Sometimes it's about the story. It's about the narrative. That doesn't mean you

00:14:16.840 can't have some sort of substance or policy behind it, but you have to find a way to communicate it

00:14:21.320 to people that resonates, that they can grasp almost intuitively without having to read a 50

00:14:27.080 page paper to understand. Yeah, I think it was Second Street, maybe a year ago or two years ago,

00:14:31.740 they launched this victims of communism or victims of socialism series where they just had these

00:14:35.740 human faces of people that have lived through regimes that are quite, you know, brutal to their

00:14:40.540 people. And it was a very compelling way of telling the story. I think you have to have both,

00:14:44.940 really. You have to have the story the way that's going to get people's attention, but you also have

00:14:48.760 to have that data underlying it. And to bring it back to the immigration discussion, this is an

00:14:53.480 issue where pretty much everyone in this country has met an immigrant. They've probably met many

00:14:57.960 of them. Maybe themselves are immigrants. And you can talk about all the data you want. You can talk

00:15:02.720 about housing. You can talk about figures like the deal with integration, social service

00:15:08.280 availability all of that but it's such a polarized issue because you're talking about people you're

00:15:13.060 talking about people of different backgrounds so how do you have that to follow up on the

00:15:17.780 discussion you and i had a few weeks back how do you have that grown-up discussion on immigration

00:15:21.520 when no one actually seems to be or i shouldn't say no one few people seem able to separate

00:15:27.800 from the emotion the things about this issue that make it so important yeah i think one of the

00:15:33.360 things we always need to remember is we don't want to commit what's called the aggregation

00:15:36.900 fallacy when we're talking about individuals we talk about individual migrants immigrants people

00:15:40.740 we meet these are human beings most people don't bear ill will to you know random people they've

00:15:45.460 never met before and then in the aggregate we're talking about um a number i mean we're talking

00:15:50.260 about essentially if you look at it in a purely economic terms we're talking about supply spikes

00:15:54.900 for housing we're talking about crunches on things like infrastructure and doctors so when we have a

00:15:59.380 debate about how many what should our immigration level be we're really talking about that aggregate

00:16:04.660 right that's not an attack on individuals that's not saying you know this or that immigrant that

00:16:08.900 person is a bad person and uh we have a hard time getting away from that for a long time anyone who

00:16:13.780 sort of raised any issue about are we maybe taking more than we can handle right now was framed as

00:16:18.740 attacking or even racist i think i think that's changing now i think even this government has

00:16:24.100 realized that we have um the numbers are unprecedented and true north has done a good job

00:16:28.740 you know sort of highlighting some of these numbers so i think we're moving in the direction

00:16:32.260 of that mature conversation.

00:16:34.040 Little ways to go to get there,

00:16:35.280 but the signs are encouraging.

00:16:36.960 Well, since you mentioned the Liberal government,

00:16:38.560 I wanted to ask about that

00:16:39.580 because that admission from Justin Trudeau

00:16:42.160 last week or two weeks ago, whenever it was,

00:16:44.180 that we have absorbed something far beyond,

00:16:47.340 that's what he said,

00:16:47.940 absorbed far beyond what Canada can handle

00:16:49.820 or Canada can manage.

00:16:51.040 That's something that I think that man himself

00:16:53.220 would have said was racist

00:16:54.260 if it was uttered a year ago

00:16:56.020 by Conservative leader Pierre Pollyev

00:16:57.840 or by anyone else, by me.

00:16:59.920 And when he's coming out and saying it,

00:17:02.260 Do you think it's an example of the, is he behind where a consensus has already shifted in Canada on this issue?

00:17:09.660 I think so. I mean, look, you can call it cynical and opportunistic to flip-flop. That's true.

00:17:14.960 But I'd also rather say, you know, they've realized that that's where most Canadians are, is that they're not, they don't,

00:17:20.640 I think most Canadians generally are probably more open than just about any other people on the planet in terms of immigration.

00:17:26.260 That doesn't mean there's no limit.

00:17:27.520 That doesn't mean they have an unlimited tolerance for things like crazy housing prices and not being able to find a doctor and things like that.

00:17:33.840 So I, you know, I welcome that shift.

00:17:36.880 I do find it a little bit interesting, like this and other issues.

00:17:41.220 Now the Liberal government seems to not want to say who was responsible for putting us in this situation.

00:17:46.220 Yeah, and I don't know how it happened.

00:17:47.960 They just showed up one day.

00:17:49.480 And I've said this and others said this elsewhere, is that, boy, if you look at their track record, this certainly seems like a record they'd be happy to campaign against if they were in opposition.

00:17:57.520 Yeah, that's a very good point on this. And it puts the Conservatives, and this is where you probably get annoyed, because now all of a sudden we pull it out of the policy realm. But the Conservatives have, I think, been, I've used the word timid in the past on this, because I think the Conservatives are seeing that a lot of immigrants in this country are very fed up with Justin Trudeau and the Liberals.

00:18:14.120 a lot of immigrant communities.

00:18:15.860 Jason Kenney did tremendous work to reach out to them.

00:18:18.340 Pierre Polyev has as well.

00:18:21.080 And in a weird way, it seems like the Liberals

00:18:22.880 have almost outflanked the Conservatives on the issue.

00:18:26.080 And I'm curious what you're thinking on that is,

00:18:27.820 because I would love to see everyone just say,

00:18:30.200 all right, this is not political.

00:18:31.300 This is the good of the country.

00:18:32.200 This is our economic welfare.

00:18:33.420 This is the cohesion of Canadian society.

00:18:35.980 But that's not how politics tends to work.

00:18:38.800 Yeah, look, I think that the Liberal governments shift on this.

00:18:42.320 I mean, I think they can largely justify on grounds of housing.

00:18:44.780 And I know that, for example, Mr. Pauly, one of the things he did say was that we need to tie the rate of immigration to the rate of housing starts.

00:18:50.740 I think that's a kind of, I believe even Sean Fraser said that that seemed like a reasonable proposition.

00:18:54.980 Yeah.

00:18:55.220 You know, so I think that's a good thing.

00:18:57.900 You know, I think for conservatives, especially, you know, historically, some of the challenges they've had, you know, being seen as perhaps less welcoming to immigrants than the Liberal Party.

00:19:09.180 There's probably more trepidation there.

00:19:11.000 That's understandable.

00:19:12.300 I frankly think Mr. Poliath has been commendable in not blaming immigrants for the problem.

00:19:19.280 He's pointed out that in many cases, they are as much victims as Canadians are.

00:19:24.380 He's not saying it's not their fault.

00:19:26.020 They get here and they were sold a bill of goods.

00:19:27.820 So I honestly think that's a healthy thing.

00:19:30.500 And I think we also need to be mindful that in spite of the fact,

00:19:33.580 I believe that most Canadians who have concerns about immigration are in good faith

00:19:37.480 and they're not people who are discriminatory or prejudiced.

00:19:40.260 There are bad faith actors out there and we don't want to give those people a platform to basically argue against all immigration in any case, anywhere whatsoever, which I think is, you know, I don't think there's that many of those people, but we do have to be mindful of that.

00:19:54.480 No, and I think that's the incredibly important point here, is that when people like you and I have this discussion, and pretty much everyone I meet in respectable society, which I guess one day I might be a member of, you know, common sense immigration is the goal.

00:20:07.840 So even when you say fewer immigrants, you're not saying no immigration, you're not saying end immigration, and you're not saying less immigration for the sake of there being less immigration.

00:20:15.920 And I think that's the crucial point, is that oftentimes when someone says, you know, what Pierre Polyev said on my show in December, which is, you know, we need to tie immigration to housing, doctors and jobs.

00:20:27.640 You know, yes, I think a lot of people could read between the lines and say he's probably talking about a lower number, at least for the time being.

00:20:33.240 But it's not lower because he wants fewer immigrants. It's lower because he wants the immigration system to work.

00:20:38.460 And I mean, people can agree or disagree with the position, but I think that's the crucial difference here.

00:20:42.380 Yeah, I think that there's sort of a spectrum of opinion on immigration, and that window shifts based on things like housing prices, on jobs, on incomes, opportunity, doctors, infrastructure.

00:20:53.440 So if those things are taken care of, I think you have a wider acceptance and tolerance and appetite for immigration.

00:20:59.740 When those things are all problems, immigration then kind of gets reduced to essentially just creating problems on the demand side, because that is the one variable that governments can control.

00:21:08.360 If you have a problem with demand, you can kind of turn off the tabs.

00:21:11.460 You can tighten the screws on it, so to speak.

00:21:13.920 So, you know, I don't—look, there are other challenges with immigration, you know, issues of integration and identity.

00:21:20.380 These are the thorniest parts that I think a lot of people are still uncomfortable getting into.

00:21:23.820 But I think, by and large, most of it is still economically driven.

00:21:27.120 And if that's addressed, I think you kind of take a lot of air out of that balloon.

00:21:30.420 So from a policy perspective, how do you deal with the value question?

00:21:33.400 Because I think there's still a lot of trauma, to use that term, in the right from the 2015 election, which was an election in which the Canadian values question was put forward.

00:21:41.680 I think there was a fair bit of disingenuousness in how that policy was criticized by people.

00:21:46.160 But I think it was also, you need to have the conversation in society and in culture before politicians can pick it up.

00:21:53.560 And I don't think we've had that in the last decade.

00:21:55.500 No, and I mean, if I can be frank, I think one of the real, the things that has opened a lot of folks' eyes is what's happened since October 7th.

00:22:01.460 Some of these protests we've seen, you know, that, for lack of a better word, there's anti-Semitism.

00:22:07.400 There's been lots of attacks on Jews in Canada and Jewish Canadians.

00:22:11.460 It's anti-Semitism full stop.

00:22:13.600 And, you know, this was not the case 20 or 30 years ago.

00:22:17.420 And so a lot of people, this is an example when we talk about, you know, cultural friction.

00:22:22.680 And, like, I also think it's wrong to say, well, the problem is immigration from Muslim countries.

00:22:27.640 I'm saying, well, the vast majority of folks from these countries are not the ones at these rallies.

00:22:33.300 And yet there is still a problem here.

00:22:34.680 So how do we square it in a circle?

00:22:35.640 How do we treat this issue seriously without understating or overstating the case?

00:22:41.360 This is something serious that we have to grapple with, regardless of which government's in power.

00:22:45.260 Yeah, and there was a poll that the UK Telegraph had put out of British Muslims.

00:22:50.360 And it found that one in four British Muslims polled believed that Hamas had committed murder and rape on October 7th.

00:22:56.000 Now, I don't know in a Canadian context what those numbers would be, but if you were to see something similar or even just to use the UK example, that's a big problem.

00:23:03.920 If you can't even have a core group of that population agreeing that what happened even happened, let alone what was wrong.

00:23:10.920 And the fractures are not going away.

00:23:13.220 We're seeing now for the continuation this last six months and further, we're seeing pretty much on a weekly basis these sorts of protests.

00:23:20.240 And there are these little peaks, but, you know, it's Jewish neighborhoods that are being targeted, Jewish businesses.

00:23:24.820 And are you optimistic that that can be translated into this adult conversation on Canadian values?

00:23:32.780 Or if anything, do people just retreat?

00:23:35.160 Yeah, it's extremely explosive.

00:23:38.040 And one of the challenges that in a liberal democracy, how do you screen for the sorts of things that we're talking about, right?

00:23:43.800 Like we all can all remember Kelly Leach's Canadian values test, right?

00:23:47.740 And, you know, widely mocked at the time, but yet when you drill down to it, the idea of having some kind of test where you can filter out, you know, the problematic people from the wrong places, you know, in a perfect world, that's how you would stop these ideas from getting into Canada.

00:24:02.420 But what kind of test, what would that look like?

00:24:05.160 How would we get there, right?

00:24:05.980 I mean, this is a really challenging debate.

00:24:07.860 And it would be one of those tests where there's a clear right answer to every question.

00:24:11.520 And then you get the other thing of, are these views, for example, if you were to say, do you believe the Holocaust happened?

00:24:16.800 And that was one of your Canadian values questions that you asked.

00:24:20.360 Are people proud and loud and say, you know, absolutely, I'm a Holocaust writer?

00:24:23.980 They'd be like, okay, I'm going to answer it this way because I know that's what they want.

00:24:27.880 And then it ceases to be a meaningful tool for immigration.

00:24:31.100 Plus, the other thing is that, I mean, we live in a obviously highly digital world now.

00:24:34.900 Ideas can cross borders whether or not people are physically here.

00:24:37.500 So even if you manage to keep out the individuals with these views,

00:24:41.240 what's to say they're still not going to be able to access them at the click of a button?

00:24:44.220 Yeah, and so I guess the question is, do we need to go back even further and define what Canadian values are?

00:24:50.340 Because I think there's a lot of relativism in this, where if you were to go and poll Canadians born in Canada who've only ever lived in Canada,

00:24:56.840 say, what's a Canadian value? You're probably going to get some very superficial answers, I think.

00:25:01.420 I think you're going to get hockey and maple syrup and kindness, which are core things.

00:25:06.260 But really, to get down to the values of what you need to build a society, do we have that in this country?

00:25:12.480 Yeah. And I mean, the one way to look at it is that we're just part of a sort of broad, you know, Western civilization. We all, you know, the countries have similar values. What makes Canada distinct? Is there something different? Do we basically have the same values as Australia or the UK or US or some combination thereof?

00:25:27.880 So, you know, as a country that often struggles to define itself, I think that puts us in a particularly challenging spot vis-a-vis some of our peers.

00:25:36.320 They kind of know who they are to start with, and so they can measure people coming and adapting, you know, because they've got a starting point.

00:25:42.220 In Canada, it's sort of like we're struggling with that starting point in the first place.

00:25:45.700 So it is a battle here.

00:25:47.800 All right.

00:25:48.040 Well, Aaron Woodrick, looking forward to seeing what you do at the conference this week.

00:25:51.120 We are live from the Canada Strong and Free Network Conference in Ottawa.

00:25:54.440 Thank you so much for coming by, Aaron.

00:25:55.820 Always a pleasure.

00:25:56.220 to you. All right. Thanks very much. We'll get you to exit stage left there. And oh, we were trying

00:26:01.920 to hide. There we go. We were we were trying to hide the hide our stage magic from you, but we

00:26:06.020 failed at doing so. But that's all right. We will have a great time with this. And just on that note,

00:26:10.740 I think it's incredibly important here that we have the discussion in society and in culture.

00:26:16.780 And I'm often asked about the value of independent media. And I think the reason is that politicians

00:26:21.200 are and we're going to talk to one in just a couple of moments here are inherently followers.

00:26:25.040 And that's not to say you don't have politicians that really want to lead, but there needs to be a base of support on an issue, on a discussion, before they can even do that, before they can even get involved in that debate.

00:26:37.040 So I had the great privilege on Monday of emceeing the swearing-in ceremony of Jamil Javani, who was just elected a little over a month ago as the Conservative Member of Parliament in Durham, and he joins us now.

00:26:48.900 Jamil, congratulations. Good to talk to you, sir.

00:26:51.140 Yeah, good to see you here.

00:26:51.960 Yeah, so I had joked when I swore him in that if Justin Trudeau found out I was the emcee, they might have actually rescinded the election results, but they didn't.

00:26:59.660 You took the oath, you signed in, you even got the chance to ask a question in question period on Monday.

00:27:04.980 Just on that note, and this isn't even a partisan question, but how does it feel?

00:27:08.360 Because you're a guy that's come through tremendous adversity, you've written about it, you've conquered many challenges, but is there a moment when you walk into that house and you're just, wow.

00:27:17.080 It is overwhelming.

00:27:18.340 I mean, I'm a patriot.

00:27:19.880 I love Canada.

00:27:20.560 I think we live in an awesome country, and that's one of the reasons I want to help fix it from our current leadership in Ottawa.

00:27:27.780 And, you know, when you're in there and you see, like, the history and you know the generations of people who've been in there

00:27:34.040 and tried to build something special, it hits you.

00:27:36.760 It hits you hard, and it puts into perspective, you know, where we are,

00:27:40.100 which is that we have benefited from the hard work of many people who came before us, the generations that built Canada.

00:27:46.080 And now it's sort of on us.

00:27:47.520 Like, do we keep this country, you know, do we maintain it to be something special, a place where people from all over the world can come and have a better life?

00:27:53.980 Or do we wind up, you know, losing what we built?

00:27:56.640 And it really puts into respect when you see all the portraits on the walls and the old furniture, just, you know, how deep that foundation is.

00:28:03.940 I was mentioned earlier on when I was speaking with Adam Bullock, who's the president of the Canada Strong and Free Network, that you had the job last time.

00:28:10.740 I did, yeah.

00:28:11.280 You were here.

00:28:11.920 You and I had a conversation with you in a different role here.

00:28:14.460 So how does it feel to be back here now in this new capacity?

00:28:17.960 You've left the presidency behind and you're now back as an MP.

00:28:21.200 Yeah, it's pretty cool.

00:28:22.140 I mean, this is an important organization for building our movement.

00:28:25.680 And our party needs a healthy conservative movement, which is why I was very happy to have this role.

00:28:31.140 And, you know, now that I'm in the party and I'm sitting in parliament, I don't lose that perspective.

00:28:36.380 I know how important the non-governmental organizations are to make sure that we have a just country and a country that pursues the best ideas.

00:28:42.660 You spoke in your question on Monday about basically the millennial struggle that I think has become pretty common, commonly shared by not just Pierre Polyev and people in your party, but by people in this country.

00:28:56.160 You know, you've got the millennials that can't afford to buy houses. 0.99

00:28:59.000 You've got people that are priced out of the communities that they've always wanted to live in and have grown up in.

00:29:03.360 And you've lived that struggle yourself.

00:29:05.600 And I mean, I don't want to, you know, MPs just got a pay raise this year.

00:29:08.640 So I'm not going to say, you know, everyone feel bad for Jamil Javani.

00:29:10.900 You're doing all right now.

00:29:11.680 But this has been a challenge that you've lived and the government has talked about it, but they've not offered any solutions on this, have they?

00:29:20.780 No, the Liberal government certainly has not.

00:29:23.220 I mean, the truth is that millennials put Justin Trudeau in the prime minister.

00:29:27.480 Yeah, it was our generation who elected him because he promised us something better.

00:29:32.560 And I think we're going to be the generation that takes him down. 0.63

00:29:35.640 We're going to be the generation that elects his replacement, 0.89

00:29:37.880 who will elect Pierre Polyev to be the next prime minister

00:29:40.660 because we've given Justin Trudeau and the Liberals eight years

00:29:43.280 and our lives have only gotten harder.

00:29:45.340 I knocked on over 100,000 doors in my riding of Durham

00:29:48.440 in the past year working on this election.

00:29:51.300 And I can tell you every single day I was hearing stories

00:29:54.200 from millennials who feel like their life is on hold.

00:29:57.540 They can't buy a house.

00:29:58.720 They can't start a family.

00:29:59.940 They can't get their career going the way they feel they should.

00:30:03.380 And we're a generation that deserves better.

00:30:05.540 And I think as we really come to see that we deserve better,

00:30:09.400 there'll be no choice but to elect a new prime minister.

00:30:12.440 Trudeau doesn't deserve our loyalty.

00:30:14.000 Were you seeing, because there's always been that issue with youth voter apathy that we were told.

00:30:19.040 And one of the reasons that Justin Trudeau did so well with millennials in 2015

00:30:22.900 wasn't because these millennials were non-liberal voters that voted liberal.

00:30:26.500 They were non-voters.

00:30:27.800 And just, you know, he offered them, in some cases they wanted, you know, legalized pot.

00:30:31.140 In other cases, they wanted that bigger, brighter future.

00:30:34.100 Are you still seeing that apathy?

00:30:35.740 Are you seeing that people in that younger demo are really, really engaged and really active in politics right now?

00:30:42.480 Well, part of it is just a matter of maturation, you know?

00:30:46.300 Yeah, the people that were 18 in 2015 are now not.

00:30:49.240 Now our generation is the biggest cohort in terms of a voter block in Canada.

00:30:53.860 And we're paying a lot of the taxes.

00:30:55.920 We're raising the kids.

00:30:57.440 We see what's happening every day.

00:30:58.920 And we're feeling that pressure from the economy.

00:31:01.140 So I think part of it is just getting older and establishing yourself and realizing we've got to take some, you know, ownership of the country and make sure we're guiding it in a better place.

00:31:09.600 You know, I'm 36. Me getting elected as part of our generation, start sort of getting into parliament, making our voice heard that we're no longer going to be just on the margins as like the young voice.

00:31:18.680 But we are the voice that we are. We are part of this team treated like equals, just like everybody else.

00:31:23.300 One thing that I will say that was great about your swearing-in ceremony was that you were unafraid to share who you were. And you had a worship team there. You had a pastor there. You had all of these things that were told are not supposed to be a part of politics.

00:31:38.860 So you're a different type of candidate. I think you're a different type of, you know, well, you're certainly part of a different generation.

00:31:45.380 But I'm curious how that weighs on you. Like, have you had an opportunity to take stock of like what type of MP you want to be?

00:31:53.980 Yeah, I've I've led with honesty and transparency the entire way through.

00:31:59.060 I think that that is what has made Pierre Polyev catch fire in this country,

00:32:03.460 is that people see him as someone who's willing to tell the truth,

00:32:06.340 confront the liberal media when they're not giving us a fair shake.

00:32:09.600 And I think that's what people want from their politicians right now.

00:32:11.900 They want someone who, when they see them on YouTube or they see them on television

00:32:14.840 or hear them on the radio, that we're going to tell the truth.

00:32:17.520 And we're more loyal to the people of Canada than we are to the liberal establishment

00:32:22.040 and the liberal institutions that want to shape and dictate public opinion.

00:32:26.620 So I'm very clear about who I am, my beliefs, my values,

00:32:29.800 and I think that is why people of all different cultures and backgrounds

00:32:33.020 trust me to represent them because they know whether I'm knocking on their door

00:32:36.540 or they're watching me on TV or on the internet that I'm telling them what it is

00:32:41.560 and that if I say I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it.

00:32:44.000 So what is it that you would like to achieve in the next,

00:32:47.640 I mean, let's assume you have 18 months in this role before you're back to the polls again.

00:32:51.240 Do you have a bucket list of things that you feel you could get done

00:32:54.720 within that relatively short period of time?

00:32:56.520 My first goal right now is just to kind of learn how everything works.

00:32:59.100 Well, figure out where the bathroom is. 0.98

00:33:00.040 Yeah, exactly.

00:33:00.180 Figure out where the bathroom is, figure out how you get to get around.

00:33:02.480 Yeah, like today is my first vote,

00:33:04.680 and it's cool to learn how that process works and to participate.

00:33:09.480 So I'm still—

00:33:09.780 Is it a good one, or is it like, you know, voting on, you know,

00:33:11.880 like changing the signs on the entry, the visitor center entry?

00:33:15.580 No, it's a good one.

00:33:16.420 It's another effort to push back on the carbon tax,

00:33:19.160 and I think that's a big part of why I was elected

00:33:20.720 was to continue pushing back on the carbon tax.

00:33:23.660 So it's a good first vote.

00:33:24.480 i'm excited about it but you know and that's what i want to continue doing is showing people that

00:33:28.480 the affordability issues are not don't have to be this way that there are deliberate choices that

00:33:33.680 our current government is making that is making life more expensive and as and i want people to

00:33:39.040 understand that and not to feel that this difficult lot in life that a lot of us have been given right

00:33:43.440 now is it doesn't have to be this way and if i can make people see that to have hope that things can

00:33:48.720 be better and we go into the general election with a lot of people saying we deserve better

00:33:52.880 We're going to change the status quo. I would feel like it was a great first year and a half.

00:33:57.660 One of the challenges when you're in opposition is that you're elected with this mandate.

00:34:01.800 And I don't want to say you're powerless. You can hold the government to account.

00:34:05.440 But at the end of the day, the NDP have given the Liberals a blank check on this.

00:34:09.040 And, you know, conservatives have made tremendous efforts to, you know, with a non-confidence motion a couple of weeks ago,

00:34:14.420 motions on the carbon tax that have just been blocked at every point.

00:34:18.000 So is there a frustration you have already, not to take away your enthusiasm and optimism, about, like, people are in crisis now.

00:34:26.880 And for some people, I actually don't know if they're able to hold on a year and a half.

00:34:31.880 Well, if we continue to do the job that Pierre Polyev has started, which is to continue pushing the accountability to the Liberal government, maybe we can push them to have an election sooner.

00:34:42.120 I really hope that that's the case.

00:34:43.880 We had a non-confidence vote.

00:34:44.840 You're not electioned out already?

00:34:46.040 No, I'm ready to go.

00:34:47.300 Listen, it wouldn't be the easiest lifestyle for me to go back into an election right away,

00:34:53.020 but it would be the best thing for Canada.

00:34:54.640 And if we can continue pushing the Liberals to the point where they feel they've got to call an election,

00:34:59.280 or maybe we can get the NDP to jump off the Liberal bandwagon,

00:35:02.640 get the Bloc Québécois on side to be pushing for an election.

00:35:05.620 And if these changes we can push for, we can actually see some change faster than October 2025.

00:35:10.260 That would be amazing.

00:35:11.920 But even outside of that, you know, a lot of the committee work that, you know,

00:35:15.380 my caucus members are doing on all these very specific issues like the arrive can scandal for

00:35:20.640 example they've done an excellent job of pushing for more accountability more transparency from

00:35:26.040 this government and there are things that we can do just to make sure that things don't get worse

00:35:30.600 and believe me without effective opposition the liberal government could just get worse

00:35:34.960 yeah at the very least there has to be something else to run when trudeau says something about what

00:35:40.260 the other side is there has to be another side there and i guess i would ask you then about

00:35:44.220 how real that carbon tax discussion is on the ground.

00:35:47.400 Because oftentimes there's this divide between Twitter and real life

00:35:51.200 and a divide between Ottawa and real life.

00:35:53.140 And I've seen, I've covered a couple of the Pierre Polyev rallies,

00:35:56.380 one of which you spoke at a few weeks ago in Etobicoke,

00:35:58.580 where he's talking about axing the tax and spiking the hike.

00:36:01.460 And you see people out there at the doors.

00:36:03.520 Is that penetrating to people that are not highly engaged or highly political?

00:36:08.340 Is that actually a live issue for what we would call really ordinary folks?

00:36:13.000 I do believe so, yes.

00:36:14.220 So one of the great things that we've been able to do with Pierre Palliv as our leader is take

00:36:18.540 advantage of social media as to communicate with the public and not have to go through the

00:36:22.540 traditional liberal media channels. And I think that has helped us get the message out there

00:36:26.700 so that people knew what was happening on April 1st, that the tax is going up 23%,

00:36:31.740 the cost of groceries, gas and home heating was going up. And people feel that. Almost every day

00:36:36.540 I hear from people in Durham, whether they're farmers or their moms and dads, consumers,

00:36:41.020 people are producing um various goods and manufacturing items that they feel the tax is

00:36:46.940 affecting them on their bottom lines and when the liberals come out and say oh it's okay that you're

00:36:50.940 paying more because we're going to give you a rebate i mean they just like what is happening

00:36:55.100 here like this is so against their life experience so i do think that is coming across and i think

00:37:00.540 people know like they can feel it every day that they're having to make tough decisions

00:37:04.460 where as they used to be able to do two things with their paycheck now they can only do one

00:37:08.220 and it's getting tougher and tougher so our message is definitely resonating and i do think

00:37:12.300 especially in a place like durham where i represent where you do have a lot of working

00:37:15.660 class and middle class families i think they can feel that they're butting up against a ceiling

00:37:19.900 right now that it's getting harder to get ahead in life and the carbon tax has been one of the

00:37:24.380 key policies that's getting in their way i'm just amazed as we close here that you're two days in

00:37:29.260 and you're not even wearing your pin oh i thought you'd be wearing that loud and proud just out

00:37:32.700 there yeah i i've gotten to know a lot of the security and uh some of the local police have

00:37:37.020 spend a lot of time with the guys who work at work at the house of commons so they do recognize

00:37:40.620 me without the pen i've been able to get in and out of security back back in in the 2011 election

00:37:45.580 when you had elected all those like 19 year olds from quebec the issue is that like the security

00:37:49.660 thought they were all like interns and they're like no i'm a member of parliament but you don't

00:37:52.940 need to do the don't you know who i am because they all know who you are now well uh congratulations

00:37:56.620 again jameel it's great to see you in this role and i look forward to having you back on as an mp

00:38:00.300 now thanks andrew have a great time with the canon strong all right thank you you didn't have to

00:38:03.660 to organize it this year i did not know you had to come have fun all right well thank you very

00:38:07.180 much thank you always good to see you and you can head out that way there when uh when you feel like

00:38:10.780 it all right well uh thank you so much to jamil we're going to continue on with the show here and

00:38:15.660 i wanted to talk a little bit about the bigger picture for a moment because i have been somewhat

00:38:19.740 disconnected from all of your comments right now so we'll try to get to those uh in the shows that

00:38:24.860 come this week but one of the things i've always loved about being at the canada strong and free

00:38:29.100 network conference is that in some ways it's a big old family reunion so all of these people that we

00:38:33.180 We have on the show on a regular basis, like Aaron Woodrick from McDonald Laurier or our friend Chris Sims from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

00:38:40.300 They're all just walking about. And today, by the way, the conference hasn't even actually really started.

00:38:46.580 It's going to be, I think, registration opens at three. So in about an hour and a half.

00:38:51.280 And then we have the big event with Tony Abbott and Boris Johnson tonight.

00:38:55.380 So tomorrow and Friday will be the big two days. Like I said, I'm on with former, not former, no, I demoted him.

00:39:01.780 I'm on with current New Brunswick Premier Blaine Higgs tomorrow,

00:39:05.380 and we'll have some footage of that to share on the Andrew Lawton Show probably next week.

00:39:09.840 And also Danielle Smith sitting down with her on Friday.

00:39:13.140 And we've done that now a few times.

00:39:14.620 I'm trying to remember because I did one with her.

00:39:17.240 Well, at True North Nation, I did a sit down with Danielle Smith.

00:39:20.240 And then I did one also at the Canada Strong and Free Networking Conference in Red Deer.

00:39:24.400 But I had like 10 minutes notice on that one because they weren't going to do an interview.

00:39:27.640 And then she had said she wanted it and I was just available.

00:39:30.700 So this one I had a bit more notice on, so I will have to come up with some stellar questions that I haven't already put to Premier Smith.

00:39:38.540 But she's always been a big fan of True North and a big supporter of our work.

00:39:43.120 But I'd mentioned one of the things I'm interested in is how you get beyond the momentum right now that exists in the conservative movement, where Adam Bullock talked about this.

00:39:53.220 Obviously, a lot of people on the right say, yeah, they're riding high.

00:39:56.540 Pierre Polyev is leading in the polls.

00:39:58.260 Everything's great.

00:39:58.940 They're all going to win.

00:39:59.560 But what do you do with that mandate? And that is such a crucial question here. And remember, even if, you know, Pierre Polyeb wins some big giant super majority and he goes into parliament with, you know, 212 seats or something like that, what do you do with that?

00:40:15.440 How do you keep the coalition that is required together?

00:40:20.300 And I remember not to besmirch the good name of Stephen Harper in halls that tend to view him very favorably.

00:40:26.320 And I view Stephen Harper very favorably.

00:40:28.640 But he was a very cautious leader.

00:40:30.540 And even when he got his majority government, a lot of the big, bold change that a lot of people on the right had been hoping for and looking for from him never came.

00:40:38.720 He never touched CBC, never touched the Canadian Human Rights Commission,

00:40:41.800 left the Senate with a tremendous number of vacancies

00:40:45.600 that will make it very difficult for a future conservative government.

00:40:50.020 I haven't looked at the numbers lately,

00:40:52.600 but the Senate is going to be a big obstacle to what a conservative government does.

00:40:57.980 The Senate is going to be a tremendous obstacle,

00:41:00.060 and it will take many, many years before the power balance in the Senate

00:41:04.400 shifts back to a point where the conservatives have a mostly automatic green light

00:41:09.440 that they can put on their legislation.

00:41:10.960 So that's going to be, I think, very interesting to see unfold here.

00:41:15.100 So these are some of the bigger picture discussions that I would ask people who are here,

00:41:20.500 especially people who are involved in the conservative movement and involved in conservative

00:41:24.160 politics, to really focus on.

00:41:27.100 It's what are you going to do with that mandate?

00:41:28.960 What are you going to do and how are you going to get it done?

00:41:30.980 And are you going to actually defund CBC?

00:41:32.740 So that's going to be, I think, a crucial, crucial question that needs to be asked here.

00:41:37.100 and one of the many issues that are getting all the applause lines

00:41:41.460 at Pierre Poliev's rallies and press conferences.

00:41:45.560 But with that, I want to talk to someone who's on the other side of the coin

00:41:48.820 from what Jamil Giovanni has just done.

00:41:51.220 He won in a by-election here and talk about a gentleman

00:41:53.680 who we've had on the show a number of times in different capacities

00:41:57.000 as a filmmaker, an independent media star,

00:41:59.580 and now is a conservative candidate in British Columbia, Aaron Gunn.

00:42:03.680 Aaron, good to talk to you. Thanks for coming on.

00:42:05.540 Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

00:42:07.480 I would like it noted as well, even though he's a politician now, he came unstaffed.

00:42:11.040 So he's still flying solo right now.

00:42:13.000 You didn't do like...

00:42:13.460 Not a politician.

00:42:14.920 Oh, yeah, you're a politician. I tried that line when I ran too.

00:42:18.060 But let me ask you, Aaron, first off, why you wanted to do it?

00:42:21.620 Because you and I have been doing, you know, working in a similar space in independent media.

00:42:25.820 And I've always said there's a tremendous influence there.

00:42:28.300 You're doing great work there.

00:42:29.460 Why did you want to shift into this role?

00:42:31.760 I think the big thing was, Andrew, as you pointed out, we've been making...

00:42:35.280 I've been making documentaries for the past couple years now.

00:42:37.900 We've produced over 24 documentaries and have been talking about a lot of these issues,

00:42:41.200 investigating these issues, complaining and pointing out the state of the country.

00:42:45.980 It leaves a lot to be desired, and I wanted to do something about it.

00:42:48.940 And so this seemed like a good opportunity to step forward.

00:42:51.840 So that was a big reason.

00:42:53.820 The other reason is I just think that this might be one of the most important elections in a generation.

00:42:59.580 And I got a chance to know Pierre through interviewing him a couple times.

00:43:03.500 I think he's the real deal and would love to be part of his team to write this country, get this country back on track and write it in the right direction.

00:43:12.020 You're in an interesting situation in your riding because you're going up against the NDP locally.

00:43:18.120 Nationally, it's a fight against the Liberals.

00:43:20.680 And I'm curious how that translates down, because I think we've heard anecdotally that Conservatives are drawing from lifelong NDP supporters and non-voters.

00:43:29.880 And I'm curious how you're seeing that on the ground in an area where the Liberals are not really the first or even second choice for people as it is.

00:43:36.480 Yeah, they only got 13% of the vote in the last election.

00:43:40.020 I think what's going to hurt the NDP the most, I think we're appealing to them in a lot of ways,

00:43:45.180 but what's going to hurt them the most is that almost nobody voted for Justin Trudeau,

00:43:49.680 and yet their member of parliament has been voting to prop up this government

00:43:53.540 and everything that they've put forward for the past coming up on three years.

00:43:58.940 So I think that's what's going to hurt them.

00:44:01.080 We knock on doors.

00:44:01.800 Nobody likes Justin Trudeau.

00:44:02.960 That's the one kind of consensus up in North Island, Powell River.

00:44:05.540 That's a good starting point when you go to the door

00:44:07.280 and they already hate the guy you're running against.

00:44:09.160 That's what I say.

00:44:10.460 I knock on the doors and I ask people what they think of the government in Ottawa

00:44:13.280 and I get a lot of laughs and smirks.

00:44:15.460 But the truth is that the NDP has been voting to increase the carbon tax every year.

00:44:19.920 They've been voting for these catch-and-release justice policies.

00:44:23.060 And so I think the challenge that I have is just to make sure that people know

00:44:27.760 that their NDP member of parliament has been voting with Justin Trudeau

00:44:30.700 on all these different issues,

00:44:31.580 not to mention covering up a bunch of these very serious ethic investigations.

00:44:36.400 There really are, in a lot of ways, two NDPs.

00:44:39.140 There's the old sort of Jack Layton-esque NDP of the really,

00:44:42.720 you know, the Farmers Party almost.

00:44:44.140 Like, they go back even before Jack Layton.

00:44:45.920 It's the old CCF roots,

00:44:47.420 and I think that's where a lot of your traditional union blue-collar types have found. 0.75

00:44:51.600 And then there's this weird, bizarro, woke NDP that hates Israel

00:44:56.960 and, you know, thinks that, I mean, everyone knows sort of the central casting NDP

00:45:02.420 or I'm talking about here.

00:45:03.560 And there has to be a schism there in that party that you must see on the ground

00:45:08.620 where people look at Jagmeet Singh and say, I'm a union guy.

00:45:12.380 I want jobs. I want housing.

00:45:14.000 Like, this is not my NDP.

00:45:16.780 Yeah, well, the NDP, as you point out, used to be the party of the working man.

00:45:20.680 It used to be the party of the everyday Canadian.

00:45:24.160 And now they've replaced that base with their new base, which is the woke mob,

00:45:29.060 the people that are more concerned with renaming cities, streets, and towns

00:45:32.920 and ensuring they're safe for the people that live there,

00:45:34.800 more concerned with handing out free drugs and getting people into treatment and recovery.

00:45:39.240 And I think the only challenge, really, for myself and for other Conservative candidates in the party generally

00:45:45.480 is just to make sure that Canadians know that,

00:45:47.900 because they still have a brand that goes back to being the party that stood up for the everyday person,

00:45:53.320 the blue collar worker and we need to do a better job of communicating that this is not the same 0.99

00:45:59.240 party anymore this is the woke party this is the party of uh you know university professors and

00:46:04.680 and downtown vancouver and toronto so um that's the message that i'm trying to deliver on the

00:46:09.720 doors and we have to keep doing it though to make sure people realize not the not your uh

00:46:14.120 grandfather's ndp as they say one of the interesting things about a lot of your work

00:46:17.880 that we we've talked about on the show and talked about with you has been that you were ahead of the

00:46:21.560 curve on things. Like I remember with Vancouver is dying, Canada is dying, you were touching on

00:46:26.280 these hot button issues that at the time were not really mainstream issues and certainly not

00:46:31.560 mainstream perspectives. Whereas now left, right, center, mainstream media, independent media,

00:46:36.600 everyone's looking at just the collapse of Canadian cities, the drug problem, the homelessness

00:46:41.400 problem. And you were really ahead of the curve on that. And I'm wondering how that feels now

00:46:46.840 that things that in some cases were viciously attacked when you were drawing attention to

00:46:50.600 of these things are now like uncontroversial things to say yeah well it's first and foremost

00:46:57.120 it is it it feels good to see that there is i think a new common sense consensus uh emerging

00:47:04.680 here in canada about some of these issues and to me it should have never been that difficult

00:47:09.260 to figure out in the first place that maybe handing out free drugs wasn't going to solve

00:47:13.600 the addictions crisis um that uh incentivizing or making it easier to undertake anti-social

00:47:20.480 behavior would somehow lead to good outcomes for society and for the communities and the

00:47:24.800 neighborhoods that people live in but it does seem to be that people are waking up unfortunately

00:47:28.960 i think that's the case of the situation getting so bad you can't ignore i think what used to happen

00:47:35.760 when justin trudeau was putting forward these proposals is quite frankly uh they would be

00:47:40.240 be spun by the mainstream media, by outlets like the CBC as to being positive or not showing

00:47:46.960 the potential negative consequences of that.

00:47:49.300 But you can't cover up with good media coverage what's happening in our cities if you live

00:47:54.040 in the city.

00:47:55.040 You can't cover up what's happening to inflation when you're the one going to the grocery store,

00:47:59.280 you're the one going to the gas station.

00:48:01.220 And what I hope in the future is we'll have less of that to begin with, faster uptake

00:48:08.560 of counter-narratives with outlets like True North and others

00:48:13.840 that are gaining a larger and larger market share

00:48:16.120 in the battle of ideas that we have in this country.

00:48:18.860 And I wish you guys, hopefully you guys will hold me to account

00:48:23.420 if I'm successful in the next election.

00:48:25.600 Well, hopefully you won't give us reasons to, but yeah, we will.

00:48:27.980 We'll do our part on that as long as you just make good on defunding CBC

00:48:30.940 so we have less government-sponsored, state-sponsored competition there.

00:48:35.500 I'll just ask you about kind of your own technique.

00:48:38.940 I mean, I actually heard you give a talk to student journalists a year ago about storytelling.

00:48:43.020 And I'm curious if you have a way to integrate that in your campaign yet.

00:48:46.580 I know Pierre Polyev obviously has released a couple of these mini documentaries.

00:48:50.300 Is that something you have a position to do at the local level or is it just about door knocking?

00:48:54.920 Yeah, we got, I don't know if I'm in a position to announce anything just yet, but we're going to have some more.

00:49:00.040 I'm not Aaron Gunn, the filmmaker isn't finished just yet.

00:49:02.920 Okay.

00:49:03.820 But, you know, even once you get into the politics,

00:49:06.520 I think if you're an effective campaigner, effective politician,

00:49:10.300 it does come down to stories.

00:49:11.660 I think that's one of the reasons Pierre has been very successful.

00:49:14.460 It's not just about graphs and figures.

00:49:16.460 And actually, I think this is one of the reasons why the left

00:49:19.900 has been more successful in Canadian politics

00:49:22.020 is because they're used to telling stories.

00:49:24.280 And a lot of time, to counter that,

00:49:26.940 we just try to point out some facts and figures.

00:49:29.480 We've got to tell stories, too.

00:49:31.180 And to do that, I think you have to get those facts and figures.

00:49:34.300 You have to get those verifiable results and outcomes

00:49:37.240 and relate them back to people's lives.

00:49:40.260 And so that's what I'm looking forward to doing going forward.

00:49:44.280 A good example is with those crime policies.

00:49:46.320 It's not just about kind of the abstract interpretation of these bills

00:49:50.100 or what it might mean.

00:49:51.320 It's how has it affected Samantha's life living in Campbell River?

00:49:56.620 How has it impacted Paul's life living in Comox or et cetera?

00:50:00.560 et cetera. So telling the people's stories and Canadian stories, I think will be an ongoing part

00:50:07.080 of what I'm doing and really should be for everybody who wants to be successful in connecting

00:50:12.160 with Canadians. Because I think we view our lives as stories. We're all our kind of main character

00:50:16.940 in our own story. And there's a bunch of common threads and common narratives that tie us all

00:50:22.440 together. And that's the story of Canada. I'll hold you to account right now, actually,

00:50:25.620 because before you announced you were running, you recorded an interview with me that never

00:50:29.260 saw the light of day because you went into politics so we got we got to we got to get that

00:50:32.960 out at some point oh that's still that's uh poutine and politics yeah i wasn't going to

00:50:36.980 announce it yeah yeah no it's it's uh it's still you know we played with it a little bit maybe we'll

00:50:41.780 end up releasing it it was uh obviously going to be a different kind of show built on that

00:50:46.300 comedians and cars getting coffee and um there's just so only so many ways of doing poutine though

00:50:51.200 i got poutine and a conversation with aaron gun out of it though so i can't complain too too much

00:50:55.880 and actually when we were doing that the former deputy premier of ontario who hates me

00:51:00.240 was at the next table over and had to see us being interviewed and yeah so we got to have

00:51:05.020 some fun with it anyway but uh all right well i look forward to seeing what you do in your

00:51:08.780 political life and yeah we have the standing invitation to hold his feet to the fire so

00:51:12.720 uh but my challenge to him is to don't give us a reason to so aaron great to see you thanks very

00:51:16.900 much for coming down today thank you very much for having me all right and you can just head out

00:51:20.600 on stage left there when you are ready uh it is great to talk to like i said all these people

00:51:25.840 that we're usually talking about and talking to in Zoom boxes

00:51:28.900 to do these in-person chats.

00:51:30.940 So we're just warming up today.

00:51:32.660 The conference is actually kicking off tonight,

00:51:34.600 so we'll have lots more to get to in the next couple of days

00:51:37.320 here on The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:51:38.800 But from Ottawa, this is True North.

00:51:40.600 Thank you, God bless, and good day to you all.

00:51:43.840 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:51:46.080 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - April 11, 2024

Canadian conservatives descend on Ottawa ｜ CSFN Day 1

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