Juno News - Canadian parents reject biased teaching in K-12 classrooms

00:00:00.000 But I do want to turn to what's happening in your child's classroom.

00:00:13.860 This has been an issue in which I think for far too long, parents have been, I don't want to say

00:00:18.200 complacent, but they've just been trusting. They've trusted the system that when your kids go to

00:00:23.200 school, they're learning about the things they're supposed to be learning about. It's a reasonable

00:00:26.900 assumption, but not exactly in 2024. We have heard so many stories, I would say some in fact rising to

00:00:33.940 the threshold of horror stories about where parents have just been mortified to learn what

00:00:39.780 their kids are learning or perhaps not learning is a better way of putting it. Now parents when

00:00:45.280 they learn about this overwhelmingly rejected. This was a bit encouraging. It came out in a study done

00:00:50.440 by the Fraser Institute last week on how parents do in fact want balance and not political bias

00:00:56.340 when it comes to what's being taught in the K-12 classroom. 86% agree that there needs to be

00:01:03.140 facts over opinions in Canadian classrooms. The overall support for parental notice of

00:01:08.240 controversial topics, another key sticking point here, 81% believe in this. Some other numbers

00:01:14.420 we'll dig into here with the study author Paige McPherson from the Fraser Institute. She is the

00:01:19.220 Associate Director of Education Policy and it's always good to have her on. Paige, thanks for coming on

00:01:23.980 today. Yeah, thanks for having me. So I mean in some ways it seems just blatantly obvious when you put

00:01:29.940 the question to a parent, do you want your kid to get facts in the classroom? Well of course they're

00:01:34.060 going to say yes, but it's not obvious in practice as we're seeing. Yeah, so I think this is interesting

00:01:40.000 and it sort of speaks to two different things. One is whether teachers focus on facts or whether they

00:01:46.980 share opinions or interpretations of their own of those facts in the classroom. And the other is the

00:01:54.760 curriculum, you know, which the provincial government does have quite a lot of input into, control over,

00:02:01.500 and whether or not that focuses on specific facts that children should be learning. Or so in other words,

00:02:09.140 whether it's really content rich, or if it leaves it more open to teachers' interpretations,

00:02:15.720 it gives kind of a vague overview and then teachers can roll with it in whichever direction that they

00:02:20.020 choose. So we gave the framing, you know, that sometimes there is some debate over whether or not

00:02:25.840 teachers should be sharing their facts or their interpretations of the facts, which can include

00:02:32.300 their opinions. And as you said, 86% of parents with kids in K-12 schools with a representative sampling

00:02:40.960 right across the country. So in every province and region, 86% of those parents believe that

00:02:46.380 teachers and curriculum in K-12 schools should focus on providing students with facts rather than

00:02:52.100 teachers' interpretations or opinions and a learning environment within which students can openly explore

00:02:57.380 those facts. Were these pretty constant across the country? They were, yeah. So we really found

00:03:03.280 just with one, we can get into it later, it has to do with whether or not a child should be,

00:03:09.960 or parents should be able to remove a child from a specific controversial lesson without impacting

00:03:14.480 the child's grade. Parents in Quebec did not, the majority did not feel that way. In literally every

00:03:20.360 case, on every question that we asked in every province or region, parents were in complete consensus,

00:03:29.640 not complete consensus, but overwhelming majority consensus, that they should be involved and informed

00:03:37.600 what their children are learning. And that facts are really are really important and should trump

00:03:43.080 opinions in classrooms and in informal school activities. When we had last fall, the discussion

00:03:49.440 of quote unquote parental rights, it was typically from one side of the equation. And it was about one

00:03:54.320 particular area predominantly. It was about a lot of gender and teachings related to sexuality. But

00:03:59.720 the questions that you're asking are on their face content neutral here. When you're saying facts,

00:04:04.780 not opinions, that could be someone who is like a really, really hardcore climate change alarmist

00:04:11.100 that doesn't want an opinion critical of that, or it could be the opposite of that. So the whole point

00:04:16.480 of this is, I would see it, is that when you put facts above a teacher's opinion, facts above a teacher's

00:04:20.980 interpretation, it is non-discriminating. Yeah, that's right. So, you know, I think what is a

00:04:27.340 controversial issue? And as you said, you know, 81% more than four and five parents with kids in K-12

00:04:33.220 schools believe that schools should provide advanced notice of controversial topics being

00:04:37.180 discussed in class or during formal school activities, what is a controversial issue is

00:04:42.800 going to depend on the family. The different families are going to have different views on

00:04:45.980 what a controversial is for their kids. And what we see here is that there is a clear consensus among

00:04:50.980 parents that they want to be given a heads up so they can make their own decisions for their kids.

00:04:56.180 And we explained, you know, in sort of our preambles to these questions, we did this polling

00:05:00.760 with Leger, you know, very reputable polling firm here in Canada, that, you know, the controversial

00:05:06.320 issues, just some examples might involve sexuality or gender, might involve how we respond to climate

00:05:11.980 change. But ultimately, you're right. I mean, it could be any sort of issue. And it really depends

00:05:18.000 on the family. Some families might wish to discuss these issues with their children in advance.

00:05:22.780 Other families might wish to remove their child from a lesson that they just don't feel is age

00:05:26.380 appropriate. But ultimately, parents want to have that heads up. So explain to me where policymakers

00:05:33.080 should go with this, because we saw a little flurry of this in New Brunswick, in Saskatchewan,

00:05:37.940 in Alberta. We certainly haven't seen it nationally. I think in Ontario, there's been a bit of ambiguity

00:05:42.920 about where the province wants to go with this. But what would you take from this if you were to write

00:05:47.860 the policy that government should be looking at? Well, I think, you know, when it comes to curriculum,

00:05:53.180 this is a really important takeaway from these poll results, in my view, because parents so strongly

00:05:58.980 feel 86% feel that facts should be emphasized rather than teachers' opinions. That really speaks

00:06:05.740 to how curriculum should be designed. And it should be including more facts. And it should be content rich,

00:06:11.680 which gives teachers a very clear framework and guide to how they should be teaching these subjects.

00:06:17.460 For example, we looked at most recently in a study that we released at the Fraser Institute at the

00:06:22.540 History Curricula in Manitoba, BC and Ontario. In BC and Ontario, there were very few specific facts

00:06:30.100 that children had to learn by the time they graduated grade 12. By the time they graduated high school,

00:06:36.080 they had to know almost no Canadian history. So if you were to change the curriculum, change those

00:06:41.920 curriculum guides for teachers, make it a lot more specific about what exact facts, the people,

00:06:46.660 the dates, the names, all of these different things that children should be learning in their

00:06:52.720 curriculum, well, then it gives teachers a much more clear framework of what to teach rather than

00:06:56.720 just teach about genocide. And then they can kind of go in whichever direction that they like.

00:07:01.820 Ultimately, that means that who the child's teacher is, that really matters, because they can take it in

00:07:08.080 so many different directions. So I think it speaks to curriculum. It also speaks to, I think, you know,

00:07:13.260 just the expectations around how teachers have to present the material. So more than three quarters

00:07:18.040 of parents, 76% believe that children should be presented both sides of controversial issues,

00:07:23.140 or they should be avoided entirely. If you can't present both sides, do not talk about controversial

00:07:27.780 issues with our kids. 91% of parents believe classroom material and discussions should always be

00:07:33.320 age appropriate. And as we talked about that, 81% of parents with kids in K-12 schools believe that

00:07:39.720 schools should provide advanced notice. So as you said, you know, this has come up in Ontario,

00:07:44.220 New Brunswick, where there's third party groups that are presenting to kids. In New Brunswick recently,

00:07:48.760 there was a discussion that was supposed to be about HPV went in a totally different direction,

00:07:54.300 addressing a bunch of different sexual behaviors. Parents were outraged. The premier spoke out.

00:07:59.420 And so this is something that really could have been avoided if parents had just been given that

00:08:03.260 advanced notice. So if provincial governments, you know, say to school boards, you need to give

00:08:08.380 that advanced notice. It has to be kind of baked in there. Then individual schools or school boards

00:08:13.120 will know that that's an expectation. Now, this is getting into a trickier territory. And I'll give

00:08:20.280 you the upfront warning that you can just sidestep the question if you'd like, because you're a policy

00:08:25.800 analyst here and not a politician. But there's a challenge now in that the word fact has been

00:08:31.480 weaponized in a lot of ways. And there are subjects that people that are putting what's clearly an

00:08:36.640 opinion would just defend tooth and nail as fact. And I think you see this on some gender things where 0.99

00:08:43.420 you have a certain group that says something is settled and it's not. So if we dig into this a

00:08:49.580 little bit further, how do you account for that in this when you'll have curricula which are developed

00:08:54.040 totally thinking or totally asserting things as facts that might not be?

00:08:59.080 Well, so we actually specifically got to that a little bit in our questions and how we frame them.

00:09:04.040 We specifically said controversial issues about which there is no clear societal consensus or

00:09:11.080 consensus among experts. So there are some things where there is a societal consensus, right? And I

00:09:16.360 mean, you could go down the rabbit hole, but we know that there are, you know, two plus two equals four.

00:09:21.560 And obviously, I know you can run with this, Andrew. But in general, we know that there are things that

00:09:26.400 are established facts that children should be taught. Then there are things like the response to

00:09:31.100 climate change, like sexuality and gender, where there might not be a societal consensus or a clear

00:09:36.220 consensus among experts. And that is specifically what we asked parents about in this poll. In those

00:09:42.140 instances, do you want advanced notice? Parents said yes. Do you want to be able to remove your child

00:09:48.880 from the classroom? And nationally speaking, I said, as I mentioned, the only real outlier on this was

00:09:55.680 was parents in Quebec. But seven in 10 parents believe that other parents should have the right

00:10:00.960 to remove their child from a lesson without consequence to their child's grade, if it is

00:10:06.080 regarding a controversial issue. So parents are again, there's a very clear majority here that believe

00:10:12.400 that if there is no societal consensus on these controversial issues, give parents the ability to

00:10:17.920 decide. Of course, what you're asking about gets to curriculum design as well. And ultimately, I think,

00:10:24.480 you know, what we're hearing from this poll, if I had to interpret that parents are strongly valuing

00:10:30.320 facts rather than interpretations or opinions in terms of what their children are going to be exposed

00:10:35.280 to in lessons and in formal school activities, that to me sends the message that we should just focus

00:10:40.640 on those clearly established facts and not wade into the political stuff in our formal curriculum

00:10:46.400 and curriculum guides. There you go. You took the tough question head on. So I appreciate that,

00:10:50.880 Paige. Just before I let you go, I have to ask you about what's happened in Alberta here this week.

00:10:55.520 We talked about this in the Ontario context, and you had said basically it was a good start,

00:11:00.000 that they were doing some things that you liked and you wish they would do more. This is referring to

00:11:04.720 getting cell phones out of the classroom. Alberta has come out now and said that cell phones from

00:11:10.640 kindergarten to grade 12 will be out of the classroom with narrow exceptions for students that

00:11:16.400 have, you know, particular health needs. Is this basically what you wanted in Ontario and Alberta now?

00:11:21.920 I think that the devil will be in the details as the provincial government moves forward

00:11:27.680 with this policy. The policy seems to suggest that phones need to be out of sight and on silent

00:11:34.080 or turned off. So how they enforce, okay, will it be turned off? The issue that sometimes comes up

00:11:39.360 with these policies, and this happened in Ontario, who you years ago introduced a policy around this,

00:11:43.920 and it just wasn't tough enough because it left it up to the individual schools or boards to decide.

00:11:49.840 And ultimately, you had teachers who were having to surveil and nag their students all day. You had

00:11:54.560 phones that were on silent and out of sight, but they were buzzing in kids' pockets. And we know that

00:11:59.200 this creates a distraction, not only for Johnny, but for Susie, who's then distracted by Johnny,

00:12:04.960 who's reaching for his pocket. And it can take kids, according to some studies, a full 20 minutes to

00:12:09.760 regain focus on an academic lesson after being distracted by a digital device. So I think the

00:12:15.600 best kind of policy is something that is as blanket as possible, right across the board with phones

00:12:22.240 locked away for the school day. So whether you've got them in those, you know, yonder pouches, the

00:12:27.200 lockable pouches, in kids' lockers, in some sort of special designated phone locker, I think that's the

00:12:32.640 cleanest, simplest policy with some exceptions, which actually, you know, we had noted in our writing

00:12:37.680 about this at the Fraser Institute and the Alberta government, I think the education minister

00:12:41.200 specifically noted one reasonable exemption would be for a diabetic student who needs to monitor his

00:12:46.960 blood sugar using an app on his phone. There are reasonable exemptions in there, but giving,

00:12:51.760 you know, every kid who asks for one, oh, I just need to check my phone for such and such a reason.

00:12:57.440 It's very distracting for that kid and the other kids in the class. And ultimately, the research shows

00:13:02.640 it really does have a negative impact on academic outcomes, particularly math scores. So I think

00:13:08.560 Alberta, you know, like I said, the details will matter here. I think they have an opportunity to

00:13:12.960 really be a leader on this issue by having a very clear and blanket ban, but we'll see where they go

00:13:17.680 with it. Well, and the problem of the enforcement problem is one, but it also, if teachers are the

00:13:24.160 ones that really have to enforce this, creates the patchwork. Just as with every other rule in school,

00:13:29.360 some teachers are more lenient than others. Some will turn a blind eye. I had some teachers where

00:13:33.680 you could wear the hat in the classroom, others, you could chew gum. So you're going to see that

00:13:37.440 same dynamic here. And all of a sudden, as you mentioned, you're not even seeing this blanket

00:13:41.600 ban in action. Yeah, well, exactly. And I mean, look, I'm, you know, I don't think that at the Fraser

00:13:46.880 Institute, we are quick to say, oh, we need government to ban all of these different things. But,

00:13:52.880 but ultimately the research on this really is just so clear in terms of student academic outcomes,

00:13:58.400 but also mental health. There's cyber bullying that goes on through the day at schools. It's

00:14:02.240 extremely distracting for kids. It impacts their ability to socialize face to face. It impacts their

00:14:07.520 ability to, to not be distracted, to actually focus in class and academic achievement, student

00:14:14.400 success. Like this is what schools are for. So we do ban things in schools. And of course, this is

00:14:19.200 government policy for government schools. There are already independent schools and charter schools in

00:14:23.760 Alberta that are leading on this issue. They've already implemented their own policies to ban phones

00:14:29.680 in the classroom. And they're doing so quite successfully. That doesn't mean that there needs

00:14:33.680 to be sort of a ban on technology unless a school wants to go in that direction, because that's sort

00:14:37.760 of the approach that they're offering. But you can still be innovative and leave room for kids

00:14:42.880 learning about technology without that really deep digital distraction. And as you say, that patchwork

00:14:49.040 approach where teachers are having to take so much time out of their day to nag and surveil, 0.71

00:14:53.920 and then some teachers are not doing it because they've thrown up their hands and they've said,

00:14:57.520 I can't enforce this if I'm not backed up by a clear government policy that I can say, look,

00:15:02.400 it's out of my hands. It's not my decision. We don't bring drugs to school. We don't bring weapons

00:15:06.480 to school. We don't bring our smartphones into the classroom. And that's just how it is. So I do think

00:15:10.640 that in this case, you know, there are certain things we ban at school and smartphones should be one of them.

00:15:14.720 All right. Well, great stuff as always, Paige McPherson. Thank you so much for coming on today.

00:15:19.200 Thank you. Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:15:22.880 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - June 24, 2024

Canadian parents reject biased teaching in K-12 classrooms

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