Juno News - Cancelling Keystone is bad for the economy and the environment

00:00:01.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:08.840 Justin Trudeau and Vice President Kamala Harris yesterday had their first official conversation.

00:00:14.420 They spoke about diversity and inclusion. They spoke about climate change.

00:00:18.840 They spoke about all sorts of things, even online hate, but not the giant cancellation of the Keystone XL pipeline,

00:00:26.760 which is jeopardizing jobs in both of the leaders' countries and costing billions of dollars.

00:00:32.520 The Keystone XL pipeline apparently no longer a priority, which makes me wonder who is speaking up for the Alberta jobs,

00:00:39.940 the Saskatchewan jobs, the effect of the Canadian economy. Very few people at the federal level.

00:00:45.460 One man who has always spoken up about these things and the importance of the Canadian energy sector

00:00:50.220 is Michael Binion, the Executive Director of the Modern Miracle Network, who joins me now.

00:00:55.480 Michael, good to talk to you. Thanks for coming on today.

00:00:58.100 Oh, it's my pleasure, Andrew.

00:00:59.340 You know, one of the things that I find to be the most upsetting about this is that

00:01:03.000 we saw the federal government prepare to move mountains when Quebec jobs were in jeopardy

00:01:07.820 with SNC-Lavalin a couple of years ago.

00:01:10.240 But when we talk about the oil sector, which is not just Alberta, but it is a national sector,

00:01:15.480 very few people advocating for Canadian jobs in this area.

00:01:19.220 Yes. Yeah, I mean, of course, we do have a government in Alberta that does advocate for that

00:01:26.160 and others across the country. But certainly our federal government is, you know, I think

00:01:34.300 we've heard the Prime Minister talk about the Great Reset. And I noticed in the readout from

00:01:39.420 the or from the summary of the conversation with the Vice President that they explicitly talked

00:01:43.640 about Build Back Better. So, you know, both Build Back Better and Great Reset slogans include

00:01:49.600 a, you know, include a, you know, leave it in the ground component and switching to other

00:01:55.880 forms of energy.

00:01:57.260 One thing that I find just the most bizarre about the Keystone cancellation, which was

00:02:01.960 done by executive order from Joe Biden on his first day in office as president, is that

00:02:07.120 this wasn't actually about some idea, some project that was still stuck in R&D. This

00:02:13.420 was construction already began and the cross-border section, which is arguably the most contentious

00:02:18.940 section of the pipeline, literally in the ground.

00:02:22.780 Yeah, you know, the one thing, and of course, we haven't seen from the Prime Minister bringing

00:02:30.200 up either the legal side of this, which is, you know, there was an approval given, there

00:02:36.920 was a permit and people in good faith on both sides of the borders, the Canadian company,

00:02:41.300 in particular TC Energy, and the government of Alberta, you know, all relied on the agreement

00:02:46.400 of the US government. So there's that one side. The other thing we haven't seen from the Prime

00:02:51.540 Minister is a defense of our environmental record. I mean, a lot has changed since the

00:02:57.940 Vice President was, or since the President was last Vice President and last in office. I mean,

00:03:01.780 that was, you know, four years ago plus. And it's incredible, the environmental progress that's been

00:03:09.760 made, you know, on that pipeline in particular, in the industry in general. And our Prime Minister,

00:03:14.480 as I said, didn't speak up for us on the, just a second, there was an agreement here,

00:03:18.220 and how can you cancel it? Not just that there was an agreement, we've already put billions of

00:03:23.700 dollars into construction under that agreement. How can you do that just under a rule of law and rule of

00:03:28.940 international law? You know, our NAFTA agreements, our former NAFTA agreements, I think, still apply

00:03:34.360 to some of this. And on the other side, just a second, why would you want to do it? We've got

00:03:40.100 best in the world environmental performance here. Yeah, and that's, I think, the most disingenuous

00:03:45.300 part of this, is that the narrative that's been put forward by the Biden administration,

00:03:49.640 by a lot of the people that have been very anti-pipeline, is that you get pipelines or you get

00:03:55.160 environmental policy, and that the two are inherently contradictory, which I've never

00:03:59.820 quite understood, because ending a pipeline does not reduce demand on oil, it just reduces supply.

00:04:06.260 But the supply has got to get there some other way. So you see tankers, you see rail, you see

00:04:10.800 other means of transporting oil that are less environmentally sound than a pipeline.

00:04:15.800 So we know that there's more to the motivations of people. When you do see best in the world

00:04:25.380 environmental performance, incredible progress on emissions intensity, a pipeline for the first

00:04:32.480 pipeline, I think that was going to use 100% renewable energy to run the pipeline. I mean,

00:04:37.060 this would have been a world leading example of low emissions pipeline. I mean, all of the

00:04:45.780 people really did care about transitioning our energy systems globally to something better

00:04:53.440 in the future, they would want that. They would be celebrating what Canadians are doing as best

00:05:00.340 in the world environmental performance, reducing emissions, and not taking the best in the world

00:05:06.420 off the market, only so the worst in the world can sell more. And the net effect can only be more

00:05:11.980 emissions. So how can they possibly, where's the logic if we're doing this to reduce environmental

00:05:18.320 impacts, but the impact of this is going to actually be increased global environmental impacts.

00:05:25.240 Yeah, and I guess that's where even the narrative that they put forward as being the justification for

00:05:30.200 this doesn't really hold water. But at the very least, we're talking about a level of employment

00:05:36.320 that is desperately needed right now. I mean, this is now a government signing a death warrant for jobs

00:05:41.620 at a time when private sector jobs are already facing immense strain because of the COVID pandemic.

00:05:49.140 Yeah, and I think we see this from the Trudeau government too. I really had thought when the,

00:05:55.980 you know, with the pandemic crisis, which has affected all of us so much, right?

00:06:00.120 The, the, we would see a return to pragmatism. What's the, what's the best way to solve the,

00:06:08.600 you know, the pandemic crisis in the short term, but also to help people get back to work? I mean,

00:06:14.160 this is, you know, families across, across the country who've, who've been, who've been hurt,

00:06:18.840 and many of them, many of them losing life savings, et cetera. So let's, let's, how do we get them back

00:06:24.560 to work? And instead of a return to pragmatism, it seemed to be, what a great opportunity to double

00:06:29.780 down on ideology. And what a great opportunity for us to convince people to, to, to, to destroy an

00:06:38.680 industry, to destroy a whole sector of jobs. So it's, it's, it's a, it's a surprise, surprise. I would,

00:06:45.500 I would go so far as to say I was a little bit shocked even that we didn't see a return to pragmatic,

00:06:49.120 a pragmatic approach to, and, and have Canadians all come together. Let's solve this crisis together.

00:06:55.240 And that's, and, and, you know, we've talked about it. We're all in this together. I mean,

00:06:58.200 people made that we're all in this together. Well, if we're all in this together, why are we

00:07:02.000 destroying an industry with world leading performance or working together with the U S 0.71

00:07:06.400 government to destroy an industry with the world leading performance makes, makes no sense, but it is

00:07:11.040 an example of, you know, ideology over, over pragmatism. When you say ideology though, that is, I think,

00:07:16.760 very telling because this is not just against pipelines, but it's actually a fundamental rejection

00:07:23.040 of oil as a source of energy, but they don't have an alternative. I mean, even the renewables,

00:07:28.960 they talk about like, Oh, well, solar and wind. I mean, these are not things that are capable of doing

00:07:34.320 what oil and gas are. So is there actually a, what comes next to the activists that are trying to go

00:07:41.140 after pipelines? Yeah. Well, I, I, I guess I look at them and say, well, would it be possible for

00:07:47.340 one country, you know, Germany, Denmark, Canada, you know, one of the, one of the rich G7 or OECD

00:07:52.980 countries say, well, we're going to go off oil as a demonstration to the world of an ideology.

00:07:58.460 So I mean, so, okay, well that, that, that seems like maybe that's possible, but if we're looking at

00:08:04.020 this as a, that we truly look at this, we've got a global issue of, of, of emissions and we've got a

00:08:09.440 global issue of population growth and all of the, all of the impacts that that's, that has on our

00:08:13.880 environment, how, how do we manage that better globally? Well, then this makes absolutely no sense

00:08:18.900 whatsoever. You know, our industry in Canada, you know, are, are coming up with real world solutions

00:08:26.640 that will make the global problem better. And we have a government saying, no, we just want to see

00:08:34.000 lower emissions in Canada. We don't, we don't care if that would cause higher emissions globally.

00:08:38.500 We just want lower emissions in Canada. I wrote a paper on this, you know, effect called carbon

00:08:43.020 leakage when, and, you know, very simply carbon leakage is when, you know, your policies at home

00:08:49.760 reduce emissions here, but the net effect is you increase, you actually just move them somewhere

00:08:54.680 else and the emissions go up. So it's also referred to as a green paradox, but Canada's living it.

00:09:00.380 We're, we're, we're implementing policies like our, our seen, seen in cooperation with the Americans on

00:09:07.580 cancelling this pipeline. We're implementing policies here that may reduce emissions here,

00:09:13.420 but they will cause global emissions to on a net basis go up. Because as you mentioned,

00:09:18.340 we're going to, that oil is going to be replaced by someone. The, the U S refineries in that part

00:09:23.160 of the world will, uh, their other two options are Mexico and Venezuela. Does, is there anybody that

00:09:28.180 thinks that the environmental performance of Mexico and Venezuela is better than ours?

00:09:31.600 Yeah, you raise, uh, I think a really important point there. And it is interesting because we,

00:09:35.820 we, we hear all the time that, you know what, we can't have local solutions to climate change and

00:09:40.580 emissions because these are global problems. It's a global phenomena, but the reality is that

00:09:46.340 countries are competing with each other, even within countries, states are competing with other

00:09:50.200 states. Provinces are competing with other provinces to be competitive. So if a country does do this

00:09:56.120 whole utopian idea, take the Paris climate agreement and, and fall, fall, follow through with those

00:10:01.740 plans and, and go above and beyond, all that really does is allow for someone else to be the

00:10:06.840 beneficiary of these jobs. And it's not to say that countries should do nothing, but I think there

00:10:10.980 needs to be a lot more celebration of the point that you've raised, Michael, which is how much the

00:10:15.240 private sector has already advanced on these issues, uh, much quicker than I would add many governments

00:10:21.120 have. Yeah. I, you know, I think that that's exactly right. And you know what I would say as

00:10:28.180 well is, I mean, I think people in industry and I, and I'll count myself, you know, among those people,

00:10:32.540 but you know, some of the bigger companies, Suncor, CNRL, et cetera, I think that they have really

00:10:37.880 embraced this idea that we do need to transition our energy systems, but on a realistic basis, looking

00:10:43.540 at the global problem of supplying global energy to a growing population, they've realized that that

00:10:48.560 future energy mix is going to include hydrocarbons and which is not to say we should be against

00:10:53.160 wind, right? You know, right energy in its right place. In some places that's wind. In some places

00:10:57.720 it's hydro, nuclear, uh, solar. And, and as technology changes, the right energy in its right place will

00:11:03.680 change as well. But, you know, I think a lot of people are recognizing that solar and wind, you know,

00:11:09.140 the technology is advancing quickly. We're all hearing about that all the time. What seems to be going

00:11:14.160 unnoticed is that I think that oil and gas industry is innovating even faster. You know,

00:11:19.120 we're, we're under pressure to provide, you know, a product that's, that people have come to rely on.

00:11:24.100 It's, I think, I think an excellent product from its, from its just physical components and what it

00:11:29.760 can do for whether making plastics for hospitals or, or compact energy for transportation. But we've

00:11:36.020 been making unbelievable progress on reducing the emissions. And, and I don't, I don't want to,

00:11:41.980 I don't want to ramble on here, but the other thing it's not, people are not talking about is the,

00:11:46.380 the, some of the advances on the consumption side. So I'll make a little bit of a, um, a bold statement

00:11:53.340 just for effect here, but it's possible that oil and gas is closer to zero emissions and solar and

00:11:58.540 wind. Now I'll explain that point because it's a bit of a bold statement, but the reason for that

00:12:03.340 is that we're getting close to being able to capture carbon. We're, we're finding ways to use CO2 as,

00:12:08.940 as a feedstock for other products. So, uh, you know, um, the company, my company and some other

00:12:15.100 companies are getting close to zero emissions production. So, I mean, that's a whole, I've

00:12:19.660 opened up a whole can of worms there, Andrew, and I don't want to ramble on, but, uh, I think people

00:12:24.140 are not noticing just how amazing of solutions the private sector is coming up to, uh, coming up with,

00:12:31.100 and, and I, and I'm getting back to the point of ideology. I sometimes think that the people who are

00:12:35.980 doing this for ideological reasons only want government solutions and, and in fact are unhappy

00:12:41.740 with the fact that the private sector is coming up with solutions and maybe even better ones.

00:12:45.900 Yeah. Because I know that if I were to bring up the point that you just raised about some of these

00:12:50.460 innovations, people are going to discount it and not even want to hear it because, oh, it's coming

00:12:54.140 from an oil and gas company. And I I've already seen just the comparisons that people make between

00:12:58.780 oil and gas companies and, and others, just these big evil corporate overlords on these. But,

00:13:03.260 but the reality is, uh, private sector solutions should be encouraged because

00:13:07.900 the argument for a government response is only if a response can't come from anywhere else.

00:13:14.460 Right. Well, I mean, what, what, you know, who, who's shocked that, that the private sector,

00:13:19.580 if properly motivated, and of course that goes to what you said, some of the opponents say, but

00:13:24.220 if properly motivated, who's shocked that the, that the market and private enterprise

00:13:28.460 is better at coming up with technical solutions and for, for problems than the government is like,

00:13:33.900 who's shocked by that? Hopefully almost no one. Right. The question comes down to can, you know,

00:13:38.780 is, is, is the private sector actually properly motivated? And, and, you know, the, the people you

00:13:43.740 refer to are saying, well, you know, you guys only care about making profits. So why would you care

00:13:47.660 about the environment? But I, you know, I, I would make two points there. One is that,

00:13:52.860 you know, people, the people that work in our industry, you know, live, you know,

00:13:57.660 there's 800,000 people, 800,000 families across the country that, that rely on the oil and gas

00:14:03.980 industry, either for a direct job or an indirect job. And, you know, these people live across the

00:14:08.940 country. They're people just like you, me, people listening to this show, they live in, they live in

00:14:14.140 neighborhoods with us. So why would we think those people don't care about the environment just as

00:14:19.180 much as you do? And, and, and I mean, these people work in our companies, I know them,

00:14:23.420 of course they do. You know, they love to go hiking on the weekends too. So, but the other,

00:14:28.380 the other point is, is that it's, I think it's become quite clear and I, and I want to give some

00:14:32.380 credit to the environmental movement here. And, and, and, and you can distinguish in the environmental

00:14:37.900 movement, there's those people who are, you know, I think genuine, and I think there's those people

00:14:42.540 who are only caring about ideology, but, but there's been a lot of good people in environmental

00:14:46.860 movement who've made the case for why we have to care about this. They made the case for why there

00:14:50.860 has to be taxes and regulations on some of these issues. Industry and the market are just responding

00:14:56.780 to those things. We're realizing now, if we want, you know, if we want to get investment, if we want to

00:15:01.580 be profitable in a new world of higher regulation and taxes, well, we've responded to that. I don't

00:15:06.940 think people are noticing just how fast that innovation is happening. Michael Binion,

00:15:12.620 the executive director of the Modern Miracle Network, joins me. Michael, always a pleasure.

00:15:17.020 Thanks for coming on and shining the light on this. No, no. Great. Anytime, Andrew. Thank you for,

00:15:21.500 thank you for having me. Thanks for listening to the Andrew Lawton Show.

00:15:24.540 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - February 03, 2021

Cancelling Keystone is bad for the economy and the environment

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript