Juno News - Carney Ditches U.S. Wedgetail for Swedish Surveillance Plane in Political Defence Shift

00:00:00.000 Canada is in talks with Swedish aerospace giant Saab over the purchase of an aerial

00:00:10.920 surveillance system. Prime Minister Carney made the announcement today at a defense trade show

00:00:16.740 in Ottawa. Using that new framework, we're beginning to move ahead with ambitious major

00:00:21.960 investments for our defense and security. And today is part of our steadfast commitment to

00:00:27.340 defend Canada and to protect our allies. I'm pleased to announce that Canada has entered

00:00:32.160 into negotiations to procure SABA's airborne early warning and control aircraft. By picking a non-US 0.89

00:00:40.220 company, Carney has made good on a promise to reduce Canada's reliance on American defense

00:00:46.320 suppliers, which could also undermine efforts to extend the USMCA trade deal. It could also

00:00:53.200 signify a move by Carney to cozy up to the EU. Bloomberg reported this week that Canada is close

00:01:00.540 to signing a deal to supply liquid natural gas to Germany. The LNG would be sourced from a proposed

00:01:08.640 export terminal on BC's north coast. Carney also laughed off media questions about an off-the-cuff

00:01:17.120 comment he made Monday when he appeared to take a shot at Alberta Premier, Daniel Smith.

00:01:23.540 Yeah, Prime Minister, I'm hoping you can clarify some remarks that you made after the scrum on

00:01:28.380 Monday. When you were leaving the press conference, you spoke with Minister Robertson, and I want to

00:01:32.980 read what you set out. What are you doing? This is stupid. You've got an offer and take it. That

00:01:38.120 to me sounds like you're talking about Daniel Smith and the Alberta referendum. I was talking

00:01:42.080 to Minister Robertson. Can you clarify what you were discussing at that point in time? Because

00:01:46.780 The Scrum was about what the Smith had done.

00:01:48.620 No, it was about Minister Robertson.

00:01:51.400 Look, I have, I think, I'm going to take your question about the relationship with Canada and Alberta,

00:02:02.540 Canada and the federal government and the provinces.

00:02:05.800 And we practice cooperative federalism.

00:02:08.420 We work together.

00:02:09.440 What we're focused on is making the federation work.

00:02:12.560 We're doing that with Alberta.

00:02:14.300 The off-ramp that Carney is thought to have been talking about is the court decision that quashed a citizen-led referendum on Alberta independence.

00:02:23.760 Carney also declined to offer any details about a secret security arrangement his government has signed with China.

00:02:30.660 And you said previously that there are guardrails in place in Canada against foreign interference, yet your government has not released publicly the RCMP MOU signed with Chinese police.

00:02:43.800 Why is that?

00:02:44.920 Well, we don't make a habit.

00:02:46.800 I'll answer the second part of the question first.

00:02:49.200 We don't make a habit of releasing security documents with other governments for reasons of operational security.

00:02:56.500 That is standard practice for this government, previous governments as well.

00:02:59.840 So I don't see a reason to change that in this circumstance.

00:03:04.020 So thank you for that question.

00:03:05.240 But that's our policy and that's where we stay to.

00:03:08.580 Illegal Chinese police stations in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal are suspected of harassing and monitoring Canadian citizens of Chinese descent.

00:03:18.900 Last year, Carney called China Canada's biggest security threat.

00:03:23.820 Well, Stephen Gilbo has made it official he's quitting the Liberal Caucus and stepping down as MP for Laurier-Saint-Marie.

00:03:30.800 In a letter, Gilbo said he'll pursue other ways of fighting climate change.

00:03:38.580 Our guest today is James Bazan, Conservative MP for Selkirk Interlake Eastman.

00:03:43.460 He's also the Conservative Defence Critic.

00:03:45.500 Welcome, sir.

00:03:46.740 Thanks for having me on the show.

00:03:48.560 Well, I'm sure you've seen the news now.

00:03:50.320 Canada in talks with Swedish aerospace giant Saab

00:03:54.380 over the purchase of an aerial surveillance system.

00:03:57.340 What's your take on that?

00:03:59.720 I found it fairly entertaining.

00:04:03.540 I was actually at Kansak when the Prime Minister made the announcement.

00:04:07.040 I think he made the decision, hey, I'm going to go to CANSEC and give a speech and pat myself on the back and got in front of the crowd and said, I better announce something.

00:04:15.320 And so he announced that they are entering into an agreement, but with no details.

00:04:18.960 We don't know how many of the global eyes we're buying.

00:04:22.820 We don't know when the delivery of these will actually take place.

00:04:26.520 We don't know what the cost of the taxpayer is.

00:04:29.480 And, you know, so it was very ambiguous.

00:04:32.280 So at the end of the day, it's much ado about nothing.

00:04:34.680 Well, there's also the issue of the Americans. And I have to ask whether this decision is more political than anything else. The prime minister has promised, and you know this, to basically reduce our reliance, our spending on defense suppliers from the United States.

00:04:56.700 So here we are now opting for Swedish company's surveillance system, aerial surveillance system.

00:05:04.180 And so is that an issue for you, that maybe this is more political than it is practical?

00:05:11.200 Well, what we've seen from Mark Carney and these liberals is that they've turned everything into partisanship and politics.

00:05:19.340 And every chance they got to take a shot at the United States, they do.

00:05:24.200 It's unfortunate because the Canada-U.S. relationship will survive Mark Carney and Donald Trump, and this will continue on for eons to go.

00:05:36.480 So, you know, we have to do first and foremost, we have to buy what's right for the Canadian Armed Forces, what's in the best interest of protecting our sovereignty and being a reliable ally.

00:05:47.140 Interoperability is important.

00:05:48.460 You know, I think that the other main competitor there was still using a Bombardier platform, the Global 6500.

00:05:59.860 So, you know, Montreal-based Bombardier and their world-renowned 6500-class jet liner is something that I think was going to win regardless.

00:06:14.700 You know, they ruled out some time ago about using the E7 from Boeing. So, you know, really,

00:06:22.620 we're looking at the two options. So the L3 Harris option versus a sob option. So it is, 0.70

00:06:29.580 comes down to that, you know, did they really do a competition? Not really. Did they sole sources?

00:06:35.020 It's not really that either. So at the end of the day, we got the worst of both worlds.

00:06:41.020 You know, at least with the soldiers, you've got some certainty and you've got

00:06:45.100 a timeline. We don't have that. And if they had an actual competition,

00:06:48.620 we'd know that we were getting the best of the platforms that were available.

00:06:51.820 And that wasn't really done either. And it seems to me like this was a rushed

00:06:55.340 announcement and they're trying to make the Defense Investment Agency, you know,

00:07:01.020 which is another layer of bureaucracy, trying to make it look like it's more than it is.

00:07:04.860 So, again, this is something that's a little bit of, you know, a shell game that's going on by the Liberals with no actual deliverables or increasing capability for the Canadian Armed Forces.

00:07:18.420 Yeah, I mean, there's also the question, as you mentioned, about the F-35s and where we're going to go with that.

00:07:24.320 But I'm wondering, I mean, considering the timing of firsts, we're in the midst of negotiations with the Americans over the extension of Yuzma.

00:07:33.440 And there's a danger that a decision like this, knowing how prickly they are in Washington, that this will sour relations even further.

00:07:41.780 Is that a concern for you?

00:07:43.980 Well, what we saw last week was the unfortunate decision by the United States to suspend the

00:07:50.860 Permanent Joint Board on Defense that's over 80 years old. It's the precursor to NORAD.

00:07:59.580 Although it was mainly a bilateral political organization with appointees from the Government

00:08:07.420 of Canada. You know, John McCabe is our last co-chair of that committee, along with US senators

00:08:15.500 are usually on the other side of the table. You know, it was a good place to have those discussions.

00:08:20.540 So unfortunately, because of especially the, you know, the Davos speech and the ongoing political

00:08:28.540 football that Kearney has been playing with the F-35, you know, it results in fallout. We know

00:08:35.980 that KUSMA is going to go forward with negotiations between the United States and Mexico, just like

00:08:41.820 last time we went through the NAFTA renegotiations. And Canada is going to be sitting on the sidelines

00:08:47.500 and we're going to be deal takers instead of deal makers. And so as long as the Liberals aren't

00:08:53.180 prioritizing our continental security with the Americans and not looking, you know, I don't think

00:08:59.660 the Americans in some cases care what we're buying as long as it's interoperable. And as long as we

00:09:05.340 can secure fortress North America from the incursions that we're seeing by both the Russians 0.94

00:09:13.020 and the Chinese in our Arctic and protect our maritime approaches, as well as defend against

00:09:19.940 ballistic missile threats, that to them is paramount. But what they're witnessing is a

00:09:28.320 liberal government that's more interested in political games than actually keeping our two

00:09:32.920 country safe. But I have to wonder if a decision like this, given the timing, almost seems to be

00:09:41.700 aimed at aggravating the Americans even more. I mean, this could have waited until after

00:09:47.040 negotiations over Kuzma. They could have even been used as a bargaining chip in those negotiations.

00:09:53.400 Instead, he just throws it out there now. And it makes me wonder if this pulls the rug out

00:09:58.820 from our negotiators in Washington.

00:10:02.260 What do you think?

00:10:03.940 Well, the last defense policy update

00:10:06.180 had AWACS as a future capability.

00:10:09.700 It wasn't one that we're going to acquire

00:10:11.120 in the next five to 10 years.

00:10:12.780 It was something we're going to acquire

00:10:13.740 back in the 40s.

00:10:15.720 Even if we're working on the timeline

00:10:17.880 that was originally out there,

00:10:20.240 and if that's what he's doing

00:10:21.200 is just moving up one part

00:10:22.980 of that discussion process

00:10:25.260 without running the proper competition

00:10:26.900 to ensure we get what we need and protect the Canadian taxpayer from having money, you know,

00:10:33.220 get thrown out the window for a capability that may not be in the best interest of our security.

00:10:39.220 You know, we're still talking that this would be, you know, when Carney was 1970 or when Carney

00:10:44.380 would turn 75 years old, that we'd actually get the capability. So again, it was

00:10:49.900 It's a strange time to throw this out, especially knowing that, you know, we've had some blowback from the Americans by what they've decided to do on the suspension of the permanent joint board on defense and knowing that, you know, there's ongoing aggravation.

00:11:13.120 so why keep poking the bear? And I guess at the end of the day, if this is the best platform,

00:11:20.960 show us how it's the best platform. If it's going to be done through a proper competition,

00:11:25.200 and this is the AWACS system that we need to patrol our Arctic and our maritime approaches

00:11:32.080 and have that ability to see farther out another 650 kilometers to ensure that we can deal with

00:11:41.440 any incoming threats then prove that to us first rather than making these rather you know off-handed

00:11:49.440 announcements with really at the end of the day potentially dangerous outcomes when it comes to

00:11:56.000 our bilateral relationship. Yeah last question. Carney has also spoken about strengthening ties

00:12:02.160 with Europe. We now have this other news about an LNG agreement possibly in the works between

00:12:09.840 canada and germany to a deal that would supply lng from bc to uh to germany is this the new world

00:12:18.880 order that mark carney has been talking about uh is this part of what he has been appearing to aim

00:12:26.160 at which is decoupled from the united states focus on the continent of europe is that how you see it

00:12:32.480 As, you know, Pierre Pauly said, we were quite critical of the Trudeau government when they,

00:12:40.080 four years ago, said there was no business case to sell Canadian energy products to Europe.

00:12:45.680 Germany, in very short order, when they realized that they couldn't be using Russian oil and gas,

00:12:52.160 came to Canada looking for a supply. And the Liberals shot that down. Mark Carney supported

00:12:58.560 that decision and only now because of the ongoing challenges that he's helping to create dealing

00:13:08.240 with the White House, we see them finally pivoting back to what is actually in the best interest of

00:13:15.120 Canadians of our energy sector and that there is a powerful business case for it. You know, Pierre

00:13:20.960 was in Germany just a couple of months ago and saw what they were able to accomplish in under

00:13:26.720 200 days and building a brand new LNG import terminal to fuel their economy and ensure that

00:13:34.440 their houses are heated in the wintertime. That should be Canadian LNG moving over there rather

00:13:40.880 than other competitors. And so whether we get it to them via ports on the West Coast or ports on

00:13:48.880 the East Coast, we have to get it into the European market and displace Russian oil and gas.

00:13:54.060 James Bazan, thank you so much for coming on the show. We appreciate it.

00:13:59.140 Anytime, Mark. Thanks for having me.

00:14:00.740 Our next guest is Joe Varner, senior fellow with the MacDonald-Laurier Institute.

00:14:05.400 Welcome once again, Joe.

00:14:07.240 Great to be back with you, Mark.

00:14:09.200 Well, you're aware of what the prime minister just announced, which is, I guess, negotiations now underway with Swedish aerospace giant Saab over the purchase of an aerial surveillance system.

00:14:21.280 What's your reaction to this?

00:14:24.060 Well, I guess my reaction to this is that I think that it was predictable, given the government's defense industrial strategy and the way that the prime minister has talked about pivoting away from the United States.

00:14:39.340 So you either build it at home or you build it in partnership.

00:14:43.220 And in this case, everybody's talking about Saab, but the airframe and the aircraft is actually Bombardier.

00:14:49.860 So this is kind of, if you were looking for a trophy piece for the defense industrial strategy and for the government's new procurement plans away from the United States, this would probably be it.

00:15:06.420 And what about the timing of it coming during negotiations, trade negotiations with the Americans, knowing how sensitive they are about this sort of thing?

00:15:17.080 You know, do you think it might undermine our trade talks aimed at extending KUSMA?

00:15:25.560 Yeah, I don't think that there's any doubt that this will be another speed bump in the process.

00:15:30.620 I mean, the Americans are already worked up about F-35 and with good reason.

00:15:35.300 And now the E-7 Wedgetail, which is essentially the gold standard in terms of an AWACS aircraft, has been bypassed for Saab and directed contract to Bombardier.

00:15:52.620 And could it be a finger in the eye of Trump?

00:15:56.980 I mean, he could have waited till after negotiations were completed if he wanted to do this and said he does it now.

00:16:04.700 I mean, this could also have been a bargaining chip in our negotiations to sweeten the pie for them,

00:16:11.380 to maybe encourage them to extend the trade deal, which the president has already expressed reservations about doing it.

00:16:19.500 It just, the timing of this doesn't seem to make much sense to me, given everything else that's going on.

00:16:24.940 But what do you think?

00:16:27.020 Well, I think the timing is related to a number of factors.

00:16:30.000 There's one, I am told that there was resistance in the Royal Canadian Air Force to the purchase of this AWACS aircraft.

00:16:41.820 They much preferred the Boeing E-7 Wedgetail, which has commonality in terms of airframes and spare parts with the P-8 Poseidon fleet.

00:16:54.380 so that there would be some savings there and some ease in maintaining the two different

00:17:00.460 fleets. I think that this comes on what's likely to be just ahead of a NATO decision,

00:17:11.260 probably on AWACS aircraft. It also seems to be, you know, that there's another shoe to drop and

00:17:19.020 that other shoe is going to be F-35. I have no doubt that the government is now going to

00:17:24.980 stick the Royal Canadian Air Force with two different fighter fleets, which means that

00:17:30.240 they're going to have to buy two different simulators, two different sets of spare parts,

00:17:34.500 two different training programs, maybe different logistics on runways and hangars. So this is

00:17:42.160 to be uh i think what's coming is going to be an announcement on on gripping to go with uh with uh

00:17:50.000 awax um so i think that there are a number of factors that are playing out but i don't think

00:17:56.960 it's by accident that canada's uh u.s trade minister is on his way to washington next week

00:18:04.560 to see what he can salvage out of this is it more political than practical i mean

00:18:11.040 I mean, if in fact they do move ahead with not the F-35, but the other jet, the other plane, I mean, it doesn't seem altogether practical, given, as you said, you'll have two different planes to deal with.

00:18:27.900 I mean, which leads me to question whether or not this is really about politics.

00:18:34.200 What do you think?

00:18:35.880 Well, I think it's about politics.

00:18:37.300 I think it's about moving away from the United States and moving closer to Europe and the

00:18:44.060 Prime Minister's goal to decouple trade.

00:18:47.440 But when 80% of your trade is with the United States, that's a big gamble to take.

00:18:54.000 And so right now, I think the government's gambling that there's a lot of anti-Trump

00:18:59.960 sentiment out there, and for good reason.

00:19:02.700 and much easier right now to buy this equipment than the gold standard,

00:19:09.180 which would have been the U.S., Boeing, AWACS, and the F-35.

00:19:14.640 And I think, you know, there's no doubt that the F-35 is the foremost aircraft

00:19:18.440 in the world right now in terms of fighter aircraft.

00:19:21.660 And Gripen makes a good aircraft, but it's, I think,

00:19:25.320 a four-and-a-half-generation aircraft as opposed to a fifth-generation

00:19:28.720 stealth fighter plane in F-35.

00:19:31.480 And I've said it before, I think, on your show, but in the air and at sea, second best gets you killed.

00:19:39.660 So, you know, Canadians can judge on that basis, but I don't think that saddling the Air Force with two fighter fleets is a wise idea.

00:19:51.640 And, you know, Global Eye, the Saab AWACS aircraft, is a good aircraft.

00:19:58.820 But from my understanding, it doesn't have the in-air aerial refueling capability that the Wedgetail would have, which means that it has limits in its range.

00:20:10.640 Yeah, and I take your point that this sends a signal to Europe saying, you know, we want to cozy up with you.

00:20:19.000 I mean, we know that he has ties with Europe, to Europe, that I guess he obviously wants to encourage.

00:20:25.740 He's got this kind of ongoing animosity with Trump.

00:20:29.800 And so it seems that he wants to pivot in that direction, all well and good to buy defense products from them.

00:20:39.540 But what are we going to get in return?

00:20:41.680 You know, they're going to buy more of our cars.

00:20:45.060 And then, of course, when you throw in this LNG deal, then it starts to make sense maybe in that regard,

00:20:52.040 because there was this Bloomberg story,

00:20:54.080 which I'm sure you're aware now,

00:20:56.060 that Canada and Germany are on the precipice of an LNG deal.

00:21:00.440 So all of this starts to paint a picture

00:21:02.820 about where Canada is headed, doesn't it?

00:21:05.960 Well, I think it does.

00:21:07.200 And keep in mind that the prime minister,

00:21:09.320 his first effort to diversify trade was to go to Europe,

00:21:13.740 and then it was to go to China,

00:21:15.720 because I think that he didn't get exactly what he wanted out of Europe.

00:21:18.920 and maybe right now he's got a little more leverage

00:21:22.560 and is in a better position to make a deal with the Europeans on different things.

00:21:28.380 But the fact of the matter is, from my perspective,

00:21:31.460 the Canadian forces, when they go somewhere to fight or to deter,

00:21:37.420 they tend to go to the United States.

00:21:40.200 And if you want spare parts, it's a lot easier to get spare parts

00:21:44.060 uh from your your principal ally when you're you're going into a danger zone now we can make

00:21:50.480 the argument with bombardier that you know maybe we can get those spare parts faster for the air

00:21:56.000 frame and the aircraft but uh i think that at the end of the day uh canada would have been much

00:22:02.540 better to uh marry up with the u.s options and the fact of the matter is it's not just nato it's

00:22:08.860 also NORAD. There's questions of interoperability, the questions of compatibility and upgrade of

00:22:16.840 different systems. And what happens in 10 years if the Gripen or the Global Eye runs into a glitch

00:22:27.400 and isn't upgradable? What do we do then? You know that the American systems are going to be

00:22:32.840 upgradable for 20 years. You know, we're already in a situation with the CF-18 where it's different

00:22:42.260 parts of the aircraft are not upgradable. I mean, we're flying them to the end of their life,

00:22:47.920 just like they flew the Tudors to the end of theirs. You know, the F-35 has been going on for

00:22:55.540 a long time, and it's a major impediment, I think, to Canada-US relations.

00:23:02.380 Yeah, and here we have a prime minister that could end up locking us into contracts that we can't get out of.

00:23:09.140 I mean, he could be out of power in a few years, but the fact that these contracts are not going to be signed, meaning that Canada might have to pay a huge penalty just to get out of it.

00:23:21.500 I mean, that's another aspect to this.

00:23:23.660 know if you make decisions based on political expediency that seemed to make sense at the time

00:23:31.340 because trump is president you know you end up paying dearly for it if you want to pivot out of

00:23:39.340 that you know like two years down the road last word to you keep in mind one trump's only there

00:23:46.380 for another two years and then we're probably looking at a democratic president and so you know

00:23:52.620 there's there's going to be a change in washington and is it wise to make these decisions

00:23:57.140 based on the fact that you don't like the current president of the united states it's not the first

00:24:01.660 time that canadian prime ministers and u.s presidents haven't gotten along usually they

00:24:07.820 can manage those differences but there doesn't seem to be a willingness on either part right

00:24:12.820 now to manage those differences canada's or the united states the other thing i would say

00:24:18.160 very quickly is that, you know, keep in mind that political expediency and defense procurement in

00:24:23.860 Canada has had a number of disastrous examples. You know, Sam Hughes's Ross Rifle, his secretary's

00:24:33.940 shovel shield. And then, you know, one of the biggest examples and most glaring was Jean

00:24:40.720 Gretchen using EH-101 as an election issue in 1994, saying he would cancel the program and

00:24:49.120 write zero helicopters. You know, 1998, he has to buy a fleet of 50 in EH-101s named the Cormorant.

00:24:57.260 And then we got stuck with the Cyclone. So the government wasn't embarrassed again

00:25:04.340 on having to buy EH-101,

00:25:08.020 and the cyclone has been a very problematic fleet for Canada.

00:25:12.580 I think it has a lot of issues with spare parts and maintenance.

00:25:17.200 It's had issues with its mission system,

00:25:20.520 and the fact of the matter is EH-101 would have been a better choice.

00:25:24.300 But for political expediency,

00:25:26.940 the government of the day picked the cyclone,

00:25:32.560 And we're in the same situation, the same liberal playbook as in 1994 with the F-35.

00:25:42.620 And, you know, that decision, I'm sure, is going to come back to haunt us the same way that the Cyclone fleet has.

00:25:49.420 Joe Varner, thank you so much for coming on the show.

00:25:51.620 We appreciate it as always.

00:25:53.480 Thank you, sir.

00:25:54.420 If you enjoyed this show, consider supporting great independent journalism by becoming a premier member of Juno News.

00:26:00.220 please go to junonews.com backslash straight up you can find the link below helps us do what we

00:26:06.680 do thank you so much we'll see you next time

Juno News - May 28, 2026

Carney Ditches U.S. Wedgetail for Swedish Surveillance Plane in Political Defence Shift

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript