Juno News - December 29, 2025Carney's 'Green' Agenda still lurking？
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Summary
Chris Sims talks with Dr. John Robson about carbon taxes and why they are bad for the economy and the planet. Chris Sims is the Alberta Director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and host of the show The Fighter with Chris Sims.
Transcript
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Welcome to The Fighter with Chris Sims. I am Chris Sims. I'm the Alberta Director for the
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Canadian Taxpayers Federation. Thank you for making us a part of your week. This is, of course,
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a very special time of year where folks are celebrating Christmas and Hanukkah and hopefully
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getting together with their loved ones and reflecting on the year. We have a very nice
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show for you coming up, speaking with one of my longtime dear friends, Dr. John Robson. If you
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have not heard Dr. Robson talk about Charles Dickens, you're missing out. Go find that stuff
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on YouTube. We are going to be speaking with Dr. Robson about things like carbon taxes. Where
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exactly are they? How much are we paying? Yes, the consumer carbon tax is gone, but boy, oh boy,
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Prime Minister Mark Carney seems really happy with his industrial carbon tax. Alberta seems to be the
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first test kid. So who's going to be next with a six times higher industrial carbon tax? And why are
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we doing all this anyway? And you have to stick around for this. I can't believe I'm saying this
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out loud, but Hollywood made a movie about George Orwell's animal farm, but the capitalists are the
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bad guys. I kid you not. I have to ask Dr. Robson about that because he has an amazingly funny take
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on it. But first, let's do a quick check in with our sponsor. Look, folks, it's time to modernize
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unsmoke.ca. Okay. As promised, joining me now is Dr. John Robson. He is with the Climate Discussion
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Nexus, and he is the kind of guy that is able to do a deep dive, a historical deep dive.
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On all sorts of topics. If you have not watched his documentary on the Magna Carta,
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that is a banger. You have to watch that over Christmas. Thank you so much for joining us
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today. Always a pleasure. All right. First off, before we get through our fun with George Orwell's
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story being mangled by Hollywood, I had to get down to brass tacks when it comes to carbon taxes.
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I was very happy, frankly, to see the consumer carbon tax gone. I don't know what the price of gas is
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out your way in Ottawa, but it's around 20 cents cheaper per liter here than it was this time last
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year. That's because the consumer carbon tax came. But this industrial carbon tax looks like it's
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gearing up to be a monster. What's your take on this right now?
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It's a peculiar situation because the federal government has realized that a lot of its climate
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policies are really bad for growth. And it's realized that Canada has a productivity crisis.
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I think they genuinely do know both these things. But the way their minds work, you know,
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the Davos man, what you do is you find some elaborate polysyllables and you play this glass
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bead game where you create climate competitiveness. So you have the same policies you always had with
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the same ill effects, but suddenly it's good instead. And the world just can't wait to buy
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our products because we're climate competitive. And if you look at things like our actual greenhouse
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gas emissions, we haven't accomplished much of anything. As Stéphane Guilbault congratulated
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himself on historic measures as though he'd achieved something historic or indeed anything
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at all. But what we have done is we've driven up the price of energy. And, you know, people have this
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terrible tendency to treat the economy as though it's a machine. I'm not a big fan of mathematical
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economics for this reason. You can tally up numbers about employment and productivity per hour.
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People don't realize that Canada's oil and gas industry is fantastically more productive per
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labor hour than almost any other part of the economy. But what you need to do is you need to
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look out the window and ask yourself, what would my life be like if I was out there instead of in here?
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Or you think you mentioned Dickens, so Bob Cratchit, right? Bob Cratchit doesn't have a coat.
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He can't afford a coat because Scrooge is such a miser. His house is not well insulated.
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They can't afford coal. He freezes at the office. He freezes at home. No wonder his kid is sick.
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And then you look around and the lights are on. The heat is on. You have technology or you
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wouldn't be watching this program. You have clothes, all of this stuff. The food that you
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have was grown and transported with hydrocarbon energy. Everything you have, you owe to what
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Michael Binion calls a modern miracle. And the government systematically makes it harder to get
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and that you must sacrifice more to have it. And then wonders why our living standards are
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are sinking. And then they bring in, you know, more and more people. We can't build houses for
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us if that would fix it because it does things to the numerical calculations of GDP.
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But our lives are built on affordable, reliable energy. Otherwise, we really would be starving in
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the dark. We would have terrible diseases because we'd be cold and hungry. And when you're cold and
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So you need to think about it in terms of this isn't a sector of the economy. It's the foundation
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of the economy. It's not about exports. It's about us having food and shelter and warmth and clothing
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and good things. And the government is deliberately trying to make it harder for us to have all those
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things and telling us it's making us better off and happier. And it's just such a horrendous mistake.
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I mean, you could get into other things. You know, William Nordhaus wrote about carbon taxes,
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Nobel Prize winner. And he said they're the best way to punish people for having energy,
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provided you get rid of all the regulations and just go with a clear, even on everything carbon
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tax. And that, of course, the consumer tax they got rid of because it was unpopular and they are
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unprincipled as well as devious. But at the same time, underneath their unprincipledness,
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they're principled. They really think they're going to get rid of oil and gas and coal and that we're
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somehow going to live on windmills and unicorn power. And so they're going to do it in the back
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door in inefficient ways. And then they're going to call it carbon competitiveness or climate
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competitiveness as if that made it all not hurt. But it doesn't. These are terrible policies. We
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could have higher living standards, better prospects for young people, more dynamic housing
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industry, cheaper food. I mean, also that would have supply management. You could have all this stuff
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if you just embrace the miracle of hydrocarbons. But then the problem is they think plant food is
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poison. They go on talking about carbon pollution as though smokestacks were billowing black yuck that
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was laying waste to the wheat and the corn and the trees instead of causing them to grow bigger and
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stronger and happier. So, you know, there's no good way to do a bad thing. And they've picked a bad way
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to do it. And then you look again, you look at those productivity numbers, income per capita,
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you compare us against the United States, which is not like the land of good policy these days,
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especially. But we're still falling behind. Europe is destroying itself. And all over the notion
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that carbon dioxide kills plants and animals, which, you know, greenhouse owners, this is well
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known, they pump it in in large amounts. It's just bizarre. The earth is in a carbon famine. CO2 levels
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in the atmosphere are at prehistoric lows, right? They're way below where they used to be in the age of the
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dinosaurs. And you look at the age of the dinosaurs. Was there runaway heating? Was the landscape on
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fire? Or were there plants and animals everywhere? Fantastic perfusion of large and dynamic life
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forms. So that's where we are with carbon taxes, a bad idea implemented in a bad way, and then
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excused with bad rhetoric. Now I'm wondering what triceratops steak would taste like. Sorry,
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if it would taste like alligator. And since it's the holiday season, let me give you a fascinating
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fact about triceratops and all the horned dinosaurs. They appeared at the same time as
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flowering plants. It's kind of a symbiosis where the plants are growing and advertising their
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presence and the dinosaurs are rushing over, gobbling them up and then dunging out the seeds
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and everybody wins. Like that's what I call nature happiness. But if you got to those levels of
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carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, according to the Mark Carney's of this world, supposed sages,
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we'd all be dead. I mean, it just, it has nothing to do with the actual history of the earth. That's
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one of the things they know nothing about history. They do not understand that in warm periods,
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species proliferate. And in cold periods, life shrivels and huddles. Look at the last glacial
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maximum. You know, CO2 got down to 180 parts per million. That's 30 parts per million above the
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death of all C3 plants. And, you know, vast quantities of the earth, apparently so many plants died that the
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planet got so dusty that it started to absorb heat again. Like that's your dream world. And your
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nightmare world is the Eocene. It's, it's astonishingly ignorant.
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You mentioned Prime Minister Mark Carney. I'm old enough to actually, when I was in high school,
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when junior high school, our program was to survive the coming ice age. And they all meant it. Like it
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was an earnest thing everybody was worried about. My project got an A. But I wanted to get back to
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Prime Minister Mark Carney. I haven't actually asked you about this. So I actually don't know
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what you're going to say. What was your take on this memorandum of understanding that was signed
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between Alberta Premier Daniel Smith, who I know wants to build pipelines, wants to get rid of the
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production cap, wants to get rid of the green energy regulations. Like she wants this so much. And then I
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saw Carney fly in, sign an agreement, and then gloat to the media that, hey, your carbon tax is going to
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be six times higher now. Like, where do you think this is going?
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I don't really think it's going anywhere. Again, this is the Davos man thing, right?
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They have this memorandum of understanding. That's a plan to have a plan for a plan to plan.
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There's no understanding there. There's no path forward. Nobody knows how they're going to overcome
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Aboriginal opposition. Nobody knows how they're going to overcome provincial opposition. And Carney's
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good at this polysyllabic evasions that makes it feel as though it's all okay. And you kind of
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doze off. And Danielle Smith, you know, she's such a good radio host. But the trouble with her as a
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politician is that she just doesn't have much spine. I mean, I've had this discussion with her over the
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years. I said, you can't fight the policy on climate unless you fight the science. And she's,
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oh, John, we lost that debate. So no, you didn't. You never had it. You never had the nerve to say
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they're wrong about there being a manmade crisis. They're wrong about the runaway effects. The models
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take a small warming effect from CO2, and they amplify it through these alleged feedback mechanisms
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that haven't been substantiated experimentally and empirically seem not to exist. But you never
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were willing to stand up and take the heat for saying no, there is no 97% consensus. There's a great
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deal of debate and discussion here. But it's clear that we don't have a climate crisis. And therefore,
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we don't need emergency measures to fight it. And then she tries to rally around the white flag.
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And this is what you get. Fortunately, with Carney, what you get is vapor. It's not even congealed fog.
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And therefore, you know, sort of nothing will happen. But that means no pipelines will happen
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either. There's no way they're going to build a pipeline. Nobody wants to build one. Who in their
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right mind would invest in this country when it takes one Aboriginal band possibly conjured up by an
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American foundation in a major city rather than actually being something that exists in reality
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out there. And you're paralyzed. And Mark Carney's not going to run over these people because he just
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bloviates. But you look at Mark Carney's career. What has he ever actually really done? He was a
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lousy governor of the Bank of England. As governor of Bank of Canada, he bailed early and took credit for
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things he didn't do. His G fans has collapsed. His austerity and investment budget produced neither
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austerity nor investment. He's just sly and evasive and very, very pleased with himself. He has the kind
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of skills that get you somewhere in Davos world. But in the practical world of governing, he's a hopeless
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In the premier's defense, she did dig her heels in with the Alberta Teachers Union, which was no
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small task. Told them to get back to work, refused to hand over two billion extra dollars and no signing
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bonus. She's also standing up for serious family issues here in Alberta, which is not my wheelhouse.
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But on this issue of the MOU and industrial carbon taxes, we just had a poll out like today that shows
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the vast majority of Canadians believe that an industrial carbon tax on businesses, surprise,
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is going to trickle down to us. It's going to cost regular Canadians more money. To me, that seems like
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a no-brainer because, of course, businesses can't eat that cost. If they continue to do business in
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Canada, they will simply pass that cost on down to us. And here we are back to Bob Cratchit not being
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able to afford heat for his home. I wanted to shift federally. So we've got this dance going on
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right now with Premier Smith, wanting all this stuff like pipelines and getting rid of the energy
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cap and believing the prime minister, I think, when it comes to things like pipelines. I'm much more
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cynical. I don't see that happening. I hope I'm wrong. I really hope I'm wrong. But like, I've read
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this book many times. And Mark Carney seemed pretty darn serious when he was writing about how much he
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loves carbon taxes, and how he views things like natural gas power plants as stranded assets in his
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envisioned future. What happens? Yeah, exactly. Go ahead, John. Well, he knows how to string these
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words together. I call it the glass bead game by the Herman Hesse. And it all glitters and it
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impresses the kind of people he was making a career with. But none of it connects with reality.
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And this is how he thinks, right? Again, I frequently insist it's not about plots and hoaxes.
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What you see is what you get. If you want to know Mark Carney's mindset, you read that book.
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So yeah, he's really into carbon taxes, but he also thinks they'll make us rich.
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And if he's wrong about that, there's no plan B.
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There is no plan B. What does this do to Pierre Paulyov as leader of the opposition? I saw some polls the
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other day. It looks like his numbers are still staying steady and strong. In my opinion, that's
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because the world is not more affordable. Suddenly, we aren't being able to afford food and houses and
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things like heat for our homes. People are worried about all this stuff still, even though the person
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has changed as the prime minister. What does this current issue do to Pierre Paulyov's message?
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So for example, I think Carney came to Alberta, and he's using us as the first test kit. We're the first
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guinea pig of his huge cranked up industrial carbon tax. He's going to set his sights probably
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on Saskatchewan next. What does this do to Pierre's messaging about things like no carbon taxes?
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I think it helps him. I mean, I think there's a lot to admire about Pierre Paulyov, but I also,
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I wish he would grow up because there is this sort of snide juvenile campus activist air about him
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that's holding him back, right? His best friend in the world is Mark Carney and his worst enemy is
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Pierre Paulyov. He needs to combine the slogans with a capacity to talk like an adult. He's got
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to show some gravitas if he's got some, and if he doesn't, well, he better try and find some
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somewhere, which is easier said than done, I realize. But the thing is that people, Jay Budziszewski
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once said about slippery slopes, he was like, oh, you know, people aren't that logical. And Budziszewski
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said they are, they're just logical slowly. And it can be very frustrating sometimes. But in the end,
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if the government says it's going to fix the cost of living and it doesn't fix the cost of living,
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people will stop believing it and they will start voting for somebody else. And again, sometimes you
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get situations where the incumbents are terrible and the alternative is terrible and people vote for
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a terrible alternative because no one will give them a sensible alternative. But if Pierre Paulyov
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could combine his political skills, again, with a certain capacity to be the adult in the room,
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because really, no, but Carney's big pitches, he's the adult in the room, unlike that silly Justin Trudeau.
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And the thing is that Carney, still a lot of people feel that he must be an adult because he has this
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ponderous demeanor and those nice suits and he doesn't flash socks at us. But in many ways, he's not a
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responsible person, just a chancer. But Pierre Paulyov doesn't feel responsible. And that's
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where he's got to change. I remember to sidetrack or apparently sidetrack, Jordan Peterson, you know,
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the mystery of Jordan Peterson is this. He was saying things that a lot of other people had said
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and had said quite well. And yet Peterson connected in a way that left many of us gaping with admiration
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and struggling to oppress envy. And one of the reasons why I think is that Jordan Peterson was
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obviously serious. He had acquired his knowledge the old fashioned way with blood, toil, sweat and
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tears. The suffering was etched on his face. And there was nothing flip about Jordan Peterson,
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even when he was being clever properly, you know, dealing with an argument by demolishing it deftly.
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You always felt that this man had paid for his knowledge. And Pierre Paulyov does not feel like
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he's paid his dues. And I think that's a big PR problem because it's a substantive problem.
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You know, I remember John Peppel saying it was very strange. People were outraged at Donald Trump
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because he was unfit for office. But when Justin Trudeau came along and was obviously unfit for office
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and Peppel called him, he was obviously vain and silly. And this is true. He was vain and silly.
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And eventually caught up with him because people are logical slowly. But Paulyov gives the impression
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to some extent of being the same, that those slogans come out so readily because that's what's in his
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brain. And for a guy who supposedly cut his teeth on Friedman and Hayek, he ought to be able to talk to
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us more like Jordan Peterson. And I think that he needs to do that because we need adults. One of the
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things when you look at Canadian public policy and all the goofy stuff that's going on, even just,
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you know, Blacklock's recently asked for details on those alleged bodies at the Kamloops school and
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the department just sealed everything up. And it's like, that's such a juvenile thing to do. But we
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live in a very juvenile world. And I think that creates an opportunity for adult leadership. And
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it doesn't mean you have to be boring. It doesn't mean you have to lose the clever slogans. Adults can
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have good slogans. But you've got to feel like they arose organically from serious, comprehensive and
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reliable thinking about things. And that's, that's what Polyev has to bring us. And again, he should say
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there's no climate crisis, because you either have a climate crisis, and you deal with it, or else you
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haven't got a climate crisis, and you don't. Will he challenge the science? Will he come out and say, there's
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no man-made climate crisis? I don't believe that thing exists.
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I wanted to leave on a fun note, or a sad note, depending on how you want to put it. I think you and I
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first met many years ago, when I had Atlas Shrugged on my desk. And we had a nice big conversation about
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things like Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, and then we moved on to George Orwell, 1984, Animal Farm.
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For folks who don't know, and we have some young people watching, Animal Farm was a parable. It was a
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very short novel that was a very clear repudiation of Stalinist Soviet Russia. It was taking aim at
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communism very clearly, all through the book. And it's only, I think, goodness, is it what, even 200
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pages? It's a short book. The message here was that collectivism and having mass government control
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was bad, okay? And he just put it in the setting of a farmyard. So there's, you know, basically puppets
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of pigs and horses and sheep talking to each other. What blew my mind, John, and we're going to play a
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clip of it here in a second, is that Hollywood has come out with an animated movie actually meant
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for adults. It says so, that it's, you know, over 16 or whatever. And guess what? It's the capitalists
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I want that farm. We should move into the farmhouse. So the humans know we're in charge.
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You are about to become my new best friend. Pigs and humans working together. I like the optics.
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Oh, we love the optics. What are optics? I think it's a kind of seafood.
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Okay. So that tall, angular looking woman with the gray hair, she looks like the bad wife from
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Rocky IV. But she was a Soviet. In this one, she's a big, bad corporate capitalist person.
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What's your take on this? Is this just one of those things we should let go and quit fixating on?
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Oh, absolutely not. I mean, for one thing, you know, the go woke, go broke, right? Hollywood can't
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make stories anymore because they have bought into this absolutely sterile worldview. But,
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and again, speaking of gravitas, because Orwell had been a communist. He fought in the Spanish
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civil war on the side of the communists. He came by his knowledge, honestly, and the pain. He
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understood these betrayed dreams. And there's, I wanted to quote a line from GK Chesterton. He said,
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the truth is that all feeble spirits naturally live in the future because it is featureless. It
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is a soft job. You can make it what you like. The next age is blank and I can paint it freely with my
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favorite color. It requires real courage to face the past because the past is full of facts which
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cannot be got over, of men certainly wiser than we and of things done which we could not do. And so
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they take a masterpiece like Animal Farm in which the animals stage a revolution against the evil
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oppressors and create basically the Soviet Union. And then it turns out to be even more oppressive,
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a betrayal of all their hopes, a very stratified society that famous all animals are equal, but
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some are more equal than others. And in Hollywood, they can't even understand what was being said,
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let alone why. And this thing will be a money loser. They cannot make the classics anymore.
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They cannot come up with new stories because they're determined that their feebleness shall be the
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standard of all things. Instead of going back and making great works in homage to the creative
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genius. Again, you look what they did with the Lord of the Rings running off with this woke franchise.
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And of course, who wants to watch that? The reason we like Tolkien's world is because it is deep.
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It is wide. It is metaphysically grounded. It is deeply spiritual. And it is grounded in traditional
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Catholic thinking. And this creates magnificence. What they create, it's so trite. It's so obvious.
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Like, oh, today I write this. Boring. And you see this all the time. They just, they can't leave
00:23:22.740
things alone. Even in the movies of the Lord of the Rings, the more they change the script,
00:23:27.500
especially in the Two Towers, the worse things got. They cheapened all the characters. The Ents were
00:23:33.960
turned into something selfish and frivolous from the magnificence of their decision
00:23:38.340
to attack Isengard knowing they won't be coming back to ducking the war and then blowing their
00:23:44.680
stacks. The last thing a Ent would ever do. And it's this extraordinary unwillingness to recognize
00:23:50.520
the greatness of the past and to realize that we need to live up to it. It doesn't need to live up
00:23:56.780
to us. And so, yeah, the one consolation is this thing will be a bomb. But if they made the real one
00:24:02.740
the right way, it would be a commercial hit. And they need to get back to doing that. And I'd be
00:24:08.380
happy to help them, especially if they pay me generously to write them a script, which will be
00:24:12.040
the actual original. It won't be changed. They could pay me a lot not to change things because they need
00:24:18.780
it. Yeah, they absolutely need it. Dr. John Robson, thank you so much for your time today. I was looking
00:24:25.000
forward to speaking with you all week. It's really a pleasure to be able to even to spend some time
00:24:29.880
virtually with you over subspace during the Christmas season. Thank you so much for your
00:24:33.680
time. Indeed. And Merry Christmas to you, to all of yours and to all your viewers. Likewise. Merry
00:24:39.260
Christmas. Once again, that is Dr. John Robson. You can go check out his work on YouTube. Go look up
00:24:46.200
the Climate Discussion Nexus. He has all sorts of really important topics there, including things like
00:24:52.460
carbon taxes, how much they truly cost us, not just monetarily immediately in your wallet,
00:24:59.240
but how much it's costing us in the ability to enjoy our lives, to heat our homes, to grow
00:25:05.940
nutritious food. He really is able to dive deep into history and apply it as a lesson for today.
00:25:13.840
And turns out that's what his degree is in, is in history. So go check out Dr. John Robson's work,
00:25:19.880
The Climate Discussion Nexus on YouTube. And hey, if you have not done so yet, please like this video
00:25:25.680
on YouTube, subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you can, head on over to Juno News and support
00:25:33.380
Juno News, because this is where you will find independent journalism. Merry Christmas and happy