00:00:00.000Well, you might forgive some liberals if they are starting to wonder if former conservative
00:00:10.320Michael Ma is more trouble than he's worth. Two dozen protesters upset with Ma greeted the
00:00:16.020Prime Minister's motorcade as he attended a fundraiser in Markham this week.
00:00:19.780You're such a coward. Coward, Mark. Coward. Coward. Coward. Coward. Coward. Now Ma crossed the floor to join the liberals last December and controversy has dogged him ever since. And some of it has rubbed off on Carney. This headline on the pages of the Globe and Mail, Carney attends fundraiser co-hosted by MP who cast doubt on Chinese human rights abuses.
00:00:49.780residents who voted conservative just a year ago, posted signs like these,
00:00:55.100calling Ma a traitor and demanding he resign.
00:00:59.020Ma landed in hot water after casting doubts on reports of slave labor camps
00:01:04.100and other humanitarian abuses in China.
00:01:07.420Prime Minister Carney was forced to address the matter. Let's listen.
00:01:10.200Mr. Ma has apologized for his comments and directly and unequivocally
00:01:17.540recognize the seriousness of the issue continues to be a member of our caucus and I'll continue to
00:01:24.500work with him including in the issue that you referenced in the second part of your question
00:01:31.040this is a government event though so I don't want to speak about party specific things around
00:01:35.940fundraising thank you our guest today is Brian Lilly longtime columnist with the Toronto Sun
00:01:40.980welcome Brian thanks for having me Mark we've been talking a little bit about Michael Ma who
00:01:45.520as you know, landed in hot water after casting doubts on reports of slave labor camps. He
00:01:51.340crossed the floor and drawing the ire of many people in his riding. I guess my question is,
00:01:59.200and I realize it's a numbers game with the liberals, but is Michael Ma more trouble than
00:02:03.260he's worth? If you're Mark Carney, probably not, because Michael Ma helps give you that majority
00:02:11.160that you want. And on April 13th, look, I think Mark Carney effectively has his majority already.
00:02:18.280He'll officially get it on April 13th with those by-elections. I think he's going to win all three.
00:02:25.620But without Michael Ma, it becomes a bit more difficult. So he'll have a two-seat majority
00:02:30.920if he wins all three on April 13th. And Michael Ma is part of that. What Ma said
00:02:39.860in relation to the issue of forced labor in China and insulting Margaret McQuaig-Johnson,
00:02:48.140a woman who, by the way, started her federal career as a public servant working in the
00:02:55.900Pierre Trudeau government, then worked for the Mulroney government, then worked for the
00:03:00.900Khrushchev government, the Martin government, the Harper government before retiring,
00:03:04.900and who is considered an expert in China, you know, he attacked her. There was no need to do
00:03:14.660that. But that shows the direction that the Carney government is going when it comes to China.
00:03:19.820They are going to be friends of China, even as the rest of the Western world kind of cast a
00:03:28.620John Desai. You know, I remember 10, 15 years ago being in Washington, D.C., and the consensus at
00:03:37.860that point was still China is a good and stable ally. And if we just keep trading with China,
00:03:44.240things are going to change in China. Things are going to be better in China. They will
00:03:49.200move towards democracy. They will not be as authoritarian. That hasn't happened. And you
00:03:55.820know what has happened is that in Washington, D.C. now, the bipartisan consensus is that China is a
00:04:05.700threat. It's not just Donald Trump saying this, it's the Democrats as well. Joe Biden was not a
00:04:11.820great friend of China. In Canada, we should be heading in that same direction, but the liberals
00:04:18.440have been so beholden to China for so long that they can't shake it off. And so they'll look at
00:04:25.500Michael Ma's comments and say, oh, well, so what? And to what degree is that going to undermine,
00:04:33.880further undermine our relationship with the Americans heading into those all-important
00:04:38.620negotiations for Kuzma? So one of the parts of Kuzma is that we have to stop shipment of goods
00:04:49.520that are produced with forced or slave labor, including child labor. Now, we have stopped over
00:04:56.900the last several years exactly two shipments. The Americans have stopped thousands. We're both
00:05:03.140trading with China to a great degree. Do you really think that there's only been two shipments
00:05:09.280of goods produced by forced or slave labor in China that have been sent to Canada? Or do you
00:05:17.020think you know maybe you say well the americans are being too vigilant and they're being too
00:05:22.220strong on this so it's not really thousands okay well it's at least hundreds and we've stopped too
00:05:30.220so we are not living up to our own uh commitments that we made as part of kuzma or usmca whatever
00:05:38.300you want to call it we're not living up to our own commitments on this they there are canadian
00:05:46.220industry leaders whether you're talking about steel automotive aluminum who are saying look
00:05:51.580start enforcing this because if you don't it hurts us they know that uh chinese steel coming in um
00:06:00.540under undercuts our market they know that chinese aluminum they know that
00:06:06.300even with chinese evs there are aluminum parts that are made using slave or forced labor that
00:06:14.380go into the supply chain on the automotive front. So Michael Ma can say what he wants. He can make
00:06:23.220his false apologies. He can say, oh, I was talking about a different place. I wasn't talking about
00:06:27.180that place. Nobody's going to believe that. But unfortunately, right now, Canadians seem to be
00:06:35.120in a forgiving mood with Mark Carney. And as long as he is standing up to Donald Trump and yelling
00:06:41.380about donald trump it doesn't matter what he does it doesn't matter if his actions are helpful
00:06:48.820if they are hurtful it doesn't matter if they bring about economic growth or economic decline
00:06:56.020what canadians want is someone who will stand up and yell about donald trump
00:07:02.420well yeah i mean unless the economic pain that you feel as a result of
00:07:07.460trade that doesn't happen starts to get i i don't i don't think people care about that mark
00:07:12.900or at least not the majority of people that will vote for the liberals and look i know we've all
00:07:18.820talked about this before that carney was elected by boomers who were retired living off their um
00:07:26.260investments in the s p 500 index fund which is based in the united states and living off
00:07:33.540tech stocks based in the United States. But, you know, recent polling would show that it goes
00:07:39.320deeper than that. It goes beyond that, that younger voters are also going towards that,
00:07:44.480not just people who are retired. So, you know, we have to get serious as a country. I'm not sure
00:07:52.140that we are. I think, you know, watch the Junos this past weekend. Watch the NDP conference this
00:07:58.200past weekend. You know, watch the fact that we just canceled the CEO of Air Canada because he
00:08:06.620gave a condolence message over two pilots dying and dozens of people being injured in a crash that
00:08:13.360wasn't the fault of his airline. And he's canceled because he didn't put out the message in English
00:08:20.100and French. We're not being a serious country here. Speaking of the NDP, Avi Lewis, of course,
00:08:27.080as you know, is the new leader of that party, and I have argued that he will, to some degree,
00:08:34.700reinvigorate the party, bring back, repatriate some of the votes that went over to the liberals
00:08:42.420a year ago. He's a firebrand. He's a good speaker. You can say what you want about his policies.
00:08:50.460In fact, as you know, some of the provincial New Democrats are not too thrilled with him.
00:08:57.080But I think he'll bring some of the people back.
00:08:59.320I guess the question is, you know, will the Conservatives benefit from the fact that some of those new Democrats go back home from whence they came, if in fact you think they will?
00:09:13.900Yeah, last election in Ontario, which is the ultimate battleground for federal politics, the federal NDP went below 5%.
00:09:24.680Now, that benefited the Conservatives in some ridings, like Windsor, Timmons, Hamilton, several areas where the NDP had been the incumbents, the Conservatives won.
00:09:36.960And so that helped the Conservatives to a degree. But in other ridings where the NDP could have won, would have won, would have been a solid second, they completely disappeared and went right into the Liberal fold. And so that hurt them.